It Can't Just Be Me - Embracing your upbringing with Jassa Ahluwalia

Episode Date: November 27, 2024

In this episode of It Can’t Just Be Me, Anna sits down with actor, filmmaker and author Jassa Ahluwalia. Born to an English mother and an Indian father, he grew up the 'white' boy that was fluent in both English and Punjabi. Jassa talks to Anna about embracing his mixed heritage, why he wrote his book 'Both, Not Half' and how he navigates a world that wants to put us in boxes.If you or someone you know is struggling with any of the topics discussed in It Can’t Just Be Me, you can find useful resources and support here: https://audioalways.lnk.to/ItcantjustbemeIG.Every Friday Anna, alongside a panel of experts, will be addressing YOUR dilemmas in our second weekly episodes ‘It’s Not Just You'! If you have a dilemma or situation you'd like discussed, reach out to Anna by emailing [e-mail] or DM her on Instagram @itcantjustbemepod Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Visit Peloton at OnePeloton.ca. Hello, I'm Anna Richardson and welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. If you've listened before, hello, and if you're joining me for the very first time, it's great to have you here. This is the podcast that helps you realise you're not the only one. It's a safe space where nothing is off limits as we try to help you understand that whatever you might be going through, it's really not just you. So each week I'm joined by a different celebrity guest who will talk through the challenges and hurdles they faced in their own lives in order to help you with yours. I want to know about it all. The weird, the wonderful, the crazy,

because these conversations are nothing if not open and honest. So, let's get started. This week's guest is a multidisciplinary star and has featured in some of the most talked about shows of the last decade, including Peaky Blinders, Some Girls and the film The Whale. He's an actor, director, presenter, writer and one of the most articulate people that I've ever listened to. It is of course Jasa Alualia. Jasa, hello! Hello, I'm very well

thank you, thanks for having me. Not at all, welcome to my cocoon of love. It's a beautiful cocoon. Thank you. Before we chat any further, let's just get to it. What is your, it can't just be me dilemma? Do you have one? It can't just be me that gets infuriated by people who own dishwashers but refuse to use them. Oh. I don't know why. It's just so specific. If I go to somebody's house and they're just like, oh, no, I'll just wash it up by hand. I'm like, no, there's a dishwasher.

You've got a dishwasher. Just use the dishwasher. I love you for that because that is, it isn't just you because that is also one of my real bug bears where again, it's kind of like, the reason that that is there is to help you with the washing up. You don't need to do this by hand. But some people are quite sort of fanatical, aren't they? Maniacal. My flatmate is.

Really? Yeah. What's it about, do you think? I don't know. I think they think it's somehow more efficient. But it's not, I mean it's been shown. Yeah, exactly. Or if it's like one or two things that I can maybe, I think it comes from me, you know, having, I've sort of lived in house shares

pretty much my entire adult life. And I've lived in house shares without dishwashers. And ever since having a dishwasher, I would never ever go back. And the Jenga nightmare of the drying rack being stacked and stacked and stacked, just, yeah, I feel myself sort of getting quite passionate. Do you secretly re-wash all the stuff that your flatmate has washed because it's not

been done properly? No, I've got to say he's very, he is very thorough. So I've not had to put stuff through, but if there's stuff lying around and I'm not quite sure whether it has that been washed, because sometimes then stuff's overflowing from the drying rack. No, it's going in the dishwasher. It goes straight in. It's organized.

It's done. That to me is just clearly utterly sensible. So I'm, I'm, I'm with you. Thank you for that, Jess. I'm totally with you. I would genuinely spend five minutes like unloading dishwasher rather than washing something up by hand. But can we just discuss whether you have a specific way of stacking said dishwasher? Yes.

Because there's a right way and there's a wrong way. 100%. Yeah. So are you very organized, spend time? Yes, very organized. It's got to, you know, nothing's touching each other. Nothing infuriates me more than somebody throws stuff in the dishwasher and then it comes out and it's like... And it's still dirty. Ah yeah. Can I again, can I just ask whether cutlery facing up or down? Ah I would ordinarily start with cutlery facing up. Yes. But sometimes if then you know say spoons

are starting to nestle together I might go a you know, one way top and tail just to ensure that there's no sort of chance of stuff getting stuck together. God, our world would be perfect, wouldn't it, if we lived together? Absolutely perfect. You know what I love is there's ones that have the drawer at the top so you can stack everything like super neatly. Really neatly. Woof. Oh, gosh, this is pornography for me. It's such a thrill.

