It Could Happen Here - After Ceuta

Episode Date: September 29, 2026

In this episode Dana El Kurd talks with Harsha Walia about the anti immigrant backlash that has emerged in the aftermath of the migrant crossing incident in the Spanish enclave of Ceuta. Harsha breaks down what happened, how parts of the right and left have responded, and why we need to center migrant rights in our struggle against fascism.   Sources: Spain: Liberals Cede Ground to Far Right on Ceuta Border Crossings Why is Spain in Africa? – Canadian Dimension Morocco’s US-Backed Occupation of Western Sahara It Could Happen Here | iHeartSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hello, everyone, and welcome to it happen here. My name is Anna El-Kurd. I'm a researcher and analyst of Arab and Palestinian politics. Today on the podcast, I'm speaking with Harsha Walia, who is an activist and writer based in Canada. her book border and rule global migration capitalism and the rise of racist nationalism i think is

essential reading for all of us who are concerned with the rise of fascism and its connection to anti-immigrant sentiment and narratives that are taking root in a lot of our societies i spoke with harsha about the for lack of a better term incident that happened in the spanish enclave of seota on the tip of morocco exactly a month ago so we recorded this podcast on september 10th a month ago exactly, I think something like 70,000 migrants attempted to cross over into the Spanish enclave to seek refuge in the European continent. Some of these migrants were from Morocco, but many were not. And there was a huge outrage and backlash against migrants and against what happened there from the left and the right, as we'll discuss in the interview. So I spoke with Harsha about what the

implications of these arguments have been. And how do we understand this anti-immigrant sentiment that, again, sometimes comes both from the right and the left. So I hope that this is a useful interview and useful for some of us who are trying to center migration and freedom of movement in our struggle against fascism. Without further ado, here's Harsha Waya. So I'd like to start with maybe just a brief summary

for our listeners since the world is on fire and things move quickly about what happened last month, in Seyuta. I think I'm pronouncing that correctly. Yeah. And it's almost exactly to the day. It's been 30 days. And so what happened a month ago is approximately 70,000 migrants from Morocco. And here it's important to say, you know, migrants came from Morocco, but not all the migrants were Moroccan because, of course, Morocco is one of many transit routes for migrants looking to come through the Mediterranean into Europe. And so the 70,000 migrants who came from Morocco were not

only Moroccan migrants, but included migrants from Sudan, Mali, Yemen, Gaza, Palestine, 48, and others. And so what happened to 70,000 migrants transited into Siotta. And Siotta is also a transit point into the EU. Seota is one of the Spanish-held enclaves in Moroccan territory and has long been held by Spain and is claimed by Spain despite being on the continent of Africa. And because it is under formal Spanish jurisdiction, a lot of migrants looking to come into the EU have transited through the enclaves, as they're called. So Seota and Malila. Another one is the Canary Islands. You know, since the 1990s, this has been one of the major routes of migration. And so while it may seem incredibly significant and spectacular, which it was because of

the scale, the fact that Seyota and Malila are transit points into the EU for migrants is part of a very long and ongoing trajectory. And so what we saw, particularly because of the scale of 70,000 people crossing into Seyota, was, you know, this global kind of uproar that frankly came from many parts, you know, came, of course, from the right, where the right and, you know, nationalists across the spectrum. So the far right, but also conservatives, and at a global scale, right? So not just in Europe, but also in the United States and elsewhere, this fed into, of course, the perfect anti-migrant storm that far right and fascists and conservative forces are always fueling. But also we saw a lot of, I would argue, misinformation from many leftist commentators.

who arguably actually used a lot of right-wing rhetoric to claim that this was an attack on Spain because of Spain's very vocal position in support of Palestine. And so this created really a perfect storm for a lot of misinformation across the spectrum, particularly for people who had frankly never even heard of Saita before. And so this is kind of what happened both in terms of the really significant scale of migration that took place,

but also what we saw after in terms of how people responded to this moment. Yeah, thank you for sending it up that way. We'll definitely get into, for me, of interest is the leftist misinformation that we saw all over the internet. But before I get into kind of some of the details of the aftermath, I also just want to kind of break down. Why did migrants think this was a good time to try to make it to Europe? Like, why in this scale? Yeah, it's a good question.

