It Could Happen Here - A Forest Defense In Ghent

Episode Date: August 13, 2024

James is joined by Mick (@twosoberpossum) to discuss the activists and community groups coming together to protect an endangered forest in the middle of Ghent, the third largest city in Belgium.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline Podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into Tech's elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech brought to you by an industry veteran with nothing to lose. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts from. on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts from. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, five-year-old Cuban boy Elian Gonzalez was found off the coast of Florida. And the question was, should the boy go back to his father in Cuba? Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or stay with his relatives in Miami.

Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Call Zone Media. Hi, and welcome to the podcast. call zone media hi and welcome to the podcast it's me james and today i am joined by mick mick's been doing some reporting on a forest occupation in hint which is a place i used to live actually mick would you like to introduce yourself and sort of explain a little bit about what you've been doing of course hi i'm mick i am incidentally reporting on stuff and i thought this was a pretty neat thing to report on that i think people should know more about and it's also kind of a fun thing so yeah it's uh

very accessible for people like if you want to do like little little forest occupying over the summer this is one that you can do pretty easily yeah yeah you can skip your like european festival season and just go help at a forest occupation which is uh cheaper and much more memorable yeah you can god they used to have one of those near the little town i lived in when i was racing in belgium and uh it was it was a scene yeah just lovely times yeah great times we should maybe explain like a little bit about Hunt as a city, because I think if people have seen it or they've maybe visited, like they've been to the middle of town, right?

And they've seen the castle and the waterhouse bar or whatever, and they've eaten one of those sugar noses. But like they may not have seen the whole city. So like, can you sort of characterize the city? Of course, it's very diverse in the sense that the scenery changes a lot you've got some of these like really old buildings that are just like speaking to your imagination

but then there's also almost like concrete deserts yeah i would almost call them where like the view on the street is just an incredible amount of gray in varying colors yeah that means it was a beautiful city i don't mean to trash talk shanty or at all but at times it's just really gray yeah yeah i've lots of memories of springtime in flanders and like gray sky and gray buildings and gray roads and uh yeah but also some very beautiful areas so yeah why don't you uh go ahead and explain to us a little bit about this forest occupation okay it's uh an occupation that's happening to a little north of the city center in terms of forest occupations it's remarkably accessible so it's called the Wondelhemse Meersen or ponds for you english speakers out there and it's part of an industrial area called

the Wiedaukai which is located just west of the canal De Lieve which connects the port of Gent the third largest port in Belgium the area itself is about 14 to 15 hectares I'm not sure how to translate that to US numbers I'm sorry yeah. Yeah, neither am I. I'm terrible at American. Doesn't matter. There's internet. Yeah. And the area has largely been left to its own for a pretty significant amount of time. Past 20 years.

Now there's two areas within the pond, as I'm going to call them. A northern part and a southern part. And later down the line, I'll explain why that is important. Before I continue further on to highlight, I went there mainly as a form of solidarity and support. I had asked if people would be willing to talk to me about in a journalistic or reporting capacity, and they agreed to that. But I'm not a local and i also don't want to pretend i am although any listener will hear my accent and know that so yeah we'll be mainly talking about the southern area and there's destination plans for this area there's essentially

two parties that are working together to turn these green areas into the grey concrete deserts that we just talked about. These parties are the municipality of Ghent and De Lijn, a government organization that handles public transport in Flanders. So over the years, there have been several plans to build or develop the ponds. But up until last week, we're recording this in the week of August 8th. But up until last week we're recording this in the week of august 8th but up until last week no permits were issued to actually finalize or realize these plans the northern part was supposed to be turned into a sort of training area for for bus drivers while the southern part is intended to be a parking lot for public transport buses the activists currently residing in the forests are by no means against the idea of public transport but do think that the destruction of this piece

of nature is counterproductive for both the locals and for climate change reasons there is enough concrete in the city already and they argue that alternative solutions have not been given the attention they deserve yeah it seems like it wouldn't be hard to find, I think, did they call it a brownfield site, like a former industrial site in that area of Flanders, to redevelop an old factory or a warehouse complex or something to do this rather than taking one of the green spaces and destroying it and paving it over, you know?

