It Can't Just Be Me - 38: International Women’s Day Special - With Charlie Webster

Episode Date: March 6, 2024

To mark International Women's Day this week, Anna puts the spotlight on one of the most dangerous issues that many women are facing - domestic abuse. Anna is joined in the studio by Charlie Webster (award-winning broadcaster, journalist, and Women's Aid Ambassador) who shares her own moving story of surviving abuse, Sarah Davidge (Women's Aid Head of Research) and psychotherapist Fiona Kau. Together, the group unpack a dilemma from a woman who had an abusive partner when her daughter was young. Along the way, they also touch on the subject more broadly, considering how society views victims of domestic abuse and what needs to be done to provoke meaningful change. The advice given on this podcast is not intended to replace the input of a trained professional. You can call the National Domestic Abuse Helpline on 0808 2000 247. There are further resources on the Women’s Aid website.—Have questions about sex? Divorce? Motherhood? Menopause? Mental health? With no topic off limits, Anna’s here to prove that whatever you’re going through, it’s not just you.If you have a dilemma you’d like unpacked, visit itcantjustbeme.co.uk and record a voice note. Or tell Anna all about it in an email to [e-mail] podcast contains adult themes that may not be suitable for children. Listener caution is advised. Please note that advice given on this podcast is not intended to replace the input of a trained professional. If you’ve been affected by anything raised in this episode and want extra support, we encourage you to reach out to your general practitioner or an accredited professional.From Podimo & Mags Creative Producers: Laura Williams and Christy Callaway-GaleEditor: Kit MilsomTheme music: Kit Milsom Executive Producers for Podimo: Jake Chudnow and Matt WhiteExecutive Producer for Mags: Faith Russell Follow @itcantjustbemepod and @podimo_uk on Instagram and @itcantjustbemepod on TikTok for weekly updates. You can also watch the full episode on Youtube.  Headshot by Laura Ribatallada  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, it's me, Anna. Now, before we begin, we do discuss domestic violence in this episode, so please listen with care. Last year, I read an interview with the Oscar-winning actress Olivia Colman about her campaign work on domestic abuse against women. She raised a question to the journalist that has really stayed with me. She said, if it was between two and three men killed a week, as it is for women, would that make a difference? This Friday is International Women's Day, a day to acknowledge how far we've come as women, but also to consider what still needs to be done to accelerate the fight for gender equality. One of the most dangerous issues that many women

continue to face today is domestic abuse. Domestic abuse thrives when we're silent. So let's get talking. Today, I'm joined by three brilliant women, award-winning broadcaster, writer, and survivor of abuse, Charlie Webster, Women's Aid Head of Research, Sarah Davidge, and psychotherapist, Fiona Cow. Welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. Hi, Anna. Hey, Anna. Hey, Anna.

Hi, Anna. Hey, Anna. Hi, Anna. Hi, Anna. Hi, Anna. It can't just be me who's really struggling with staying faithful. I definitely got menopause brain. I really want children, and he doesn't. I have feelings of jealousy. It's just all around the middle. I feel like aopause brain. I really want children and he doesn't.

I had feelings of jealousy. It's just all around the middle, I feel like a Teletubby. And then I hated myself for feeling that way. If you've got any advice. I would really appreciate any advice. It can't just be me. It can't just be me, right? Charlie, Sarah, hello and welcome to It Can't Just Be Me and this International Women's Day special.

How are you both today? I'm really great. I'm so glad to be here and I'm really happy to be talking about such an important topic and to be spending International Women's Day doing this. Well, do you know, thank you, Charlie, because I know that you are particularly rushed today. You're about to board a plane, so we've got precious time. I was like, oh no, I'll take a more positive stance rather than be like, well, I'm actually really rushed. I've just come from this and I'm about to go on a plane and go and film this, but thank you. You did that for me.

