It Can't Just Be Me - 9: From burn-out to dating as a doting dog-parent — An extended quick-fire round with Owen O’Kane

Episode Date: June 21, 2023

Owen O’Kane is a best-selling author and a qualified psychotherapist. His advice is hailed by the likes of Benedict Cumberbatch, Dame Kelly Holmes, and Fearne Cotton, so Anna is keen to make the most of having him in the studio and mine him for as much advice as possible.  In order to take full advantage of Owen’s expertise, this episode runs a little differently than usual. Anna puts several listener dilemmas to Owen — ranging from bringing a partner home after coming out as gay, dating as a dog parent, burn-out, and grieving the breakdown of a friendship. Owen’s advice is as broad-in-topic as it is fascinating. There really is something for everyone in this episode!You can find out more about Owen and his brilliant work by visiting his website, and you can buy his three books — How To Be Your Own Therapist, Ten Times Happier, and Zen to Ten — at all good booksellers. …Have questions about sex? Divorce? Motherhood? Menopause? Mental health? With no topic off limits, Anna’s here to prove that whatever you’re going through, it’s not just you.If you have a dilemma you’d like unpacked, visit itcantjustbeme.co.uk and record a voice note. Or tell Anna all about it in an email to [e-mail] podcast contains adult themes that may not be suitable for children. Listener caution is advised. Please note that advice given on this podcast is not intended to replace the input of a trained professional. If you’ve been affected by anything raised in this episode and want extra support, we encourage you to reach out to your general practitioner or an accredited professional. From Podimo & Mags CreativeProducer: Alice Homewood with support from Laura WilliamsEditor: Kit MilsomTheme music: Kit MilsomExecutive producers for Podimo: Jake Chudnow and Matt WhiteFollow @annarichardso and @podimo_uk on Instagram for weekly updates Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Now, before we begin, I just wanted to tell you about a brilliant podcast that I've been listening to that I think every single one of us will benefit from. It's called Therapy Works, and it's hosted by bestselling author and psychotherapist Julia Samuel. Julia invites us into her therapy room where she speaks to either a known or unknown guest about a particular challenge that they're facing. And the topics range from the difficulties of divorce or a life-changing illness to the struggles of motherhood, for example. Julia provides her guests with valuable advice, and you'll find that each episode resonates regardless of what the topic is. What's even more special is that at the end of every episode, Julia's joined by her two psychotherapist daughters, where they reflect on their mother's therapy session that she's just had and share their own insights. It's incredibly interesting

to listen to. So search Therapy Works wherever you get your podcasts and subscribe to make sure you never miss an episode. Hello and welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. Now, in this episode, we're doing things a little differently from how we've done them so far. That's because we're joined today by a very special guest, the superstar psychotherapist, Owen O'Kane. And I want to get as much value out of him as humanly possible. So instead of focusing on one main theme today, we're going to be tackling several dilemmas and putting Owen to the test in a kind of extended quickfire round. Are you ready? Okay, let's get going.

Hi Anna. Hey Anna. Hey Anna. Hi Anna. Hey Anna. Hi Anna. Hi Anna. Hi Anna. It can't just be me who's really struggling with staying faithful. I definitely got menopause brain. I really want children and he doesn't. I had feelings of jealousy. It's just all around the middle. I feel like a Teletubby. And then I hated myself for feeling that way. If you've got any advice. I would really appreciate any advice. It can't just be me. It can't just be me, right? Now, if you've read one of Owen's bestselling self-help books or you've seen him on TV, you'll know that he's quite simply a brilliant man. He's a qualified and practising psychotherapist and, fascinatingly, says that his previous career as a palliative care nurse shapes a lot of the

work he does today. He claims that caring for people in their final days gave him a powerful wake-up call to let go of the stresses and worries that plague everyday life. I mean, come on, what a message. It's no wonder that he's attracted fans like Dame Kelly Holmes, Fern Cotton and Benedict Cumberbatch, who all swear by Owen's books. So, if like me, you're thinking, this is a man I really need some advice from, then look no further, because here he is. Owen O'Kane, it is an absolute joy to finally meet you in person. You and I have been following each other. We know each other kind of socially, professionally, but we've never actually met in person. So it's so lovely to have your face

beaming across. Ah, likewise. Good to meet you. Look, we are lucky to have you here because not only are you a renowned psychotherapist, but you're also a best-selling author of three books now. You've got something of a cult celebrity following. So I'm really keen to squeeze as much useful advice out of you as possible today. So are you prepared to be squeezed? Absolutely, always. I love that answer. But as always, before we get to our dilemmas, I ask every guest to share their very own, it can't just be me dilemma. So Mr. Kane, what have you got for us?

