It Can't Just Be Me - 41: Why do I feel so lonely? With Gaby Roslin

Episode Date: March 27, 2024

Last week, it was reported that the middle-aged population in Britain is the loneliest in Europe, so Anna has invited TV presenter and broadcaster, Gaby Roslin, to interrogate why that might be. Gaby is passionate about curbing the epidemic of loneliness, which can impact people of all ages and looks different for everyone. In this episode, she shares some of what she’s learnt from her investigations into loneliness – including tips on how to prevent it, as well as explaining just how detrimental loneliness can be for both our physical and mental health. Alongside super-psychotherapist, Sam Pennells-Nkolo, Gaby and Anna offer advice to a listener in her 50s who feels lonely, despite having a busy and full life with family living close by. The trio offer her words of encouragement, recommend some strategies that might minimise her sense of loneliness, and suggest places where she could meet some like-minded folk. This is our final episode for this season of It Can’t Just Be Me, so we’ll be taking a short-break. But, fear not… we’ll be back soon! Stay subscribed to keep up to date with all future episodes.—Have questions about sex? Divorce? Motherhood? Menopause? Mental health? With no topic off limits, Anna’s here to prove that whatever you’re going through, it’s not just you.If you have a dilemma you’d like unpacked, visit itcantjustbeme.co.uk and record a voice note. Or tell Anna all about it in an email to [e-mail] podcast contains adult themes that may not be suitable for children. Listener caution is advised. Please note that advice given on this podcast is not intended to replace the input of a trained professional. If you’ve been affected by anything raised in this episode and want extra support, we encourage you to reach out to your general practitioner or an accredited professional.From Podimo & Mags Creative Producers: Laura Williams and Christy Callaway-GaleEditor: Kit MilsomTheme music: Kit Milsom Executive Producers for Podimo: Jake Chudnow and Matt WhiteExecutive Producer for Mags: Faith Russell Follow @itcantjustbemepod and @podimo_uk on Instagram and @itcantjustbemepod on TikTok for weekly updates. You can also watch the full episode on Youtube. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Before we begin, a quick note from me. We're going to be taking a short break after this episode, but don't worry, because we'll be back soon with a brand new season of It Can't Just Be Me. Vogue Williams and Sue Perkins. We've tackled big topics like romance scams, ethical porn and the menopause. Plus, we found answers to all of your burning dilemmas along the way. So just click the subscribe button to be the first to know about new episodes. Now, on to the final episode of this season. Last week, new research revealed that the middle-aged population in britain are the loneliest in europe when we were talking about this in the office my producers asked if i was surprised that midlife loneliness is something of an epidemic in the uk and honestly i can't say that i am because it's something that i've seen take root in many different forms in my own circle loneliness

can be hard to pinpoint and it looks different to everybody. It's not just someone sitting at home on the sofa with no one to call because you can feel just as lonely in a room full of people. It's also cross-generational. Today I'm joined by someone who's helping to break the taboo on loneliness, TV presenter and broadcaster Gabby Roslin, who once upon a time was also my boss. Welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. Hi Anna. Hey Anna.

Hey Anna. Hi Anna. Hey Anna. Hi Anna. Hi Anna. Hi Anna. It can't just be me who's really struggling with staying faithful. I definitely got menopause brain.

I really want children and he does it. I had feelings of jealousy. It's just all around the middle. I feel like a Teletubby. And then I hated myself for feeling that way. If you've got any advice. I would really appreciate any advice. It can't just be me.

It can't just be me, right? Gabby Roslin, you picture of health and joy. Welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. How the devil are you? I'm really well, but even better for seeing you because I just adore you. Well, likewise, and actually lots of people won't realise this, but when I started out my career in broadcasting, I was a baby researcher on the Channel 4 show, The Big Breakfast, all those millions of years ago. And you were the star presenter.

You weren't researching babies. That sounds like you were a baby researcher.'s true that well yes and yet with that show in so many ways it could have been it could have been um but I was a researcher junior researcher so I was only I was only little and you were the star presenter that word is silly isn't it I mean come on Chris and I did the show when we had the best time. It was an iconic show. It was a shocking show in many ways. It was an utterly entertaining show. It had huge viewing figures. It was the show of the 90s.

And I learned so much from watching you. No, but I learned so much doing it. And it was like nothing else had been on television. And I don't know if that much is like that now. I think everything's a bit safe. But I say that, I'm very openly, I say that I think everything's a bit safe. Do you think that we've sort of lost our balls, as it were, when it comes to just doing it and having fun?