We're incredibly, incredibly grateful to have you. And also, Sarah, how are you? I'm well, thank you. I feel so calm in comparison to Charlie's really eventful day. So I'm probably giving you such chaotic energy sitting next to you. It's good to have you both in studio and of course Fiona Cowell, welcome back. How are you? I'm very good, thank you. Good to be here. Very calm psychotherapist in the corner here, very calm. Now listen, today we are delving into the difficult and triggering topic of domestic

abuse. What I want to do first of all is start with what we mean when we say domestic abuse. The Charity Women's Aid's definition is an incident or pattern of incidents of controlling, coercive, threatening, degrading and violent behaviour, including sexual violence, in the majority of cases by a partner or ex-partner, but also by a family member or carer. Today, we're focusing on women as victims, but it is important to say that anybody can be a victim of this crime. Charlie, if we can start with you, we know that home is supposed to be a safe space for everybody, particularly children. But that wasn't the case for you. So can you just tell us a little bit about your story?

Yeah, it's so interesting listening to you talk about the definition. And I'm an ambassador for Women's Aid. I'm so proud to be and have been for a long time. But I think one of the things, and I know Women's Aid do amazing work around this, that we sometimes miss in the conversation is children. And you have to remember that those children then become adults and they don't just all of a sudden become healthy adults. And I mean healthy emotionally. When I talk about healthy, that can function in society without any problems. Like you can't expect to be brought up in a chaotic, violent, whether it's emotionally, physically or financially violent home and not feel it and not have an impact. So for me, home wasn't safe.

It was very chaotic. I mean, I'd walk in the door and just to give an example, because again, I really love your opener, Anna, because I think there was a time when it was just seen as like walk in the door and just to give an example, because again, I really love your opener, Anna, because I think there was a time when it was just seen as like a bruise or a black eye, right? But that's not really to me what domestic abuse is. It's every day of walking in the door and you can't even make a noise because if you make a noise it might bring attention to you which might cause something so for me I'd walk in the door and I'd know exactly where the floorboards create so it's actually like a lot of um fear and control um but there was also physicality uh for me like I was

pushed down the stairs I was punched I was hit so there was punched. I was hit. So there was physicality. But what's really interesting, I think, as I've got older, it's not really that that stays with me. It's the everyday fear of what might happen that stuck with me. And also I was modelled fear in relationships. And I was also modelled that a man controlled a woman and that's definitely, you know, I'll be open about this. Sometimes it's hard to say and admit to myself but it's caused me problems in my relationships in adulthood because I've struggled with an emotionally healthy relationship. Sometimes I've got into a relationship with an abuser and just repeated their pattern because even though that's unsafe, there's familiarity in that.

Because sometimes when I'm in a healthy emotional relationship, that makes me feel unsafe because I'm like, OK, is this person going to reject me? And, you know, you just never really, really feel safe. And also what domestic abuse does is it creates a sense of self, which is false. Like I saw myself as somebody that was worthless, that, you know, was always second best and that didn't deserve to be loved. And that love was conditional. And that's what I learned about myself. And that's something that I had to really work to undo because that's not innate in me that's not how I was born but it was how I was modelled and the behaviours that I learnt because I didn't know any different. Can I ask a very basic question here which is just describe the setup at home so this was your mum and your stepfather father not your father it wasn't but my mum um did leave my biological father um because of

abuse as well yeah so she was in two abusive relationships um yeah but you know sometimes I actually find that harder to talk about interestingly um when you ask that question um I stumbled a little bit and I mean you know me I don't tend to stumble when I speak um because yeah he was my he's my is my biological father and um we've done a little bit of interesting mending recently so maybe that's why I find it hard to talk about um my mum had me very young she was a teenager when she had me she was kicked out of school wasn't allowed. She was a teenager when she had me. She was kicked out of school, wasn't allowed to sit her exams. You know, she hid me with safety pin and jeans. And I'm so proud of her because she fought to keep me.

And it was a very difficult situation, but she did. And I'm also proud that she left my dad. But she did end up going into another abusive relationship, which to me was, you know, far worse. And she stayed with him for a long time, for 29 years. Thank you, Charlie. Sarah, women are considerably more likely to experience repeated and severe abuse than men, including physical and sexual violence. Why is it that women are the most vulnerable? I think this goes back to societal context and the points that Charlie was making about learned behaviour. It goes beyond individual circumstances and it's something we've got centuries of societal learning about. Research that we've carried out at Women's Aid into the way

