It Could Happen Here - Andrew on India

Episode Date: February 1, 2023

Andrew is joined by James and Mia to talk about the history of India.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadowbride. Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of fright. An anthology podcast of modern-day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into tech's elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech

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Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to It Could Happen Here. Once again, hosted by myself, Andrew, from the YouTube channel Andrewism, as we talk about whatever. And the whatever in question is the second most populous country in the world and one potential vision for its future, drawn from its anti-colonial past. potential vision for its future, drawn from its anti-colonial past. I'm speaking of course about India, a subcontinent from which I draw a good portion of my heritage, one that boasts over 9,000 years of recorded history and roughly 55,000 years of known human settlement. India is an incredibly diverse country, ethnically, linguistically, religiously, and otherwise. But unfortunately, it has suffered much of the same fate that the rest of the world has, falling prey to the rapacious appetite of British colonialism.

Now, historically, the Indian local economy was dependent upon the most productive and sustainable agriculture and horticulture and, of course, pottery and furniture making. Jewelry was very well known for jewelry. In fact, Indian jewelry makers ended up starting some very successful jewelry businesses when they were freed from indentureship in Trinidad. They also got involved in leather work and a lot of other economic activities in India. But the basis of India has traditionally, historically, you know, for thousands of years been textiles, different types of textiles. Each village had its spinners and carders and dyers and weavers who were of course at the heart of that village's economy. But an interesting outcome of British colonialism in India has been the flooding of India with the machine-made, inexpensive,

mass-produced textiles from Lancashire during Britain's industrial revolution. from Lancashire during you know Britain's industrial revolution the local textile artists were very quickly put out of business and village economies suffered very terribly so I mean you know well I think we're familiar with this sort of general story smaller cottage industries became overrun by you know mass production and course, I don't mean to sound like I'm entirely demonizing mass production. I'm just describing what has happened. Of course, mass production has had its many benefits in providing access to resources

and to products to many different people. But of course, it's also had its many drawbacks, including the sheer environmental impact, many different people but of course it's also had its many drawbacks including you know the environmental impact as well as the impact on people um you know as mark spoke about of um their alienation from the process of production as the um industrial system uh basically separated each step in the process of production to different workers and so no one had a hand in the production of a product from start to finish and of course that that had significant social and i would also assume mental impact on the people with you know that whole era of british

economic imperialism happening in ind India the changes that took place within a generation was so rapid you know your head would spin that devolution of you know the India home economy was really a sight to behold and another element of British economic imperialism British imperialism more broadly, was the introduction of British education under colonial rule in the 18th century. When Lord Macaulay introduced the Indian Education Act in the British Parliament, he said, and I quote, a single shelf of a good European library was worth the whole native literature of India. Neither as a language of the law, nor as a language of religion,

has the Sanskrit any particular claim to our engagement. We must do our best to form a class of persons, Indian in blood and color, but English in taste, in opinions, in morals, and in intellect. So the typical racism, typical white man's burden, typical, you know,

of course this phrase was used in a North American, indigenous American context, but I believe the phrase is taking the Indian out to the man. Yeah, kill the Indian, save the man. Yeah. Right.

So it's kind of interesting. It's a different type of Indian talking about there, but that sort of idea still applies. And really that sort of sentiment is something that has existed throughout the history of colonialism, something that is seen in all of Britain's former colonies because once this aim was put into parliament and pushed forward,

it was pursued with the might of the British Raj. All the traditional schools that took place in different village communities were gradually replaced by colonial schools and universities of course taking advantage of the caste and class system that was in place in india prior to their arrival the british would have selected wealthier indians to be sent to public schools such as Eton and Harrow and universities like Oxford and Cambridge and those Indians that you know they learned English poetry, English law, English customs to neglect their own culture you know it's like why read the classics of the Vedas when you have Shakespeare and the London Times. And so having been raised in that environment,

having grown up, having basically their minds colonized from the crib, they began to see their own cultures as backward, uncivilized, old-fashioned, regressive. And again, something you see all over the world. You saw it in the residential schools, you see it in the schools in the Caribbean, you see it in schools schools you see it in the uh schools in the caribbean you see it in schools in africa basically everywhere the colonizers went

um they would take a generation they would take generations of young people and they would develop that self-hatred um that disdain for their own culture by you know, positioning their education, British education, as, you know, superior. In fact, during the process of decolonization, quote-unquote, of, you know, formal political independence for many of the former colonies of Britain, particularly in the Caribbean, as that's where I'm most familiar, a lot of the people who became, you you know the first prime ministers of the country the one that would establish the trajectory of the country for years or decades to come um thinking of people like Bustamante in Jamaica uh Eric Williams Dr. Eric Williams in Trinidad and

