It Can't Just Be Me - Confronting Abuse with Sharon Gaffka

Episode Date: December 11, 2024

Anna's guest this week is Sharon Gaffka, former Love Island contestant turned political campaigner and ambassador for the domestic violence charity Refuge. As she shares with Anna, Sharon's journey has been remarkable; from teenage beauty pageant queen to civil servant, then reality TV star to aspiring politician – but it's not been without its challenges. Sharon talks frankly about the horrifying racist and misogynistic abuse she's experienced online, how her personal experience of getting spiked had a huge impact on her life, and how she wants to change the world so that young people no longer have to deal with these things. Experiencing any form of abuse or harassment can be extremely isolating, but Sharon wants other survivors to understand that they're not alone.Sharon is an ambassador for the charity Refuge, who support thousands of survivors every day, and runs the National Domestic Abuse Helpline, which is available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. If you've experienced any of the issues in this episode and need support, the number is 0808 2000 247. You can also visit their website nationalDAhelpline.org.uk to use live chat or request a safe time to be contacted. You can find all this information in the podcast show notes too. You’re not alone, and there is help out there for you. You can find other useful resources and support here: https://audioalways.lnk.to/ItcantjustbemeIG.Every Friday Anna, alongside a panel of experts, will be addressing YOUR dilemmas in our brand new episodes It’s Not Just You. If you have a dilemma or situation you'd like discussed, reach out to Anna by emailing [e-mail] or DM her on Instagram @itcantjustbemepod Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode we're going to be talking about some topics that could be upsetting, including domestic abuse and other forms of abuse and harassment. If you're looking for some help and advice, you can find some useful links in our show notes. Hello, I'm Anna Richardson and welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. If you've listened before, hello and if you're joining me for the very first time, it's great to have you here. This is the podcast that helps you realise you're not the only one. It's a safe space where nothing is off limits as we try to help you understand that whatever you might be going through, it's really not just you. So each week I'm joined by a different celebrity guest who will talk through the challenges and hurdles they faced in their own lives in order to help you with yours. I want to know about it all. The weird, the

wonderful, the crazy because these conversations are nothing if not open and honest. So, let's get started. You might know today's guest from the 2021 series of Love Island, but believe me, there is so much more to her than that. A former teen pageant queen, she became a civil servant at just 18, working in central government for six years, including during the pandemic. When she appeared on our TV screens, she was working full-time for the Department of Transport as well as studying law at night school. Since leaving Love Island, our guest has been passionately campaigning for better safety for women and girls.

She's been involved in crucial work around spiking and online harassment, both of which she's experienced personally. Her podcast, Girls Know Nothing, hosts interviews with inspirational women making real change in the world. She was named as one of the 100 most influential women in Westminster this year,

was selected as a UN delegate, and is an ambassador for the domestic violence charity Refuge. Welcome Sharon Gaffka. Thank you so much for having me. I mean how amazing to hear all of that Sharon. Do you know what sometimes I was saying to somebody the other day I forget that I did love Ireland because it feels like a massive like lifetime ago in a completely separate life to what I do now. So it's only really sort of three years ago isn't it? Yeah. That it happened but you're right it's a completely different chapter for you but before we really delve into any of that we've got so much to talk about

just tell us first what is your it can't just be me dilemma? Oh I think it can't just be me that thinks that Christmas song shouldn't be on the radio till December. Well okay so talk to me about this show because when do they actually start? Because I do they're not starting December? I heard the first one in October this year. No shut up. So I was like please just stop and I'm not screwed I love Christmas. The tree was up already before December but the idea of well actually it's any holiday.

Valentine's Day, Easter, Christmas anything like that If it's in the shops or on the radio way before the month. No. Unacceptable. Unacceptable. I think that is a very, very reasonable, it can't just be me, dilemma. So we're, but there's a little bit of tension going on here because on the one hand you're saying my tree was up way before December, but I won't tolerate a Christmas song before December. I feel like my tree was only up early because I had to get out the loft and my dad would only do it. At a certain given slot. And then it would just be sat there if I didn't put it up. July. So the tree's been up since July when dad came round.

