It Can't Just Be Me - 37: Facing shame as a trans person? With Jake Graf

Episode Date: February 28, 2024

This episode centres around one powerful voicenote from a listener called Fiona – a trans woman who grew up in the 1950s. Fiona got in touch to share the turmoil she went through growing up and the ripple effect it’s had on her life. Fiona asks how we can stop young trans people today feeling the same level of shame and ultimately create a more accepting society for future generations. To unpack this question, Anna is joined by one of the most prominent trans male voices in the UK today Jake Graf, along with Sarah Taylor – a trans-woman who appeared on Naked Attraction twice: once before transitioning, and once after. Joining the trio, is Chris Sheridan (AKA - the queer-psychotherapist) to offer their expertise to this impassioned and important conversation about what it means to be transgender in the UK today. Jake is a patron for Mermaids, a charity that supports trans, non-binary, and gender-diverse young people and their families. —Have questions about sex? Divorce? Motherhood? Menopause? Mental health? With no topic off limits, Anna’s here to prove that whatever you’re going through, it’s not just you.If you have a dilemma you’d like unpacked, visit itcantjustbeme.co.uk and record a voice note. Or tell Anna all about it in an email to [e-mail] podcast contains adult themes that may not be suitable for children. Listener caution is advised. Please note that advice given on this podcast is not intended to replace the input of a trained professional. If you’ve been affected by anything raised in this episode and want extra support, we encourage you to reach out to your general practitioner or an accredited professional.From Podimo & Mags CreativeProducers: Laura Williams and Christy Callaway-GaleEditor: Kim MilsomTheme music: Kit MilsomExecutive Producers for Podimo: Jake Chudnow and Matt WhiteExecutive Producer for Mags: Faith RussellFollow @itcantjustbemepod and @podimo_uk on Instagram and @itcantjustbemepod on TikTok for weekly updates. You can also watch the full episode on YouTube. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The faster money and data move, the further your business can go to a seamless digital future for Canadians. Let's go faster forward together. In life, interact. I'm going to start this episode by speaking about an incredible listener who got in touch with us a few weeks ago. Fiona, who you'll hear from later on, is a trans woman who grew up in the UK in the 1950s. When I heard the turmoil that she went through and the transphobia that she faced, we knew that we had to do an episode on this. So today, I'm joined by one of the most prominent trans men in the UK, actor, writer, director and activist, Jake Graff. Jake and his wife Hannah are the first trans couple in the UK to have a baby via surrogate.

And I'm also welcoming Sarah Taylor to the studio, a trans woman I've met twice on Naked Attraction, first when she was David and then when she was Sarah. There's a lot of ground to cover, so welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. Hi Anna. Hey Anna. Hey Anna. Hi Anna. Hey Anna.

Hi Anna. Hi Anna. Hi Anna. It can't just be me who's really struggling with staying faithful. I definitely got menopause brain. I really want children and he doesn't. I had feelings of jealousy. It's just all around the middle. I feel like a Teletubby. And then I hated myself for feeling

that way. If you've got any advice. I would really appreciate any advice. It can't just be me. It can't just be me, right? Jake, Sarah, welcome to It Can't Just Be Me now listen I feel like I know you both actually quite well Jake I see you a lot round on the circuit at various Linda Riley events you and Hannah and of course Sarah we've worked together twice now

albeit with your clothes off how are you both? I'm very well absolutely fabulous thank you I'm loving this so Sarah's fabulous Jake you're very? I'm very well. Absolutely fabulous. Thank you. I'm loving this. So Sarah's fabulous. Jake, you're very well.

I'm very well. Good. It's lovely to see you both. Thank you for coming into the studio. We're also joined remotely by Chris Sheridan, a.k.a. the Queer Therapist, who's beaming in all the way from Amsterdam. Chris, hello. Thank you for joining us.

Thank you for having me. Lovely to be here. It's good to see you again. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. Lovely to be here. It's good to see you again. Thank you for coming back on the show. Now, before we really get into things, I always ask my guests to share their very own It Can't Just Be Me dilemma. Jake, you are the first person in the hot seat. What have you got for us? Well, It Can't Just Be Me, who absolutely adores their kids and time with their kids but finds two and a half weeks of half term absolutely exhausting i am the father of two beautiful little girls one and three years old and i can't take another zoo visit soft play

begging for lollies taking them off to nana's it is just endless and interminable and they still got five days i think you're definitely preaching to an awful lot of the converted their parents listening going i hear you young kids exhausting wonderful but exhausting wonderful but exhausted it definitely isn't just you that's experiencing that so i'll let you off with that and you look amazing i have to say given that you're exhausted you're bearing up well you're bearing up very well. Sarah, what about you? I'm almost too scared to ask. What's your, it can't just be me?