Tobago um among others basically all of the first prime ministers, basically every single Caribbean country, they had all been educated in English schools, in English universities, well, in the prestige schools of their countries. They didn't end up being flown out to Britain itself. And they basically became the rulers, became the leaders um were handed power over by the British to basically rule in their stead of course with all the talk of finally

independence um people got caught up in that energy of political independence and freedom from the control of the British after all the decades and centuries of struggle. But unfortunately, it proved, I believe, to be a ruse as very little changed for the average person in the years post-political independence. Yeah, this is something that Fanon talks about in the sort of Francophone context of like – even in countries where you have like at where the colonizers are thrown out by actual revolutions, you get this class of like lawyers and intellectuals who are – like have been educated in imperialist powers or in sort of their schools who wind up as like the first generation of of post-independence leaders and those people like you know what whether they want to or not end up sort of like reflecting the sort of values and political positions of like of the formal colonial powers and there's this whole sort of dynamic that like i i feel like i feel like this is the part of phenomenon

that people don't read very much but that's about how these leaders sort of like lose touch with it with the sort of like anti-colonial masses and how they sort of like wind up reincorporating their countries back into sort of colonialism yeah yeah that's really how you see that neoclonal dynamic developing um and it's really it's hard to tell um retrospectively whether these leaders thought they were actually you know anti-colonial or if they knew that they were you know carrying on a particular legacy but i find that because trinidad is only recently celebrated, just last year, 60 years of independence, there are, of course, people who were alive prior to independence. And so you find a lot of the older generation, how some of them speak, particularly the more educated ones, how they carry themselves, how they dress, the attitudes they espouse. It's very much like to get any kind of respect in their time

you had to behave as if you had to present yourself as if you had to present yourself as approximate to Britishness as possible the whole you know conversation of respectability politics and stuff so I have some understanding of what they had to go through and where they're coming from when they hold on to these perspectives still because that's what they grew up in um but it really is a shame that they've been holding back progress for so long now uh because they still hold on to these deeply conservative deeply religious deeply reactionary ideas that were uh just you know uh they just inculcated with in the education system and in the cultural zeitgeist of their time.

I was just, when Mia was talking about Fanon, I was thinking as well about like, have you read a book called Beyond a Boundary by C.L.R. James, Andrew? I haven't because it's about cricket and I'm not too integrated, cricket. But I know it's an iconic, I know it's about cricket and i'm not too integrated cricket but i know it's an iconic and that's an iconic read i think he yeah he explains a lot of that very well um i think

if people could read it even if they don't like rick i'm not a big cricket person uh but uh it's certainly one of the best sports books i've read and maybe one of the best books uh and he does a good job of explaining he put a lot of bangers in his tank yeah he did have some bangers highly recommended yeah if you don't want to read about cricket he also talks about this in the krumah and the ghana revolution yeah but you do want to read about cricket that is not about cricket it's more of an autobiography like seen through the lens of his his cricket i think but yeah oh that'll be cool because i know he spent a lot of time he grew up of course born raised and stuff in trinad so we're interested to see um sort of if he talks about his political development how

that arose in his time in trinad yeah i think he does it's been a while since i've read it but i think he talks about like how he sort since I've read it but I think he talks about like how he sort of saw himself constituted as colonial subject like through his experiences interacting with British people uh on one of the places where the terrains where he'd encountered them I guess was playing cricket because right yes of course and you know thankfully, we've come to decimate them at their own game as usual. It's true. Yeah. Yeah.

