It Could Happen Here - A Medical Perspective On Protest Safety

Episode Date: June 23, 2025

In a rare ICHH and House of Pod Joint Episode, James is joined by Miriam, Kaveh, and Dr. Richard Ferro to discuss street medicine, police use of irritants and less-than-lethal weapons and how to keep each other safe.Links: https://lapdonlinestrgeacc.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/lapdonlinemedia/2021/12/Directive_17.1_40mm_Less_Lethal_Launcher_Oct-.pdf https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1310-live-like-the-world-is-dy-85677729/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. I'm Robert Evans and on my show Behind the Bastards this week, we have one of our worst subjects ever, David Byrd, founder of the Children of God cult, who we'll be talking about with special guest Ed Helms. He's not just like a weird religious cult leader. He was like fusing a bunch of hippie ideology in with this kind of like evangelical Christianity, Pentecostal preaching in the mid-century is a very weird guy. But yeah, I'll just get into it. Like nothing you just said makes sense. That doesn't say. But that's the beauty of cults.

Listen to Behind the Bastards on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Open AI is a financial abomination, a thing that should not be, an aberration, a symbol podcasts. with the greatest minds in the industry about all the other ways the rich and powerful are ruining the computer. Listen to better offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, wherever you happen to get your podcasts. I know a lot of cops. They get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. This is Absolute Season One, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. Listen to Absolute Season One,

Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jeff Perlman. And I'm Rick Jervis. We're journalists and hosts of the podcast, Finding Sexy Sweat. At an internship in 1993, we roomed with Reggie Payne, aspiring reporter and rapper who went by Sexy Sweat. A couple years ago, we set out to find him. But in 2020, Reggie fell into a coma after police pinned him down and he never woke up. Well, then I see my son's not moving. So we started digging and uncovered city officials bent on protecting their own.

Listen to Finding Sexy Sweat on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Cool Zone Media. Sometimes there is a topic that is too big for just one podcaster. Sometimes a simple medical podcaster, a simple wartime journalist, can't handle a topic on their own. They need to combine forces. A special team up has to happen. And that my friends is what's happening today

on this special crossover edition of the House of Pod. And it could happen here in HOP, ICH, HH, Hoppich special, myself, Dr. Kaveh Hoda, hope I'm saying that correctly. And James Stout are gonna be talking to you along with two very special guests about what's happening out there in the protest, what risks the protesters are facing, what health concerns we have for them,

how they can best prepare and more. James, hey buddy. Hey, it's nice to be podcasting with you again. You really enjoy our team ups here, our special Marvel team ups that we do. It's a fun one. You're my favorite collaborator, Carvey. Hey, I'm gonna take that as total sincerity, even though I'm not entirely sure.

So I thank you for that. Yeah, because I think that sounded sincere enough. I like these. I like it. Like me too. I do too. Let's introduce our guests. We have some very special guests. I will actually ask you guys to introduce yourselves. Let's start with you, Miriam.

Can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what your background in this field is? Sure. Hi, I'm Miriam. I use she or they pronouns. My background in the field of podcasting is that I'm with the collective Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, which puts out the podcast, Live Like the World is Dying, as well as the podcast Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness and The Spectacle. And my experience in the field of what I think we're here to talk about today is that I've been a street medic for over a decade, which means I've treated a lot of injuries on people who've been messed up by interactions with police.

I mean, we're going to talk about this more, but my first question is, is it pretty much 90% or more violence from the police that you encounter? Do you ever encounter anything else like violence amongst protesters themselves or something else that happens along the way? Or is it solely what you're experiencing is treating violence from the side of the police? So that's a good question. It is mostly violence from police. Sometimes it is violence from non-state affiliated or at least not on duty fascists. So, you know, you're proud boys, you know, other people like that, or just generally sort of hostile right wing actors. Sometimes it is also, you know, sort of underlying medical stuff more so,

like somebody has been out at the march all day and they didn't bring their medication with them, and so they're having a seizure. And, you know, then there's also environmental stuff, your heat stroke, your hypothermia, your, I was running to catch up with the march and I stepped off the curb, weird, ow, you know, stuff like that. But in terms of violence, yeah, it's mostly coming from the cops. I've certainly never seen a friendly fire incident of violence amongst protesters. I'm sure it could happen, but I have not seen it. I've seen people that I'm in the streets with or wherever with attacked by people who wish them harm who are people from the state or, you know, like I said, not currently on duty as cops, but you know,

basically cops. I know I'm digressing too far and I need to introduce our other guest, but I have another follow up question I need to ask them. So curious, please, have you ever had to take care of say, someone on the other side who's been injured? So as anybody who works in any kind of emergency, you know medical response will tell you anybody who's an EMT Or even anybody who's like a lifeguard The first thing you do before you approach a patient is establish scene safety

So if a Nazi has been hurt It is not safe for me to approach that patient because there's a Nazi over there. I see. Okay. I think I'm picking up what you're putting down on that one. So it has not happened. Yeah. Anybody who is acting as a street medic is acting under what are called good Samaritan laws, you know, which protect you from any kind of bad outcome. If you start taking care of somebody, start helping somebody out in the streets based on whatever training you have.

Same thing, if somebody collapses at a bus stop and you start doing CPR based on the Red Cross class you took, that's Good Samaritan stuff. Same way. It does not obligate you to intervene, especially in approaching somebody who is actively seeking to do you harm. So I would not consider that within my, within my lane. 06.00 Understood. Well, let's introduce our second guest. We have Dr. Richard Farrow, who is a doctor in the Los Angeles area and is a family practice physician. May I call you Richard?

Yeah, you may. Okay, very good. Richard, welcome to the show. Thank you very much, Kave. It's a pleasure to be on. You kind of mentioned it already. I'm Kelly Medicine. I've also had experience in street medicine in the LA area.

Also, this is obviously something that's really important to me right now, given everything that's been going on in the city. And also important for me, just given the fact that I'm a Latino, I'm a proud Costa Rican Cuban, and just that's part of the huge reason why I'm in medicine. So I'm really happy to have an opportunity to talk about, you know, the ICE protests and the stuff that's been going on to protect our community. That's great to hear. Can you tell us a little bit about what you've been involved with recently down in Los Angeles?

So I, as far as what I've been involved in, in Los Angeles, you know, I've been coordinating with some of my colleagues who I knew from residency and just other colleagues just who are all involved in social justice, as well as the CIR, the physicians union, you know, who are engaged in trying to like provide medical support to the protests in the area. So I've had experience working on some of the protests that have occurred both in LA and OC.