Basically, yeah, so I think that's the only reason why I was up early, but I just, I feel like it takes the joy out of Christmas if we're like thinking about the commercial side of it too early I agree and do you feel well? No, I mean, it's not a politician answer at all I think it's a really well thought-through answer that do you think that we are becoming way too Commercialized when it comes to Christmas and we're missing the actual true meaning of it I think with any commercial holiday like with Valentine's Day I feel like it's always a one-upmanship about who gets what present as opposed to like actually loving the person that you're with or like with Christmas it's like who gets the biggest presents or who

can spend the most week as opposed to like enjoying time with your friends yeah with Easter like I love a cream egg I've been known to eat far too many but I don't want to start eating them when I should be eating Christmas cake. But have you really thought about this? I have, yeah. I will allow it, Sharon, you're quite right that actually it isn't just you that hates Christmas songs that start way too early in the season, it just goes on for too long. I'll give you that, I'll give you that. Now listen, just reading your intro, you have got an extraordinary biography.

You really have. And given your political career in the civil service, what made you pivot and decide to do that massive ITV show Love Island? It's actually a really funny story. I actually had never watched it before participating in the show. I think I'd watched a couple of episodes in the summer season before because I knew a couple of people that were in it but I had no intention of deviating from my career like that is what I wanted to do ever since I was a kid but it wasn't until my colleagues told me to apply because they thought I'd be really good on the show so actually it was my own team that convinced me to apply and I never would have done it if it wasn't for them.

Really? Yeah. So it's a team in Whitehall that basically said, what do you do? Love Island? They were like my work moms because we were all over zoom at that moment in time and I think you know all of the senior management team were basically women and during our management meetings we'd have a little chin wag and they were like you're so funny you should go on Love Island and I was like no nobody needs that I don't want to subject the world to me being on national TV. So to stop them asking me, I just did the application. And then we found it funny. It was like next step, next step.

And then I got the phone calls to be like, you've got two weeks before you fly out. And I was like, oh, wow. I think I made a big, I didn't really think about it until I was actually sat on the plane at London City Airport about to take off and I was like oh I think I might have taken this joke a little bit too far. What am I doing? I'm now part of a massive ITV smash hit show. Yeah I really didn't think this through. So I mean obviously I work in television, I come from television production so I do absolutely understand the the ins and outs of it but for you as a contestant, what was it like? What was the reality of it like being on a show like that?

I think it's made me look at reality TV very differently. What do you mean? Because sometimes when you're on the outside and you're watching something you kind of, it's very hard to remember that it's edited, it's condensed time, and you don't see the full picture, and you also forget that a lot of the safety net of all of the contestants are removed in the process. So, you know, I always explain to people that it's like COVID lockdown, but imagine if you weren't allowed out for your hour walk,

if you weren't allowed access to the internet, your books, your music, all that stuff, and then you're forced to live in a smaller accommodation villa with, I think I was living with 13 other people at one point, which as someone who lives on their own is a massive change. Of course all of your emotions are going to be completely heightened and you might react to things very differently. You are in a condensed space being watched 24-7, television is very tiring as well. So

there's a lot of demands on you. So do you think that you're sort of being pushed to then express an emotion that you probably wouldn't normally? Yeah, and I think I remember actually seeing tweets about someone not liking my body language but I realized the way I was sat isn't because I was being hostile or my body language was a certain way based on what I was feeling. I was worried about because you're wearing a bikini 24x7. I was worried about what my body would look like on camera and I was worried about because you're wearing a bikini 24 7. I was worried about what my body would look like on camera And I was doing that Every single minute of every single day, which is exhausting to do for five minutes that alone 24 7 So I was sitting in a way that wouldn't let my skin fold because I didn't want to be trolled

And you say I find that really interesting the kind of dichotomy Really that you embody of being an incredibly intelligent woman and a very successful woman. And then here you are on Love Island, worried about what your body looks like in a bikini. Yeah. You know, how do you square that? I think I'd never I'd I mean, everybody has struggled with body image and self-confidence at some point. And I think at the moment I went in, I felt completely comfortable and sure of who I was and what my body looked like.