Too scared to ask. Because I know you. What's coming out? You know me well, don't you? Actually, no, what I've got for you is actually quite mundane, which is unusual for me. It can't just be me who visibly has incredible fun at the gym. No one else does. I am the only one ever in that gym who dances, does air piano, sings out loud, wiggles around.

And at the end of each song, I look around. No, everyone is so glum. They look like they're in so much pain. I just think, come on, this is fun. Come on, so you're basically doing gym disco? I'm doing gym disco. And yeah, when I try and do the tap dance routine on the treadmill, it is so hilarious because I always get that wrong. It's just hilarious. I think for the first time ever on this show, I think it really is only you.

Do you know, you are right. Tap dances on a treadmill. Absolutely. So maybe it is just me. But then there we are. I don't mind because I'm having fun and I don't care. I don't care. I love the fact that you are in the gym and bringing a bit of joy and enjoying yourself with your headphones. Good for you.

Good for you. Now then, let's get into our dilemma for the day. Jake, Sarah, you are both trans. And like the listener who contacted us, you both transitioned in adulthood. So, Jake, if I can just start with you. Tell us a little bit about when you were growing up. At what point did you realise, I'm not a girl, I'm not a girl? I mean, for me, it was pretty much as soon as I could think, because I think, you know, little kids, if everything's fine, then there's nothing for them to vocalize. And so they just carry on with their merry way. For me, from the age of, I think, honestly, about two, two and a half, my mom tells me as soon as I was kind of speaking, I would say, you know, I'm a boy, I'm a boy, mommy, I'm a boy, daddy. And it was just something that I felt unwaveringly. It was just, I just knew. Obviously,

you know, I didn't know what a pronoun was, but I didn't like being called she. I didn't like being called my birth name. I didn't like being put in the pink frilly dresses that my mum would put me in. It was a really difficult time. Obviously, it was the 80s. It was growing up under Margaret Thatcher's horrific Section 28, where obviously you weren't allowed to talk about LGBT identities in schools and colleges and universities. And there was no trans visibility out there at all. So, you know, in the books I read or the cartoons after school or the films at the weekend with my dad,

there were no trans people whatsoever. The word transgender wasn't used back then. It was transsexual at best and certainly never with any kind of positive connotations. And so I just grew up feeling like a boy in a girl's body you know I know this this language is now frowned upon but for me I did feel like I was born in the wrong body and obviously because I didn't see anyone else like me out there I thought that I was the only one and I thought there was something seriously wrong with me and so you know my childhood was lonely and isolated and being told the whole time

that I was wrong and that I was being silly and that you know I grew up just feeling like I was a naughty kid basically and were you told that you would grow out of it oh I was told to stop talking about it I was I don't think they sort of my mum and dad said it to me I think this is probably what they were saying behind closed doors they tried as much as possible to ignore it you know my for my dad I was his cute little tomboy so it was kind of okay okay but bear in mind there was no internet so there was no point of you know there was no resources there was no mermaids charity which helps trans and gender non-conforming kids and I was pretty much out on a limb and I think I talked about it until apparently I was about six or seven and then I learned that I was not supposed to be talking in this way

and so like a lot of kind of LGBT queer kids, I just stopped talking about it and then obviously internalised it all and obviously that makes for a very healthy childhood. Well, exactly. And so your parents were unable to support you? Absolutely. I mean, they hadn't got a clue. I came from a very conservative household, both politically and culturally, unfortunately. And, you know, they were very kind, good parents, but had no clue what to do with their, you know, to their mind, difficult

little kid. I suppose, you know, first it was cute. It was imagination. It was, you know, a bit of a bit of pretend, you know, make believe. But then obviously by sort of six and seven, I'm still banging on about it. And I'm still insisting, you know, I'm not wearing dresses and I'm angry about the world. I think they probably just would hope that it went away. And eventually, as I say, I stopped talking about it. So probably to their mind, it did go away. So you learned to suppress it completely, didn't you, emotionally? At what point then did you find your voice to say, I am not the sex that I've been born into and that I now wish to transition? I mean, I, you know, desperate to sort of fit in somewhere because obviously everyone wants to belong. So at 18, I found the lesbian community and threw myself into that wholeheartedly.

Did that for about a decade. And it was only actually when I went off to New York when I was about 26 years old and met another trans man for the first time in my life this sort of wonderful beautiful man who was living in New York and supported and loved and and I saw hope for the first time and I thought this actually is a potential for a future which I'd never felt before which is why you know there's the old adage of know, you can't be you if you can't see you. And I had never met anyone like me before. And finally meeting this guy who just really took me under his wing and became my mentor, I realized that there was possibility to be happy and came back to London a few weeks later and kind of, you know, went guns blazing into it all and saw a psychologist who said, of course, you've got gender dysphoria, which obviously means, you know means your mind and your body don't really align.

