It Could Happen Here - Andrew Explains The Commons

Episode Date: October 31, 2022

Andrew walks James and Gare through the history and theory of the institution of the Commons.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into tech's elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech brought to you by

an industry veteran with nothing to lose. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts from. The 2025 iHeart Podcast Awards are coming. This is the chance to nominate your podcast for the industry's biggest award. Submit your podcast for nomination now at iHeart.com slash podcast awards. But hurry, submissions close on december 8th hey you've been doing all that talking it's time to get rewarded for it submit your podcast today at iheart.com slash podcast awards that's iheart.com slash podcast awards Hello and welcome to another episode of It Could Happen Here.

I'm your guest host of this episode, where I'm hoping to take a moment to discuss the commons, the principles of successful commons management, and why certain attempts to establish the comments have failed. My name, by the way, is Andrew of the YouTube channel Andrewism. You can find me on youtube.com slash Andrewism. I'm joined here with my two co-hosts. That will be Garrison Davis. Hello. And James Stout. Hi. Awesome.

But before I get into exactly what makes the commons work, I first want to discuss what exactly the commons are. Because despite being common throughout human history, a lot of people can't imagine how they might have worked what they are of course the commons is a very specific definition in a particular context of you know feudalism and whatnot but even outside of that the idea of the commons is essentially the resources accessible to all members of society, the totality of the material riches of that community or even of the world, regarded as their whole inheritance rather than being subject to enclosure and to privatization. and to privatization. Even today, despite the process of enclosure,

which is worthy of its own podcast episode or series of podcast episodes or book even, even today, there are still viable, existing commons institutions. And they've, in some cases, endured for well over a thousand years. Most famously, Eleanor Ostrom, the economist who explored the concept in depth and debunked the tragedy of the commons, wrote in her book, Governing the Commons, that from the alpine meadows of Tobel, Switzerland, to the three million hectares of Japanese forests to the irrigation systems of Spain and the Philippines.

The possibility of community, of popular rather than public or state or private or corporate ownership exists. The possibility of communal ownership as opposed to capitalist or state ownership exists there's also the communal land of Chiapas in Mexico after the successful Zapatista revolution and of course as I discussed in the previous episode there are the commons of Barbuda where the entire island of the twin island nation of antiguan barbuda is owned collectively by all barbudans and regarded as their collective heritage these projects of course are not static the commons in barbuda for example existed for about a hundred years but had some precedence prior to that and are now honestly

being encroached upon after the sole shock doctrine of um the hurricane that ravaged the island has opened up an opportunity for Antigua and Barbuda's government to sort of swoop in and privatize the land for the benefit of foreign companies and foreign resorts. So the commons is not this timeless, eternal institution that can't be interrupted, that doesn't ever change. Same is the case in Chiapas, you know. They had similar projects, similar institutions prior to colonization. Colonization rolled in and interrupted all that.

And thanks to the Zapteist revolution, they were able to institute some semblance of that sort of commons institution, that communal land for their collective benefit. They respond to experience, to conditions, to circumstance, to serve or in some cases to eventually not serve the people. But of course, not all commons are able to work. Not all commons institutions operate effectively. And she talks about why using various case studies to illustrate her point.

illustrate her point. In the course of governing the commons, she used, of course, the existence case studies to develop certain principles that she believed make the commons work. The principles that she found in common between Switzerland and Japan, the Philippines and Spain. And she then used those principles to examine the commons institutions that didn't work, identified which principles were missing from the equation. But I'm talking a lot about what these principles, about these principles of successful comments management, and I haven't broken down what they are exactly. So to get into that,

the principles of successful comments management are as follows. Number one, clearly defined boundaries boundaries in the sense of having of those involved the appropriators of the commons the people who are directly accessing the commons having a clear sense of the structure and characteristics of the resource system itself whether it be through a scientific study or through generationally preserved folk knowledge, as well as knowledge and a clear sense of who is involved and withdrawn from and sustaining it. Even if, you know, even in the case where the entire world has been common, where all land has been returned to common land,

to the ownership of none and everyone simultaneously. In such a case, in individual instances of common pool resources, whether it be a forest or a fishery or a lake or groundwater basin, the people most directly accessing that segment of the commons, that system, that common pool resource, need to have a clear sense of exactly what that resource entails, the limits of that resource, the renewability of that resource, and who is involved in withdrawing from and sustaining that resource so that they're able to collaborate. If, as in the case with the tragedy of the commons, everybody's just this

isolated actor, not communicating at all, not collaborating. There's no collective institution in place to help them, you know, work it out. You're basically going to end up in a case like the tragedy of the commons where the system is depleted because nobody has a sense of what anybody else is doing. There's no open channel of communication. Welcome, I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter? Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America.

From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. podcast or wherever you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season

digging into how tech's elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, better offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just

hate the people in charge, and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough, so join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry, and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. The 2025 iHeart Podcast Awards are coming. This is the chance to nominate your podcast for the industry's biggest award. Submit your podcast for nomination now at iHeart.com slash podcast awards. But hurry, submissions close on December 8th. Hey, you've been doing all that talking. It's time to get rewarded for it. Submit your podcast today at iHeart.com slash podcast awards.

That's iHeart.com slash podcast awards. Which brings us, of course, to collective decision-making power. That's the third principle. So I'm jumping ahead slightly, but it flows better this way. Having collective decision-making power over the commons, meaning there's an institution in place that those who are drawn from the commons are able to come together and discuss the rules of the commons,

how they're going to draw from the commons, how they're going to deal with the commons, how they're going to deal with each other as they deal with the commons, and so on and so forth. deal with the commons how they're going to deal with each other as they deal with the commons and so on and so forth the idea of rules is not anti-anarchist as a concept um just the idea that there is not you know popular inputs and collective inputs and free association in place um and so with consensus with this institution of collective decision-making power people will be able to come up with and

modify the rules as it suits their situations as it as it suits their shifting circumstances um and of course and this is the second principle that their appropriation and provision rules of the commons are compatible with local conditions the whole idea is that they're not relying on any external authorities to come up with these rules to commit to these rules to bind themselves to these rules even when the temptations to violate those rules apply so as a practice of you know developing community you need to have some sense of shared norms and developing those shared norms over time regarding behavior and of course as in the case in almost all societies of course

reputation and one's reputation would play a role if you are known to be consistently violating the commons rules of course they're going to be social consequences to that that's just a natural consequence just because the commons exist doesn't mean that people are free of the consequences of how they use those commons just like in the case of the environment you know just because you can cut down all the trees in the forest doesn't mean you're free of the consequences from cutting on the trees of that forest your actions are still going to have consequences whether it be environmental or social there are of course limits as they are in any other aspect of life

but of course simple norms regarding behavior or concerns about reputation may help, but you're also going to need the fourth and fifth principles established in some form to effectively maintain social harmony. The fourth principle is, of course, monitoring, which is the process of continuously evaluating the conditions of the common pool resource itself as well as the behavior of the appropriators now term monitoring is kind of spooky right it sounds a little bit 1984 like big brother is watching you kind of vibe but that's not really the intention it's just the idea that it's just this this constant informal process of looking at and observing and collecting data on the conditions of the commons the conditions including how people behave with the commons as well as the you know commons themselves the resources themselves how much of them we have how quickly they they're being, you know, renewed, that sort of thing. And then through that process of each person, each appropriator

of the commons institutions monitoring the system continuously, you begin to learn what rules work and what rules don't. And so you can adapt your rules to suit the circumstances to suit how people actually behave which is something that centralized and hierarchical institutions have a bit of trouble doing because when you have this horizontal commons institution you're able to look at okay this is how things are going so far and let me we can we can now talk about it we're constantly in this dialogue we all able to contribute our information in this horizontal system and adapt our rules and our behavior to suit whereas in the pyramid structure of a hierarchical and centralized organization the further up the pyramid you go, yes, the more power there is, as centralized institutions tend to have, but also less information because the narrowing of

the pyramid leads to less and less information from the bottom filtering up to the top. And so when you have these centralized institutions, rules are a lot more rigid because they're not able to respond quickly and effectively and as informed as informedly um to the situations as they arise that's also why 80 percent of the planet's biodiversity is being protected by a very small percentage of indigenous people because they are on the ground because they are they're interacting with the systems in real time they're able to respond directly and quickly to changes in that biodiversity to changes in behavior in order to maintain and sustain that system whereas you find that a lot of

conservation projects a lot of restoration projects environmental restoration projects are failing you know i recently read an article about how a lot of these tree planting initiatives that governments have been doing these days well you know it gets them good publicity it gets them good you know social social political international clout when you go back one year two years three years down the line almost all if not all the trees are dead the communities living by these reforestation projects were not involved in the process they don't have any say in the selection of the trees in fact the trees aren't always even chosen in accordance with local conditions there often isn't enough biodiversity

in terms of the trees i mean when it comes to a forest and that's what people don't understand a forest is a living organism you know it's it has multiple layers has multiple parts you can just plop a set of trees down and expect things to work out okay you know um james c scott talks about this in seeing like a state you can't just in these states they they start these sort of forestry projects they they try to legible legibilize you know these forests these simple rows and organizations and you cut out all the fluff, all the shrubbery, all the other plants that are competing, quote unquote. You end up with a dead system. You end up with a system that is very fragile.

It's not able to respond to changes in the environments that arise because it does not have the buffers of a complex web of life in place. of a complex web of life in place. Indigenous groups and really anybody who is grounded in the local context is able to most effectively engage and respond because they have access to that information, because they're able to see the shocks of the system, the buffers, what works, what doesn't. Homoculturists are able to, you know,

develop these intensive systems because they are constantly monitoring, coming full circle here, constantly monitoring the feedback that they're getting from their systems. And of course, there's a fifth principle. In these sort of situations, you're still going to have a couple opportunistic people who attempt maybe tempted to take advantage of the trust present in the group um and when i say opportunistic people i don't mean to create this other this out group i just mean it's in the sense of you know you have like we all do moments of weakness, right? And in those moments of weakness, it can be easy for some to falter. And in that faltering, jeopardize the security of the system as a whole. And so the fifth principle of successful comments management is the practice of accountability and systems of accountability through graduated sanctions of course empathy needs to be maintained throughout the process and i don't think that every infraction must

automatically responded to with sanctions like again i'm not trying to do something in 1984 it's just obviously when you have a system that has and i know i'm referencing 1984 like a right finger but yeah I think it's fine to reference 1984 correctly as opposed to like someone who hasn't read it or read anything else that he wrote yeah yeah yeah we can take it um but you know obviously not every situation can respond to its sanctions obviously empathy should be maintained throughout the process. But when you have a system in which a lot of people

are dependent on the sustainability, not just people living right now, but generations to come, and that's not something we're accustomed to thinking about,

but generations to come you have to think about with these sort of commons institutions. You can't do as the cop list do and just let people do whatever with minimal if any environmental protections with minimal if any like standards in place yes infractions vary in severity and stuff but when the livelihood of the entire community is at stake, you know, things can't be so easy.

When infractions are just, you know, temporary deviations or unthreatening to the overall survival of the CPR, then, you know, tolerance can be high. But it depends on the circumstance. And that's why it really is important that the prior four principles are in place. You know, you have the clearly defined boundaries you have the rules of the commons established by collective decision-making power over the commons with a constant process of monitoring in place because again the responsiveness of the people on the ground is a lot more in tune with the conditions of the commons and with the needs of the people themselves because they are the people and the fifth principle and the fourth principle all the other principles would be nothing without the sixth principle which is the presence of conflict

resolution mechanism humans are gonna human you know we make mistakes we have disagreements and it needs to be some sort of means of discussing and resolving conflict in a healthy and effective way. There are a lot of processes in place. A lot of communities, egalitarian communities throughout history, have used some sort of system of mediation. There's also arbitration, which tends to be more common in state societies. be more common in state societies. And there are also new models and methods of justice being established and drawn from from the past as well that we can look into. But there are conflict resolution mechanisms.

They have to be in place for successful comments management. We live in a society and society includes conflict. Conflict is not always necessarily a bad thing, but it's a thing. And you can't ignore it and expect it to go away. includes conflict. Conflict is not always necessarily a bad thing, but it's a thing, and you can't ignore it and expect it to go away. The seventh principle is the freedom to organize, and this principle is the basis upon which the other principles rest. In some places, people have a lot of autonomy to self-organize free of state control. a lot of autonomy to self-organize free of state control in other places they don't in other places there's a lot of state encroachment on the commons because that has been the mission of the state to further their tendrils in every sphere of life and existence.

So obviously the end goal, or one of the end goals is the complete abolition of the state. And obviously the process upon which we reach those end goals would require prefigurative politics in the sense of establishing the institutions that we want in a future society in the here and now and building that dual power capacity to provide a competitive, excuse the capitalist terminology, but a competitive model that can compete with,

rise from and separately from and eventually replace the existing systems and that's the process of social revolution i have a video coming up on that in december welcome i'm Danny Thrill won't you join me at the fire and dare enter I'm Danny Trejo. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter? Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures.

I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnne Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast

Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso as they explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

New episodes every Thursday. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how tech's elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel winning economists to leading journalists in the field. And I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things

that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com.

Wherever else you get your podcasts, you've been doing all that talking. It's time to get rewarded for it. Submit your podcast today at iHeart.com slash podcast awards. That's iHeart.com slash podcast awards. Lastly, and this does not apply to every instance of commons management but in some cases you'll need the eighth and final principle for successful commons management that is nested enterprises which is you know basically the same principle as an anarchist confederation. You know, if a particular community is accessing a commons institution that other communities are accessing, or if the commons that a group of communities are accessing are part of a larger regional commons, or archipelagic commons, or continental commons, regional commons or archipelagic commons or continental commons then you want to have means of collaboration bottom-up of course bottom-up organizations

but you know maintain the power of the local level while coordinating these larger scaled commons and ensuring that there's a smooth running and smooth communication between the appropriators, the people involved. These principles very clearly differentiate between success and the failure cases. To reiterate, the Commons and the principles of successful Commons management are as follows. Clearly defined boundaries. Rules compatible with local conditions. Collective decision-making power to establish those rules. Monitoring to ensure that those rules are compatible with people and conditions.

Graduated sanctions to ensure that rules are kept up with and the commons are protected from potential threats. Conflict resolution mechanisms, because humans are going to human. Freedom to organize, particularly in the fragile early stages of establishing these projects. And nested enterprises. Confederation from the bottom up.

In certain failure cases, we see that none of the principles apply. For example, in the book, Elno Ostrom references these two Turkish fisheries, the Bay of Izmir and Bodrum, where there was severe rent dissipation, continuing unabated. Of course, the book was written a while ago, so I'm not sure how the situation has evolved since then. But rent dissipation is basically a circumstance in which the commons, common pool resources are being depleted severely and the sustainability of those commons are at stake. And so with all those principles in place to ensure that doesn't happen, you get a situation like what's going on or what was going on in the Bay of Izmir and Burjum.

In the Kirindi Oya Irrigation Project in Sri Lanka, they did have clear boundaries, that one principle in place, but the other principles were not. In Mojave, California, they did have the institution of collective choice. They did have conflict resolution mechanisms, and it did have the recognized right to organize. But the other principles were not in place, and so that institution was also a failure. Or we can look at the case in the Moella fishery, also in Sri Lanka, where rent dissipation had become a very severe problem particularly after 1938 now they did have rules in place, they did have a monitoring

system but unfortunately despite having those rules despite having regulating the access to the beach and the use of the beach scenes and the control over the number of nets to be used.

I mean, they really did try. It wasn't a problem of ignorance. The issue was that although they were aware of the consequences of adding too many nets and drawing too much from the fishery, the issue became that the appropriators, the fishermen themselves, they don't have the autonomy to make and enforce the rules of the fishery. That was deprived of them. And so the institution was not able to sustain itself in the long term. So all these cases you know no more of the three design principles

actually characterized any of these cases and so they were unable to solve the problems that they faced there are of course also issues where they are viable but fragile common systems where you know they have more of the principles in place but they still lack all of them so also in sri lanka there was a gal oyer where boundaries and membership were clearly designated where rules had been devised and monitored where collective choice arenas have been set up but they've you know did not have the autonomy and they did not have conflict resolution mechanisms in place. And so the institution is not as robust as it could be. Of course, when it comes to the commons and existing institutions, existing fragile institutions,

existing successful institutions, existing failures of institutions, that does not necessarily need to limit our imagination of possibilities, but it's good to be informed as to what has worked in the past and what hasn't. We can still imagine future scenarios and experiments and how they might play out, but the point is, if we're trying to reinstate the commons, we need to understand what makes them work. At least, what has makes them work at least what has made them work in the past and in the present for more information on the commons and also the

potential of a library economy you can check out my videos on the commons and the library economy on my channel youtube.com slash andrewism You can also check out Eleanor Ostrom's book, Governing the Commons, as well as a book called Eleanor Ostrom's Rules for Radicals, which I haven't read yet, but I've heard it was pretty good. If you like what I do and you'd like to support me, you could follow me on patreon.com slash stdrew and on twitter.com slash underscore stdrew. That's all i have for today it could happen here peace it could happen here is a production of cool zone media for more podcasts from cool zone media visit

our website coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow. Join me, Danny Trails, and step into the flames of fright. An anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions.

Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso as they explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

New episodes every Thursday. The 2025 iHeart Podcast Awards are coming. This is the chance to nominate your podcast for the industry's biggest award. Submit your podcast

for nomination now at iHeart.com slash podcast awards. But hurry, submissions close on December 8th. Hey, you've been doing all that talking. It's time to get rewarded for it. Submit your podcast today at iHeart.com slash podcast awards. That's iHeart.com slash podcast awards. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast. And we're kicking off our second season digging into tech's elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search,

Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech brought to you by an industry veteran with nothing to lose. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts from.