Yeah, that's really good to hear. I think people will have been spending a lot of time like watching footage of the protests, right? In the last, I don't know, what, a week in now? Fuck knows. It seems like a long time. I haven't been sleeping very much. Give or take eight to 12 years. Time has meant nothing since March of 2020. Yes, exactly. Yeah, it is.

It's a flat circle. March 16th of 2020, and here we are. People would have seen a lot of people get hurt. Right. And I, like, as a journalist, I think I was in LA last week, you kind of tend to get towards the more violent end of things because that is our job. Most people who go to protests don't get hurt. Right.

And I don't want people to like hear anything we're saying today and think, Oh God, I'm going to get fucked up because most people don't get fucked up. And like my son says that you don't fight fascists because you think you're going to win or you think you might not get hurt. You fight fascists because they are fascists. And sometimes people do get hurt. So let's talk about the ways that people get hurt. Either of you is welcome to answer this, but like, what are some of the common

mechanisms of injury that you see when you are out there street medicking, when the cops are out there hurting people? I would say that like in terms of the things that we would typically see, I just want to start off by saying like absolutely we're not out there just because we know that we're going to be successful in any type of advocacy. If that was the case then we wouldn't have that many people you know on that front. You know a lot of people know that it's you might be losing ground but you're not there because you're trying to win you're doing it because you know that you want to be on the right side of history. You want to do the thing that you believe to be morally right.

As far as like the type of injuries that you would typically see, I think in order to answer this question, I would kind of break it off into two sections. Like you have mainly protests that have not devolved into violent confrontations with law enforcement. And you have protests where things like, for instance, riot control agents have been deployed in the non-dangerous side of things. You might have the kind of stuff that you would encounter in any sort of major event. You're going to deal with dehydration, you're going to deal with people who are in overcrowded areas that might accidentally fall, hit and trip over one another in those kind of circumstances. When we enter into the space where riot control agents are being involved, the quote unquote less lethal, non-lethals, which I'm gonna kind of go into later,

is a bit of a misnomer. In those circumstances, we look at like chemical exposure to things like tear gas. There's a lot of different ways that that manifests that type of exposure, and we can kind of get into that a little bit as well. And then also we have projectile weapons like rubber bullets, flash bangs, those type of things that you might encounter, sort of blunt trauma to people's bodies. Yeah.

And I think you'd like to add, Miriam? I mean, first of all, like, you're doing great out there. Good for you for being out there. It's a hell of a time. There's regional variation, I think, to some of the stuff that we see. So I am based in New York City. Not, you know, not all of the work I've done

has been in New York City, but most of it has. And in New York City, but most of it has. And in New York City, we don't have tear gas. They just don't do it here because the police found out after deploying tear gas extensively during the RNC, that the thing about tear gas is it gets sucked into vents. And when it gets sucked into vents, it gets on all kinds of people in the subway and in buildings and that causes lawsuits and the NYPD does not enjoy that. So they use pepper spray instead because pepper spray is more directed.

It doesn't linger in the air the same way you hit the people that you are trying to hit, you know, and anybody else who's walking by and also your buddies who are standing next to you because you fired into the wind, which is always a good time. And in such cases, yeah. So many. There's a whole series of what we are calling locally, Peppa Pigs, which are... Peppa Pigs. It's what you think it is. So yeah, we see a lot of pepper sprite. We also, because one of the primary weapons of the NYPD are just sheer overwhelming numbers,

we see a lot of just direct hands-on violence, just cops hitting people, punching people, throwing people to the ground. We see a lot of very rough takedowns. Now, if you're acting as a street medic in that situation, you don't get to treat those people because if they are taking down by a cop, they are then swarmed by many other cops and they get taken away. Then that's something that we might see when we meet that person later at jail support. But the other weapon that we used to see quite a bit, but haven't in more recent years is the L-Rat, which is a sound cannon.

They do still use it, but they use it to like make announcements and annoy people. They use it to like make obnoxiously loud announcements, but not to blast out people's ear drums, which was sort of its weaponized form. We haven't seen that recently though. Police will, you know, they all carry tasers. You don't tend to see a lot of that at protests, but it's certainly something that we're constantly aware that they have the ability to do.

But yeah, it is here. It's mostly pepper spray, night sticks, fists, knees, you know, that kind of thing. I would assume that a lot of what they do, like for example, tear gas was, to my understanding, first developed in World War One, really to cause confusion amongst the enemy. And what I assume a lot of these things that they're using, the sound cannons, is to create panic and confusion and hopefully get people to run and move in massed, unorganized ways. And I wonder if you're seeing crush injuries, if you're seeing injuries related to just

the people moving and being scattered around and running in different directions. Is that something that you have seen in this process, either of you? Yeah, well, just real quick, like to the first thing you said, the absolute, like the purpose of every police weapon is to cause fear. One of the reasons that I think they so often use things like tear gas and pepper spray when they could simply choose to not is like one because they have it because their budgets are outrageous and they have you know all the weapons they could ever dream of and why not you know well we have it but i think that the other reason they use it is because it does freak people out it scares people

and so you know a lot of people have had like a big dude shove them before you know that's like not a super unfamiliar situation it's not a a great situation, people don't like it, but they kind of, they're familiar with it. They're familiar with the concept. Getting sprayed by a mysterious chemical that makes you feel a thing you've never really felt before. That's a lot scarier and you don't know what's in it. You don't know what's on your body.

You don't know why it hurts the way it hurts. Like you just know like, oh yeah, I mean, I guess, I guess this is what tear gas feels like. You don't know what's on your body You don't know why why it hurts the way it hurts like you just know like oh, yeah I mean, I guess I guess this is what tear gas feels like I guess this is what pepper spray feels like it's frightening And yeah people absolutely get hurt running away It makes it difficult to see like squeezing your eyes shut is like a very immediate reaction So people run they lose whoever they were at the action with, they get separated from their group, they get disoriented, they may be having trouble breathing, they may be panicking because they're having trouble breathing, then they're having trouble breathing because they're panicking, you know? So yeah, you do, as far as like the most common agent that you see in tear gas in the United States. At this time, it's a believed to be agent CS. And this is something like you mentioned, it was developed right around the time of

