It Can't Just Be Me - 36: Can Porn be Ethical? With Megan Barton-Hanson and Ruby Rare

Episode Date: February 21, 2024

Nearly 14 million people watch porn every month in the UK alone. Yet, many people keep their relationship with porn under wraps – a secret between us and our screens.In this episode, Anna opens conversations about porn into the public sphere by having an honest and frank conversation about porn and the ethics behind its production. She’s joined by television personality, Megan Barton-Hanson, who made a name for herself on Love Island and is now one of the UK’s highest earners on Only Fans. And, she’s also joined by two friends of the show, sex educator and presenter, Ruby Rare, and psychotherapist Sam Pennells-Nkolo. Together they discuss the porn industry, and interrogate a dilemma from a male listener whose female partner doesn’t approve of him suggesting they watch porn together. Plus, they also offer advice to a mum of three teenage sons about how to handle tricky conversations around porn and consent. —Have questions about sex? Divorce? Motherhood? Menopause? Mental health? With no topic off limits, Anna’s here to prove that whatever you’re going through, it’s not just you.If you have a dilemma you’d like unpacked, visit itcantjustbeme.co.uk and record a voice note. Or tell Anna all about it in an email to [e-mail] podcast contains adult themes that may not be suitable for children. Listener caution is advised. Please note that advice given on this podcast is not intended to replace the input of a trained professional. If you’ve been affected by anything raised in this episode and want extra support, we encourage you to reach out to your general practitioner or an accredited professional.From Podimo & Mags CreativeProducers: Laura Williams and Christy Callaway-GaleEditor: Kim MilsomTheme music: Kit MilsomExecutive Producers for Podimo: Jake Chudnow and Matt WhiteExecutive Producer for Mags: Faith RussellFollow @itcantjustbemepod and @podimo_uk on Instagram and @itcantjustbemepod on TikTok for weekly updates. You can also watch the full episode on YouTube. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Porn, or as some experts refer to it, digital heroin, is something we tend to keep private, and we certainly rarely discuss it. It tends to be a dirty little secret between us and our screens. In just a few clicks, anyone can access explicit videos and enter their very own digital and sometimes dangerous fantasy. Well, today we're stepping away from the screen and taking our questions about porn into the public space because we are not afraid to talk about it. I'm joined today by celebrity and sex worker Megan Barton-Hansen, as well as sex educator Ruby Rare for an honest look at the role of porn. So here goes. Welcome to It Can't Just Be Me.

Hi, Anna. Hey, Anna. Hey, Anna. Hi, Anna. Hey, Anna. Hi, Anna. Hi, Anna. Hi, Anna.

It can't just be me who's really struggling with staying faithful. I definitely got menopause brain. I really want children and he doesn't. I had feelings of jealousy. It's just all around the middle. I feel like a Teletubby. And then I hated myself for feeling that way. If you've got any advice. I would really appreciate any advice. It can't just be me. It can't just be me, right? Megan, hello and welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. How are you? I'm good, thank you. It's lovely to see you. You're looking pink and glorious and beautiful.

Thank you so much. You're feeling good? Yeah, I'm feeling good. Excellent. And of course, a big welcome back to Ruby Rare and psychotherapist Sam Panels and Kolo. How are you both? I'm doing good. Yeah, I'm sad I didn't wear my GC today. We're going to come on to that in a second actually Ruby now listen you girls both Ruby and Sam you know how this goes you've shared your very own it can't just be me dilemmas in previous episodes and Ruby you did say that you were obsessed with your juicy tracksuit and I've even got it in the

script and you brought it up I like purposefully woke up this morning going like, I can't wear it or another one again because Anna will read me for it. And then I was like, Megan, we could have been matching. This is such a missed opportunity. But yeah. I have to say you are both matching anyway in your pink. Yeah, it's a similar vibe.

It was a pink day today, I was feeling. It's Wednesday. Wednesday we wear pink. Right. Love that. There we go. We're making it a whole thing we didn't get the memo Sam how are you I'm good thank you always a pleasure I

know it is it's always fun having you on so Megan these girls have done their very own it can't just be me before now so what have you got for us what's your dilemma okay so I used to be ashamed to say this but I feel like the issue isn't me, it's them. It can't just be me that can't get to a second date. I've tried and tried, but I just can't. What do you mean? I feel like the older I've got, either my standards have just got a lot higher or people are just, I don't know. Maybe there's too much dating apps going on.