And I think when you're in there, you are standing next to some of the most attractive, physically attractive people in the country. And then also being pitted off against the other women based on your physical appearance, which is something that I, despite doing beauty pageants as a teenager, had never experienced in my life because of course, you know a woman of course a woman can have beauty and brains and ambition which clearly you have and As you say that you know, you were brought up doing beauty pageants. So you're a very beautiful woman Absolutely, that's to be celebrated. But what you're saying is actually I wasn't prepared for the

Competition of then having to be compared to other people. That is what was difficult. Yeah. And I actually did find it incredibly difficult. There are articles out there that I did get to read once I left the show that certain groups of men potentially were a bit intimidated by the things that I had achieved previous to going in. the things that I had achieved previous to going in and there were aired conversations about my career and who I am as a person which I actually found way more difficult than having my physical appearance being compared to everyone else because my career and you're attacking my career my

personality basically. So it's your intellect and your ambition that's being attacked here. Yeah I felt like that was something that was consistently attacked when I was there, which was yeah What do you put that down to then Sharon and in terms of the sort of gender difference and cultural differences We're talking about in the UK that that guys are looking To women to what to put up and shut up I think that the narrative was that I would, that women were still baby making factories. And this is the, I went back to watch some

of the conversations and it was that basically because I wasn't willing to just be a stay at home baby making factory, that that was some of the issues or concerns that were raised by some of the other contestants, which I found like absolutely God-snacking. And I think one of the first ever comments made about me was that I'm not the type of person you could take home to your mum. Meaning?

I still to this day don't know what that means. But that was the first comment that a man had made about me on the show, was that I was not the type of woman you could take home to your mum. Well, hopefully that meant that you're way too clever, actually, to be taken home in the first place. Yep.

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Get deals for every occasion with Dordash. ["Dordash Theme Song"] less frantic, get deals for every occasion with DoorDash. Love Island obviously gives people a huge platform and you could have done anything with that level of notoriety and scrutiny. What made you want to start campaigning? I feel like everybody has different motives for wanting to go on the show. I think I just wanted to experience something new and I think I wanted to break from what I was doing because I was working on COVID and Brexit

previous to going in and that was a very intense period of my life. So I just wanted to break. My intention was always to go back to my job. So I think that when I came out, I was, I told my parents, I'd give myself a year to enjoy, enjoy this life and then go back to work. But I think that if I did anything else, it wouldn't be true to who I am as a person. I remember saying as a child that I always wanted to work towards something that was bigger than me.

And politics was the subject at school that I loved. It's something that I'm really passionate about and you know it's the fundamental makeup of who I am based on my parents upbringing as well. So I just if I did anything else it wouldn't be me. So in a sense did you realize that actually I can use my platform on Love Island to actually spread a much bigger message politically? I think it was complete by accident as well actually. I think I'd left the show and I'd seen that some of the, so I live in Oxfordshire and Oxford brook students, I think at the time had experienced spiking

and were talking about it. And they were talking about lots of groups of women boycotting nighttime economy venues because of spiking. And the summer before I had actually been spiked myself. So I thought, well, you know, I'm watching these women be absolutely tarnished online. And I thought, well, I'm going to stand with them and say this happened to me too.

So what happened to you? So I was actually at a restaurant with my friends. It was lunchtime. We were having a couple of glasses of wine, some like food. And I remember turning around to one of the women I was with and said that I felt incredibly unwell all of a sudden.

I remember making my way upstairs to go to the bathroom, going to a completely separate cubicle. And that's all I remember until I regained consciousness in A&E later that evening. And all I remember from the A&E was all the white walls, the white curtain, the white ceiling, looking up, seeing lots of drips attached to me, and then coming around to a junior doctor

trying to take another blood test. Still to this day, don't know what any of these tests were for, don't know what any of the drips were, don't know how long I was in there, don't know how I got there. Well, apart from the fact that my friends had phoned paramedics, nothing. So how long ago was this?

That was in July, 2020. So we're talking just four years ago. Yeah. And this is in a public restaurant? Yeah. And had you left your drink? I mean, how did this happen? So at that moment in time, there were rules of six.

So you could only be around six people at a time. But there were people that were trying, like, you know, when people have had a couple of drinks, trying to mingle with other people. And I do remember a group of people hanging around our table so So you were spiked? Yeah. I mean that is incredibly traumatizing. It is it changes your behavior and how you socialize going forward and I think as well I never really thought about what the intention of the perpetrator was until probably the start of this perpetrator was until probably the

start of this year. And what is it now that you're campaigning around it? What is the intention of the perpetrator? Well, in my case, I believe that my perpetrator wanted to sexually assault me. And I didn't think about it because I've been so focused on the campaign. I didn't think about I kind of separated my experience from the campaign in a sense that this is just another case study, another story to tell. And it wasn't until I went to a roundtable that was hosted by Ladbible and hearing

everyone else talk about what happened to them as a result of them being spiked, it kind of triggered that feeling in me where I was like, Oh my God, this is actually what would have happened to me too. And to sit there and consider myself the lucky survivor that it didn't happen to was like one of the most horrific feelings ever because to consider myself lucky in that situation is awful. I know, I know, as a victim. Yeah.