that people talk about circumstances shows this real idea that a woman is the peacemaker in a family. It's a woman's responsibility to hold things together. To be the nurturer. To be the nurturer, but to fix things if something's wrong in the relationship. So the report that we did with Bristol University showed where women have sort of mental health issues or really understandable trauma as a result of domestic abuse. The narratives were around, you know, a crazy woman and her behaviour that then being used to excuse male violence in the relationship. And when I talk about violence, I'm not just talking about physical violence, but then equally when a man is sort of showing the same kind of mental health issues or something like that, that also is used as an excuse for male violence and abuse, because it makes people

feel sympathy for him. So we have these really deep set prejudices within us all as a result of that kind of conditioning. So at Women's Aid, we look at domestic abuse, where it's experienced by women and perpetrated by men as a cause and consequence of that inequality in society. And that is what we are seeing in the prevalent statistics, in the fact that where women experience it, it's different. They're more likely to experience coercive control in behaviour. They're more likely to experience, obviously, sexual violence and to experience these patterns and prolonged feelings of fear and everything that Charlie was describing. What signs should we be looking out for when it comes to abuse?

Because we know it can be subtle. It's so subtle. This would be one of the things that I'd change about perception. It's so subtle because a perpetrator is never, like they're never going to be horrible to you the first date or the first time they meet. In fact, they're wonderfully charming. You know, when I first met my stepdad, I was so excited and I was like, oh my God, my mom's so happy. He's so lovely to her. And I just think it's really important that there are red flags, but to understand that it's very subtle because I think it can be very confusing for people.

And I've spoke to a lot of victims and survivors that found it very confusing whether they're actually in a domestic abuse relationship or not. And some of the old fashioned campaigning, a lot of people would look at the campaigning around domestic abuse or awareness or conduct this helpline and go, oh yeah, but that's not me. I mean, like if I look at my own experiences, some of the red flags were that they were overly charming, that they start to want to see you all the time. You know, it's lovely if somebody really likes you. Just love bombing. Yeah, love bombing bombing me and my mum have spoke about this that's what my stepdad did with my mum I mean my mum was pregnant within months and then married again within months to him and it was that real night you know in shining armor thing with my mum but then there was red flags like he started to not want her to see friends

started to comment on what she was wearing he moved in with us and had like debt and there was all these different red there was red flags and I think there always is but it's so hard to spot especially if it's a vulnerable person that just feels they want to be loved and I think that was my mum she just wanted to be loved and she wanted me to have a stable family and, you know, it blinds you sometimes. I think that's a really good point that you make there about not seeing yourself when we talk about red flags. So I think a lot of survivors talk similarly to Charlie about this treading on eggshells. And I think there are red flags that you can look at there are things that happen really often but if you feel in your relationship that you are having to change how you behave how you are to seek the approval or avoid the disapproval of the person that should love you most

something is wrong so even if you don't see isolation manipulation threats and remember threats are just as an important part of coercive control as the actual perpetration of the behaviour. Living under the threat of violence controls your actions every bit as much as the actual violence on an ongoing day. So I think knowing that and having the recognition that this is a pattern of behaviour, and it's a context of fear, and if something doesn't feel right, it's not. A relationship should be a safe place. It's also often normalised.

I just wanted to point that out. So sometimes, oh, yeah, it's fine. Isn't that just a normal relationship? They might just let me go here. That's just men are. You know, they, of course, they don't want you to, they might control you, you know, blah, blah, blah. Like it's really normalised.

That's just one thing I wanted to point out. And actually also, I think it's, yeah, it's normalised across the board, isn't it? Because when we talk about domestic abuse, we tend to think, you know, of a woman being physically hurt, which of course is part of it, but it can be those very subtle behaviours. And I think you're absolutely right to say then we tend to go, well, that's not me. Well, I recognise some of that in my relationship, but no, I'm not a victim of domestic abuse. And I know so many friends and women where I can see signs of, as you say, Sarah, this isn't right. This behaviour isn isn't right they would never in a million years consider that they might be in a yeah in a somewhat abusive relationship and it's really hard

to admit it yeah as well it's human behavior we don't like to you know it can make us feel like we're not good enough it can bring about shame and it's really hard to admit that you're in that and sometimes it's easier to bury your head in the sand and ignore it and try and keep going and that can be really true in lesbian relationships as well so where you're in and you know with with gay men experiencing domestic abuse where you're in a relationship that society almost you know demonizes because of homophobia you're not going to want to talk out about something being wrong in your relationship because you want to present it to being. You've already been othered. Yes.

