It Can't Just Be Me - 6: Envious of my stepchildren? With Kate Ferdinand

Episode Date: May 31, 2023

This week's dilemma is one of the rawest we've had so far, so we brought Kate Ferdinand (the queen of blended families!) into the studio for some expert support. Listen in as Anna and Kate help out a step-mum who admits that when her stepchildren are around, she resents not being her partner's 'number one'. Along the way Kate discusses being step-mum to footballer Rio Ferdinand’s kids, and shares some of the challenges she’s faced.  Anna and Kate are joined in the studio by the brilliant psychotherapist Sam Pennells-Nkolo from The London Practice.Kate Ferdinand is a big advocate for championing and celebrating blended families. You can hear more from her by listening to her podcast Blended, or reading her book How To Build a Family. Kate’s latest book, The Family Tree, is out on the 8th of June. …Have questions about sex? Divorce? Motherhood? Menopause? Mental health? With no topic off limits, Anna’s here to prove that whatever you’re going through, it’s not just you.If you have a dilemma you’d like unpacked, visit itcantjustbeme.co.uk and record a voice note. Or tell Anna all about it in an email to [e-mail] podcast contains adult themes that may not be suitable for children. Listener caution is advised. Please note that advice given on this podcast is not intended to replace the input of a trained professional. If you’ve been affected by anything raised in this episode and want extra support, we encourage you to reach out to your general practitioner or an accredited professional. From Podimo & Mags CreativeProducer: Alice Homewood with support from Laura WilliamsEditor: Kit MilsomTheme music: Kit MilsomExecutive producers for Podimo: Jake Chudnow and Matt WhiteFollow @annarichardso and @podimo_uk on Instagram for weekly updates Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Do you know what? I think the voice note I'll be sharing today is actually the most honest and raw one that we've had on the show so far. It's all about blended families and what it's like to be the dreaded step-parent. Are you ready to get started? Welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. Hi Anna. Hey Anna. Hey Anna. Hi Anna.

Hey Anna. Hi Anna. Hi Anna. Hi Anna. It Can't Just Be Me, who's really struggling with staying faithful. I definitely got menopause brain. I really want children and he doesn't. I had feelings of jealousy.

It's just all around the middle, I feel like a Teletubby. And then I hated myself for feeling that way. If you've got any advice. I would really appreciate any advice. It can't just be me. It can't just be me, right? My guest today is the absolutely sensational Kate Ferdinand, who you may remember from her days as Kate Wright on TOWIE, aka The Only Way Is Essex. But I think it's fair to say that her

life has changed a lot since then. Nowadays, Kate is raising not one, not two, but four children. And as if that isn't enough, she also has another little girl on the way. But Kate's family isn't a conventional one. Three of the children she's raising belong to her husband, Rio Ferdinand, and his late wife, Rebecca, who very sadly died in 2015. Kate, though, has totally owned her role as step-mum, working hard with Rio to build a loving, nurturing and supportive blended family. But it isn't always plain sailing. And just like our listener dilemma today, in the past, she's struggled with it, making her the perfect guest to offer some advice today. Kate's podcast, Blended, a new book, How to Build a Family,

are all about her experience growing her own blended family. And for anyone with kids, Kate's second book, which is a children's book, will also be out this year. It's called Family Tree, and it's all about celebrating blended families too. So now I've sung her praises to the high heavens, let's meet the woman herself, mum and step-mum extraordinaire. It's Kate Ferdinand. Lovely Kate Ferdinand, welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. Welcome to you and Baby Bump, I have to say. How are you? Thank you for having me. I'm good. I'm awake. I've been very tired.

Have you? Yeah, I had a little nap in the car on the way here, I've got to be honest. Is that with the baby? been very tired. Have you? Yeah, I had a little nap in the car on the way here, I've got to be honest. Is that with the baby? I think the baby's just, you know, all of a sudden I've been, I've had been energised and all of a sudden I've got to a little bit of a lull. But I'm happy to be at the house, been on holiday with the kids, had a great time. But it's nice to have a bit of adult time. So I'm happy to be here. Well, listen, we're very excited to have you on the show today because as the host of Blended podcast, you're kind of the queen of blended families. And we've had a voice note dilemma all about the ups and downs of the step parent relationship. So we are desperate for your advice today. Oh God, that's pressure. It is pressure. It is pressure. But before we get to that, every week I ask my guests to bring in their own, it can't just be me dilemma. So what have you got for us today, please, Kate?