Absolutely. And so how have you dealt with that now? Because that is traumatizing and you're talking about, you know, I've adapted my behavior now in public. What does that mean? So I think the experience that sticks in my head the most was I was in Austria, probably this time last year actually for my birthday. And I remember being in one of the probably bigger clubs in Vienna and my friends

were drinking, having a good time, having fun, as you would on a girl's holiday. I couldn't, I remember sitting in the chair, feeling very uptight, having to be hyper vigilant, observing everything that was happening to everyone, watching the because it was a table service thing, watching people pour my friends drinks. And I remember like lots of men had made comments to my friends about why was I so uptight? Do I not have fun? Do I not smile? And I can't I can't, I can't be here

and enjoy myself. So I think I remember saying to my friends that they are welcome to stay and I'm going to leave. We ended up leaving together and going somewhere where I felt a bit more like I was safer. In control. Yeah. But I couldn't enjoy myself because I felt like I was responsible for what could have, could or would happen to my friends. Really? So you felt responsible for for your girlfriends as well? Yeah I feel like that all the time. So my friends make jokes that coming out with me is like taking a bulldog out

with you because I'm so like aware of everything that's happening or people that are approaching and I don't like it so I'm like don't come up to us don't speak to us don't even look at us because of that experience. I can understand that. What lasting effect has it had on you, do you think? I mean, it made dating a bit of an interesting experience because you just don't know what the other person might think about you and your experience, because I'm so open about it.

Do they have that victim blaming mentality? Do they think that I'm partially to blame in the situation where I am to blame? Or that, you know. And what do you think? I'm not to blame at all. Absolutely not am to blame or that... And what do you think? I'm not to blame at all. Absolutely not. Yeah and I know that and I know that every like every single person that's ever spoken

to me about their experience is not to blame but we have this systemic culture of victim blaming. But you're you're worried that when you're dating that a guy might think well what were you thinking? Basically. Is this your fault? Yeah or past judgment on me based on things that I have done and put myself out there for.

That's extraordinary, Sharon. I mean, I can, I can understand why campaigning is such a passion for you and having to square that circle of actually campaigning for women's rights and for anti-abuse. And yet here you are going, but there's still a part of me that worries that did I put myself in a compromising situation? So that is still a work in progress, isn't it? Of actually just sort of squaring that circle and going, there's nothing to do with it.

It wasn't your fault at all. I always thought like, no, this is not my fault. I did everything right by the book. You know, I was wearing jeans trainers. I was out in daylight. I was with friends. I wasn't on my own, I wasn't irresponsible. And then it comes back to every time I talk about it, I'll get DMs from people saying, well, you probably asking for it, or you shouldn't

have done this. And I think that's what takes me to step back. Of course it does. Which again, is abuse. And you know, you've neatly brought us onto some social media and online abuse. You got quite a lot of abuse after Love Island, didn't you? I did, yeah. And what sort of abuse? Quite a lot of it was racial. And I think at the time, people probably didn't think it was racial.

Hang on, you got racial abuse after Love Island? Yeah. So for people that don't know, I'm a mixed race woman. My mum's Asian, my dad's Eastern European. And I had, at that moment in time, potentially whitewashed my appearance to fit in Eurocentric beauty standards. I had lip filler, my hair was blonde,

or to that shade, which is not natural for someone of my ethnic background. So I think people were very confused about my ethnic origins, and then were making comments about my physical appearance, which is actually linked to my race, as in my eye, my shape, and all these other things. This is just extraordinary to me. Yeah.