So then you're going to be othered again by saying actually this is then abusive. Are there any stereotypes about abuse that you would like to dispel? Many stereotypes about abuse. I think there's the notion that she must have done something to provoke him. You know, we all have feelings and we all manage those in different ways, but we're responsible for the actions that come out of our feelings, not somebody else. I think that if it was that bad, she'd leave.

There's another really common one. There are so many reasons. I think, Charlie, you have got so much experience of this and some of that is fear because leaving is actually dangerous. Yeah, that's the one I was going to say. So like when people say, well, why didn't you leave? It's so nuanced.

I mean, there's financial, which is not talked about enough. Like a lot of the time in domestic abuse, finances are controlled as a way to control that person as well. It is the most dangerous time, which you just mentioned, and it's the highest risk. And I mean, my mum tried to leave many times. When she did actually leave, and you know, nobody really knows this. I do write a little bit about it in my book, but that was really the most horrific time and um there was police involved and um he did um want to kill her so so clearly for a lot of women it can be extremely unsafe to leave without the right support and also sometimes i think we forget the role of love within that as well,

because I imagine that a lot of women say, well, I know a lot of women say, but I love them. I love them and I'm waiting for it to get better. And when it's better, it's great. We don't fall in love with an abuser. We fall in love with somebody who then becomes abusive and that's the way it comes. So it's difficult to lose that also it's never always bad that's really important to remember so there's there's good times within it and there's charm within it and that's why it's so hard to leave because the next day it'll be wonderful and that's why it's so hard to leave as well fiona when people come into your clinic having been in abusive relationships how are you seeing the impact on their lives? How does it impact them?

It has such a massive impact. I think in terms of mental health, people often experience a lot of depression, anxiety, low self-esteem. Sometimes it can be PTSD from the trauma, distrusting the world, distrusting others, distrusting themselves. So it's a really, really hard place to be in. And are you also seeing the pattern that we're discussing here about those people going, well, you know, when it's good, it's good. It's great. And perhaps it will get better. Are you seeing a lot of that self-questioning? Absolutely. So often there's this trying to leave several times, going back into the relationship. And very often as a therapist, I need to hold that as well and work with them together through going back. It can be really

frustrating for outsiders to go through that. It must be that with the stories you're hearing with your clients of, you know, clearly abusive behavior, and then they end up going back. That is really hard. I mean, I show up no matter what, right? I show up for my clients, because that's the place I think you need to hold for people who have experienced domestic abuse, is that my attention is not conditional. You know, you show up how you are and who you are. And we talk about this, and I'm not going to judge you for going back, because I understand all the dynamics behind you going back. But I'm going to try and support you in whatever you need now.

We're going to take a quick break, but we'll be back shortly with our listener dilemma. With it being International Women's Day this week, I wanted to recommend Net-A-Porter's podcast, Incredible Women. Net-A-Porter's podcast, Incredible Women. Hosted by Net-A-Porter's content director, Alice Casely Hayford, and fashion director, Kay Barron, the series talks to a whole host of, you guessed it, incredible women. Women who are creating change with their strength, drive, and influence. In this new series, Alice and Kay will be talking to the trailblazing feminist activist, Gloria Steinem, Hollywood poly Issa Rae, podcast luminary Elizabeth Day, and many more. Join them as they explore what power means,

their greatest sources of inspiration, and what fuels their relentless drive for success. Net-a-Porter's Incredible Women is available wherever you get your podcasts. Available wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to It Can't Just Be Me. This week, I'm discussing the difficult subject of domestic abuse with the broadcaster and survivor, Charlie Webster, Sarah Davidge from Women's Aid, and psychotherapist Fiona Cao. We've received the following dilemma from a woman who had an abusive partner when her daughter was young.

