It Can't Just Be Me - 39: The Cult of Wellness? With Charlotte Church and Michele Knight

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hello, it's me, Anna. Before we begin, we do mention domestic violence in this episode, so please listen with care. We all want to feel good, and with just a cursory look at social media, it feels like there's always something we could be doing to benefit our mind, body and soul. From mainstream therapies like yoga, meditation and reiki, to things like penis facials, bee sting therapy and vagina sunbathing. But the quest to feel our best can come at a cost. Here to unpack the world of wellness, spirituality and radical healing is Charlotte Church, superstar singer and founder of the wellness and healing center, The Dreaming. Plus, we have psychic astrologer, Sunday Times bestselling author, and my very good friend, Michelle Knight.

Starting point is 00:00:51 Welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. Hi, Anna. Hey, Anna. Hey, Anna. Hi, Anna. Hey, Anna. Hi, Anna. Hi, Anna.

Starting point is 00:00:58 Hi, Anna. It can't just be me who's really struggling with staying faithful. I definitely got menopause brain. I really want children and he doesn't. I had feelings of jealousy. It's just all around the middle. I feel like a Teletubby. And then I hated myself for feeling that way. If you've got any advice. I would really appreciate any advice. It can't just be me. It can't just be me, right? Just Be Me, right?

Starting point is 00:01:29 Charlotte, voice of an angel church, and my spiritual guru, Michelle Knight. Welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. How are you both? I'm very well. Really good. I have to say, Charlotte, you've got the face of an angel. You're looking incredibly calm and incredibly zen. What is that all about? Is that your penis facial?

Starting point is 00:01:48 It's these Welsh hills. It is the Welsh hills. It suits you, darling. And how are you, Michelle? Very, very good. And I have to say, I would say goddess, not angel. Forest goddess. She is, isn't she? That's amazing. The empress, darling. Now, as you know, I always start my episodes by asking my guests for their very own it can't just be me dilemma. So let's start with you first, Charlotte. What's yours? It can't just be me that thinks that plastic plants are literally signalling the coming of the apocalypse. Do you know, I think you might be right right I've got a real thing about plastic plants I don't

Starting point is 00:02:26 understand why anybody would represent nature in a plastic way yeah I think it's like it's literally the antithesis of of everything that we should be doing in order to like save this incredibly glorious rich diverse planet and uh yeah plastic plants is just like it's the absolute pits and are you the kind of person that will go into a bar or an office that has nothing to do with you and start watering their plants yes absolutely if there's if there's a plant in need then i am i am tuned in to uh i look at my plants all day long and i feel like there's all sorts of communications going on which are just below sort of conscious awareness of readings go in both ways i should imagine do you know i've got a plant at home that i rescued because it was looking a little bit sad

Starting point is 00:03:20 in somebody else's house and i repotted it and he started to thrive I call him he he started to thrive and now he keeps giving me loads of babies he just is really trying hard to keep sprouting leaves and I talk to him every day I'm like give me another baby you're incredible so I know I hear you with the plastic plants so it isn't just you Michelle Knight what is your is your It Can't Just Be Me, Darling? I'm not saying mine now. You told me it was supposed to be light and fluffy, and now we've got, like, real stuff to talk about. But before I say that, my wife actually has a plant hospital in the castle.

Starting point is 00:03:56 So she's got a whole room. Any slight suffering, that plant is taken there to rest and recuperate. Oh, I love the fact that Cathy does. I didn't realise that she's got a plant hospital. amazing that's like a whole tv series plant hospital so what's your what is your it can't just be me my very superficial it can't just be me thanks is it can't just be me that literally and i'm not exaggerating has half a million unread emails and it has gone too far i don't even know what to do they're just there every time i open it up they're there but you