And even like English cricket at a certain point, like we're getting really into cricket, which I know is a diversion. But like they had rules where you could only have a certain number of international players playing for each English county. rules where you could only have a certain number of international players playing for each english county uh it's it's extreme like if you look at how the empire constituted whiteness through sport and like who was allowed to play rugby which is a touching sport and who was allowed to play cricket which which isn't normally a touching sport like it did it's racist as fuck um yeah i mean of course there's a lot of racism in sports history. Yeah. Sorry for the cricket diversion. Sorry, please continue.

It's entirely fine. I see it's all Greek to me because I don't know what any of those points or numbers or anything means. There are too many different types of cricket. I mean, I've had people try to explain to me before, but it's just not my thing. I know people who play it, though, so, you know, good for them and all. Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill.

Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you.

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Listen to Blacklit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. But back to India, right? If there's one particular person in India's history that really represented this type of Western-educated, colonized subject trying to be something bigger than that kind of mentality it was Jawaharlal Nehru who became the first prime minister after independence Nehru of course sought to promote the industrialization of India not via a capitalist

route but by more of a centralized planning route which is why if you look in the india's constitution you will see that it's refers to itself as a socialist country yeah weirdly if i'm remembering right nero was like a he was like a fabian socialist or something yeah yeah his inspiration came his inspiration came from the intellectuals of the london school of economics and the fabian society so yeah he's quite the character you see the sort of direction that you end up putting the the country and i mean even today india in many ways continues to be ruled in the english way without english rulers um just like in the caribbean continues to be ruled in the english way without english rulers in africa English rulers in Africa various countries have been ruled in their various colonizing powers way

rather than in their own way without the colonizers rulers without the colonizing rulers the industrialists, the intellectuals the entrepreneurs, all of them are working with the government to see the salvation of India taking place in a subordination to the world back and the IMF and the GATT uh you know they see India as part of this global economy

meant to submit and to serve to multinational corporations um but of course the people of India not too pleased and the people of India are suffering under the brunt of that. After seeing the failures of, of course, the Congress Party under Nehru and his daughter, Indira Gandhi, and her son, Rajiv Gandhi, The poor continue to be poorer than ever. The middle classes are turning towards certain directions. And of course, as we've seen in the past few years, the farmers have been agitating against the various pressures they've been placed under. Things kind of suck.

And it was pretty much how Mahatma Gandhi predicted that it would. Because unlike Nehru and unlike other Western educated thinkers of his time, Gandhi thought differently about what India's potential could be, what it it looked like and that's part of the reason they killed him and i must preface this discussion of gandhi's vision of a free india by noting of course that gandhi himself was a very flawed person um you know racist sexist um pretty sure he assaulted somebody he did some very um fucked up stuff to his niece yeah yeah yeah yeah i'll just we'll leave it at that but i mean that's not something you can put aside so it's something to be cognizant of but one of the aspects of his time on this planet had been his development of a sort of a vision of a free india not as a nation state but as a confederation

of self-governing self-reliant self-employed people living in village communities deriving their right livelihood from the products of their homesteads it would have been a sort of a bottom-up system where the power to decide what could be imported into or exported from the village where economic and political power all remain in the hands of village assemblies where people in these village assemblies in these communities would continue to live in relative harmony with their surroundings with um they would continue to weave their homespun clothes eat their homegrown food use their homemade goods care for their animals their forests and their lands uh take care of the fertility of the soil, enjoy the homegrown stories

and epics of India and continue to build their temples and appreciate their various regional distinctive cultures. This was meant to be the system, the practice, the idea, the philosophy of Swadeshi, which is a conjunction of two Sanskrit words, swa, which meaning self or own, and desh meaning country. Swadeshi as an adjective meaning of one's own country. According to the principle of Swadeshi, the idea is that whatever is made or produced in a village must be used first and foremost by the members of that village so i mean there could be trading and collaboration between villages and communities uh but gandhi thought it should be minimal like a sort of an icing on the cake um goods and services to him was something that should have been generated within the

community the things that needed to be used by the community should be created in that community. Another influential, perhaps the most influential aspect of Swadeshi and Swadeshi philosophy took place in the early 20th century as a direct fallout to the decision of the British India government to partition Bengal. The use of Swadeshi goods were the goods that were produced and made in India by India for Indians and the boycott of foreign made goods