And now that her daughter is older, she's looking for advice. Hi, I wondered if you could help me with this problem I'm trying to figure out. So I split up with my partner when my daughter was a couple of months old. She's almost 16 now, and we haven't seen him since she was a baby. The reason I left and stopped contact was because he was emotionally and physically abusive towards me and I didn't want her to grow up in an environment that was destructive and difficult. I wanted her to be surrounded with people who love her and not have to deal with any of that. So I always said that if she wanted to get in touch with him,

I would do my best to make that happen because I feel it's her right, whatever else happened with us. And I'd go by what she needed. So she said she wants to get in touch this summer. Now, I haven't heard from him. I emailed him recently and asked for some photos so that she could, if she wants to, when she wants to, have that information. And I do really want to support that because I feel like it's important to her, obviously. But on the other hand, she's very vulnerable in lots of ways. There've been a few, you know, the time of that, you know, being 16 and going through exams and everything. And also just there have been a few

eating related things lately and I just know that he can be quite manipulative and I feel like it could be incredibly dangerous but on the other hand I'm kind of have this guilt even though I feel like I did the right thing. You know, I feel a tremendous sense of guilt and I don't feel it would be right to say no if that's what she really wants. But again, it's very difficult and I just want to do what's right for her. So any advice would be would be great. advice would be great. So, at the heart of this dilemma, are listeners asking if she should allow her daughter to have contact with this man that we're assuming is her father? Now, before we get into this, as a duty of care, we need to say that this situation is nuanced and any response we give

now should not be taken instead of professional support. With that said, Sarah, what are your immediate thoughts on this? It's such a dilemma, isn't it? I think we've talked a lot about the impact of domestic abuse on children and young people. And, you know, had her daughter grown up in that relationship, she would have experienced that in a very real way. in that relationship, she would have experienced that in a very real way. So there's, I think, something about support and validation to the listener. And I think there's a wider reflection on the importance of having conversations with our young people about what a healthy relationship looks like. And I think in this particular context, the biggest thing to me would be about your listener having the non-judgmental listening approach, being open, keeping that relationship with her daughter open to just be there.

You know, her daughter may come to the same conclusions she has, but it may take her longer. She may come to different conclusions, but making sure that there is always somewhere she can go to ask questions and to be open so it's having that open dialogue with her daughter about this was my experience with your dad you can be open can't you to somebody else's journey supportive don't judge and I think really really importantly here is for your listener to reach out for support in her own right because this is going to bring back her past experiences. And it's, you know, there's no point on a survivor's recovery journey where it's not OK to reach out to the helpline, live chat, local services and ask for support. Fiona, our listener talks about that feeling of tremendous guilt. Why do you think she's feeling guilty?

I mean, from what I hear, what I think this listener is feeling guilty about is that potentially having deprived her daughter of having grown up with a father, but she had to make this decision to keep her and her daughter safe. mother but she had to make this decision to keep her and her daughter safe but as a as a mother and probably what society kind of mirrored for her is that the idea is a child grows up with two parents and she had to make that decision to exclude the father from their relationship so I think that the guilt is about that. Charlie does this resonate at all with your lived experience of feeling guilty or did your mother actually you wouldn't have felt guilty, but did your mum feel guilty? I know I did feel guilty. You did? Yeah, so my mum, absolutely. I mean, I don't even think she felt guilt. I think she felt shame. They're slightly different. Like shame is very internal. Guilt is something that's external and can provoke change in behavior and action. Whereas shame is like,

just has no place for any of us. So I think it's really important. I don't know whether your listener is feeling that, but it's, I just want them to know that that shame is misplaced and it's not for you to feel guilty or shame, but my mum definitely felt that. And then what that causes is my mum didn't necessarily want to speak to me about everything that happened. And would find sometimes when I needed to talk about it or I was struggling, even when she was still with him, she just couldn't speak because she felt so much shame about my own life and about herself as a mother. She's an amazing mother, but that created friction and a distance in our relationship. So it's really important that your listener doesn't let her own guilt get in the way of her relationship with the daughter, because

that's what happened. And then I just want to address your listener. I just want to say, like, I think you're incredibly brave and courageous and I am going to be opinionated. I absolutely think you 100% made the best decision for yourself and for your daughter because I did feel guilty because I felt like it was my fault. The violence was your fault. Yeah. And the emotional abuse too. And the situation as a whole was my fault because if only I was better and it caused like over perfectionist behaviors in myself, which, you know, might sound quite, you know, okay on the surface because it's like, you know, you achieve a lot, but actually it creates such internal conflict and depression because nothing you ever do is good enough and you're just worthless. So I actually did feel quite guilty and I felt