Starting point is 00:04:30 got too many i've tried and it just can't cope oh it doesn't delete it i'm it's like the plastic plants it's just going to get worse and worse there's just more and more and more of them every day they're just going to keep on sprouting so you physically can't keep up with deleting it's gone it's just you know do you know I have to say I think that is just you I would love to know I'd love to know if anybody else listening has half a million unread emails and I'm not exaggerating at all when it's getting By then it'll be 600,000. I love that. I love that. Now, let's move on. Charlotte, I really want to start with you because I know you as a musical prodigy. So actually, I'm intrigued to hear more about your spiritual awakening. And I noticed just before we came on air that you've got these two amazing snake tattoos on your arms so you are definitely

Starting point is 00:05:25 growing into a bit of a goddess vibe just talk to us a little bit about opening up your healing center the dreaming when you had your spiritual awakening because you were brought up a catholic was religion a big part of your upbringing, would you say? I think it was in a way that it created community. So lots of like my first singing performances and stuff were around the church socials and that sort of stuff. I went to church every Sunday till I was 12 with my Nana. But I found it incredibly boring. Apart from like maybe I really liked the frankincense the smell and the whole theatrics of it like that I suppose a little bit but yeah

Starting point is 00:06:14 it's so so I don't think that my spiritual awakening is necessarily rooted in religion at all but I'm just going to interrupt because I can completely identify with what you're saying. Because my father is a priest. I was brought up in the Church of England. And, you know, I'm exactly the same as you. I went to church every week as a child. And even though, obviously, as kids you find it a bit boring, I loved the smell of it. I loved the pageantry of it.

Starting point is 00:06:41 I loved the tradition of it, the performance of it, and the community, as you rightly say. We lived right next to the church. It's interesting that you've gone on to be a performer. I've gone on to be a performer. So I think that there's something about that church upbringing that does inform you if you've got that in you as being a slightly theatrical person. Do you not think? Absolutely. you know a slightly theatrical person do you not think absolutely and I think that's you know because built into it I think that you've got there is a lot of singing and as you say there

Starting point is 00:07:11 is sort of like a lot of storytelling as well I think that even if you aren't necessarily digging it very hard as a teenager all of that is going you know, we're very permeable as young people. So yes, so religion, I suppose, set the scene. But really, I think it is nature, and my understanding of the feminine and the divinely feminine, which is an actual, you know, quite a big counterbalance to the rhetoric of lots of our religious upbringing, particularly in Christianity, which is quite different, I suppose, to that. So at what point did you connect with that wider sense of the spiritual and how much of it is informed by the fact you're Welsh?

Starting point is 00:08:00 I think that I've always had it, and I think we all always have had it but I think that for me music that it's been music throughout my life which has really enabled me to connect with something much deeper or much higher or however you want to sort of characterize it but yes music is the catalyst music first and then nature was sort of my second awakening when I really started to look around me and understand you know this incredible tapestry of richness and complexity and beauty that that what that I was submerged in actually, I'd lived a very indoor existence for large swathes of my life. And then as soon as I had my eyes open to nature, then I was just like, yeah, absolutely divine. Tell me about your healing center,

Starting point is 00:08:59 The Dreaming. And how did The Dreaming come about? How did the dreaming come about? So the dreaming came about, I think, I've always had a deep want to soothe and to balm in ways. I think that that's what my singing was when I was a kid. So actually, you've had this drive to heal. Yeah, I suppose. I'm not sure if I always would have categorized it as that. I feel like it was just, you know, when I was young, it was very much other people put that onto me. People who would be like, oh my gosh, you've killed me of brain cancer.

Starting point is 00:09:39 And oh, you know, when my grandmother hears your voice, she's got Alzheimer's. It's the only time we sort of get a reaction out of her. So I grew up with a lot of those sorts of stories directed at me but to be honest they made me feel a bit weird as a little one but it's only as I've gotten older that I've realized ah it is it's always been there and it's like a deeply programmed calling I suppose or at least seek of mine in which to um try and a balm, try and be, help people to connect with nature, I think, connect with music, connect with singing and song, but also to connect with beauty, because I find the beauty deeply soothes me. And so I'm trying to create those experiences for other people where they are so submerged in something that's so extraordinary.