Maybe there's too much toys. I don't know. But I can't seem to apps going on. Maybe there's too much toys. I don't know. But I can't seem to get to a second date and it is driving me crazy. So what actually happens on the first date? So we have a bit of like chat before we meet up, meet up. And they just, the things they discuss and want to talk about, whether it is because I'm like a sex worker, they feel like it's appropriate to speak about sex the first day.

I just feel like if that wasn't my job, would you be doing that? Oh, that's interesting. Or about like exes and how toxic their exes were. For me, that's a red flag. Or like looking at other girls in the bar and like, oh my God, how hot is she? Like, excuse me. Hello. Like I'm here. Aren't I supposed to be the focus of this at least first date at least give me that I was gonna say on date number one if your fella is checking out other girls in the bar while you're there that's a massive red flag right I feel as though you're just dating dicks I feel

like I am but I have no like type. I date both men and women. So I'm like, maybe I'm the problem here. Maybe I'm the common denominator here. Or perhaps the good thing is that maybe your standards are a bit higher. Which I like to tell myself. I won't lie. I'm like, maybe I've just grown and my boundaries are higher. My standards are higher and I'm not settling.

I don't need to settle. And are you having the same experience with the girls that you're dating then as well? Maybe less sexual conversation on the first date, but a lot like speaking about their exes and stuff. And I'm just like, this is a new chapter. Let's just discuss us, what we're into, our interests, getting to know each other. We don't need to know about the exes for now. We might not make it onto a second or third date at this point,

so I don't need to know your history with your exes for me personally interesting so Ruby can you identify with this yeah I can I think so many of us are feeling a lot of dating app fatigue right now because they're amazing tools but they've been around for a long time and I think that kind of abundance of choice changes our approach to when we're chatting to people and meeting them for the first time I'm sick of dating first dates feeling like a job interview yeah like just having conversations and feeling like is there common ground here is there some kind of like little sparky curiosity that's what you're trying to get you don't need to know absolutely everything about someone and so that's where it's like I don't I don't need to know your exes yeah I don't need to know anything

about your past in a really in-depth way let's just have a chat so exactly that like I just want to see if there's a little spark a little chemistry Christ I feel like I'm probably on a first date Sam I feel like I'm that person that would be going on about all of my exes and be really in depth and then just really really grilling you about your life I think I am that job interview person I like to approach a first date with a lot of mystery oh like I I think I'm a bit like a cape I don't smoke but like you know there's like an air of that going on but yeah I think I tend to be a little bit at a distance and then after a first date, then someone can see how much of a weird softie I am. You tease.

What a tease. What can I say? Well, I have to say, Megan, no, it can't just be you that can't get past the first date. I think that you just have really high standards and that's no bad thing. Oh, thank you. Now, look, today we're exploring the sticky topic of pornography. It's complex, it is divisive, it's out of control, it's exploitative, but we know it's not going anywhere and some might say it's also entirely necessary. So we've all seen it, we may use it,

and each of us has a very personal view in it around this table. So Megan, let's start with you because we know you have a huge following both as a celebrity and also as a sex worker. And you describe yourself as a sex worker. So for those people listening who are curious to know more about what that actually means, what is it exactly that you do? For me, I identify as a sex worker just because I felt so much shame around being a stripper. I was originally a glamour model. Then that moved on to stripping and dancing. And I felt like people had such judgment that for me, it's empowering to use the term sex worker because a lot of people associate sex work with escorting or prostitution but it's a whole umbrella yeah that covers all different things from only fans glam modeling back in the day page three i would count that as sex work really so yeah i identify as a sex worker and there has been a

lot of judgment especially being on such a big show like love island i thought i was prepared for the backlash, but really I wasn't when I came out and saw some of the headlines. It's crazy. So talk to me a little bit more about Love Island, because it's huge. It's obviously a massive show, and it totally catapulted you into the spotlight.

Yeah. Did everybody know when you went on to the show that, yeah, I'm a sex worker? So I really had that approach of just owning it I feel like if you own what's true to you and your authentic self people can't really use it against you or it's kind of like water off a duck's back because I own what I'm doing I'm happy with what I'm doing so I remember my first conversation with all people was Dr Alex and then he was like all right I'm a doctor what do you do and I was like in my head I was like do I say a model do I say glamour model do I say I'm a stripper I was like no just own it like

