It Can't Just Be Me - 8: Partner with depression? With Evanna Lynch

Episode Date: June 14, 2023

Actor Evanna Lynch has come a long way since she played Luna Lovegood in the Harry Potter films. In this episode she looks back on her own relationships and mental health struggles to offer advice to a listener who’s concerned her partner is depressed.Anna and Evanna are joined by our resident psychotherapist Sam Pennells-Nkolo from The London Practice, as they ask: how much responsibility do we have for our partner’s happiness? And, if they won’t get help, at what point should we just walk away?This episode touches on the subject of suicide, so do bear this in mind when you’re deciding if and when to listen. If you’re struggling, or you’re worried about someone else, you can get 24/7 support from The Samaritans at samaritans.org or on 116 123. You can also call CALM at 0800 58 58 58. Lines are open between 5pm and midnight. Evanna’s book The Opposite of Butterfly Hunting is a memoir about her childhood, and battle with an eating disorder. She is also a tenacious animal cruelty activist, and co-hosts the podcasts The ChickPeeps and Just Beings. …Have questions about sex? Divorce? Motherhood? Menopause? Mental health? With no topic off limits, Anna’s here to prove that whatever you’re going through, it’s not just you.If you have a dilemma you’d like unpacked, visit itcantjustbeme.co.uk and record a voice note. Or tell Anna all about it in an email to [e-mail] podcast contains adult themes that may not be suitable for children. Listener caution is advised. Please note that advice given on this podcast is not intended to replace the input of a trained professional. If you’ve been affected by anything raised in this episode and want extra support, we encourage you to reach out to your general practitioner or an accredited professional. From Podimo & Mags CreativeProducer: Alice Homewood with support from Laura WilliamsEditor: Kit MilsomTheme music: Kit MilsomExecutive producers for Podimo: Jake Chudnow and Matt WhiteFollow @annarichardso and @podimo_uk on Instagram for weekly updates Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We get it. Life gets busy. Luckily, with Peloton Tread, you can still get the challenging workouts you crave. Only have 10 minutes? Take a quick Peloton workout. Want to go all out? Chase down your goals with 20 to 45-minute Tread workouts. No matter your goals or time, Peloton has everything you need to become everything you want. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit onepaliton.ca. set of challenges. That's where this podcast comes in. Every week I chat to experts, everyday people and people in the public eye about their families that are bound by love no matter what the

circumstances, whether that's through divorce, death or whatever it may be. Come and join the blended family. Oh, hello there. It's Anna Richardson here and you're listening to It Can't Just Be Me. Now, I think today's dilemma is one that will resonate with many, many people. It's all about how best to support a partner struggling with their mental health. Now, of course, navigating these issues comes as part and parcel of being in a relationship, but it can be difficult to know what to do when the person you love most is struggling and also how best to take care of yourself in the process. We'll be talking about topics around depression, eating disorders, and suicide, so do bear that in mind when you're deciding how and when to listen. As always,

you'll find some useful resources in the show notes. Now, without further ado, let's dive right in. Welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. I had feelings of jealousy. It's just all around the middle. I feel like a Teletubby. And then I hated myself for feeling that way. If you've got any advice. I would really appreciate any advice. It can't just be me. It can't just be me, right? My guest today is the gorgeous Ivana Lynch. Ivana shot to fame at just 14 years old when she was cast as Luna Lovegood in the iconic Harry Potter film series. But Ivana's life is so much more than just Luna Lovegood. She's played a broad range of fascinating and intriguing roles on stage, on screen, and as a voiceover artist. She's also talked with

stunning honesty about some of the struggles she's faced in her own life and brought comfort to a lot of people along the way. In 2021, she penned her first book, The Opposite of Butterfly Hunting, which is a spellbinding memoir charting her journey from girlhood to womanhood and her battle with anorexia along the way. I can already tell she's going to blow us all away. And here she is, Ivana Lynch. Ivana Lynch, I'm very excited to have you here today because you are one of those people that I have quite literally watched growing up in front of me because you played Luna Lovegood in Harry Potter at just 14 years old. And here you are, a fully grown, brilliant woman in front of my very eyes. Welcome.

Thank you. Anna, I don't know if you know how excited I am to be here because I just love your show. I love Naked Attractions so much. It's so weird. That's very kind of you to say. Thank you. Oh, and I just always find you're so,

you have such a beautiful balance of kindness and humour. And then taking the piss. Yeah, exactly. You're truthful, but kind. Thank you. That's a very difficult balance to have. And so when you reached out to me, I was like, I just want to be in a room with you and your energy.

That's really kind of you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Now then, it's not all about me, tragically. We've got a really interesting dilemma to delve into today. But before we get stuck in, every week, I ask my guests to bring in their very own It Can't Just Be Me dilemma. So what have you got for us, Lynch? Yeah, okay.