I think that we're not quite as ready to be naughty. And I use the word naughty. I think it's a really good word. And I'm still naughty. I will always be naughty, think it's a really good word and I'm still naughty I will always be naughty no matter what age and it's naughty with a small n and I just think it's important that that we're just a little bit naughty yeah and I don't mean rude and I don't mean horrible because I don't like all of that mischievous and just naughty and what was lovely this morning is when we all met you came in with your new book spread the joy i know because i promised it to you because we bumped

into each other and danced in the street a few weeks ago and i and we were talking about the book and i said i'll give it to you and then i did and i actually carried it on the tube backwards and in my coat i thought i don't want people to think i'm going oh look it's my book it's my book but this is so you. And again, going back to The Big Breakfast, what I remember of you and watching you very carefully, actually, is even then, you really do walk the walk. You are authentically you in terms of positivity, optimism and joy. You were never, and I really mean never, and it was a stressful show. Never. And I really mean never. And it was a stressful show. You were never rude or stressed or unpleasant. You were always so calm and smiling. And I really mean that.

Well, because I love what I do. And I used to apologise for years about saying I'm happy until mum died. And then I decided I'm never saying sorry for being happy. And every journalist went, oh, you're always so happy. I know, I'm so sorry. And then when mum died, a few weeks later I was asked, they said, oh, you know, I'm so sorry for what you've gone through. It was with Richard and Judy. And I said, thank you very much. Yes, it's been a horrific time.

Mum and dad with cancer. And actually, yeah, I am happy and I'm really lucky to be alive and I'm never apologizing again and I never have since did you know what that's so true isn't it that actually we're lucky to be alive and so every day we should we should be grateful and happy for that I need a teaspoon of your joy and I must remind myself to do that every day because I think naturally I'm quite grumpy are you really well well maybe no I don't think you are no I think that I'm probably because my mum said that when I was little I was quite grumpy. Are you really? Well, maybe. No, I don't think you are. No, I think that I'm probably because my mum said that when I was little, I was always sort of very eager to please and I was always quite jolly. But I think as I've got older, I'm sort of becoming curmudgeonly and I don't want to

be a curmudgeon. Isn't that weird? Because I wouldn't think that of you. Talk to my boyfriend. Definite curmudgeon. I know where he lived. I really do. But you're not. I don't think you're curmudgeon. I know where he lived. I really do. But you're not.

I don't think you're curmudgeonly. I think you've got opinions, which isn't a bad thing. And I'm going to hang on to those, Rosalyn. I'm hanging on to them. Now, listen, every week I ask my guests to share their very own it can't just be me dilemma. And I'm intrigued to know what yours is. What have you got?

I've got it in my handbag. Props! Yeah, no, because it's true. It can't just be me who carries my ice cream spoon in my bag. Now, I've not been stumped before in the 40 episodes of this show that we've done, but you have your very own ice cream scoopy spoon well because I don't like plastic waste and I love ice cream so I go on and on and I've been studying health and nutrition since dad had bowel cancer and I go on and on and on about cutting out sugar doing you know all the

things which I feel really strongly about I don't drink. I've cut out so many things. It's life choice. But I love ice cream. So years ago, when I got a pistachio ice cream, when we were on holiday in Italy, I said, I don't want another plastic spoon. This is combustible. So I still carry it around, so I don't have to get another one. And you never know where there might be an ice cream shop. And I can just pop in and go, hello hello have you got pistachio ice cream I heard compostable as combustible then so I thought you've got an exploding ice cream spoon in your bag but also pistachio ice cream delish yeah my favourite now if you told me when I was a child that I would like green nutty ice cream or that I would eat eggs and spinach for breakfast I would have just gone yeah and here you are yeah you do you know what

Gabby Rosin I'm gonna hand it to you it is only you who carries a plastic combustible ice cream spoon in her handbag congratulations you are the only person that's actually totally taken me back and surprised me a lot. No, I was going to give you another one. The other one was that pickled cucumbers dipped in vanilla ice cream. Okay, that's wrong. That's wrong.

And I'm delighted at this point to bring in our resident psychotherapist, Sam Pennell-Zancolo from the London practice. Welcome back, Sam. You've been listening in very patiently instead of shaking your head in disbelief. She was shaking. I always delight to be here. How are you?

I'm good. I'm good. Do you have a compostable or combustible spoon? I don't. No, I can't say that I do. See, it's just me. Have you ever tried pickled cucumbers in vanilla ice cream? I haven't. Trust me, it's like the salty chocolate. I don't like chocolate.