World War Two, they started like becoming into effect in like the in the in like the late 50s. A point of thought for this is it was actually made illegal for use in warfare in the 90s by the Geneva Convention. So you don't see the US or other armies using this on soldiers, but we're using it in protests. Well, you don't necessarily see the US military following the Geneva Convention. Okay, well, we can... That's a fair point. Of the wars of law, the tear gas is one that is, wars of law, laws of war. People do be using tear gas sometimes, but yeah, they shouldn't

be. Yeah, and you're right, it was first in the Geneva Conventions in 1925, but then in 1997, specifically, it was prohibited. The thought behind that is they did it because they didn't want prohibited. The thought behind that is they did it because they didn't want someone to get one gas and not know exactly what it was and then use the really nasty stuff like Syrian gas, etc. And the reason our police are able to do it on our protesters is because they're pretty confident that our protesters don't have or wouldn't use Syrian gas. So they feel free to use it at our yeah but speaking of sound canons and disturbing noises being shot into your ear holes commercials we'll be right back i'm robert evans and on my podcast behind the bastards we talk about the worst people in all of history we've discussed a lot of horrible monsters in our time, but this week we

have one of the very worst we'll ever talk about, David Berg, founder of a cult called the Children of God. We'll talk about all of his horrible crimes with special guest Ed Helms. He's not just like a weird religious cult leader. He was like fusing a bunch of hippie ideology in with this kind of like evangelical Christianity, Pentecostal preaching in the mid century. leader. He was like fusing a bunch of hippie ideology in with this kind of like evangelical Christianity Pentecostal preaching in the mid century. He's a very weird guy. But yeah, I'll just get into it.

Like nothing you just said makes sense. That doesn't say. But that's the beauty of cults. Listen to Behind the Bastards on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Open AI is a financial abomination, a thing that should not be, an aberration, a symbol of rot at the heart of Silicon Valley. And I'm gonna tell you why on my show, Better Offline, the rudest show in the tech industry,

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get your podcasts. I know a lot of cops, and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. Across the country, cops called this Taser the revolution. But not everyone was convinced it was that simple.

Cops believed everything that Taser told them. From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened when a multibbillion dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute Season One, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really, really bad. Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season One, Taser Incorporated on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Binge episodes one, two and three on May 21st and episodes four, five and six on June 4th. Add free at Lava for Good Plus on Apple podcasts. Over the past six years of making my true crime podcast hell and Gone, I've learned one thing. No town is too small for murder. I'm Katherine Townsend. I've received hundreds

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Line on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, we're back. We should talk about noxious gases. There has been this persistent rumor. I don't just mean in the last like 10 days, there has been a persistent rumor every time that people have been tear gassed that this time the cops are using super tear gas, special tear gas, cancer tear gas.

To be clear, the effects of tear gas on people, especially to my understanding, people who menstruate are fucking long-term and nasty. So let's just address what are the reagents in tear gas and what are some of the outcomes we can expect short-term and long-term, and then do we suspect that the cops are using super tear gas this time? Well, I guess in terms of like the agent, like we kind of mentioned it a little bit ago, agent CS, the more complicated long name, O-chlorobenzaladine, melanonitrile. So this is actually, it's absolutely the kind of thing you talk about in dinner conversations.

But the compound itself, it's actually not in a gas form. It's actually a solid. It's a crystalline substance that's released, it's aerosolized after any type of like explosion from a grenade or canister. And as far as the types of things that you will experience, it takes effect in the first 20, 60 seconds of contact with the body. It's a nucleophilic substance so that means it will adhere to tears, it'll adhere to moisture on your skin like sweat, any type of like saliva or mucus and like the first things you'll

typically notice are the tearing, the redness, burning, blurred vision in your eyes specifically. On your skin, you could develop burns or rash. A contact dermatitis has also been associated with a development of this on your skin. Burning, irritation in your mouth. You can also develop runny nose. The more kind of more serious long-term effects

that can be more systemic, you can actually develop shortness of breath, wheezing or chest tightness. You can also develop nausea or vomiting if you ingest much of it while you're in the protest. And you kind of already brought it up as well. Unfortunately, we don't have a lot of systemic research that has been done on the impacts of agents like CS

that are in tear gas on people. But we have a couple of things that have come up about pregnancy outcomes. We do see increased rates of uterine cramping, menstrual bleeding, breast tenderness, and delayed menstrual cramping as well in pregnancy. We also don't know how well it crosses into breast milk. So, you know, it's this kind of challenging question.

And the CDC's official like stance on it is this idea that like they don't believe That it crosses but again, we don't have that research so we can't know for sure Great cool good thing to be fogging large city blocks with yeah Well, we don't know Everything it does so probably some of it is fine You know James when you're mentioning how it keeps coming up and there is these concerns of there being like a cause in cancer, we have no proof of that right now. But I mean, we really don't know.

So it is a little concerning long term, especially journalists like yourself who are exposed to it a lot. So that is something I would love to see. But I mean, how are you going to study it? Who's going to fund that? I mean, I don't know, R.? Who's going to fund that? It's not the... I mean, I don't know, RFK Jr. might, who knows? It might be like, we're not funding real research anymore, like vaccines.

If we get on the right podcast, we could probably make that happen. So before we move off of the gas, let's just talk about treatment of it and what you will do out there in the field, someone comes to you. And let's try to address some of the most common misconceptions about what you should be treating or how you should be treating them. Yeah, I'm so ready to go. So since forever, there have been like rumors that there are these, I think because of sort of the way that it is mysterious, like the cops have these like, you know, containers of this awful,

poisonous magical potion that they spray on you and then we have to find the antidote. So things that I have heard as being good for tear gas and pepper spray include raw onion, lemon juice, apple cider vinegar, Coca Cola, avocado. Delicious so far. It sounds like a nice salad that you're making. Great actually. And then the classic milk as well as maylocks. My personal favorite is when somebody like jumps in to correct

somebody on milk and is like, no, no, no, no, actually it's milk of magnesium, not regular milk. So, oh, you got to get it from a magnesium cow. What you actually do is flush out the eyes with water. I mean, that's it. That's the only thing. It's water. The number of things that should go into a human eye are basically water and any, any medicine that is designed for the human eye and saline solution, I guess, you know, and

definitely you could do an eye flush with saline. It's just that if you have saline in your bag, it weighs just as much as water and you can't drink it when you get tired. Well, you can. Well, you can, but it's not recommended. And you can't refill it from a tap. You can drink anything, James. Yeah, if you're not a calorie.

But if you have a bottle of water, you can do a bunch of eye flushes. And then when it starts to run low, you can refill it from a tap because that has water in it too. It's very readily available water in most places. And all of the other things that are out there that people will tell you, you should use, you should should use. You should not use. I have never seen any good evidence that any of them are better than water at getting pepper spray or tear gas out of your eye. All of them are kind of predicated on this idea that there's like a chemical reaction you are trying to affect.

