It Can't Just Be Me - Embracing Your Authentic Self - with Leigh Francis

Episode Date: September 18, 2024

In this episode of It Can’t Just Be Me, Anna Richardson has an open conversation with TV and Radio star Leigh Francis. They delve into the reality beyond the iconic personas Leigh has crafted for the screen. He shares his experiences navigating a changing television and comedy landscape, his sadness at losing his Dad and his friend Caroline Flack and his support network behind closed doors. In this candid chat Leigh explains why he decided to write his book Leigh, Myself and I and opens up on his journey to self acceptance.If you are struggling you can find some useful links for help and advice here: https://audioalways.lnk.to/ItcantjustbemeIGIn future episodes, Anna will be answering YOUR dilemmas! If you have an 'It Can't Just Be Me' you would like discussed then get in touch with Anna by emailing [e-mail] Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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hello. And if you're joining me for the very first time, it's great to have you here. This is the podcast that helps you realise you're not the only one. It's a safe space where nothing is off limits as we try to help you understand that whatever you might be going through, it's really not just you. really not just you. So each week I'm joined by a different celebrity guest who will talk through the challenges and hurdles they faced in their own lives in order to help you with yours. I want to know about it all, the weird, the wonderful, the crazy, because these conversations are nothing if not open and honest. So let's get started. and honest. So, let's get started. Now, today's guest is a man that you'll all know very, very well. Or do you? He's spent years in the comedy spotlight playing a number of different characters and has gained a huge fan base for them. But I'm not chatting to the bear

from Bo Selector, or Avid Merian, or even Keith Lemon. I'm talking to a man who was born and brought up in Leeds with his mum, dad and big sister. A man who moved to London with his teenage love, Jill, who he married, had two little girls with and still embraces being a big kid at heart. He's a Spider-Man fan, a Star Wars fan, a Back to the Future fan,

a man who's navigated life as a number of different personas, but today he is himself. He is, of course, Lee Francis. Hello, love. Who? Who? It's so funny, isn't it? Because we were talking downstairs.

We bumped into each other downstairs in reception. And we've not seen each other for a couple of years. Last time I saw you was in the street. It was, wasn't it? And I'd not seen you for ages then. And I might have done two seconds to just go. Because you see people in the street don't you and you go I don't know they are you go oh that was so and so because people come up to

you in the street and say hello and whatever and I've talked with them for ages and then Jill will go do you know that person is no no well you were on the phone when we bumped into each other street but downstairs genuine on our way into the podcast we bumped into each other down reception oh my god hello nice to be here you was hello lovely to meet you as well um but you were saying even downstairs you're like god i've just come from something where someone's just called me keith i'm not keith i get it's every every single day me it's good can i have a photograph keith yeah then i put my arm around i go my name's lee but no one knows i did um do you know pub in park. Yeah. I was plugging my book there and they said,

will you welcome people into the festival? Will you open the festival? I said, whilst I'm here, just use me. Do whatever you want with me. And they went, ladies and gentlemen, Lee Francis. Nothing. And then I went, Keith Lemon. And they went, yeah.

Because obviously they know me first, but they don't know that my name's Lee. They don't know that Keith was a character I'm going to come back to you about all of that about your characters about who you really are

and you know I've had a real privilege to work with you on Fantastical Factory thank you which was what maybe four or five four years ago

was it that long ago maybe it was about four years ago it goes quick yeah it does doesn't it well I didn't know you at all yeah well exactly and I'd never worked with you before.

So we were kind of like thrown together. But I was, and that was a bonkers series. And what a shame because there was only one series for Channel 4. But when we were kind of like thrown together and we didn't know each other at all, even though obviously I knew your characters and your work, but just how phenomenally creative you are and talented you are. And I really do mean this, that you are one of the very few

maverick creative people I've ever met in my life. I think there's quite a few in telly. Not like you though, Lee. Genuinely, the fact that you can paint, you can draw, you can make clothes, you create figurines, you're a comedy genius, you can write. There's so many things that you can turn your hand to. Not everybody can do that. I think people don't try to, that's why,

because they go, I can't do it. Loads of things that I've learnt to do or whatever, it's just go, I'm going to have a go at that and see if it works and if it doesn't, you go do another thing. That's a total brain thing because this morning you were showing me pictures of i'm just making this jacket out of a star wars sleeping bag and i'm like i said to you who who's taught you to do this you know i want no one i just i can just do it no that is that's quite a genius thing to be able to do oh no you know what

what the components of a jacket it's got sleeves of a jacket it's got sleeves there's a body yeah but mine would end up looking out and try and sew it together and go oh yeah this feels wrong what have i done wrong and then i'll throw my sister up who was a fashion designer i think in the peak of her career she worked for burberry and i can remember being super proud of her and like oh my gosh my my sister works for Burberry and she would get sample fabrics and stuff and make me things so there you go right you've then you've got it in the blood and somebody's also shown you but it's the fact that you kind of know how to say how how do I do this or what am I doing wrong here but yeah just just trial and error I guess with everything I've never done

sculpting before but in lockdown I started sculpting. I use a thing called Super Sculpey, which dries like hard plastic, kind of. And, yeah, started making things. Oh, Wendy, who taught you how to sculpt? Just had a go. It's just drawing in 3D. It's just creating shadows. Well, look, before we carry on talking,