And I was very fortunate that my mum helped me to do everything privately because by then the waiting lists for the NHS services were very, very long. But I had a mum who, when I finally told her and sat her down as an adult, at the age of, I guess, 28 by then, I said, Mum, this is why I've always been so unhappy, so difficult, so angry, so ragey. The first thing she said was, fine, what are we going to do about this? So it was then when you were 28 as an adult that your parents were finally able to emotionally support you. Yeah, I mean, my father died when I was 18.

Unfortunately, he never knew anything about me, never knew any of my queerness. I'm sure there was some sort of doubt. But he was unfortunately, he would have struggled with it, I think. And so I kind of almost waited until he wasn't around anymore. I came up to my mum as a lesbian at 19. She said, so long as you're happy, I'm happy. But clearly, I wasn't happy. And it was, I think, by the age of 28. And she'd seen me go through alcoholism and drug abuse and just being a real mess of a young person and a 20 year old and a nearly 30 year old that I think she needed something to kind of be able to help me with. held my hand through all of it and came to all my appointments and came to all my surgeries and was there when I woke up after top surgery and was there when I had my first testosterone injection and you know she has been phenomenal and it's with her and because of her that I'm obviously still here today. Just listening to you talk and you said that my dad passed when I was 18 do you regret that he never saw you as you as Jake?? Absolutely. I mean, I come sort of 12, 13, when puberty hit, life became almost unbearable. I mean, to the degree that, you know, I would pray every night to God that I'd wake up in a boy's body and obviously wake up the next

morning in floods of tears because nothing had changed. And when all those changes started happening, I would punch myself in the chest. I would try and strap everything down. I was filled with rage. And I would, I mean, I ceased to be able to look at myself in the mirror because what I saw felt so alien and to me so disgusting. It was horrific. You know, I stopped taking my clothes off. I just pulled away from my family and everyone and just became this little ball of rage. And when my father died when I was 18 and we hadn't spoken properly in years,

and unfortunately it will always be one of my biggest regrets, as is the case with a lot of LGBT people, that those relationships that are fractured when we're young, quite often we don't always have the opportunity to rebuild those. I will come to you in a second, Sarah, because I'm conscious of the fact that actually, clearly you are identifying with this because you're tearful let me come to you then

let me come to you next distract me I know I'm sorry because I will distract you because I can see that this is upsetting but you and I have met twice on Naked Attraction the mighty Naked Attraction the first time you came on, you were David. And then you came back on as Sarah, which is who you are today, fabulously.

Can you describe what your life was like when we first met, when you were David? It's actually quite interesting. So when we met, when you met David, he was actually really content to be, to act as this straight guy. What he had done, from some words given to him by his mother when he was six years old, he completely suppressed any thoughts of a transgender side. But he was so much aware that he was incredibly feminine so whenever anything came up in life that he would see as feminine he would suppress it he would just knock it back and he would just carry on acting like that I saw um that episode about a year ago when David was on when David was on and there is a really telling moment, probably the most telling moment,

when David was deliberately suppressing his female side. And it's near the very end, at the end of the studio, when you said, come on, David, show us what you got. And as he walked on, I tell you now what was going through his head. It wasn't the fact that millions were going to look at his genitals. That didn't matter. It was the fact that he was saying to himself, whatever you do, don't walk like a fucking girl

because you always do that. Remember, angle your feet out, keep your feet wide and waddle, make it look like a man. And when you see him, he deliberately exaggerates that. And I just laugh when I see that. I was thinking, oh my goodness. Because we never would have realised. No, no one would have seen it. And didn't realize he just thought he's just naturally

very feminine but he's got to be a man because he was told that is what you will be and from what I recall you were a married dad of two is that right absolutely yes you were separated from your wife yes that's right yes we were apart that's separated from your wife yes that's right yes we were apart that's very good friends but apart that's right that I remember so Sarah when did you realize then that actually you were meant to be Sarah okay actually there were two occasions as I briefly mentioned I knew when I was like five or six I did not want to be a boy I wanted to be a girl I felt like I associated with girls so much more my best friend was a girl and so we would often swap clothes and I loved that and that's when my mother came in and found us and um