Comments about your eye shape. So your physical appearance that's linked to your genetics. Yeah, basically. And all of those things. Because I was very quiet about my parents and things like that, people weren't, people were unsure. And it's actually, I think one of the most Googled questions about me. But I had a lot of racial abuse and a lot of sexual abuse of a very extreme nature. And I remember one particular voice note I'd received, which actually shocked me

because I think Instagram a child on the islanders Instagram's like different security settings to be able to give you better protection But it's one voice note managed to get through the net and it was a group of teenage boys in Scotland Had made a fake account and sent me a voice note where they were basically telling me that they would Gang rape me in the street if they ever saw me and then they would kill me afterwards What do you make of this Sharon? Just because I imagine that if you were to meet those boys face to face then there's no way they'd say that to your face and that they're probably just utterly idiotic. What is going on that we have teenage boys leaving voice notes,

anonymous voice notes like that to a woman? Yeah, I think there's two things about it. So I, every single time I got a piece of abuse like that, I took it personally until I met a troll in the street, which was completely by accident. He was one of the very few people that didn't use an anonymized account. And he was actually from the town that I lived in. And I saw him playing in a park near my house with his daughter. And you recognized him. And I confronted him.

I'm a very confrontational person. So I just asked him if he had anything to say to me. And he just walked away very quickly. So I think that that's the turning point in my life where I was like, okay, these people actually don't stand by their words because they wouldn't say it to my face. So that helped me a lot.

And you called him out. And you shamed himamed him rightly and he couldn't deal with it. Yeah. Well doesn't that just say everything? So yeah that helps me like to separate what I'm getting from me as a person because they don't know me and they would never say it but I think that one of the problems we're having is that the way that social media is built and the way the algorithms are built we're having very extreme content gather a lot of traction online and it's streaming directly into the bedrooms

of young, impressionable and vulnerable teenage boys. I think I was looking at something earlier this morning where UNICEF has said at least one third of children have seen derogatory or content violent in nature towards women and girls and they can't do anything about it Yeah, and obviously once you've seen one and you engage with one it comes back around and it's consistent and it's you can't get rid of it You kind of have to start your account again

So so you think that basically younger people and of course adults but but younger Younger people are being flooded with misogynistic, sexually violent images and content that they are then responding to that they can't get away from. Yeah. But B, then feel that this is normalized. And so I'm just going to repeat it, even though I don't really understand it. Yeah, basically, that's exactly what's happening. And I mean, if you if we see X at the moment or Twitter that as a platform, I find incredibly distressing to go on and I'm almost 30.

So and I can differentiate like false information and things from online. But if you were a young impressionable 13 year old that was venturing out onto social media for the first time, if you opened X, you would find that incredibly distressing. Yes. It's one of those things sometimes when you're talking to young men or my experience of talking to young men, they'll talk about Andrew Tate and they'll be like, well, he said one good thing. So then they'll believe everything that he says.

And the one good thing that he talks about is like going to the gym and then everything else they just believe is a part of that, which I find incredibly weird and difficult. But I think it is becoming relentless that, you know, parents aren't able to see everything their child sees online. And it being consistently on in teenage boys bedrooms

is incredibly hard. And you received abuse when you were 14 as well, didn't you, online? Yeah, my first experience of seeing a naked man ever was an unsolicited photo via Facebook as when I was 14 years old from someone who I think was in their mid-30s, which is why I've had conversations with some incredibly difficult characters in the media about online abuse and like online safety

laws and they would say, well, you know, it's my fault because I wore a bikini on TV, I did Love Island. So it's still your fault. So it comes back back around to Sharon, it's your fault. Basically spiked for receiving, you know, an unsolicited naked male image when you were 14. Well, that's what I said. Like, you know, OK, you can say that to the 20 something version of me

that put myself in the public eye. But what are you going to say to the 14 year old version of me who was in her school uniform on Bebo sending love to her friends and all of a sudden receiving an unsolicited dick pic and then not knowing what to do because if I told my parents who weren't online, they would remove me from being online, I'd be isolated from my friends,

but then I don't want to see content like that. So what needs to change? What do you think needs to happen? Because I mean, it's very difficult, isn't it? Well, you can't police the internet. Yeah and social media. So What needs to happen? And what do you think about what? Australia doing at the moment in terms of banning social media for is under 14 16 under 16 I think in principle on paper

It sounds incredibly good that we're banning social media for people under age of 16 I think you're still very impressionable up until that point, but you know teenagers are very intelligent, they're gonna find ways around it, whether it's getting a VPN or you know telling their parents they're gonna be isolated from their peers if their parents don't approve, because they age-verified with ID, like if they don't approve their use of the platform, so I don't know if that's the right way to go just because I think they'll get around it. But it's a step though isn't it is this is a government doing something Yeah about the proliferation and and potentially will the harm of social media particularly for teenage brains