I don't know what the municipality was thinking but i'm sure there is like barren areas elsewhere that can just as easily be repurposed in a way that doesn't like destroy nature so the part that was most surprising to me and at the same time not at all is how this is being played out politically. To give everyone a quick timeline, about 20 years ago, the municipality designated these two zones that I talked about as to be used for common use. Algemeen net for those speaking Dutch or Flemish. Well, at the same time, the ground was being bought by the public transport company, De Lijn. Plans for development started. There is even like an unused tram bridge just outside the green zone and the occupation.

But for one reason or another, the permit to build on the ground itself had expired, during which time nature took it upon herself to reclaim the area. Now what I mentioned earlier is this difference between the north and the south part. These are separated by train tracks making a very clear distinction between the two areas. The line originally wanted to use the north part to make a sort of training area as I just said but these plans never materialized. At the same time about three years ago another action group prevented the destruction of the northern part now this is where i find it really interesting the terrain is still owned by the line and the municipality but they intend to give custody to a local environmental group called a naturopunt but only if the plans for the southern part where there is an occupation right now are completed yes yes interesting yeah while i was talking to my source i was uh reading between the lines there

as a sort of an attempt to play these multiple environmental organizations against each other a sort of divide and conquer yeah very nefarious when i asked my source about that they said that it was up to me whether or not i would call it that but that the existence of these plans is just a reality now i will not claim probably for legal reasons that there is definitely some attempt to set these parties up against each other that there is definitely some attempt to set these parties up against each other but from the information that i have like if i were a betting man i i'd know where i'd put my money yeah that's really interesting so like nature punt is not present in the forest occupation on the southern side is that right uh not that i'm aware of and so they'd stand to like they'd gain

custody of the northern side of the people on the southern side failed exactly yeah and how nefarious exactly and if the southern side now succeeds in uh preventing like the tearing down of the trees then the northern side could become you know threatened again and then this whole circus starts all over again right yes so both of them have like a vested interest in in one of these well in theory they the municipality would maybe would like them to think that both of them have an interest in in the paving over of one of these areas but exactly like someone has to lose in this equation and i find it interesting that it that it's happened that it's happening like this especially because hand kind of promotes itself on these green zones that are mixed throughout the city and that are then

again accessible for people by bike or for running or walking and then in that same breath there's also still the oh yeah one of these pieces of nature we need to tear down because we need more concrete yeah those two views just don't align right and like we said there's no shortage of concrete like this is uh like a very sort of post-industrial area it's not like this is like a public facing thing that needs to be in one area to be accessible to people right like they could store the their buses train their bus drivers you know somewhere else in flanders it's uh it's not like it needs to be right in town now i'm certain there are other areas where you could just as easily make a parking lot for buses yeah as for like a training grounds i'm not sure how that would work but then again there i think there's roads enough in the city for people to practice. Even industrial areas tend not to have very much traffic.

So that could still work without having to, again, get rid of a piece of forest just so people can drive around in buses. But again, this is not an argument against public transport, more in the hypocrisy and senselessness of the plans that are on the table right now yeah and kind of trying to make people choose between two things when they should be perfectly possible to have both right exactly i'm guessing it would also be more cost effective if you take some other parts because i'll dive into that later but there's also like pollution in these areas that needs to be taken care of. So just from a cost effective standpoint, I think there should be alternative options that will keep everyone happier. Yeah. So yeah. Describe to me your visit there,

like describe how it was and what you witnessed there. Okay. Well, uh, I went there at the end of july i stayed a few days and it was really weird because you're coming from again a tram stop then you have to walk for a bit and all of a sudden it's like you're in a forest it was it was really surreal almost to know that you're in the middle of a big city but also have that kind of like isolation from the sounds of traffic yeah i mean that's lovely right it's nice that that's that's available at least for now oh yeah i understand 100 why people want to keep that green space close to their homes yeah so the ponds are a mix of terrain like There's water-hungry, swampy areas when the rain has been falling. There's lush grass fields with little, curvy, impromptu paths to take.