were among the two main objectives of the Swadeshi movement and so the boycott resolution ended up being passed in Calcutta City Hall in August 7, 1904 boycotting the use of manchester cloth and sold from liverpool in the district of barousal the masses adopted the

message of boycotts of foreign goods and the value of the british cloth sold there fell very rapidly various songs and cultural works ended up being produced in the time to sort of bolster the movement. At one point, 150,000 English cloths were burnt as part of the boycott. And the symbol of caddy spinners, the sort of tool that was used to weave cloth, to weave fibers, to create yarn uh became a major force in the movement and in the representation of the movement i think i get what you're saying

like we can all benefit from a little specialization and and the the uh like improvements that that brings while still sort of acknowledging that autonomy is desirable yeah i think there needs to be some some balance between you know autonomy and self-reliance and that kind of thing and also uh collaboration i think he goes a bit too much in that autonomy direction but in the context of when these ideas are being developed, it's sort of understandable because in this time, the self-reliance of the people was being vastly eroded. People being forced into cities,

they've lost their livelihoods. And there was a sort of a developing reliance in the global economy where Swadeshi proposes that India avoids economic dependence on external market forces that create these vulnerabilities in communities that end up

really harming the members of that community. Swadeshi is meant to avoid the unhealthy and wasteful environmentally destructive transportation of goods between communities, avoiding the excessive emissions that that would cause,

and promoting, of course, the development of a strong economic base to satisfy the needs of the community, to satisfy the local production and consumption. Swadeshi is kind of about both creating a self-reliant India and also creating self-reliant villages within India so that each village is a microcosm of the greater India, a web of sort of a distributed, decentralized web

of loosely interconnected communities. Welcome, I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures.

I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, From the shadows. As part of Michael Duda Podcast Network. Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Prandenti.

And I'm Jimei Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, the early career podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. One of the most exciting things about having your first real job is that first real paycheck. You're probably thinking, yay, I can finally buy a new phone. But you also have a lot of questions like, how should I be investing this money? I mean, how much do I save? And what about my 401k? Well, we're talking with finance expert Vivian Tu, aka Your Rich BFF, to break it all down. I always get roasted on the internet when I say this out loud, but I'm like, every single year,

you need to be asking for a raise of somewhere between 10 to 15%. I'm not saying you're gonna get 15% every single year, but if you ask for 10 to 15 and you end up getting eight, that is actually a true raise. Listen to this week's episode of Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jack Peace Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series,

Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. I'm Jack Peace Thomas, and I'm inviting you to join me in a vibrant community of literary enthusiasts dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories. Black Lit is for the page turners, for those who listen to audiobooks while commuting or running errands, for those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge between the chapters. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture.

Together, we'll dissect classics and contemporary works while uncovering the stories of the brilliant writers behind them. Black Lit is here to amplify the voices of Black writers and to bring their words to life. Listen to Blacklit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In a time where the British were promoting the centralized, industrialized, and mechanized modes of production, Gandhi was turning to the principle of decentralized, homegrown, and handcraftized modes of production gandhi was turning to the principle of decentralized homegrown and handcrafted modes of production uh rather than mass production production by the masses i think there was also a spiritual component to the idea of swadeshi because

at the time gandhi was not a fan of the idea that people were not using their hands to produce. The idea that everyone should be involved in some kind of trade or skill of some kind that utilizes their hands because of the whole spiritual component of using the body that you have fully. body that you have uh fully and another aspect of the spirituality of swadeshi was of course the idea of this locally based community enhancing a community spirit community relationships and community well-being an economy that actively encourages mutual aid that encourages the principle of care between families neighbors animals lands forest, lands, forestry, natural resources for present and future generations. It's a direct confrontation of the driving force between mass production, which Gandhi saw as this cult of the individual,

