It Can't Just Be Me - 35: Lover or Scammer? With Kelle Bryan and Becky Holmes

Episode Date: February 14, 2024

For this Valentine’s Day special , Anna is joined in the studio by actor, broadcaster and CEO Kelle Bryan, alongside author Becky Holmes to deep dive into romance scams and coercive relationships.With psychotherapist Fiona Kau, Anna and her guests share their personal experiences of scams and coercive relationships and tackle a dilemma from a listener who’s worried their colleague is caught up in a romance scam.You can find out more about fraud, including how to report it, via ActionFraud. You can find suggestions of where to go for emotional support following a scam on this Citizens Advice page. If you think you might be in a coercive relationship, you can call the National Domestic Abuse Helpline on 0808 2000 247. There are further resources on the Women’s Aid website.—Have questions about sex? Divorce? Motherhood? Menopause? Mental health? With no topic off limits, Anna’s here to prove that whatever you’re going through, it’s not just you.If you have a dilemma you’d like unpacked, visit itcantjustbeme.co.uk and record a voice note. Or tell Anna all about it in an email to [e-mail] podcast contains adult themes that may not be suitable for children. Listener caution is advised. Please note that advice given on this podcast is not intended to replace the input of a trained professional. If you’ve been affected by anything raised in this episode and want extra support, we encourage you to reach out to your general practitioner or an accredited professional.From Podimo & Mags CreativeProducers: Laura Williams and Christy Callaway-GaleEditor: Kim MilsomTheme music: Kit MilsomExecutive Producers for Podimo: Jake Chudnow and Matt WhiteExecutive Producer for Mags: Faith RussellFollow @itcantjustbemepod and @podimo_uk on Instagram and @itcantjustbemepod on TikTok for weekly updates. You can also watch the full episode on YouTube.This episode is brought to you by The Better Menopause. Visit www.thebettermenopause.com to find out more and use special code "ANNA" for 15% off.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We get it. Life gets busy. Luckily, with Peloton Tread, you can still get the challenging workouts you crave. Only have 10 minutes? Take a quick Peloton workout. Want to go all out? Chase down your goals with 20 to 45-minute Tread workouts. No matter your goals or time, Peloton has everything you need to become everything you want. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit onepeloton.ca. Hello, it's me, Anna. Now, before we begin, we do discuss coercive relationships,

and also we mention domestic violence in this episode. So please listen with care. Roses are red, violets are blue. Online romance scammers could be swindling you. It's Valentine's Day. And today we're tackling the thorny topic of romance scams and coercive relationships. If you're thinking, that could never happen to me, then think again. It's a lot more common than you may realise. Here to tell us why is Becky Holmes, author of a new book all about romance fraud. I'm also joined by actor, broadcaster and CEO Kelly Bryant, who's spoken publicly about her experience of being in a coercive relationship. Welcome to It Can't Just Be Me.

Hi Anna. Hey Anna. Hey Anna. Hi Anna. Hey Anna. Hi Anna. Be Me. Hi, Anna. Hey, Anna. Hey, Anna. Hi, Anna. Hey, Anna. Hi, Anna. Hi, Anna. Hi, Anna.

It can't just be me who's really struggling with staying faithful. I definitely got menopause brain. I really want children, and he doesn't. I had feelings of jealousy. It's just all around the middle. I feel like a Teletubby. And then I hated myself for feeling that way. If you've got any advice.

I would really appreciate any advice. It can't just be me. It can't just be me, right? Kelly, Becky, welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. I always like to start by asking my guests to share their very own It Can't Just Be Me dilemma. So, Kelly, you are up first. What have you got for us? It can't just be me that Googles Kelly, you are up first. What have you got for us? It can't just be me that Googles the person that you're going to meet.

Like for me, when I first met the children's dad, he said that he Googled me and he thought I was Alicia Dixon. So when we met via like online dating, so when he actually met me in person, he was like, oh, you're a disappointment oh imagine if he'd said that oh fuck well Alicia Dixon's gorgeous right so I was like well no it's just me so yeah I mean I know it's quite it's probably quite old school now but I do and that's not just relationships that's just people I feel like it's just common courtesy so that I the information is

available and usually nine times out of ten everybody knows more about me than I do about them right that's true so therefore so that I feel a bit more comfortable I'll go okay right done that is this lovely so at least I have something to add to the conversation that's fair enough and also I don't feel like I'm always on the back foot. Oh, that is clever. That's a really nice... So you do a deep dive into things like Facebook. I do sweep the social media. What did you last post?