And there's some parts where the trees have been growing for long enough that people can now build tree houses in them, which to me is quite a good indicator that not much development or care has been done in this terrain there's an absolutely insane amount of blackberry bushes much to my delight and yeah it's just for an area that is relatively small but in the bigger picture it just surprised me how many different faces it has. It was a delight to be there. Locals from Ghent tend to use the area for walks or picnics or to take their dogs out. I've seen multiple people stopping by just to pick the blackberries. The city itself calls this entire area a green zone

and a climate access. Dare words. What Ghent has done is trying to create like a network of zones and roads that are accessible by car, but not so much that there is a lot of traffic on these roads, which makes them ideal for cycling, running, recreation, or even transport, if you would so choose. The website of Kent itself promotes these areas, is good for the flora and fauna, for the environment, and subsequentlyuna for the environment and subsequently for residents then you need to be thinking of absorption of rainwater or keeping local populations of animals and plants healthy or just the cooling effect that nature has yeah compared to blacktop exactly like fully concrete cities tend to like not really release

their warmth as quickly as nature does it and it was surprising because it was really hot when i was there but in the shade of the trees it was perfectly doable up until the point where you actually exercised and then suddenly it was less cool but different story uh again the website from the municipality itself acknowledges the importance of the area for an endangered species of lizard and the efforts that the city took to make sure that it can still thrive there more concretely one person i spoke to said that there are 39 protected species of plants and animals living there protected under both Flemish and European law. So I'm not really sure why that's discarded into the calculation.

I'm not a municipality person. I don't know. Also, I believe there have been sightings of foxes there, mainly because we were told by the activists not to eat the blackberries that are too close to the ground due to the parasites that foxes may carry and can subsequently infect people with. Oh, wow. Yeah, interesting. You know what else carries parasites, James? Is it the goods and services that we rely on to pay for this podcast?

Exactly. There's a 50% chance that these products and services will give you one or another incurable parasite wonderful hey guys i'm kate max you might know me from my popular online series the running interview show where i run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories,

their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. You know that rush of endorphins you feel after a great workout? Well, that's when the real magic happens. So if you love hearing real, inspiring stories from the people you know, follow, and admire, join me every week for Post Run High. It's where we take the conversation beyond the run and get into the heart of it all. It's lighthearted, pretty crazy, and very fun. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how Tech's elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel winning economists to leading journalists in the field. And I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if

we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh.

And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story

is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzales wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. And Vic, you mentioned that there was a problem with pollution in the uh wilderness space can you can you explain like what what kind of pollution that entails of course in the past there has been like a pollution of both the groundwater and the soil in and of itself that's not that remarkable i've been told by someone that Flanders has multiple spots where you can come into contact with different forms of pollution. In the ponds, there is both pollution in the soil and in the groundwater. The soil itself contains asbestos, although it should be noted that that is within

the acceptable regulatory norms. As a refresher for listeners, asbestos danger lies mainly in the breaking or fracturing of the material and the fibers that release through that process is what makes asbestos so hazardous. An effective way to mitigate this is to make sure that these fibers do not get into the air for which water tends to work wonders. So at least in terms of asbestos it seems very simple and cost-effective to just leave it undisturbed because it's already an area that likes to swallow up water which then will isolate the asbestos from the air and thus you know make it less harmful yeah the water is contaminated with vocis that's an acronym for a variety of volatile organic compounds with some chlorine attached to it. I don't know. I'm not a chemist. These chemicals have several uses

and applications in a variety of industry. One of my sources told me that the specific chemical is 1.4-dioxane, which is used as a solvent. It's not the type of stuff you want to drink or inhale, but serious exposure from contaminated soil or water is pretty rare from what I've read. As my source pointed out, the contaminants in the water will over time degrade organically. A process called phytoremediation, where the presence of plants and microorganisms and fungi will degrade the material and reduce the toxicity while reading into this i found that the same is true to an extent for asbestos which can be a source of like inorganic nutrients for these microorganisms so while you could point out that phytoremediation is a longer process than sanitation. I personally think