And then that is sort of further based on the idea that the reason this stuff hurts is because it is acidic Because I think people think like what's a chemical that burns? Acid right right these are not acidic that is not how they work They are chemical irritants, and you don't want an acid base reaction in your eye anyway You want to be doing chemistry experiments in your eye. You actually usually wear goggles when you do chemistry experiments. I'm not like a chemist. Water sure is great, but what about all that fluoride you're getting into your eyeballs? Okay, have you thought about that? That'll prevent eye cavities.

Richard, anything else to add to that? No, I think you hit the nail on the head. I think that when I look at what physicians typically recommend in terms of response to tear gas, I always think back on the Dr. Glockum Flecken thread that became very popular on shorter. I'd be very interested to hear what your thoughts are on that, Miriam. I think one of the things that tended

to come from that particular thread, because he does have experience as an ophthalmologist, he mentioned washing your eyes with baby shampoo and rinsing copiously. I think like the challenge with that is obviously like what Miriam had mentioned. One, water, saline are the better options for irrigating your eyes, especially after exposure. For one, the fact that it's, you know, you never know what else, like it's better to avoid any other type of irritants that you could, you know, be exposing to your eye. Also the fact, like we already mentioned, the fact that the agents into your gas, they're nucleophilic, meaning they're attracted to water. So by using water itself, you are effectively going to help to irrigate it.

And, you know, we typically recommend anywhere upwards of 20 minutes for that type of exposure. And then as far as I'm not sure if you mentioned milk already, Mariam. Ah, milk haunts me. Yeah. We can't mention it enough. Eyeball cheese. We cannot mention eyeball cheese enough. What about 2% is the percentage?

2% So let's think about what the context of where we are in a protest. It's very typically outdoors for many hours, usually in summertime. Hot, usually milk is a bad choice. So who likes the idea of putting this, you know, this, this culture on people's eyes? Like I think- Far too many people, as you said. Just yogurt.

Actually, yogurt. You may as well, you may as well go and get some, get Greek yogurt and pour it on their eyes. Yeah. So, you know, he really gets back to the idea of like constant irrigation, clean water is perfectly fine. If you have water at the protest, usually the best thing to do is have the types of water bottles that have like a flip off cap. So that way you can easily, you know, pour it over their face and then recap it for later use on someone else or yourself. I think the other thing too that's really important to discuss is, you know,

because it's this solid aerosolized substance, it can sometimes adhere to your clothing. So you know, there's a couple of different approaches. You know, Physicians for Human Rights has a PDF that I strongly encourage anybody who's listening to review. If you find yourself in the position of either being a protester at a protest or being a medic at a protest. They recommend if you've been exposed to tear gas to hang your clothing afterwards in a heavily ventilated place for up to 48 hours. If you're not able to do that, placing your clothing in a plastic bag, including your shoes outside and not mixing it with any of your other

non-exposed clothing is the ideal response afterwards. Yeah. Yeah. I'll add when Dr. Glockenflecken was on our show and talking about this back during George Floyd, we discussed it. And the other thing that he recommended, he is actually not just a very, very funny internet person, he's also a very good ophthalmologist and he also recommended Initially when it happens soon as you can blink rapidly that really helps initiate the tear response

You're still gonna need water, but it's gonna help start get that that jump started for you And it's gonna require a lot of water about one to two liters is generally what people will say So it's hard to have that much with you on hand when you're you know out there protesting But if you're able to I feel like water is one of the more important things you can bring with you. Yeah So to the the thing about the baby shampoo First of all, yeah I think the recommendation with that is to wash the skin around the eyes with the baby shampoo Not not directly in the eyes, but

That that's like a less harsh way of removing The chemicals from the skin there because you would definitely wash skin with soap and water But I could see maybe using like a gentler soap directly around the eyes that that makes sense as far as like my technique with doing an eye flush, in the streets, a continual 20 minute irrigation just is not feasible. Now sometimes at big actions, medics will set up clinic spaces, tents, stuff like that. And occasionally, very occasionally,

you can do the like true gold standard of eye irrigation, which is 20 minutes of continual saline irrigation, where you have a bag of saline in a hospital and you plug it into a nasal cannula and you tape that to the bridge of the nose and just let the person lie down. That works, but it's just not feasible in most street situations.

So what I do is I will basically, I'll put on gloves, I will get consent because, you know, anytime you're treating somebody who's been brutalized by the police, you are like, you are treating an assault victim and you should prioritize their consent as much as you can. So I, you know, do a quick like, Hey, what's up? My name is Miriam. I'm a medic. Can I help you? I guide them out of the area of immediate danger if they can't see. And then I flush first one eye twice,

and then I have them blink a whole bunch and then the other eye twice. And I have them blink a whole bunch. And then they're usually able to open their eyes and navigate safely on their own. Sometimes they need another round with that, especially if I didn't, you know, if I missed, you know, if it's dark and there things are moving around and I missed the eye or something. But usually that gets enough out that they are going to be able to navigate the situation.

And because they are tearing a lot, that's part of the flush too, right? The body is doing that on its own. And flushing too much with water, I think in that initial moment, you're just washing away tears at that point. So doing like a first round of like forceful make a forceful flush, you know, you're really like using a forceful stream to push the chemicals out. And then, okay, their eyes are open. They're

still in pain. And like, that's just going to last for a while, your eyes are going to continue to hurt. And like that sucks. You've been harmed, somebody did a harmful thing to you. And you are going to continue to have pain for a little while. But if you can see that your immediate danger is reduced, and you can get out of there and you can, you know, in a calmer moment, maybe do another couple eye flushes, maybe, you know, use soap and water on the face, clean up a little bit and like be a little bit happier with how you feel.

But my priority in the immediate moments after somebody's been sprayed is to like help them so that they can get out of there if they need to, because they probably do. Yeah, yeah. Well, speaking of things that will make you tear up. I'm sorry. I'm terrible. Commercials, stay tuned. We'll be right back. Beautiful. I'm Robert Evans and on my podcast Behind the Bastards, we talk about the worst people in all of history.