I probably have a dozen. We could probably do a show on that in itself. Sort of turn into a grumpy old man. But my big one, the thing that really bothers me is when you're on a flight and the person in front then puts their chair back. Oh, don't. I'm already getting upset. This happened to me last week. I was flying up to Glasgow

and it's only a short flight. It's only like 50 minutes or something. And the guy in front of me put the seat back. And I thought, oh, come on, mate. I mean, it was only 50 minutes. Who does that? Who does that, exactly? Now, here was the dilemma.

He had a little boy with him, and the little boy was a little bit hyper and acting out a bit, and I think part of him was reclining back to get a break from the little boy, to be fair. But I think for me,, here's my thing. I mean, you're always kind of thinking about why am I activated? Why is this really bothering me?

And I think it's about in the moment, it feels quite entitled. But actually the likelihood is I knew if I had spoken to the guy, it's probably got nothing to do with that. So I think we always in life, you're always having to hold on to this is probably my stuff at the minute.

In an ideal world, it would be great if you didn't do it. But actually, people are doing stuff all the time. So I think I get much better at kind of thinking, actually, this could be my stuff. It's a 50-minute flight. He's got a kid with him. It's not worth it. But at the same time, though, Owen, I mean, he just sounds like a bit of a twat. Potentially.

But, you know. I mean, you know, that kind of thing would just really wind me up it's as you say who does that can't bear it well listen it is good to hear that even a celebrity psychotherapist um wants to smash up a plane on his way to class but you've talked yourself down from that and recognize that actually this is triggering for me. So thank you for sharing that. I think it's time that we stop delving into your psyche because let's face it, it's a very, very dark place indeed. And let's turn to our listener dilemmas. It goes without saying that while you are an accredited psychotherapist, any advice you give out today can't replace a face-to-face appointment

with a professional. Would you agree with that? Yeah, absolutely. So if you're listening and you think you need support, do reach out to your GP or an accredited psychotherapist to make an appointment.

Okay. Now, Owen, as you know, it is Pride Month and you even came into the studio today, not only with cakes, but a rainbow bag to celebrate, which is just glorious. Now, I got this first dilemma through an Agony Aunt series that I'm doing with Metro. And I just know that the both of us will have a lot to say on this one. So here it is. It's from an anonymous sender. So I'll be reading this out.

Hi, Anna. I only very recently came out to my family and they were really supportive. But unexpectedly, despite my determination to embrace being single, I have a girlfriend. It's taken me well over a year to tell my family about her. And now that I have, I feel overwhelmed with anxiety thinking about introducing them. I know they'll love her, but I still don't feel ready. Can you help? What are your first thoughts about this? I'm curious about the fact that the parents have been accepting. Yeah. She's in a happy relationship, but there's clearly some block about bringing the partner home. And I guess you can only hypothesize, but you'd be asking questions about what that's about.

Is it fear of commitment? Is it some internalized homophobia about what it is to bring someone in home? Does that suddenly make it quite real? There's a difference from coming out than actually living. Living a lifestyle where actually it becomes quite true. So I think there's probably other processes going on there that, you know, would be really worth her exploring, thinking, okay, what stops you? What does that mean for you?

Because clearly something, like I talk loads about shame, particularly with the LGBT stuff, you know, and I, you know, I live and breathe this stuff because, you know, I understand shame very, very well, not only professionally, but personally. I'm a gay guy so so coming out for me Irish Catholic and gay you know I thought being gay was just wrong and shameful and dirty and you know all of the things that come with with shame all of them were there for me because I grew up in a culture where to be gay was wrong end off there was no middle ground so I'm you know, in my work, I'm interested in it because, you know, I've had to journey through that road of kind of thinking I don't want to live feeling shamed.