What kind of poster are you? When did you last post? That's really interesting to know when a person last posted because they might just have an account but don't actually utilise it. And what does that say about them, Kelly? Well, it might be that I'm not really that fussed about social media which makes me feel quite comfortable see I have I have a a putrid relationship with social media I feel really torn about the whole thing we talk about this a lot actually on the show because it's so

toxic and we know that it's not good for you and yet at the same time you're kind of compelled to do especially if you are in our business yeah you have to do it mostly social media is done on an algorithm and so because I always hit stuff that's positive I just get positive stuff thrown at me all the time so people do say to me oh it's really negative it's really toxic I'm like just get really nice stuff and I get stuff that inspires me. So like people that maybe have really challenging lifestyles and they've overcome great things. So I'm like, well, if they can do it, I can now get my butt in the gym or whatever. I can be Alicia Dixon. So I can channel my Alicia Dixon. So yeah. That says so much about you, Kelly, that I'm kind of fascinated by that. And good for you,

though, that you're saying I do my basic research out of courtesy yeah towards people yeah so Becky your turn next what is your it can't just be me dilemma mine is actually a lot less interesting and I think it's gonna provoke no discussion at all so mine is it can't just be me that can find very few men attractive if they don't have massive sideburns. How big a sideburn are we talking? Well, not Gaz from Supergrass. Do you remember him? Yes, I do. Yeah, they weren't. That's not for me. We're talking Oliver Reed in Oliver.

Yes. All right. So a sort of 1970s sideburn. They make me go funny. Do they? Yeah. If a man walks past in the street with one. With one or two? I can generally only see one if he's walking past. True.

Well, I'm almost assuming he's got two. I find myself going a bit peculiar. Flutters is like peculiar or just like peculiar? No, it flutters. Do you? I'd love to unpack that. Do you know, I was just going to say, we also have with us today our trusty and regular psychotherapist, Fiona Cowell.

And I can just see her face, the deep analysis that's going on at the moment. What is that about, Fiona? If you're like a man with kind of like chunky sideburns. The first question that comes to my mind is who had sideburns when you were a little girl in your life? I think it's Oliver Reed. Do you know, when I was 17, a friend of mine broke up with her boyfriend and he was a very short term boyfriend. I'd never met him. And I walked into the pub just as it was happening and I turned round and he had this big pair of sideburns and I have never forgotten that moment where I thought

my god there you go there we go yeah printed in your subconscious mind from all those years ago and since then I'm like a woman possessed and you know like when we fall in love or when we have crashes when we're 17 they're so much more intense so maybe it's kind of like recreating that moment for you well I did have a big thing for Liam Gallagher when I was younger and I think he had a fair pair on him yeah he's had a chunky sideburn you see I'm I'm a bit ahead of you on that because when I was about eight or nine it was Starsky and Hutch so it was it was David Soul and um and Michael Glazer and yeah I mean there was definitely some lamb chops going on there yeah and I yeah I like a man with a chunky sideburn as well I mean we could do an entire show about this but Fiona are we normal yes of course

I think we can all have our little quirks now, girls, I do want to have a serious discussion today, you know, as well as the lols. And I want to start this show by emphasising the fact that romance scams and coercive relationships are more common than we think. In 2022, a survey found that two in five UK adults who dated someone they met online were asked for money. And according to City of London Police, victims lost nearly £93 million to romance fraud in that year alone. And that doesn't even take into account the emotional cost. It is massive.

And we're not really talking about it, I don't think. So let's start with the basics. Becky, what are we really talking about when we say romance scam? So romance scams, initially, I would have thought it was somebody pretending to be somebody else to get money. But I was pulled up on this sort of a couple of years ago, and actually quite rightly, in that romance fraud doesn't have to mean handing over money. It can be that when you're in a relationship with somebody who's pretending to be somebody else. I've got you. So it's not just about the financial side of it. It's the emotion. It's everything. The betrayal, the emotional side. It's just, it's pretense. Yeah. So I've spoken to victims who they've not given

any money. But so one lady I'm thinking of in particular, her perpetrator got off on the fact that he was living a double life and he was having sex with more than one woman. And he'd given her a completely fake name. So it is fraud. It's just non-financial. So you published your book. This is the most amazing title. Keanu Reeves is not in

love with you and you published it in January. It came off the back of your own experience, didn't it? I know it's a collection of other people's stories, but tell us how it came about. So I'm fortunate in that I haven't been a victim of romance fraud myself. However, I have been in an abusive relationship and I have given a lot of money to somebody. So fraudulent, it might not be. Horrible, greedy arsehole of an ex, it is. But the book came about because when I joined Twitter during lockdown, there were just immediately loads and loads of messages in my Twitter inbox saying, oh, you're so beautiful. You're so lovely. Hello, dear. Hello,

my darling. And I was thinking, oh, whatever, and just blocking and deleting. After a little while, I thought, right, okay, I'm bored. I'm going to interact with you. And I started coming up with the most nonsensical stuff I could to see what reaction it would get. And how far you could get with them. Exactly. Yeah. But they just stuck to a script. So I would tell them, oh, I don't know, I had bodies buried. I'd eaten my husband. There was a head in the oven, a wide variety of ridiculous stuff. And they just said, oh, that's lovely. Have you eaten your dinner? And I thought, this is amazing. So I was just doing this all the time, posting the responses up on Twitter. People were finding it really funny. So that was great. But in the meantime, lots of people started messaging me on Twitter saying,