that I should protect my mum. So then what happened is I then felt like I should be the protector of my mum. I'm interested as well, because your life reflects some of this dilemma as well in terms of the fact that you've recently reconnected with your biological dad. And I'm conscious of the fact that our listener is saying her 16-year-old daughter is inquiring about connecting with her dad. Yeah, so I have a few thoughts on this. I can relate to it in some ways, but I just want to say that I would never, ever speak to my stepdad ever, ever again. And I will not go near him and neither will our family. So that's nothing to do with biological or step. It's what he did, what he did. And he is not a good person. And also he is very manipulative, which

is what your listener also said. So you've got to be very careful. My thoughts on this is that I think you should speak to your daughter, trust in your daughter, help your daughter understand why you left her father. I think that's really important. Trust in your daughter as well to make the right decisions because you can stop her now, but when she's 18, she can still go and try and find him or want a relationship with him. So if she really does want to try and meet her dad, I would support it. And the reason being is because if you don't support it, she might try and do it anyway behind your back

and then you won't be able to support her. So I think you've got to be really careful of the manipulation. I personally don't think she should have a relationship with her father. However, there's sometimes that curiosity and that need to know. She doesn't understand what you went through and why you left him. So she just sees it as like a curiosity to understand who she is. So I would talk to her and trust in her. I know you said she's having some vulnerabilities at the moment. I also relate to that.

I was very similar at that age. I had depression and perfectionist behaviours and also behaviours with eating. And I didn't get the help I needed for a long time and I should have done. So I'd say try and engage in getting her some help and some therapy and also support her through the process of finding out who her dad is and trust her to make the right decision. But I wouldn't really stop her, not because I think he should be in her life. I don't think he should be. And I think she'll figure that out herself. But preventing her might make her try and seek it in a way where you can't be there

to care for her and be there. So our listener says that her daughter is 16 and she uses the word vulnerable. Fiona, why do we think that her 16-year-old daughter is vulnerable in this case? I think in this case, it's probably about age. It's probably considering that she's 15 going on 16, that she hasn't had experience of relationships, that she currently is a teenager. There might be a lot of figuring out with regards to her identity, which is why I think it's no coincidence that she wants to meet her biological father now, because this is a huge part of our identity is getting to know where do we come from and who are these people that shaped us or didn't shape us. So I think,

and then the listener also mentions kind of problems with eating, which is a problem many people face at that age. So it's a lot to do with self-esteem and who am I in my community, who am I with my peers? So it's such an age where we're still moulded by so many aspects. And yes, being in a relationship with a person, what kind of relationship it may be that is manipulative, can pose a risk. And actually, that leads me on to the idea, Sarah, that, you know, how aware are teenagers in the UK at the moment when it comes to healthy relationships? I think not as aware as perhaps we'd had assumptions that they were. We did a piece of research at Women's Aid last year looking at attitudes and influences around healthy relationships in children and young people, which showed us that actually some of the attitudes that

underpin domestic abuse, there was still a level of tolerance in our younger generation. So it's as important as ever that we're having those conversations with children and young people. The piece from last year showed a correlation with exposure to online influences. So we used Andrew Tate as a proxy for misogynistic content, but he is not the only misogynistic content out there. It's that kind of influence of pornography online so where we're not having frank open conversations with our children and young people about what a healthy relationship is about what sex is in a healthy relationship they're finding it out somewhere else legislation is incredibly important when it comes to preventing domestic abuse isn't it but it's also this cultural shift that we need to see in our society it's about education isn't it as said, mirroring and reflecting what is a healthy relationship. And as you say, when it comes to sex as well, what's normal, healthy, happy sex. Finally, is there anything else that you would like to advise this listener to do in this situation? Yes. So I think I would definitely back

up what Charlie and Sarah have been saying about keeping the communication open, about making sure that the daughter doesn't feel she's put into a position where she has to do it behind her mom's back. And I think she has every right to want to meet her father, to want to find out what he's like, and also form her own opinion because she is a teenager right now. She is individuating from her mom. She might not take everything that her mom says at face value. And she needs to make her own experiences in relationships. So I think it would be really important to allow that contact.