Starting point is 00:10:26 So maybe it's watching a sunrise and, you know, chanting at dawn with a group of other people in this beautiful place in mid Wales, which all of a sudden just even though it's very simple, those couple of elements just make it transcendental. And then you've got people who are just like oh my gosh look how beautiful this life is I think you've just you've just hit the nail on the head there Charlotte which is there's the transcendental isn't there about you know that when you're singing you have that transcendental experience and then with the dreaming and the therapies and the the the workshops that you do and immersing yourself in nature, it's transcendental. So I understand that word. I understand what it is you're trying to do there. But Michelle, moving on to you,

Starting point is 00:11:13 I know that you had a very, very difficult childhood, which at times was deeply traumatic, and you've written about that in your autobiography. And you have turned your life around into something exceptional and extraordinary. So just fill us in a little bit about what role did spirituality and psychic ability play in your life growing up? Well luckily even though I had those horrendous traumatic experiences from a baby upwards. My mother was a very powerful psychic. And so in the house, there'd be psychic readings, tarot cards on my playthings. And actually, regardless of all the chaos and the terrible things, my intuition was luckily very much more open than most people get the chance to be. So my intuition saved my life numerous times. Oh, really? In what way?

Starting point is 00:12:06 So give us an example. Like, for instance, when my stepfather was, like, literally axing the whole room and chasing my mother, I had this sense I knew what I had to do. So in this instance, it saved her life. So he opened the door just a crack, and I looked at him, and I felt this love come through me.

Starting point is 00:12:28 And it came through me and it came out of my eyes. And I looked at him and there was just this power of love. In fact, it changed my life, that experience. And he was mesmerised by that for a moment. And my mother climbed out of the hatch, you know, back in the day, the 70s hatchet. Yes, yes, into the kitchen. And we escaped. Wow.

Starting point is 00:12:46 So that's really interesting that you felt a power coming through you that was pure love and it stopped your stepfather in his tracks. Yeah. Absolutely extraordinary. You now run some very successful businesses, including Michelle Knight Psychics. Why do people go to see Psychics for readings, do you think? The reason I set up my psychic company is because there was a lot of dodgy psychic companies and there was a lack of ethics in the industry in general. And I wanted it to be different.

Starting point is 00:13:20 So I wanted to set something up that would have very high standards and would be 21st century. So yes, you tell people things they couldn't possibly know about the past present, but you empower people to be able to use their own intuition, transform their own future by looking at past patterns as well, seeing what's coming up. Because actually, when something comes up, you know, it could be really bad and shocking. But if you know about it, and then you talk through how you can handle it, that's the difference. So in a sense, you're saying you set up a 21st century psychic company, where you're using intuitive ability, along with psychology to actually empower people. So rather than just using prediction or cold

Starting point is 00:14:06 reading you're going actually this this is a therapeutic service in a sense I'm empowering people yeah so if someone says to you oh I've got a grandfather here and I'm getting the shiny shoes loved a cup of tea I'm getting roses in the garden I mean we don't want that we want very very specific details about your your past your dynamics with your parents that you couldn't possibly know it and you don't say it they say it to you so it has to be proof-based and then empowering i think now's the time to move on to the dilemma and we've had some very interesting uh dilemmas that have come in about this subject. So let's first hear from an anonymous listener who is sceptical about his partner's beliefs. Hi Anna, I had a bit of a shit time last year. Got made redundant from a job

Starting point is 00:14:53 I loved and I've been struggling financially since. It's also made me feel really really lost as a result of this. My partner is really big into alternative therapies and manifesting and we've been fighting a lot she spends a lot of money on things like acupuncture and expensive wellness retreats that she wants to go on and to be honest i'm baffled that she's spending that kind of money when one of us isn't really in any money she's convinced that i need to well manifest myself out of the rut she keeps saying to me to trust in the universe and to visualize what i want but isn't this school of thought a bit dangerous when bad things happen to good people all the time and it's out of their control and what if someone doesn't want