I think the one for me is like repetitive sounds. Whether that's like eating, tapping your hands, tapping your foot, tapping your phone case, any kind of repetitive sounds. You're going to get really pissed off in my voice then under the next hour. I'm really sorry. No, as long as it's not the same thing.

Rio taps his foot a lot as well. One of my children likes to fidget with their phone case and I can't handle it. So, I mean, this is a nightmare for you because you've got like millions of kids at home. So how do you deal with the repetitive sound thing? Well, I obviously need to get over it, don't I? Because it's not going to change anytime soon.

Well, listen, hopefully we're not going to do too many repetitive sounds for you today to drive you insane. But I do need to gently nudge you towards the job in hand and focus on the dilemma of the day. And to help us keep that focus and also to give you a little bit of private therapy, we're joined in studio by psychotherapist Sam Pennells and Kolo. Sam, welcome back. Hello. So happy to be back. Well, you helped us out earlier in the series, so it's lovely to have you back. And thanks for coming in. I always feel safe when you're here with us today. All right, girls, today's dilemma is from Claire. Now,

Claire met her husband when they both had kids from previous relationships. So she is now a mum and a step-mum. And I think it's fair to say she's finding it a little bit difficult. Let's find out more. I'm Claire. I've got my own beasties myself. And I'm a stepmum to two boys as well with my husband. And it's about four years, four years that they've been in my life. I have had a number of challenges with becoming a stepmum.

But the biggest one and the one that's caused me the most conflict is the guilt and the self-hatred that has come from having the feelings that I've had. So I am a maternal person, I'm quite a nurturing person, I'm the one that all my kids little friends and my nieces and nephews come to, I'm great with kids but I had a lot of feelings of jealousy around my step children because when they weren't there I was my husband's number one and then when they were there quite rightly so I wasn't and despite being a mother myself and I understand how important that relationship with your children is, I felt really pushed to one side and that really conflicted with my values of being this sort of nurturer and being a parent.

So I would resent them and I would get huge anxiety around them coming and not want them to be there and then I hated myself for feeling that way and I thought you're a terrible person your husband just wants to love them and I felt so much guilt and then that self-loathing became very very destructive because I then suppressed it you shouldn't feel this way why why do you have such negative feelings towards two little people it's an absolute joy that you've got them in their life clay you've got so much value to add you know you knew what you were signing up to. How many times have I heard that? Or how many times have I told myself that? Why can't you do this? And just feeling like a complete failure and feeling like I was letting down the love of my life and this guy that I loved more than I could possibly imagine. So for me, that's been a real challenge, learning that it's okay to feel like that it's okay to have

really quite strong and negative emotions and it's how you deal with them and it's how you process them but actually opening up and admitting I've been feeling like that has been the start of of the road to recovery shall we say wow okay well do you know what I'm struck by here immediately is Claire's honesty. And Claire, I truly thank you and applaud you for it because that is a very difficult thing to admit, I think, in that voice note. Jealousy, resentment, guilt, self-blame,

some really negative emotions. Kate, what were your immediate thoughts while you were listening to Claire? I just wanted to give Claire a big hug to start with, because it's hard, like you said, to be honest and admit how we feel. And the fact that she's done that to all of us is pretty amazing. And I think it's good to be honest, like not everything is perfect. And it is normal to not have bubbly, super fluffy feelings all the time. So I think she's a brave woman for coming on here and admitting it. I've got a slightly different situation because I live with my stepchildren full time. But I can really relate to those feelings of like guilt around feeling certain things

and then feeling bad about it and how to manage that. Sam, I want to bring you in here as the psychotherapist. Do you think that jealousy and resentment, the kind of negative emotions that Claire is feeling, is that more common than we think? Absolutely. I hear it every day. We just don't say it out loud. People just don't admit to it. It's totally natural to feel disappointment, resentment, anger, jealousy. These are natural emotions that we are supposed to feel. We're allowed to feel. Well, that's the key phrase, isn't it? We are allowed to feel those emotions, but we are afraid to give voice to it, particularly, I think, as a parent.