I've actually been a victim of romance fraud. So I started listening to people's stories and realised how massive the subject is. And it's kind of culmin in god a hell of a lot of research what are some of the most shocking stories that you came across from these women and men we have to say it's not exclusively a female problem actually statistically it's 50 50 is it really yeah um interestingly though it's such a stereotype but unfortunately it's true so women tend to be lured in by the offer of romance, men are lured in by the offer of sex. So the book concentrates on women because I am one and because I didn't have enough time or word count to go into the men as well, but it's certainly worthy of further investigation. But in terms of the stories, I heard some really really horrible ones and I've heard from people

who've lost a thousand pounds and one lady lost 120,000 pounds and you know everywhere in between but there was one woman who was absolutely amazing she had stage four cancer and she reached out to me on social media and said you know nobody knows nobody knows about this. Can I talk to you about it? So we spoke on the phone and she said the only time that her son is going to know what's happened is when she dies and there's nothing in the will for him. So we arranged, I spoke to her and we said that we'll meet up so I could interview her properly for the book. And a few days later, I had a message from her account on Twitter and it's from her son saying mum's passed away but I've seen these messages between

you what on earth is going on so I had to ring him late on a Friday night and explain that she'd given her money to this man and aside from the fact that this wonderful woman passed away, one of the saddest things is that a lot of times people don't tell loved ones because they fear the reaction. And the shame of it. And the shame. But actually, this lady's son was incredible. Was he? Yeah. He said, my God, I would never have been angry with her. He said, I would have been, you know, furious with the bloke on the end of the internet, but I would never have been angry with her he said I would have been you know furious with the bloke on the end of the internet but I would never have been angry with my mum and it was just this horrible thing that

she never got to tell him and she died with this secret that is just that is heartbreaking yeah isn't it and again I'm going to touch on the shame and the stigma attached to this in a bit. But it is just so important, isn't it, to know that really nobody who loves you is going to judge you for being fooled by somebody. And that is just so heartbreaking that she was never able to tell her son. You know, he feels that his mum died without confiding something in him. So it was vile, absolutely vile. I mean, and he's such a lovely man. Well, Kelly, I am going to get involved with your story shortly. Just bear with us for a second. But Fiona, just tell us about the psychology of a scammer. What is going on in their minds? And is it the same as coercive control?

Yeah. So for romance scammers, so we kind of have three aspects, importance that the person thinks they're more important or they have more value than someone else. And then we also have to have that element of the willingness to manipulate people to do something unethical. And then sometimes, I mean, I think a bit on a spectrum, but we can also have the psychopathy, right? It's the lack of empathy. So kind of objectivizing people and kind of seeing them just as a means to get money. And in terms of, is it similar to coercive relationships? I think there are many elements that are similar, but I think for someone to actually commit fraud, I kind of feel like everything is almost a bit heightened of these elements that I just mentioned. In a coercive relationship, you might not find all

the elements that I just mentioned, but very often you have the trouble with narcissism. So they kind of mesh a little bit. So the romance, scamming and coercive relationships, there's a lot of similarity between the two, you would say? Yes, there's a lot. And I think one can kind of lead into the other. I think also a coercive relationship can then lead into being taken advantage of financially. I know that both of you, Kelly and Becky, have experienced coercive relationships before, which falls into the bracket of domestic abuse. And again, this is incredibly common. We know that one in five people, according to the National Centre for Domestic Violence, will experience domestic abuse in

their lifetime. Which again, that blows my mind, that statistics, because it is just so common. So Kelly, can you share your experience with us? What happened? So I was in my late teens. And when I look back on it, I know that I can identify where I was because my mum and dad were going through divorce. And I was in a band where I wasn't particularly connected to anybody. So therefore, I was actually vulnerable, but didn't see myself as such because I was just having such a great time. Met this chap. I actually was having such a great time, met this chap. I actually was warned about him. Oh, were you? Yeah. They just said, oh, you know, he's a wrong and I would, you know, stay clear of him. But it wasn't so much so that I felt like I took the warning seriously because they didn't sort of

sit me down and go, look, these are the facts, you know, this is the history, like you would for a mortgage. So are you now sure that you want to take this on? It wasn't put to me in that way. So for me, I got swept away in the romance side of it. He was hugely popular and charismatic, not necessarily my type in that way, but I just felt like, okay, this seems like a win if I embrace this relationship. So then within the relationship, it was, you know, pretty normal in the early days, but then the isolation started to creep in where he would sort of say, oh, you know, do we have to go over to your mom's? Can we not do this? You know, can we stay at home? I really just want it to be me and you.