Starting point is 00:15:45 to hear it for example she's been telling her sister who's who's about to give birth that she should manifest a positive pain-free labor which really seems ridiculous to me i feel like it's a bit it's a bit cultish and i can't really get on board with it. I just want to rant to the person I love about how shit this is for me, but I can't. I mean, what can I do to change my outlook about this? Or if I can't, do you think two people with such different beliefs can really think about building a life together? Okay, so let's first talk about the elephant in the room here, which is the money this listener's partner is spending on wellness retreats and therapies. So to put this into context, the wellness industry is worth around $5 trillion worldwide,

Starting point is 00:16:41 which is extraordinary. So clearly, there's money to be made. Charlotte, as the owner of a healing retreat, how do you square being a business with a higher spiritual purpose and helping people? I think that's a really great question. And everything that you do has to be based in values and ethics. So at The Dreaming, we've got a pay what you can space on each retreat, we've got a sliding scale price range, I'm not interested in just being a placing of the rich, like we were doing much bigger, more important work here. There is a phenomenal amount of spiritual bypassing that goes on within the wellness industry. What do you mean by spiritual bypassing? That's interesting.

Starting point is 00:17:28 I think that loads of people are making a large amount of money in every area possible in the wellness industry with who are badly, who are badly intentioned, who are, you know, that it's all about capitalism. It's all about the sort of, you know, manifest abundance sort of rhetoric. You know, there has to be an underpinning of all of us doing our part to like deeply, deeply help people and deeply help towards the liberation of all people. deeply help towards the liberation of all people and and that means being politically active that means being like ethically sound that means proportioning like off parts of your profits and such making sure that you are affordable for for some things at least um so i really think that it's much the same as anything once, rampant capitalism gets its hands on anything, it knows no ethics, it knows no morals, no values, and it knows no limits. And that is why we're in such a pickle worldwide.

Starting point is 00:18:45 that this absolutely fundamentally quintessentially aligns with your values and your beliefs. And you're saying the point of my business here is to make it affordable for those people that need healing in inverted commas. And I offset any of my profits to charity because that's what's important to me, that I'm not just a profit making machine. Yeah, absolutely. And we're only in year two of our business. So we're not making any profit. We're not washing our own face yet. But as soon as we do, then a portion of that is going to go straight to indigenous, different indigenous tribes throughout the world, because that is one of the best ways that we can impact climate instability. For me, one of the one of our biggest problems, particularly in the UK, is the stratification of society. So that, you know, the wealthier with the wealthy and the

Starting point is 00:19:31 poorer with the poor and all of that sort of stuff. And so how are we creating situations constantly where everybody's breaking bread around the table, everybody's having these amazing experiences together that bond beyond all of the ways in which you you would generally be separated and so yeah I think that there are a lot of people in the wellness industry who who aren't who aren't doing that stuff and so I think that to seek those people out it's very important otherwise it can feel a bit cultish. Interesting. Michelle, what would you say about this? I 100% agree with every single thing you said. It's incredibly important. All of us coming together, whenever I've done workshops, there's always been a free space.

Starting point is 00:20:16 So it's important to you that you're giving back and that you're being inclusive for everybody. And I think anybody with a soul that's doing this work, it's absolutely natural because, you know, we're empaths. That's the whole point of it. You know, we feel and we care. And that's the meaning of it all. So, I mean, it does feel a little bit like it's become cool to be spiritual now and everybody's talking about their shaman or their healer. Do you welcome this trend, the both of you, or do you worry that actually it's just become a bit of a tiktok craze i think it's scary i think more scary than ever before for me because when i go on tiktok and i see some of the things that are being said absolutely outrageous like oh you've

Starting point is 00:20:56 got the evil eye on you if you're scrolling past this video it means you've got the evil eye on you that makes my hair stand up on end, you know, because you're projecting that negativity. There's a thing called, I don't know if you've heard of it, a nocebo, which is the opposite of placebo. Yes. And it's just like the placebo works. If you are pouring negativity, oh my goodness, it's so destructive. So yes, I'm terrified. So you find it worrying about the nonsense that's coming out on social platforms. What about for you, Charlotte? I mean, just going back into what we were saying about, you know, the charlatanism within the wellness industry. Does it worry you the kind of stuff that you're seeing on social platforms? Sure, absolutely. But I think that, you know, in a way, it's to be expected, you know, the social platforms, our social media stuff, it's all the technology.