I'm proud and I've made such good memories such good friends in the sex work industry that I just blurted out so what do you do now as a sex worker because you're not stripping you're not in the clubs what do you do no but I won't lie I do miss it sometimes I get this weird urge I'm like should I just do like one night only like go to a random strip club I do miss it like the whole community of like sisterhood and girls so I do miss it but right now I just do like only fans and explain with the only fans thing for people that don't know what only fans is what is it and what what do you do on it it's a subscription site so it's basically like an instagram but rather than going on someone's feed and seeing their whole grid post you'll have to pay a subscription of I don't know like maybe anything up to 30 a month it's basically just

like a glamorous instagram it's just bikini pictures underwear pictures nothing really explicit and then if you want more I'll send like a pay-per-view and you have to open for extra money and that would be like a topless picture or a foot picture a foot picture do you do a lot of foot pictures it's huge it's huge I didn't realize until I got into the whole like adult like sex work industry that feet were such a big thing for people like guys especially I'm like who cares as much about feet note to self I'm thinking this could be a whole new income stream for mature feet do you ever go any further in terms of people dming you going I don't know I want to see you using a vibrator or masturbating whatever are you up for that you're like well okay if you're going to pay me for it yeah I will no previously before Love Island I did do webcam so I'll do

more things like that but obviously being on tv I'm still like enjoying doing things with certain tv channels and I don't want to go back and ruin that and sadly it is still very judgmental so for that reason I wouldn't go back to doing that level of nudity interesting you don't have to answer this question but I am really interested in this presumably part of the reason that you do it is because it's lucrative right of course yeah that's the whole reason I got into dancing in the first situation I was working in a law firm really wasn't enjoying it I was struggling struggling to pay rent and stuff. And I was like, why not?

I love being glamorous. I love dressing up. I love dancing. Why would I not go and try it? Even though I do dance like I did at a disco. Luckily, they gave me the job. People will obviously pay for that. Am I right?

If the headlines are to be believed, then you recently hit your million, didn't you? Your million pounds through OnlyFans. You don't have to answer, but I am genuinely intrigued. I'm like, fucking hell. It's lucrative for sure. Compared to any other job I've had, more than TV, more than influencing, it is a really good sustainable income. But I feel like I'm not trying to pitch that to girls to do.

Do you know what I mean okay that's interesting because you've said before that you find sex work empowering as a woman so tell us more why is it empowering I feel like for me I always grew up I wasn't super academic and I tried my hardest I could with like the GCSEs I got to get a well-paying job I just didn't enjoy it and I thought really if I break this down like who am I doing this for for society for friends because I'm scared of judgment when I can go out and have more hours to myself during the day work my own hours be my own boss why am I not doing that because I'm scared of what society would say but at the same time saying that I think you've got to be super resilient

because even though I thought I was resilient because I had been bullied at school, I was like, I'm used to it, even if someone's got something to say, it's fine. It is hard. I was so naive. At 19, I walked into a strip club, asked for a job, and I just assumed it would be all older guys so no-one would ever discover I worked there.

Within a week, people from my school turned up coming into the strip club literally paying to get an entry just to laugh at me working and I was like it's not the easiest job there will be a lot of backlash even in this current climate where OnlyFans is deemed as kind of like trendy or more socially acceptable it's hard so you've got to really weigh up your options and think, is it for you? Do you want to do this? And do you feel empowered? After I've done a shoot, I feel on top of the world.

I look back at them pictures and I'm like, oh my God, I'm hot. I'm making money. I'm loving life. So I think if you've got that aspect to it, do it. But if it's solely for the money, you've really got to think about it. Let's talk just about pornography for a second back in the day would you did you do pornography shoots no I would never do that and I think the reason why is because the only porn I saw back then was really for the male gaze all evolved around the male pleasure and not so much on the women

I think even being that naive and only having a few sexual experiences myself I could see as a young girl that that wasn't healthy the women didn't seem like they were actually enjoying it so for that reason I never I'd done like I said like webcam but that was just me on my own so ruby if i can just bring you in what is your view on porn in your opinion is it exploitative or can it ever be ethical i mean we all have a really specific relationship to porn whether you are someone who watches it or doesn't it really impacts the way that we view the world and we need to give a bit more space to it and I don't have a clear-cut answer for you I sit more on the side of being pro-porn as an expression of sexuality porn is not something new like there are erotic cave paintings like we've

for as long as we've been around and have been kind of communicating or making art something pornographic has been in existence and porn that we consume tends to kind of follow technology so like when the printing press became this like newfangled tech in the 18th century that was a big increase in the way that porn was circulated because suddenly people were writing this really erotic smut which is really funny to read if ever you want to like if you're a history nerd like me and nowadays obviously it's so dependent on online spaces which makes it really complicated like porn as a way that we can experience sexuality I am pretty much all for within that of course there is exploitation particularly I think