Okay, so he was nice with it. Yeah, all nice with it. And then it does progress. And obviously this relationship spanned eight years. Wow. So it took a long time before I recognized any awkward or where the behavior was wrong. Remember, I'm isolated and vulnerable,

but not knowing it. So feeling like this is an arm around my shoulder. Oh, finally, I've got someone who's there for me. Oh, finally, I've got my Prince Charming. Oh, finally, I nailed the guy that everybody else wants. Oh, finally, I'm now safe, is how I felt. So therefore, all my walls came down and I was very relaxed and really comfortable within what I thought was a healthy, normal relationship where I'd found my Mr. Right. And presumably it just happens incrementally, doesn't it? Just little slow steps that you're not worried about. Oh, how about you give me a card because, you know, when you're away, you know, things are really tough for me at the moment.

You know, would you consider, oh yeah, no problem. I'll just put you on this card. Then eventually you know when you're away uh you know things are really tough for me at the moment you know would you consider oh yeah no problem I'll just put you on this card then eventually you give them the card and then you're not really thinking about it and then you know I banked with Coots at the time and they called me and they were like you need to come in and I was like okay you know a little bit confused because I wasn't particularly I was quite quite frugal. They were like, are you aware of this expenditure? And I was like, no. And they were like, it's on this card because they're separate numbers, thankfully. So you could clearly identify who was doing the spending.

And so I was like, oh, right. And what was it like? What kind of things? Oh, it was like £5,000 on a hotel hotel room and not even with you no no that is you know meals clothes you know spending on other people other women which I found out about eventually down the road and this is the other thing there was no language around that kind of behavior in those days. So you couldn't tag it to something. Now you can say, you know, it's a coercive relationship.

The language didn't exist at that time. My bank manager was like, you know, this is not normal. You know that this is criminal activity. Do you know that this is whatever? Yeah. And they were great. And I was like, no, I still didn't make sense to me. Then, you know, thankfully, my bank said, don't worry, just put it on us. We'll send a letter that says this has got to be stopped because of excess spending. So they protected me in that way. So I didn't have to take that whole, can you please stop spending my money kind of thing. Because at that point, I was really reliant on this person.

So what happened? I'm fully invested in this story. How did he react? Well, I think what we're skipping is over that eight years, people have come to me and gone, you do know he's cheating with whoever. You do know he's cheating with blah-de-blah. You do know he's, and I was like, oh, so I'm starting to get the picture, if that makes sense.

Okay, so he's not who I think he is. Okay, so he's not the person that I imagined he would be. But to begin with, you just don't want to believe, do you? And it's the shock and the betrayal and the fear and the anxiety of realising this isn't the person that I thought they were. this isn't the person that I thought they were. I mean, that is, your story is so horrific and I can identify with some of what you're saying. I think that there's a perception though, that this happens to gullible people and gullible women and inverted commas. I know it also includes men, but it's just not the case when it comes to victims, is it, Becky? So tell us a little bit more. Absolutely not. I spoke to 35, 40 romance fraud victims, and there's this idea that it's just

sad middle-aged women who can't get a bloke and they just sit on their sofa on a Friday night. I didn't meet anybody like that. One of the people that I've interviewed in the book is a UK detective who was a victim of a fraud. I spoke to a lawyer, a CEO, one lady had a PhD, you know, attractive, articulate, intelligent women at the top of their game. So what do you think is going on? Because we've all been victims of this. I mean, Fiona, I guess if I throw this to you, been victims of this. I mean, Fiona, I guess if I throw this to you, what is going on for us then? Because we're clearly three intelligent, successful women who have been fooled. What's going on with our cycle? Is it just a willingness to believe? Is it a willingness to want to be safe and secure and to be in love? What is it? I think, again, you know know the person who will scam you will kind of find out what it is about you and use that against you so for example if you only had trusting relationships this is a

