It Could Happen Here - Anarchists and the Great War with Andrew

Episode Date: September 1, 2026

Andrew talks with Mia about how anarchists approach fighting in wars through the lens of the anarchist debate on joining WWI.   Sources: Matthew S. Adams, Anarchism and the First World War George Woodcock, Peter Kropotkin: From Prince to Rebel https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/various-authors-the-anarchist-international-and-war https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-manifesto-of-the-sixteenSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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being denounced as naive, irresponsible, even treacherous, and a movement built on international solidarity has been split in the kiosk. The years 1914, at the beginning of the First World War, though you'll be excused if you thought I was describing today. Hello and welcome to Iqadap and here, I'm Andrew Sage, also Andrewism on YouTube, joined again by Neo-Wogg to discuss the infamous split among the anarchists over World War I of all things. So just to be clear, the common anarchist stance prior to the war was fairly straightforward. It was a stance of internationalist worker solidarity against imperialist wars, a solidarity that transcended borders and nationalities, recognizing that ordinary people had more in common with one

another, than with the ruling classes of their own countries. Such wars were never fought in the interests of workers, but in the interests of states, empires, dynasties, and capitalists. If war came, the task of revolutionaries was not to rally behind their own government, but to oppose the conflict and preserve international working class solidarity. However, the Great War would strain the internationalist cause, forcing splits and theoretical developments over the into the ensuing debates personified in the disagreement between Erikaumalatesta and Peter Kropotkin, as well as many others, who clashed intellectually over the nature of war, history, national struggle, and revolutionary change. The First World War emerged from decades of imperial rivalry,

colonial competition, military expansion, and competing alliance systems among Europe's great powers. The assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand in Sarajevo on the 24th, 28th of June 1914, served as the immediate catalyst, but it merely ignited tensions that have been building for years. Within weeks, a regional dispute between Austria-Hungary and Serbia escalated into a continental and eventually global conflict. On one side stood the central powers, led by Germany and Austria-Hungary, later joined by the Ottoman Empire and Bulgaria, and opposing them with the Allied powers initially consistent of France, Russia and Britain, with countries such as Italy, Romania, Japan, and eventually the United States entering the war on the Allied side as the

conflict expanded. Attitudes toward the First World War across Europe were deeply divided and often changed dramatically in the opening weeks of the conflict. A powerful wave of patriotic enthusiasm swept through many cities, with countless people volunteering for military service under the belief that the war would be short, necessary, or even glorious. Governments, newspapers, churches, and much of the political establishment promoted national unity and portrayed the conflict as a defensive struggle against foreign aggression. For socialists, trade unionists, religious pacifists and most relevantly anarchists, the stance was deeply skeptical or openly oppositional to the war,

as it appeared to be a catastrophic clash between rival empires in which ordinary people would bear the costs while elites pursued their geopolitical ambitions. However, one of the attitudes had flared up as a result of the war, even amongst some anarchists and socialists, was anti-German sentiment, manifest in Kropotkin's open letter in the anarchist newspaper Freedom. This open letter would spark the ensuing debate between Kropotkin and Malatester, as documented by historian-Mashire. Matthew S. Adam in anarchism in the First World War, Kapakkin wrote, quote, I consider that the duty of everyone who cherishes the idea of human progress is to crush the invasion of the Germans into Western Europe.

Since 1871, Germany has become a standing menace to European progress. All were living under the menace of sudden invasion. More than that, Germany was the chief support and protection of reaction, end quote. For many anarchists and even Leon Trotsky, this seemed a, clear break from Koputkin's anarchism, which would be in opposition to alignment with nation-state-based struggles. However, as noted by historian George Woodcock in Peter Kropotkin from Prince to Rebel, quote, anti-German sentiment was probably an influence on Kropotkin long before this point, as it was a current in Russian revolutionary movements due to the German rule by the Romanov dynasty,

and perhaps also because his fellow Russian anarchist Mikhail Bikunin had an infamous rivalry with the German Karl Marx, end quote. Though of course, you know, this is speculation. Kropotkin and Malatester were both in Britain when their exchange of letters took place. Malatester wrote in his article, Anarchists have forgotten their principles that the only war worth fighting was one of liberation, and there was no siding with national acclaminations. He said, quote, I have no greater confidence in the bloody Tsar, nor in the English diplomatists who oppress India who betrayed Persia, who crushed the Boer Republics, nor in the French bourgeoisie who massacred the natives of Morocco, nor in those of Belgium, who have allowed the Congo

atrocities and profited by them. The victory of Germany would certainly mean the triumph of militarism, but the triumph of the Allies would mean Russell English domination in Europe and in Asia. End quote. Now, Kropotkin had previously argued that modern wars were fundamentally driven by capitalist competition for markets, resources, and opportunities to exploit less industrialized nations. He pointed to the imperial conquests and colonial conflicts of his time as evidence that financiers and economic interests rather than ordinary people were the true beneficiaries of war. And while he saw capitalism as the primary engine of modern militarism, he also condemned the state as the political institution that organized and carried out these conflicts.

