It Can't Just Be Me - Resisting Objectification with Ashley James

Episode Date: January 29, 2025

Anna's guest this week is Ashley James: woman full of contradictions. Originally from a working class family in Northumberland, she won a scholarship to boarding school where she had to change her accent to fit in, and had a friend with a castle who quite literally rubbed shoulders with royalty. She found fame via Made in Chelsea, and it's been hard graft since then: she’s DJ’d all over the world, built up an impressive broadcasting career, and is now a regular on This Morning. Over the past decade she’s become increasingly known for her outspoken work around the double standards affecting women in the media, and she's here to talk about what it’s really like being a woman in the public eye, and the cost of what our cultural objectification of women has had on us.If you or someone you know is struggling with any of the topics discussed in It Can’t Just Be Me, you can find useful resources and support here: https://audioalways.lnk.to/ItcantjustbemeIG.Every Friday Anna, alongside a panel of experts, will be addressing YOUR dilemmas in our brand new episodes ‘It’s Not Just You'! If you have a dilemma or situation you'd like discussed, reach out to Anna by emailing [e-mail] or DM her on Instagram @itcantjustbemepod Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Please play responsibly. Hello, I'm Anna Richardson and welcome to It Can't Just Be Me. If you've listened before, hello. And if you're joining me for the very first time, it's great to have you here. This is the podcast that helps you realise you're not the only one. It's a safe space where nothing is off limits as we try to help you understand that whatever you might be going through, it's really not just you. So each week I'm joined by a different celebrity guest

who'll talk through the challenges and hurdles they faced in their own lives in order to help you with yours. I want to know about it all. The weird, the wonderful, the crazy because these conversations are nothing if not open and honest. So let's get started. My guest today is a woman full of contradictions. Originally from a working-class family in Northumberland, she won a scholarship to boarding school

where she had to change her accent to fit in and had a friend with a castle who quite literally rubbed shoulders with royalty. Ambitious and driven, she moved to London, modelled for Abercrombie and Fitch, managed a high street food chain store before getting a chance break on the most aspirational of all structured reality shows made in Chelsea.

Despite the success and the assumptions people made about her for being on a show about privilege, she was still a working class girl from Northumberland and the most broke she'd ever been in her life. Since appearing on that show, she's DJ'd all over the world, has built up an impressive broadcasting career, and is now a regular on This Morning. But over the past decade, she's become increasingly known for her outspoken work around the double standards affecting women in the media. And she's here to talk about what it's really like being a woman in the public eye and the cost of what our cultural objectification of women has had on all of us. It is of course Ashley James.

Hello! Love that intro. It must be so weird hearing intros like that about yourself when you're just looking at somebody sort of delivering an intro about how fabulous you are. Well not even fabulous but it's just quite interesting hearing like other people's versions of you you know. Yes. But I thought it was very good, a good intro. Well it does sound a bit like an obituary. That's the only thing I think with these intros but it's lovely to have you here and there's clearly a lot that we need to talk about but before we really get into that nitty-gritty tell me what your it can't just be me dilemma is please. Bit of an X-rated one. I love that, you know that I'm gonna love that. I'm going straight in with it, but people using the term down there to talk about our volvers

Don't we and you know I've noticed it so much in my like postnatal period because I'd have people like people women Contacting me saying oh, can you talk a bit more about prolapse or piles because I've got a few issues down there down below down there down below and it's like even when it comes to like getting treatment for piles or prolapse but too embarrassed to talk about it and it is for me the equivalent of calling your arm your over there's it's like we have so much shame and we've hyper sexualized the female body so much that we can't even just call the spade a spade. You're right why do you think we do that? Because actually,

I'm just thinking whether I do that. I'm pretty on the nose I think when I go and see the doctor. I will talk about my vulva, my clitoris, my vagina, you know, atrophy, whatever it happens to be. So I hear you that it's not a good thing, is it? That why don't we just own it and say, that's my clitoris, those are my labia, this is my vulva, this is my vagina, The end. Yeah, because it's not putting anything on a biological term. There shouldn't be shame attached to biology. It's like, imagine if like you had to use another word for your nose. Yeah, my thingy. Yeah, like, oh, my little betweeny. My little button on my face.

Exactly. So you think there's just shame attached to the whole thing? Yeah. And I think it actually does a disservice to women, especially in childbirth and probably beyond when they're having to deal with, whether it's incontinence or piles or all the things that I've had to deal with in the last couple of years, because people are so ashamed of it and find it so uncomfortable to even say the words

that then how are they meant to seek help and also how are we meant to push, sorry, I've gone in so heavy right from the beginning. No, well, look, I love a deep dive. I love a deep dive,, I've gone in so heavy right from the beginning. Look, I love a deep dive. I love a deep dive, so I'm happy to go heavy right from the beginning. Interestingly, do you find that the med... When you were having your babies,

did the midwives or the medics say down there or did they go straight in with vagina vulva uterus? I'll be honest, I don't think they ever mentioned any body parts. At all? No. I mean, even... That shocks me.