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In 2020, I had a simple idea. Let's find Reggie. We searched everywhere, but Reggie was gone. In February 2020, Reggie was having a diabetic episode. His mom called 911. Police cuffed him face down. He slipped into a coma and died. I'm like thanking you, but then I see my son's not moving. No headlines, No outrage just silence

So we started digging and uncovered city officials bent on protecting their own Listen to finding sexy sweat on the I heart radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts All right, we are back and I guess let's talk about rubber bullets or various impact mutations and then let's talk about how people, actions people can take to keep themselves a little bit safer, right? Understanding that like you are not the one who gets to choose if violence arrives at your protest. The cops are. And we're recording this on Sunday, a date in June, and people had their big no-kings march yesterday. They were largely like extremely nonviolent and they still got attacked by the cops in LA. So let's talk about impact munitions, right? One thing we didn't mention actually was pepper balls. I've had the-

It was pepper balls. I've had the combo. Yeah, right I've had the ill fortune of receiving some pepper balls in the Balls. Oh, yeah, very uncomfortable cops will try and shoot you in the groin I had a colleague who encountered this just a few days ago. I'm sorry. It fucking sucks. Like there's no Yeah, it happens with such frequency that you'd have to be really trying to believe that it was an accident. So let's talk about things that can hit you, right? If we start with Peppa Balls and then move on up to like,

what people call rubber bullets, which I think, baton rounds is like a more technical description of what they are, or marker rounds, right? Big foam or rubber things that hit you. Sometimes they leave a little puff of chalk on you and theory like that identifies you for the cops to arrest you I guess in practice it's just another thing that they can use to smash into you but like let's talk about some of the things that the cops can shoot from their little guns beanbag rounds is another one right that comes out of a shotgun and it's what it sounds like, right?

It's a bean bag traveling very fast. Somebody here in San Diego lost their eye to one of those in 2020. Let's talk about some of these impact munitions and what the potential risks are for people there. Yeah, I think that, I mean, just the one point I want to bring up in terms of these, they're often called in the media non-lethal and or quote unquote less lethal. And I think that what's really important to recognize, and you kind of already had to do with James, people have been killed with rubber bullets, plastic bullets.

We actually have Amnesty International did a report in 2023 that, you know, showed that over the course of about five years, you know, dozens of people have died as a result of the use of rubber bullets. to 1989 just in Ireland, 16 people were killed in Palestine between 87 and 93. 20 people died just from the use of rubber bullets. And you know, that's reports. We don't know how many in truth actually were impacted by that. Yeah. I would also add that the British Medical Journal back in 2017 looked at about 2000, a little bit under 2000, people who had been affected by these projectiles and 3% actually did cause immediate mortality. And then 15% was long term chronic injury or illness or some sort of being maimed from

the event. So, yeah, you're exactly right. It's pretty significant, especially with the number of these that are shot. You know, they don't have to keep record about how many of these they, they shoot. So actually one other question I have for you, Richard, that you could help answer. Two, one in LA, did you see them shooting these things? And you kind of allude to that. You felt that they were actually directing them towards you.

Did you feel that being there as a medical professional that you were being targeted? I myself was fortunate and not hit by a rubber bullet from witnessing my colleagues who were actually there present at this protest. They themselves were hit with rubber bullets below the naval. He had previous experience from an earlier protest that week where he had actually been struck. And the thing he told me that I remember is like, I'm never going to one of these things, I'm prepared again. Cause he did have that situation where he was kind of hit

closer to the groin. So we ended up wearing, I remember he was wearing a kind of a fanny pack for this particular protest that we were at. And you could very clearly see the dust marks, like the chalk marks of the bullets struck on his fanny pack. You know, it's definitely something that we noticed. Many of the other medics at this event commented

that they had been previously struck or targeted once the police began firing rubber bullets. As far as, we fortunately, we didn't see anybody who was struck You know closer to the face, but there were reports after the no Kings protest Yesterday that you know several people had been struck in the eye or on the forehead There was one picture I think earlier from earlier this week that one of the reporters in downtown LA had been struck with a non-lethal foam round directly in his forehead. And it was this, you could see this very clear, enormous wealth, the size of like a grapefruit and bleeding. And it was, it was, you know, very clearly like aiming above at the face in these

cases. Yeah. There was a huge number during the Chilean protests in 2019, 2020. Eye injuries were huge. There were hundreds. There's a club somewhere of journalists who've lost eyes to rubber bullets. I think they call themselves the Cyclops Club or something. They're writers. They, you know. But yeah, like these things are incredibly dangerous and eye injuries, especially are really common. They are less lethal only in

that it is less likely to kill you than being shot with live ammunition. But like most things are less likely to kill you than live ammunition. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a grizzly bear is less likely to kill you. My friend, Rebecca Watson yeah, yeah. Like a grizzly bear is less likely to kill you than live ammunition. My friend Rebecca Watson says, you know, Samurai Blade is less lethal than, you know, AK-47, but it's still not something you want them to have to use against you. Be ideal if you weren't being attacked doing what is a constitutionally protected right in the US. Yeah.

Hey everyone, I just wanted to record a little pick up here to explain a little bit more, I guess, about 40 millimeter and 37 millimeter less lethal projectiles. They are sometimes called baton rounds. I saw baton round written on the safari land, 37 millimeter one, but they are not the same as the baton rounds you will have seen British military using in Northern Ireland. Most of the modern ones that I am aware of are not designed to be skipped off the ground, albeit there certainly are or at least were rubber bullets that were designed to be skipped off the ground at one point. The use of a bullet made of rubber that's fired out of a conventional rifle of a bullet made of rubber that's fired out of a conventional rifle is very rare in the United States. There are things called sim munitions, which are munitions that fire out

of a conventional rifle using a different bolt and they are generally used for simulated force on force training. You could think about it like going paintballing, but with regular guns or be it with a bolt that makes it so you can't load live ammunition into that gun while it's set up for some munitions. Those were used extensively, I believe in Columbia, identified some ammunition casings. I've not seen those used by police anywhere in the United States. What the LAPD uses is a 40 millimeter exact impact round. It has a plastic body and a sponge nose and that is designed to be point of aim point of impact right so shot at someone like you would shoot a gun at somebody. There are other less lethal's in use even in LA I saw a 37 millimeter

safari land round I saw FN 303's which is like 17 millimeter I saw pepper balls various different versions of less lethal munitions, but most of the ones that I'm aware of in 2025 are designed for point of aim, point of impact. They're also extremely dangerous and as we've said here, they can kill you. Just wanted to clarify that. So like, yeah, these things are dangerous, right? Like they have caused serious injury or death. Let's assume for a minute that like the folks listening

have not attended many actions before, right? That they are at the younger or like they just haven't been in that world in that part of their life and they've seen what's happening recently and they're pissed off and they wanna attend, but they're afraid, right? And they wanna know what they can do,

what they can bring, how they can prepare themselves in the understanding that like it isn't 100% safe because the cops can decide to attack you whenever they want. What can people bring? How can people prepare to be as safe as they can be? Bring water. I mean, not just the eye flashes, but like bring snacks and water. Like you're going to be out there for a while. You need to keep yourself going. You need to keep your friends going. Bring friends. Like be there with somebody who is going to watch your back. Somebody who knows a number for your emergency contact, if you get grabbed, stuff like that. Especially if you're new to this. Try not to run alone.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Even if it's just hooking up with people when you get there. Yeah. I've been at a protest that was starting to look scary. And a woman turned to me and said, I'm here alone. Are you here alone? And I said, Yeah. And she said, now now we're here together. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is beautiful. It's a good place to make friends. It's a very like honest feeling to have. I mean, you're seeing for the problem for many people It's probably the first time you're seeing someone aiming a projectile at you and aiming a firearm at you and firing So yeah, you know, there's a good reason to feel worried That's like the the fact that we have to worry about that in this country period is you know, it's a very chilling I think that you know, Miriam mentioned it, bringing friends is really important.