So it was odd for Kropotkin to seemingly come out the contrary of his previous positions and take one state's side over another when he had seen through such sides before. But, of course, people and their motivations are more complex. Krapotkin had sympathy for France and hostility toward Germany. He saw France as the heir to the revolutionary tradition of 1789 and the Paris Commune, and he saw Germany as the embodiment of militarism and authoritarianism. He believed the war was a poor moment for social revolution and feared that a German victory would usher in decades of political reaction, wiping out the hard-worn freedoms that had been achieved in countries like Britain and France.

His support for the Allies was rooted in his broader view of history, that social progress was never guaranteed and could always be reversed, that periods of freedom and cooperation could collapse into authoritarianism. He also believed that national liberation struggles were a space ripe for anarchist social insurrection and radicalization, and that in times of war, an anti-militarist general strike within the targeted nation, would simply gift the country to its invaders, and that anti-militarists advocating such action were thus siding with the invaders and making social revolution more difficult to carry out in the future.

This is, for me, a somewhat compelling argument. I feel this way about current struggle, you know, while the worker has no friend in the states of the world, and I don't think it should be framed as a matter of campism, the way we see running rampant today, it is undeniable that there are some victories and defeats that will be more or less preferable to the viability of the struggle long. term. I am rooting against an Israeli victory anywhere. And while I reserve my right to criticize the

politics, ideologies, and other actions of the groups carrying out that resistance, it remains true that the defeat of their oppressors can open up the space for further struggles. If it was that anarchists were arguing and acting solely for anti-militarism in the targeted countries, then I would be fully with Krapotkin, you know, I would get where he's coming from. We would indeed to have a problem. But I think he mischaracterized the anarchist position, or perhaps to not give them enough credit. As for the anarchist's primary responsibility for anti-militarist ends is an agitating within the invader countries themselves to disrupt the militarism within the threatening nations to the bitter end. Anything less would be an incomplete and flaccid anti-militarist

struggle. Kropotkin addresses this in the manifesto of the 16, which will get a very much. too shortly, and yet, with the context of hindsight, I share Malatester's criticism of the pitfalls of lesser evilism, as he kind of predicted World War II. Adam wrote of Malatester's position, quote, German victory would certainly mean the triumph of militarism, but the triumph of the allies would result in much the same. Both guaranteed the victory of the state principle, with statism delivered in both cases, and the tensions that caused the war remaining unresolved, Malatester perspicaciously warned that with both sides exhausted, some kind of peace will be patched up, leaving all questions open, thus preparing for a new war more murderous than the present. End quote.

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I think it sounds like a psychopath. Oh, this is her fiance? No, I'm so sorry, Sonia. A lot of times our behavior isn't logical on the outside. If we think of intimacy as actually increasing the risk of being hurt, that could result in somebody withdrawing once they've attained to this thing that they've been pursuing. Listen to Therapy Thursday with me, L&K, on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 1915, Malachester, along with Emma Goldman, Alexander Berkman, and 32 other signatories,

co-signed a manifesto titled The Anarchist International and the War, otherwise known as the International Anarchist Manifesto on the War, Manifesto of the 35, and anti-war manifesto. In this text, the anarchists call out the ridiculous notion that any side of this clash of civilizations had claimed to righteousness, freedom, or civilization. quote, in the current conflict, the governments in Berlin and Vienna have justified themselves by producing documents every bit as authentic as those produced by the governments in Paris, London, and Petrograd. It is for whoever on each side who will produce the most unchallengeable, most telling documentation to prove their bona fides and portray themselves as the unblemished defender of the right and of freedom, the champion of civilization. Civilization. Who stands for that at the moment?