Do you know what is quite interesting? Because I remember when I was pregnant with Alfie, my first boy, and the midwife was essentially telling me that a really good thing to stimulate birth is to essentially have orgasms. But she was saying it in a very likeabout way, like you could pleasure yourself, but in a very like, whoo, because it is funny because never in any other moment of a woman's life would it be acceptable to encourage someone to masturbate.

Exactly. Even then the midwives are using euphemisms, are they, for? Well, I actually don't remember a lot about my first birth because it was pretty traumatic. And when I did the birth debrief, I kind of thought, I'm don't remember a lot about my first birth because it was pretty traumatic. And when I did the birth debrief, I kind of thought I'm quite a pragmatic person. So I thought they might say, really sorry, actually, we'd run out of budget for C-sections or you know, we all know that the NHS is under like huge targets. It was before the Ockenden report came out.

I thought maybe because of lockdown and COVID, there might have been short like short staffed and they were just like, no, their birthnotes say that you were coping fine. And so there's this really weird thing that I feel like women's pain, like pain should be subjective. But for some reason, when it comes to women, other people decide and we hear people be like, oh, I've got a really high because I was saying, oh, but I've got a really high pain tolerance. And it's like, but

even if I didn't have a high pain tolerance, surely pain is pain. And if you're in pain even if I didn't have a high pain tolerance, surely pain is pain. And if you're in pain, there is like medicine to help. Well, there's a great deal of medical misogyny that's talked about in the press at the moment. And I think everything you're talking about is so pressing and so relevant to that. And particularly when it comes to gynecology

and childbirth. I was always told like, no, your options, these are all the different pain release. These are your options, always speak your mind. I mean, I've never been a these are all the different pain reliefs these are your options always speak your mind I mean I've never been a shy Ben as they'd say up north so it's like I said to Tommy were you under any illusion that I was coping fine because the birth debrief my notes that I was coping fine and he was like no I think you made it pretty clear. I guess it's definitely given me fire in my belly to fight for things to be better

but I think what's frustrating is the clap back is always, do you think you're the first person to have ever given birth? And it's like, no, and I won't be the last, which is why it should be better. But also you get labeled as being a sort of shrill, difficult woman, of course. Oh, I don't mind being a difficult woman. I love that. I absolutely hear you. Thank you. So I know that we have gone down a rabbit hole of trauma and birth and thank you for talking about that. I think it's really important and I absolutely support you in being a shrill and difficult woman.

Thank you. And saying this isn't okay. So just moving on. Yeah. If we go right back to the start of your life and just talk a little bit about your roots, you grew up in the northeast of England, you've called yourself a Ben, difficult Ben already, you grew up in a working-class family, your dad was a truck driver, your mum, a hairdresser? Originally farming background but he always had two jobs, so he was a dairy farmer and then he was a part-time fireman and then he went into truck driving driving so yeah I'd get sent to boarding school in the top of a truck. I love all of that but this is what's

interesting is that you got a scholarship to an incredibly posh boarding school now just tell me a little bit about that because your dad's a farmer did various jobs your mother was a hairdresser very very proudly working-class North Eastern. What was the desire to send you to boarding school? So I think originally, it was my brother who's three years older than me. He's very academic, ginger, very like, I think my parents were very worried how he'd cope in the one school that was on offer to them. Because I think it was a, you know, it was,

they just didn't want my brother to be bullied and they didn't want him to be ashamed of the way in which he was. And I remember when he started, I was just fascinated. It was before Harry Potter came out, but I was like, you know, I was like, what is this amazing place? And everyone's so nice. And I'd love going every Sunday. You could go to church and that was how they'd see you on the weekend.

And I just loved the whole thing. And I remember saying to my parents. What, they added boarding school. Yeah, I loved it. You knew that there was this boarding school. Yeah, I just thought it was so exciting because we're from like a very small town. And so really nobody socializes outside of that space.

So suddenly I was going and people dressed differently and sounded differently. And I remember just the whole thing. I was like, I wanna go there. And I remember saying to my mom and dad, so at this point it would have been about six, I want to go. And my dad says now that a lot of people had said to him, it won't matter for your daughters,

cause he's got me and then I've got a younger sister. It won't matter for your daughters, I guess with the insinuation that we'd marry and then it didn't matter about our education. So my dad kind of thought, well, no, it's actually more important for them. because he always said I never want them to be dependent on any man. So they were like, yeah, well, he's questionable,

but yeah, in that, in that set setting then, yeah. And then I think my parents kind of had a conversation about how they couldn't really afford it. So I think I went and said to one of the teachers, can I have a scholarship? And then I went and stayed for a weekend and then I got a scholarship. I mean, again, you know, we have that connection because I'm a Vickers daughter. Yeah. So and I went to boarding school and I was allowed in because clearly we had fuck all money.