that it's just common sense that letting nature do its work undisturbed might be significantly cheaper and more sustainable compared to putting additional chemicals and substances in the ground to neutralize these VOCIs. Also just a fun little side quest here but in order to monitor the area the line employed a concierge to walk the terrain on a daily basis i'm unsure if you can spot upcoming or emerging contamination with the naked eye but not my money that they used to pay the guy so this guy just his job was to walk around the pond yeah pretty much i'm told he had like a little hut or a little uh shack from from which he worked the guy was still working there at the time the activists moved in but you know the shack is gone and so is the concierge i'm not sure about

the details of what happened there yeah but uh what i do find extremely funny is that now officials and spokespersons from uh the development side are claiming that the area is dangerous and that it is for their own well-being that the activists leave as soon as possible which doesn't really make sense to me like either this argument is like incredibly disingenuous or they fucked over someone by paying them to take this incredibly risky job of walking over contaminated terrain yeah and not to mention like all the uh people who they're allowed to walk their dogs and click blackberries there and things exactly um if it was that dangerous that people should not be there

then i'm fairly certain they could muster better fences than they did at the moment. Like, I'm not sure on the fence economy in the broader sense, but there should at least have been signs on the fences. Yeah. And there were none. So, yeah, we're getting to the activist groups. The group that is currently occupying the trees is an assembly of people who care deeply about the area itself. I spoke on the record with one of them, and I would like to play this clip to let them introduce themselves. I'm Arvid, I'm one of the activists of the Wondermeers occupation, which we occupied since the 20th of June.

And we occupied this because it's endangered, since the LEN, which is the public transport company in Flanders, wants to destroy these 15 hectares of nature for building a bus depot, so like a parking for buses. Okay. Do you want to tell us about what what you you and the group of activists have done here um yeah so we live in the trees as much as possible and we we sleep there

to make an eviction harder and to have more uh power in our in our action like it's way more difficult for them to get us out if we are on height and use other tactics to to block them and they also cannot start cutting trees when we are in in the trees how is that for you it's intense always in the key base of course but also places of where yeah very experiment with living together and everyone is welcome there are no doorbells, no walls. Forests are a very open place where everyone can just come in and feel like they are welcome. And it's not owned by someone. It doesn't feel like it's belonging to someone which you can easily have with a house, I think. But here there is all the space to make make stuff, to live to take time for yourself

which make it very healthy I think to live here by being in nature people are just more happy I think in general than in the city and in the house and yeah we are mainly building tree houses

as you can hear maybe probably so as you've heard that was arvid one of the activists that i spoke to as you've also probably heard that is that there's construction going on in the trees um yeah there's multiple tree houses there at the moment. And that's where they sleep. When I spoke further to Arvid, he made clear the demands that the activists have, which is mainly that they don't want the needless destruction of this area. Their intention is to remain in the trees and make it hard, if not impossible, for the trees to be felled.

There are multiple tree houses with enough stability and space for multiple people. On top of that, they are preparing for a possible eviction, all while also living happily and communally. Like every night they cook together, they're having dinner together. I found it incredibly healing and wholesome to just have a meal around a small fire with a group of like-minded people people not hearing traffic or other urban noises a bright spot was one evening where someone played a dutch protest song just on the guitar satirizing an unnamed u.s president for his role in the vietnam war which can't escape u.s politics even in the middle of a forest.

So then I would like to play a second clip. And do you want to talk about how your relationship is with the neighbors around here? Yeah, the neighbors, they started their own action committee for more than three years ago I think and they have already saved one piece of the Wollongong Mesa which is on the north part of the train rail so this one is now safe it's only three hectares but it was also the land that wanted to destroy it for making a place to practice to drive with the bus. Like a training ground

for bus drivers. Exactly. So just put concrete on this swampy area to then once in a while drive for the bus there as if there is no other concrete in the city to practice driving with the bus. But this is now saved, and now the neighbors are also for this big piece of the Woonhamsemeer, they are now going to start a court case against the decision,