It Can't Just Be Me, who projects deep emotions onto animals. And it really does stress me out because everywhere I go there's little animals and I just feel like all the time they're wondering what is the point of their life life why are they here oh because we're all rushing around we all have objectives whereas like I have to leave my cat for like hours a day and I feel like I always leave a bit myself with her and always thinking what's she feeling what oh does she know I'm coming back you can't text them and it is become such it's actually a problem in my relationship because is it yeah because my boyfriend doesn't feel that way he sees animals as like different and I know they're different to people I know they don't have this existential despair they might they might though they might so he's a gardener so he is really interested in

like ponds little creatures he got a little pond in garden. He put fish in it and I could never stop thinking of the fish because I felt so sad that this fish wasn't free in a big lake. I felt really conflicted about it. It got to a point where like anytime we'd have an argument, I'd say something about the fish and he'd be like, are you still thinking about the fish? And I'd just be like, I never stopped thinking about the fish. And what about the cat? It's not just the fish. Think about the cat. Yeah. No, I hear you on this because I have a rescue dog

and I've always had rescue animals. And so for me, you know, I have that entire thing about, is she okay? Is she traumatized? I can't leave her on her own. She has to sleep with me. She has to eat with me. She has to do everything with me.

So I get it. Yeah. But I've got to say that it really isn't just you. I think there's lovely, kind people out there that also really worry about all of their animals and whether they're having an existential crisis. Yeah. But I am going to have to pull you back into the studio today and halt this discussion about fish so we can turn back towards the task

at hand because one of our listeners needs some serious help and you have nobly stepped up to the challenge today. Now fortunately we do have somebody sensible in the studio to keep us on track with this one. It's the brilliant, lovely, all-round good egg, psychotherapist Sam Pennell Zencolo. Hello. Hello, pleasure to be here as always. Well, you're a bit of an old hat here now, aren't you? You know your way around the studio as well as I do. But we do keep getting you back for a reason because we all feel in very safe hands when you're here. Thank you. Are you ready, girls, for this week's dilemma? Absolutely. Okay. Well, this one was sent into us via email from a listener who

didn't want us to share her name, which is fair enough. And by the way, if you want to send in your dilemma via email, that's great. Just email itcan'tjustbemeatpodemo.com, just like this listener. She wanted to stay anonymous, so we're going to be calling her Anya. And she says, Hi, Anna. I've been with my long-term boyfriend for nine years. We were long distance for five years and now we live together. And I think he struggles with depression. He can go long stretches where he's great and we are the best. But then he has these periods where he seems low and cold and won't speak to me. He won't talk about how he's feeling. He will barely look me in the eye and he won't go to his doctor or seek help. Previously he's got very low and broken down

and acknowledged he's struggling and says he will but he has never followed through and the more I try and talk to him the more he pushes me away. When he's good I never want to talk to him about it because I don't want to remind him in case I bring it on. We've been having such a good time for the last five months, but I can feel him getting low and cold and I don't know what to do. I try to give him space and not take it personally. I keep asking him how he is and he says he's fine, but he feels distant. I also can't help but feel sad and rejected, even though I know it's not to do with me. Although it could be as he's moved a very long way from home to live with me. What advice do you

have to support him? And also, how do I deal with it if this is going to be recurring forever? Okay, wow, right? So the first thing that I'm struck by here with this dilemma is just how relatable it is. Navigating somebody else's difficulties, their mental health and their moods, their bad moods, is all part of being in a relationship. You know, whether that's with your partner or even a family member or a friend or whatever, but particularly in an intimate relationship. but particularly in an intimate relationship. But Sam, I think it's important to kick off with you first because I want to just have an explanation between the difference between depression and just feeling a bit low or a bit of a bad mood.

What is the difference? I mean, I would say in terms of clients and how they describe it, people say, I feel a bit flat, I feel a bit low, and that typically won't last too long. And they find a way out of it and then they've moved to the next stage. People that are chronically depressed will feel like that for long stretches of time. And things like they won't be able to get out of bed, they won't be able to see friends. It's really chronic and it stretches in all parts of their life. Is it too much to ask you what is going on chemically in the brain here?

I mean, there's arguments about this because there's ideas about, of course, that they look at brain scans and they look at serotonin levels. And if we look at antidepressants, they can raise the serotonin levels. But then if you look at exercising, for example, it's shown to prove times four more effective than certain drugs. Really? Yeah. But it depends what it is, etc. Brain chemistry, we're all different. So if you think about giving one pill to one person and see how it affects them, is it going to affect someone else exactly in the same way? No, not necessarily so. So actually, this is a sort of 360 holistic thing. There's several things going on with depression.