very new behavior so what kind of won't be a red flag for you and then as kelly was saying it's it kind of slips in so smoothly and then they really build the trust so maybe in the beginning they will borrow some money and then they pay you back and then they really build the trust. So maybe in the beginning, they will borrow some money, and then they pay you back. And then they build their trust, right? And then the next time they will steal. So it's really hard. And then of course, emotions are in play as well. I mean, I had a situation with a guy who I very firmly considered to be a very good friend. And exactly as you were saying, Fiona, it started off with, oh, you know, my brother's in, I'm so worried about my brother, he's in real difficulty with his business, and it's really affecting me and his relationship, my mum, I'm really skinned to the moment, I just need to tide him over,

and yeah, lo and behold, slowly but surely, I started to lend him money, and do the, okay, you need to kind of obviously pay me back, I mean, he, in the end, took me for thousands before his flatmate rang me. A bit like you, Kelly, when somebody sort of says, you kind of need to be careful. But the betrayal of it all and just not realising, I don't know who you are. However, however, Becky, do you think we tend to victim blame? Oh, God, without a doubt. Absolutely. Even the language that we use around fraud. So this is something I feel really passionately about. We always say that somebody falls for a scam, but we never say somebody fell for a burglary or, you know, you don't walk down the street and fall for an assault. So we talk about scams and fraud as if we just walk into them. But that's not the case. It's

a crime that happens to you. And the fact that this language is so ingrained, I mean, sometimes when I'm talking, I come out with it. I say, oh, you know, and then I fell for this. And I think, no, it's so ingrained. And I think it sets a precedent that it's not as much of a crime as anything else. And how does the embarrassment and the shame of either having been scammed, basically, romance fraud or a coercive relationship, how does that affect the emotional recovery for victims, would you say? I think it's long lasting because it takes a lot of work to recover. Firstly, you have to forgive yourself and acknowledge that who you are is still

a good person, that you're not an idiot, you're not a fool, all of those things that you kind of convince yourself that you are, which I love your language around that. It's really about rebuilding who you are before the relationship and who you are after the relationship. So like a lot of people have said to me, you know, why don't you ever name him or put him in your book? You don't actually deserve that. Yeah, you don't deserve to be named. You don't deserve to be named.

Like, who are you to be named? So I think it's a lot of work that I had to do on myself and also then after that it's the relationships so I then went back to absolutely every single person that I had hurt as a consequence of that relationship I called them all I said can I come over I need to have a chat that included people like my mother and my father because I went back many times. I didn't just decide one day, oh, that's it. I'm going to leave. Like none of it was enough. And he was also physically abusive. So for me, I had to go, but I felt like as part of my healing

and moving forward, I had to go back and address those relationships because I put him before you. address those relationships because I put him before you. Okay, we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be back in a bit to share a listener dilemma. See you shortly. This episode of It Can't Just Be Me is supported in part by The Better Menopause. Now, you know we've talked about the menopause before on this show and we've got more episodes coming up. It's a topic that I'm fascinated by simply because I'm going through it. So I'm interested in the Better Menopause and the work they're doing around nutrition and gut health. Their first product is the Better Gut and it's a probiotic designed specifically for women in midlife struggling with common symptoms of the menopause. We're talking IBS, bloating, anxiety,

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order with the special code ANNA, all one word. That's www.thebettermenopause.com and code ANNA. We get it. Life gets busy. Luckily, with Peloton Tread, you can still get the challenging workouts you crave. Only have 10 minutes? Take a quick Peloton workout. Want to go all out? Chase down your goals with 20 to 45-minute Tread workouts. No matter your goals or time, Peloton has everything you need to become everything you want. Find your push.

Find your power. Peloton. Visit onepeloton.ca. Welcome back to It Can't Just Be Me. I'm here with Kelly Bryan, Becky Holmes, and psychotherapist Fiona Cao, and it's time for a dilemma. This one is from a listener who's worried about her middle-aged colleague at work and whether she might be caught up in a romance scam. Hi Anna, I've got a middle-aged colleague at work who lost her husband a few years ago. She was really struggling to move on so I suggested online dating just to help her out a little bit. So I helped her set up a profile

and it looked like she met someone that was really great but then she started sharing some really worrying things with me. He offered to help her with investing her savings and it looked like he was being quite pushy about it and saying things like he loved her after just two weeks and wanted to start looking at joint accounts and start their life together. Something just kind of feels really off to me. And I feel bad for encouraging her to get herself online because this guy seems really manipulative. If this really is a scam, this is going to really destroy her and massively impact her confidence.