And, you know, I think a lot of what's happening is, frankly, still being pieced together. because one of the things that we did see in the aftermath was a lot of, you know, clipping and hypotheses. And there are still people on the ground who are talking to migrants to find out, you know, why did you make this journey at this moment? What is the circulation of information that was happening? So a lot of that is still coming out, which I think I want to emphasize, because I think in like a hot take economy, we aren't sitting with accurate information always. and there isn't a simple answer because, again, I would emphasize that migrants who migrated in that moment, again, were coming from very different backgrounds. And by backgrounds, I don't just mean

the kind of national origins that I pointed out. But, you know, many of the migrants have left, but many of the migrants are still there. And so people were in very different situations as to why they chose to make the move in that moment. There isn't a single answer. Some of the factors that we can point to and we can see is, you know, there was a Supreme Court decision in Spain just a few weeks prior to this mass migration in July. And so that that decision was in June. And, you know, that decision was a very specific Supreme Court decision in Spain about regularization because Spain has been regularizing migrants, which has been really significant, actually, in the context of, you know, this rightward drift in the EU that has been escalating. Spain's regularization program was

significant. And there was a Supreme Court decision associated with that about travel and travel routes. To kind of put it simply, what we saw is several misinterpretations of that Supreme Court decision that started to circulate. And, you know, for anyone who is familiar or who has family who has been looking to migrate, you know, from all of the many situations and horrors around the world, we know that, you know, information travels fast. So one of the kind of conspiracy theories is like there's no way 70,000 people would have all gotten access to the same information. And frankly, that is a complete misunderstanding of how diasporic communities and communities who are immobilized who are looking to migrate, how information travels.

Travels much wider. Travels much wider. Many of the WhatsApp groups, for example, that in this situation people were referencing, there was at least two groups that had almost 200,000 people on the WhatsApp. groups. And this is not a conspiracy theory because actually coincidentally yesterday, a number of declassified documents were released by Spain. And so these Spanish documents revealed that there were some of these WhatsApp groups had almost 200,000 people on each of them. And so if you think about it, that's just a fraction of the people, you know? So the issue is not how information travels. It's just

whether people choose to act on that information, how verified they think that information is. And so that was significant. The misinterpretation of the Supreme Court decision bolstered a lot of these WhatsApp groups to think like actually now is the moment. Actually, just yesterday, the information that I was referencing actually suggested that the Spanish government was told by Spanish intelligence that there was going to be some significant movement in July, in mid-July, because of access to these WhatsApp groups. And we know that many of the migrants, particularly non-Morocan migrants in Morocco, were waiting to. move in the summer because that is actually typically when people move. Not at the scale of 70,000, but it is not unheard of for thousands and thousands of people to be on the move through the summer trying to get into Europe, particularly crossing through the Mediterranean. So that is actually just

frankly, a baseline when it comes to a lot of migration. And then, of course, we did have the element of, you know, to what degree did the Moroccan government and Moroccan authorities, not necessarily, you know, foster this in an active way, but definitely suggestions that, you know, Moroccan authorities were not as heavy-handed as they have been in the past when collaborating on border securitization and perhaps using this moment to leverage with Spain with respect to Western Sahara. So, you know, multiple factors were at play. But it is the main things that stand out, particularly from migrants who both returned or are still in Sueta, is really the Supreme Court decision. And then just this kind of surge that happened in the moment

where more and more people felt in the moment that they could make the crossing because of the seemingly lacks border securitization in that moment. The music you love. I heart radio. Your favorite radio stations. Everywhere you go. The podcasts, everyone's talking about.

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Those are the very people who I always say vote against their own economic interest, and they complained about the very thing they're receiving. It's raw. I knew that the issue of transgender athletes was not going well with a lot of black men. Roland Martin unfiltered. I went off, I said, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Y'all going to scream at Chanel, but you don't want to see a black luxury company in the same vein. Catch Roland Martin's daily commentary on the Black Information Network.

12 seats. Those are moving south. So if you Democrats, you don't wait to 2030, you better be hitting the ground going hard in the South now. And download Roland Martin Unfiltered on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. I want to get to Morocco and Western Sahara in just a moment. Listeners will remember, or hopefully will remember, a episode I recently did with Western Sahara activist to Mohammed Saddam. So I'll link that in the show notes. But before we get to that, just to kind of break down the aftermath, the kind of,

immediate aftermath we saw in Spain. And as you said, like not just Spain, not just Europe, but also the United States. But let's maybe start with Spain. Like has there been kind of an anti-immigrant backlash as a result of this? And what has that looked like? And then how has that kind of fed into these narratives? Like especially in the United States, like the great replacement theory, like people really hooked on to these things. So maybe you could break that down for us. Yeah. You know, the things that have been happening on the ground, you know, I'm also obviously not there, but being in touch with comrades there and following what's happening has been incredibly alarming.