Starting point is 00:21:49 It's so young. You know, we're so human centric. We're so egocentric as humanity that we think that we're the absolute bee's knees, we're the smartest in existence. But, you know, humanity itself is very young in comparison to our cousins in nature, whether that's trees or whether it's birds or whatever. And the more we understand about the systems of nature and how complex they actually are and really what's going on. So I feel like I don't despair about it. I do feel a bit like, you know, it's the Andy Warhol thing coming to pass, isn't it? Everybody's having their five minutes of fame. Everybody's, it's all these false gods, you know? So I feel like it's not great. And it's definitely muddying the waters. And it's very confusing for a lot of people, particularly for our young people who are really impressionable, we are really lacking the elders and also the relationship building because none of this knowledge, none of the good stuff, none of the good knowledge to pass down has any depth really, unless it comes with relationship, we can only ever move at the speed

Starting point is 00:22:59 of trust. So yeah, even if it is good information no if there's no relationship behind it then even that becomes a bit shallow so yes whilst i i do i am a bit like oh gosh how is it all gonna go um i do i do have at the end of the day total faith that we're just quite young and uh that nature and the systems of earth will find homeostasis, homeodynamics, like balance within the ecosystem. So the second trigger that our listener talks about is being told he can manifest himself out of a rut after being made redundant. Now, I know manifestation is a bit of a sort of buzz topic at the moment. Michelle, I know that you're writing a book about manifesting. So first of all, tell us what is it exactly? It's about the ability of being able to transform your reality and create the things that you desire.

Starting point is 00:23:57 But I believe it's not a superficial act. It's a multi-layered act that takes into account the way your brain works, reprogramming your brain from the negativity, which is scientific fact. It's about understanding the quantum universe. It's about, to put it simply, it's about being like a beacon for your desires and drawing towards what you want. And presumably also taking action. Absolutely. I think a lot of the problems about manifestation that's out there at the moment is this idea, and I think our listeners touching on it here, that manifest your way out of this negative thinking and the fact you've been made redundant. Well, actually, this is about not just visualising a great life, it's about taking the

Starting point is 00:24:41 action, isn't it, to change your life. So it's empowering. And also reprogramming yourself, which has multiple benefits. But I'm just going to give you a couple of examples of the absolutely incredible things that I manifested. When I was a single parent living in a council flat, somebody said to me, and I was in a really, really bad space at the time. And they were from Tob time and they were from Tobago and they were telling me these stories of Tobago so I was like I really want to go to Tobago within two weeks I got a phone call from my friend and she said oh I've just won this competition which is actually to go to Egypt and I said oh hang on a minute I didn't order Egypt I ordered Tobago and I said do you think we could go to Tobago with you winning that?

Starting point is 00:25:26 And she rang up, she was working for a big soft drinks company, she rang them up and within three weeks I was on a beach in Tobago. In fact, I was so freaked out, I couldn't really get into it until the last day because I was like, you know, but this happens to me a lot. Because you knew from a very young age that, you know, but this happens to me a lot. Because you knew from a very young age that, you know, you changed your name to Knight. You had this vision and this knowing that everything would work out well for you. And you have created a life of extraordinary abundance and wellness and happiness, haven't you? Through giving back and through love.

Starting point is 00:26:02 And I truly believe that. And that's the key. But, you know, the point is, you know i i left home at 13 i was homeless when i was eight months pregnant climbing into squats you wouldn't have looked on paper and think that my transformation could be like that but within that time all these extraordinary things proved to me that manifesting exists so it's complicated and it is political. You can't strip it back into just, it's all about me. One of the most powerful things about manifesting is scientifically proven that we all are one and can become one. Like, I'm sure you've heard of it,