Is it the German state with its redoubtable militarism, so powerful that it has stifled every vestige of rebellion? Or the Russian state, whose only methods of persuasion are the Naut, the Gibbet, and Siberia, or the French state, with Espiri B, its bloody conquests in Tonkin, Madagascar, Morocco, and forcible conscription of black troops, the France whose prisons have housed for years past, comrades whose only crime was to have written and spoken out, against the war? Or England, as she exploits, divides, starves, and oppresses the peoples of her

huge colonial empire? No, none of the belligerents has any right to lay claim to civilizia, just as none of them is entitled to claim legitimate self-defense. The truth is that the root of wars of the war currently bloody in the plains of Europe, just like all the ones that went before it, is located exclusively in the existence of the state, which is the political form of privilege. The state is born of military might. It has grown through recourse to military might, and logically, it is upon military might that it must rely if it is to retain its omnipotence. Whatever the form it may assume, the state is merely oppression organized for the benefit of a privileged minority. The present conflict offers a striking illustration of this. All forms of

the state are embroiled in the present war. Absolutism is represented by Russia. Absolutism mitigated by parliamentarism and by Germany, a state ruling over very different peoples by Austria, constitutional democracy by England, and the democratic republican system by France. End quote. Maltestar rejected the idea that anarchist should support one state over another because it was supposedly the lesser evil. Doing so, he argued, placed the struggles of some workers above those of others, an abandoned international working class solidarity.

While he accepted that anti-colonial wars and social revolutions could be justified, he maintained that anarchists should oppose wars between rival capitalist and imperialist states, refusing to become complicit in their violence and exploitation. Later in the brief manifesto, quote, no matter where they may find themselves, the anarchist's role in the current tragedy is to carry on proclaiming that there is but one war of liberation. the one waged in every country by the oppressed against the oppressor, by the exploited against the exploiter. Our task is to summon the slaves to revolt against their masters.

Anarchist propaganda and anarchist action should set about doggedly undermining and breaking up the various states, cultivating the spirit of rebellion and acting as midwife to the discontent in the peoples and in the armies. End quote. Going on to describe how anarchists might convince the soldiers, the factory workers, the peasants, the outcasts, the women, and, quote, capitalise upon every stirring of rebellion, every discontent, in order to foment interaction to organize the revolution to which we look for the ending of all of society's inequities. End quote.

Powerful words. Yeah. And indeed in line with what anarchists had long proclaimed. But Kropotkin, and Kropotkin was not alone, mind you, he took a different position on the war. He and 14 allies published in 1916, The Manifesto of the 16 as a reply. It was not 16 of them who signed that manifesto. It was 15. It just got called the manifesto of the 16 because the home address of one of the contributors

was mistaken for another contributor. Incredible stuff. Yeah, and so that's what I was known today. but it's like he was living in some town in Algeria, I believe, and they thought the name of the town was a person's name. Oh my God. Publishing mistakes are tale as all this time. In the manifesto of the 16,

Kropotkin and the other signatories reaffirmed their opposition to militarism and wars of conquest, but argued that peace could not simply be declared while Germany continued its invasion and expansion. They contended that German workers have failed to resist their own government, months' imperial ambitions, leaving no meaningful internal opposition to militarism. Although they maintained their commitment to internationalism and the eventual abolition of borders, they concluded that the defeat of German militarism was a necessary precondition for a just and last in peace,

believing it would ultimately benefit both the German people and the cause of human liberation. So I get where Klopotkin is coming from, too, as I see parallel. allows to the situation today vis-à-vis American imperialism and the flawed actors that resisted. Even though I generally share Malatester's sentiment, and Malatester was ultimately correct in his assessment that maintaining a consistent stance is necessary for the clarity of the movement, and also that this war's outcome would be nothing but a precursor to further war and would not advance the class struggle and, in fact, worsen its conditions.

All that being said, I think there's room for more simple. pathetic appraisal of Kropotkin's position. As for responses and just the overall outcome of this rift, for one, the Bolshevik party had something to see. Lenin condemned the supporters of World War I as anarcho-chovinists. Stalin and Trotsky dismissed Kropotkin's pro-war stance as evidence of anarchism's failure, despite the fact that the majority of the anarchist movement remained opposed to the Great War. Amalatesta, responding to the manifesto of the 16 with his article,

Pro-Government Anarchists, accused its signatories of abandoning anarchist principles by siding with states in wartime. He also pointed out that in the name of defeating German militarism, they had instead strengthened in militarism, authoritarianism, and nationalism across Europe, including in the countries they were siding with the governments of. Alexander Bukman, echoing this criticism, argue that Kapotkin had wrongly treated nations as if they were their governments, when in reality the war was being driven by ruling elites, not ordinary people.