You know, so it is undeniable, of course, that we are overall in a crisis of neoliberalism and austerity. And we know all of the ways in which that means people feel intense economic pressures in their lives. Seota is not a huge place in terms of geography and population. And so just the ability for the infrastructure, the local infrastructure, to actually support people in a good way, has been significantly strained. However, while that is true, that is often layered as we see in many places with anti-migrant xenophobia, right, where migrants

become the scapegoat for capitalist austerity, become the scapegoat around scarce resources. And almost every day in Seota, there has been anti-migrant protests since the last 30 days, almost every single day. It initially started by far-right forces coming into Seota from other cities, particularly from Spain and elsewhere, really to foster this phenomenon. And unfortunately, now it has extended into Seota locals as well. And so Seota has historically been known for being a very multicultural space. You know, it is a borderland. And so I use multiculturalism, not in the liberal way, but in a very sincere way of what it means for people to have lived together for a very long time. And I don't say that to romanticize all the anti-migrant violence that has been

ongoing in the securitization of the enclaves since the 1990s, but I mean within the local communities. And that has been fracturing, you know, many of the organizations that have been operating in Seattle to support migrants are now facing attacks. You know, they are being called traders. They are facing a lot of hatred just for supporting migrants, just for doing accompaniment, just for doing documentation. And they've been doing incredibly important documentation work, documenting how migrants have been stranded alone on the beach. Many migrants have been corralled and told that they cannot leave certain areas. So they are basically enclosed into certain areas of seota. Many of them have been denied registration. So registration is the process through which you

become registered into the state registry in order to access supports. So they have documented that then when they accompany people, they are being arbitrarily denied. And when they're denied, that means they can't access any of the supports. There have been beatings by local police authorities. There have also been local attacks on migrants by right forces. So it has been incredibly hard and horrific to witness this. And what I find particularly hard about this moment, just to return to this earlier moment, you know, when migrants were first landing on Seota in July, the way that so many left-wing comrades were quick to dismiss it, I'm not saying the left is responsible for the violence, but it has meant a very quick turnaway and abandonment of migrants,

because people were quick to just call it an invasion and say, well, so many of the migrants have come back, it was not an issue. But that ignores the fact that there are, in fact, many migrants who are still there. I mean, again, particularly migrants from Palestine, from Yemen, from Mali, from Sudan, who have been, again, you know, just kind of stranded on the beaches. And for organizations in Seattle

who are supporting migrants and migrant justice organizations, you know, they've said that they haven't seen anything like this in decades in terms of the work and the impact on the ground. And just desperate conditions for these people that I think, like you said,

the left lakes, not all the left, let's just be, you know, everybody, nobody get upset with me. But some large parts of the left and the global north that like really loves a neat narrative. Yeah, so let's maybe get into that. Like, why did we see, for me, especially English-speaking influencers and pundits who speak on the left? Like, why did they connect this to an Israeli plot?

Yeah, I mean, I think what we've seen in the past few years since the ongoing genocide, various kinds of lefts have emerged, you know. One of those lefts has been very quick on the takes, on the upticks. You know, we see content farming. And in particular, we see very simplistic narratives where people may not actually know the extent of place-based geographies and movements and have only seen clickbait about what countries have done to stand up to the Zionist enemy, right? And that is important.

Spain, for example, is one of those countries that has stood up to the Zionist entity. we saw this with, you know, tremendous support, for example, for South Africa during the ICJ hearing. And at the same time, we had organizers from Sudan saying, hey, can we talk about what's happening between the South African state and the UAE and the closer relationships, you know, none of which is to simplify in the opposite direction, but it is to actually sit with internationalism in a meaningful way and to look at all the contours of what is happening. And so what we saw in the aftermath of July, and really from commentators, who, frankly, in my humble opinion,

have any connection to migrant movements, right? So did not know the history of Seota, do not understand Seota as a transit point for many decades, really harping on this idea that because it was migrants entering into Seota, it was an attack on Spanish sovereignty. You know, there was all these clips of these migrants are military-aged men. Just look at them.

They're like 18 to 45. And it's like, who do you think most migrants? are in general. That is actually the demographic of many migrants, not exclusively, of course, but that is the reality of migration, particularly on dangerous routes, right? That has been one of the impacts of securitizing the borders is that it does make it harder for elderly or kids to migrate because those routes are becoming more dangerous. So, but, you know, the narrative became, look, this is a U.S.-Israeli Moroccan-backed plot to destabilize Spain and Spanish sovereignty at a time when Spain is standing up to Palestine.