Starting point is 00:26:41 but if not, it's called entrainment, brain entrainment. So when people sing together, all of their brain synchronizes to exactly the same wavelength. And, you know, my big passion is that we all work together, right? Because it's deeper than I believe it's deeper than our brain just joining forces. I believe we're very powerful and together we can evolve the whole to grow in love. And, you know, that is that is part of the process. We are not single dots, just doing things for ourselves. The more we join together, the more we synchronise, the more that we can create bigger changes. Charlotte, do you believe in the power of manifestation? Is it something that you endorse at The Dreaming? you endorse at the dreaming it's not something that we do sort of um in a sort of direct way but i like to think of it like what you pay attention to grows so i'm a big believer in you know really honing one's awareness and attention in a sort of buddhist sort of way i

Starting point is 00:27:42 suppose and i'm undecided but then I'm undecided on a lot of things and the way that I view life and particularly with sort of spiritual wellness practices and stuff, particularly the things that I think are just a little bit outside of my realm of understanding currently is just that it's more scientific

Starting point is 00:28:00 to entertain everything. So really, I just see it as a veritable buffet of delights. So you're curious, you're saying that I'm, I'm openly curious. Yeah. And whilst I don't, I don't feel like I've manifested anything like cleanly, you know, you know, I have set my intentions and my attention on something that I want to do. intentions and my attention on something that I want to do and then I then I have worked diligently towards it and it has come into being I mean the dreaming as it is when I first started thinking about the dreaming envisioning it and how it was going to be and how it was going to feel and and really feeling that on the land being on the land and just feeling how it was going to feel

Starting point is 00:28:44 when we opened then within the first couple of months, it was just like, oh my gosh, it's exactly it. This is exactly how I thought it would be. And I suppose that is the first time that's ever happened to me. And so maybe that could be considered manifesting. Yeah. Finally, this dilemma is underpinned by a very big question. Can two people with very different core beliefs build a life together? Charlotte, what do you think? Well, what I would say is that generally not necessarily. However, what it seems to me like is that potentially he might need to shake off a little of that cynicism and embrace the receptivity, the feminine a little more, because actually he doesn't seem to be very fulfilled in what's happening for him currently. And so I think shaking off cynicism, particularly for men, is very important. And so however he can do that, however he can open himself up, I would say go with her,

Starting point is 00:29:53 because there is so much joy and delightfulness to be experienced in these spiritual wellness areas. So I would say, yeah, give in, surrender. What is the one piece of advice to both of you that you'd give to our listener in this situation? Michelle, if I start with you. I think that he needs to respect her desires, but also it sounds to me that there's not much communication. Communication is key to intimacy. And, you know, it's about respect. And it's about actually saying, I feel vulnerable in this situation. So for him to be maybe more aware of his vulnerability, and to talk it out from the heart, there's a very, I mean, he probably won't be into this, but there's a very good technique that you can do, where you place your left hand on your partner's heart with your right hand over it and vice versa and you eye gaze and you send the love to each other and if you do that

Starting point is 00:30:50 before a conversation again your brains are on the same wavelength and it's much easier to communicate so there's something important I think give it a go start to explore the mysteries of life so so communicate better perhaps be a little bit more curious about why she's believing some of these things. And in terms of because he asks, how can I get out of this mindset? I think there is something about perhaps trying to be more curious about different beliefs. Charlotte, what would you say? What's the one piece of advice that you would give to our listener? I would say there's a Buddhist concept called beginner's mind. I'm talking a lot about Buddhism. I'm not at all like, you know, Buddhist.

Starting point is 00:31:32 I'm just very interested in all sorts of different things. But beginner's mind is the idea where you come absolutely brand new, absolutely fresh to a problem, an issue, a dilemma, whatever it is, with no preconceived ideas. You just try and behave as though you're completely brand new. And so what that might do is A, enable some of that cynicism to melt away somewhat for him to be able to genuinely hear her passion and her excitement around what she's got going on with her with her manifesting and then yeah potentially to to have a sort of more intimate communication around the exploration of the mysteries as you say michelle which is um a wonderful thing in a partnership to explore together. Okay, we've had a second dilemma in, it's on a similar theme, from a listener who's concerned about how frequently his partner is going to see a psychic. It's anonymous. So in this instance, our producer is reading it out. So let's hear it.