Yes. Okay. All right. Thank you. Ivana, I mean, you were nodding away during this. What are your initial thoughts when it comes to this particular dilemma? Well, first of all, I think, so Anya, the listener, I think you can tell she's someone who just loves him as much as you can unconditionally. I don't know if I fully believe in unconditional love, but like she's really there for the long haul. So I just think that, for one thing, is amazing to have that from a partner. I really relate to this struggle because, oh yeah, I feel very lucky in that I started therapy when I was 10. And so I got very used to like

feeling a feeling and expressing it. And that's a very healthy way of doing it. And I feel like I'm at this stage of my life, I'm just queen of therapy. I've so many, I've like a healer, I've a shaman, I've got a lady who cleanses my womb. I just, I'm, at this stage of my life, I'm just queen of therapy. I have so many. I have a healer. I have a shaman. I've got a lady who cleanses my womb. I just, I'm the person to go to if you want someone. I quite literally love the fact you've got a lady that cleanses your womb and you've got a shaman as well. I've got a shaman as well.

Oh my God, it's the best. Sam, have you got a shaman? I haven't, but I think I need to get one. Happy to connect you. But this is what I mean. And then I've been in relationships. I'll talk about a particular one, but be vague because I don't want to share the person. Of course.

Someone who was struggling with like alcoholism. And I could really see this person as just, you know, so beautiful, had everything going for them. And then they would have this thing that would derail everything. And I was there like, I'll help you. I've got this person and this person. I know people have been through this. I've read all the books on this kind of thing. And this person just wouldn't get help. And they kept doing the same destructive pattern, same cycles. And I think the hardest thing to learn in relationships is that it's like 50-50.

to learn in relationships is that it's like 50-50. A relationship, that person has full agency and autonomy and they can make decisions that can crush you. And that's the thing in relationship. You just have to surrender and go, I can't change this person. And I really, really, really tried. I saw it as to help, but this person just wouldn't make the decision. And actually it was something my therapist said to me, but this person just wouldn't make the decision. And actually, it was something my therapist said to me, because I was really struggling in that it was affecting my life because I was so deeply involved. And I kind of thought I had reached a good point. I said, right, I've given an ultimatum. I've said, if you start drinking again, that's it, that's done. And my therapist said to me, fair enough, but I've talked about this a lot, I won't go into it. But when I was younger, I had an eating disorder. And she said

to me, if someone had said to you, if you don't get better, our friendship is ended, would that have helped? And it was such a wake up call, because it was like, oh my god, that would have only added stress to my problem. It would have made me more secretive, it would have made me cut that person off and not be honest. And yeah, it would have made the problem worse. And so I came to a point of going, okay, I have to be prepared for the fact that this person might not change. And I have to love them unconditionally and also know my own boundaries.

And so I guess for you, Ivana, you're so used to therapy. You found that so helpful. Yeah. And it healed you in many ways that you're a big advocate of being able to go to therapy and expressing how you feel. Absolutely. Whereas I think, so say with the person I was talking about who was struggling with alcohol addiction, just so terrified of speaking. Like literally there was a big disconnect between their feelings and sharing them. So they had developed this pattern of hide it, hide it, hide it, drink and you'll feel better. I see. Yeah. And how on earth as a partner did you manage that

relationship? Because that's incredibly, incredibly difficult to manage. And it sounds a bit like you love this person so much, you wanted to help. You're also trying to rescue him. But how did you manage that? It was very hard because I didn't understand it. I'd not really been around it. And I did on some level, but it came to a point where it was affecting my life and mental health so much because things like they'd call me at four in the morning drunk and I wouldn't get a good night's sleep. I started lending money because I felt so bad for them. And then I guess I just slowly built up boundaries to go, you cannot call me at this time. I'm never lending you money even for 50p for the bus or whatever it is. Boundaries, boundaries, things that it was, and this is why

I relate to Anya. It's like, how much much can you take I think you have to really really understand that because otherwise they're not going to protect you in that way um well they can't protect themselves can they so that if they can't protect themselves they're never going to be able to respect your boundaries either yeah and it got to a point I suppose where the only person you can be responsible for is you, your first loyalties to yourself. And there's a phrase, and it actually really helps me, you change people by your example, not your opinion. And it's something I really live by now. That's a great phrase, actually. Yeah. So, but you know, you're quite right to say that ultimately,

only you have the agency and only you are able to change. But let's just, let's turn this on its head because so far we've looked at this dilemma from Anya's perspective of how does she support, you know, a very unwell, depressed partner. But there's another side to this, which is the perspective from Anya's boyfriend. Have either of you two struggled with your mental health whilst in a relationship with somebody? To be honest, that relationship that I talked about, that was the first one where I wasn't, this is not the right term, but quote unquote, the crazy one. I remember kind of going like, wait, this is all wrong. I'm supposed to be the mess.