Why is it important for us all to acknowledge and own those negative emotions in the first place? Because it's similar to if we'd never acknowledge joy or happiness or hope or all of those things, we're kind of acting as if we're half a human. We explore and understand life through happiness, sadness, light, dark, the shadow self, I suppose. If we don't acknowledge that side of ourselves, we're not acknowledging a big part of who we are. That's really interesting. Why is it that despite the fact we're successful, responsible adults, we still want to be number one? I mean, I thought that was interesting. What does number one mean? So that's why I would ask a

client or a patient, what does attention mean? Is that your partner not looking at you, not speaking to you? That's what I would ask because it's different for everybody. I mean, for you, Kate, obviously, being married to Rio in 2019, at which point he had three children from his marriage to his late wife, Rebecca. Did you get that sense of, hang on a minute, I want to be number one here, and there's so much attention on the children. Where's my moment in the spotlight? Yeah, I kind of didn't want to be number one, but I just wanted my feelings to be recognised. I felt like because there was so much going on, like you say, with Rio being famous and Rebecca passing away and the kids going through so much. Obviously,

that is all so important. I felt like my feelings kind of wasn't really seen. I was pushed to the side. So I think it was more that I wanted to be seen and heard rather than be number one, maybe even just be an equal because I didn't feel like that at the beginning. When I think back, I don't know how we did navigate it. And it is a real big blur. I mean, I went from just being a single carefree girl to all of a sudden stepmama three. These kids have gone through so much. There's grief. And I think it's all a bit of a blur. Was it a shock? A real big shock. Like Claire said in that voice note, she said, people knew what you're getting into. It's hard to know what you're getting into sometimes until you're actually in it. So I can really relate with that, Claire.

Until you're in it, you don't really realise. I felt a little bit like that, a little bit shocked. I didn't really know how to parent. Again, I'm very maternal, but there's being maternal on the weekends to your kids' friends, and then there's being maternal full-time to three kids that have lost a mum. It's very different. Absolutely. I mean, how on earth did you navigate that? Did you have a good open conversation with Rio to say, I feel like I'm getting a bit lost here? Yeah, it took a little while. I think it got to a point where I said, we all need to be equal here. Don't get me wrong, the kids are a priority and their feelings and looking after them is really important. But you need to feel heard and I need to feel heard as well. And you can't really have a really successful relationship if not everyone's understood

and heard. So it got to a point that we just started communicating openly, all of us. And Rio and the children were open to that, were they? That this new style of communication? I mean, at the beginning, I think Rio wasn't, love him and he'll admit this, the best communicator. And the kids weren't the best at the beginning. They've been through so much. But now, it kind of sets us all free a little bit when we communicate. We feel a little bit lighter afterwards, just for getting it out. That is so healthy. I mean, it sounds as though the family dynamic that you guys have created is incredibly healthy and open. Sam, you're going to say, aren't you, that look, having that open

communication is essential, presumably. Yeah, definitely. And you're so right, Kate. It's that acknowledgement of feeling. If you have that acknowledgement, then we can work with that. If it's not acknowledged or heard, that's when resentment starts to creep in. So you want that idea of being equal, that idea of everybody being heard, and it doesn't matter if the feeling's not, I suppose, pretty. Okay. So even if you disagree with the need or the emotion that your partner or your child is expressing, just the acknowledgement is the first step. Is that right? Yeah, absolutely. Just, I hear you. God, bloody hell, I need to learn this myself.

Me too. I'm getting tips here. I know, right? I'm really bad at doing that. you god bloody hell i need to learn this myself me too i'm getting tips here i know right i'm really bad at doing that i think we all are though we try to fix i think so if our partner our children are not doing well we're like let's do this let's try this whereas actually it's just i hear you and i'm here that's it you know that's one thing that i've really learned since being in my relationship with rio because prior that, I'd want to fix everything, but I can't bring the kid's mum back. And that's something I've had to realise,

that you can't fix everything and you just have to be there. And when you learn that being there is enough at that time, that helps you manage more situations within the family. It's tough to do though, isn't it? Because I think naturally, and particularly as women, we do want to fix, don't we? You just want to make everything better. But it's not reality, unfortunately, all the time. So would your tip then, Sam, be that, look, just hear the person and just say, look, I'm hearing you. Yeah, that's enough. I'm hearing you. I hear you. Okay. That's enough. I'm just putting myself into kids' shoes in a way. I mean, do either of you two come from a broken family, as in divorced parents?

Sam, you do. I do, yeah. Me too. So my parents split when I was 10, and I was sent away to boarding school, and my mum met somebody else. mum met somebody else and it was I think it was a real shock to a navigate the grief of your parents separating be being sent away and then see sort of having somebody else turn up it was really confusing I mean again it's about loss and grief whether someone's died or not something's been lost and we have to grieve that and again children, we don't really understand what's going on. So I think we're asking a lot of them and asking a lot of ourselves. Yeah.