metaphorically beat it out of me that I must never ever think that way again you've got to suppress this identity and this pain actually it's really painful but the actual time I really actually knew who I was was at 7 p.m on the 14th of February 2021 I was um doing some research online because I really started to think maybe I was a cross-dresser and I thought what is a cross-dresser and so I was researching all this and I came across this site the American Association of Psychiatrists which has all the pointers they particularly look for in gender dysphoria and so I thought oh this would be interesting as I came through I was like ticking every single box and I thought oh my god then it was like, if I can give you this visualisation, imagine there is a giant jigsaw puzzle in front of you

and all around the edges, all the quirky nuances in your life that just don't seem to make sense, where you don't fit in. And at that point, this giant single piece of the puzzle fitted in and everything, everything in my life made sense and then of course the next step immediately is to get a professional evaluation i think this is probably the point to bring chris into the conversation because we've talked a fair amount about gender dysphoria we've mentioned this now a couple of times can you just describe exactly what it is and the psychological impact that that

has on a person who's struggling with it? So there's a couple of definitions out there. So there's one in the ICD-11 journal, and there's another in the DSM. And both of them generally describe dysphoria as a kind of marked incongruence between the gender that you experience or that you express, and then the gender that you've been assigned at birth. So that marked incongruence, I think is a good word, that incongruence, something is not matching up. What we tend to see across trans people or gender diverse people in general, we tend to see there's generally two different types of gender dysphoria. There's social dysphoria and there's physical dysphoria. So the social dysphoria is when we are perceived as, again, that incongruence in perception.

So we're maybe being misgendered. That's an example of sort of social dysphoria happening. Our physical dysphoria could be, it may not be all of our bodies. It could an example of sort of social dysphoria happening. Our physical dysphoria could be, it may not be all of our bodies, it could be parts of our bodies. So in my case, chest area, I just have focused dysphoria around my chest area. So it could just be a sort of physical dysphoria in that sense. Some people have social dysphoria, some people have physical dysphoria, some people have both. Some people have no dysphoria, but also identify as trans or gender diverse or non-binary in some ways. And the important thing also to sort of mention is in recent years, gender dysphoria has been taken out of the mental health

chapters in all of the diagnostic manuals and is now in the sexual health chapters alongside other kind of related issues. In terms of the psychological impact of gender dysphoria, what we tend to see, again, it's a really difficult thing to pin down. The word dysphoria actually means distress. That's the root meaning of it. So some people describe it as a distress. Some people describe it as a sense of emptiness or a not belonging, a sense of loss or a confusion. The kind of general theme of it is something's not fitting, something's not quite right. I don't feel a sense of congruent belonging in myself. That I can completely understand. And thank you very much indeed for being so clear about the definition.

I mean, you must have people in your practice that are transitioning. And as you say, dysphoria being struggle and suffering, pain. So how difficult can it be for people who are transitioning? How much time do we have? So, I mean, the dysphoria itself, I think is, again, what's important to say here is dysphoria itself, it doesn't necessarily need to be experienced. So that kind of sense of struggle isn't synonymous with the trans experience. The struggle is usually in contact with our society. That's where typically the pain is rooted. That's what we tend to see.

So when we talk about, again, the psychological impacts on people of transitioning, where we tend to see the sort of pinch points is maybe in things like medical transition. So some people want a social transition. They don't need to involve any kind of healthcare input or medical input. But currently, for instance, in the UK, we've got an NHS waiting list at six years, roughly, plus for access to sort of medical transition within this country. Basically, it puts the onus on the individual to have to access private healthcare. So again, there's lots of financial barriers in there. Of course, healthcare. So again, there's lots of financial barriers in there. Of course, there's the psychological, the actual identity move of transitioning. That is a huge process. And then

in psychology, we call that sort of identity synthesis, and it involves a grief process. So it's a shedding. It's a shedding of lots of different aspects of our identity, but it's also about how do we restore ourselves in our environment, so in our workplace, in relation to our family. So there's huge change, huge grief that's part of that process that we tend to see. Okay, we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be back shortly

to share a very powerful listener dilemma. Back in a minute. This is a paid advertisement from BetterHelp. Are you the kind of person who shies away from difficult conversations? Well, it definitely isn't just you. Here at It Can't Just Be Me, we talk a lot about the complexities of relationships in different areas of our lives, whether that's with a romantic partner, within friendships, family members, or colleagues at work. And one thing that comes up frequently in our inbox is how to navigate the minefield of conflict. As we've learned from our psychotherapists on the show, it takes vulnerability and a lot of courage to have these conversations. But often a relationship comes out stronger for it.