So Jasper, first of all, tell us about you. I've mentioned some of your accolades, but for anybody listening who doesn't know all about you, how would you describe yourself? I guess I would now, having been published, describe myself as an actor and author and to sort of explain my background and heritage, I would say of mixed British Indian heritage or mixed English and Punjabi heritage, depending on how specific I guess I want to be, yeah.

Well, let's get into that because your new book, Both Not Half, A Radical New Approach to Mixed Heritage Identity is out now. Congratulations. Thank you. It is part memoir. It is part social commentary. So just tell us about your childhood growing up as a British Indian boy in the UK. Just paint a little bit of a picture of what that looked like because this would have been what in the 80s? No, early 90s. I was born in 90 yeah. Oh wow my god that's so recent. So we're saying 1990 the early 90s what did life look like for you as a British Indian boy? You know what it

was so full of joy and I had no sense of my existence being in any way remarkable. I was born in Coventry and then because um, because the, the schools in Coventry wouldn't let me start, um, cause my birthday is in September, they wouldn't let me start that year and my grandfather was a teacher at the primary school, uh, at a primary school in Leicester. And when my grandparents lived, uh, my Punjabi grandparents and so sort of in Indian extended parenting tradition, I went to go and live with them during school weeks in Leicester.

And so I started school there. And so, and Leicester is also this like really mixed heritage city. Half the city shuts down for Diwali and my turban wearing Punjabi grandfather was a teacher at the school. So my sense of identity was always really just known and accepted and celebrated. And I went through pretty much my entire teens up until my early 20s with this sense of just being both. And I had no real, you know, I, you know, I had a memory of convincing somebody on

a train once when I was with my dad, my brown Punjabi dad, that I was adopted. But I just thought it was very funny that I could convince somebody that I was adopted. It didn't seem in any way like a problem. So you've got your your brown Punjabi dad. Yeah. Your white mum from where's she from? From around the Midlands. From around the Midlands? Yeah. Okay how did they meet? Just out of interest?

They met, he was doing like a CAD design course I think a masters or something in Coventry at the time and they met through mutual friends on on the course my mum was friends with somebody who was doing the same course and and met, yeah, in that way. And so for you, you're saying that as is tradition within a sort of Punjabi household, you would go and stay with your grandparents? Yeah, I think my mum had just set up a business. My dad was doing an MBA at the time at Warwick. And so, you know, there was childcare, cost of childcare, how you're doing all of that stuff. And so it just sort of made sense that for me to go to live with my Punjabi grandparents, Alesta,

because then I could, I was starting school a year earlier, they could take care of me during the week. And I sort of, one of the conversations that came out of writing this book was that in my mind, I've always felt like I suddenly went to go and live with my grandparents and was brought up by my grandparents, whereas actually having these conversations with my mom,

she's like, no, you were only there during like term time. But when you're a kid, it feels incredible, doesn't it? Yeah, and I found it very difficult. Yeah, 100%. And I found it really difficult, the separation, at the end of start of the week on a Sunday night when my mum would leave me at my grandparents, I would find that moment of separation

really quite traumatic. And that's something that I only really started to reflect on when I was writing. That really, that is interesting to me because how old were you when you were in inverted commerce, sent to go and live with your grandparents in Leicester? Because I mean, Leicester and Coventry is not a million miles away. No, no, that's the thing. Like my mum would work, she would come, you know, drive over at the weekends and I would spend the weekends in Coventry.

But I think I must have been about three and a half or something because it was just at the start of like nursery. Gosh, so it's really young. It's young that actually you were sent to go and have the schooling with your grandparents during time. Yeah. When I actually think back on it, it was just this extended family environment. And as much as those memories of the pain and upset

of having to say goodbye to my parents at the end of each week are there. Like I've so much of the reason I'm connected and immersed in my Punjabiness and culture comes from that experience of being totally immersed in the language and culture through living with my Punjabi grandparents. Absolutely. So for you, there was nothing unusual about your childhood?