I want to know what your it-can't-just-be-me dilemma is. I've got many dilemmas. I guess the biggest dilemma I've had is being me. That is the biggest dilemma. Should I become me? You know, because there's so much I read things about me saying, you're shy in real life, aren't you? And all this lot.

No, I'm not shy, but I'm just not. I don't walk around as a game show host either. So hang on. So you're saying my, it can't just be me dilemma is, it can't just be me that's me. So actually, that's me.

So actually you are quite literally, it is just you. It is just me that's me, isn't it? But deciding whether to be me was the thing. A couple of people that I know, a friend of mine said, Keith Lemon needs to go on the holiday now and i was like yeah and then when celebrity juice finished not that i was tied to celebrity juice i loved it but once it finished thought all right now it can be me you know and then people go i'm so glad it's you'll

be being you now and then you're like oh did you not like keith lemon then i've been doing virgin for a year now so it's been a journey i hate saying it's been a journey but it's been a journey of discovering who i am who's my voice that makes sense to me because i mean you've just released your autobiography yeah so lee myself that was a dilemma as well what to actually talk about yourself to talk about myself because it's quite self-indulgent in it I guess but then also I feel like it's a privilege to be in a position where someone wants you to write a memoir well that that's true so I can understand the dilemma of what a privilege to be able to write your life story and what do you say

interested do you tell people everything what do you Exactly. So how much do you reveal about yourself? But that's what I think is interesting about you, Lee. Right. So I think it's amazing. A, the book, Lee, myself and I, what a genius title. But what I've always thought about you from working with you on Factory, and I can remember saying to you, do you know what? Why don't you just be you?

I remember saying that to you at the time and you going, I'm not ready to be. I wasn't. I'm not ready to be. So it's interesting to me that now what, fast forward four years later, and you're ready to expose yourself and be a bit vulnerable. But what's it like then? How difficult has it been to be Lee Francis and to expose yourself?

It was quite nerve wracking at the beginning. But then I realised there's no pressure to be funny, there's more pressure to be funny because I guess that is my job, there's more pressure to be funny when you're playing a character, like if I came on here as Keith Lemon, I have to be funny because I'm playing a character

but as me I don't feel any pressure to be funny at all so it's not that I suddenly go oh I've got to be totally straight then, because you know I dick about constantly. Yeah, and that's why we love you, is because as you, as Lee, you dick about, right? Which is great.

But I read a quote where you said, you know, I'm not a comedian, I don't know what I am. Yeah, I don't know what I am. I'm not a comedian, because I think comedians do stand-up, don't they? And then they end up on TV, and then they go, oh, my love's touring, so I will go back to touring-up, don't they? And then they end up on TV, and then they go, oh, my love's touring, so I will go back to touring.

And I didn't do that. I got a video camera when I was 16 and made loads of videos. My mates all grew up, and I didn't. And then one of them, it might have been Jill, actually, that said, you should send all your videos to TV. One of my mates says, what do you make these videos still for? And I says, because I make a silly video. I come round to your house, we watch it, hopefully laugh,

and then we all go out, and that's what we do, don't we? And then, so then it was this sort of scramble to, all right, I will send it to TV, so I would write down all the production companies at the end board of a TV show, try and find the address, because there's no internet then, obviously. And then send videos to people until someone got me in for an audition, which I came last in the audition, but the producer liked me.

I said, oh, we're going to be setting up a channel in a couple of weeks called Paramount Channel. We might offer you a job. Thought I'd bet the door. I'm going to wind you back to the man behind the characters, right? Because you've talked about being hidden under a mask, in inverted commas, with your characters. So why was it easier to do that?