Something else that we've talked about in circles in LA, I think, is really understanding going in. What is the amount of risk that you are willing to take entering into these spaces, I think, is extraordinarily important. I think some of my colleagues who were at the UCLA protests earlier during the Palestine movement, they kind of asked the question,

they kind of framed it in like green light, yellow light, red light. Like in terms of green meaning like I'm okay with, you know, whatever risks might be involved, like as far as like what my understanding of what this protest could entail, yellow being like I'm not prepared to go so far as to be arrested, but I'm willing to be present on record if necessary,

serve as a witness for my other colleagues who are gonna be in this space. Red meaning, you know, I'm not necessarily prepared at this point to go that far. I want to support, but I also don't want to get arrested. And I think it's important to like, you know, recognize that, not necessarily shame other people in terms of where they're at in this.

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah, absolutely. Because everybody comes at this from different places. I think it's really important when you're in these spaces to kind of understand the risk of the other people who are alongside you. Because if you're a medic and you're trying to treat other people

and then you have all of a sudden, you're by yourself because the other people are like, well, this is you know, this is what I sign up for. I'm out. Yeah. That is also scary, even if you're, you know, you're very willing to be there. Yeah. So, I think just having those conversations and planning more than anything, planning, planning, planning is extraordinarily important.

Yeah. I think that's very well said, great points, and everyone has a different level of risk. And just to be totally clear for our listeners, there was over 2000 different protests yesterday and there was the minimal amount of violence and they were all peaceful for the mean the protesters were the vast, vast, vast majority peaceful and things went fine and some like the one I attended was actually kid friendly. So there was, it was a safe place. But particularly in certain places, there's always a small chance, if not

large, and depending on the police presence there, that things could go the wrong way. And it is something to keep in mind. So I particularly like your point regarding everyone has a different level of risk and that's okay. You're still contributing. I mean, I'm not a place myself where I'm planning on getting arrested. That's just not something I want to do. But I would like to protest that I would like to support. And along those lines, what are ways that other people who have medical backgrounds could potentially contribute or support you? In terms of the ways that like medics can, you know, respond in these situations, I think for me, I have, you know, a box of medical equipment that I go to bring on site. Like I'm obviously like Miriam said, I'm bringing water, because that's going to be foremost

like my most useful tool to help anybody who's going to be affected by things like tear gas. You know, as far as by things like tear gas. You know, as far as other things like having extra masks, I think is really, really important, you know, because it's a huge way of reducing respiratory exposure to the aerosols that are going to be in the air. And then eye protection, eye protection, eye protection. Now the thing about like, you know, we've seen different types of protection for your eyes that are effective. We've seen goggles being used like the ones you would see in a lab. They're not actually effective unless you close the sides, the vents with tape, because otherwise the aerosols

actually can still get inside the mask and irritate your eyes. So if you are going to be like bringing that type of eye protection, it's important to think about that. There's like some higher- end, you know, more effective tools that provide both eye protection and helping to filter particles. Just using a basic goggle mask with the vents covered in an N95 for just about anybody I think is a useful tool. So having those types of supplies for people who need them is helpful. For sure. And as far as like a really low risk thing that people with medical training can do is show up to jail support because that's like a, that is a huge way

you can help not just people who are arrested, but anybody coming out of jail is by doing jail support. And what that entails is hanging out where people get released. People will usually bring food, drinks, clothes, shoelaces. People often get out without shoelaces, belts, and like a couple of extra layers of clothes if people get let out and it's cold, and check out people's injuries. Often people will be taken to the hospital during processing if they have something that the police can't ignore, but people often get released with injuries. And it can be really good to have somebody there who can evaluate them.

Honestly, it's often just giving them like a judgment call on, do you think this needs somebody else to take a look at it in a professional environment or can I put some ice on it and go home type thing. Almost everybody getting out of jail has handcuff injuries if they were arrested in a mass arrest because in mass arrest situations, cops tend to use the plastic zip ties, which can get incredibly tight, even more so than metal handcuffs, which have a little bit, a little length of chain. They strain the shoulders, especially larger people, especially if somebody has a bag on their back, cops will often cuff them in such a way that the bag pushes on their hands and makes the cuffs

increasingly tight. And having a medical professional or a street medic or even somebody who's like just there to like take a look and be like, yeah, man, I see that. That's really fucked up that they did that to you. I'm so sorry. Can be useful having somebody there to witness and acknowledge and to document if somebody is planning on doing something with that. You know, then that's, that's important too. So if you cannot be arrested, find out what's happening with jail support and go support them because that's chill, that's calm. Now, I mean, there are no guarantees in this world, but it is far more likely to be chill

and calm. And you can hang out and eat snacks. Oh, and this is the one situation where medically speaking, bring cigarettes. People want cigarettes when they get out of jail and they deserve a fucking cigarette. Is it good for them? No. I know. I just am sorry. I hate cigarettes so much. I listen, I'm not going to say you can't, but I will never give someone a cigarette. It goes against- I'll bring him a coat.

There's certain things I just can't- Listen, there's certain lines I will draw as a doctor. One, I have to help everybody even if I don't like them. Two, I can't give them cigarettes, even if I like them. So I just can't, those are two things I can't bring myself to do. The cigarette one really drives me crazy, but I get it.

That's fair. In that case, maybe bring some cards for whatever your local public transit is, or failing that. you know, have some cash on hand to send people home in a taxi or have somebody standing by with a car to help people get home. Yeah. Stuff like that.