But the salty chocolate that people like, it's the same idea. I'd far rather just have a salted caramel, you know, sweet. Will you trust me on it and try it? I will. Thank you. Okay, on to a slightly more serious topic. We are talking about loneliness today. And according to the charity Campaign to End Loneliness, over 3 million people in the UK suffer from chronic

loneliness. And just last year, the World Health Organization declared that loneliness was a global public health concern. So this is serious, and we don't tend to talk about it. Gabby, I know that you are very keen to raise awareness about loneliness. Why? Because of people talking to me about it. So I walk everywhere and I bore everybody about the fact that I walk for miles to meetings, to work, to shows. And when I walk, people talk to me and they always have done, even when I was a child actually. But people talk to me and they always have done even when I was a child actually but people talk to me and they tell me things and I'm suddenly realizing that a lot of people were telling me how lonely they were and they were feeling on their own they didn't use the word

lonely they were saying oh I've got nobody I can talk to oh I don't ever see anybody and this has been exacerbated by the pandemic, obviously. And then I started researching it and I did a lot of reading and the statistics are shocking. You quoted 3 million. That's of people who talk about it. So there's millions of other people who don't. And it was only last week it was declared that the UK is one of the unhappiest places in the world. It was declared that the UK is one of the unhappiest places in the world. Also, loneliness is a taboo word. People are terrified to say that word.

I then went to Morning Live where I work on the show on the BBC and I said, please, I really want to do something about this on the show. So we went off and we did some film with TFL, Transport for London, and with a young girl who has the Lonely Girls Club. And then I went off and I met a lovely man who was in his 80s who has nobody. And he talked very openly about it. He can't get out of his flat. His local council have community visitors for loneliness, which is fantastic. But also the most heartbreaking story I heard was only last week and a woman of 93

who has no one since her husband died when she was in her early 80s the only person she speaks to the only part this is going to break your heart is the checkout person at the supermarket and she hasn't it makes me ah she hasn't celebrated her birthday since her husband died her children live abroad so the only person that ever wished a happy birthday was the girl at the supermarket checkout and they're not there anymore because they have automatic checkouts yeah it's so weird that you should mention that because I was having exactly this conversation with the cab driver as I was coming into work this morning about our lack of connection and automatic checkouts and how this is removing human connection. Human connection is so important and people are suffering. This has to stop. We have to do everything we possibly can. I want us all to do something. Sam, as a therapist, how would you describe loneliness and how does it impact us psychologically?

I suppose people talk about it again. Sometimes I don't use that word, but they'll say I feel empty. I feel lost. I feel purposeless. I feel like I don't know who to talk to. And even when I do talk to people, I feel like it's a bit fake. So psychologically feeling isolated, and then not being a meaningful connection. There's this lack of connection, but a lack of connection in, I suppose, with ourselves. So if we can't connect to ourselves, it's very difficult to connect to another. So what is going on here? Because obviously, Gabby, you're saying that we are one of the unhappiest countries. Sam, you're saying that people are talking to you about this in therapy. What is going wrong? I think it's very difficult because on one hand,

you've got like the rise of social media and the rise of things that I suppose inverted commas are not real often people say I spoke to them or I talked to them what they mean is they message them they whatsapp them and so that's not talking to them it's not the same thing but it's become sort of normalized but then you've got oh no I don't call people I don't want to speak to you on the phone I don't want to see people they don't they don't phone each other. They speak to each other, which is Snapchat, WhatsApp, whatever. I mean, there's so much to discuss here. But let me ask you both a very personal question, which is, do you feel lonely or have you felt lonely? Gabby?

I'm very lucky that I can say that I haven't. I think because I've worked now for the past few months so much on this project that I have questioned that and thought, have I? Maybe as a teenager, I felt removed because I was not cool. All I wanted to do was be a television presenter and listen to musical theatre. Everybody else was listening to Bob and going out and smoking and drinking and taking drugs. I was the straightest. I still am the straightest person. So I felt slightly removed. But I had friends. I had a small group of friends, not a big group of friends, very small group of friends. So I was very lucky. So I don't think I ever felt lonely. It's interesting, though,

isn't it? Because as you say, trying to pinpoint what loneliness or feeling alone is so for you you're saying no I don't think I've experienced it but I've felt removed sometimes yeah as a teenager and it's making and I'm very shy very very shy but that doesn't mean lonely it's really making me question this as well actually and and the meaning and the interpretation of the word but Sam do you feel lonely or have you felt lonely? I think I felt lonely or a feeling of aloneness more as I grew up so again I have a very lucky and fortunate to have a very tight group of friends from childhood and we're still friends now so it's real genuine connection not based on status what we're doing our jobs it's not based on any of that we just are friends because we like each other. But there's been moments where I've been taken out of that safety and