I know you said that when you were growing up, you and your mates would just make videos and you created characters, but why has it been easier for you to hide behind that mask rather than just being you? Well, it wasn't my idea. I was presenting a show, which my then agent said,

I saw you on that programme you shit I like it when you do your characters though because I used to review computer games in character which to this day

one of my mates takes the piss out of me all the time did it have good playability because I used to say playability and he always winds me up about it

but yeah I do different characters playing computer games and stuff and he said I like it when you do that I said I'm in my 20s when he's saying this so i was like all right so any advice he gave me i'll listen to so hang on so this was the legendary agent john knoll yeah it was yeah yeah so i've got so many

stories about john knoll so john said your shit is you yeah he was always honest you know i i have said it in the book he was almost like a father figure yeah Yeah. I didn't have my dad. He went around. And I spent a lot of time with John. We'd go out drinking and stuff and looked up to him. I thought he was amazing. And, yeah, I do sort of praise him for creating me on telly, really. Because, yeah, it was his idea to do the characters. He says, I want you to come into the office

and do one of your characters that you can stay in character and I'll try and throw you out of character. And I went, all of them i can stay in character went okay come in on monday so i didn't have the balls back then to leave the house in character i got changed in a phone box outside his office like a shit superman and and went into the office in character i think all the other agents looking at me like lunatic but i didn't care because it was just like i'm just getting to where i am now it was as i is and was like a magical adventure yeah i always thought if it all goes wrong go home so i turn up at john's every day for a week and different characters and then he said like this one this one and this one then he arranged meetings with commissioners but

didn't tell him that i was coming and i'd get i. And I'd be waiting in his car, and he'd give me a text saying, now, and then I'd come to Zillyfish, Aldo Zilly's restaurant in Soho, and knock on the window, and he would beckon me to come in. And then he'd go, this is one of my new clients. And you were going in as what, like Avid Merian? I was Avid Merian, Barry Gibson, who is the human version of the bear, who is the actor who plays the bear and doesn't like the idea that he plays a bear. And I played Barry Gibson's mum.

And one night there was a commissioner called Stuart Murphy. Yeah. I did three different characters in one night, and Stuart thought he was meeting three different people. Yeah, but didn't Stuart think that you were mentally ill? He thought... Didn't he say to John afterwards, you're looking after... Taking advantage of him.

You're looking after really vulnerable people. Yeah, he did. And then John said, well, I'm going to let you know now, it's one person. And he said he can have his own show. OK, let's talk a little bit about that, because I don't think that people actually realise that you come from a graphic design background and that you're working for the yorkshire evening post yeah you're making your own video covers for the films that

you're making as well and then you're sending these films off to various production companies and then you get you get called in by paramount i got an interview and a live audition on channel four which i came last but the producers were setting up the Paramount channel. And so I got the call and they said, we want to employ you as an ideas person. And what, as in development? I didn't know what development was. I didn't know anything.

Yeah. But I was like, yes. And they said, how much are you on at the moment? I was on 10 a year. I thought I was doing all right. I said, I get 11. They says, I will offer you 12. I went, 10 a year. I thought we were doing all right. I said, I get 11. They says, I will offer you 12. I went, um, okay.

And I put the phone down. I'm rich! 12 a year! I'm rich! I said, I'm moving to London. And then my boss said, what are you doing? I said, I'm moving to London. I'm going to have a job in TV.

And he says, you can't even talk English. You can't even speak English. I said, yeah, I can't. And I says, well, that will be the making of me speaking incorrectly. And it has been. Yeah, yeah. And then so moved down to London. I lived in a bed and breakfast.

Whereabouts? In Victoria. Got off the National Express coach in Victoria. On the coach. And then just walked to the first bed and breakfast did you and then

Keith Lemons the real Keith Lemon my mate from Leeds that's right who Keith Lemons based on Keith Lemon well it's not based on him it's just taking his name

I just said I'll give you a shout out on telly I'll give a character your name his sister put me up in her flat I was on her floor for two weeks and she knew the guy

who was the manager of the complex of flats. And then, yeah, I got a flat and I had a sleeping bag and a lamp. And then I phoned Jill and said, I've got us a flat. You can come down now.

So she came down and the magical adventure began. And I always thought if it goes wrong, we'll just go home, you know. But in a way, I guess just listening to your story, it's a combination of absolute graft and determination

and I am just going to make this happen because I'm writing a script and I'm doing a video every day. But it was fun. Exactly. So it's passion and determination, but also a lot of luck there. Yeah. I mean, you know, that's real luck. I think that's with everything, isn't it?

Luck, being in the right place at the right time. Yeah. A little bit of, you have to have a little bit of skill. You don't have to be the best, but I think passion drives everything. I always say that to my kids when they're doing, choosing the GCSEs or doing any exams at school. And I go, it doesn't matter what qualifications you get

because passion overrides everything. Absolutely. And makes things happen without a doubt. I mean, what if you get loads of qualifications butides everything. And makes things happen. Yeah. Without a doubt. It does. I mean, what if you get loads of qualifications but you don't know what to do?