And I think shame's kind of very, very subtle and it sounds like, you know, whatever's going on here, unquestionably, shame's hovering in the background somewhere. It's fascinating because we would never in a month of Sundays be having this conversation if this was someone calling in saying, oh, I'm a straight guy or I'm a straight girl and I've met somebody. We wouldn't be having this conversation about the deeper layers. So we'd just be about, okay, what stops you bringing them home? Are you worried about the commitment aspect? But we wouldn't be going to the shame now.

Yeah, no, we wouldn't, would we? I mean, because reading this immediately, I was thinking, well, hang on a minute, your family is really, really supportive. So I did wonder, as you've just picked up on, is this an internalised issue with her being a lesbian, that somehow, as you say, perhaps there's shame attached, or she's just uncomfortable with it in some way, particularly because she was saying that, you know, she wanted to embrace being single, but then she's found a girlfriend, which then leads us on to that next strand, which is, as you say, commitment. Is this a fear of commitment then, of being in a gay relationship? It could be that she's at a point where she wants the relationship to stay where it is.

I mean, it could be that the level where they are now, which is they're dating, maybe it's not too committed, maybe it's more casual, maybe that's right for her at the moment. So if there's pressure to meet the parents that actually isn't right for her, that will be a different conversation because it could be more clear cut that actually I'm just not ready. Owen, thank you so much for that. And needless to say to you and also to the person that sent this in, happy pride. And may we celebrate being our own perfect individual, wonderful selves. Okay. I think the next dilemma is especially relevant to the both of us because we're both dog parents. This also relates a little bit to our last episode with Ivana Lynch, because it's all about the importance people place on their pets. This person wanted to

stay anonymous. So let's call her Georgia. And I was hoping you'd be able to help me. I've got two dogs and consider myself a very proud dog mom. Although potential boyfriends just don't see the relationship with the dogs in the same way that I do. And that's causing difficulty because they're not including them in the plans. They don't understand why I would not want to leave the dogs for periods during the day. So how do I get a potential partner to consider my dogs in the same way that I do? Thank you. Wow. I mean, look, I think this is fascinating and I've got to confess now that I've been on both sides of this coin and I've got an amazing gag here. It's a bone of contention for couples all over the world. What do you think, Owen?

Because you love your dog. Yeah, yeah. You've got to ditch the guy. Really? No, I'm kidding. I mean, I think it's a really tough one because, I mean, I am a dog lover. We had Kate, our old dog, for 15 years.

We've got the new fella now, Will. He's two and a half. And they do become the centre of your world. They're family. I mean, I do believe that fundamentally. I think for people who haven't got kids, you know, they become, I think, a lot of paternal instincts go in to your animals.

I really fundamentally believe that. Of course. So to kind of compromise and accommodate and be expected to leave them and for people not to see that they need to be walked and they can't be left for long periods of time. I think actually that's a really basic understanding of the responsibilities of having a pet.

I get this all the time. Sometimes I go out and I'll meet mates for dinner and stuff. And I have this kind of clock in my head. I can be out for about three hours. If my other half's at home, it's absolutely fine because I know the dog's been looked after. But if no one's at home after three hours, there's this mental clock that will go off

where I just think, I need to go back. And I have friends who just don't get it. I mean, like I'm all about flexibility and meeting in the middle and stuff. But I think if this is a member of your family and you love your pet, I don't really think you should have to explain that or compromise yeah I mean I'm just I'm looking and nodding and thinking through this

whole thing because when I first met Sue my my ex-partner who I'm really really close to still um she had two beagles who were I mean to be to be honest i mean they were terrorists i mean if you know anything about beagles yeah they're absolutely driven by their nose and food and they are you know they were the two most destructive things i've ever come across in my life and sue being sue you know sue's not great with discipline around this kind of thing. So when we first met each other, I was a bit like, your dogs have just dragged my bin through my flat, eaten all the cat food. So, and she was like, yeah.