like really some problematic roles in terms of gender and race as well they're the two that I see and notice the most and I think we're very focused on the gender aspect not so much around like racial stereotyping but the really like extreme end where people are being exploited isn't porn that is a form of sexual abuse and I really think it's important to distinguish that as something separate like it's not part of a regulated industry. So just tell me then what is ethical porn or feminist porn? So ethical porn is a phrase that listeners might have heard more recently. I think in the last couple of years, it's definitely been a bit more of a buzzword. And to me, ethical porn is around the ethics behind the scenes. So how the porn is made,

making sure people are getting paid properly for their time, making sure that consent is being spoken about explicitly, that people have opt out options at every stage, that they can really control what they make if they're performers and that there's no pressure to be in that environment. What's interesting is probably the way that lots of listeners have heard ethical porn is about what it looks like. like. So ethical porn or feminist porn, we tend to think of it being a bit softer. So not as hardcore or explicit, a bit more like rose petals scattered on the bed, like porn for women. And if that's your thing, then great. But actually, I think most people enjoy watching porn because there is an explicitness to it. Lots of the women I speak to actually don't enjoy that softer stuff they are into something that's a little bit more hardcore and a bit filthier and I want that to be okay I don't want in us making porn more ethical for us to sanitize our desires that is very interesting

I mean Sam is that your experience in the therapy room a is porn being discussed but b what is that about the fact that actually women and i can identify with that ruby that actually you're watching porn because maybe you do want it to be not sanitized so what's that about sam i think it's really interesting that most of my male clients will not say anything about sex porn masturbation unless it somehow comes around and then they'll say to me am i allowed to say this it's like well this is the point if you're not saying it here I don't know where you're going to say it and then women will talk to me about it in the same vein they'll be like it's about a choice I want to choose what I watch what I'm interested in what I like what I don't like what

I don't want is for assumptions to be made when I'm then having sexual experiences about what I would like so I think they're two different things. So you mean, presumably, rough sex, slapping, choking, all that kind of, you know, stuff. Yeah, so women will say, I might want to watch that. Doesn't mean that's necessarily something that I want to experience. I want that to be done to me. I think it's interesting there's been a wave where women are so much more open.

They want to talk about it. They want it to be explicit. They want their voice to be heard. Because I think, historically, it hasn't want their voice to be heard because I think historically it hasn't been it's so systemic that I think again porn sex is put in this little sort of bubble that doesn't exist in our real lives and we've got to contextualize it to make it make sense as our whole lived experience rather than this thing that's in the corner that we don't really talk about exactly and on that note we know that this is extraordinary

this stat in 2018 Pornhub which is an online platform witnessed over 5.8 billion hours of content consumption that's nearly 665 centuries of material viewed on a single platform in just one year. That's crazy. My brain's melted. I can't compute that number. Centuries. I know. Centuries of porn.

I couldn't even read that number when it was first on the script. So we also know that roughly a third of UK adults look at porn online every month, and that's nearly 14 million people. Clearly, we need it. We need it. So one of those 14 million shared the following dilemma with us. He's found that his opinion about porn doesn't quite align with those of his female partner. Hi, Anna. Hope you might be able to help with this one. I enjoy porn on my own and I used to watch porn with my ex-girlfriend in the past. I mentioned this to my current girlfriend and she took it really badly. She said she hates the idea of me being a thing with my ex and even more so that she thinks porn is emotionally cheating and it objectifies women. My argument is that it's just

a fantasy and I would never cheat on her. So what's the big deal? What do you think? We're all sitting here, aren't we, going, hmm, nodding and stroking chins. Megan, you wrote a column for Vice on how to watch porn in a healthy way, which I read, really enjoyed it. What's your immediate response to this dilemma? I feel like the biggest thing is communication here like I think maybe in her head the fact that he's already said oh I've done it with my ex there's a level of like competitiveness or jealousy because I know I would feel that way so is there a way of watching porn in a healthy way I believe so yeah like if you're into it and

there's a fantasy that you want to like recreate and you've seen it in porn or there's something that really turns you on that you watch privately and you want to bring that into the bedroom with your partner I would just have that conversation and be like this is really turning me on like watch this with me what do you think what are your thoughts should we recreate this have you ever had that situation though where you've kind of gone I quite like this kind of thing and then your partner's gone what the hell what is that do you know what I mean when you're like oh I wish I'd never mentioned it have you ever had that no I think it's interesting I really like to pick

like people's brains and see what they're into like maybe it's not personally for me but I guess like I'm one of these people that will try everything once I think there's no point being judgmental unless you've tried it unless you've tried it I get that I these people that will try everything once. I think there's no point being judgmental unless you've tried it. Unless you've tried it. I get that. I totally get that. Ruby, what do you think is going on here in this dilemma? I mean, so much of what you're saying, I think is bang on that it's the way that it was maybe communicated.