Which I think a lot of people are in that situation, aren't they? I think so. But I always knew, I always know what I want to do. Yeah. You know, when I was at school, you go to the careers teacher

and they said, so what are you going to do when you leave school? I said, I'm going to go to art college simply because my sister went to art college and I thought, that'd be cool. Yeah. And I could do art. And they said, what if you going to do when you leave school? I'm going to go to art college simply because my sister went to art college and I thought that would be cool and I could do art and they said what if you don't get in

and me 16 I wouldn't say anything like this now but I went if I don't get in nobody will but it's true because I'm going back to what I said earlier on you are one of the most extraordinarily talented people that I've met and certainly in terms of art but you are lit and you know that you are.

And it's good to know that you are. You know what, I like to go to bed on an evening, obviously. And just go, what have I done today? And even if it is I've just made something, drawn a picture or done this today. Yeah. Just what was today for? Or did this?

I was supposed to make a jacket all day and go wrong many times. And it doesn't fit me right. But that's what I'm supposed to do today could you strike me as somebody that is relentlessly positive yeah and that you're able to kind of like brush things off and go okay well that's happened well I'm going to move on oh no it hurts it hurts you don't want to spread any um harm or negativity to anyone so if the response is not what you wanted it to be, it's horrible. But I've got a lovely wife and two kids and amazing friends.

So that's the easiest way to escape any negativity. Be around your friends, be around your loved ones, I think. Well, that is very true. I mean, actually, I was just going to say, I know that family is incredibly important to you. I mean, you've been with Jill since she was 16, you were 19. I've met Jill and I've seen you two together. and, you know, you are so very much in love. The love that is there, because you've been together how long now?

What, 30 years? 32 years. 32 years. And the love for your mum, Pat, as well, is just so obvious. And her love for you. So it's really clear to me that your friends and your family are very very important the people that really really know you and you said recently

that when you were in Leeds on your tour I think it was at the Grand and you said I looked out in the audience and all my friends and family were there and it was a wonderful feeling I was emotional I am now are you?

even just talking about it but why? I mean I'm interested in that why is that important? Because they all know me, so they know everything about me. And then you go, can you believe what happened?

And one of my mates who went into the Navy, he came as well. And he went, Lee, you did it. You did it. He went, you're fucking famous. And I went... But no one's ever said that to me.

And I've had a similar conversation with Paddy once we were in Saw House me and Paddy and Paddy went look at us in Saw House two lads off a council estate eating burgers that cost ten quid that's like Paddy isn't it and again I've never had that conversation

with another telly person and I'm good friends with Emma Bunton and she's a similar vein as well because she's from a working class background. So we do know what things are worth and stuff. So you can't believe what happened to you. You can't believe it. But also just wonder whether it's the opposite,

that feeling of being able to look out and you've got Jill by your side, you've got your mum by your side, you're looking at all your mates in the audience, all those people that really know you. And in a way it's the opposite of John saying to you, I don't like you as you, you're shit, I like your characters.

And actually, you're not shit, Lee is amazing. Do you feel like I'm in therapy? I know, well, people often say, listen, when you have a conversation with me, it's a fucking deep dive. Who do you talk to that gives you all the positive vibes? Well, that's a really good point.

Fuck, I need to think about that. But genuinely, I do mean it because you as you is an extraordinary personality and it's as strong, if not stronger, than the characters that you create. And it's lovely to get that validation, Lee. Yeah. And I just wonder whether you're getting it now, now that you've got the book out yeah i don't know what people's perception

will be of me when they read it you know the nice thing being me is that i can be straight and then i can mess about and pull a character out here and there when i want to right where before i couldn't because i just thought it was easier selling a character by being them yeah just just be that then you're not explaining who they are and um or people are not thinking oh it's easy because his voice is very similar to the voices uh that's like when you're myrtle amanda holden's grandma which is three hours of makeup first but but does it does it hurt a little bit when people still say to you oh you're keith and you're like no my name's Lee I'm Lee it doesn't hurt I think I start getting embarrassed for them that they think I'm Keith Lemon and don't

really understand I don't know that it was a fictional character even though on the movie that I did it said starring me and even though I've also been avid Marion although Boss Lexus so long ago some people don't even know it existed. 22 years ago. Some people don't even know it existed. Do any of those characters, have they ever, maybe in the early years, have they ever bled into your family life?

No. Never? So at home, I'm Lee. Yeah. So there was a documentary called Jim and Andy with Jim Carrey. It was about the film Man on the Moon. Oh, yeah. When he played Andy Kaufman. One of my mates, who actually was the producer of Bo Selekt, he texted me and said, have you seen this? I went, yeah.

He said, it reminds me of you. I said, I'm very flattered that you're comparing me to Jim Carrey. I said, but the difference between me and Jim Carrey, because Jim Carrey was talking about living Andy Kaufman and becoming him for the whole period of filming that film. So the difference is when I go home and shut the door, that's it. I'm off. I don't walk around being Avid Merrin or Keith Lemon or whatever at home.