So I was in on a special bursary as well. Sort of special church church thing that you can let the poor kids in. You ended up feeling othered at school and then different when you came back home again for the school holidays. So that must have been really confusing because how old were you when you went to school? Seven. You were seven when you went to boarding school? Oh I'd miss that. Okay I was ten. Wow seven is incredibly young. Do you know what's interesting?

Because my brother and sister both ended up weekly boarding. And I remember I came home one weekend, first weekend I started and I got back on the Monday and I felt like I'd missed everything. And so I asked if I could fully board. And I really loved it, but I did definitely notice from a really young age, obviously I can like dissect it as an adult, but I always was notice from a really young age. Obviously I can like dissect it

as an adult but I always was hyper aware of the fact that I didn't fit in and I really wanted to fit in. And how were you hyper aware of that? How did you know you didn't fit in? So the kids would call me fashion witch. I remember my mum gave me this Victoria Beckham. Do you remember when Victoria Beckham had like shaved at the back and long at the front? That is not a very boarding school type of hair. It's not a look for boarding school. Whereas my mum was a hairdresser,

she's like, this will be great. You're on trend Ashley, I know you're only seven, but you're on trend. Yeah, and so I remember when I got my first bra, quite young, my mum had bought me a black bra and apparently that was very tarty. This is how old were you at this point? Really young, young.

It's so funny, like all my friends, all the girls in my year had titles. So even when I look back at the letters that I'd have to write my parents, I'd put like the right honourable so and so or the Duke and Duchess of this. Cause I mean, like the fact that you can be seven or eight and have a complex that your parents don't have titles kind of explains the type of school it was. But I even remember going to play with friends in the holidays and I mean, it's so wild thinking about it but you know they have to teach you how to curtsy because back then Prince Charles would be coming but then they'd tell my parents to pick me up early so that I wouldn't be around.

I've got to say so for people listening to this I and this never happens to me I audibly gasped when I heard this interview that you gave recently about the fact that you went to go and see a mate who lived in a castle and Prince Charles at the time was coming to visit and you were asked to go home yeah I was like oh my god and do you think that that was because they thought she's working oh she's a bit chubby she's a bit chubby she's got the Victorian back end yeah do you think that was the case I think it would have come more from the parents because they were still like my friends, even though they'd say like random comments,

you know, they were still my friends, but I'm sure a lot of it would have been probably more like the parents. Toes from the parents. But then it was weird because I'd go home and then I'd also be teased at home. And I think also, I'm sure my parents wouldn't mind me saying that they probably didn't handle it very well because they'd never had experience of

someone living outside of their area so suddenly they were embarrassed of like me and the way I spoke and I remember once opening the fridge and being like oh amazing we've got pate and dad's like what you doing with my corned beef man and you know we just had these like almost like totally different upbringings and I remember at school we were told that we had to address, I mean, it's so sexist looking back, but all men, we had to address a sir. So I'd go to the co-op and be like, thank you, sir.

And my dad's like, stop seeing that man. Like, so, you know, I get teased by a lot of the people in the town and they probably would also consider me and my family really posh. Yeah. Because I was at boarding school. So I definitely felt like I never quite belonged. But do you know what?

I think what's interesting about kids that have gone to boarding school is that you absolutely end up I think with a mixture of resilience which you clearly have, I clearly have as well, and drive but also I think at quite low levels of anxiety and sometimes a little bit of low depression in life which I can absolutely identify with as well. How has it affected you, do you think, as an adult? Can you identify with any of that? Yeah, so I definitely have, I mean, I'd say high constant anxiety, although I've learned definitely how to like cope with it and manage it.

Definitely depression, really low self-esteem. I remember just letting guys treat me like shit for years and I think like I always say to people when I walk into a room I automatically assume people don't like me and I have to almost like work really hard for them to like me. I wonder if that is a boarding school thing or whether that's also partly a female thing but maybe it is a boarding school because was it all girls? No it was mixed. Okay so again I can understand you're trapped in a place 24 hours a day with strangers, so you have to work really hard at being liked and particularly if there's boys there. Now look, you are clearly a very driven woman,

as we've touched on, you're a very resilient woman and you've built a successful career as a broadcaster now. Did you always know, given that you said that actually I suffer with with really low self-esteem, did you know that you always wanted to be in the spotlight? Yeah but again is that trauma? I'm like look at me now! Do you like me now? But I remember I worked for BBC Radio Cumbria just as like work experience. I love that you did that. Yeah so I stood outside until I got a job there and I loved it. And the guy who actually took me on, Gordon Swindlehurst, he was called.