I think that education is the best form of prevention But haven't we been saying that for years? I mean we've been saying that about sex education Look at what a mess we're in with that But I think it's because we're not willing to reform it to the level it needs to be. So I've been in schools to talk about online safety is my part of my work with Refuge and about how domestic abuse can form online and with tech as opposed to just being physical. Absolutely. teenagers, there's a lot of things I'm talking to them about that their PHSE teachers can't cover, don't cover, won't cover because it's not part of the curriculum. And I've said this about a lot of different things that I work on in terms of violence against women and girls that PHSE needs to be intersectional, needs to be updated, needs to be relevant. Yeah. And it

hasn't been, I'm talking to 14 year old girls about what their experience of it is. And it's probably worse than it was when I was there I mean 15 years ago. I was I did a Several series of show called the sex education show for Channel 4 did see about 15 years ago and it hasn't changed since then Yeah, so, you know what you're saying is that pH se lessons needs all the curriculum needs radical Reform. Yeah, and I think that you know some parents may not want the curriculum to be what I think it needs to be but I think that we're being a little bit naive about what is actually happening in the real world.

Exactly, exactly what kids have got access to anyway so why aren't we at least sort of trying to stem this in schools? Yeah because I think like teenagers are now learning about sex through pornography, through extreme content on social media platforms. Which they have done for the last 20 years. Yeah. And it's not getting better if anything, it's going to get worse unless we tackle it head on. Like it might be too late for someone in my age group, but it's not too late for someone that is currently in primary school when they get to secondary school. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You mentioned refuge. Christmas is around the corner and we know that that means an increase in domestic abuse.

What would you say to people who might be anxious about the coming holiday? I think it's one of those things that's incredibly hard. I think people find it challenging because there's things like coercive control and financial abuse and tech abuse, which is incredibly clever and really difficult to separate yourself from. And I think as well, you get removed from your other loved ones, you feel like you are alone. There are people out there that want to help you. And I think it's about trying to tell people that, you know, taking the first step is incredibly scary. But people will believe you and will listen to you. And I think that had I known that about my experience of spiking that I Probably would have come forward and spoken about it to somebody

Sooner so I think it's about telling people that there are people out there to support you and will believe you and Going back to your experience you you chose to speak about it publicly. Yeah Why was that so important for you? I think that because we keep it so taboo and we think it's something that will never happen to us or so removed from us and only if happens in films or somebody you will never know, but it's everywhere. And I think it does come back to that education standpoint where you can't necessarily see the red flags in the beginning or you don't know what is considered abuse or not, because you think, well, maybe this person loves me,

but actually what they're doing is abusive because they're not hitting me. And exactly, and it's very difficult, isn't it, as you say, to separate out what is abuse, or what is controlling behavior, or what is not, where's the line? How do you try and fix it at what point do I leave? It's very it's mired in a lot of complexity, isn't it? Yeah, and I think one of the challenges as well is that with the cost of living crisis

Especially upcoming up to the festive period it makes it hard for people to leave because if your perpetrator is financially abusing you You don't even have access to your own money. And then housing costs are going up. And I was doing a piece actually where housing costs have gone up to the point where people don't want to leave their perpetrators because they've always, they've got a pick between homelessness and abuse. And that's a really horrible situation

to find yourself in. And also, you know, there is that sort of, that classic trope really of going, but when he's or she is great, they're great. When it's good, it's good. It's just it's just the rest of the time that it's awful. And your self-confidence just gets completely whittled down. So you're unable to discern between actually what is coercive control

and what is abuse and what isn't. Yeah. Have you experienced it yourself? Coercive control? Yes. Yeah, I would say I have. Yeah, I think that when you're young, you technically romanticize abuse in a weird way. What do you mean by that, that you romanticize it? I made a TikTok about how I think that tracking

your other half on Find My iPhone is incredibly controlling and abusive. And it can be, in the wrong hands hands it can be used as a tool for control. Yeah to control absolutely. Teenagers romanticize that they said actually no it's a form of love and care and like it's not. Sharing your location with a partner or friend on a night out so you don't lose your phone or they know where you are is a completely different thing to you know them watching you go to work watching you go to the, watching you go to the gym, watching you go. Yeah, all of the time. And I think that that's the difference.

And that's why education is so important because they are romanticizing that. And then it's the steady slope into other forms of abuse. And I think actually I was reading somewhere that coercive control is one of the deadliest forms of abuse and is linked to the most amount of homicides in relationships because once you leave they relinquish all control of you and then that's what gets them. And that's when it becomes incredibly dangerous and it's very difficult for people to leave their partner. I'm sure I read a stat at some point that said something like it takes women around three or four times of leaving their partner before they actually finally leave the relationship. They always come back.

Yeah. Because when he's great, he's great. And I still love that person. Do you know what's really weird? I also feel like it's a sense that you feel like a failure because we put so much pressure on women to still have the old fashioned like white picket fence life. Yeah. I felt like whenever I've broken up somebody

or when I'm single that I feel like I'm a failure as a woman. Well, you might just feel alone. It's incredibly difficult to be on your own and to be alone and to leave a relationship. Yeah. You know, I can understand that. So I get the idea that actually being on your own

and having to start again, and particularly if you've had a coercively controlling partner that controls your finances, then that's really difficult to do. Because people will often say, well why didn't she just go or why didn't he just go? It's not that easy. But your point is working with Refuge, actually there is help, there is support there. Yeah and they do some really amazing things like recently we were working on a brick by brick campaign to build more specialized safe housing for women that have needs for children and they do a lot of things about getting hampers out to women that need it and their helpline is 24 seven. That's fantastic isn't it so I mean there really is help if anybody

is worried either about themselves or somebody else in their lives then Refuge do have a helpline that's available 24-7. I think as well lots of time I get comments from men saying well it's a women's charity what about men but if you rang Refuge they would never like leave you on your own they would just direct you to the resources that you need so even if you are a man that's experiencing domestic abuse and you don't know where to go like even if you rang them they're never just going to be like well sorry you're a a man they would find a way to help you absolutely Sharon you've said publicly that you'd love to be a Labour MP the

country would benefit from your from your wisdom and from your clear intellect why do you want to go into politics I think it stems back to being passionate about something, but also I just have an inherent love for helping people and changing things. I don't know if there's a red flag in that somewhere, but I think that, you know, from the small amount of time that I have been campaigning, all the charities that I've worked with for majority of my teenage years. Seeing change in people has probably brought me more satisfaction than ever buying a designer handbag will. And I do like buying a designer handbag. But I think that seeing how politics has helped shaped the lives of people in countries that my family are from,

I want to be able to do that for my friends' kids. And if I have my own my kids Yeah, it's just one of those things a desire to serve and a desire to make a change Well, I think that's why I went into the Civil Service Because I wanted to be part of that and I just I had this inherent fear that politics wasn't made for somebody like me You know, I was young I was mixed race. I didn't come from Oxbridge I didn't have parents that were in the political sphere So I thought the Civil Service would be my only chance and

experience of doing something like that but you know if the Labour Party came knocking who knows. I think the Labour Party should come knocking. Okay let's take a quick break here but don't go anywhere Sharon because in a moment I'm gonna ask you to pick a question from my little box of truth. The only rule is you must answer and the answer has to be honest. Okay. You're an honest girl. I know that you can do this. Yeah, my mum taught me the line was bad, so... Welcome back to It Can't Just Be Me and I'm here with the extraordinary Sharon Gaffka and it's time for the It Can't Just Be Me box of truth, the moment when

celebrities start to become just a little bit schvitzy and sweaty and nervous. In front of you There is a pack of cards containing random personal questions. You're eyeing them suspiciously. I love it All you have to do is pick one. Okay, just randomly and just give an honest answer okay, so grab the box have a riffle through and Just pick one and read it out. This is why I'm really grateful for having very good setting powder. Or setting spray. Was that from the front? Middle.

Okay, allowed. At what age do you feel someone stops being attractive to you? Oh, that's an interesting one that's quite curvebally. At what age do you feel that somebody stops becoming attractive to you? So how old are you now? 29. Okay so you're 29 so where's the cutoff point for you in terms of finding someone attractive? and see this is quite nuanced. Yeah. I don't know if there's an upper limit. Because the oldest man I've ever dated was 45 and I was 25.

Wow, so 20 years. Yeah, so. But hey, but it worked. It worked for the time that it worked. For the time it was that it worked, yeah. That moment in time, I think I would struggle with somebody that's younger yeah you see I have this thing that I can't date somebody that's younger than me either yeah it kind of it just feels just I get the ick it's just a bit wrong I yeah I went on a date once with somebody who was 22 and I was 26 and I thought that was too much those four years yeah there's a lot that happens in those four years.

Especially in your twenties, right? Yeah. Okay, so you get the ick with dating somebody younger. Yeah. But somebody older, you haven't necessarily... So even though, I mean, would you find like a really old... I mean, you know, I'm being really ageist here. I'm going to get into all sorts of trouble with this, hang on.

So let's just unpack this a little bit more, that if you met somebody who is much, much older, even though you might not be physically attracted to them, or maybe you would, that actually there's also that intellectual attraction, isn't there? That you can fall in love with somebody of any age. Yeah, I need somebody that's going to intellectually stimulate and challenge me. But I have met friends dads and thought, yeah, I would go I met someone's dad that I was dating and thought, Oh, my God, I'm dating the wrong person. I should be dating your dad. Yeah. So why do you think that because he was just sort of intellectually more, you know, just just more impressive. Yeah, I think him as a person was more impressive,

but also I thought he was more attractive physically. So yeah, if it's not you, it's your dad. Why not? Definitely never been attracted to anyone's younger brother. So I can say that I probably prefer older men. Why do you prefer older men? I love that. So actually you're very open to that kind of age gap.

Yeah, and I think there's always negative connotations around it, but I think once you get to a certain age that actually it doesn't really matter. Like I think now at my age, it doesn't matter whether I'm dating someone my age or their dad. Well, exactly. I mean, you love who you love. I agree. At the end of the day. And you know, if you find them physically attractive and that's a boon, otherwise it's about you know whatever that energy is or that intellectual compatibility it's just about an energy isn't it? I think physical attraction grows I don't

think it's instant. Oh do you? Yeah I don't. Talk to me more about that that's interesting. I just yeah I don't ever remember being physically attracted to any of my romantic long-term partners straight away. Yeah. It's something that grows when you, because I'm more of a personality person and if you have a kind heart and you stimulate me intellectually and challenge me, then I'm gonna become attracted to that. Yeah. Obviously I've lusted over people and I've walked into a room and gone, oh my

God, they're really attractive, but that's never lasted more than the 60 seconds it takes for them to open their mouth. Absolutely, exactly. So for you, it's about the connection. This is all about where am I getting your personality and the intellectual stimulation for you? You know, how are you stimulating me as a personality? Yeah, so I've never, yeah, once I've physically lusted over someone, it doesn't last very long. Absolutely right. I love that answer Sharon. Absolutely love that. Thank you so much for being with us today.

Thank you for coming down from Oxford and spending time with us in the studio in London. You have been on an incredible journey on your life already. You're only 29 years old. And I wish you the very best with your campaigning. And I really do hope that you go into politics and you do become a Labour MP. I think

the party would absolutely benefit from you being there. With that in mind, what one piece of advice would you like to give to people who are listening today? I think that my piece of advice would be to always trust your gut instinct. I think that you you know, there'd be times when you look back and you regret something you did, but at that moment in time, all of your life experience up into that moment in time told you to take that path. And I think when you follow your gut instinct, you can't go wrong. And I followed mine and ended up here. So I can't be too far wrong. I know there'll be some of you listening who are affected by the

issues Sharon and I have been talking about today and I wanted to let you all know that if you do need help the charity Refuge support thousands of survivors every day and runs the National Domestic Abuse Helpline which is available 24 hours a day seven days a week. The number is 0808 2247. You can also visit their website nationaldahelpline.org.uk to use live chat or request a safe time to be contacted. You can find all of this information in the podcast Show Notes 2. You're not alone and there is help out there for you. That's it for today, but I'll be back next week with a brand new episode of It Can't Just Be Me. But in the meantime, I also want to hear from you because this Friday

you can hear the next episode of It's Not Just You. In these Friday episodes I'll be joined by different experts each week and we'll be answering your dilemmas. So please, if there's something you want to talk about, whether it's big or small, funny or serious, get in touch with us. You can DM me or email us hello at itcan'tjustbeme.co.uk. And if you want to see more of the show, remember, you can find us on Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook. Just search, Frick Can't Just Be Me, because whatever you're dealing with, I promise you, it really isn't just you.

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