because the ministry of Zuladamir, the ministry of environment, because the ministry of the ministry of environment they approved the permits for the stout plates for the bus depot ok that was yesterday that was announced

how are you feeling right now do you have any plans on how to continue the fight against the bulldozing of this place? Yeah, we are not surprised that she approved it. We saw it coming a bit. But it's just very ridiculous and we will keep fighting, of course,

because this is very hypocrite in saying that we have to save nature, but in the meantime she approves decisions to destroy them, this kind of nature. So we just continue the fight, and the neighbors do it with the court case. We stay here, and we keep building and prepare for an eviction that's really interesting that diversity of tactics that cooperation i think is really valuable in these kind of struggles can you explain a little bit more about that like how that works well i think it was just uh the stars that aligned for this particular goal. There is a neighborhood committee that's also heavily opposed to the destruction of this area. But it's mainly a neighborhood committee.

These are people who will stand up to the municipality, but entirely through the legal system or the judicial system. entirely through the legal system or the judicial system. And I think this committee was like at least a year or two, maybe even more old before the occupation happened. And the occupation also happens separately from the committee. So you kind of have this, this, you know, alliance now between like a group of people who will take more direct action against

the plans to destroy the place. And this group who is going to do that by filing court cases against the plans that the land and the municipality are trying to realize right now. It's really funny always, because one of my sources said the people who are occupying the forest came down like angels. The activists really don't like to be called that, but it's sort of, yeah, just they have a common goal. And for that, they're working together. And from what I've seen, there is very warm and friendly contact between the groups. I've seen multiple neighbors come by with like food or building materials like think

of screws or nails or like wooden beams for construction i think there was one person who like every sunday brings pancakes i'm not sure if they still do that but that's pretty cool yeah exactly um i've seen people come by and drop off bags of dried beans and lentils. I think it's really fascinating how organically these two groups sort of come together in their common goal, but also that the two different strategies kind of strengthen each other. Right. Yeah, obviously you've got people who wouldn't think of occupying forests but then they find themselves like in in solidarity with the people who do and i think that's really cool that like you said there was no prior communication right these folks just arrived began the occupation

and and the locals were like yes this is exactly what we needed thank you insofar as i understood it that's how it happened as i said earlier like the combination of text tactics just make their path towards their goal so much more tangible because by occupying the forest they can't start like early construction in the area or i know some municipalities or cities kind of begin with the destruction prior to having permission. But then it's like, oh, yeah, we've already started. So it's of no use anymore. Which I'm not sure how common it is in other countries.

But I've heard of that within activist circles in the Netherlands. And all the while this committee is like doing the court cases and filing legal motions and yeah i think i think it's a really warm and friendly contact yeah that's what's kind of nice to see exactly okay i have one other clip how does it make you feel that the neighbors are so supportive as you said they're bringing food on a regular basis and I've seen I think a few who brought materials even like screws or nails yeah what does that do with your morale or your motivation yeah I think we wouldn't really be here if they would be pro the bus depot but of course they are not because it's just a very stupid idea to destroy this valuable nature for it but yeah we

we help each other a lot and we yeah we keep each other strong by supporting each other and they were very moved by us being here and and even caught as their angels which we don't like to be caught anyway um yeah that's it okay yeah is there anything else you would like to share or to have on the record? Yeah, we would like to invite everyone to come here. There's more info on wandelmeersen.noblogs.org. And, yeah, there will still be the whole court case, so there is a chance we stay longer,

but they also have the legal rights to evict us, which we also be paying for, but yeah. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. You know that rush of endorphins you feel after a great workout? Well, that's when the real magic happens. So if you love hearing real, inspiring stories from the people you know,

follow, and admire, join me every week for Post Run High. It's where we take the conversation beyond the run and get into the heart of it all. It's lighthearted, pretty crazy, and very fun. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zetron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how tech's elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search,

Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology.

I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. at betteroffline.com. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999,

a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez.

Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him.

Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Obviously, people who listen to the show will be familiar with forest occupations in Atlanta, right? What's the state response to this look like?