Should I speak to her about it? Okay, we'll go. I mean, some obvious red flags. I'm just looking at Becky's face here. What are we saying? Scam, scam, scam. Yeah, it's all of the signs the declaring love

almost immediately the joint bank account there isn't a single part of me that thinks that that's a genuine relationship this is it I mean so many red flags ping up but then there's a bit of me that's like haven't we all been in a relationship where after a couple of weeks,

you go, oh my God, I'm so madly, I love you. But then do you say, I love you, let's have a joint bank account? No, that's true. I've not gone that. Yes, note to self. No, I've never done that. Kelly, what do you think? Is that just sounding just red flag central?

Well, when I was in that situation and somebody had spoken to me, it depends on how you speak to that person. So coming from a place of judgment is always going to bring up your walls. But coming from a place of openness and saying, look, I'm here at any point. My door is always open. You know, whether it's two o'clock in the morning, you are welcome to come. This is a safe space for you. However, if it's your decision to move forward, that's your choice. I'm still here for you, regardless of what you choose.

That's the kind of, for me, map or how I would navigate my way through that. One, she's middle-aged, so therefore she maybe has a little bit more sensibility. This may be not a, Therefore, she maybe has a little bit more sensibility. This may be not a, you know, teen whirlwind type thing, but she's obviously taken a long time to, you know, she's been through a bereavement. So therefore, again, maybe still a little bit vulnerable. Definitely.

So it's one of those places in life where, you know, time is the healer and to go into another relationship is, for me, a big jump. And I friend is being like go on get back on that horse you know but sometimes you need that time to grieve and really find you again. Fiona how worried would you be if this was your client and she was saying I've just met this guy you know I'm bereaved but I'm really happy to have met somebody but you know we're kind of really in love but but we're talking about joint finances. What would you be thinking? I think I would be so worried. And I think my anxiety would probably go through the roof because sometimes it's really hard.

You know, as therapists, we can point out things and sometimes I see them run into a wall, which can be really hard. It's really difficult, isn't it? I mean, Kelly Kelly did anybody any of your friends at the time I know you said that when you first met this guy they were like look you just need to be a little bit careful if he's a bit dodged but did anybody during your eight year relationship go darling are you okay mum had been there the whole time and was like I think she'd played the game where like at least I'm going to stay close because I feel like I need to. Okay. I'm going to keep an eye on you.

I'm going to keep an eye on this one. So she did that for as long as he would allow that to happen. That he would allow it. Yeah. That's because he's got the reins. So I was nothing but a puppet by that time. You've got to remember that coercive relationship means it's your whole life that then becomes around that

person. So, and you know, the consequences for me not doing as I was told were huge. It's that fear of that one person that you feel that you now have taking themselves away from you because they would go off for like a week and then not be around or take themselves away from you in other ways or give you the cold, silent treatment or physical violence. And that's the consequences for you not doing as you're told, you know what you're in for. Becky, you're nodding away. Yeah, it's really interesting because, and it's something that I've talked about quite often, this correlation between what victims of domestic abuse go through and romance fraud and the punishment of silence is a big thing. And now, obviously, if you're in

an online romance fraud situation, there's no physical violence. But online romance fraud is interesting in that if you don't send them money, for example, or you continue to speak to your mum when they've told you not to, they might go offline for two weeks and you are beside yourself wondering what's happened. Have they met somebody else? Have they been in an accident? When they come back online and they speak to you again,

people are often so grateful that they do then send money, you know, and they do then push away their friends and family like they were told to what is the psychology of this Fiona because I mean I'm sitting here and we're all kind of like nodding going yeah I think we've all experienced this to a greater or lesser degree and particularly the punishment of silence which is my particular bugbear I mean you know the silent thing the control of silence is so toxic. So what is going on psychologically? Well, we perceive it, as you're saying, as a punishment, right? It's a withdrawal of something. It's a withdrawal of attention,

a withdrawal of love. The silence really confronts us with us and then kind of sends us into our headspace. That we've done something, that we're bad. Exactly. We start analysing. And this is, I think, what most people find really difficult is bearing the thoughts that we have when we are on our own and we cannot resolve this. There's no offer of let's talk about this, let's work through this. So, okay, Kelly, I've got to ask you, eight years, right?

And I get it. At what point, I mean, you must have realised during those eight years, oh my God, this isn't right. But at what point were you able to get out? Because it takes longer, doesn't it, than you think it's going to? There was one weekend I went away on like a personal development weekend with my best friend. And it was a whole weekend. So you'd never came home for that whole weekend. And during that weekend, they were talking about making, you know, life decisions and setting goals. And I couldn't imagine my future in the way that they were describing. And I said to my best friend, I was like, no, I can't do this anymore. and I'd been back many times so therefore and this is

why I said you know please be open to that person if they want to talk to you because I don't think anyone would have believed me if I said oh I'm gonna leave they'd be like yeah for how long this time so it's those moments of lucidity that if when you're actually lucid enough to be able to take in new information, if you've got a window of lucidity and somebody says it at that point, and there's no outside influence from him, I was able to hear that information as truth and go, right, I identify that as me and I identify that I can do something about it. And when I went back, I changed the locks.

