It Could Happen Here - Antisemitism in America feat. Dana El Kurd

Episode Date: December 22, 2025

Dana El Kurd speaks with Ben Lorber, Senior Research Analyst at Political Research Associates and co-author of Safety through Solidarity: A Radical Guide to Fighting Antisemitism. They discuss trends in antisemitism we are seeing today, why the far right is talking about Palestine, and how establishment organizations are not meeting the moment.  Sources: Jewish Currents article by Mari Cohen on the ADL - https://jewishcurrents.org/the-adls-antisemitism-findings-explained  Jewish Currents article by Shane Burley and Naomi Bennett on the ADL - https://jewishcurrents.org/examining-the-adls-antisemitism-audit  Safety through Solidarity book - https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/741043/safety-through-solidarity-by-shane-burley/  Article by Ben in Convergence Magazine on What Antisemitism Is and Isn’t – https://convergencemag.com/articles/what-antisemitism-is-part-1/  Nexus Project - https://nexusproject.us/  Diaspora Alliance - https://diasporaalliance.co/  Jewish Currents podcast on the confronting the anti-zionist right - https://jewishcurrents.org/confronting-the-anti-zionist-right  Arielle Angel on the need for new Jewish institutions - https://jewishcurrents.org/we-need-new-jewish-institutions See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast, Guaranteed Human. I'm Stefan Curry, and this is Gentleman's Cut. I think what makes Gentleman's Cut different is me being a part of developing the profile of this beautiful finished product. With every sip, you get a little something different. Visit Gentleman's Cut Bourbon.com or your nearest Total Wines or Bevmo. This message is intended for audiences 21 and older. Gentleman's Cut Bourbon, Boone County, Kentucky. For more on gentlemen's cut bourbon, please visit

gentlemen's cut bourbon.com. Please enjoy responsibly. Hey, I'm Nora Jones, and I love playing music with people so much that my podcast called Playing Along is back. I sit down with musicians from all musical styles to play songs together in an intimate setting. Every episode's a little different,

but it all involves music and conversation with some of my favorite musicians. Over the past two seasons, I've had special guests like Dave Grohl, Lave, Mavis Staples, Remy Wolf, Jeff Tweedy, really too many to name. And this season, I've sat down with Black Pumas,

Alessia Kara, Sarah McLaughlin, and more. Check out my new episode with John Legend. I feel like, in a lot of ways, our careers are paralleled in some ways, but they just never intersected for some reason. I know. We should take it slow. We're just ordinary people.

We don't know which way you go. Listen to Nora Jones is playing along on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, it's Chuck and Josh from the Stuff You Should Know podcast, and it's that time of year again when we knuckle down to do our annual holiday episodes.

We collected our best past classic holiday episodes and compiled them into a 12 days of Christmas toys playlist that the whole family can enjoy. That's right. Maybe you missed it the first time we detailed the history of Beanie Babies, Monopoly, or Yo-Yo's, a whole lot more. So listen to the 12 Days of Christmas Toys playlist on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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CallZone Media. Hello, everyone. Welcome to It Could Happen here. My name is Dan Al-Kurd, and I'm an associate professor of political science and a researcher and analyst of Arab and Palestinian politics and authoritarianism more generally. today I have on the podcast Ben Lorber. Ben is a senior research analyst at political research associates. He's worked as a journalist, organizer, and movement builder for over a decade and published on right-wing social movements, Israel, Palestine, Jewish culture, and other such topics for outlets such as the nation, salon, Jewish currents, and more. He's the co-author of Safety Through Solidarity, a Radical Guide to Fighting Antisemitism, book published in 2024. I'll link in the show notes for sure. Ben, welcome to it could happen here. Thanks for having me.