Oh, but that's interesting in itself. Yeah, pretty much every other relationship. And but do you know what was weird? And it's strange to confess this, but like I wasn't in love with those ones. There's something about being, I don't know what it is, but being with people who are more vulnerable

has made me grow up. And like, and I think that's something I have to watch like my current boyfriend um I shouldn't say current boyfriend my boyfriend my boyfriend the other day said um to me he was like do you realize in the past he got annoyed at me because he goes you asked me in the past hour am I okay five times and it was because he was in a mood and I kept going are, are you okay? Are you okay? And I wasn't asking him, was he okay? I was more asking, am I okay? Because your mood is making me not okay. So I have to be careful with coming back to me, not taking on your feelings, not putting mine onto you, just like staying solid in myself and letting somebody else have their moods,

whatever it is. I think that is so important and so relevant. But again, I'm just going to ask Sam whether she's ever been the low one, the depressed one or the anxious one within any relationship. So in other words, your other half's had to deal with your moods. Yeah, definitely. I think there's been moments where I've been flat, where I've been low, where I've been, you know, going through something, but I've always had the support. So I've known where to go and I know they can't essentially something, but I've always had the support. So I've known where to go. And I know they can't essentially do anything. I have to do the work. And I know how to do that because of what I do, I suppose. Well, I have my own therapist. I have my own ways.

I know what works for me. So that's what I've done. But when did you realize that that's what you needed to do? Because when you were younger, you wouldn't have known that. No, I don't know. I think it was when I was much younger. So let's say in my early teens, late teens, university, I realised things like, and it wasn't sort of conscious, but I thought I would train a lot, I would exercise a lot, or I'd swim a lot. And it just made me feel better. And it sounds so basic, but that's just what I'd go and do.

Me and the gym or me and swimming or me and seeing a friend. And it just made me feel better. So instinctively, you just knew what to do. So I'm not going to take this out on other people. I need to do something, whatever it is, exercise, seeing friends, whatever, that makes me feel better. So you were accountable. Yeah.

Interesting. Don't you find as well, like if you were with somebody, like if you're with a partner, you just want them to accept you and love you how you are. I think if, you know, somebody who's who's getting too involved in your mental health and making lists of how to help you that to me that would make me feel suffocated and I have to remind myself of that with relationships too because it goes the other way it is difficult though isn't it I mean I'm thinking about I've definitely been through some periods in my longest relationship where I

was struggling a lot with anxiety and low mood and it must have been an absolute nightmare for him because you know there's nothing the partner can do when you when you're in that space of depression and anxiety there's nothing really that your boyfriend can do. Do you feel like it's not for a partner to get involved in that? Or did you want him to be? That's a really good question. I think I wanted him and now with my partner, I think I want somebody who is rock solid, who is there for me, who isn't going to fix me because that's my responsibility, but who I just know is reliable and kind and loving and isn't going to leave. Maybe that's part of it. I don't know. I don't know. That's really interesting. with Peloton Tread, you can still get the challenging workouts you crave. Only have 10 minutes? Take a quick Peloton workout. Want to go all out? Chase down your goals with 20 to 45

minute Tread workouts. No matter your goals or time, Peloton has everything you need to become everything you want. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit onepeloton.ca. or Peloton. Visit onepeloton.ca. I want to go back to you, Ivana, because, and also Anya, because she's saying that when her boyfriend is feeling better, he's great. Yeah. And that they're the best. I mean, I can really identify with this. But it sounds to me as though the threat of his low mood is making her really anxious. And you picked up on this, Savannah, earlier on where you were saying, I'm double checking with my boyfriend all the time. Are you okay? Are you okay? So I'm wondering at what point this becomes quite toxic. What do you think?

I think we have to be really mindful of where we are, what we need and where our own line is. Because it's very easy to fall into this trap of trying to help people, do things for people, fix people at the cost of the self. And once that starts happening, you start to feel eroded and underconfident and that is not healthy. So it's very much, as Ivana said, that looking looking inwards is this good for me and I would say always put your own mask on first always can you fill us in a little bit with the concept of codependence because I'm just wondering when I listen to Anya and read her dilemma whether there's a little bit of codependent behavior going on here and whether that might touch with Ivana and myself as well.