been in big groups of people where I felt a lack of connection. And for me, that's what feels, I suppose, if you want to use the word lonely, where I don't feel connected or I feel like the conversations might be forced or I'm not getting fed. So I don't feel nourished by the conversation. It feels very kind of empty. That's where I felt kind of, oh, I don't feel nourished by the conversation it feels very kind of empty that's where I felt kind of oh I don't want to be in this situation anymore and I take myself out of it but you're still having there's still conversations going on so a lot of people who are desperately lonely and suicidally lonely yeah have no there's no conversation going on yeah I mean it's I guess it's a scale isn't it because I'm thinking of what you're both saying. And even though, you know, we all do a similar job, because Sam, as a psychotherapist,

you're connecting with people every day. Gabby, you and I, our job is to communicate. And yet, I think I could probably say that a lot of the time I feel lonely. But now I'm questioning it thinking, actually, is it about being, as you say, slightly removed, or not connecting, Sam, as you say, so somehow not connecting Sam as you say so somehow not being fed so I think maybe that's closer to the truth of just feeling like I've got lots of friends and my job's very sociable but sometimes I feel outside but that's that is a scale isn't it because what you're saying Gabby is that some people don't have anybody. And then you get to the point of utter isolation.

Yes, but also there's no sort of this is loneliness. Obviously, there's a definition in the dictionary, but I think it can be many things for many people or just one thing. So I don't think we're the people to judge whether or not there's a scale. I think there is a scale, but lonely can be, as you say, when you feel not nourished, unnourished, or it can be complete isolation. So I don't think we can judge and say, well, your loneliness isn't as bad as that. Absolutely, totally.

Now, talk to me about the fact that the World Health Organization has said that loneliness is as bad for your health as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. Why is loneliness bad for our physical health? Do we know? I mean, there's lots of secondary things that come up. So if you're like lonely and you don't go out and you don't see people, it affects our confidence. So if we're not talking to people, we feel like we can't talk to people. So we sort of stay indoors, possibly. We might eat more or not eat enough. It affects people's sleep. It affects people's immune system. So it's all of that combined that. They don't feel good enough. They feel worthless. So our behaviors start to emulate those feelings. When we feel isolated and lonely, we feel like we're not good at conversation. What am I going to say to people? How are they going to feel when they're with me? And then that just continues.

I'm going to eat, like I said, or naughty or bad habits, etc. Yeah, it's diet is a big thing for loneliness, but also exercise and sleep. So those three things which we now know are really vital for longevity and for our health, our everyday health. If you're going to be knocking those, this whole knock-on effect. And if you're feeling isolated

and you're unable to go out and you've got no one there who's able to take you out, you're not going to have any exercise either if you're older. And we all know now, we've all read enough about how important it is to move every day. Absolutely. And if you can't do that. I mean, all of this sort of spirals off into a whole other debate because my father is about to be 83 he has vascular dementia and he is now you know quite unable to move actually just because of you know his his age and that he's had a few strokes and I think about him all the time just sitting in a chair just not being able to get

out of his flat and how isolating and lonely that must be if you physically can't move there are lots of uh local councils have physiotherapists for older people and the physiotherapists who go in and do exercise with the older people and also communicate with them and talk to them i know a lovely physiotherapist who does exactly that and part of her job is to talk to them as well i mean that's not part of her written job. But for her, that's what she does. We know from this latest research that the middle aged population in Britain are the loneliest in Europe. What is it about being middle aged that makes loneliness more of a risk? Do you think? I think we're the, and I hate the expression,

the sandwich generation, but we are the sandwich generation. You've got the children who have left, you've got your old parents who you're caring for, and you might not be working anymore, out of choice, or maybe not out of choice because of ageism in this country. And we all are totally aware of there's ageism here. And so suddenly you're there. You're at home. Your kids don't need you. Your parents, you need to look after them. So that's absolutely exhausting. You might be on your own in a relationship. You can be a single parent, male or female, and you are not working anymore. So suddenly you're there. Bang. Okay, what do I do? What am I for?

Who am I? What's my purpose other than just caring? That's very interesting. What do you think, Sam? Have you got anything to add to that? Yeah, I think a lot of clients will tell me, okay, I've done all the things that I'm supposed to do. Got married, tick.