For a long time, there has been very little state response. While I was there, the permit to develop the area was granted but for the most part there's occasional a car that drives by i did receive word that a few days ago a few cops came in onto the terrain uh took pictures of everything and the next morning there was a drone flying over the camp yeah yes um so things are like tensing up a bit and we'll have to see how we'll have to see how it goes obviously like the case is still like in the judicial so we'll have to see what comes from that but up until now things have been quiet and peaceful okay yeah because yeah. Because I think people sometimes, obviously, make the US really strive to lead the world in police violence.

But I think sometimes people underestimate the capacity of European states for state violence. That's definitely true. Our lack of guns makes it that not many people are getting shot by police. But against activists or protests, police can be pretty violent. I don't have much experience with Belgian police myself. I've heard conflicting stories about them. I was at the May 1st celebration in Brussels.

We came incredibly prepared and then it was all okay. Literally nothing noteworthy to mention um but then when i speak to other people i hear like oh you know belgian police worse than the dutch but then that very also varies from city to city and that's a whole another rabbit hole to go down into yeah so for now not much police action against the activists. Not sure if or when that will change. Right. So if people wanted to, they said everyone was welcome. Yes.

And I presume they can drop in for the day or they can go and stay for a period. Or they can commit staying until the forest is safe. Is it easy to access? Can you walk there? Could you like, I guess ironically walk there could you like i didn't take it i guess ironically maybe could you take a bus and uh there is a tram that stops pretty close by they have an instagram account that i don't know from the top of my head because i don't use instagram we'll link it in the notes i think if you just search for like a womble me so womble hamster mason

you'll find something uh you can contact them there and they can give you more details on how exactly to get there yeah you can come by for a day you can come by for two weeks that's up to you you're welcome there what i would like to urge everyone is if you plan on going there contact them about the supplies they need when i arrived there i got some like some small kitchen knives and like literally for cutting veggies and some canned foods and some first aid supplies because it is largely donation based what they're doing there so yeah i need anything that you can spare or can purchase for them would be greatly appreciated. Check the website, check their Instagram.

There might be a Facebook page. I think there is a Facebook page for those still using Facebook. So yeah, I would recommend it. Like go over there, help out. They're very friendly people. If you're interested in doing something like this, this is like a very entry-level thing. Yeah. Like you said, it's not just like a good thing to do.

It's also a nice, fun thing to do. Like it's, these spaces could be really healing. Like just being among like-minded people, like you said, and in nature. Exactly. And like when I was there, they gave like a climbing workshop. So they taught me how i should climb a tree with like gear around my waist and everything and it's cool yeah and follow the

agreements that people make between each other besides that there's not really any rules you're free to come for a day you're free to stay for two weeks that's entirely up to you just it's nice to help out and even if it's just help with cutting vegetables for dinner yeah that's already incredibly appreciated and in the meantime people can do other stuff that needs to happen around the camp and yeah in terms of activism this is a small step to do but it can also just be a really good experience for years uh for you and all the while helping the locals and helping the activists which is the sort of mutual aids that i would prefer to see a lot more yeah yeah i think it's great that it's integrated with the community and i think it's great that it's it's accessible for people and like hopefully folks will go bring

something that they need it's cool that they can you hopefully folks will go bring something that they need it's cool that they can you know share skills i've learned a lot in different activist spaces i think that's really cool uh mick is is there anywhere that people can follow you if they'd like to uh yes i have a twitter account now because i don't see enough horrible shit um it's at two sober possums or under the name mick smith m-i-c-k-s-m-i-t i don't think i've posted anything yet so i'll think of something funny but feel free to reach out there if for reasons yeah i'm cool with that great well thank you very much that was i think that's really interesting i hope people will go if. If you go, you know, send us a little message. Let us know how your experience was in the forest.

I'd love that. It would make me happy. Likewise. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities,

athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and, at times, unhinged look at the underbelly of tech brought to you by an industry veteran with nothing to lose. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts from.

On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, five-year-old Cuban boy Elian Gonzalez was found off the coast of Florida. And the question was, should the boy go back to his father in Cuba? Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or stay with his relatives in Miami? Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.