Not at all, no. For me, this is the thing, like I had totally no concept of this being in any way extraordinary or different. And did anybody else treat you as extraordinary or different or everybody else was just accepting of you and your Punjabi grandparents as well? I think at the time it seemed to me like it was just I was getting lots of

positive affirmation, encouragement, support. Looking back I can see that the reason I was getting a lot of that stuff was because of those conditions maybe and the fact that I was this little white boy who was speaking Punjabi and eating dal roti really proficiently with my hands and dancing pangra and doing all the things that are in no way actually remarkable for a South Asian child being you know brought up within their culture it's in no way remarkable really other than the fact that I you know looked white. Yeah, and so Yeah, as during the process of writing the book, I was sort of reflecting on that being like, oh wow I wonder if and actually I think I really do think that a lot of that support and encouragement that I got was because there was never a sense of expectation and so I was never treated with a sense of

I guess duty there was no sense of of expectation. And so I was never treated with a sense of, I guess, duty, there was no sense of shame. And it's really strange and sad when I speak to others, particularly like my South Asian peers, I mean, really of all ages, and they share how a lot of their experiences of growing up with ones are feeling like they had a duty or they felt embarrassed when they made mistakes with the language and they felt

that they were being chastised. And I think, you know, I just thought I was getting this, well, I did have this just really wonderful childhood where I was given lots of encouragement and I wasn't overly corrected and anything I did try my hand at was encouraged. But yeah, looking back, I think, you know, that's probably because there also wasn't perhaps

an expectation, those sorts of aunties and uncles who would sort of crack that mother tongue whip, as I put it in the book, were a bit more lenient with me because there was no expectation, I think. Well then tell me about where the both not half term came from then for you. How did that come about? So in 2015 I attended a close family friends wedding. Punjabi Sikh weddings had always felt like the I felt most at home in those environments and so I was

at this wedding in in 2015 and suddenly I realized that people couldn't quite understand, people, everybody thought that I was just like a friend of the grooms from work or something. Nobody made the connection that my dad sat next to me was my dad. And then there were like Punjabi uncles who were wanting to record videos of me on for their WhatsApp groups

and to basically shame their kids being like, look, this white man speaks really good Punjabi. Why don't you? And it's like, well, that's the problem. And that whole night, and there was particularly there was a young girl who's sort of watching me when I was on the dance floor. And I remember the look on her face. I could just really see in her face that she couldn't understand why I was what I was. A young Punjabi girl. A young Punjabi girl who was sort of looking at me with a really quizzical look on her face. Like why is this white guy able to do this?

Yeah, at least that's what I took from it. Obviously, I don't really know what she was thinking. But yeah, that's what I really... And that whole night made me feel very suddenly. And it was my sister who sort of drawing a comparison with the queer experience pointed out, she was like, oh, that's your first experience of feeling othered, isn't it?

It really hit me like a train. And so from then up until January 2019, I was searching for ways to figure out who I was and I really wanted to basically get back to a place like when I was at school where my Punjabi identity was known and understood. Okay, but again, I'm interested in what you're saying that up until that point in 2015,

you hadn't questioned your identity in any way shape or form You felt perfectly at home within the Sikh community and with your Punjabi background and then suddenly it's being at this wedding Where it sounds as though you've then spiraled off into questioning your identity So it is that right that something triggered you to think hang on who am I? Yeah, I mean, I think it was adulthood as well. You know, it was like I was 20, 24 at that point. I think, you know, it's like the transition into proper early adulthood, interacting with the,

I guess the borders and binaries that categorize the world. And a big part of that's also my industry as an actor. You know, everything casting is based on what you look like, what you appear as. Well, I was going to ask you about that because obviously, you know, as an actor, as a writer, as a director, as somebody working within the entertainment industry, have you been categorized? You must have been. Well, yeah, I was sort of, the industry taught me really to be grateful for my whiteness

because my whiteness was what was gonna get me work. Really? And my whiteness did get me work. And I think that's what sort of really led to, coming back to your original question, which is about where Both Not Half came from, is that that was, I shot a video of me speaking Punjabi

very much off the cuff. I was literally, my hair was still wet, I was wearing a dressing gown, I got out, I just had a shower, I was cooking some dhal and I posted that online. It went just crazy overnight, just more views than I'd ever had. Yeah, it was sort of going viral and all these comments started coming through and I couldn't really keep up with it. But there was one that really made me stop scrolling, which was somebody tagging her mate saying, "'Look, this guy speaks better Punjabi than us,

"'and he's only half Punjabi.'" And seeing that the phrase, half in that context suddenly it was like something just sort of fell into place and the three words both not half sort of just came to me in that moment and I sort of replied to that comment with it as a hashtag and then I then I updated the post to include the hashtag both not half and then suddenly like that seemed to really capture people's imagination regardless of whether they were you know mixed quote-unquote race but people of all mixed identities suddenly felt a real sense of resonance with this idea of being whole and multiple of being both

that must have been incredibly confusing for you to experience that othering. Yeah, I didn't feel too... I don't know if I did, I did feel othered in that moment, I'm not sure, but there was a sense of... Incompleteness. Yes, it was like that I was somehow, you know, that it was somehow that I couldn't claim full ownership and authorship of myself of my own yeah only half yeah that I would never be enough I would never be whole and I think and I think that was what particularly was confusing people in that video it's not just that it's a white person speaking Punjabi there are you know I was about to say like plenty of white people do speak there's not there's not but like there are some people who have learned the

language and that's fine um but it wasn't just who have learnt the language and that's fine. But it wasn't just that I was speaking the language, it's that my whole, the sort of the way I was speaking, my accent is very specific to like where I spent time as a kid in India, my whole body and mannerisms, there was a sort of, I guess a cadence to what I was saying as well that- That's so authentic.

Yeah, and that was what was confusing because they were like, not only are they hearing a white guy speaking Punjabi, that they're seeing the embodiment of Punjabiness in a way that is very hard to explain to the point that a lot of people, there were some comments that seemed to think that I was lip syncing or that there was some sort of,

I guess nowadays people would probably reach for AI as the solution but... But it was basically what we're saying is that seeing this side of you was very confusing to the audience. Go hang on, we're seeing what appears to be a white guy who can speak fluent Punjabi and has all of the embodiment as well of his culture. This is just mind-blowing to us. So hence the both not half.

Yeah and I think I hadn't realized up until that point that that was really why I was struggling because I think I'd internalized, even though I'd had this bothness in my upbringing, the language I'd always used was half. And so I think there was definitely, I'd always describe myself as half Indian. I really, which is what we tend to do, don't we? Yeah. We do tend to say that about mixed heritage people is they're half this, half that.

Yeah. And that there's something just gorgeous about the fact that you're going, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not half anything, I'm complete. Mm. I'm complete. fires are burning. Be the first to know what's going on and what that means for you and for Canadians. This situation has changed very quickly. Helping make sense of the world when it matters most. Stay in the know. CBC News. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating

at your kids game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at OnePeloton.ca. So why was it so important for you to tell your story? Well, it was important to me to tell it because I needed to understand it. That's where it came from. Essentially after those videos had gone viral, I felt like I had...

I felt like the jaws of the influencer beast were opening up being like, you can become an influencer now and chase views and likes and all these things. That must have been quite seductive. Yeah, yeah, very. But I hated it. I tried doing it and I was just like, no, this is... I couldn't... firstly, I couldn't understand how, yeah, it would really be to my benefit in any way. And also it just felt quite, I don't know, superficial.

I'm really intrigued to hear you say that because it's incredibly seductive to suddenly have the likes, the clicks, the follows, the invitation to do more, the invitation to be better known. Yeah. But then how interesting, and especially I think for somebody of your age to go, nah, I did not like this at all, you know, this felt too superficial to me. So was it a conscious choice then of yours to go, no, I'm gonna try and hold this beast at bay a little bit?

Yeah, yeah, very consciously. I wrote in my journal, I think it's like the verbatim in the book where I say, you know, I just need to sit with this, I need to figure it out, I need to figure it out, I need to, this isn't going away, I just need to, yeah, I just need to figure out what this is. And so that summer, so I think from around spring 2019,

towards the end of that year, I spent a lot of time sort of journaling, figuring it out, writing out the story, figuring out what is this? And I was hoping to get that, I don't know, published as a Guardian Long Read or as a BBC Stories thing. And there was a couple of editors, like Anisa Subedar at the BBC, who very kindly gave me a load of feedback.

Satnam Sanghera as well came back and was like, this sounds more like the opening of a book, but you know, books are long and hard. You don't want to do that. And then, then the TEDx thing came along and suddenly I had this like 4,000 word perfectly prepared talk. And so it was just like the most perfect convergence. And so that's when I told the both not half story. And that was really just the both not half story, the journey to articulating both not half. And I felt like I'd only just really scratched the surface of what the story was.

I think I came back from that. I was just starting to realize that the both not half idea, this sort of non-binary thinking the The understanding that identity is whole and multiple in so many aspects of our lives started I was starting to live it for the first time and When I started putting together the the proposal for the book. I was like, oh, yeah, there's just so much more To say and to explore. Do you think we're still struggling with that idea that we are multiple selves in a way,

and this idea of we are not just binary? Do you know what I mean? That we all have different aspects of ourselves. Do you think we're still struggling with that as a culture? Yeah, yeah, I think we're very happy to sort of accept difference as long as it fits Yeah, yeah, I think we're very happy to sort of accept difference as long as it fits within binaries. And so I think this is something that,

well, I think you've touched upon it in your ep with Dr. Range. Yeah. This idea of how, you know, even I explore this in the book in chapter six about bisexuality as being something that sort of challenges notions of like, you know, even I explore this in the book in chapter six about bisexuality as being something that sort of challenges notions of like, you know, some people be like, yeah, I'm gay, straight, fine.

As soon as you introduce this idea of any sort of fluidity, any sort of, you know, it's not this thing or that thing. That sort of really is felt as like an attack on the sort of the structures that we use to Structure society and people just cannot cope Get their heads around it at all. I mean, you know, as you know, I've talked about this with dr Range as well, but I've very much have this asked of me so many times in that I've had relationships with men I've had a relationship with a woman and I get asked constantly. So you're bisexual. My response is no, I'm me. Yeah, yeah. You know, there's different

aspects to me. Yeah. You know, I fell in love with some fell in love with a person. Simple as that. And you're quite right. People really struggle, don't they, to understand that we are complex. We're kaleidoscopic. There's different parts of us. It seems to be a sort of, I don't know, inability for us to understand the complexity of human nature maybe? I don't know. I think it comes from fear. I think people are, I think those of us who have had the courage to really truly ask ourselves the question, who am I? And to go and find those answers and live those answers. For people who have not done that,

to encounter people who have done that, I think they find that very intimidating and quite terrifying. Because actually, if the world is telling you, you're this and you're that, and it's very clear, it's very simple. You don't have to do much, you can sort of get on. So there's not much growth within that, is there?

As you say, it's a simplicity of, you know, I understand this, but to try and challenge anybody further than that, to grow within that is quite a challenge. And in a way I get it because it's easy. I mean, it would just be, it'd be so much easier, wouldn't it? If you didn't have to. But I guess as given with our experiences is that because our being doesn't fit easily into the framework that we've sort of been born into. And that's why in a way I have actually, I think for a while I was trying to make the book a sort of like, oh, it was really difficult.

This was really hard. And there are bits of the journey that have been difficult and hard, but like I'm quite open about the fact that my childhood was actually really joyous and quite easy. Which is wonderful. Because I think this is these sorts of questions, they are, this is a joyous invitation

to figure out who you are. And I think, yeah, it would be, I hope and partly the reason why I wanted to, yeah, tell the story in the level of detail and as expansively as I've gone into is because I think this is something that the both not half journey does not in any way exclusively apply to people of mixed ethnicity or mixed race. It is such a broader universal idea. It applies to humanity. So let's talk a little bit more about that because you've touched

on the LGBTQI community with your book and with your work. So why has that been important to you to then sort of extend that idea into identity and gender and sexuality? That really came because, like I said, my sister was one of the first people to recognise that experience at the wedding was an experience of othering and it's that sort of gave me insight into her experiences as a as a queer brown woman and when I started writing that chapter I really thought I was just writing a chapter drawing comparisons and finding the parallels between my experiences and her experiences. But actually the more I did that, I then started to, I guess also as well, there was around the time of, what was it, January around in 2019, when I was writing that essay that became the Ted Talk, conversations around non-binary gender identities were becoming a bit more mainstream. And so I actually, one of the lines that I wrote

in the essay was about recognizing that both not half was a sort of non-binary way of thinking. So that was all going on around the time that I was first having these thoughts. And then really it's the, what really caught me off guard when I was writing and researching that chapter was how it sort of freed me up to think about my own sexuality and

I'd always identified as straight But I also had a slight inkling that I had friends who were straighter I've always felt yeah, and it's all there were a few memories that then sort of came to the fore. I remember an ex-girlfriend suggesting a threesome and I was like, oh, very exciting. And then she was like, what if it was with another guy? And it was this bizarre experience where I, I remember very clearly my brain being like,

no, this is awful, this is the wrong threesome. And then my body just being like, hello. And I was like, what is going on? This is totally bizarre. And I just sort of was like, oh, I don't know, it was late, repress, ignore that. And because it was never a strong feeling of something that I wanted to explore. But again, it's still an acceptance of yourself.