Successful career, tick. Big house with kitchen line and tick. And I still feel empty. Is that a tick? That's a tick apparently. The home renovations. They keep saying, and I still feel empty that's a tick apparently the home renovations they keep saying but I haven't got that feeling I'm waiting for this feeling to come this sort of I still feel empty essentially I still feel that okay I've done all these things that are supposed to make me happy or supposed to make me feel something but in a way

I've done all these things and I feel worse because I've hit all the tick lists, but I still feel nothing or it's not good enough or I feel lackluster. And then you're in this weird stage of, okay, I've done these things that I've been told and I still feel unhappy. And I think it's that, it's like, okay, you get to 40, 50 and be like, what's it all been about? I also, I think another side of it possibly is about success and how people perceive success. And there are a lot of people that think, well, I haven't been a success because I haven't earned the money that I'm supposed to or I haven't done this. And then they feel alone because what is success? Exactly.

And actually, you can have little successes every day, but it's very hard. It's about shifting the way you think. And on that note, you are utterly positive, you are optimistic, you always have been. You've said that you now absolutely regard your status as happy because you are alive and we are grateful for that. Could positive psychology help when it comes to being alone? Yes, but also the being honest with yourself. so the big thing I'm working on is people re-owning that word and feeling that there's no taboo if a friend of yours were to look at you and say I'm so lonely what would your reaction be would be no you're not you're because that's

a sort of natural reaction but how brave of that person to say, I am lonely. I mean, that to me is, that's incredible. But also being positive. It's about, and I do talk about it in the book, but the little things. It's no secret how close I was with Paul O'Grady. And he died a year ago on Thursday. And I remember speaking to a friend of mine. I said, oh, just, I can't, I can't phone Savage. I can't believe I can't phone Savage, which I called Paul. And she said, remember about the leaves and that every leaf is different. There are no two leaves that are the same. So just for a moment, have a look at the leaf and then look at another leaf and think, oh, and just for that split second, you've taken yourself out of the sadness,

out of the loneliness, out of the worry, whatever it is, and you just have that moment. You've just succeeded in having a moment to yourself. Into the now, bringing yourself into the now. And when you walk, feel those footsteps. And when the sky is blue, seeing a bright blue sky lifts the mood. Seeing bright colours lifts the mood. And nature as well.

I mean, Sam, do you believe this, that it's as simple as reframing things and your thinking? I think it can be. I think sometimes. I think people again. It's not every time. Yeah, I think it's sometimes, but I think it's habit as well. So like you'll get people that will say, you know'm just selling that's just how I am it's like well you weren't born like that yes but I think it's about yeah trying to look for the good rather

than to be entrenched in the negative which our brains are that's how we're geared to be we're primed we're primed to do that so just to encourage people and be like but actually there's this this and this so we can just look at it as as a. And again, it's not to negate your negative feelings or it's not to push it away and pretend it's not there. It's just to look at the other side as well. So is there an alternative? Is there another side? Is there? Let's just look at that so that it's a full picture. People can get quite sort of narrow into this sort of thought process and how they see things. It's a habit. So can we look at it on a surface level as can we change some of those habits, which might make you feel a bit better, which it does. I think faking it is very dangerous. So I mean, I go on about that in the book as well. And I think that because I always talk about

if you and there's science behind this as well, that if you wake up in the morning, the very first thing you do before you look at your clock before you pick up your phone because everybody does is you smile just a tiny smile and it makes your brain just go oh i feel good and then when you walk out of your bedroom and you look in the mirror do not think oh my fate oh a spot on my hair, oh, my... You just smile at yourself. There's science behind it. And you feel better. And then you have to cope with all the crap.

We're absolutely aware. And it's really hard for a lot of people. So, the least lonely countries in Europe include the Netherlands, the Czech Republic, Croatia and Austria. And the Netherlands has a national coalition against loneliness. And they've got schemes going on where they've got things like chatty checkouts at the supermarket, or they pair, I love this, they pair older people with a busy person's dog during the day. Why are we getting it so wrong in the UK? So wrong.

It's really, really shocking. They also have libraries where people talk to each other. That's how it should be. We've got to start doing more of this. The difference is extraordinary because you see the figures of suicide, the rates of suicide. Yes. And the fact that I'm sitting across the table from you talking about young people killing themselves because they're lonely, we have to do something. Well, as you say, it's cross generational as well. And you mentioned earlier on that

we experience ageism in this country, and I think particularly as women. Do you think that ageism contributes to our lack of happiness in our 40s and 50s? And have you experienced it? Do you know what, I'm very lucky that I'm still working. Yeah. So I haven't. But I know a lot of female friends of mine who have not just in our industry, but a lot of friends of mine, I've got a friend of mine who's a lawyer who they said yeah but you know you're not you're just a bit old to be doing this that actually has happened to her i've got another male friend of mine who works in the city and he's got to the stage now where he just because the the young lads who are there are in their 20s and he's only in his late 40s and they're going come on old man you need to rest so he's finding it as well 40s and they're going, come on, old man, you need to rest.