Starting point is 00:32:44 Hey, Anna, my partner goes to see a. So let's hear it. Hey, Anna. My partner goes to see a psychic at least once a month. Now, I wasn't bored at first as the visit seemed to cheer her up a bit and give her a sense of direction for the weeks ahead. But it's costing her a lot of money and she's become very dependent on what her psychic says to her and it's prompting her to consider some fairly drastic life changes. It's like her psychic's word is gospel. And I'm a little concerned

Starting point is 00:33:05 that the person she goes to see isn't genuine and might just be cold reading. Should I suggest she cuts ties with this person and starts to see an accredited therapist instead? Right, straight off the bat, Michelle, I could see you nodding. I imagine you have a lot to say on this one. First of all, what do we actually mean when we talk about a psychic in inverted commas? It seems to be an umbrella term for lots of different abilities. So what do we mean by that? Well, I think many people have different perceptions. From my understanding, it's someone who can tune into the past, present and future very specifically. So you get a medium that it connects with people on the other side. A psychic is somebody that talks about your past, present and future.

Starting point is 00:33:47 Specifically, we're saying this is somebody who has an ability, the intuition to be able to read your past, your present and potentially your future. What checks do you do on the psychics that you employ? Because this listener is saying, I'm really worried that this person's not genuine. What checks do you do? Well, this is why I do it the way I do it. They have five readings. Test readings.

Starting point is 00:34:11 Yeah, without the person saying anything. And they have to pick up on very specific, unique details, not generic ones. Also, I have had psychics that have passed all of those tests and come to me because they've given amazing details. But I felt that they weren't emotionally intelligent and therefore it's a no because as i was saying before you are there to empower you are not there to give your opinion you are not there

Starting point is 00:34:35 to take away someone's empowerment you are there to empower the person to make the choices that they want to make with all the information given to them. So it's, you know, it's a thorny subject because there are so many inauthentic psychics out there. I agree with you. I totally agree with you. I mean, you know, I've met and worked with a lot of psychics and a lot of mediums. And I have to say, I think I've only met maybe a handful where I've been absolutely thrown by their ability where I've thought I genuinely don't know how you got that information about me so Charlotte do you believe in the ability of psychics I think that I've always been really curious and had, I had one reason when I was about 16 in Hawaii. And she said, she said something about my granddad having like some sort of illness starting in his throat,

Starting point is 00:35:34 and then literally, and that he needed to have these tofu smoothies. It was so specific. And then literally weeks after my Bambi developed throat cancer, or at least we found out he had throat cancer. And so then I used to make my Nana make him these fruit smoothies with tofu in them, and he recovered, and he was, you know, all good. But you had no idea at the time. You had no idea that your granddad was ill. No, nothing at all. It was really amazing and bizarre.

Starting point is 00:36:00 And she said some other things to me as well that really made sense, really made a lot of sense of my of my life and where I was at and almost like having more of a zoomed out view of what was going on in in my life which I found really helpful at the time but then you know then much the same as you guys are just talking about I've also spoken to people who were clearly cold reading and it was just a bit general and vague and that's a real shame then isn't it because it really clouds um the people who are doing this really amazing or who are gifted in this way I've also got friends really good friends

Starting point is 00:36:38 who who don't do it for a living at all but who are clearly very naturally um to just have the ability have some sort of like channeling ability or seer ability and so that's been really interesting them just giving me tidbits throughout my life you mentioned cold reading charlotte michelle just just give us a bit more about that um what is cold reading and how do you spot it it's using generic information like like i'll I get a John here. Or was he in the military? Yes, a military gentleman here. You don't want that.