And this is the thing, so when I was writing the book and when I was thinking about both not having the context of my sister's journey of coming out and her finding her pride. Um, and, and then I was thinking about myself and I was like, Oh, I think I'm actually really bound by these shackles of shame as well. And, and so I started just sort of allowing myself to have the thoughts, click on that category on the website, which, you know, I'd very, I've been like, I hadn't even dared look at gay porn because I was like, I thought, I don't know, some sexuality ninjas were going to kick down the door and be like, there he is.

He clicked on it. Um, but really through that, I then found this incredible research, um, by Dr. Rich Savin Williams at Cornell about this, um, I don't know, it's always difficult with language, but this category, this area of specifically male sexuality and his book was called, his research was called Mostly Straight. And I was reading through all that research and I was like, ah, this is me.

Which was very much about, you know, people who would, to all intents and purposes, identify and their behaviors would perhaps be considered straight, but are nevertheless open to the idea of more and would never really rule anything out. And so it doesn't even necessarily have to be something that you would act on, but the experiments he was describing of like pupil dilation and stuff in response to certain imagery, I was like, I definitely know that I would, where I would sit on that. Yeah, in the sort of, I don't know, what is it, the results or whatever, yeah.

In the data. Yeah, in the data. I saw myself in that. And so I was like, ah. And so there was this journey of it being, going from being about me, yeah, parallels with my sister's experiences and her ability for empathy and my own sense of,

you know, shaking off ideas of respectability and embracing ideas of liberation and yeah. But ultimately also it's just about the idea of, I love what you've just said about, you know, people just being interested about more. Yeah. Just wanting more. Yeah.

You know, that's a wonderful thing, I think. Let's take a quick break here, but don't go anywhere, Jassa, because in a moment I'm going to be steering you towards a totally different thing, which is my box of truth Which is sitting just sitting next to you at the moment you have a little box of cards with Personal questions on there. The only rule is that you must answer and that it must be honest How are you feeling about that? little nervous It won't Be honest how are you feeling about that?

No, I'm very excited. Oh, I love these things Breaking news happens anywhere, anytime. Police have warned the protesters repeatedly, get back. CBC News brings the story to you as it happens. Hundreds of wildfires are burning. Be the first to know what's going on and what that means for you and for Canadians. This situation has changed very quickly. Helping make sense of the world when it matters most.

Stay in the know. CBC News. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are.

So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push, find your power. Peloton, visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. ["It Can't Just Be Me"] Welcome back to It Can't Just Be Me and I'm here with Jassa Alualia and it's time for one of my favourite bits of the show. Do you know what the reason I love this is because it just reveals a little bit more about the personality without having the sort of very structured questions but it all depends on how willing you are to go there, Jas. So next to you, you've got the it can't just be me box of truth.

My obsession is that I think we're losing the art of conversation. And this is a good a good conversation starter. So have a look at the cards. Pick whichever one you want. The rules are you've just got to tell the truth. OK, so it's not random. Oh, they're random. No, do it. So I can look and choose one. Pick whichever one you want. The rules are you've just got to tell the truth. Okay. So it's not random. So.

Oh, they're random. No, do it. So I can look and choose one or do I just pick one at random? No, no, no, no, no. No, there's no such control of that. Okay, okay. You just pick one at random. Okay, picking one at random.

Okay. All right, there we go. Okay, what does it say? Ooh. What work were you doing the last time you forgot time altogether? Oh, I love that. So the last time that you went into complete flow, what work were you doing?