So he's finding it as well. So you said just for women, I think it's across the board. It's across the board. Yeah. So Sam, is ageism something that's come up with your clients at all? I mean, it has more so with women, I have to say. It's not something that I don't think actually a man has ever said to me, interestingly, women will say, I mean, I've had a client said to me once, you just wait. You just wait until people just don't notice you anymore, till you walk around and you don't get that acknowledgement based on looks, based on age,

based on the fact that they don't feel attractive anymore. So that's definitely come up. And in work, depending on the sort of job that they do, they'll say, I feel like I'm past it now because younger women are coming up. They're more attractive than me. They've got more to offer because of how they're perceived. And then behaviour can then in turn start to reflect that because women start to feel insecure. Yeah. And that plays out in performance. So it does come up.

It's interesting because, you know, as a woman in my 50s, I've never particularly experienced this ageism, but I think I'm starting to weirdly. Oh really, how has it? I think that I'm very aware of and being made aware of the fact that there are younger people coming up behind you who have bigger social media profiles and therefore they are, in inverted commas, worth more because they have a bigger following or you've got to look a certain way. It's been quite odd for me to suddenly think, oh, hang on a minute, I'm being potentially replaced by somebody much younger

because they've got just a social media profile or they look a certain way. You know, in many countries around the world, people who are older are seen as the people who can help teach yes and then but also young people can teach us things so I get really excited my producer of my Sunday radio show they're younger than me and I like that because they're teaching me new things I find that really exciting of course but not at the expense of you no but also I'm only 33 every

birthday well that's true yeah I forgot that. You're right. Do you know why I do that? It's very funny. I don't feel the age I am. I'm very lucky to be alive and to have lived this long. I'm nearly as old as my mum was when she died. But I'm just 33 in my mind. So I'm just going to say I'm 33.

I quite like that because in my head, I'm 27. There we go. Stick with that. Okay, we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be back shortly to share a listener dilemma. Isn't it funny how your day can be so much better just by being in a good mood? That's why Everyday Positivity is a great way for you to start your day. I want you to think of it like a mini shot of positive thinking with me. Hello, I'm Kate Cocker. Everyday Positivity is the show which equips you to think of it like a mini shot of positive thinking with me. Hello, I'm Kate Cocker.

Everyday Positivity is the show which equips you to deal with life as it is, building strength and resilience, looking for the glimmers of joy and celebrating the good stuff in life. It's there, I promise. You know, positivity is a skill. It's something that you have to practice. And this show really helps you to remember to be kind to yourself every day. So I'd love to meet you. Come and join the Everyday Positivity community. Make Everyday Positivity part of your daily morning routine and add me to your roster

of podcasts. It's really short, so I'll squeeze very nicely between two of your favourites. You can find Everyday Positivity wherever you get your podcasts every single day. I'll see you there. Have a great day. And remember, you have 100% got this. Welcome back to It Can't Just Be Me. I'm here with Gabby Roslin and psychotherapist Sam Pennell-Zancolo from The London Practice. We have a dilemma in from a woman in her late 50s who's struggling with loneliness despite being surrounded by people who love her. Hi Anna, I'm 59 years old and I'm struggling to deal with the fact that I'm lonely despite having a very full life. My children are grown up, they live close by and have children of their own who I see quite a lot.

So I don't know why I feel so alone when I have such a close family unit who are all within walking distance. The only thing I can think of is that I don't have many friends and I think it's difficult to make new friends at my age. I put myself out there recently, invited someone for coffee, but I found the small talk exhausting and it actually made me feel worse. Kind of like I'm on the outside of life trying to get in. I live on my own, so I find myself on Facebook in the evenings in the hope of connecting with the outside world again. So I go to bed feeling sad and alone. Any advice? This is the story I hear again and again and again.

I mean, I think what's so fascinating about this is what we touched on earlier on, really, which is our listener's got a very full life. You know, she's got her family, her kids are within walking distance, but she still feels lonely. So, Sam, what's your initial reaction to this as a psychotherapist? I think I would explore, again, what that means for her. So when she says lonely, how does she experience it? When does she feel it? Often it's late at night, early in the mornings. So when they first get up and when they go to bed, they kind of review the day and think, oh, I haven't really had any meaningful connections. So on a surface level, I'd say, and I always say to people, it's about action. Okay, so you went for one coffee. And I know it's hard to put yourself out there and

it's painful, the small talk. I'd say, okay, maybe that didn't go well. Let's go for as many people as you can. Treat it as an experiment. Go for coffee. See who you connect with. What does it mean to connect with them? And to look inwards.