You see, it's always really interested me that, and I love the fact that when you're at home, you're Lee, and you're with the girls, Pat's on the phone all the time. You are you. Because years ago, I went out with a very well-known comedian who also did a lot of characters and when I was with that person privately they just had no idea who they were I know who I definitely always known who I was in those environments it was on TV where I didn't know who I was. Because, first of all, I guess, I always think people that start out as TV adopt the persona of a presenter.

Because you always think good presenters are themselves, aren't they? Yeah, and do you know what they are? Because I've always said, the art of being a good presenter is the art of being yourself. Yeah, but people don't know that. I think when they're first starting, they go, first of all, a presenter talks in this manner, where they'll do a melodic tone.

Don't they? So they'll go into that and just go, just talk normal. Yeah, be you. And I would have done that when I started as well, because you've just gone, oh, presenter, right? I'll watch some presenters and take essence of that presenter. So to a certain extent playing a character as that was a presenter is easier but that's what i did i guess and then i'd do something that was a bit

further than that and then we go now now it's a character it's an obvious character he's got a wig on or whatever else yeah um but yeah i guess a lot and a lot of people have versions of themselves on tv don't they and then a different version of them off. The really good ones are the same people on TV as they are off TV, I think. Yeah, absolutely. Again, it's the authenticity, I think. It's the art of being you, really. Yeah, that's what people connect with, don't they?

Which is so nice to see you as you, and now you're on Virgin Radio as well. Yeah, even on Virgin Radio, I just thought, I don't, because I'm older, so I know not to pretend to do a pretend persona as a presenter on radio. I'd really go anti-presenter,

I think, on radio and go just bleh as me. I don't want to be good. My agent said, have you listened to yourself? Have you ever recorded yourself and listened to yourself? I went, no.

Why would I do that? I said, that's like masturbating in front of a mirror. no why would I do that I said that's like masturbating in front of a mirror so why would I do that I said I don't want to be good I just want to be me

yeah but now and again I will joke and do a DJ voice as a joke you'll listen to Virgin Radio

with me Lee Francis pronounced Francis you know I'll joke like that but normally I go, oh, sorry, I just pressed wrong button. One of the loveliest things that I've seen you do is,

as you, is winning Portrait Artist of the Year. Oh yeah, we're excited. And also winning Celebrity Bake Off. That was exciting. That was too exciting because I shouldn't have been that excited. But you'd gone over.

You'd gone over excited. This is really hard. Have you done it? I've been asked to do it for Stand Up To Cancer. I'm a shit. I can't cook. I've never done it in my life. Yeah, but you created like a massive foot on like soil

with the toenail and everything. Yeah, because your biggest failure, I knocked my toenail off snowboarding. Have you still got a weird sausage toe then? Yeah, because it grew back like a piece of wood, which I thought was disgusting. So I pulled it off. And it grew back like wood again.

I think I destroyed my matrix or something. And then I had it pulled off by the doctor. So now I have a sausage toe. So you've got no toenail? Yeah. And that's my biggest failure.

So I made my foot and it was so stressful. I'm glad that Danny Dyer was there he was keeping me happy for the two days you're there can you imagine Danny Dyer baking all you can hear is fuck you know

bullets fuck you know and he's a lovely person and so I thought I'll build my foot but it's so stressful my back was aching and I heard Sarah Cox

talking about what did she call it bake cake bake cake and you do you get bake cake because the stress you know because you're against the timer and all this like could you cook before i don't cook never baked rob gildert said did you practice so no i didn't think that was the name of the game was it aren't we supposed to just know just supposed to be thrown into it and um so as soon as i got a sponge out of the oven i started calming down for right okay that's definitely cake that's come out of the oven that's cake i can sculpt that into a foot and then when you start

adding the fondant where you can shape it all i said to the producer i went because they knew i was stressed out to the point where i'm thinking I'm going to walk what have you learnt so far not to listen to me agent and I shouldn't have done this and so when it came to the sculpting bit I said to him again like I did

when I was 16 showing off I went right welcome to my world exactly I said have you got an airbrush I'd love to try

and airbrush it and he went yeah and I've never done an airbrush on a cake before as well that was fun to do. It was absolutely incredible.

But I think you got a little bit more emotional and you were you on Portrait Artist of the Year. Yeah, I was. Okay, I'm going to just roll back a little bit. You've had some really difficult moments as a family. So I want to talk again to you as Lee. Just tell us a little bit about Jill's health and the birth of Dolly because that was really hard.