Like that was the through line and all of the evidence was clipped and farmed to justify that. And so, you know, that was why we saw what we did. I think in this moment we're seeing many other similar narratives in that trajectory that are not about Seota, but that are in that same vein where people want to suggest that everything is a U.S.-Israeli-backed conspiracy. Frankly, you know, people straight up saying, like, you know, if anyone is against Spain, they must be backed by Zionists. Like, you know, and it is clear cut and nuances is terrible and nuances is two-sidism, you know. And so I think there was an uptick because that has become

part of part of some segments of leftist discourse. Yeah. People in the Palestine space, I'll speak for myself in particular, like this struggle to have a truly international. nationalist perspective has been, yeah, a growing struggle in the movement, like, to kind of push against the easy narratives that people want to latch on to. And your argument is that, like, treating it as a foreign military, like, maneuver, like, you're just conceding the far rights premise entirely. This record is on. Miley is having a moment. New name, new album, two exclusive shows. So IHR. Radio is sending you to experience it all life at the Hollywood pole.

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You don't win, you have no power. It's real. Those are the very people who I always say vote against their own economic interest, and they complain about the very thing to receive. It's raw. I knew that the issue of transgender athletes was not going well with a lot of black men. Roland Martin unfiltered. I went off, I said, this is exactly what I'm talking about.

Y'all going to scream at Chanel, but you don't want to see a black luxury company in the same vein. Catch Roland Martin's daily commentary on the Black Information Network. 12 seats, those are moving south. So if you Democrats, you don't wait to 2030, you better be hitting the ground going hard in the South now.

And download Roland Martin unfiltered on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts. Wherever you get your podcasts. So let's maybe also talk about the Moroccan role here. You mentioned already that like there is an interest of the Moroccan state to use migration as a leverage, and Western Sahara plays a role in this. So could you maybe break that down for us? Yeah, I think, as I mentioned,

you know, some of this is still being parsed out. And so, you know, we don't know for sure, but what we do know is that Moroccan state authorities likely relaxed their kind of border controls in that moment. And I think it is important here again to emphasize that, you know, both Morocco and Spain have for a long time collaborated on border controls, right? And so, you know, one of the arguments that I generally make is that we have to understand borders as a linchpin in state violence that, you know, while there are many things often at play in terms of global geopolitics, whether it's imperialism, of course, or bilateral kind of relationships between various states, one of the things they have always collaborated on and

continue to collaborate on is borders. It's completely, global and, you know, Spain and Morocco have long collaborated. Spain has often funded Moroccan border securitization. And so while there are many significant differences between Spain and Morocco, for example, on their positions and alignments on Palestine, you know, Morocco's normalization, Spain's significant stance against Zionism and Israel, although imperfect, is significantly more than Morocco. That is undeniable. Despite Spain and Morocco's significant, differences on Western Sahara, they have collaborated on border securitization. So that is important to hold as the overall context. And then in this moment, you know, it's hard to say precisely because, again,

we don't have all of that kind of information. But what we do know is that at different times, Spain has leveraged the border. And Morocco has leveraged the border for their own personal interest, particularly around Western Sahara. And with respect to Spain, Spain has actually fluctuated on its position on Western Sahara over the past several years. In 2021, as we know, Spain reversed its position on supporting an independent referendum on Western Sahara. This moment in 26 has been really important because Algeria and Spain have reestablished relationships. While we don't know the extent of that relationship, we know that those relationships being reestablished did cause some discontent for the Moroccan state. And so, you know, we can speculate that that is one of the

reasons, particularly in this moment, that Morocco may have decided to really leverage the border in a particular way to have Spain rethink any possibility of rethinking its position on Western Sahara. And to emphasize, Spain has not yet reversed its decision from 2021, but people understood that maybe this gesture towards Algeria might suggest that Spain, was going to change its position on Western Sahara. Interesting. Yeah. No, I think it's a very important point to underscore that there is, as you've mentioned in your previous work, this kind of externalization of enforcement and that there are all these states around the world that play that role, you know, Fortress Europe.

I don't know, catchphrase is the right term here. But like we talked a lot about Fortress Europe like, I don't know, 10 years ago. And the role that a lot of these Middle Eastern states, despite a lot of differences, like you said, like play in. in the maintenance of border imperialism. I kind of want to maybe end on this idea from some of your commentary on this particular incident a month ago about how, you know, we need to understand like people will keep crossing. That's going to be the significance.

So for those of us who aren't taking an anti-immigrant position, either from the left or the right, like what should someone who takes that seriously actually be organizing towards right now? Yeah, I love that question. Because for me, when I think about the externalization of borders as you just were talking about, to me it means that if we see bordering as happening not just as, you know, a line on a map that's, you know, about people crossing in particular moments. Or, you know, especially right now what's happening, for example, in the U.S. or what we see with AFD's victory in a region of Germany.