One thing that Claire talks about, Kate, is her own beasties. So her own biological kids, if you like. And the pressure that she feels in terms of making sure she's not favouring them over her stepchildren. Can you identify with that? I mean, that must be so hard as a parent. Oh, 100%, because for me, I want everyone to fit equal. And it really worries me that, you know, at the moment, Cari's a toddler, he's two.

That's my biological son. So naturally, he's going to get a little bit more attention because it's more hands-on than, say, the older kids who are like 12, 14 and 16. It's something that I'm really, really conscious of. I'm not saying I've got it all right, but I really make a conscious effort that all kids feel like they're getting the time that they need. I'm going to ask you a really difficult question. Do you feel differently towards your own child compared to your stepchildren? You know, people have said this to me before, and I had a bit of a big debate about this, because the thing is, Lorenz Tatantier and my stepchildren, I never knew how to love

a child as my own, and they taught me how to do that. So don't get me wrong. It's different in the sense that I've given birth to Cree and I've known him since he was born and there's an automatic bond there that I've had to work for that bond with my stepkids, really work for it. But then I feel like because we've worked so hard for it, it's so special. I love the fact that you said, you know, obviously with Cree, I grew him and I've known him, you know, from the very beginning, whereas with my stepchildren, I've worked at it. So they've

taught me what it is to love a child. It's a really beautiful way of putting it. I mean, Sam, what do you think? You must hear from people coming in to see you that it's like, I've got my own kids and I've got stepchildren. I feel very differently about them. I mean, it makes total sense. Think about your childhood friends, people who've known you forever. You've got a certain bond with them because you've known them forever. It's the same with your own biological children. You've known them forever. When you meet a child when they're 14, 15, 16, they're already developed. They've already got their attachment figures. You have to work much harder. So that's going to take a bit longer. It's like when you make

new friends as an adult, you have to work a bit harder because they haven't known you forever. But those attachment bonds can be built. They just take a lot of work. It made me think when you were talking about parents who, if you ask them, do you have a favourite? And no one wants to answer that, but they will say, and you're right, Kate, they'll say, I don't have a favourite, but I have people maybe that I get along better with. One of my children maybe with similar characters. So we have this sort of bond. And another one, I don't get them at all. We're such different people.

It doesn't mean I don't love them the same, but the bond is different. And I think that's okay. That's a big debate in our house. Who's the favourite? Who's the favourite? I say, you're actually all a favourite at different times. Because you're all annoying at different times. And sometimes you connect with one a little bit more for like a couple of weeks than the other.

But yeah. Also, can I just add that I know I'm fortunate to be able to love all of my kids the same. And I know that that isn't everyone's reality. So I don't want to be saying this and people think, oh, gosh, I don't feel like that. I know that I'm lucky to have formed the bonds that I have with my stepkids. Well, it sounds like also you've worked very, very hard at it. And what struck me in this conversation is that you and Rio have that understanding about the importance of an open, honest communication relationship where you talk about your feelings rather than trying to repress them so that resentment doesn't grow. That's what struck me about talking to you today. Yeah, I suppose that's what we do. And I think, well, it's working so far.

Sam, Claire talks about suppressing her feelings and says that this is making things worse for her. Tell us why that strategy of suppressing our feelings is never going to work. Because I suppose it has to come out somehow. It has to come out and it will come out whether we like it or not. Whether it's tiny interactions with our partner, our children, whoever it is, if we suppress something, it will find a way out. And I suppose not in a positive way. It's going to come out negatively. So we have to find a way out. And I suppose not in a positive way. It's going to come out negatively. So we have to find a way to encourage being open about it because then it's out. Why are we so afraid, do you think, of expressing those difficult feelings? I mean,

Kate, from your point of view, again, of being part of this incredible family, there will have been times where you felt lonely or frustrated did you acknowledge those feelings straight away I think it took me a while to actually acknowledge and understand how I was feeling because at the beginning it's all a bit of a blur and it's scary to admit that you're struggling but once you do feel like it kind of sets you free a little bit and it helps you move forward. That's why I think Claire sending that voice note is amazing because she's admitting how she's feeling and she's asking for help. So, I mean, even when I first started talking in the

kind of public about things that I was struggling with, I was terrified. I was really scared because I thought, do I really need to be admitting it? But actually, the thought of everyone thinking it's perfect to me pretending that it's perfect, it's actually harder work sometimes. It's easier to be vulnerable and to be yourself and people to know who you are. And it's more relatable as well. I mean, absolutely. I mean, none of us have got it together. That's the thing. We're all pretending on some level, you know, public, private face. And once people say, you know, I'm finding this really hard, you can see on the other person's face, they're like, oh, me too.