I'm so grateful to him. And I think that was kind of like my first appreciation of, wow, I could do this thing. That's really exciting. But it wasn't really supported by the school. And I remember when I kind of went to apply, like went to start applying for university and then looking at grad schemes, like there wasn't really anyone in this world. And I kind of felt like,

oh, maybe you already have to be famous to be in it. It's difficult to get in. It certainly was difficult to get in. I think it started to get better in the sort of, in the 2000s. Well, also now because of social media, everyone kind of has their own platform and you can contact people much easier. Whereas really it wasn't

like that before was it? It was so difficult to find any in and I think it was actually only working at Abercrombie and Fitch that I started to meet really interesting people who were aspiring actors and dancers you know I think Rita Ora worked there all all these wonderful people. And that was kind of the first time that I became friends with people doing something exciting in this industry. I thought if they could do it, why can't I? And that kind of led you to Maiden Chelsea, didn't it? Yeah, so at the time I was working for ITSU. I was general manager, totally out of my depth.

I love an ITSU. I love ITSU. Do you still go in there? Oh, I love it. That was the best thing at the job for 14 months getting to eat itsu like three times a day. Do you know what the the detox miso with the glass noodles. Yeah I love it all. So that was a real perk of the job but I didn't love my life. I was 25 at the time and I remember thinking what am I doing respectfully to itsu like how have I ended up in a fish shop I was general manager of the Fleet Street store and so it Was underneath Goldman Sachs and there were so many assholes

Every day that I had to so sometimes I jump on the tail People blow what's a pretty girl like you do working behind a till So I remember thinking I just need to get out so I'd managed to save So I remember thinking I just need to get out. So I'd managed to save £2,000, which at the time was loads to save. And I remember I was chatting to Julian Metcalf about he wanted me maybe to move into the developmental team and work closely to him.

And I remember saying, well, I actually really want to try and be a presenter. And amazingly, he gave me an extra month's pay. Did he really? Yeah. I mean, I don't know if it was him, but someone in the company and they were like if it doesn't work out come back. What an extraordinary thing that he did or whoever it was that that is so unusual to say your ambition actually is to be

a broadcaster so I'm going to give you an extra month's pay to achieve that. But I remember looking at the costs at the time I was living in like a flat share I think my rent was 800 pound a month and then obviously plus bills and travel So I remember thinking right. I've got a month to make it So I quit on the Friday I decided to do this TV presenting course which was Monday to Thursday and it was on the Thursday that one of the girls I Became friends with on the course was so I'm actually gonna be an extra on Maiden Chelsea tomorrow. Would you want to come? And it was really funny because at the time Maiden Chelsea was huge, but I didn't watch reality TV and I was quite sno lot of presenting like Fern Cotton doing the Bafta red carpet. So I thought, oh, maybe I'll go and I can meet them.

I was like, I could take Fern's job like as if that's that easy, but you know, and you're kind of like slightly naive and also like have a drive to be like, I've got a month to make it. I just need to do what I can. So that was when I went there. I sat in the background, I think for one scene scene, and then the following time, they were like, we'd really love you to come on. And I was like, oh no, it's not really my thing.

I'm trying to be a presenter. But I went to go watch the next time, and I think one of the cast had seen me, and there was like a speed dating thing, and they were like, why doesn't she do it? So they'd said to me, look, do you wanna do it? He really wants to go on a date with you. And I remember thinking, how funny will it be to my mates

who know that I hate reality TV if I'm on it? And I really just thought it would be that one-off thing. And I mean, it was like, it was quite a tricky show to come into because I didn't know anyone. And it really played into that feeling of kind of that shame of my working class roots, I guess. Again, I was just going to say, it's just we repeat patterns in life. And isn't it interesting that you went into a show, into a post show, basically, where you're repeating the pattern

of being the outsider, the working class girl who doesn't feel good enough to be there. Yeah, it was quite a tough show to go into. Like people, I remember no one talked to me, apart from Olly Locke. You don't really earn any money from filming on Maiden Chelsea, but obviously it was all the other opportunities that it can bring, but I wasn't a big part of that show. So I almost felt like I got all this sort of bad stereotypes of being on a reality show without the money.