So it's a learning process for next time or if he's kind of wanting to talk about future like kinks little cheeky spicy things that you might want to try the main thing coming up here for me is that a lot of the time in partnered relationships it's really easy for our sexualities to just merge with the person that we're with and to lose sight of the fact that our sexuality is an individual thing because I've spoken to loads of people before who've thought of this kind of like someone masturbating or someone watching porn as taking away from them or a reflection on the sex and the romance in the relationship and I'd really would love us to approach sex as something that we can do on our own and we can do with other

people. We're allowed to have some privacy in our sexual selves. Just because we're in a relationship doesn't mean we have to share absolutely everything. Do you know that's so important, isn't it? Because you're right to say that we can enjoy porn and our own fantasies on our own and we have a sexual relationship with ourselves and it doesn't always have to be with your other half I think that's a really good point Sam you've been nodding sagely all the way through um what are your thoughts about this dilemma I think if we put it again if we put this into okay I used to go running with my ex-girlfriend I used to go to this shop with my ex-girlfriend I used it's about intimacy it's about okay I used to do this thing obviously there's a sexual layer to it but nobody wants that no one wants to feel like they're being

usurped I think comparing it with other things in life can be helpful and how do we have that conversation to say okay this make what makes me feel uncomfortable about this is this and to kind of find a middle ground and I agree you don, you know, your own sexual experience can be your own that doesn't take away from the relationship. And I would like to define and drill down the language of, okay, what does emotional cheating mean? What does that actually look like? And everyone has their own definition of that. What is cheating? Cheating is not a universal thing. Infidelity is something that is specific to each relationship. So infidelity is the crossing of the boundaries that have been put in place. And those boundaries look different from relationship to relationship.

So it's really hard to accuse cheating when you've not had the conversation to clarify what your specific relationship looks like. to clarify what your specific relationship looks like. So effectively, you're saying in terms of this dilemma, what does cheating look like to the both of you within this relationship? And often you can get into really sticky situations and really hurtful situations if you've not clarified what the parameters of that relationship means to both of you. Because if these two people are coming from the assumption of one of them saying, oh, well, watching porn's fine. That's just part of my life and it doesn't have a reflection on our relationship but the other person has a really deep kind of discomfort or fear around their partner watching porn if you don't know that about each other

you can see how the hurt and the sort of feelings of maybe betrayal or mistrust come up really easily when this kind of stuff comes out. But then there's the other question of her saying, well, it objectifies women. And what worries her about that, because porn does objectify women. So she does have a point. What do you think about this girls i do think because porn is seen as such a taboo topic which we don't discuss enough i think people have in their head like a misconception of all porn recently there's been so many producers of porn which are women who have been in the sex work industry themselves and then gone on to make films and it's all about same-sex relationships body diversity and just

more female pleasure which we hadn't seen for so long so I think maybe because porn isn't openly discussed her perception of porn is very old school it's not how it is now yes and no though because if I went onto my phone say and I wanted to look up porn videos, there's just a sea of, in a sense, quite troubling pornography, I would say. So even if you can access those directors who are doing it from a female gaze point of view, it's lost in the sea of all the other crap out there but I think that's a that's something where if you're someone who doesn't have a kind of personal relationship with porn the fear of the unknown there is massive and I think what this dilemma needs is a bit of reassurance of just getting rid of a bit of that fear the analogy I use and I've used in classrooms is like how different is the abundance of porn on a site like Pornhub or Xhamster compared to

TikTok and the way that we consume other forms of entertainment our brains are being scrambled by the internet in many ways and porn is one of those areas but it's a shame that that's always the one that we go to to to get ourselves like whipped up in a frenzy you're right you are absolutely right that our consumption anyway of social media screen time that you know we're focusing just on porn when actually there's a plethora of other things scrambling our brains but do you think that porn is addictive and if so why big questions it's like a no level let's go to the psychotherapist please we're all looking to sam it's interesting because it's equally as addictive as anything else could be drinking food overeating under eating screen time like addiction isn't about the the thing it's underneath

it why am i doing this why am I drinking 10 bottles of wine? Why am I watching so much porn? What's the pull for me? The content, in a way, is arguable. OK, we can look at that, but what's underneath it, I think, is more important. But yes, it's as addictive as anything else could be. And can pornography damage relationships? Megan, what do you think?

I think if it's taken over and you'd rather watch porn than be intimate with your partner, then I think that's like a red flag, something that's not right there. But I think it can be used to spice up relationships. I get bored sometimes of having the same repetitive sex. I'm like, let's watch some porn together, get some inspo. I think it can be used in a healthy way and again going back to the listeners girlfriends like worry about porn for me personally especially since I started dating women I used to like search for like lesbian porn and I remember looking and being like I've slept with girls this is not real life this is not what we do like what on earth's happening

and then from that I've um discovered verified amateurs and that's people like content creators like myself who use OnlyFans and it'll be genuine lesbian couples or heterosexual couples that post their own videos online and they get paid from that so that's like I feel the most ethical porn there's no producer there's no set it's literally like a couple in a relationship filming it at home so I think if you watch that sort of porn, then it won't get to a point of being like, oh, should we watch porn or have sex? So Ruby, I was going to say,

are there any porn sites that are getting it right when it comes to sort of better representation? Do you want me to just do my list? Yeah, go on. What's on the top of my head? Just to flag as well, this is a Goldilocks situation. We've all got to go out and find the things that are right for us like it's all personal preference lustery is a really good one for kind of like real life couples and individuals i love that site and then others off

the top of my head get cheeks is great four chambered hearts i love really kind of weird art housey porn not for everyone very much for me um royal fetish films is really beautiful pink label fetish that feels like it's something to do with the windsor family oh no no it's like it's really beautifully made like kink and fetish content and they are shit hot on on kind of the ethics behind the scenes. And final plug, audio porn in lots of different forms and ways. Audio porn creates a really intimate fantasy. Your mind's allowed to wander a little bit. It's permission to kind of slip further into it

and escape and enjoy the fantasy. What audio porn sites would you recommend? Literotica is an old school one. They do like written porn and audio porn but lots of kind of diy homemade content and then there's dipsy get cheeks has got really good audio porn as well links in the show notes um each of you what's your one piece of advice for this listener Megan I'm gonna start with you I think communication is key maybe not just before you're about to get intimate but just when you're chilling just like try and open up the conversation to being like I know you said

you're not really into watching porn but have you heard about this kind of type of porn? Like we said, I didn't even know about audio porn. That could be a good place to start. Do you know what I mean? If she's not really into watching visual porn, that could be a great place to start. So just try and introduce it in a gentle, nice way. Ruby, I think we're all completely thrown by the audio porn.

This is very exciting. I'll hook you all up. I'll send you links. That's something for my drive at the M1. Oh, watch it now if you're behind the wheel. What's your advice for the listener? I'm just going to go back to reassurance. There's lots of complicated things to talk about here but if you're if you're approaching them with wanting to hear where your girlfriend's coming from and wanting to reassure the fears that might come up I think you're going

to end up in a better place it sounds like you're coming from quite different perspectives so there'll need to be some compromise on both ends potentially but you've got to you've got to approach it with kindness Sam I mean I would agree with all of the above but I would still be looking for the underneath it why is this an issue to begin with because often the subject point the content it's never really about that so if we're feeling underconfident or not reassured that's about the whole relationship it's not just about okay you do this and I feel this it's what goes on during the day we call it the hidden curriculum what do I see all the time it's

not what you tell me it's not what I say to you it's all the other stuff that's what really impacts our worries our fears it's not this one thing so I'd be looking at it holistically and saying well what's actually the issue with this what's the problem do you feel disconnected with me and when I do this there's a fear that I'm going to what? So I think it's always looking for the underneath. And often we don't know because we don't ask ourselves those questions. Okay, thank you. We've also received a dilemma from someone who has her hands full with three teenage sons. She's written in asking for advice on how to ensure her sons are properly educated when it comes to pornography and respectful sex. Here goes.

Hi, Anna. I've got three boys and I worry about how best to support them through the tricky teenage years where hormones are raging and there's a lot of pressure around sex. My oldest is 17 and he finds it hard to be vulnerable and honest with me even though I'm pretty sure he is sexually active and definitely watches porn. I think it's because I shied away from the conversation with him when he was growing up. I know there's a lot they won't want to tell their mum as they experiment, but how do I make sure they're respectful when it comes to sex, and even when it comes to porn consumption?

Should I approach them about it and make sure they're watching porn that isn't offensive to women? Any advice would be helpful, as I think me not doing anything is the worst thing. Okay, Sam, I know you have two young boys. I do. But is this something you worry about when it comes to kids and their exposure to porn? I mean, I think this is very complicated. And I think when they're little, it's, you know, it's just not appropriate, just like we wouldn't want them to watch a horror film or an action film. Their brains are not ready. If you teach your children, generally, we respect people. We're kind to people.

It's our value systems. All of that, I think by the time they get to 17, 18, 15, when they start watching things, and unfortunately, we have to give them a level of autonomy of okay I've given you all these tools I've equipped you with these things that I hope mean that you can make judgments about this but we know that that kids are accessing porn from about the age of 11 onwards which is extraordinary so even if you have parented your children incredibly well that access to pornography which we know unless you're able to access more respectful, if you like, sites or ethical porn, it is going to mess with their heads, surely. No, I agree. I think it does. And I think an explicit conversation needs to be had. I think having an open conversation and just laying it all out there. They may not want to hear it. They may be quiet. They may not say anything, but it sits you've had that conversation you have an open talk you're honest about it if you're honest about it you're teaching them and showing them okay when you're ready if you choose to you can be honest with me if you want or somebody else but I think you know age 11 that's intense so it needs to be

handled with care and it needs to be said I think. Girls what do you think how can parents encourage honesty and vulnerability in teenage boys when it comes to sex? Ruby? Parents are rightly very protective of their children and also sometimes a little hopeful that they are not experiencing something yet so I'll go into a school and talk about like bringing up porn or online safety in a lesson and some resistance might be from parents being like oh my kid's not doing that my kid's not looking at that and just because your child might not be it doesn't mean they're not in an environment where that can come up and we've got to look at this head-on and approach it and it's about parents it's about schools it's about all of the people in children and young people's lives having this is complicated and it's and like it's not about

having to get it completely right it's about giving it a go and once your children are teenagers and have a bit of that autonomy inviting them in not just to have a conversation but to collaborate on that conversation as well to go hey I'm scared about this I don't know exactly how to approach this these are my fears of what watching porn might do for someone your age it's always good to kind of use broad language like that rather than saying for you uh that's quite intimidating. And invite them to share some of those fears if they want to, or some of the things that people their age might be up to. But just keeping it going as a conversation and getting yourself used to having those conversations, because that's the biggest thing. If it's so like alien to someone, then it's really understandable to just put your head in

the sand. And I want to get all the heads out of the sand Megan do you think that porn can ever be a useful tool for teens to learn about sex or is it just too uncensored and therefore unrealistic and therefore potentially dangerous yeah I think that's why I've tried to use my platform so much to really be a voice on sex positivity and things like that because growing up I don't know 16 I didn't know where to look for advice on sex it's too awkward to ask my mum or my parents so I would literally be like oh let me just look on porn so I think that's the best thing for parents to do like not that I'm a mum but if I did have kids especially now with social media the way people are sending videos around on phones and stuff,

I think it can be so dangerous because they're not going to be sending a cute, romantic, loving, kind of born-round to school, I imagine. It's going to be like something really extreme with shock value. And I think the main thing is to say to young girls and boys is this isn't a true representation of a loving sexual relationship of course some people are into the more extreme choking spanking whatever but generally that's not what couples loving couples do and if you do do that you need consent so I think we just need to

get that across and I get that it's awkward but maybe if you just like you said don't say it's directly about you and the parent just be like oh my friends who've got kids your age apparently videos have been going around you do realize what's going on in these videos isn't a normal relationship like sexual behavior that's what I would do personally it's not that my mum so do you think that this is the point then that maybe a parent might point their kids towards ethical porn sites I get where you're coming from and like I think there are merits to that in some instances but overall legally for someone over 18 to show or recommend porn to someone under 18 big illegal red flag as a parent you wouldn't even say look if you're

going to be watching this kids at least go to a site that is ethical i don't know i mean sharing things and like leaving things around the house like a sex ed kind of book that someone can pick up if they want to but there's no pressure you're not like making someone read anything that could be a nice way of going about it or if there are kind of youtubers or people online who do sex education and as a parent it's really important to do your research and make sure that these are people who are kind of qualified in some way it's not just someone like spouting their opinions which like could be very subjective that i think can be a nice thing and especially maybe if it's someone a teenager who's a bit younger of being like, let's, should we watch this together? If someone

explaining this anatomy or explaining this thing around gender, if that's a conversation that's coming up. So for parents, what we're saying is potentially leave some materials, a book lying around on sex education or point them towards an authoritative voice in terms of sex education online or just have the open honest conversation with your kids and in gender trust and if someone if if a young person comes to you right if your child comes to you with a question and you don't know the answer that's okay you're not you're allowed to not know the answer but brook is a wonderful um sexual health charity for young people it It's where I used to work. But their website's great. And so saying, OK, I don't know that, but let's go on to the Brooke website together

and see if we can figure that out ourselves. Because it's not just the information that we're giving to young people. It's the way we're doing it. If we're approaching these conversations with maybe a bit of awkwardness and laughter, but without shame, without without embarrassment without shutting down the conversation that is a huge learning moment that it's okay to have questions about this you're so right to say that the shame and the embarrassment has to be totally shut down doesn't it in terms of the parenting and having the conversation with your kids i mean sam do you think that's the case

i think again it's systemic i think that's the case? I think, again, it's systemic. I think that's about everything. So if you're generally open with your children, they're generally open with you, you're more likely to get that response when we're talking about sex, porn, babies, all of that sort of stuff. I think we hyper focus as we do with every sort of subject and say, well, in this instance, we do this. But actually, if you look at the whole system, what's it like generally? I think that's the key to look at everything and go, well, OK, is my child generally closed off? Why are they closed off? I think it's about trying to broadly open ourselves up. I think it makes a big difference when it comes to very uncomfortable topics for adults, let alone for young people. for adults, let alone for young people. So each of you then, what is your one piece of advice for this listener when it comes to educating her teenage boys? What would you say?

I'd say get in the habit of having conversations that can feel uncomfortable and and share that discomfort with your kids and and also you need to be open to have a bit of this chat but if there are other trusted adults in their life that you think they could also benefit from having conversations with it doesn't have to just be you you're not alone in this but I really love that you've ended your question going I've got to do something Megan what would you say to this listener I just think the main key message is to just let young guys know that what they see in porn isn't an accurate representation of a loving couple and how you would go on to have sex for the first time with your girlfriend and also I feel like if you are awkward about

this kind of topic of conversation, for me personally, whenever I have any awkward conversations with friends or whoever, I'm like, should we just go for a drive and tactically drop it in on the drive? Because then you're looking straightforward. You don't have to make eye contact. It can be fine. I feel like you can speak more freely when you're not looking directly at each other. Sam, one final thought on this what would you advise if she was your client? I would probably talk to her about consent as well and I think we've touched on it but I think drilling down there okay if someone doesn't want to do something we don't do it if you don't want to do something you don't do it.

And finally Megan I've got to ask you this question, really. Do you see yourself staying part of the sex industry long term or have you got other ambitions? No, I think for me, I got into it at such a young age at 19 and I'm turning 30 this year. So that's a long time where my whole career and focus has been making money is dependent on my aesthetic, how I look. I'm going to wait till I'm at 35. I say that as a ballpark, but like as soon as I stop enjoying it and it becomes a chore and I think, I don't enjoy shooting anymore

or I don't know, my priorities change. But I think you definitely have to go into the industry with that mindset of a get out strategy because that money isn't going to last forever. It was shocking when I first started earning that money compared to a normal nine to five. I thought I was rich. You should have seen me in Harrods.

I was doing the most. And I was thinking, oh my God, I've made it, mum. But then obviously you grow up and you're like, okay, this isn't going to last forever. I don't think there's an age bracket and I don't think women should feel like, oh, okay. Because I've heard that a lot in interviews and stuff. They're like, oh, how long are you going to do it for?

When you get to 30 or when you have kids, are you going to give up? And I don't think having kids firstly should be a reason to quit the sex industry and I don't think age should be. But I think if you're bored of it or you don't want to see yourself in it long term, think of a good backup plan. Start investing that money. long term think of a good backup plan start investing that money Megan and Ruby thank you both so much for coming into the studio and for talking so openly and you know what's so wonderful about this show in a sense and having you guys here is the fact that is no shame and that we

can talk openly and honestly about things like porn which which can be so divisive. So I'm grateful for your honesty and your insight into it. And Sam Panels and Kolo, thank you too for your expertise, as always. Was it okay? I loved it. That was good. Sorry to be the person to say that that was a juicy chat. That was great. It was, wasn't it? I feel feel completely enlightened and I have to say I have learned something so thank you all of you and of course thank you for listening if this conversation resonated with you in any way then please do get in touch I know we say it every week but this show is nothing without you and your thoughts and feedback I'll be back next week with a new episode of It Can't Just Be Me. So please keep sending us your voice notes. You can get in touch

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