So, you know, it did bring, and I grew to love them, obviously. But to begin with, it was quite tricky. But then having said that, when i met my current partner my boyfriend um i've got i've got a dog piggy um a staffy and his attitude was i really hope she's not coming on the bed with us is she and i'm like yes she is and love me love my dog dog. So I've kind of straddled both sides of this argument. Fundamentally, I do feel now that you're right. Your pet is part of your family. And yeah, you may have to compromise in a relationship with somebody,

especially if they're not animal lovers or they struggle a bit. And sometimes we're not great dog parents because maybe we let them get away with a bit too much. much but ultimately it is about it is about compromise and acceptance isn't it it is but look I have to hold my hands up I mean we're ridiculous for our dog our dog won't drink water out of a bowl honestly this is hard I mean it's gone crazy with him in the minute I have to bring a glass to him but he won't drink the water yep he kind of move around what he likes and what he doesn't like and you know I've kind of created a monster in a way because I mean he will he will refuse to

eat dinner unless we we do these things when our friends come and they watch all of this play out and one of us we've got oh Will needs a drink and then suddenly we're going for they're looking at us if I have to say are you for real, come on, this is just on another level. So it's very normal for us. But I think if you think of the concept of family, then you respect the dog as family. So who do you think needs to be flexible in this situation then with Georgia? Because obviously she's wanting to meet a partner. She loves her dogs.

Her boyfriends don't really get, you know, this whole sort of codependent need that she's wanting to meet a partner. She loves her dogs. Her boyfriends don't really get, you know, this whole sort of codependent need that she's got with them. So if she wants to meet somebody and have a happy relationship, what should she do? She needs to find a dog lover, doesn't she really? Yeah, maybe that's just the end of it. You just need to find a dog lover. Or if she finds somebody that isn't a dog lover,

I guess she's got to be really clear about, you know, what's important for her. So I've got to ask you, let's say that you and your other half were no longer together and you met a new young buck that came into your life. And he wasn't so sure about Will having his own personal glass of water and a rotating selection of menus. What would you do in this situation would you compromise or would you just go no the will always comes first do you know I think if you'd asked me this question 10 15 years ago I probably would have been more flexible but I think if I've been really honest at this point in my life I, if you don't like the dog, and I'm really sorry, but I don't care how hot you are, it could work.

I love this. I love this. Okay, I think you and I are probably both in complete agreement, which is the dog comes first. The dogs come first, Georgia. The dogs come first. Okay, so let's hear our next dilemma. This one is from Tara, who sent this in via email. So I'm going to be reading this out. Hi, Anna. I'd love some tips on how to deal with burnout. I went through a really stressful period at work at the start of this year, and I feel like however much time I

take off, I can't recover. I long for that refreshed feeling you get after a holiday, but everything feels like climbing a mountain thinking and planning and conversing at work and even with friends feels almost painful and I just don't care anymore about how my projects turn out so far I've been barely scraping by by taking my holiday allowance but I have an appointment with my GP scheduled and I'm going to ask if I can be signed off work. I'm just dreading telling my boss as I think people will think I'm making it all up. I've heard of people taking weeks and even months off and still not feeling better.

I'm scared that if I don't improve, I'll have to leave my industry, which I used to love. But now all I want, if I'm honest, is to lie on the sofa and take zero responsibility for anything. What's happening to me? And how can I get out of this? Now, Owen, I know there's a lot to say about this. But what we do know is this is becoming a common problem. According to research conducted by the private health company Westfield Health, 46% of UK workers are close to burnout at the moment, which is extraordinary. That's high. So shall we start with what exactly is burnout? Yeah, I mean, look, it's been around for a long time. It's not actually a diagnosis, so it's not a clinical diagnosis. You'll not find any clinical diagnosis of burnout you'll hear it described so you've burnout emotional exhaustion nervous breakdown essentially

it's that point when somebody is struggling to the point where everyday functioning is becoming a problem i guess really if i'm working with someone i'll always talk about if the if the bad days are beginning to outnumber the good days and that's going on for a few weeks and it's not improving, then the likelihood is you are exhausted. But things like, you know, feeling more irritated than normal, not sleeping well, changes in appetite, difficulty concentrating, personal relationships start to become a bit frayed and a bit more difficult. So it'll play out.