So it was this kind of slightly weird thing that at least everyone else doing it, especially like all the main people, they were earning loads of money. So they might have been typecast as a reality star, but they were doing well from it. Whereas I felt like I was almost having to battle. Do you know, sort of what one thing that strikes me and, you know, I talk about this sometimes in my own therapy, weirdly, is that you've come from, in some sense, it's quite an abusive background in

terms of you know trying to fit in to boarding school and then you're going into what can be quite an abusive industry or you are in what is quite an abusive industry. Can you see that parallel? Yeah and I think I definitely knowing what I know now I would have handled things a lot differently and I totally lost myself in that environment because I didn't have any mentors I didn't have any one really that I could trust and reality TV has come a long way I think a lot of the tactics and things that they did back then you wouldn't get away with now but also it just wasn't, it honestly wasn't a very friendly environment

to be in and I remember my friend, she's still one of my best friends, she's from London and from those sort of circles and And I remember her saying like, oh, they're not like you, they're gonna eat you alive. And I'm like, I'm not, I'm not like ignorant. She was like, no, it's just, you know, I'd never really been around like bitchiness and it's very different growing up in the Lake District. Yeah, it's exploitative and it's abusive.

I mean, the checks and balances and the duty of care is so much better now. But you know, there is a parallel between where you've come from, where you want to be, where you are and also when you were talking about childbirth earlier on with just sort of like subtle abuse on abuse on abuse that one exposes oneself to. You know which which you're constantly trying to navigate and manage and this sort of leads me quite nicely actually on to one of the things that really drives you, something that you're really passionate about, which is the objectification and sexualisation

of women, particularly in the media. I know that you made a doc about it last year for this morning. Why is that something that you feel so strongly about? What's your experience been? So I think it started when I was 13, 14. So I was the first intake of girls, 37 of us versus 500 boys. And it was also the year that I got boobs and I was suddenly a 30 double G.

But I was also a child in every sense of the word. I wasn't sexual. I remember when I found out that guys found me attractive. I wasn't like very cool at school. And I remember when like the older boys, there was like whispers that people fancy me. And I remember being like, what? What me? Me.

But then very quickly with having boobs, it was like just really gross, sexualized. I remember boys would run up to me being like, are you shaving? It was just really like sexual and graphic. And I think adults, including teachers, would almost treat me like I was this kind of like sex mad person that they didn't let me.

I got attention for hugging my brother because they were like, well, people in the town know it's your brother. What are they going to think when they see a young girl canoodling with the opposite sex? So I almost- So it's straight away oppressing the young woman and oppressing the young woman who's attractive,

but also oppressing the young attractive woman who also happens to have large breasts. Yeah, and I felt like I was taught to cover up. If you want to be taken seriously, you've got brains. So I'd say that I spent like my early teens and into my twenties, probably also being a bit misogynistic, because I had been taught if you want to be taken seriously, you don't dress

certain ways and you don't wear makeup and you don't do all of these overtly feminine things. So I was like, I'm serious. And I think, you know, I grew up in I was a teenager in the cruel intentions era. So I very much was like, I'm going to be like Reese with a spoon. And so, you know, my virginity and my worth is all defined on me being like holier than that. Oh, how interesting. And so then when I joined this industry and got an agent in the kind of made in Chelsea days, it was suddenly like sex sells, you need to dress some more sexy. You need to, you know,

it's so I've suddenly like thrust the other way where I was being told that my success depended on me sexing it up and I remember that the point that I left one agent was when they were really pushing for me to have a famous boyfriend they were like if you want to be famous you need a famous boyfriend and I was like I don't want to be famous I just want to be successful FanDuel Casino's exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling, winning, which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute?

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You've bought a kayak! If you want to hear me uncover the secrets of over 120 comedians, writers and actors, find my mate bought a toaster and you can start listening to any episode that takes your fancy I Remember a brand saying oh we wouldn't work with actually we need someone who's more feminist and I I remember not by I'm a feminist And they were like oh no because she's always in the Daily Mail, you know, like parading her, flaunting her cleavage and parading her pins.

And I remember being like, you know that I don't write that about myself. I'm literally just wearing clothes on a body. And also am I not allowed to date? So then I allowed a lot of men to date me in secret because I was like, I feel like I didn't want them to have the heat on them. But I was like, I feel like it didn't want them to have the heat on them. But I was like, I feel like it's like making people not take me seriously.

And I would read like tabloid stories about me and be like, oh my God, even I don't like me. And I am me. So what the hell do other people think about me? What do other people think make of me? Yeah. And I felt like if I then wanted to be taken seriously, I had to completely kind of date in secret, which I mean, it's not like I was trying to overtly do it anyway, but I was like, why do we punish women? Well, you're never going to get it right. This is the thing.

You'll never get it right. We never get it right. But how do you feel you need to dress and present yourself now then? Oh, now I don't give a fuck. So you're like, this is what I want to look like. Thank you very much. I don't care what you think. It's not, yeah, a little bit of that. But also it's like I'm absolutely sick to death of feeling like I have to present myself in a way that makes society not judge me because they people judge you anyway.