Is that fair to say? Well, yeah, I suppose sometimes we become the saviour. We become the fixer. That becomes part of our identity. I'm here and I'm going to help him or her. I'm going to do this. And that becomes part of our identity. It's quite unhealthy. Again, how much can we actually help somebody else? They have agency. They have autonomy. autonomy we can support that's a different thing but if we feel like suddenly I'm here to save you to fix you we've already gone over the line especially with like a partner relationship that's dangerous when it becomes this like carer mothering relationship like I think that's quite bad for the chemistry I mean it's it's I struggle so much with the boundary between like compassion love and then over I don't know what it is yeah codependency it's like and I have to do exercises

to kind of just um like if if I was in any situation and I have been with a very moody partner and going it's ruined my day and I was having a good day, but your mood being around you, it's like, I absorb it. I have to do things like in that situation, go for a walk, go read a book. And it's so hard because you're so involved with your partner that you just want to sit there and have a big therapy session with them and help them. But I just think that for me personally, that has always been bad. And I have to go away, let them be, let them be sad, let them be depressed, and know that when they're ready, they will come to me and just look after my own energy. That can be difficult to learn.

Very difficult. Yeah, we absorb other people's energy. So if you're in a good mood, you go home, how was your day? And you're met with flatness, what's going to happen? You're going to be flat. Yeah. That's so interesting. with flatness, what's going to happen? You're going to be flat. Yeah. That's so interesting.

So just from a practical point of view for Anya, should she be addressing this issue with her partner when he's in a more positive headspace? That's a difficult one because I would say to have a conversation and say, you let me know when you'd like to talk about it. So it takes, again, why is the responsibility on Anya? The responsibility isn't hers. Give them the agency that they need. So when you want to talk about it, I am here and leave them with that. Can I ask you, like, what is the best way to get someone to therapy? Because you must have so many people who you are feeling that, I just want to help you. I mean, it's such a hard question. As you said, it's when they're ready. You can't force them. There have been people that have tried, that have gone, okay, my work's forced me to be here. And we say, well, let's try and make the

best of it. And they have to want to be there on some level. There isn't a way of forcing them, pushing it. And then the work, you know, nothing comes out of the work. Really? So if they don't want to be there, you know. If they're not invested in it, then what's the point? You know, so I think we can't force people. We have to let them do it when they're ready. So they're the only clients you can't help? Well, if they don't want to be there, it's hard work. Yeah, it's fruitless.

Yeah, it's fruitless. You see, I love this. I'm fascinated by this. Yeah, it's fruitless. You see, I love this. I'm fascinated by this. I think so often, and particularly as women, we end up in a parenting role, don't we, with our partner. Does this sound familiar, Ivana? Absolutely. Yeah. Why do we do that, Sam? I'd say it's conditioning, again, and it's socialization. It's what we've seen. This is socialization because having emotions is seen as feminine and is seen as less desirable in men. Very true. If you look at alpha males, if you look at nature,

what is it that women, if you look at the animal kingdom, what are we attracted to? What is it? And so again, it's everything that we've been bred to believe that it goes against the grain. So it is very hard, I think. It's hard for men to then come and be sort of this metro man that talks about his feelings, but also can fix a car, but also is an alpha. It's very difficult. So, yeah. Can I just say, though, I love a man that can cry. Any men listening to this, like women love vulnerability. I love that. I think someone who can be open and honest. And my boyfriend cries and I love it. Oh, I love him. I think someone who can be open and honest. My boyfriend cries and I love it. Oh, I love him. But what makes him go? What tears him up?

Family stuff. Yeah. Like if he ever sees like old people who are lonely, that kind of thing, he gets really involved. Yeah, he cries all the time. Not all the time. Sorry, I make him sound like he's falling apart. But he's just very there's no judgment around it and i find it he's got emotional intelligence clearly yeah yeah so i just i guess i just wanted to say that out loud to men any men listening that like people appreciate it and if they don't they're not really worthy of you they're not there for your full self i think and do you

like i mean or do you have a i I love if we're going to talk sort of genders then absolutely I have always been involved with mainly guys who are very emotionally intelligent really okay and you know have very good relationships with their mothers and their parents um and they're very in tune with their emotions and yeah I like that because clearly you know we're doing this podcast I like to talk I like. And yeah, I like that because clearly, you know, we're doing this podcast. I like to talk. I like to talk about emotions. I like to understand how I feel and how somebody else feels. And I want to fix it. So, you know, you have to have a guy that is open to that. Otherwise, where are you going with your relationship? So I'm with you. Exactly.

I'm with you, Ivana. I like a guy that gets it and wants to talk about emotions. Otherwise, it's like a bit too one-sided, isn't it? The relationship. I like that because I believe, you know, everyone has feminine and masculine energy and that we can bring out different sides of each other. And if somebody is just all macho, all masculine,

like I don't get to embrace my masculine side you know the caretaker and I think that's a very very a very good point that we're so polarized aren't we with our genders and actually we do need to be encouraging both sides of that masculine and feminine within ourselves yeah now then I really do think that that Anya's problem is something that's going to be relevant to pretty much anybody who's in a relationship. I want to give some solid advice to her. So at the end of her email, she says, what advice do you have for me to support him? Sam, I'm going to come to you here first.