That's really important for jail support, perhaps even more important than a cigarette. I would add that another thing you can do if you're medically, like a medical professional, especially, is help other people learn really basic skills. You don't even have to be at a protest, right? It could be a week later. There are medical professionals who do street medic training. You can teach people stop the bleed in a day and potentially save someone's life. And so if it's something that you, you know, are skilled enough to teach,

and you need to be honest about whether you're skilled enough to teach that or not, you know, if you've watched a few YouTube videos and you're not, that's something you could use to really help other people who are going to be there at a time when you're not comfortable or safe being there. end of the show to wrap up, if people are just attending to be fucking mad, and there are a lot of people who are fucking mad right now, what should they bring? And if people want to access training, right? Like, what are some some resources that you would suggest? What are some types of training in terms of like first aid that people can access that people should access if they're thinking of attending these things and they're worried. I mean, I think in terms of the type of first aid that you need to be really conscious of, especially in any type of event where you're going to be with a lot of people and you're going in as a medic, and this isn't just for protests, I think it's for any type of event. We do live in a world where, unfortunately, there is a lot of mass shootings. Even if they're firing rubber bullets, we don't know who else may also attend, who may also be going with the intention

of being violent. So, I mean, you mentioned it yourself, stop the bleed, having basic understanding of how to, what types of on the field first aid should be done for individuals who have received a gunshot wound, I think is really important if they've been struck by a car. We've already seen earlier this weekend that there were shootings in, I believe in a couple of different cities. I'm missing which one unfortunately happened, but I do know of at least one report of a Tesla being driven into a crowd of protesters this weekend. Of course it was. So it was, yeah.

If I get killed by a Tesla, I'm going to be so fucking mad. Yeah, the fucking indignity. That is actually the thing that concerns me the most at most protest is some actor coming in from outside To do something like that that part really does concern me Especially because so many of these are are like I had mentioned kind of family friendly And they should be I think families for the most part should be able to come to these things So that is something that I am always constantly on the lookout for Yeah, cars fucking scare me like uh, I've experienced car bombs in my career,

but also just like cars driving into crowds can cause untaught damage. And Americans do be loving large cars. Yeah. And the cops won't stop them. Like, at least in LA, my experience with the cars were kind of in and out the whole time. And that did not make me feel

secure. We had one individual who was stood in front of a van that was carrying ICE agents and that person essentially got run over in that situation. You know, they were not at all stopping for that. Yeah, big cars, it's a big risk. Like, I guess with that in mind, one thing I think about sometimes, and I'm with these things is like, you don't want to be going into this, like, like traumatizing yourself by doing this, but the degree of situational awareness to include, what are my points of cover and what are my ways out is good to have. Yeah.

Yeah. It helps. It helps me feel safer anyway. Yeah. And that's another huge reason to always run with a buddy, right? Because if you're running with a buddy, especially, I mean, I think I personally think that if you are doing medical stuff, you should always have a buddy just because if you're going to be stopped and like somebody's got to watch your back and like it's and you know, you, you might need a second opinion. You can call in that buddy for a consult, you know, the, the medic collective that I, that I run with, um, on really big action days, we'll put together like little bingo

cards that will distribute to all the medic buddy pairs as a situational awareness game. So like if we're all rolling out to, um, this, you know, to a big, big action, we'll put like, there'll be squares for like a cop who clearly is not awake or your ex or, you know, person who forgot sunscreen or, you know, just things to look out for. And I think honestly, like making a little bit of a game like that, if you're going to be out all day can be kind of fun. And it also makes you keep looking. It makes you not just look down at your feet

as you march another mile, you know? Yeah, please, as another great reminder, please prepare for the weather, prepare for the elements, bring water, bring sunscreen, bring hats, all that stuff. Sunscreen can trap the chemical irritants next to your skin. I like to wear a sun hoodie. Like you can get hoodies with SPF.

I am a pale ass person, right? Some of you can see me. For listeners, it is indeed true. I was gonna say, is that sun hoodie why you in no way have a watch tan? Yeah, okay, friends can see my absolutely brutal tan right now. Um, absurdly white.

When I was a bike racer, I used to have the logos of my sponsors burned into my back and that was cool and normal. Um, that's unsettlingly literal. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That was a political moment for me actually.

Um, yeah, I like to wear a sun hoodie because sunscreen, it can trap irritants against your skin. But if it's a creamy kind, right. I think after a point it absorbs and it doesn't, but I've definitely experienced that kind of paste on your skin kind of situation. Interesting. Some of the gnarliest like, uh, injuries I've seen have been heat related at protests. If you're organizing a protest, don't send it straight up a fucking hill.

Like, just don't let like, like go easy on people. You know, the people will be bringing a lot of stuff and they have signs and stuff like it might not wear the comfy shoes, like it go easy on them with the, with the hill climbing and then, cause you're doing it in the middle of the day often as well, like, you know, don't hurt people. Richard, I know you were going to mention something else. The thing I was trying to mention, this is less so for, I'd say EMS, non-physician individuals. Actually, before the podcast, I had a chance to talk with one of the regional vice presidents for CIR, the Physicians Union, that I was formerly a part of when I was in my residency.

Kayla, she has a lot of experience being involved in protests and street medicine. And the thing that she likes to mention is like, physicians have a tendency to want to do a lot in a moment. And so Miriam mentioned situational awareness. I think situational awareness is extremely important. Being able to know when you have the time to do a certain intervention versus when it's time to like get this person out of here and to a safer place I think is like very, very important. So less does more in these situations is what I would say is pretty important. Yeah. What thing I do, like as a journalist, primarily not a visual one, I often work with

photographers, right, as a two person team. I have been a photographer at protests in the past and your world is very small in that viewfinder and it's kind of the same if you're helping someone, right, who's injured, that becomes your whole shit. I will have my, physically have my hand on my photographer a lot of the time on their back, right? And if they need to start moving backwards, I am going to start moving them backwards. Obviously you don't want to leave someone who's hurt, but like if you're the buddy, it's good to be that close to the person

who's providing care so that you can have a way out if you need to have a way out. This was so incredibly useful and helpful and insightful. We appreciate both of you coming on. Let's close up here. What I would like to do is not only plug something for yourselves, but what I'd like to hear and our listeners actually enjoy is to hear something

that's bringing you some joy in these times, some piece of media, art, film, book, podcast, anything, you name it, a good restaurant that you really love, you want to give a shout out to, whatever it is, something that's bringing you a little bit of joy. So let's do those two things. Miriam, let's start with you. What can we plug and what's something that's bringing you some joy? Miriam So thank you for having me on.

This was delightful. So I will plug Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, which is the collective that I'm a part of. You can find us at Tangled Wilderness on Blue Sky and Instagram and nowhere else. And we have a website, which is Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. We have a Patreon, all that stuff. But the main thing I want to tell you about those guys over there is that James and I did a podcast recently for the show, Live Like the World is Dying, on protest, health and safety.