If you and I went into a period of burnout, it will look different for you than it will for me but these are kind of the more common factors that you will get but I think generally most people describe feeling just not bothered by you know just can't be bothered it's that sense of overwhelm isn't it yeah just maybe it's useful to look at that anxiety state of fight, flight, freeze. And maybe in this situation, this person's just going, I'm so overwhelmed that I'm freezing. I mean, the interesting thing about burning out is it's actually a really helpful thing because it's the brain's way of communicating really clearly, okay, you've gone over the threshold. So actually, even though it feels really uncomfortable, okay, you've gone over the threshold. So actually, even though it feels really uncomfortable, it's the brain trying to help you out.

I talk about, there are three things that we're driven by as human beings. So threat, drive and soothe. Okay. So every person I meet who's struggling, regardless of what's going on in their life, they'll normally come with a really highly activated threat system, which is basically our anxiety system. So we're in this hypervigilant state, feeling we need to be on guard, watching what's happening, needing to be in control, struggling with uncertainty. So most people have a highly elevated threat state, which is what we know as anxiety. Okay. The other thing is drive. So a lot of people are driven by the need to be better, to be doing more, to be achieving, to to succeed in life to not want to be seen as feeling or not doing well in any way so

a lot of people have got highly activated drive systems but then when we go to the third one which is soothing i would say probably 95 of people i meet when they come into therapy highly activated threat highly activated drive but then when it comes to the self-soothing system, it's totally redundant. Yeah, they don't know how to self-soothe. We crash land into adulthood, really, with no idea how to manage the big stuff, because I think most of us haven't been taught. So I think with burning out, you know, what burnout's trying to communicate is, okay, you need to reduce your threat.

You need to probably balance drive out and you need to activate the internal soothing system. The soothing. That is really fascinating because if we're saying you need to balance out the threat, I suppose life is difficult, isn't it? Life is really demanding right now. So if you can't block that out or manage that because there's just too many demands on you, do you then, as you say, just amp up the soothing? Well, what you're trying to do, if you take them individually, so threat, if you look at threats, basically anxiety. So a definition of anxiety is an intolerance of uncertainty. So there's a clue in the title, really. If you're intolerant of not knowing or if you're intolerant of challenges or difficulties then

you're going to struggle so with the threat what you're trying to do is you say okay I need to get better at not knowing I need to get better at not being in control I need to get better at letting go more so if I'm working with somebody that's what I'd be focused on but in the soothing what you're trying to get them to do is okay you're teaching them how to quieten the mind yeah how to manage these really unhelpful thoughts because that's part of the problem with burnout is you know the the mind will go into a very self-critical mode right so it'll go into you're not good enough you're a failure you're rubbish what will people think of you and why does the mind do that why would it go into self-criticism because Because it thinks it's helping you out.

So even though it can feel like the most ferocious internal voice, it's actually part of the threat system that thinks, okay, if I give enough information that activates fear, it will prevent harm or it will prevent any further damage. If I encourage you to stay at home, then you're less likely to be at risk. Most people think it's a really bad thing. And they, of course, they turn it into an enemy and they get really conflicted. Whereas actually, if you think, okay, the critical voice thinks it's helping you out. And if you start to relate to it in that way, that it's just a ramped up version of a protector, then you can start to negotiate with it. Interesting. So you need to get to know your thoughts, how you're thinking, what your patterns are. So with anyone in Bernard, I'd say, okay, let's get to know your patterns.

Let's get to know the way you're thinking. How do you relate to those thoughts? You know, you got to remember, 90% of what we worry about comes to nothing. That's the evidence. And actually, what's interesting in this dilemma is that Tara here is saying, I'm scared that if I don't improve, I'll have to leave my industry. So there's that catastrophizing, isn't there? Yeah, absolutely.

You know, and this is what we do, isn't it? You know, if I don't get better, then this is going to happen and then I'll lose my house and we catastrophize. Yeah, exactly. The human mind does that. I'll just create a story and then suddenly it becomes enormous and then people feel overwhelmed. But here's the interesting thing. Like, you know, even if Tara needed to stop for a while, there'd be nothing wrong with that. And this is the thing really about being a human being.

We all think that when we're going through a tough time, that, you know, if I was going through a really tough time and I said, God, I'm really struggling at the minute, there would be part of my brain would come in and say, you can't really tell her that. You're a therapist. You can't struggle. What makes you think?