What should Anya be doing to support her boyfriend if it looks like he's about to go into a very low period? I mean, firstly, I would say she absolutely has to support herself first. So she needs to be in a place where she's able to manage that stress because it's very stressful dealing with a partner that's going through mental health issues. Then again, they could have conversations if he's open to therapy, to what works for him. But again, when people dip, what they say when they're in a good place is different to what they might do when they're in a difficult place. So I would say the key message is keeping herself in a place where she can manage that, where she knows I will be okay with this. I will be okay, manage myself, be there to support.

There's a very big difference. I can be there. I'm here, but you have to be strong in oneself, which is very difficult. That would be my main, I mean, I know it's probably not what people want to hear, but that's what works actually. Well, and this is such a difficult question. She also asks, how do I deal with it if this is going to be recurring forever? My feeling with Anya is that like she's sort of stuck in a rut. Okay. Like, and I would say, Anya, you've been in a relationship for nine years. You've tried everything with the boyfriend. You've tried to give him all the links, all the resources, all the help, and that hasn't worked. So I wonder if she were to change something in her behavior,

would it actually wake him up? Maybe. Would it give him the wake up call? Like if when he's in, and this is actually because this has worked for me in relationships. If he's in one of those moods, if he's in a depression, rather than being with him on the couch, sinking to that place with him, what if she does goes, Hey, I'm going to go out for a run or I'm going to a movie. And that's very hard when you're kind of leaving your partner in a dark place. But the current way is not working. I'm trying to get him to change, trying to force him. So what if she's going out doing things she loves and protecting her energy, not sinking into that place with him? Maybe he'll start to go, damn, this person might leave me. I actually have to address this. I think

he needs a wake up call. And I don't think it's working the way she's currently doing. So yeah, personally, I would change those moments, deliberately change the energy, change her behavior, which will be hard, but she can do it. And yeah, do things that will focus, as you said, Sam, and like everything you have said is just affirmed to me that you can't change your person, but you can change how you react to things and how she manages her space and her health. And the more she gets back into her space, back into her body, not taking on his stuff, I just think the stronger she'll be and it might inspire him. So this is a very difficult question off the back of that. Is it okay to leave somebody because of their mental health? Well, I suppose if you think about any relationship,

people leave people for a number of reasons because they don't love them anymore, because they irritate them, because they've had enough of them. Terms and conditions absolutely apply. And that is not, you know, no one wants to hear that. That's not what we've been sold. It's not what we've been sold.

So you're saying T's and C's apply. Of course they do. Absolutely. That's tough to hear, isn't it? Yeah, it is. But I like it. It's harsh truth. It is truth.

One thing I'd love to ask you, Sam, is if somebody is in such a bad way that they're threatening to hurt themselves if you leave them how the hell do you handle that like is it and it's hurting you to be with them like do you do you make sure they have a support system and then leave or I mean you could be ruthless and leave and it's still not it's not your responsibility but that's hard when you care about them very hard I mean I would put support systems in place and there's only so much you can do. I mean, if you look at mental health workers, psychologists, psychotherapists, it's very interesting if someone comes to me and says, I'm thinking about killing myself. I'm an under no, again, I have to say ethically,

where am I with that? Okay. How much do I believe that they're actually going to do this? Is this an empty threat? Okay. Let's talk about this. In terms of a partner, it's very difficult because they would have to have their own support system in place and they would not necessarily have to, but if they feel comfortable, try and put as many things in place to support that person. Would you suggest, for example, an intervention of, look, I've called your family and I'm concerned.

Family, friends, mental health workers, if they've gone to therapy before, their therapist, all of those things, depending on what they're going through, rehab. But the client has to agree to that. The person has to agree. Which brings me to my final question, really. What should Anya's boyfriend be doing for himself? Because so far we've really focused on what can Anya do? What can he do? I mean, again, this is a really tough one. When people are depressed, they don't see it as a choice. It's not like they want to be like that, but they have to be at a point where they can either, if they think they need medication, they could go to the doctors. If they think they need therapy, they go, they need to do the work.

That's the only thing that will work in the end. But it's difficult when we feel that low to do that. It's so, so hard. But most people I've worked with, they just get to a point where they just get fed up of feeling fed up. So they do something. If you can do anything, if you can walk outside, if you can get to your GB, if you can go and see a friend, anything is better than doing nothing.

Anything. That's such sound advice, isn't it? Anything is better than nothing. And actually, I love the fact that you're talking about do the work, you have to do the work. I think often, and you must see this as well, Sam, that, and I've certainly got friends in this situation where they've had a lot of therapy, but nothing seems to be changing. So what do we say about that? That, I mean, that really you have to do the work. You've got to face yourself and you've got to make some changes. Is that right? You have to, you have to take action. So I always say to all my clients, it's great that we're in this space. We can talk, but I'm a massive, massive believer. You have to do something. You have to activate the choices that you've made and do something

or nothing will change. What about say, you know, there are people with the victim complex. There's some people, and I don't know if this is Annie's boyfriend, but there are a lot of people who they get depressed and yes, they are in pain, but there's something in them that likes the identity of victim and my therapist has told me about this of how like there are some people who just keep coming and they don't want to do the work they want to have the pity and they want to see themselves as a victim oh oh and like what do you do as a therapist I mean that's actually a psychological I suppose space that we call it a secondary gain. So what's the secondary gain

of you being like this? You get a lot of attention. You get people to care about you. You get to talk about it. So I'll say to clients, do you actually want to change? And a lot of them say no. They're that honest. Yeah. They say, actually, if I could wave a magic wand and say it's gone now, you've got OCD, you've got ADHD, whatever it is, if I could wave it and it's gone, would you want that? They say no, because they it is if I could wave it and it's gone would you want that they say no because they don't know a world without it it's very it's very confronting to think okay this is what I've been living with suddenly it's gone who am I without this thing

so it's like their structure yeah exactly live without exactly interesting well it's it's how's that behavior serving you even though it's a really negative behavior and it's driving everybody away how's it serving you I think you know Sam says what it gets your though it's a really negative behavior and it's driving everybody away, how's it serving you? I think, you know, Sam says, well, it gets your attention. It's who you are. And that could be very difficult, can't it, to change? Because we identify with that. That becomes part of who we are, our narrative. And if we take that narrative away, what are we left with? We have to have something else to replace it. So the work has to be done. If this is gone, what does it look like? And we start to rebuild and scaffold your life like that. But it is, you know, if we've had some, if someone says I've been suffering with anxiousness for 20 years,

take that away. Where'd they go? It's quite frightening actually, even though it's negative. But our brains are primed. Two thirds of our thoughts, our brains were primed for the negative. It's only one third that's primed for sort of positivity. So we really have to work hard against it all the time. Anya, if you're listening, thank you for sending in your dilemma. I have to say that you sound like a really supportive, brilliant girlfriend. And to be honest, I think your boyfriend is very, very lucky to have you there by his side. So I hope that today's conversation was helpful to you in some way. And we'd really love it as a team if you kept in touch with us and you let us know how it's going on. And of course, thank you to the two gorgeous women sitting across from me. The empathy

and the wisdom that you've both brought to today's conversation has been really invaluable. So I've learned a lot today. So thank you. Thank you. To you both. Thank you all for opening up. It's just so nice. I love these kind of deep conversations.

Yeah. I think they're important. They're important to have. We do have a little bit more work to do before I can release you from your pen. Because I've got a couple of quickfire questions that I want to launch at you. Is that okay with you both? Great, yeah, bring it on. All right, all right. The first one is from Stephen, and he's from Glasgow. Hi Anna, it can't just be me who really struggles navigating my desire to stay in and my partner wanting to go out all the time. They're an extrovert and I'm an introvert and I want to know how we balance our needs

in a way that makes us both happy. Crikey, Ivana. Gosh, I don't know if I could be with an extrovert for this reason. Really? Yeah, I don't think I could live with them. I don't think so, no. Because I really, when I go home,

I'm like, this is where I recharge. I actually fell out with a roommate over that particular situation because he just thought I was so boring. And he just like, we've gotten so well as friends. But then when I moved in, he just wanted to go out every evening. And I was like, this is incredibly stressful. So I don't know, with a relationship, I'd probably be like, you have to work out a compromise. Like maybe is there two evenings a week where it's like, that's it, you're going out and they have to respect that you need your space to recharge but yeah that's a hard one I mean Sam you were talking about the t's and c's of relationships is this a t's and c's moment

this is something that couples talk about a lot actually is it it is yeah they come in and say one wants to go out the other one doesn't and you're so right it's the idea of the compromise okay let's look at the week let's structure it it, let's have a conversation. But I think it's just a negotiation and deciding what works for the both of you. And speaking as an introvert, I would say to them, it's very important for us to be prepared for like going out. Like if I have to mentally psych myself up, but if he says on Thursday we're going out I'll get there you know but if they spring it on you absolutely not not going out so I think yes just speaking as an introvert I think that's important to communicate that needs to be planned. And just in terms of

these terms these labels of introvert and extrovert what exactly do they mean Sam because I know you're not a fan of labels. Well it's always that the extrovert is meant to be positive and out there and fun loving and the introvert is boring and at home, never going out. I mean, it's that kind of thing. That's what people think. It isn't that. It's just, again, those labels are so reductive. And we don't fall into two labels either. So I suppose it's this idea of looking at our partner holistically and saying, well, what does this look like? Sometimes maybe they do want to go out all the time. Maybe not other times. Sometimes I'd say strip away the label. And as you said, know your partner and what works for them and yourself. Thank you. You two moving on. The next one is from Amy from London.

Hello, Anna. I'm 25 and I've got a problem. I'm not sure if I should share it but I am a virgin and I'm 25 and I'm just not sure if it's normal. All of my friends aren't virgins so it's quite disheartening to hear that I've been left sort of in the dust and collecting dust by the sounds of it. But yeah, I know that it can't just be me. So yeah, just looking for some advice on that. Thanks, darling. I love Amy. Me too.

That was some amazing energy there. Thank you, Amy. Ooh, so Amy's 25 and still a virgin. Ivana, what would you advise? God, I think more power to you, Amy, for knowing. I mean, I don't know the circumstances, but knowing your boundaries, not being peer pressured into it. I was peer pressured into it from the career I chose because I was auditioning for all these parts of sexy 16 year olds, whatever, which is not me at all. And so I kind of was like, oh, better get it out

of the way, which I did. And I really regret that. I wish I'd slowed down because it was like rushed. It was meaningless. I'll just say to Amy, I don't know a whole lot about sex. I really, I still feel like a novice, even though I'm in a long term relationship. But what I learned from it is it's so much better when you slow down with everything. So exactly what you're doing, like being sensitive, protecting yourself, I think keep that approach and you'll find the right person to trust. And even when you get to that point, when you know you want to be with someone that way, slow down every bit. It's just so much better. So I wouldn't feel bad. I would feel proud of that and also feel free to make that choice when it's right. But so many people I know regret just getting it out of the way.

It was a wasted moment. That's such perfect advice, Savannah. It really is. Because I think if I look back at my teenage years as well, I think I probably feel the same way, which is like we're just in such a rush to get it over and done with and then go, yeah, you know, I've had sex for the first time and it's done. But you're right. I mean, Amy, yeah, you know, I've had sex for the first time and it's done. But you're right.

I mean, Amy, yeah, reclaim this and more power to you. Your body knows. Yeah, body knows. And actually, it's not a competition. It's not a race as to, you know, who can lose their virginity the first and have the most sex. You just wait, girl. And do you know what?

The greatest advice that I can give you is wait for the right person to do it with. If that's one thing that I could say is don't rush it and make sure that he or she deserves you. What would you say, Sam? I mean, I think you've said it all, both of you. I think wait till you're comfortable. There's a reason. And even that, again, I don't like the word normal. What is normal? Culturally, you know, in society, we've learned that, again, I don't like the word normal. What is normal? Culturally, you know, in society, we've learned that, okay, this is just what we do. Is it though? In some cultures, they don't do this. In some religions, they don't do this. And that's normal. So I'd say, go with your gut and do what feels comfortable for you.

Yeah. Ivana, it has been a joy. It's been a delight. It's been a total pleasure to have you join us on It Can't Just Be Me. Thank you so much for being so open. Thank you for your wisdom and your empathy and your care as well with today's dilemma. Thank you for having me and for creating this space. I just think it's so important what you're doing, like to normalize these conversations. And as you say, I have that thought many times a day, it must just be me so listening to this podcast really it isn't it isn't and of course thank you too to super Sam for joining us from the London practice and sharing your professional expertise it is just so lovely

to have you with us always Sam and I hang on your every word and I'm secretly stalking you because I want you to be my therapist so So until next week, my lovely listeners, when I'll be back with another episode of It Can't Just Be Me. In the meantime, please keep leaving your dilemmas at itcantjustbeme.co.uk or email them to me at itcantjustbeme at podimo.com. Whatever you're dealing with, whether it's love, sex, friendship trouble, or anything in between,

I want to hear from you. Nothing is off limits. You know that. And remember, whatever you're dealing with, it really isn't just you. From Podimo and Mags, this has been It Can't Just Be Me, hosted by me, Anna Richardson.

The producer is Alice Homewood, with support from Laura Williams. The executive producer for Mags Creative is James Norman Fyfe. The executive producers for Podimo are Jake Chudnow and Matt White. Don't forget to follow the show, or for early access to episodes and to listen ad-free, subscribe to Podimo UK on Apple Podcasts.