Maybe be careful around the setup that you do it in. Could be only in public places. Don't let her go to his home alone. Maybe have a mediator so there's many things to do that you can make sure the daughter can make her own experiences safely because if she is denied that experience then she will most likely go and do it on her own and then the danger is that she then feels like she has to hide it from her mom and would be so good that she can come home and say, oh, he said this really odd thing, you know, like, I don't know what to feel about this.

And then they can talk about it. And the mum can then share her experiences as well. Let's talk a little bit about how our society views the victims of domestic abuse. We know that less than 24% of domestic abuse crimes are reported to the police. Sarah, why is that? That's extraordinarily low. It's really low and there's a raft of reasons for it and people can be not sure that they'll be believed. I think it's one of the most common reasons that we hear when

we ask that question of survivors in our research. There are also, particularly for back and minoritised women, they're even less likely to report to the police and there can be fear of racism both towards them and towards the perpetrator of a disproportionate response. One of the surveys that we did recently, a woman talked about having experienced domestic abuse in two relationships with a white man and with a black man and talked about a very, very different police response in both cases. And as a society, we need to have a police force that we can trust. So I think that is a huge part of the issue. Are we dealing with a misogynistic police force? I think to say otherwise in the face of the evidence that just seems to be constantly coming towards us would be foolish. We clearly are.

Sadly, we are, aren't we? We are. And initiatives like Domestic Abuse Matters training for the police that women's aid are involved with are so important because, again, we need to change attitudes within the police force, increase the priority that's given to domestic abuse. Just tell us more about the work that Women's Aid is doing with police training them. So Domestic Abuse Matters is a programme of awareness of domestic abuse. It talks a lot about coercive controlling behaviour and one of the aims is for police forces to have a much better understanding of how coercive and controlling

behaviour appears. The aim is to create cultural change within police forces and improve responses in that way. I think one of the key challenges with coercive controlling behaviour as a crime is that it's a pattern of behaviour, isn't it? We've talked about that a lot today. It's not an incident and police response is very much set up to respond to an incident. And police response is very much set up to respond to an incident. Charlie, you believe that domestic abuse is a root cause of so many other societal problems like knife crime and homelessness, etc.

Why do you think we don't focus on this enough as a society? I feel like we often focus on things as silos. So we look at domestic abuse as something that's just like between a man and a woman, which I feel in our discussion, we've changed that. It's actually, you know, for family, it's children. And I think it's also important to say that I do have brothers and it affects girls and boys as children, and they should both be supported. So when we look at domestic abuse, it's not women and girls all the time. It's really important that it's children as a whole. My brothers should be supported as well. So it can cause addiction because of the trauma that domestic abuse

causes. It can cause depression, as we've mentioned. I can speak for myself in that, post-traumatic stress disorder, anxiety, eating disorders, all of those things then spill out into the rest of society. It's one of the biggest causes of youth homelessness. So really domestic abuse sort of poisons the water of society, doesn't it really? It starts at home. Yeah, because that's how we're all raised. We all start in a home of some form and that influences our behaviours and how we deal with things. And so often children, I'll speak for children, how on earth are you supposed to understand your emotions? How on earth are you supposed to understand their environment? So

what you start to do is learn these maladaptive, unhealthy behaviours of how to cope. Tell us about your work with the government on the domestic abuse bill and the victims bill. So I advised on the domestic abuse bill. And then at the very last, the very last minute, I really hard campaigned, like so hard, because I really felt so strongly that children were left out of the conversation. So I pushed so hard. Other people did as well. And we as a collective got that through. And I know I played a big part because I was on the phone to Priti Patel

the night before we went through, trust me. So because I wanted children to be part of the conversation. And the other reason why is if children aren't in the definition, the funding wouldn't go to the children. So that was another reason. It's not just about this lovely definition.

There wouldn't be resources that go to the children. So that was another reason. It's not just about this lovely definition. There wouldn't be resources that go to the children. So that's why the bills are important, because that's where the funding goes. The victims bill, which you mentioned, is currently in the House of Lords. And at the moment, it's not going to make that much of a difference if they don't back it with funding. So at the moment, it's a great piece of paper and it looks great, but there needs to be funding underneath it so that victims and survivors get specialist support services and not just rely on charities like Women's Aid who are already at capacity. So you're continuing to campaign and lobby. Yeah, you can tell because I'm like, yes. I'll try. Your new book, Why It's

Okay to Talk About Trauma, outlines how it's possible to, in inverted commas, grow after trauma. What would you say to anybody listening who may be struggling with past trauma? That it's understandable, it's normal, and it's's okay you can't have gone through what you've gone through and expect everything to be fine and it's totally understandable so I think that's an important thing to say to yourself is go oh of course I'm feeling like this look at what I've been through and it's so hard I totally understand it's so hard to look at some of the most painful things that you've been through but actually to me that is how you understand you process and you work through the trauma and it's

really important that we work through our past and what we've been through to be able to kind of accept ourselves because within myself and accept is very hard, within myself, I had this like constant conflict. Like I felt like if people knew what I'd been through, then they would never speak to me. They would never want me to be on a podcast. They would never love me. They would never want to be my friend if they found out about my past. And so I hid it and became very ashamed of it. And as part of that became very ashamed of myself. What the book addresses is I feel like in society, we often talk about domestic abuse in the moment, but we don't often talk about the aftermath of what we're left with, of how to deal with all these things. And that's very much what my book addresses is, you know, you're out of the unsafe

situation, but your mind doesn't understand that you're safe anymore. And you have to learn how to feel safe again, how to trust again, and how to trust yourself as well is really important. Thank you, Charlie. Fiona, how can people survive and then go on to grow out of trauma? I think it's so interesting. We are so resilient as people. It's incredible to see and to hear stories of people who have recovered and what we actually can endure. So I think the first step always is acknowledging, realizing that you have experienced trauma, that you have experienced abuse, then it's about getting the right support. It can be in therapy, it can be in groups, it can be in your community. There's

many ways of getting support. We've mentioned many areas before today. And then hopefully, you know, as you start healing, as you start speaking about your trauma, some might achieve what we call post-traumatic growth. So it's kind of that making meaning, finding purpose from your experience. It doesn't mean that you say it was a good experience, but maybe if you become an ambassador or you start helping other people, and this can give you meaning about your experience. Not everyone will experience meaning, not everyone will experience growth from their trauma. So it's really important. We can't force that onto people. But I think in order to continue living a meaningful life, it's really important to make sense of your experiences,

gain a deeper understanding, connect the dots, and then hopefully you can grow from that. Finally, Sarah, how can we support somebody who we think may be the victim of domestic abuse? And what resources are there available? So in terms of resources I will refer listeners to the Women's Aid website in the first instance just we have a directory there which lists national helplanes, regional helplanes, all the local services that are available. You can also find live chat if you prefer to communicate in that way or a survivors forum if peer support is what you're looking for. So there's a raft of support available for everybody. There's the National

Domestic Abuse Helpline, there's the Respect Helpline for male victims, the Gallup Helpline for LGBTQ people, and a raft of local ones as well. In terms of if you know somebody or you think you know somebody who's experiencing domestic abuse, I think the single most important thing you can do is be there. Keep those lines of communication open. Don't judge. Listen, validate, believe. And don't expect somebody to necessarily leave straight away. I think we've talked about that today and it's so important.

It's a journey. And a survivor is the expert in her own safety. So being there and keeping that channel of communication open and look after yourself. Domestic abuse affects friends and family as well. Charlie Webster, Sarah Davidge, it's been a pleasure to have you both on the show. Thank you for everything that you've shared with us today. But most of all, Thank you for everything that you've shared with us today. But most of all, thank you for your sustained work to prevent domestic abuse and to protect women and indeed everybody from violence. And of course, Fiona Kao, thank you for giving us your psychological expertise as well.

If you've been affected by domestic abuse or you would like more information, visit the UK Women's Aid page to speak with a support worker. We'll leave a link to the website in the show notes. I'll be back next week for another episode of It Can't Just Be Me. In the meantime, please continue sending your voice notes. You can get in touch at itcantjustbeme.co.uk or you can email me at itcan'tjustbeme at podimo.com. I know we say it every week, but this show is truly nothing without you. And if you want to see more of the show,

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and Christy Calloway-Gale. The editor is Kit Milson. The executive producers for Podimo are Jake Chudnow and Matt White. The executive producer for podimo are jake chudnow and matt white the executive producer for mags is faith russell don't forget to follow the show or for early access to episodes and to listen ad free subscribe to podimo uk on apple podcasts