And I remember when I was breastfeeding, it was this constant narrative of stop attention seeking, put it away. And it's like these are actually the same comments that I had as a 14 year old girl. And it's not my fault that I have boobs on my body. I didn't pay for them. I didn't want them. I don't even particularly like them.

And at the time, I didn't even particularly love breastfeeding, but my son wouldn't take a bottle. And I remember trying to juggle like TV work. It was obviously post lockdown that they'd been such a big gap. And I was like, I'm just doing my best. I can't leave him, I'd love to leave him. And then I felt like I was coming into TV studios

and then I ended up breastfeeding on TV, but it was like the opposite of what I wanted. And I remember being like, I don't wanna be seen as actually the mom, I just wanna be me, but had this child that couldn't be fed any other way. And then it would be all this like attention seeking. And I was like, I just love for people to know

at no point in my life, whether I was 14 or now now at 37 do I want people to look at my boobs yeah I don't want attention I really really would just love to exist and for people to listen to what I say and not how I look there's a real push isn't that a label mm-hmm and label people but label women in particular so again I sympathize a great deal and empathise with a lot of what you're saying. I'm also a big-breasted woman. I've also been very labelled as well in my life for you know being in heterosexual relationships, having a lesbian relationship, back in a heterosexual relationship and people just want to go well what are you? Are you a bisexual?

What are you? And it's like I don't want to, I'm just me actually actually. I'm just me, and I want to be known for that. So I completely hear what you're saying about, you're never gonna get it right. If you are breastfeeding on television because your son needs to be breastfed, that's gonna be the wrong thing in some people's eyes. You're never gonna win. So you're saying, I just wanna be me,

and I just want to be accepted for who I am. And also I feel so sad like the amount of women who contact me saying oh I would love to wear that but I end up wearing clothes I don't really like because I don't want people to look at my boobs and it's like isn't that so sad that as women and as grown women people feel like they can't wear certain things because they don't want people to assume that their morality or their sexuality is based on their body type. We don't want to be judged because exactly because automatically you're judged for flaunting it or being you know inverted comma some kind of a whore and that you've asked for it. It's totally that like if you try and like you know at school when I tried to

like kind of dress in a way that I wouldn't have attention on me, I remember being called like prudish. I remember my mum being like, even I don't wear these clothes. And I do feel like you just you literally cannot win. So I kind of have this, I am not the issue society is the hypersexualization of the female body is so that is not my problem. What was the whole thing about the lilac suit when that all kicked off last year? So I found it like this perfect irony.

So I went onto this morning, I wore this like what I thought was amazing suit, Nadine Marabi and it was- She does great stuff. Bear in mind, my daughter's one, so I was still very much in that kind of postpartum period where your old clothes don't fit, your boobs are like five times bigger than they used to be.

You don't really know who you are anymore. You're not sleeping. You're suddenly having to put together outfits for television. So I just wear things that I liked or that I'd be sent. And obviously that I liked, but it was just it's a very confusing period of time for anyone. So I saw this amazing purple suit. I thought, yeah, that looks really cool.

I want to wear that for TV. Did it fit? And what was the other thought that came to my mind? Will there be a bra that I can wear with it that doesn't show? So I got a new bra and I was like, perfect. And when I came off air, everyone was commenting on my cleavage, but ironically, we'd been talking about Hannah Waddingham being objectified in the press and someone being like one of the paps like get your legs out and I did this whole Speech about the objectification and the sexualization of women and I was like we have had enough And then I came off air and it was like if she wants to be taken seriously She should put a cleavage away

And I was just like isn't this so mad that when I'm talking about how women don't want that people to sexualize their bodies That I am then getting the same criticism that I'm trying to defend. And from women or from both from men and women? Men are more like I feel like men's it's more like oh she's just a bimbo no one cares about her or if she doesn't like it she should put it away and from women it's a slightly more like like your morals are linked like well if she wants to be respectable she shouldn't wear that. Then she should dress accordingly. Gosh isn't it interesting that again you're never going to get it right within society.