What do I want? People find that question really confronting. If I say, wave a magic wand. Your day's a perfect day. What does that look like? What does it feel like people always say i don't actually know so we're looking for this thing but we don't really know what we're looking for that's just to look sort of inward which is a bit of an abstract concept i suppose

but it it makes people think well as you say it's that magic wand question of you know if i could wave a magic wand and you've got all the money in the world and you could create your perfect life, what would that look like? And when people say, gosh, actually, I'm not sure, then yeah, you really have some work to do, don't you, in terms of what is your purpose and what is your meaning in life? How important is it to make and keep friendships? And how on earth do we do it in middle age uh again i talk about it in the book i think the really one of the most empowering things is to say no there can be people around you either at work or or in your friendship groups or parents at the school gates or whatever wherever anywhere that can be quite toxic i know that that's sort of an in word at the moment.

And you don't want to see them. You can say no. In the same way that you see people that you actually want to spend time with, look at them and say to their face, do you know, I really like you. I want to be your friend. I've done this recently with a couple. I've got a couple of new friends and we, it was somebody at work and we were talking and I said, you know what, I really like you. And she said the same thing. And then we saw each other about a month later, we went out for lunch and I said, I think we're friends. And she said, I think we're friends. And it was a really empowering thing to do. You know, it takes balls to say something like that. There need to be more groups. There need to be more one-to-one. So that the

woman that we just heard from then, she said she went out once for coffee. Try again, please, please, please try again because there are other groups. But where do you find those groups? On Shop Smart Save Money coming up in a future episode, we were talking about e-readers and we met three incredible ladies from a book club they have about 400 members they do it online but they've started doing meeting up there's another one for young people I think it's called it's hard back out here and they're a young girl and I think she's 23 she started it up and they're all now meeting in bars and talking about a book. And there are people who do cinema clubs. And I think cinemas should do it where people go in, they see a film,

and then they all talk about the film afterwards. If you do that once a week, you've suddenly got a connection. Volunteering is another thing. So I was very lucky to spend the day with the Royal Voluntary Service. And they are incredible, the work they do. So I met all of these people who volunteer, who make lunches. It's a lunch club. They make lunches for people who are on their own and can't make lunches. So there was a gentleman with his wife who had dementia. There were lots of people who lived alone and had nobody apart from this lunch club,

and it cost them five pounds. And they went along and they got a three-course meal but also it was helping the volunteers and the volunteers now had a community because they had nothing I have to say that all these people were were women but they they all had no children at home anymore they didn't have jobs anymore and suddenly they had purpose and they were all meeting people and they'd all become friends and they were all going to the cinema together. So it was just wonderful. And I think also with volunteering that you have to be able to say, that makes me feel good.

And don't feel guilty about it making you feel good. It's like taking something to a charity shop and talking to the person in the charity shop. And you walk away and think, wow, okay, I feel good. Well, also also I mean psychologically Sam we know don't we that by giving that gives us a sort of massive boost of dopamine doesn't it yeah I mean charity workers are so much happier people that help being useful helping others makes us feel good about ourselves because it's a cycle you feel good other people feel good and it sort

of just spreads but it's a strange guilt that people feel as if they're supposed to feel this sort of nothingness. I'm giving it, I'm being selfless. Yes. And it's like, no, we help each other. And that's how it works. Absolutely. I mean, I was brought up in the church. So, you know, my father's a vicar, as you know, Sam.

And my mother was an RE teacher. So we were very community based. And it was all about going to the church hall and being part of a community and sort of giving back and it was it was idyllic really as a childhood just being connected well a lot of community comes from a lot of the religions there's a lot of community through religion and obviously people are turning away from religion so i'm sure that there's a knock-on effect from that that's very interesting isn't it let's talk about social media because our listener says that she's on social media in the evenings looking for connection it's a big question

can social media help us feel more or less alone I think it's both I'm sorry I'm it's a real cop out but um but I'm very blessed by the community who get in touch with me and their honesty and their openness and they do feel that they have a connection and recently i posted something um at the weekend asking a question that i i haven't stopped thinking about it if you had a box of everything you've lost what would be the one thing you'd look for and um somebody contacted me on there and said that they'd lost their husband. And it was only two and a half hours before I posted this. And they had a connection because suddenly I was saying, I'm so sorry, my deepest sympathy sending you hugs. But a lot of people then spoke to this

person. Now, I know it's not real. And there's no human connection. But in that instant, in that moment, they felt that somebody cared. Now, if that's what you need to feel a bit better about your life in that moment, then that's wonderful. It still has value, doesn't it, for sure. But it's using it all the time. That's what worries me. So according to research, limiting people's time on social apps to 10 minutes per day has been scientifically proven to reduce feelings of loneliness and depression. Apparently, 30 minutes or less a day is the sweet spot. Does that resonate with you, Sam?