Yeah, thank God. You know, me too. It's being honest with each other. And it doesn't mean you have to, you know, spill your guts out. But just saying, you know, I'm finding this hard, similar to I hear you. That's enough. Yeah, that's enough. That's enough. So Kate, what do you think are the most common mistakes that step-parents make when they come into a new family? Do you know what? I think it's all a learning curve. So this is what I always say to the kids. We all are just trying to do the best we can and mistakes are made. But mainly I think the parents, so the partners, not being a team,

because when you're a team, you can at least deal with the struggles together. Well, also, presumably, sometimes children are going to try and play one parent off against the other parent, the step-parent, aren't they? Oh my God, 100%. They even do it to me now. They're like, can I have an ice cream cream i say no dad can i have an ice cream yes hang on a minute i just told you no don't go to your dad so how do you navigate that if you sort of say hang on a minute rio no they can't have an ice cream i've just said no does he then capitulate and go oh hang on a minute yeah fair enough kate no you can't kids i think the kids know that that's not actually okay. If one adult says no, you don't go to the other one. So he will say, hang on a minute, has Kate just said no

and then you're coming to me? You know that that's not how it works. Okay. And he might even say, do you know what? They haven't had an ice cream for two days. I'm just saying, as an example. Maybe we should let him have one. And I go, all right, just do it in an hour because I've said no.

You know, it's just like a communication again, isn't it, really? But it sounds like you've really got it nailed. I hate it when you say that because you might see me like, my kids are running riot and... Covered in ice cream. And there's just stuff everywhere. And she was on that podcast the other day and it sounded like she really had her shit together.

No, but, you know, I think you feel like you've got some situations now, but parenting, it just takes you by surprise. And you're just going with the flow, aren't you? Well, I mean, like you say, this is an issue that's relevant to all families. And I'm pretty sure that a lot of parents feel the same way about their biological kids or their partner's family or even the family dog. So if we're not getting the attention that we crave, we're going to feel resentful, which brings me to the big question of what we can advise Claire to do. So it sounds as though she's already taken that first step to owning and accepting her emotions, which we're agreed is the first step. It's really, really important. Girls, do we have any practical steps

that we could perhaps help Claire with? I'm going to let you lead that one while I think. Well, I suppose the first thing that comes to my mind is just the idea of, you know, everything can exist together. So you can have two opposing emotions. You can love your children at the same time want to throttle them. And that's okay. It's okay to feel anger and love. Yeah. So the first thing I would say is it's okay to feel whatever you're feeling and the second thing would be try to be as open with your partner as you can about it and also from a therapeutic point of view I would be asking what is the lack that you feel that idea of what is number one what does that mean for you I'd really want to look at it

granularly and say what does that mean to you to be number one? And how do you know that you're not? What is that? That's a good question. How do you know you're not number one? What do you do in your household? Do you all take turns being number one, if that makes sense? No, I don't think there's time for that. So we all just are in it together. And I suppose... So you're making the family unit number one. It's more a family unit number one. And then as and when different children are prioritised for whatever's going on. But it's never really a specific plan that we've got in place. You're just going on the job.

That sounds like a really healthy approach to me, Sam. What do you think that we're saying? This family unit is so important that together we are the number one. Well, it's really interesting because it's the idea of sort of group psychology and putting the group before the individual and sort of that idea of we all support each other. We all might get it wrong, but that's okay. It's for the good of the group, the team, the family, whatever that looks like. And what's interesting, of course, is that Rio's a footballer. So he's used to being part of a team and putting the needs of the team before the individual. I'm getting deep. I'm getting deep. Well, listen, if you're listening, Claire, again, we are so impressed

by your honesty. So thank you. And I'm certain that by you opening up like this, you'll have helped a lot of our other listeners that may have the same issues going on. I'm certain that by you opening up like this, you'll have helped a lot of our other listeners that may have the same issues going on. I'm not going to let either of you go yet, because before we wrap up, and you've doled out some brilliant advice, the pair of you, I'm going to put you to the test a little bit more

and give you a couple of quickfire dilemmas before you're allowed to leave the building. Are you ready? Do we have to say yes? It's for the good of the team. Okay, the first one came in via email from Myra. She writes, it can't just be me who has major doubts about my friend's fiance. Oh, here we go. She didn't put that in the email. My friend is engaged and is getting married next year. And while I have no real evidence, I'm not sure how much this guy actually likes her.