where there must be expansion of the economy on a global scale and expanded consumption and production for the sake of economic growth out of a desire for the individual's personal whims, for the desire for personal and corporate profit. another reason of course that Gandhi rallied against this idea of mass production and promoting production for the masses by the masses is because mass production lets people leave in their villages their land their crafts and their homesteads to go work in factories where they became cogs in a machine standing in a conveyor belt living living in shanty towns, and dependent upon the mercy of the bosses. And of course, as those bosses gained access to more efficient technologies because they were constantly in pursuit of greater productivity and thus greater profit, the masters of this economy, they want more efficient machines working faster,

and so they want less people working those machines and so the result was that the people who had to move to these cities to work in these factories were eventually thrown out when they were no longer considered useful and became enjoying the millions of unemployed you know rootless jobless people in Indian society. Swadeshi instead encourages the idea that the machine should not be something that subordinates the worker, but instead something that is subordinated to the worker, that it doesn't become the master, but instead it is mastered and allows us to orchestrate our own pace of you know human activity it's not that swedish is necessarily against automation against technological development but it's more so that

it aims to circumvent the harms that could be caused by such technologies being out of the control of the people themselves and in the control of the select private few i think swadeshi has a sort of an element of glorification of the past um in my doing my research for this episode i ended up looking into um of course the writings of proponents of swadeshi um and people discussing gandhi's thoughts on the subject and i'll just quote one particular passage swadeshi is the way to comprehensive peace peace with oneself peace between peoples and peace with oneself, peace between peoples, and peace with nature. The global economy drives people toward high performance, high achievement, and high ambition for materialistic success. This results in stress, loss of meaning, loss of inner peace, loss of space for personal and family relationships, and loss of spiritual life. Gandhi realized that in the past, life in India

was not only prosperous but also conducive to philosophical and spiritual development. Sudeshi for Gandhi was a spiritual imperative. I think it's understandable that a decolonial project would attempt to develop a pride in the history of the people who have gone through so much in, you know, their legacy and their traditions and their ideas. But I think it's a bit of a stretch to glorify India's past and pre-colonial past in such a respect i don't think any uh people's pre-colonial past should be excessively uh glory glorified or um like mythologized do you mean mythologized yeah romanticized yeah that's a good word yeah. Because I feel as though one that clouds our judgments and our critical eye for the aspects of past societies

that do need to be challenged, do need to be changed. I think that's part of my issue with Sudeshi, is this idea that if things just go back to these sorts of villages and village communities, that everything else would just go back to these sorts of villages and village communities, that everything else would just be okay. But of course, there were other issues that India was dealing with even prior to colonization,

you know, in terms of sexism, in terms of the control of the caste system and the higher castes, and the other aspects of Indian society that, of course, were made more severe by British colonialism. Colorism, I think, is one of those issues that, of course, existed prior to colonization, but was made worse by the British and their presence in the subcontinent.

But I think striking that balance of cleaning, learning from, respecting that pre-cleaning of past, but also in our decolonial projects, not excessively romanticizing the past in an effort to progress towards the future. These days, I believe Swadeshi is most known for its focus on protectionism, its disdain for an important investment, but it was of course a very wide-spanning philosophy. It was a vision and a philosophy of life that Gandhi held for his entire life.

It's not something that I was familiar with prior to looking into it and my continued pursuit of decolonial perspectives and explorations of various post-colonial projects and philosophies. But it's something that I've appreciated despite my criticisms of some aspects of it. That's about all I have for you all today. of it. That's about all I have for you all today. You can find me on YouTube at Andrew Zim on twitter.com slash underscore St. Drew. And you can support me on patreon.com slash St. Drew if you're so inclined. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com. Thanks for listening. You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow.

Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of riot. An anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into tech's elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech brought to you by an industry veteran

with nothing to lose. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts from. Welcome to Gracias Come Again, a podcast by Honey German, where we get real and dive straight into todo lo actual y viral. We're talking musica, los premios, el chisme, and all things trending in my cultura. I'm bringing you all the latest happening in our entertainment world and some fun and impactful interviews with your

favorite Latin artists, comedians, actors, and influencers. Each week, we get deep and raw life stories, combos on the issues that matter to us, and it's all packed with gems, fun, straight up comedia, and that's a song that only Nuestra Gente can sprinkle. Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.