I don't know if it would count as work as such, but I recently, since finishing the book, I really reconnected with playing my tabla. I have no idea what this is. You probably would recognize them if you saw them like Indian hand drums you've got the one slightly bigger one, one smaller one with black spots on the skins. So I grew up learning the tabla from by Gurmeet Singh Virdi, who was like one of the best teachers in the UK, if not Europe or the world, and the Dharbha festival at the Barbican

is founded in his memory. Now I had no idea of his international standing while he was alive, no idea of his international standing while he was alive. He was just known to me as Mr. Riddhi, who came into my school to teach me and whose house I would go to and pay a five pounds, a fiver for lessons and I learnt with him until he died when I was 15 I think. and recently I went to a gig that a friend of mine was playing at and the sort of headline event was a Serod player, Shumika Dutta and Gurudean Riot was the doubler player who was playing and I was listening and I was like his playing was just immaculate Like I'm by no means in any way experts nor is my ear that well attuned,

but I could just, I guess it's like, you know, great wine. You've got a great, you know, when you're drinking good stuff. And I knew that I was listening to really great stuff and I had the chance to chat to him afterwards. And I said, yeah, it was incredible. I thought your playing was phenomenal. I used to learn, yeah, from Mr mr. Virdi good meeting Virdi and he goes that was my

Nanaji that was my grandfather I was like what and so we kept in touch and then yeah Gurudev does lessons online so I started taking lessons again from him. And then just the weekend before last, I went on a like a three day retreat, which was just fully immersive from, yeah, Dawn till dusk, learning, playing. How wonderful. Yeah, that was probably the last time I forgot time altogether was over that weekend, just playing doubler. That is amazing. To have that immersive experience, to have that connection as well, to have that privilege, and to have that skill now as well.

How wonderful to have that three day experience of just losing time. It was so lovely to be back in that state. And also because with this, with having written the book and doing interviews and podcasts and conversations like this, where I guess I'm in the position of, I don't know, expert in a way. Like I'm talking from a position of authority

and to go back to being in a total state of, to be totally humbled to be a student again, to be in a state of learning. You know, I was learning, I was in the, you know, the beginners slash intermediate group and so I was there with, you know, kids who are literally learning how to like just hit the drum for the first time.

And it was very, very humbling, but just so wonderful to just be like, I can just accept that I am now, I am the student, I'm the pupil and I'm here to learn. And it was just such a, yeah, a joy to be taught and to absorb, yeah. Before you go, can you just share one bit of advice or wisdom that either somebody shared with you

or that you live your life by. What would you say to people listening? Oh wow. It's difficult that I know. It's something I've been saying a lot. So this idea that none of us are half anything, all of us are both something is something that I'm trying to now, I'm trying to live by that. I'm trying to live by the idea of the oneness that I was talking about.

That's why the last chapter is called one, not both. Recognizing the sort of that sort of sense of separation and distinction between the self and the other is an illusion really. And trying to as best I can live that in my in my day to day it's what it's what informs you know my my work as an actor I think I'm becoming a much better actor because I'm now I'm not using it as a means to it's not sort of connected to a sense of ego in the way that I think it used to be for me I was trying to sort of connected to a sense of ego in the way that I think it used to be for me. I was trying to sort of figure out a lot of these questions through the work, whereas now

the work is what takes precedence. And also my activism and the work I do with equity and with my trade union, it all comes from that. It's what inspired me to, you know, join the counter demo in Walthamstow night before last. And all the protests that I've been on over the past few years. Yeah, that one is sort of recognizing that this, the book is dedicated to my... to Beejee, my grandmother, my Punjabi grandmother, who lived through partition, who fled her home as it was

in flames. And the... the epigraph is, you know, for Beejee, partitioned but never divided. And I think I really learnt that sense of oneness, that love, irrespective of anything from her. So yeah, I'm trying to remain as connected to that as I can moving forwards. Jassa, Aloalia, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure and a privilege to talk to you and to listen to you actually. So thank you very much indeed. Thank you very much Anna. Thank you. That's it for today but I'll be back next week with a brand new episode of It Can't

Just Be Me. But in the meantime I also want to hear from you because this Friday you can hear the next episode of It's Not Just You. In these special Friday episodes I'll be joined by different experts every week and we'll be answering your dilemmas. So please, if there's something you want to talk about, doesn't matter whether it's big or small, funny or serious, get in touch with us, we're here for you. You can DM me or email hello at itcan'tjustbeme.co.uk. And if you want to see more of the show, remember you can find us on Instagram.

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