I knew when he was out, I changed the locks. I called his friend. I said, I'm packing all of his stuff. You have one hour to collect it. And I text and said, it's over. I've left all of your stuff. Blah de blah's coming to collect them. Have a nice life. something along those lines. And I was so scared because at that point,

I have isolated myself from anyone that can help, but I was strong enough and I waited and I knew what was going to happen. What happened? Did he really kick? He must have kicked off, jumped over the fence, tried to kick the door down called the police so it's then the torture of is he coming back tomorrow can I go outside can I leave my house can I go out with my friends so I I didn't I didn't do any of that for a very long time I cut off any joint friendships literally just went cold yeah that is I mean that's incredibly strong and boundaried. I mean, Becky, what happened to you? How did you get out of yours?

Mine was, I don't know, part of me sort of laughed at it, but he'd been so vile for so long and I'd left and come back and left and come back. And I walked in one day and he was being horrible to the dog. And I thought, right, that's it. It was as if I suddenly thought, that's a very unpleasant man and I'm sharing my life with this man. What on earth am I doing? And this is a weird question, but were there any moments moving forward where you missed him? but were there any moments moving forward where you missed him?

Yeah, which they say, don't they, looking at rose-tinted glasses. And I think it's the same when you have any breakup, really, even if it's a healthy breakup. You know, I'm divorced and it was a healthy divorce. And you look back on some of your relationship and you think, oh, that bit was lovely, that bit was lovely. And there are times even now when I look back on that horrible relationship, but I remember good times that we had. And although I don't miss his behaviour towards me, I would certainly miss the fact that he used to make me laugh sometimes, or, you know, that he used to kind of hold my hand to walk across the road,

silly things like that. And I'm fortunate enough to be in an incredible relationship now. So I no longer miss any of that. But for a long time, that's what I thought about. I can see Fiona nodding along here. What would you say about that, Fiona? Because it feels, I think it's difficult if you've been in a controlling relationship. You have to keep reminding yourself, don't you, that it was the behaviour, you've got keep reminding yourself don't you that it was the behavior you've got to remind yourself not to go back in a way absolutely and I can actually also personally relate to that I was also in an abusive relationship and I can really relate because I think if the relationship was all bad we wouldn't have stayed and you kind of grasp on to the good moments. And I think I would always describe the relationship as a roller coaster ride. And the highs were so high and the lows were so low.

But the highs is what made me stay. To all of the girls here, really, how did you recover from the betrayal and the turmoil? Kelly? Oh, that's a loaded question. Because I think I'm still recovering. I think that before I got married, I was determined to be a whole person again. So a happy person. And I had to love me and be proud of who I am.

So I had to do all of that work. And in terms of recovering, I guess it's really about you and what you want to achieve out of life and the person that you want to be. I wanted to be, I remember writing it down. I want to be a great mum. I want to be a great friend and I want to be a great daughter. And so I work hard at that. Becky, how did you recover? I went straight into another horrible relationship. Which can happen though, can't it? It can because there was a void and I was so desperate to fill that void

that I found it with another horrible man. However, once I came out of that one, I had a lot of therapy. And I mean, it was twice a week for a year. It was pretty intense. So once a week was group therapy, once a week was with your own therapist. And that changed my life. So it was all about firstly, forgiving yourself. it was all about firstly forgiving yourself. It went back so many years, you know, pre this, these relationships, what I thought was acceptable, but also dealing with my own emotions as well. So I would often prior to the therapy, I would sit and beat myself up about it. Why am I so stupid?

You know, friends had said to me, if he put you in hospital, you'd be better off because you'd just leave. And I was thinking, why didn't I register that? I've just gone from one to the other. What is the matter with me? But it was learning to think differently and to look at positives. And weirdly enough, then COVID happened. And this is so strange, but when COVID happened, my life started. It was so odd because I was on my own with a lot of time. I joined Twitter. That's when all of this started for me. I was, you know, time to do mindful things. So just jigsaws and stuff like that, that I'd had no time to think about. And actually, it was, psychologically, it was kind of the making of me. Oh, that's fascinating. And Fiona, how about you? How did you recover? So I think the first step that was so difficult for me was to leave and to stay away. So I also returned several times. And then at some point, I reached that point where I decided no contact for a year. And throughout that period, I had to entirely demonize him. I could only think of all the bad things to keep myself away because the good things were really good as well. And then similar to