Starting point is 00:37:11 You want very specific details. And for me, the readings aren't about what technical information you can give. It's about empowering, healing, intense, transformational reading that helps people burst out of their shell into their power. That can burst out of their problem, I guess. So, Michelle, do you think that people can become addicted to psychics when really they should be seeing a therapist? 100%. And again, in my company, if people overuse we say look you're you know you've spent too much and also it's not useful because things don't like interestingly I had a client years ago who for 10 years wrote down every reading had a tape of every reading I did back in the day

Starting point is 00:37:57 and then we had a conversation she said what's interesting is over those 10 years things I said maybe nine years ago happened but but not necessarily next week. Time is very soupy. So everything happened, but it was over different periods of time. So you can get very confused if you go too often. And also then you can start sending out the wrong energy because a lot of people can ring up because they want to get someone who can give them what they want to hear. So all of that is deeply unhealthy, but it can be just as addictive as a gambling addiction or anything else. 100%. So yes, there is reason here to be cautious in this dilemma. And I think that, you know, they need to have a conversation. You never give your power away to a psychic. And if a psychic starts taking your power,

Starting point is 00:38:40 manipulating you, having a judgmental opinion, all of those are massive red flags and it ain't a parade. And do you have red flags when with some of your clients where you think, look, you really should be seeing a therapist? Yes. And we recommend that. And we have a list of, you know, help numbers and organisations. 100%. Charlotte, do you think there would ever be a place for psychic readings at the Dreaming? There is a therapist, a psychic that we work with called Dr. Kate Thomas, who is absolutely extraordinary. And so I absolutely think that that could be for, you know, private clients, somebody who wanted something else or something that was more along those lines. Then that would be absolutely grand. Yeah. private client, somebody who wanted something else or something that was more along those lines, then that would be absolutely grand. It's out of our three pillars being sound therapy,

Starting point is 00:39:35 nature and ceremony, but I suppose it could be ceremony in a certain context. Finally, the pair of you, what one piece of advice would you both give to this listener about his partner who he feels is becoming dependent on her psychic? Again, I don't think it's necessarily up to him. All of these dilemmas are about having a conversation. Otherwise, that's disempowering. Oh, you can't go and see the psychic. No. But I would suggest to his partner to give it a rest for six months or a year.

Starting point is 00:40:04 Follow your own intuition. learn the tarot, do things so that you've got information now, you know this stuff works, now find it in yourself, and you will be amazed at what you can achieve on your own. Charlotte, what would you say? I would probably say there's something that we do at The Dreaming called listening partnerships, which is where you have a conversation with somebody, but rather than asking more questions, you're just like reflecting what they're saying back at them. And therefore, that person who is talking is feeling really understood, really heard, really seen, really validated validated and then they tend to go a bit deeper into what's actually going on I hear what you're saying so you're saying maybe communicate better

Starting point is 00:40:51 with your partner to understand why she's being compelled to go and see her psychic so frequently and just the active listening of have talked to me more about what's going on for you yeah absolutely just to just to find out what's what's the deeper thing there that's going on, what is she getting from it? And that helps, you know, you can move from a place of deep understanding. Fabulous advice. Charlotte, Michelle, thank you both for being here today

Starting point is 00:41:20 and sharing your personal stories as well as your expertise with us all. I am grateful to both of you for making so much time for us. And thank you for listening. If anything has resonated with you today, then please do get in touch and tell us. We love to hear from you and we read everything that comes our way. In the meantime, I'll be back next week with a new episode of It Can't Just Be Me. So please keep sending us your voice notes.

Starting point is 00:41:46 You can get in touch at itcantjustbeme.co.uk or you can email me at itcantjustbeme at podimo.com. And if you want to see more of the show, remember you can find us on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube and Facebook. Just search for It Can't Just Be Me because whatever you're dealing with, I promise you, it really isn't just you. From Podimo and Mags, this has been It Can't Just Be Me, hosted by me, Anna Richardson. The producers are Laura Williams and Christy Calloway-Gale.

Starting point is 00:42:18 The editor is Kit Milsom. The executive producers for Podimo are Jake Ch chudmo and matt white the executive producer for mags is faith russell don't forget to follow the show or for early access to episodes and to listen ad free subscribe to podimo uk on apple podcasts

It Can't Just Be Me - 39: The Cult of Wellness? With Charlotte Church and Michele Knight

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