But the reality is part of me knows that you would get it because you're a human being and you probably had periods when you struggled so the bottom line is we all get it that's very interesting to hear because we assume don't we with psychotherapists that they're so zen and that you know they've got mental health nailed have you ever suffered with burnout have you met my partner you'll tell you different i do know i do know you're here the heart. Here's an interesting thing is years ago, one of my supervisors had a period. I mean, you know, I've had a long career.

My career has always been in frontline difficult stuff. So in my kind of more, you know, medical days, it was accident, emergency and palliative care. So they're both really highly acute, challenging environments. And a couple of years ago, I was talking to my own supervisor and I was starting to feel tired. I could really feel it starting to move in. And I noticed my concentration wasn't as good. And I was noticing that things that didn't bother me were bothering me more. So anyway, I sat down, I was talking to my supervisor and he said, where are you with the self-care stuff? And I know people get a bit funny about self-care and I think it's all a

bit fluffy and self-indulgent even myself as a kind of Irish man with a kind of you know get on with it and don't complain background mentality I wasn't doing the self-care stuff even though this is what I do for a living and I wasn't doing it not because I didn't want to it was because I didn't have time to so my supervisor was really he kind of looked at me really really sternly and he said, what do you mean you're not doing it? And I said, well, look, I've got loads going on at the minute. I'm trying to promote a book and I'm doing this and I'm doing that. And he said, but why are you avoiding the very thing that's going to enable you to do your job well? And I said, well, I've got, these other things are not going to do themselves. I've got to do them. And he said, but self-care is your job.

Oh, that's interesting it's not a luxury he said you cannot do your job you can't be a good partner you can't have sustainable friendships you can't have a full life if you're not going to commit to the own self-care stuff that is your job I mean that's fascinating because in a way it's all of our it's all of our jobs yeah It's all of our jobs. Yeah. Absolutely. Because if we don't then, we don't function and people don't get the best of who we are. Yeah. So I've got much, much better at, you know, looking at my diary for the week ahead and thinking, okay, what have I got in there? Where's the downtime? I think it's really interesting to hear this because, you know, you've had very, very stressful jobs. I can remember maybe about 10 years ago now, I was just utterly overwhelmed. I'd had way too much on my plate. And, you know, I can recognise

what you're saying about needing to be busy. And there's so many demands on us. In the end, I had to pull out of a new show that I was doing. And I felt really embarrassed and ashamed about having to do that and actually in the end I took about three months off work and it was the best thing I could have done because I couldn't have gone and done that show well. I was just anxious and having panic attacks and exhausted so you're right about we shouldn't get to that point. Because I say to everyone I meet, the climb back from burnout is a much longer climb than actually if you can spot it early and you work out, okay, I'm not great at the minute, things are not good. The sooner you can catch it, then you can regain a sense of control.

Whereas actually, if you do fully burn it, you can recover. So don't get me wrong. It's not an awful news story. If you are experiencing really severe burnout, you can get back. But it does involve time commitment and a kind of wake up call really to... That's it. I mean, you're right. You're climbing the mountain back again, as you say, to wellness. But just try not to get there in the first place. In this situation, how should Tara talk to her boss about the fact that she is feeling overwhelmed and just reaching burnout? You know, look, I think if people just go in and rawly and truthfully just deliver what's going on for them, without trying to make it something different or without apologising for it, I think it's probably one of the most helpful things that she could do

because by and large, most people will find empathy within them and they'll say, okay, I'm happy to help you out. And this is what we're going to do. And then I guess really you develop a plan. Okay, this is what might be helpful. But it's not just about, I mean, I think it's often easy to blame it on work. And most people do.

Now, don't get me wrong. I appreciate a lot of people really struggle at work. But then when you sit down with them, you also discover, well, what's life at home like? And often you find a whole lot of stuff going on there, stuff within relationships, just complexities going on. What's your diet like? What's your exercise like?