Not sure where to start? Therapy can be a great place to start unpacking how best to approach these difficult conversations. I know so many people who benefit from it, myself included. If you're thinking of starting therapy, give Better Help a try. They provide access to UK mental health professionals with a wide variety of expertise, and there's no referral needed. Listeners to It Can't Just Be Me can get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com slash Anna. That's betterhelp.com slash Anna. Welcome back to It Can't Just Be Me. I'm here with Jake Graff, Sarah Taylor and psychotherapist Chris Sheridan. We have a powerful dilemma on the subject of trans visibility. This is Fiona's story.

visibility. This is Fiona's story. Hi Anna. When I grew up in the 1950s, the only media that was around for the most population was radio and newspapers. Visibility for any diverse group just wasn't there. So feeling the way I did from a very early age made me feel like I was the only person in the world. In fact I used to pray to God every night that he'd realise his mistake and by the morning he'd make me a girl. Whenever I mentioned my feelings at home I was just ridiculed and made to feel stupid. The same at school, in my junior school. So I became a consummate liar and I kept my mouth shut. It was the only way I could fit in. It took me more than 30 years to realise I wasn't the only person in the world. But still, the fear would be with me and still is, to a certain degree.

It took me 30 years to get over it, as I say. I remember being caught several times at home wearing my sister's clothes but on one special occasion i suppose i was around about 12 everyone had gone out for the day so i decided to experiment with makeup mum came back unexpectedly and caught me so she sat me down and told me all about homosexuals because i think she thought I was gay. I was really frightened. Well, then she said, well, all I had to do was to, when I grow up, was to find a girl, get married, have a few kids and I'd be fine. I believed her. She was my mum. She knew best. Prejudice then was driven by fear and ignorance, and it seems now it's driven by populists

who use that same ignorance for their own twisted agendas, whatever that may be. Now I'm in my autumn years, but the ridicule I suffered as a child, still with me, follows me everywhere. It's like a demon sitting on my shoulder. But I have to live with it. I have to cope with it.

I know it's depression depression but there it is i've been depressed all my adult life apparently the younger people today have different difficulties to deal with and i can see that very clearly so i think society is much better placed really to help them and in my small way i did what I could when I used to talk to groups like Relate and Samaritans. So I think I've done my bit for my community. However, the fight seems to go on. So with all that said, I'm wondering how we make sure that young people don't grow up with the same shame that I've had to go through in the future. And what would you say to anyone who's listening, how to educate and support these young people as they make their ways

through their lives? It's going to be difficult to navigate this, and they must find their own way. So how can we help? That's an extraordinary voice note there from fiona so let's talk generational differences first as fiona said she grew up in the 1950s which now makes her a woman in her 70s jake as you've mentioned you grew up in the 1980s 30 years later but do you recognize any similarities with how Fiona was treated? I think most trans people, I think, you know, even today, young trans people would say they're feeling very similarly. And, you know, a lot of what she was saying about praying to God every night and hoping she'd wake up in the correct body obviously still resonates with a lot of us.

I don't even believe in God. I don't know if I believed in God then. I needed to believe in something. You know, my wife, Hannah, who is also trans, was also caught by her mother and her brother, in fact, trying on makeup and clothes and things. So, you know, all of these experiences are very relatable, I think, to a lot of us. But honestly, I think the way the world is now, particularly in the US and the UK, obviously obviously there's been a huge increase in visibility, which is great. You know, the more young people can see other trans people who are older and who are sort of achieving and successful and just living their lives. Obviously, it means more young trans people are coming out, which obviously has enraged the anti-trans lobby, let's call them that. anti-trans lobby let's call them that and now what we've got is this sort of really unfortunate place where a lot of the visibility is so negative is so tainted because of what these young people are seeing in the newspapers and so on you know imagine walking to school every morning as a young

person 8 9 10 11 12 and seeing the hate beamed out at you by the newspapers every single morning well this this is what i wanted to pick up on, actually, with the pair of you, because Fiona talks about prejudice then was driven by fear and ignorance. Now, given the tragic murder of Brianna Jai, just how much fear and ignorance do you think there still is then, Jake? It sounds as though you're saying it is on the rise. Is that true?

It is honestly terrifying at the moment. And I think it's not the ignorance that there was back then, just a sort of lack of knowledge. Now it's misinformation, it's lies, it's fear mongering, it's hate mongering, fed to us by the media, fed to us by the newspapers and fed to us, unfortunately, largely by our government, who genuinely, I believe, had blood on their hands. I think what was going on back then was it just wasn't really seen, you know, trans identities, and they were had blood on their hands. I think what was going on back then was it just wasn't really seen, you know, trans identities, and they were so few and far between. They were ridiculed in a very different way to what they are now, because now it is a sustained attack.