Well, she's got Crohn's. She's got Crohn's. Obviously, we didn't know what Crohn's was. I don't think many people are aware of Crohn's and how serious it is. Is it autoimmune, Crohn's? It's your bowels. People think you just want to go to the toilet a lot. But when you have an operation and they take half your bowel out as well

and you haven't got much left, that's when it gets a bit panicky. And that was Jill's experience, wasn't it? Well, normally when you're pregnant, you're in good shape, aren't you? You've got lovely hair and everything and you're sort of healthy, aren't you? Because your baby, as much as it's taken, it's given you loads of good things as well. But Jill's Crohn's had a flare of good things as well but jill's crones had a flare-up when when she was pregnant with dolly and she was thinner and pregnant than she was normal really because she lost so much skeletal face and stuff she's so ill and then she got

she obsessed in her back because of the body just sort of giving up on her and um they actually took me into a room when she's in the hospital and said um we might lose one of them what do you want to do i said you've got to do everything i didn't know dolly then obviously i didn't know her i don't know what i would imagine if you do know who your daughter is what what do you do because i told jill i said i had a dream that we were all drowning and i jumped in for the kids and left you because I couldn't carry anybody else when you left me. I said, isn't that weird? Isn't that weird?

But yeah, it was horrible. It was like being in a TV show. So it's that choice of... You can't hear anything. And suddenly everyone talks exactly like Charlie Brown's teacher. And that's all I heard the doctor talking like. Have you got any questions? I heard him say, have you got any questions?

I went, no. And then we were at St Thomas' on the South Bank. And I ran from there to ITV. Did a pilot. And I was so immersed in character that it made me forget. And I used to do it all the time in character. But that is detachment, isn't it? That is somebody that's just able to detach from the trauma.

But I couldn't always do it. And I don't know how to do it. And it sounds really up its arse, because I'm not an actor, even though I always think that that is what I'm doing, acting. But many times, as Avid Merian and as Keith Lemon, it's like a blackout. You can't remember what you've said. It's just disappearing.

Did that happen after your dad passed away? The trauma of your dad going? Oh, what, blacking out? Well, just detaching as a kid. I guess so, yeah. I mean, when my dad died, I was 21. I feel lucky that I was old enough to, I guess, not desperately need fathering off my dad.

I didn't need a parent as such. But you do always think you've missed someone out telling someone some good news or something you go well so I'm not told told I can't tell my dad oh I can't he's on holiday is that how you view it it's like my dad's on holiday yeah I think I think because I live in London it's easier yeah you know and I used to think that with um Caroline as well So yeah, talk to me about Caroline. Do you miss her? Yeah. Yeah.

Do you know what? The whole Caroline thing was just so shocking. Well, I never thought that about her, that she would do such a thing. And someone said to me, did you know she was going through that torment and hardship when it was all going on? I went, no, I didn't. Did you not? No, I didn't. So you had no idea she was going through that torment and hardship when it was all going on. I went, no, I didn't. Did you not?

No, I didn't. So you had no idea she was that unhappy? You know, because we take people for granted, don't we? We have arguments with people. And then you see, the thing with Caroline, I would argue with her now and again. And then we'd meet up and I'd be like, I don't know what she's going to say.

And she'd not say anything about the argument and just back to normal. She'd just get out of her and then she's back to normal and um i know that actually the last time i saw was the october um before it happened and she was so excited i've got a new boyfriend always excited she's got a new boyfriend you're gonna love him you're gonna love him and i always hoped i would love him but we didn't cross paths as much um in the more in the later years because but we were friends in the beginning totally because she again she used to do stuff with me on camera

and i think buzz selector was the first thing she ever did yeah yeah and she was michael jackson's girlfriend bubbles and but yeah you miss hearing her laugh when you go into a party and you go oh i'm gonna have a good time caroline's here so I'll just stand with her. She was joyful. Absolutely joyful. So that's why you'd never see that coming, what happened. But how much do you, out of interest? I don't think people have learnt from it. Press wise.

The public and the press. And when I say the public, I don't mean the public. I mean social media. Especially Twitter or X is the worst. Attack, attack attack attack attack and my mum always says if ain't anything nice to say don't say anything at all so why get in touch with someone and say horrible things to him just don't get in touch with him yeah a guy this morning asked for a photo for his daughter and i said oh yeah the photo for him and he went i don't like you i don't find you funny at did a photo for him. And he went, I don't like you.

I don't find you funny at all. God knows why she likes you. And I went, I don't like your gilet. Don't say anything. And then that just popped out. I don't like your gilet. And then when I walked away, I said, just be nice when you meet people.

I was going to say, that must hurt you. When people say stuff like, because you're such a kind man. But you get used to it, don't you? You do get used to it um my nephew is um getting into musical theater and yeah i hope that he's strong i was talking about the director that did um um keith lemon film um that was his first film and my first film and um i said when this film comes out we're gonna get a lot of shit you know and everyone's gonna say it's rubbish. And he went, why?