Who are the people you have in your life at the minute? What work are you doing on yourself? What are your beliefs? So it's never, I think it's unfair to blame it all on work. It's a whole collection of things. Now, work might be a good starting point, but in my experience, this is often about a complete overhaul of your entire life, not just one thing. And I think it's important to touch back on what you said a second ago, which is you can recover from burnout. People do. I see it every day of the week. I see it every, and that's the part i find really exciting because when when you're in

a state of exhaustion or burnout it can feel hopeless and it can feel like there's no way out and i guess really one of the the only contract i ever have a reclient is when they come in at the beginning the only contract will be is okay particularly if they're feeling hopeless so they're feeling completely overwhelmed the only contract we'll have is that at the beginning I'll hold on to hope with a belief that they can improve and I say that confidently because I see people improve every day of my life and if they're not able to hold on to hope at the minute the contract is that they'll allow me to hold it and then bit by bit hand it over when they're ready and I've never once in my career have someone throw that back and say I can't do that. You see that's wonderful isn't it because

I guess all we want all all of us want is that connection and when we're feeling hopeless to have that safe person with us that's holding out their hand saying I'm here for you and I'm going to hang on to the hope for you because I think you can do this. I've seen people I am the cases come to mind. I remember in the NHS, a guy coming and his wife brought him to the therapy room. She drove him and he could barely walk. I mean, he was just absolutely overwhelmed,

exhausted, depressed. He had lost his business. A whole lot of things had gone wrong for him at one time. His parents died within a month of each other. I mean, it was just a whole catalogue of awful life stuff that happened to him. And I remember him sitting in the chair and he could literally, you know, he could literally not, he couldn't lift his head really. And even to try and get a sentence from him was a real struggle. And then when I did get him talking, he was quite

angry. How are you going to help me? This is bullshit. You know, you can imagine where it went. It was really difficult and it was fascinating just to watch him week by week, You know, you can imagine where it went. It was really difficult and it was fascinating just to watch him week by week, you know, just beginning to recover. And just literally watch him, you know, he was like folded over. And just almost week by week, just watching him kind of literally start to come back to life again in some way and find. So, you know, what I would say if anybody is listening and they're feeling that, it's a temporary state. And I can't say that enough because in the middle of a dark period,

we think it's permanent because we're so submerged in the, you know, our minds just get so overwhelmed. It's a temporary state and temporary states do pass and you can work your way through them. But it is about that courage of stepping forward, asking for the support, be willing actually to allow it to be.

No one else will be judging it the way you are. No one. If you broke your leg, you wouldn't be lying there giving yourself a hard time. It would be okay. This is a period of recovery. It's no more different when our minds struggle. Owen, thank you.

And Tara, I really hope that that was helpful for you. I've got, and Owen does as well, so much sympathy for this situation. And I guess I want you to be reassured that hearing Owen's words, this is a temporary state and you will get back to your happier self soon. Okay, let's hear our next dilemma. This is from Becky, who sent us a voice note. This is from Becky, who sent us a voice note. Hi, Anna. My name's Becky. To be completely honest with you, and as extreme as this might sound,

I feel like I'm in a bit of a grieving stage for my best friend as we've completely gone in different directions. She was once my go-to person who I would call in any crisis. But at the start of last year she went through a really bad breakup and then recently lost her job which I completely understand is really tough but it's like she's a totally different person now she wants to go out drinking all the time and randomly invites other people when we're meant to be hanging out just the two of us whilst I'm more of an introvert and do struggle in big social groups. I had some bad family news recently so I could really do with her support like she used to give to me but it just feels like we're speaking totally different

languages. She just makes light and jokes of everything and I just want to get a bit real. We're in our mid-30s and she's always saying how much she misses the old me, who used to go out and drink with her and it just feels like she's on this self-destruct path and trying to drag me along with her and I'm starting to dread the idea of even speaking to her. So do you think we've run our course and do I need to call it to her face? And lastly, how do I get over the loss of this friendship? Becky's talking about grieving here. And actually what struck me about this dilemma is the fact that her friend has suffered so much loss.