All of this to me really points to like, it is impossible to separate out the rise of fascism from anti-migrant. racism. And so when I think about, you know, what can we do to support migrants, it really is a much broader struggle to dismantle fascism because despite all their differences and all polls for the past decade have shown this that in different parts of the world, people vote for fascist parties for different reasons, right? Because obviously not every geography is the same. But the two most significant similarities is anti-Muslim racism and anti-migrant racism. That is the most consistent similarity in very disparate parts of the world. Because, you know, for example, white supremacy is not necessarily at play in India. Right. Right. Like that is not the governing framework for fascism,

but it is Hindotva, which is motivated by anti-Muslim racism, caste supremacy, and also anti-migrant racism, right? All of the changes that we're seeing under Hindotwa that are denationalizing and stripping people of citizenship, particularly from Muslim regions of India. So those are very connected in many different parts of the world. And so I think it is so important to understand the ways in which anti-migrant racism is not only about migrants on the move, but it is part of a much bigger project of fascism. And so dismantling fascism is actually so central to thinking about no borders and, you know, the freedom to move. And also, for me, it really is about the freedom to stay, right? So all of our struggles against imperialism, but an anti-imperialism that's inflected with internationalism,

that centers, you know, the way in which borders are a structuring of imperialism, that we cannot continue to see the nation state as an anti-imperialist formation. The nation state as a form. I'm not talking about particular governments, you know, whether they're anti-imperialist or not, but as a form. Of course. And so thinking about anti-imperialism from an internationalist perspective is so central to migrant struggles. You know, like, how do we make sure that people are not being displaced and immobilized by bordering regimes and the dismantling of capitalism? So for me, really thinking about bordering as a through line, through our struggles for

abolition, through our struggles against imperialism, through our struggles against displacement and genocide and gentrification, all of these are very similar forces, right? Very different, of course, in how people are impacted, but similar in their long. So to me thinking about bordering as central is how we actually fight for people on the move. It is to refuse to silo migrants into this other struggle because that is actually what the right relies on, right? Like if we actually think about it, migrant is one of the most state constructed categories. Like we know everything is constructed, race is constructed, gender is constructed. But migrant truly is so constructed, you know, it's literally just about a paper.

Right. And so, you know, to refuse to to feed. into the idea of that construction is to understand migration as inherently connected to all of these struggles, right? It is actually a symptom and cannot be siloed as a kind of separate side issue that people who stand for migrant justice are just, you know, this little pro-immigrant silo alongside all these struggles. It is to see bordering as the linchpin that sustains so many other forms of violence. No, that's so well put. I think we all could do in all of our respective communities. communities to do a little bit more work understanding what fascism actually is. Like what are the building blocks? What are the mechanisms of fascism? And if there's consistency in being anti-fascist,

then you see this very clearly that the immigration issue is essential. But unfortunately, there is not always consistency. But yeah, thank you so much, Hasha. This has been such a wonderful conversation. And I know that a lot of people will get a lot out of it. So thank you for your time. Thank you so much. And thank you for your work. Your work is just so deeply appreciate it. Please know that. Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate it. All right. Take care, everybody. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, Coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly

in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening. Didn't catch the latest Roland Martin unfiltered podcast? Here's what you missed. People wake up and go, oh, damn, wait a hold up. They changed all of that. Yes. It's real. This is a wholesale attack. It is targeting black people in every federal agency. It's raw.

White folks have never allowed that reckoning to last more than a decade. Catch Roland Martin's daily commentary on the Black Information Network. And download Roland Martin unfiltered on the IHart radio app, Apple Podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts. The miles change how you move, but more importantly, they change how you show up for your life. I'm Emily Abadi. On The Hurtle with Emily Abadi podcast, I sit down with elite athletes, record holders, coaches, and everyday runners to unpack the mindset behind pushing through when things get tough. Because the discipline, grace, and grit you build out there on the pavement, that's what helps you show up as your best self everywhere else.

I'd just love to say I never know who's watching. So you want to make sure you through and through and you just stay true to who you are. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Mimi Brown, and every day on Front Page podcast, I help you make sense of the stories shaping our world. Each day, I break down the biggest headlines. Canada's trade fight with the U.S. just escalated again, and Americans could fill it in their wallets. And when a story deserves a deeper conversation, I'll sit down with experts, newsmakers, and thought leaders to help you better understand the issue behind the headlines. Listen to Front Page from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.