It is an organised sustained attack. And we are being used by the government as a wedge issue for the election, just as trans people are being used in the US. And there are a lot of people with, unfortunately, a lot of money and a lot of skin in the game who really want to hurt and damage trans people. I mean, we've seen a phenomenal rise in just the number of articles about trans people. And bearing in mind we're 0.4% of the population,

I think we've seen something like last year there's some 345 articles, and that was in one of the worst newspapers around trans people trans kids trans women usually and obviously trans men are all but invisible in the whole thing i will pick you up on that actually because i do want to know the difference between trans men and trans women in terms of response and fear and ignorance and hatred but we do know that there was an 11 increase in hate crimes in the UK against trans people between 2022 and 2023, according to the Home Office. Why is that hatred

there? What is it about in society that trans people are being attacked? Why? We are a tiny minority group. Unfortunately, we're not being given a voice. There's no counter voice. You know, these papers that are writing about us writing about how horrific trans women are, how they're all predatory and how they're all mentally ill and how they're all abusive. And the same papers that are writing that, you know, healthy gay and lesbian children are being transed. I hate that verb. It's not even a verb. Made, you know, made transgender so they can live straight, normal life. I mean, it is all just such nonsense at the moment. And I think, you know, honestly, I think the newspapers have figured out that we sell

papers because there is so much outrage around trans people being allowed to compete in sports. And, you know, the nonsense that newspaper will have you believe that kids are being rushed into surgeries at eight or nine or 10 and these terribly misleading headlines that unfortunately, no one is allowing trans people to counter. So know you've got these stories about trans kids being transed or unhappy detransitioners but you're not hearing from all the hundreds of thousands of happy trans kids and their parents who've never seen their children so happy after they're allowed to societally transition at the moment honestly it's it's a vendetta unfortunately Anna. Listening to Fiona's dilemma it is clear just how important parents attitudes are when it comes to how a child perceives themselves you've both talked about it so Jake as a parent and as a trans man what advice would you give to parents who want to be a supportive influence, either in the community or for their own children who may be trans?

What advice would you give? I think as parents, we are all bound to listen to our children, to understand our children as much as we can, to support them in whoever they say they are. You know, this nonsense about, oh, kids don't know what they want for breakfast. How do they know about gender? I mean, it's such a silly base argument. You know, if a child is saying to you repeatedly, as I did for many, many years, that they feel themselves to be in a body

that doesn't feel like their own, then listen to them. You know, they're probably not spinning you a line because obviously this is causing them distress. It's a big thing to do for a young child to come out and say this. For me, if my child said she liked other girls or she felt in a different body,

I would think, firstly, what an honour that she had chosen to tell me and what trust she had in me and how incredibly special our bond must be, firstly. But no matter what, I would support her. I would make her feel like there was nothing wrong with how she felt. I would make her feel like I would protect her and I would be there for her. And what if they change their mind? What if you support them for five years or until they're 16 or 18? And then they say, actually, do you know what? I've realised this isn't how I feel anymore

and I'm going to stop this. And you say, do you know what? Great. But what they will remember is that you were a parent that supported them, that loved them, that was never at odds, that never argued with them or made them feel lesser or invalid. They will remember that. And believe me, if you're the parent that fights them, kicking and screaming and makes them feel less and makes them feel unloved, then you run a very serious risk of losing your child. I do want to pick up as well with Chris, actually, on how difficult this can also be for parents. So what kind of emotion is going through their minds when they realise as you pick up on Jake and as Sarah's mentioned, you've got an unhappy child who perhaps wants to transition. How difficult is it for parents? What we tend to see is again again, a huge amount of grief for parents.

Again, there's a loss of expectation. They had a child that was born a girl, told that their baby is a girl, and they expected their girl to grow up to be that. So there's this huge, huge kind of shock, grief follows that. I also see with a lot of parents, what tends to kind of happen is the more we hold on to our assumptions about identity, the harder it is then to be open and to be flexible to the idea of change and growth. If we look at that person's full identity, so their background, their class, their age, their could be gender, could be religious

background, all of these different factors play into how that person is potentially going to manage that process. There could be a lot of value conflicts in there. Is it actually aligned with their faith? Is it aligned with their class culture, for instance? So there's lots of different nuances in there. But ultimately, what we see is they also carry the same shame that the child carries. So society has, I guess, perpetuated this sense of internalized shame. And parents will likely feel that as well. They'll think, God, no, I don't want this for my child. I don't want to feel this, but I also don't want my child to feel this.

So there's a sense of helplessness in that place as well. I think that can't be underestimated, actually. You've talked about the grief and as you say, that internalised shame and that you don't want it for yourself as a parent and you don't want it for your child. Sarah, I must ask you, now that you are Sarah, what's your relationship like with your children now? Oh my goodness, absolutely amazing.

It really is. So we brought our children up to be very accepting, whether it's gender, race, religion, sexuality, whatever. So when I realised and was assessed, yes, you have gender dysphoria, and I thought, I need to do the transition. yes you have gender dysphoria and I thought I need to do the transition the only people I really needed if you like permission from that's not the right word were my children so I went to see them and I knew in my heart what they would say because they are so incredible and loving and they were just over the moon they gave me a big hug but my son said on one condition i said oh what's that we can still call you dad i thought absolutely you can that was going to be one of my questions so they call you they still call you dad yes they call me dad with obviously um she her

pronouns which does get some eyes looking around but whether I see it. The dad is not a gender thing. It's a role. And that was the role I played throughout all of their lives. I have absolutely no issue with that whatsoever. And you don't have to answer this question at all, obviously. But what's your relationship then like with your ex-wife? How did she take it? The relationship with the ex-wife is also fabulous.

She took it really well. So I spoke to the children and she was there but within different rooms so i then spoke to her and she said i knew there was something about you i said yeah i know you thought i was gay the whole time because i was so effeminate although i was presenting and really thought that i was a straight male. And she said, that makes perfect sense. And so I wonder whether there's a degree of relief as well, maybe for your children or your ex-partner going, I just knew you weren't really you.

I think there's probably relief for her. But with the children, it was actually more celebration, excitement, because they saw how happy I was just talking about it, even though I was really scared. It's the biggest step you could ever do in your life. But I was so happy and they were just so excited for me. I just want to address Fiona's closing question head on. She's asked us, how can we make sure that young people don't grow up with the same shame that I've had to go through. We've just discussed the role of parents. Jake, you have touched on the representation in the media and the role of

the media. So I want to talk a little bit more about that. As a trailblazer, really, in the UK media yourself, do you think there's a difference in the way that trans men are represented compared to trans women? I think if you look around you in the media, you would probably be hard pressed to name two visible trans men in the UK media, possibly also in the US. Obviously, we've now got Elliot Page, but Elliot obviously is a late comer to the game. There are barely any visible trans men and lots of visible trans women who are sort of doing amazing things and you know Hannah will say that there is obviously this understanding across the world that masculinity is superior masculinity is better we must all strive to to be masculine why would we not and her sort of thought process is that obviously people see trans women as kind of by choice dropping down from that place of privilege and therefore there is

this real fascination why would a man lose his privilege like that i don't understand it's you know everyone wants that privilege everyone wants to be on that pedestal that men have why on earth would anyone want to give that up so i think that you know if people's perception of trans men is that we are women who wanted to wanted, who were sort of reaching for the masculinity that obviously testosterone and transition has afforded us. But also then if you look out at the world physically, I walk down the street, no one looks at me. And, you know, statistically, trans women tend to be taller than their cis male counterparts. So you've got a lot of very, very tall trans women who have had to be visible because they haven't had the choice they haven't been able to do like trans men have done which is to live this sort of stealth lifestyle which means that we just basically slide under the radar and that is why

I think you know trans women have always fought the charge they've always been at the forefront of all the battles that's why they've always had all the magazines all the bars all the clubs all the societies and trans men are almost invisible because we are afforded that kind of luxury which is a double-edged sword because it means you know you look out and you don't see us and there are no trans male or very few trans male role models and which is why trans women are at the front with the attacks with the accusations what you're saying i think is that you've still got some of the sort of gender stereotypes of your biological sex? You know, I was raised, nurtured as a little girl to be quiet, to look pretty, to, you know,

pass around a bowl of crisps to, you know, wear a pretty little dress and look nice. And, you know, I have a lot of conversations with my trans male friends where we have all been taught for a lot of our lives to just be quiet and sort of, you know, and obviously I was part of the lesbian community and lesbians also are very invisible societally or have been historically. And, you know, as Hannah will say, she was raised as a boy and she was raised to speak up and have your voice heard and stand proud and stand tall and take your space. And I think when you've done that for 20, 30, 40 years, of course, you're not going to suddenly unlearn all those teachings. That is really interesting to me. So obviously, Sarah, I'm going to bring you in here as having been David for 40 odd years. 53 years. 53 years.

Now that you are Sarah, how does that affect you? For Sarah, how does that affect you? I think an analogy I like to bring in, it actually works well with an actor and director here, is that I spent 53 years acting the role of David. But it was flipping exhausting because I was constantly keeping up and trying to fit into that role that I was assigned. The script was written by society and when I transitioned I could rip that script up. I stopped acting. I was me. I've got so much

more confidence and pride in myself because I write the flipping script of my life now, not society. life now not society i'm interested to know how people treat you as a woman and how people treat you as a trans woman what's your experience been my experience has been very much as a woman you know i have seen 10 000 clients since i transitioned because i do earwax removal i'm a clinical audiologist and i've only had two, if you like, anti-trans or transphobic comments. And one of them, this is really interesting, he had seen David and he said, you're absolutely crazy. And he walked up. He came back for his therapy, which I was doing, his ears, and he didn't want to talk to me. He was closed over, but he needed his ears done. The third visit visit he came

back and he started asking questions the fourth fifth and sixth visits he brought me flowers and he gave me hugs and on his last visit sadly he did pass away shortly afterwards on his last visit his last words were to me were do you know what I really like David but I like Sarah so much more and that is about the personal side it's not written down it's about being in contact with a human to see someone to understand someone and you may not sympathize you may not empathize but you can see how it works it's almost that we're coming right back down to the human level Chris I guess of seeing somebody as they authentically are and authentically need to be. And I just wonder whether that's what we all need to do in society is about accepting somebody who is genuinely themselves.

Does that make sense? It does. And I was I'm just sitting here. I was quite touched by what you just shared there, Sarah. And it takes me to that place of labels are useful only up until a certain point. Like they're a vehicle to understand ourselves better, but then they start to become self-limiting. And actually what we all need to be able to do is in some ways transcend that, put the categories, put the labels aside, meet the person,

dig deep, be open, allow ourselves to grow, allow ourselves to understand. And that's what I really heard in that sharing. Can we close the episode with some hope and some joy and some optimism? Sarah, what is life like now for you? I mean, you're already so full of joy. You've come into the studio, you know, hugely optimistic. What is life like for you now? Absolutely amazing. It is absolutely amazing. I mean, there are no words to describe how happy I am.

And just by being me, by knowing I am me, because I know I am living honest and true to myself but also really important I'm surrounded by so much love from friends and family and that goes such a long way it really does I couldn't be happier actually you know I could I need someone in my life oh my god I'm still single why don't we get you back on naked attraction forraction for a third time? A third time? Oh, hell, I'd do anything. You know me. I do. And Jake, you and Hannah, as you've mentioned, both transitioned.

You found each other. You fell in love. You've married. You've had children, which is so much more than so many of us can actually dream of and hope for. so many of us can actually dream of and hope for. What beacon of light can you share for any young people listening who are dealing with gender dysphoria? I just think, you know, remember that,

I think they've said recently that 50% of 18 to, sorry, 16 to 24s now identify somewhere along the LGBTQI spectrum, which means that the next generation, in theory, will either be queer or be friends with someone queer or will have family who are queer lgbt identified and that gives me great hope for the future i think we're seeing some very very brave young kids who are coming out who know exactly who they are this nonsense about young people not knowing their own minds is just just that nonsense they are strong they are determined and they are going to be the leaders of tomorrow. And, you know, Hannah and I know how incredibly fortunate we are. It still

all feels like a day to me. I still look at my kids and think, how have we ever been this lucky? But, you know, we are sort of proof that we, as trans people, deserve it all, can have it all, should not feel that just because we're trans, we don't have that future if we want it. And obviously, you know, there are a lot of trans people that would run screaming at the thought not feel that just because we're trans we don't have that future if we want it and obviously you know there are a lot of trans people that would run screaming at the thought of marriage and children but they can also have what they dream of as well and I think that's what we've got to remember that the future can can look very bright. And Chris finally from your perspective where can people go for more support if they need it? I think Jake mentioned mermaids earlier. Again,

for young people, mermaids is a good resource. For adults as well, there's an excellent charity called Not A Phase, who are doing wonderful work across the UK. I would encourage people, first and foremost, to connect up with groups of other trans people. It's in those spaces where they start to see themselves mirrored. And then there's also Voda. Voda is an LGBTQI mental health app and has some brilliant resources for trans and non-binary people. That's fantastic. Thank you for that, Chris. Jake and Sarah, thank you both for coming into the studio today and sharing your honest and most importantly, lived experience with us all. Thank you to our listener, Fiona, for your powerful dilemma.

And also to Chris Sheridan for bringing the queer psychotherapy expertise as well. Thank you very much. And everybody as well listening. Everybody as well listening, you'll be delighted to hear that Naked Attraction is returning to television screens on the 6th of March. In the meantime, I'll be back next week with a new episode of It Can't Just Be Me. So please keep sending us your voice notes. You can get in touch at itcan'tjustbeme.co.uk or you can email me at itcan'tjustbeme at podimo.com. And if you want to see more of the show, remember you can find us on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube and Facebook.

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