Kelly, I think forgiving myself was the hardest part because similar to all these women you've been talking about, I was kind of like, I'm a smart woman. How did this happen to me? I would never have believed this could happen to me. Really seeing that forgiveness, you know, that really helped me. Can we give our listener one piece of advice for how she could help her colleague, Kelly? Yeah. So I would say, just say that you're there, regardless of what she decides to do, say that you're there. And so whether she decides to move forward with this relationship or not, that doesn't dictate the friendship that you have, that regardless of whatever she decides, you're there. And if she gives you the opportunity, then express your

opinion and your concerns. Becky, what would you say? It's very important for the person to feel that they're not going to be alone. I think also what I would say is if you do intend to broach it with your colleague, don't use an attacking way. So don't say, this is what I think is happening. I think you need to be looking at this. I would see it more as, you know, maybe sort of putting something down and saying, God, you know, I've read this, look at this. And maybe kind of a gentle approach like that. If somebody feels that they're being attacked, they're going to put up their defences. Fiona? I kind of want to say two things. So firstly, I want to congratulate

this listener for following her gut feeling and for watching out for her colleague. And also to add that it's not her responsibility that her colleague got caught up in this just because she encouraged her to go and do online dating. And secondly, I think naming it is very important, naming what she observes and how she feels about it and why, and maybe not present it as facts, but say, I have a feeling, you know, this might be happening. Do you think this could be happening? And then, yes, invite her colleague to come back

whenever she's ready to talk about it again. Finally, what should we all be looking out for? And if we think, hang on a minute, this is a bit dodgy, what should we do? It's really difficult because the romance side of things can kind of get in the way. And so, you know, if you were just talking about, I don't know, getting into business with somebody, I always use the reference earlier about, you know, if you were going to get into a mortgage, if you're going to buy your house, you would do due diligence. You would run a survey, you would maybe do a house buyers checker,

you would, you know, you would get an architect in, you would make sure you've done your due diligence before purchasing. And you kind of have to take the same approach with people. You know, sometimes your gut is clouded by your emotion. So just going back to basics, like I said earlier, do the Google check, check the social media, check the friends, check the associates before investing your heart is what I would say. I think watching out for that sense of urgency. If you find yourself very alarmed and kind of, you need to act very fast fast this is when you really have to say stop i'm going to take three breaths i'm going to reanalyze the situation and try and

understand what's going on and i think in the case of online romance fraud if you are approached by somebody there are some telltale careers that they will pretend to have. So good looking soldier, normally American working in Syria or Afghanistan. Been out with him. Yep, there you go. A doctor working abroad somewhere, war torn, somebody on an oil rig, celebrities. There are a number of careers that romance fraudsters flock to because it's very easy to tell somebody something that they don't understand. So, for example, I've got no idea how things work on an oil rig. If someone said to me, oh, you know, I need money for this, I'd think, oh, do you? I don't know. But in actual fact, nobody needs money on an oil rig. You know, in the army, nobody, you don't need to send anybody

money. Their housing is sorted, their food is sorted. There's these sort of various things. And as Fiona says, this urgency. So for example, somebody might tell you that they're widowed and they have a child being looked after by a nanny and the nanny is sick and they need to find an additional nanny and it's going to cost money. It's really, really important. If somebody approaches you, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, whatever it might be, even dating sites, put some of their images into a reverse image search. So you can do that via Google, you can do it via a program called TinEye. Now, if that image has been used, it will show you where that comes from. So if somebody tells you that they are a pilot called Mark, and they send you this,

but actually an image comes up from a British Airways brochure and it's actually Tim from Barnsley. Then you'll know that it's being used falsely and you can block, delete and report. Kelly, Becky, Fiona, thank you all for coming into the studio today and for being so brave, so open, so honest. And an extra thank you to Fiona, as always, for your psychological expertise and care. And finally, thank you for listening. We'll leave information in the show notes about where to get support if you're worried that you or someone you know might be caught up in a controlling relationship or romance scam. In the meantime, I'll be back next week with a new episode of It Can't Just Be Me. Please keep sending us your voice notes via itcantjustbeme.co.uk or you can email me at itcantjustbeme at polimo.com. And if you want

to see more of the show, remember you can find us on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube and Facebook. more of the show remember you can find us on instagram tiktok youtube and facebook just search for it can't just be me because whatever you're dealing with it really isn't just you from podimo and mags this has been it can't just be me hosted by me anna richardson the producers are laura williams and christy calloway-Gale. The editor is Kit Milson. The executive producers for Podimo are Jake Chudnow and Matt White. The executive producer for Mags is Faith Russell. Don't forget to follow the show or for early access to episodes and to listen ad-free, subscribe to Podimo UK on Apple Podcasts.

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