Malatesta maintained the position that Anachish should capitalize on the imperialist war for class war by encouraging workers to resist their own governments and revive genuine international solidarity. Over wartime repression made revolutionary activity extremely difficult, he believed the crisis created new opportunities of interaction rather than justification for support in any state. The anarchist movement emerged from the other side of the Great War fragmented. Some of its adherents forever stained by their inconsistency of principle. Canadian women are looking for more.

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Here are some hard truths. I would expect Indians to age faster, but I did not expect it to be almost a four-to-five-year acceleration. and get myself into a world of trouble. I'd say probably start bone smashing. That doesn't work. To make it look more defined. They say it works.

I don't know. Listen to Skyline Drive, How to Live Forever on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Didn't catch the latest Roland Martin unfiltered podcast? Here's what you missed. And the argument is, do you want to win? If you don't win, you have no power.

It's real. Those are the very people who I always say vote against their own economic interest, and they complain about the very thing they're receiving. It's raw. I knew that the issue of transgender athletes was not going well with a lot of black men. Roland Martin unfiltered. I went off, I said, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Y'all going to scream at Chanel, but you don't want to see a black luxury company in the same vein.

Catch Roland Martin's daily commentary on the black information. Network. 12 seats. Those are moving south. So if you Democrats, you don't wait to 2030, you better be hitting the ground going hard in the South now. And download Roland Martin unfiltered on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. College football will hijack your weekend, ruin your sleep, and break your heart. And that's why we make the Solid Verbal College Football Show. I'm Ty Hildenbrand. He's Dan Rubinstein. How's it going? Every week, we previews. the games that matter, sort through the biggest

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We're going to react to what happened, talk about the biggest results. Of course, we'll cover the playoff picture and all the little details you might have missed while flipping between like 12 games at once. you know every coach and coordinator or just want to understand why everybody is yelling, we're here to help make sense of the madness.

Listen to the Solid Verbal College Football Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The war forced anarchists to reconsider strategy and revolutionary tactics, and alongside the economic devastation and political instability to unleash, helped create conditions of fueled revolutionary upheaval. across Europe, most notably the Russian Revolution and the wave of labor unrest that followed the war. Though the revolution was initially carried out by a diversity of forces, the Bolsheviks claimed it, and with the seeming success of the Marxist model in Russia, it appeared anarchism would be on the downturn.

Though disillusionment with that model would follow, and as many anarchists have highlighted, the metrics of success between the respective movements were in many ways different, it wasn't all bad news coming after the war. The collapse of old regimes inspired experiments in workers' self-governance, such as the German Revolution of 1918 and the Bavarian Council Republic, where anarchist like Gustav Landauwler and Eric Musam sought to build a federation of workers' councils rather than a new state. Similar anti-authoritarian current appeared in the Cronstadt rebellion of 1921,

where rebels called for free Soviets independent of Bolshevik control. Despite the growing dominance of state socialism, anarchist ideas continue to shape revolutionary struggles in the aftermath of the Great War. Though the war marked a shift in the movement that some would argue anarchism has never fully recovered from, anarchism has persisted, continues to reach people worldwide, and has the potential still to intercede in the diversity of struggles and places today. What is needed is a clarity and consistency of principles and analyses across context that can encourage initiative and responsibility and solidarity and revolutionary achievement. It's easy, I think, to reduce this story to Krapotkin standing alone, betraying

anarchism. While ultimately I end up aligning more with Malatester's position than Krapotkins, I do think that Karparkin deserves a bit more credit than he has sometimes been afforded in retrospect. While his prejudices played a role, he did seem to genuinely believe that German militarism posed a unique threat to freedom that British, French, and Russian powers did not, whether he was right as another question. But I think he was still coming from an anarchist place, coloured as he may have been by his anti-German prejudices. I think the whole incident revealed the liveliness of the anarchist movement,

as one that was constantly questioning and adapting and conflicting and refining its ideas, something that I hope that we would be willing to carry on today. But what were your thoughts on this bit of early 20th century drama alert? Yeah, I mean, I think in a lot of ways, this is the anarchist version of a debate that played out throughout the entire socialist movement and effectively ended up destroying it. in the sense that, you know, the logic that Kropotkin is operating from, to some extent, makes sense. But it's also the logic that was taken by every single individual side in the conflict where, like, the German Social Democratic Party, you know, ends up supporting the war because they think that if they don't, they're going to be sort of like annihilated by the reactionary forces of the Tsar. and but then like the French think they're going to be destroyed by the reactionary forces of the Germans and so on and so forth.