I said, because you're a first time director and I'm from television and our film's stupid as fuck. And he did tell me a few years ago, he said, oh, you know, when it got slagged off, it really hurt. I said, I told you. I said, I was all right because I'd been told shit many a time. But I'm still here polishing my BAFTAs, gloating again. So with you and these really difficult things that have happened to you within the family and also with friends like with Caroline, what are your strengths then, Lee,

that actually help you to get through the difficult moments? Being blasé about things, I guess. I get into trouble for saying I don't care because I think my mum thinks I don't care about people. But you've just got to, you know, water off a duck's back and all that and go, I don't care, it'll be all right. I'll just forget.

Or I'll throw myself into making something or creating something. So you distract yourself or you go, I don't care about it because it's not important because I know it's going to be okay. You know, most of the time, it's not just you, is it? This shit happens to everyone. Yeah. So you've got to think about that as well and my dad always said

there's always somebody worse off than you and and so that rings in my head and he also said um only focus on you don't think about other people with work never mind about anyone else you do your job and i've always done that always rung in my head because um i don't like the idea of being competitive which i'm not at at all and yeah i just focus on what i'm doing i know some people that go oh that person got that gig i should have got that gig or they're busier than i am i'm just happy for him i don't it's not to do with me what's going on with them is it it's what i'm doing and when're not busy, it's busy for a reason. I'm getting really spiritual at the minute.

Are you? Only because of Jill, because she's all about manifesting things. And trying to convince me of it and stuff. Well, hold on, hold on, because Jill and I, if you remember when we worked on Factor, I got my tarot cards out. Yeah, you did. And we had a little reading. Yeah. Jill and I had a little reading. And I'm very,

very spiritual. I love all of that shit. I like it, but I do mock it sometimes as well. Well, it should be mocked. It should be mocked. But are you getting into the whole manifestation thing? Well, I think I said to Jill that I always have been like that. I do reverse psychology. I go, oh, it won't happen in my head.

It will. Even to the point of, when you're a kid, I used to be like this. If I can get past that bus stop before the bus comes, I'll find a pound or whatever. And running, knowing the bus is here, if I get past it, I'll find a pound. Stuff like that. You know, if I do this, this will happen.

But often, I aren't going to win. I might win. I might just. Which is bizarre when you do. When we won at the BAFTAs Fern came down, she just presented an award and then she went, have you got a speech prepared?

I went, no. She went, I get one prepared. I went, I aren't going to win. You know, against Romesh, Stephen Fry, Graham Norton. I said, I aren't going to win. I'm not like them. And for some reason I just went like that under the chair. And there was a sticker and it was my name under it. I said, Jill, have you got a sticker of your name Dwi ddim yn eu bodd â nhw. Ac am ryw fath, mi wnes i fynd i lawr y cerdd. Ac roedd yna sdiccer. A oedd fy enw i o dan y cerdd.

Roeddwn i'n meddwl, Jill, oes gennych chi sdiccer eich enw o dan hynny? Ac wedyn, fel... O, o, o. Ac nid oes gen i'r cyrraedd oherwydd, ie, roeddwn i'n ymuno â'r Baftas. Rwy'n teimlo fy mod i bob amser yn bod yno. Rwy'n meddwl fy mod i wedi bod yno am tri gwaith. Rwy'n meddwl bod rhywun yn mynd i fynd i fyny i chi a dweud, rydych chi'n ymuno â'r seit anghywir.

Ac wedyn rydych chi'n mynd i And then you go, oh, where's my seat? Outside. You always feel like you shouldn't be there. And so when I won, I did a posh voice. Because no one knew who I was then as well. When they said Lee Francis, everyone must have gone, who? But lovely Ant and Dec were sat outside of me there as well. They were hugging and that was nice.

Because obviously they win everything. If you ever have the chance to some freakish way beat Ant and Dec in an award you have guilt you have guilt I don't know if it was a trick award I'm doing it again, I blow my own trumpet I won some award, like a trick award you know those daytime ones

they're always a lot of fun and I can remember beating Ant and Dec and feeling guilty because they win everything and I said I'm sorry, I'm so sorry and I went have you ever lost anything before And I can remember beating Ant and Dec and feeling guilty because they win everything. And I said, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. And I went, have you ever lost anything before?

They went, yeah. I went, when? Would you imagine them to? But Lee, I mean, you've just sort of beautifully encapsulated really who you are, which is just that sense of I just can't believe that I've made it this far and I never should have made it this far. I don't deserve it. And you do. I don't know if I think I don't deserve it. And you do. I don't know if I think,

I don't deserve it. It's just a shock, isn't it? You go, wow. It's helped me. Wow. Yeah. No, I don't even, I don't even hate myself

for like, say, I'm not good enough. You just, you can't believe it, can you? Can't believe it. And I do say to my kids though, I go,

if I want to be a spaceman, I'll be one. Because I'll just try my hardest to become a spaceman. Obviously I won't now because I'm 51. So what does the second half of your life look like now you're 51 what do you want to do I don't know what will be will be and that's a little thing that's what like got to 50 and um not that you're old or anything you just go oh now things can change yeah and you feel do

feel like I know it's hardly likely we're going to live till we're 100 but you just think that's that half but even my daughter said the same thing to me she said I think this book is the next chapter for you and you're going to go a different way

did she? which daughter? yeah she's 15 that's really insightful isn't it are you in my mind I know wow but you know

there's loads of things I couldn't have done in character you know and you know I probably get asked to go on things more

now that I'm me and I never used to get asked to go on anything but now they know oh we're starting to know that you do you as you they go oh you won't come in and wreck everything because in character won't come in and wreck everything

because in character you might come in and wreck everything because that's your job to cause havoc and do the best you can to hopefully make people laugh but when you're just yourself

well speaking for me you know because I'm not a comedian like a lot of the comedians I don't care I'm kind of like blase to making people laugh okay

well let's take a little bit of a break but do not go anywhere, Lee, because in a moment I'm going to ask you to pick a question from my little box of truth. And the only rule is that you must answer honestly. Okay. Welcome back to It Can't Just Be Me.

And I'm here with the comedy legend and just actually all-round lovely guy, Lee Francis. And it's time for one of my favourite bits of the show. The It Can't Just Be Me box of truth of truth now i am genuinely convinced that we're losing the art of conversation people just don't talk to each other anymore so they're always on they don't pick up the phone they don't sit down have a conversation and we just don't know really how to talk to each other so in front of us we've got a pack of cards and there's a load of personal questions in there all you need to do is just pick a pack of cards and there's a load of personal questions in there. All you need to do is just pick one at random and whatever's on there, read it out.

Okay. Tell us a secret you've been longing to get off your chest. Oh, I've written them all in my book. Anything you feel guilty about and you're like, do you know what, I do feel a bit shit about this? I feel guilty because I heard that Ricky Wilson wasn't happy that I didn't thank him for getting me a job at Virgin in my book. So when I see him tomorrow, I've got him some French fancies

and a thank you card because I know he likes French fancies. And I'll say I'm terribly sorry because I've got no excuse. I just forgot. Because when you're writing it, you're going back in your mind at what happened. So your time frame's all over the place with people that mean a lot to me, and it does mean a lot to me in present time, but it might not have meant a lot to me many years ago.

So you're writing all your thank yous, and you are going, who's the first person I thank? Obviously, my mum and dad, because they made me. And then you go, and my mates. And Ricky is part of my circle of mates. And I don't know why I haven't put Andy Goldstein in. I probably haven't thanked you for being lovely on Fantastical Factory. But I've mentioned you because I've mentioned everything that I've done.

Almost everything. Jill said to me, she says, you didn't mention that you ran with the Olympic torch and that's a big thing. Hold on a minute, you leave it to the end of the podcast to say you ran with the Olympic torch? Yeah, but I forgot. In 2012?

No, yeah, 2012, yeah, yeah, I did, yeah. Hang on, I don't remember that at all. I guess I'm more relevant in 2012, so you get asked to do the oddest things. So I did yeah how did hang on I don't remember that at all I guess I'm more relevant in 2012 so you get asked to do the oddest things so I did do that you fucking hell you ran with the Olympic torch

yeah she only you know she only just put it on the wall about two weeks ago that is incredible and um I said I've forgotten

loads of things Jill I said but that'll be my next book things I forgot Lee thank you so much for coming in today. Honestly, it's always a pleasure to see you. It was such a pleasure to work with you as well. Likewise, and we need to do something else.

We do need to do more. We've got to do that tarot card, ghost-busting style show. I know, right? We did talk about that. Lee, thank you so much for coming on today. I really do appreciate it. And the book, Lee, Myself and I, brilliant title. So it's out now.

It's out now, yes. Obviously, we've had so many funny characters from you. We've had so many funny quotes, particularly from Keith Lemon. But what one piece of advice would you give to listeners as you? Oh, I'll just take it straight from Caroline Flack and be kind. That's it for today, but I'll be back next week with a brand new episode of It Can't Just Be Me. But in the meantime, I also want to hear from you

because very soon we'll be releasing extra episodes every week where I'll be joined by experts and answering your dilemmas. So please, if there's something you want to talk about, whether it's big or small, funny or serious, get in touch with us. You can email us or send a voice note to hello at itcan'tjustbeme.co.uk. And if you want to see more of the show, remember, you can find us on Instagram, TikTok and Facebook. Just search for It Can't Just Be Me, because whatever you're dealing with, it really isn't just you.