Do I have a responsibility to say something or should I just be supportive? Oh, gosh. Oh, man. That's a really hard one. I'm putting myself in her shoes and I'm not sure what I would do. Because I think you'd always regret it if you don't say something but then at the same time you don't want to be the person that says something pushed out because they're going to continue to be together but knowing me personally and I'm not I'm not a

professional I do like to voice maybe in a nice way not in a really negative way concerns because I feel like that's my duty as a friend but maybe don't go full throttle really with it yeah I don't know how good that advice is what do you think I totally agree actually I think it would be and also it's looking at the nature of the relationship what type of friendship do you have is it safe for you to say I love you I'm here to support, I'm just checking in to happy, then that's the priority. I do agree with that. I've got to be honest because all we want is our friends and family to be happy. Even from my experience, when I met Rio, I think people thought,

well, I know they thought, what's she doing there? You know, old towey girl. Maybe they didn't think I was right. It took a little while for people to get used to me. And now they realise it was the right thing. We all make judgements quickly sometimes. The best interest of the person that you love is most important, I would say. Absolutely. Thank you for that. Okay. Here's the next one, girls. This is a voice note from Jane. Hi, Anna. It can't just be me, I'm sure. I've just moved to a rural location and we're busy with work

and we're getting to know our work colleagues really well socially, but struggling to make friends outside work. What's your advice, please? Oh, this is a classic. It's kind of like, you know, people that have moved to the country, possibly during COVID, thinking they're getting away from the madness of the city and then suddenly find themselves in a rural location i know this well because i do have a little place up north i was brought up in

the countryside so what are we saying they've moved to a rural location busy with work and getting to know work colleagues but struggling to make friends outside of work? I'm not very good at making new friends. I've got to be honest. I'm polite. I like new people. But basically you hate everyone. Well, to be bluntly. No, I just, I have my guard up a little bit.

I get nervous letting people in and I don't think I'm the best at giving advice on this one. I think that's fair enough though. From your perspective, given the family that you've got, I can understand why you'd go, I'm nervous about letting other people in until I'm really comfortable with them. So I'm going to let you off this. Thank you. Sam, what do you reckon? I mean, this is a hard but easy one. You've got to get out of your comfort zone. You've got to see people, meet people, join clubs, make an effort. And that's hard as adults. You know, kids do it all the time. They just make friends, start talking to someone.

And that's kind of what we've got to do. Really put yourself out there as if you're dating. You know, it's a similar thing. You have to make an effort, but it's very uncomfortable. Because people just think you're a weirdo. Exactly. So join clubs, I would say it's about like joining things where there are people around. It's not just work stuff, anything where there's other people, but you have to make an effort. I love that. I mean, again, because I live half in the country, half in London, I sort of totally get this. And it is about that when you're in a rural location, you do have to volunteer. You've got to get involved with the local community stuff, whether that's in the village hall or

getting involved with the Summer Fate or whatever it is, or, you know, maybe going to church or the food bank or the local art centre, whatever it is. You know, Sam, you're absolutely right. You've got to make the effort, be like a kid and go and make some friends and offer your services. And then you will make some new pals in the country. Kate, you are a vision. Thank you so much for your insights and your openness today. I really do appreciate it. Thank you for coming in. And thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure. It's been lovely to have you here. And thanks again to Sam's Penal and Colo from the London Practice for joining us and basically giving me and Kate a private psychotherapy session.

My pleasure. She said that literally through gritty teeth. I'll be back with another episode of It Can't Just Be Me next week. But if you have your own dilemma around sex, love, divorce, friendship, or anything else, please leave us a voice note at itcantjustbeme.co.uk

or you can email itcantjustbeme at podimo.com. Remember, nothing's off limits, and whatever you're dealing with, it really isn't just you. From Podimo and Mags, this has been It Can't Just Be Me, hosted by me, Anna Richardson. The producer is Alice Homewood, with support from Laura Williams. The executive producer for Mags Creative is James Norman Fyfe.

The executive producers for Podimo are is James Norman Fyfe. The executive producers for Podimo are Jake Chudnow and Matt White. Don't forget to follow the show and to listen ad-free. Subscribe to Podimo UK on Apple Podcasts.