And so everyone ends up operating from this logic of like it's going to be really bad for us if like the other side of this wins this war. And it ends up squandering this moment of possibility. And instead everyone just gets sort of fed into the meat grinder. And I think the struggle playing out this way, was effectively the worst possible thing that could have happened because it meant that some of the only people who were left resisting it were people who shouldn't be running a dog kennel, much less controlling the fate of the socialist movement

and also it meant that the war was allowed to continue. And so I think from a theoretical perspective, it's like it makes sense why people took the positions that they did and also like supporting this war was so, catastrophically wrong that basically every subsequent horror of the 20th century can be laid upon it. But I don't know. The other thing I'll say about is like it's not clear to me if Caprappin acting differently would have like changed anything.

Yeah. But the sort of general failure of the socialist movement to actually grapple with this moment was this sort of apocalyptic moment in the history of class struggle that we have never recovered from. Yeah, I definitely don't think that the blame for World War II and all subsequent wars in the 20th century, which can in some way be connected to that World War I. I don't think we should lay the blame on the feet of Krapotkin or on the anarchist movement or the socialist movement. Yeah. All we can really do is speculate the what if, you know? Yeah. And what if there was a unified front, a unified stand across all these countries, a commitment,

a solid commitment to, we will not cooperate with our respective states. How might the course of the war to know differently? How might history have played out differently? I guess we'll never know. Yeah. But we are in a position to shape the course of history here and now. Yeah. As the title of the podcast goes, you know, it could happen here. it kind of is happening here by here I mean on this planet across the world we are dealing with wars we are dealing with interstate conflicts diplomatic economic and military and despite how interconnected we are through the internet it certainly doesn't feel like we've come any closer to the kind of international solidarity that the great war demanded let alone the many wars

being raged across the world today. Yeah, but even, you know, the bleakness of the past and the bleakness of the present does not mean that the future need necessarily be as bleak. As I've said before, the definitional quality of modernity is that today is not like yesterday. And so we don't actually have to live through yet another round of imperialist butchery where different parts of the working class slaughter each other. we don't have to live in a world that's defined by endless status and capitalist war. We can build something else.

But that's something that is the responsibility of not the state, because the state will never choose to abandon its privilege and abandon its wars. And it's not up to capital, because capital will also continue fighting its wars. The only people who can do it is us. As usual, All power to all the people. Peace. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media.

For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, Coolzone Media.com, or check us out on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.

Didn't catch the latest Roland Martin unfiltered podcast? Here's what you missed. There should not be a single law enforcement agency It does not have body cameras. It's real. Black farmers have been under attack. This is just the latest example of them just slapping DEI on anything. It's raw.

And I'm sitting here going, they are playing y'all for fools. Catch Roland Martin's daily commentary on the Black Information Network. And download Roland Martin unfiltered on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Dr. James Stout. You might know me as a host of the podcast it could happen here. But I'm hosting a brand new show now called Natural. causes, where we explain how going outside is political and look at how we can live together

with nature and take care of one another in a world that's on fire. You know, we feel uncomfortable saying something like culture in wildlife, but that's what it is. We're going to explain how a tick can make you sick and how a lizard might be able to help you and what mountain lions can teach us about zombie deer. You can see the very faint outline into the Aurora. What a magical place. Listen to natural causes on the IHut Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. College football will hijack your weekend, ruin your sleep, and break your heart.

And that's why we make the Solid Verbal College Football Show. I'm Ty Hildenbrand. He's Dan Rubinstein. Every week we preview the games that matter and the storylines that are going to ignite your group chat. And you can join us in the aftermath as we react to what happened, why it matters, and how the sport went completely bonkers yet again. Listen to the Solid Verbal College Football Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Need dating or relationship advice or help figuring out what to say in a really awkward conversation? We've got you.

I'm L&K. And by popular demand, we've turned our fan favorite segment Therapy Thursday into a full-length podcast. Each episode, Ryan Manow and I sit down with licensed therapist Sarah Dash to answer your questions and offer therapy you can actually use. Sarah's the expert. And Ryan and I, well, we're not. I don't feel chosen anymore. So I'm wondering, is this normal after you get engaged? I think he sounds like a psychopath.

Oh, this is her fiance? No, I'm so sorry, Sonia. Listen to Therapy Thursday with me, L&K, on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.