So your passion and your outspokenness around the sexualisation and objectification of women, how much of that has also been informed by your trauma of going through childbirth? Oh, massively. I feel like it's made me much more aware of it and much more determined to fight against it because I feel like, you know, whether it was the things that I was dealing with

postnatally like piles and prolapse, mastitis, all of the things that I have been struggling with, I feel like you're kind of, we're never gonna progress medically because there's so much shame and taboo around it. And it's almost because it's not very pleasing for people to know about piles or prolapse. And even, you know, I breastfed both my kids

and I felt like even the fact that there is debate about whether or not it's acceptable to breastfeed in public still now, and it's like that is Food, I mean arguably that's probably the reason that nature gave us boobs So whether or not you breastfeed or not, I don't really mind but the fact that it can be debated whether it's appropriate to breastfeed Is just maddening and that's the word isn't it? Appropriate that we're still silencing women around debates like this and making them feel uncomfortable for doing it when actually we should be supporting it. Well interestingly you posted a really lovely video of yourself recently on Instagram in a bikini,

post baby bod, reminding everybody that this is what a woman's body actually looks like. So you had your hairy armpits, your snail trail, you were saying, this is just who I am. And this is what's normal and rightly so. But when you do that, do you still have to sort of gear yourself up for I'm gonna get trolled? Or do people actually applaud you for doing that? I think I'd rather be trolled for being myself

and for being real than for trying to be perfect. Cause you're gonna get trolled one way or the other. And I feel like I spent so much of my 20s trying so hard for people to like me, especially in environments like Maiden Chelsea, I literally almost killed myself trying to get people to like me. And people didn't like me anyway. Yeah, it's pretty awful.

So now I kind of have this attitude of like, the more I open up and I'm vulnerable, actually, the more like minded people that I get and that's both on and offline. So that's in terms of friendships. But that's also, you know, when I talked about getting prolapse and getting piles and all of these taboo topics online, I actually find an army of women who are like, oh, I've actually lived with this for 20 years. I thought it was normal.

And that's so much more powerful for me than to do pictures. I'm sure I could, sure I've still got it in me that if I wanted to do all these like, look at me and how attractive I am in a bikini and performing for the male gaze, I'm sure I could do it. But it's like, but everything I try and do is to try and like push society forward and to challenge. And I suppose as well, like like for that me in my teens and

in my 20s like who who do I want to be for that person and for my daughter I was just gonna say I mean now that you've got a little girl as well what do you think needs to change so that she doesn't have to face the issues that that you and I have been through I mean everything needs to change if anything I feel like are we going backwards do you think do you think that mm-hmm I mean, everything needs to change. If anything, I feel like are we going backwards? Do you think that? I mean, we've just, not we, but we've just elected a president of America who's essentially a convicted sexual abuser.

Even just if you don't even look at what he has or hasn't done, even his use of language, you know, the reversal of Roe versus Wade. You've got Nigel Farage starting to talk about reproductive rights in the UK. You've got the Chinese, I don't know if he's president or prime minister talking about banning women from having babies after the age of 25,

hoping that that will pressure people into having babies, more of them and younger. I feel like the whole narrative of women and our rights, even like the Giselle Pelico case, the fact that recently it came out that German police uncovered these telegram web chats where people are talking about rape, which had like 70,000 men in.

We currently, I can't even remember the statistics on how many women are dying at the hands of a man. I think one woman every three days dying and that's in the UK. I feel like rape cases have basically like got 1% conviction rate. Yeah, I feel like, you know, the Taliban, what's happening to women in Afghanistan,

you've got the age of consent in Iraq that's just been put down from something like 18 to nine. I feel like all around the world, our rights are sort of under attack. Even yesterday or the day before Mark Zuckerberg Saying that you can now call women property and there's going to be no Community notes saying that there's not enough masculine energy in workplaces anymore the rise of Andrew Tate You know, I feel like someone like Andrew Tate wouldn't have been around

20 years ago when I was at school No, I think that that's that's very true. So we're going backwards again in terms of oppression, misogyny, hatred. The glorification of the like 1950s housewife, you know the rise of the trad wives and we're kind of glamorizing history without remembering that that was a time that men could rape their wives. You know I feel like yeah I really worry and not only for my daughter I worry about for my son you know I feel like yeah I really worry and not only for my daughter I worry about for my son you know that I can only parent him so much but ultimately he's gonna go into a world of the internet and I can't stop him finding

Andrew Tate or yeah yeah I think it's a really scary time to be a woman but especially to be raising the next generation. Okay, let's take a quick break here but don't go anywhere please Ashley because in a moment I'm gonna ask you to pick a question from my little box of truth. The rules are that you pick a random card, you've got to answer honestly and that is it basically and I've got a feeling that you're going to be absolutely fine. Who wants this last parachute? I do. Enjoy the number one feeling. Winning in an exciting live dealer studio, exclusively on FanDuel Casino, where winning is undefeated.

19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit kinexontario.ca. Please play responsibly. A-Cast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. On a cool cloudy January morning in 2022, Ian Indredson makes himself some eggs, plays with his dog, walks out the door of his waterfront home and disappears. The 54 year old senior government spokesperson is a gifted writer.