Um, and we go really in detail on specifics of gear, specifics of first aid techniques, and, uh, I think people should maybe check it out if they're, if they're going to be out there. We'll put it in the show notes. Yeah. Because we're professional podcasters like that. You can cruise on over to It Could Happen Here if you would like to find the show notes. Right.

Wait, wait, Miriam, so what's the thing that's bringing you joy? Oh, I have- Do you remember that? Joy? I'm familiar with the concept. I have been rewatching the She-Ra and the Princesses of Power cartoon. Wow, nice. Love it.

What about Jim? She is outrageous. You know, they didn't remake that as an overtly queer Netflix series, so I have had less exposure to it. Bummer. But, you know Cartoon sword lesbians can't argue with it. No. Yeah, that sounds pretty awesome All right, Richard. What about you as far as something to plug? I

Have a huge pleasure of being able to work on on blue sky helping to put together the med sky feeds So if you're on blue sky be sure to subscribe to our labeler so that way you can get your medical specialty on your account And you can get your posts on one of our 40 different feeds and then also As a Latino, I can't leave the podcast without mentioning also. We are working on Latin sky and it's a it's it's a it's the amount of La Penidad and joy that I've been seeing on that feed over the last few days despite the pain it's been very inspiring so I think that's like a the plug that I want to put out there and as far as the thing that brings me joy right now I like I was torn I hear that like a bunch of people have already plugged and or so I'm not gonna plug in door You can you know, I I'm gonna I'm gonna give some love to Ryan Coogler's sinners

Which is easily one of the best movies I have seen in at least the last five years It is an extraordinary movie. Everything about that movie is like art. I just hope that Ryan Coogler can just make original movies for the rest of his life and that he doesn't have to like be stuck doing franchise stuff. Because when he's just given a canvas, he makes beautiful, beautiful art.

Yeah, right on, right on beautiful, beautiful art. Yeah. Right on. Right on. Puta vida. Puta vida. That's for the... Puta vida. So James, what about you? What can you plug for you?

What can I plug? I don't know. There was a hot dog guy who went on the freeway in Los Angeles when everyone else went on the freeway. So that person's a fucking hero. I would let you know if you're in the're in the I'm vegan. So you know, maybe the bun but for the rest of you get after it. You can you can listen to my podcast you maybe already are. It could happen here. If you haven't

listened, it would mean a lot to me if you had listened to the podcast I made in the Dalyien Gap last year when I traveled with migrants who were on their way to the United States. Those people and their stories are really important to me. So if you would listen to one thing I ever made, it would be that you can find it by searching Darien where dreams die, and then it could happen here podcast and it will come up unless you're using a really shit search engine, Google has been even more fucked by AI. And then in terms of stuff that gives me joy, recently, I've been listening to like the music

of the anti-apartheid movement again. I kind of when I was a very young person, my sort of first exposure to activism was through people who had resisted apartheid in South Africa. And they were very inspiring to me and they still are very inspiring to me. I listened to that music with them, right? Like apartheid to be clear ended when I was like eight years old, but like it was cool because it seemed like at that point, the good guys were winning. Yeah. Right. And so here we fucking are.

Anyway, I listened to that because it reminds me that they always lose in the end. Yeah. So yeah, enjoy like, like the specials and Eddie Grant and even the incredibly eclectic Sun City album. Great choices, great choices. And for, if you happen to be listening on the house of pod, you've heard James come and talk about the Darien Gap.

That was a really amazing story and it resonated with a lot of listeners and you should listen to the full multi-part series that he put out on that. It's so much better, so please do that. For me, if you happen to be listening on It Could Happen here, listen to the House of Pod. You'll like it. You'll hear James and lots of people you already know and love and meet some new people. And you'll hear us make fun of medical grifters in the wellness community and that sort of thing as well. And members of the cabinet. I can't believe it. Oh, yeah. Oh boy. As for the thing that's bringing me joy, I recently had a chance to expose my kids on a long drive to the work of Jeff Buckley,

who is, for you younger listeners out there, you may not know who he was because he unfortunately passed away when he was only 30, but he was really a once in a generation talent. His voice, his songwriting transcended different genres. There was rock, there was jazz, there was folk. He could span a vocal range that just really is amazing. And he only had one studio album, Grace, but it is amazing.

And I highly recommend that, or really any of his live albums Mystery White Boy they're all fantastic his cover of Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah is the best version of it in my opinion I will fight you I will fight you if you say Rufus Wainwright better I will physically fight you so it's just raw and beautiful and I and I hope you guys check it out if you haven't already last thing I'll plug June 28th if you haven't already uh last thing I'll plug June 28th if you happen to be in the Bay Area my band will be playing at the Hotel Utah

in San Francisco it is one of my favorite places to watch or play music and it's just super fun come up and say hi and we'll chat and we'll maybe share a drink if we have time okay thank you all so much thanks James this was fun, huh? Yeah, that was fun, it was beautiful. I had a nice time. Yeah, let's do it again. Okay, bye. Bye.

If Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or check us out on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening. I'm Robert Evans, and on my show, Behind the Bastards this week, we have one of our worst subjects ever, David Byrd, founder of the

Children of God cult, who we'll be talking about with special guest Ed Helms. He's not just like a weird religious cult leader. He was like fusing a bunch of hippie ideology in with this kind of like evangelical Christianity, Pentecostal preaching in the mid-century. He's a very weird guy. But yeah, I'll just get into it here. Like nothing you just said makes sense. That doesn't say- Right. But that's the beauty of cults. Listen to Behind the Bastards on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever

you get your podcasts. Open AI is a financial abomination. A thing that should not be. An aberration, a symbol of rot at the heart of Silicon Valley. And I'm going to tell you why on my show better off lying, the rudest show in the tech industry, where we're breaking down why open AI along with other AI companies are dead set on lying to your boss that they can take your job. I'm also going to be talking with the greatest minds in the industry about all the other ways the rich and powerful are ruining the computer. Listen to Better Offline on the iHot Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you happen to

get your podcasts. I know a lot of cops. They get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. This is Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. Listen to Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated on the iartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Over the years of making my true crime podcast, Hell and Gone, I've learned no town is too small for murder.

I'm Catherine Townsend. I've heard from hundreds of people across the country with an unsolved murder in their community. I was calling about the murder of my husband. The murderer is still out there. Each week I investigate a new case. If there's a case we should hear about, call 678-744-6145. Listen to Hell and Gone Murder Line on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast.