It Could Happen Here - Andrew on Authoritarian Leaders

Episode Date: May 9, 2024

Andrew and James build on yesterday’s episode, dig deeper into Bob Altemeyer’s work, and discuss what the psychological characteristics of an authoritarian leader are. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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That's iHeart.com slash podcast awards. Welcome to Gracias Come Again, a podcast by Honey German, where we get real and dive straight into todo lo actual y viral. We're talking musica, los premios, el chisme, and all things trending in my cultura. I'm bringing you all the latest happening in our entertainment world and some fun and impactful interviews with your favorite Latin artists, comedians, actors, and influencers. Each week, we get deep and raw life stories, combos on the issues that matter to us, and it's all packed with gems, fun, straight up comedia, and that's a song that only nuestra

gente can sprinkle. Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Calls on Media. Call zone media. Welcome to It Could Happen Here. I'm Andrew Siege of the YouTube channel Andrewism. Once again, I'm joined by... James, and we're back again. I'm excited to learn more about authoritarian leaders this time, right? Yes, last time we discussed the mind of the authoritarian follower, thanks to the research of the late Bob Altmeier. You should definitely listen to the previous episode, but

in summary, we looked at his concept of right-wing authoritarianism, which refers to a personality type that features three primary traits or attitudes. First is a high degree of submission to authorities who are perceived to be established and legitimate in the societies in which one lives. The second is a general aggressiveness directed against various persons that is perceived to be sanctioned by established authorities. And the third is a high degree of adherence to the social conventions that are perceived to be endorsed by society and its established authorities. We also speculated the roots of authoritarian aggression

and looked at the mind of the authoritarian follower, which demonstrates traits such as illogical thinking, highly compartmentalized minds, double standards, hypocrisy, a lack of self-awareness, ethnocentrism, and dogmatism. Today, as promised, we're looking at the other side of the coin. We're looking at the leaders, but also what we can do to address both followers and leaders. So let's begin. In 1994, social psychologists Felicia Prato and Jim Sedanius presented the Social Dominance Orientation Test as a measure of belief in social inequality.

orientation test as a measure of belief in social inequality. Social dominators agreed with statements like, quote, this country would be better off if we cared less about how equal all people are, and, quote, some people are just more worthy than others, while disagreeing with statements like, quote, if people were treated more equally, we would have fewer problems in this country. Fellow social psychologist Sam McFarlane took that test and 21 others, including the RWA scale, to determine which would be the best predictor of prejudice. His research found that only two of those tests, the social dominance orientation and the RWA, could do the job well. But the thing is though, while both tests were able to identify prejudiced people, they were identifying different types of prejudiced people, with very little overlap. Social dominators and high RWAs. Authoritarians of two flavors. They have some

things in common though, besides prejudice. They tend to support the same political parties. They tend to have shared economic philosophies. Usually conservative on both counts. But they also have some huge differences. Starting with a desire for power. Walter Meyer conducted two surveys with students that included the question how much power, as in the ability to make adults do what you want, do you want to have when you're 40 years old? In this sense, Altamira is using power in the sense of authority, as I would define it. They recognize right above others in a social relationship to give commands, make decisions, and enforce obedience. So the scale went from 0, meaning they don't care for it, to five, meaning their

goal is to have a great deal of authority. Social dominators consistently wanted to have much more power than most people did. Authoritarian followers did not. Now obviously, people often want authority for different reasons, some more self-righteous than others. But social dominators take thrill in authority in and of itself. Doesn't matter what the cause is, as long as they can control others in the process. There's another scale Altamira uses, the power mad scale. On it, social dominators agree with statements like, it's a mistake to interfere with the law of the jungle, some people were meant to dominate others.

And do you enjoy taking charge of things and making people do things your way? They also disagree with statements like, life is not governed by the survival of the fittest, and we should let compassion and moral laws be our guide. Social dominators have some of the highest scores on this scale, and high scorers tend to be intimidating, ruthless, and vengeful, with no care for nobility or charity. They despise empathy and have a dog eat dog mentality toward the world. They love the power to hurt and their drive to the top. High RWAs just don't have that drive. And while authoritarian followers might highly value group cohesiveness and loyalty, social dominators don't. Because like I keep saying, they're in it for themselves,

for their power, and they will betray their own group if push comes to shove. Another area where social dominators and higher WAs diverge is when it comes to religiousness. Authoritarian followers are usually religious fundamentalists, while dominators don't tend to be that involved. Some of them do go to church regularly, but that's for manipulative reasons. Because social dominators could lie. They lie a lot. All they have to do is pretend to be religious and say the right words and boom, they get through the higher WAs. Reminds me of a certain politician.

I'm just going to say this is putting me in mind of like Donald Trump tear gassing a massive crowd of people so he can walk to a church and then take photos outside and not go in. Yeah. Good times. There's another scale we could take a look at and that's the exploitative manipulative amoral dishonesty or exploitative mad scale unlike higher wa's social dominators anonymous responses indicate that they agree with statements like there's really no such thing as right and wrong it all boils down to what you can get away with, and there's a sucker born every minute, and smart people learn how to take advantage of them. Social dominators disagree with statements like, it gains a person nothing if he uses deceit and treachery to get power and riches, and all in all,

it is better to be humble and honest than important and dishonest. In essence, social dominators admit to striving to manipulate, to being dishonest, to being amoral and treacherous. They see their followers as suckers, fools to be controlled. But what else makes them different? Well, we could go back to the roots of hostility. Social dominators actually show greater prejudice against minorities and women than higher WA's do. But their followers are much more hostile towards LGBTQ people. Why? Well, it ties back to the religiousness point and the higher WA respect for the law.

Since attacks against minorities are less clearly supported by religious and civic authorities as they used to be, authoritarian follower aggression towards these groups, both overt or sneaky, had to be curbed a little bit. Meanwhile, social dominators are hostile because they already live in the apocalyptic jungle that higher W.A. is fair, and they are the apex predator. They don't score highly in the apocalyptic jungle that HWAs fear. And they are the apex predator. They don't score highly in the dangerous world scale because they're not scared. They're the ones ready to weaponize that fear. Dominance is their first priority. For everyone they meet, they need a reason to not try to control them. They don't care too much about the law either.

It's just about not getting caught. They're not as self-righteous as higher WA's because they're quite immoral and higher WA's aggress when they believe right and might on their side. Social dominators aggress because might makes right for them personally. Higher WA's hate crime out of fear and self-righteousness in the name of authority. Social dominators hate crime out of sheer desire to intimidate and control. Lastly, we need to look at the differences in their thought process. Social dominators, for the most part, don't have a web of contradictions, weak reasoning skills, compartmentalized thinking, or gullibility that define higher WAs' mental life. They're not particularly dogmatic or

zealous about any particular cause or creed. They just want authority. They say whatever they need to say to get ahead because they have no consistent values. They'll be hypocrites like higher WAs, but they're probably aware of and fine with their own hypocrisy. For example, they're cool with wealth inheritance and corruption They're opposed to welfare They're unconcerned with income inequality or voter disenfranchisement They're apathetic to racial inequality and injustice They believe that people should have to earn their place in society And they don't care if most of them can't

They still talk about how the only way to have a level playing field Is to get rid of things like affirmative action And part of what defines social dominators is their utter disregard for equality. So we have to ask again, what causes this? Why are they like this? And well, social scientists just aren't sure yet. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season Sure, yeah. unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse, and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong though, I love technology,

I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. Hola mi gente, it's Honey German and I'm bringing you Gracias, Come Again. The podcast where we dive deep into the world of Latin culture, musica, peliculas, and entertainment with some of the biggest names in the game.

If you love hearing real conversations with your favorite Latin celebrities, artists, and culture shifters, this is the podcast for you. We're talking real conversations with our Latin stars, from actors and artists to musicians and creators, sharing their stories, struggles, and successes. You know it's going to be filled with chisme laughs and all the vibes that you love. Each week, we'll explore everything from music and pop culture to deeper topics like identity, community, and breaking down barriers in all sorts of industries. Don't miss out on the fun, el té caliente, and life stories. Join me for Gracias Come Again, a podcast by Honey

German, where we get into todo lo actual y viral. Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian Gonzalez.

Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami.

Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If we look at the life-shaping experiences of social dominators they would probably report

that deceit and cheating were good tactics because it led to what they wanted taking advantage of suckers felt great they enjoyed having power and having people afraid of them life boiled down to what you could get away with and of course the experiences led them to believe that life is a jungle. Dominators were probably rewarded early in their lives when they cheated, took advantage of people, weaponized fear, overpowered others, or got away with something wrong. Whether or not their parents gave them that outlook on the world, because of the psychological law of effect, they simply learned that being amoral, unsympathetic and exploitative worked well for them.

So what happens when higher WAs and social dominators work together? In this field of research, the lethal union refers to the combination of happily subservient higher WAs with social dominators who share their values in the driver's seat, eager to dominate and control. A death spiral union that develops all the time in the real world. As Altamira aptly described, quote, True, sufficiently skilled social dominators served by dedicated followers can make the trains run on time,

but you have to worry about what the trains may be hauling when dominators call the shots and the higher WAs do the shooting. End quote. be hauling when dominators call the shots and the higher WA's do the shooting." While most social dominators get fairly low scores on RWA tests and vice versa, a very small percentage of people in Altamira's sample scored highly on both RWA and social dominance tests. These are the double highs. If prejudice was a sport in the Olympics,

higher RWA's would get bronze, social dominators would get silver, and double highs would definitely get gold. Now you might be wondering, how do they manage to score so highly on both tests if social dominators and higher RWA's have so many differences? How can somebody be a submissive dominator so there are a couple of reasons why a wannabe dictator would score highly

on both tests one is because some rwa scale statements are open to interpretation take the statement quote our country desperately needs a mighty leader who will do what has to be done to destroy the radical new ways and sinfulness that are ruining us. A follower would be like, yes, please. And a dominator would be like, here I am. Behold, I am your leader. Double highs still score highly on all the power scales like other social dominators and unlike other higher WAs. Secondly, double highs are the religious

among the social dominators. So they respond to the religious items on the RWA scale that other social dominators don't, thereby significantly raising their RWA score. I don't think I need to go into too much detail. I feel like I should be absolutely clear that double highs suck. Whatever the issue issue they probably are

on the wrong side of it the worst of the worst prejudiced power hungry exploitative mad religiously fundamentalist dogmatic dangerous worldist a noxious stew of the worst of all social dominators and hard ways regular social dominators might end up in charge of PTAs, HOAs, workplaces, local governments and other personal kingdoms. Not all of them succeed in life due to the animosity they create, the obstacles they might face or their lack of intelligence, attractiveness or network to gain the kind of power they want. And some of them might even get caught in their lies and illegalities and don't have the capital to get out of it. Do you see double highs?

They tend to have a head start. While regular social dominators have to fake their religiousness to get the support of higher WAs, double highs can more easily get started in their own churches, already part of the in-group, sharing their prejudices, economic philosophies, and political lean-ins. Even if they are faking it a little bit, a double high already knows all the code words,

dog whistles, and bible verses they need to get ahead. They know what stance they should hold about evolution, the role of women, abortion, school prayer, censorship, law and order, etc. Double highs run the show you dig yeah for sure so now what knowing that social dominators do whatever they can to hold on to power and higher w is extremely resistant to change how do we deal with a situation where social change requires dealing with these people i mean you can't debate them even if you were to intellectually wrestle with a double high leader and utterly destroy

them with facts and logic, their higher-WA audience is not likely to change their minds. Trying to change highly dogmatic, evidence-immune, ethnocentric people is an exercise in frustration and futility. It's also hard to fight the sheer fear-mongering power of the likes of Fox News and Facebook, to combat the class and religious roots of ethnocentrism, and to reduce the self-righteousness of their followers. It's even harder to convince them that they are being systematically misinformed and played for fools by their leaders.

Even if they listened to these episodes or watched my videos or read Altmeier's books, they would either get defensive or, honestly, because a lot of them aren't self-aware, assume that this is about someone else. Finding a way to compartmentalize, misinterpret, rationalize, and dogmatically deny anything I've said so far. So, what to do? unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel winning economists to leading journalists in the field and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong though, I love

technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God, things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. Hola mi gente, it's Honey German and I'm bringing you Gracias, Come Again, Thank you. We're talking real conversations with our Latin stars, from actors and artists to musicians and creators, sharing their stories, struggles, and successes. You know it's going to be filled with chisme laughs and all the vibes that you love.

Each week, we'll explore everything from music and pop culture to deeper topics like identity, community, and breaking down barriers in all sorts of industries. Don't miss out on the fun, El Te Caliente, and life stories. Join me for Gracias Come Again, a podcast by Honey German, where we get into todo lo actual y viral. Listen to Gracias Come

Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh.

And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian, Elian, Elian Gonzalez. Elian, Elian, Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami.

Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. First and foremost, representation matters. It's important that higher WAs see more of the breadth and diversity of human existence and experience. Their reality is skewed and the visibility and representation of people from other backgrounds, not just in media, but also in their personal lives, is very important.

One thing studies have shown is that higher WAs who know a gay person are far less likely to be homophobic than their fellow higher WAs. And the best exposure to different types of people is through access to higher education or, more broadly, just any space with diversity. College may not necessarily turn them into committed revolutionaries, contrary to popular belief, but the environment of higher education has a tremendously beneficial impact on higher WAs. Four years of undergrad experience can knock their scores down by 15 to 20%.

Academic spaces need to be alive vibrant and most of all accessible and we need people in academic and non-academic spaces to embrace the power of influence i don't mean this in a give them an authoritarian to follow kind of way i'm not talking about like becoming a club president or ordering people around. I'm not thinking about hierarchical leadership, but rather the natural influence of individuals who model exemplary behavior and provide an example for others to look to. People who freely lend their talents and knowledge and mentorship to others. In a conformity experiment in Harvard in the late 1940s, real subjects were surrounded by actors who deliberately gave obviously wrong answers to questions. Usually, the subjects went

along with the wrong majority at least some of the time. But if, in another condition of the experiment, one other person gave the right answer, real subjects were much more likely to do the right thing, even though it meant joining a distinct minority rather than the majority. So I'm saying that as the people who hold radical beliefs, it's important to stand up. You know, you don't have to form a majority to have an effect. Two or three people speaking out can sometimes change the decisions of entire school boards church boards or other institutions obviously reform is not going to be enough but we do need to present some opposition on that front in that sphere no lack of opposition

teaches dominators to keep dominating and it only takes one person to start the opposition the domino effects that could potentially influence even higher WAS. Because at the end of the day, it's clear that they want to be quote-unquote normal. In their bubbles, in their echo chambers, they don't really realize how extreme they are. They need to be exposed to the perspectives and experiences of people outside their tight circles. Mutual aid and other organizing efforts can show them the humanity of other people, finding common ground in common cause. But ultimately, in my view, the best long-term solutions require youth liberation and prefiguration.

We need youth liberation both at home and at school and everywhere else. As long as we continue to reinforce the notion that children need to blindly submit to authorities, as long as we refuse to grant them humanity and autonomy, we will continue to be without humanity and autonomy. We will continue to have adults generation after generation who do not know how to resist authority. We must prefigure those relationships in our personal lives and our social spaces. But we must prefigure our liberation. It's not enough to just campaign against social dominators. We have to dismantle the systems that allow them to dominate in the first place.

The only way to keep social dominators from seizing power is to prefigure a system where no one person can so easily coerce and dominate. To quote Bob Altmeier one last time, we cannot secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity if we sit with our oars out of the water. If we drift mindlessly, circumstances can sweep us to disaster. Our societies presently produce millions of highly authoritarian personalities as a matter of course, enough to stage the Nuremberg rallies over and over and over again. Turning a blind eye to this could someday point guns at all of our heads, and the fingers on the triggers will belong to right-wing authoritarians. We ignore this at our peril.

Social dominators want you complacent, apathetic, hopeless, and out of the way. They want to control everything and everybody, and they have their loyal followers ready to mobilize. They are not the majority, but they're determined to win. Do not let them. If you know what's happening, if you spot these signs in your own spaces, it's your responsibility to do something about it, to organize, to educate. Because one person could accomplish so much, and two people could accomplish so much more. Good luck. All power to all the people

because it could happen here. You can follow me on patreon.com slash stdrew. This has been Andrew Sage, Andrewism. It could happen here. Walla jazz. Peace. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media.

For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso as they explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions.

Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. Welcome to Gracias Come Again, a podcast by Honey German, where we get real and dive straight into todo lo actual y viral. We're talking música, los premios, el chisme, and all things trending in my cultura.

I'm bringing you all the latest happening in our entertainment world and some fun and impactful interviews with your favorite Latin artists, comedians, actors, and influencers. Each week, we get deep and raw life stories, combos on the issues that matter to us, and it's all packed with gems, fun, straight-up comedia, and that's a song that only nuestra gente can sprinkle. Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Now at iHeart.com slash podcast awards. But hurry submissions close on December 8th. Hey, you've been doing all that talking. It's time to get rewarded for it. Submit your podcast today at iHeart.com slash podcast awards. That's iHeart.com slash podcast awards.