He lives a life of some privilege and comfort with his wife, Gloria and their beloved black lab Willow. So what happened to Ian? I'm veteran journalist, Laura Palmer, and this is Island crime season seven evaporated. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com Welcome back to It Can't Just Be Me and I'm here with the fabulous Ashley James and it's time for the It Can't Just Be Me box of truth. The moment when guests start to become a little bit uncomfortable but actually given that what we've been talking about I think that there's nothing that would make you feel

uncomfortable. Ashley in front of you you've got a box of cards containing random personal questions. All you need to do is just have a riffle around inside it, pick a card at random, read out the question, answer it. Okay, this is a good one, I think. In what ways are you peculiar around money? Oh, that's a great one. That is a great one, given that you've done Maine and Chelsea, you went to posh boarding school.

Brilliant. go on. I always have quite a, I mean I'm terrible with money and I always have been but I What do you mean by that when you say I'm terrible with money, always have been, what does that look like? I don't know what to do with money in every sense of the word. Apart from spend it or? Yeah, spend it, not know where to put it. So you're just not financially savvy that I'm not great at investing and saving. Yeah, and I think I've always had the attitude that I'm gonna struggle financially. And so even though I'm doing better now

than I probably ever imagined, I still have this idea that it's gonna run out. And I think because when I was younger, my parents would always be talking about money and how we didn't have much money. And yeah, I have this real like weirdness around money that I'm like, is everything gonna stop? And I need to do this and can I afford this?

And can I not afford this? But then because I think I have so much anxiety around money, I'll also like just impulsively spend because I'm like, oh, well, it's stressful anyway. Yeah, so let's get rid of it. Yeah, so I have like a really weird thing around money and every year I'm like, I'm going to try and be better with money in every sense.

And I mean, I've got a good accountant now, that was last year's thing, but you know, just, yeah, I have no matter how well I do, I always feel like, well, it's just temporary. But then, as you say, that makes perfect sense because we are informed by our childhoods, we are informed by our own parents' attitude to money, as you've said, and if you came from a family where money was tight and it was always talked about, then of course you're going to be influenced about that. And not only that, you're a freelance. So there's always that fear of like, oh my god, when's the next contract, is this going to run out?

I totally can understand that. And my parents are so like good with money to the point that, I mean, my mum would take me to about three different supermarkets, because if you can save one pence on a pint of milk down the road, we'd go down the road. So I think I almost rebelled against that, that it was like, so controlled. I was like, I can't handle it. I'm going to Waitrose every day, mother. Or like, I'm going to spend all my money. Like, so, you know, especially when I was single, I was like going on these amazing, like traveling around the world every other month. So I'd kind of work to spend

Because I'm yeah, so I've never liked being much of a light forward planner with money. You're savvier now with money Yeah, I told Martin Lewis he was in this morning the other day and I was like you've really inspired me to get pension And he was like, how do you why haven't you got a pension yet? And I was like listen, it's better to start He was like, okay. Yeah, maybe start five years ago. No, he was really nice Thanks Martin, but all of the you know, just all the things that my partner's really good I was like, listen, it's better to start. And he was like, okay, yeah, maybe start five years ago. No, he was really nice. Thanks, Martin. But all of the, you know, just all the things that my partner's really good with money.

And I think having kids, you do start to think a bit more about the future maybe than I did. I very much had an attitude of like, well, I'd rather die doing what I love and not waiting for something that might not ever happen, but I'm trying to be much better now. Also, I kind of resent that you don't get, really get taught about it at school.

Yeah, that's true. Like, why do I know about osmosis, but not about getting a mortgage? I feel like they want us to be poor. They want us to be bad with money. And on that bombshell, why do I know about osmosis, but I don't know about a mortgage Ashley it has been such a pleasure to have you in today thank you so much honestly thank you it's been really

inspirational to listen to you it's been thought-provoking it's been insightful as well and I thank you very much always for your honesty and listen you go girl because I love a strong woman and I applaud you every step of the way. So thank you very much for being here. Thank you so much. Thank you. Just before you go, because I know there's going to be so many people listening to this, he'll be cheering you on as well. What one piece of advice would you like to leave us with before you leave?

I think don't worry about what other people think of you, because actually unhappy people are always going to judge people and that's what it is and as I kind of touched on earlier I'd rather be disliked for being myself than liked for being someone else. So yeah just have the confidence to be yourself because in a bit of a cliche way we only have one life so we may as well be who we want to be. That's it for today, but I'll be back next week with a brand new episode of It Can't Just Be Me. But in the meantime, I also want to hear from you, because this Friday you can hear the next episode of It's Not Just You.

In these Friday episodes I'll be joined by different experts each week and we'll be answering your dilemmas. So please, if there's something you want to talk about, whether it's big or small, funny or serious, get in touch with us. You can DM me or email us hello at itcan'tjustbeme.co.uk And if you want to see more of the show, remember, you can find us on Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook. Just search, Frick Can't Just Be Me,

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