Her relationship ended. She's lost her job. ended she's lost her job so for me listening to this what I'm hearing is one person that is going through her own grieving process of having lost their partner having lost their stability their job everything so they're regressing to being in a state of being free of responsibility just wanting to go out and you know just get wrecked all the time which let's face it we've all done and then with Becky going well I'm grieving as well because I've lost my best friend so let's talk a little bit about that why does it feel when we go through these difficulties with friends that it's like grief it's interesting because look grief you

normally think about when we think of death you know it's normally associated with death but I mean there's a load of research and like grief and loss you know they they can all they all fall under the same umbrella but they play out in different ways and you know both people here have had loss you know they both experienced loss in their lives and had difficulties the the only difference is that one is behaving in a way that's different to the other so one is kind of acting out and coping in a different way. Now, this is the interesting thing. I guess a lot of people listening might be thinking, okay, the friend who's going out drinking and doing what she's got to do,

you know, people might see that as a more dysfunctional response. But here's where it gets a little bit controversial. So some of the research would say that when someone's going through a really, really tough time, that there are periods

when a period of denial may not be an unhealthy thing. Really? Yeah, we all kind of go into this kind of Dalai Lama state of thinking that people should respond in an ordered, rational, emotionally sensible response. But that's not always how it's going to be. And it might be that for, I mean, look,

I mean, I'm sure it's the same for you. I've watched situations over the years where I've watched people and I am thinking, okay, this feels like they're going off the rails a bit and it's a bit worrying. But actually for the person, it feels okay because they need to get. Now, I'm not saying, and without fuller context, it's difficult to know, but it could be that this is the friend's way of dealing with a situation at that moment in time.

It doesn't mean again that it's a forever state. It might be that she needs to just go through that. My feeling listening to this was, you know, wanting to say to Becky, your friend has lost so much. And, you know, as you rightly say, she is going out. This is her way of dealing with that chaos right now. As you say, it's temporary. And so I wonder whether Becky could be just more curious,

you know, as you mentioned about why her friend is doing this and maybe just have that compassion of she just needs to do this right now and it's not going to last forever. And I'm still going to be there for her at the end. I guess the challenge with it is Becky's focused on what she's lost because she, you know, at this moment in time, she feels like she's losing the friend and she needs her friend at the minute because she's got difficult stuff going on in her life. So it's a very humane response to think, okay, we used to be this, but we're now that.

But that's, our relationships change. That's what happens. And I guess that's the same for every one of us. I mean, God, I've been in a relationship with my other half for 25 years and it's changed constantly over the 25 years. And it is being able to see, even in friendships, that they move and they change and life gets in the way.

So I guess, you know, I think one of the most helpful things they could do is probably sit down, talk it through with each other more, try to work at it. It doesn't mean that there's going to be a resolution. I think that an awful lot of us would just kind of let it fizzle out and we wouldn't want that confrontation and that conversation. Are you saying, no, no, look, man up, sit down. People just go into avoidance mode

and think, okay, well, I'll just let it be, hoping that it will resolve itself. But you've got two people here really struggling, you know, with a lot of big stuff going on in their lives. So, you know, they're kind of not bringing it out into the open. Look, in the world I am in most of the time, you know, if you don't process and you don't deal with stuff, then you get stuck. Yes.

You never know. You guys might just get through this. And actually, it might just determine whether or not you do become lifelong friends i mean either way it's going to mean that you'll understand each other much better yeah i think owen you have been amazing i just think that everything that that you do is just so beautifully well explained and just so simple you know even though there's such knowledge there's such so simple to understand which is which is unusual's such knowledge there, it's so simple to understand, which is unusual.

I thought it should be. It shouldn't be complicated. This is part of the problem, isn't it? These things often get over complicated and they're full of psychobabble and complicated theories, you know. And it shouldn't be. We're human beings, we struggle. The end.

Lovely listeners, do check out Owen's Instagram for more words of wisdom. And I'll be back next week with another episode of It Can't Just Be Me. If you have your own dilemma around sex, love, divorce, friendship, or anything else, please just leave us a voice note at itcantjustbeme.co.uk or you can email itcantjustbeme at podimo.com. Remember, nothing, and I mean nothing, is off limits. And whatever you're dealing with, it really isn't just you.

From Podimo and Mags, this has been It Can't Just Be Me, hosted by me, Anna Richardson. The producer is Alice Homewoodwood with support from Laura Williams. The executive producer for Mags Creative is James Norman Fyfe. The executive producers for Podimo are Jake Chudnow and Matt White. Don't forget to follow the show or to listen ad-free. Subscribe to Podimo UK on Apple Podcasts.