Definitely. I've had countless, I cannot tell you how many sessions have been taken up due to social media. Really? Shocking, shocking. Where people will get their phones out, show me pictures of people, things that they're comparing their life to. See, that's very worrying. What starts going on is you start looking at other people's life and thinking you know what goes on when you don't. It's a snapshot. It's a second. It's a moment. It's a picture. what goes on when you don't. It's a snapshot. It's a second. It's a moment. It's a picture.

And then we start creating what we think their life is and what we think our life should be in comparison to them. And I just have to say, stop looking at it. Okay, girls, let's have some solid tips for how to combat loneliness. Sam, what would you suggest to somebody listening who might be feeling lonely or alone? I think if you can get out so again it's a different question if you know you're at home and you can't get yourself out if you can action action action it's do something go to a cycling club go to the gym go to cinema volunteer just do do do do do and often people like oh but is that distracting from the loneliness or the pain it's like it's fine it's. We're looking at a surface technique for now just to kind of get you out there.

But a lot of it's about confidence. People have long conversations about, I don't want to go out or what should I wear? I'm not feeling good about myself. So I'll try and sort of really encourage people, just get out, do something, anything where you're talking to people. And then it just sort of spirals into sort of a good snowball

where you start to meet people, you feel better about yourself, you do more things. And I would say limit, you know, your time on social media. So just get out there, take action, do something. Gabby, what would you say? I mean, you're the expert. Well, I'm going to echo exactly the same thing. Get out if you can. Just go and sit in a coffee shop and just say hello I had a message from a woman the other day who said that she goes to gigs on her own and nobody speaks to her and I have to say I don't think a gig is necessarily the right place because there's music going on and they're followers of that band and they're not going to want to talk

and I said to her why don't you she says she likes to go out for a drink go for a drink on your own at lunchtime start lunchtime because evenings are scarier. Start at lunchtime and just sit there with the tonic water and say, hello. And she said, oh, I'm scared. I said, yeah, of course you are. Of course you are. You know, anybody would be scared. I don't like going to a restaurant on my own in the evening, but I do it on the tube.

If you're on the tube, wherever you are in the UK, whether it's the tram, if you're on a bus, whatever, try and just say hello. Yes. And say, how are you? Because those are really important for you to say, how are you? And then somebody to answer and then you to listen to their answer. And then if they ask you, you tell them the truth. So it's about talking. I go on and on and on about talking and listening.

So find somebody to talk to. And if you are on your own in your home, local councils have a lot of community-based projects, whether it's the physiotherapist that I was talking about. There's lots and lots of lots of people who do home visits as well. There are lots of charities out there. And again, I always go on about it, but Samaritans, 116 123, if you've got nobody to talk to, please call them. And also my brother is a social prescriber. And so every GP surgery has a social prescriber there now. It's absolutely fantastic service.

And my brother was saying to me that he gets an awful lot of people coming to the GP who are lonely. And he is there to help them get back out into the community and signpost them to various projects that are happening. So I echo absolutely what you're both saying as well. Go to your GP, go and speak to your social prescriber. Gabby Roslin, Sam Pennell-Zancolo, thank you so much to both of you for coming into the studio today, first of all, and doing this face to face rather than over a screen. And also for being just so brilliant and open and passionate about the epidemic of loneliness.

Thank you, both of you. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for listening. If anything has resonated with you today, then please do get in touch and tell us. And that's it for this season of It Can't Just Be Me. We're taking a short break,

but we'll be back soon with new episodes. So please send us your voice notes and your dilemmas. You can get in touch at itcantjustbeme.co.uk or you can email me at itcantjustbeme at podimo.com. And if you want to see more of the show, remember, you can find us on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube and Facebook. Just search for It Can't Just Be Me. And in the meantime, remember,

whatever it is, it really isn't just you. Remember, whatever it is, it really isn't just you. From Podimo and Mags, this has been It Can't Just Be Me, hosted by me, Anna Richardson. The producers are Laura Williams and Christy Calloway-Gale. The editor is Kit Milson. The executive producers for Podimo are Jake Chudnow and Matt White. The executive producer for Mags is Faith Russell. Don't forget to follow the show or for early access to episodes and to listen ad-free,

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