So I thought we could get started with you just telling us about yourself and your research. Yeah, yeah, well, I came to the topic of anti-Semitism, I guess. In some ways, I mean, as an American Jew, you know, it's a part of my life. But in many ways, I came to it politically through the Palestine Solidarity Movement. Over a decade ago, I spent a lot of time in the West Bank doing solidarity work. And I worked for some years for Jewish Voice for Peace, as the United States. their campus organizer. And I saw, you know, kind of firsthand how charges of anti-Semitism are used to shut down dissent to stop Palestinian, Arab and Muslim students from, you know, asking

their university to not use their tuition dollars to bomb Gaza, you know? So at the same time, you know, we all saw the rise of the alt-right in the first Trump administration. And yeah, you know, like many, I started digging into, you know, what do these folks believe? You know, the anti-Semitism in their rhetoric was undeniable. And a long story short, since 2019, I'm I work with political research associates to, yeah, to monitor the radical right. I write a lot about anti-Semitism and how it animates the MAGA movement and rising authoritarianism. And also, I also focus a lot on how, you know, the right uses these charges of anti-Semitism to go after their political opponents and to shut down criticism of Israel's genocide. Yeah, I mean, it's been something to behold to watch actual anti-Semites accuse others of anti-Semitism.

And the irony seems to be lost on all university administrators, apparently. But I've listened to you a couple of times on different podcasts and read your work. I have your book. I realize that I really don't understand the contours of modern anti-Semitism. Like maybe because I'm an immigrant. So the tropes that they're talking about, the tropes that they're using, it really is a learning experience for me to be like, oh, I didn't realize these are the stories that they're telling. With that said, you know, you recently published something for Convergence magazine titled something like what anti-Semitism is and isn't. And again, I'll link in the show notes.

And I thought that was really useful. What are kind of the main takeaways for people to know from that piece? Yeah, yeah. In some ways, anti-Semitism has some unique features. And it also, it reminds us of, say, you know, Islamophobia with tropes that there's a grand Muslim conspiracy to take over the West. You know, anti-Semitism, you know, that kind of similar conspiracy theory logic that really is at the heart of MAGA, you know, and basically it's a conspiracy theory that says, you know, there's a Jewish cabal, you know, at the top of the government and politics, you know, society, the economy, the media, you know, culture, basically whatever authoritarian's oppose and whatever they want to rally their base against,

you know, they can use this, this image of, you know, things are not what they seem. there's kind of the hidden power structure, and it's Jewish. I think a lot of what MAGA does really well, and what the left tries to do, but in a different way, is, you know, to tap into people's frustrations that the rent is too high or that they feel alienated by the modern world or, you know, the more racist frustrations that their neighborhoods are changing. You know, there's a lot of frustrations and grievance that MAGA can tap into in our world, a vast, you know, inequality and desperation. And, you know, blaming someone at the top is very useful to channel those grievances. And that's kind of the way that anti-Semitism has worked for over a century. I mean, even before fascist movements of inner war of Europe that led to the Holocaust, you know, there were Russian ultra-nationalists who used documents like the Prodicals of the elders of Zion, you know,

to tell millions of Russian peasants, hey, don't join with, you know, more radical movements for liberation. You know, those are controlled by the Jews, right? So, you know, these tropes, especially, I think, of Jews controlling progressive movement, you know, Jews behind, you know, mass immigration or BLM or LGBTQ rights. They're very powerful for authoritarian, you know, to use. And sometimes they say Jews outright. Sometimes they use dog whistles like George Soros or cultural Marxist or globalists, but it's the same kind of idea. Yeah, the Heritage Foundation guy saying globalists, we're not going to bow down to globalists. Yeah.

Yeah. So, I mean, lots of political ideologies use anti-semitism. And there are, of course, a lot of intersections and overlaps. But I think what I particularly found confusing, or like the piece that I was least aware of when I said, I didn't understand the contours of what this looked like, was the Christian nationalism bit. How has, like, the Christian nationalist movement used, anti-seman. And how has that movement kind of progressed and developed? Yeah, that's a good question, you know, because, you know, we're so used to the Christian, right,

saying that they're built on a, you know, timeless foundation of Judeo-Christian values. right? You know, I think in the West, you know, after the Holocaust, with the rise of U.S. support for, you know, for Israel, it became, you know, very common to have a kind of, you know, phylo-Semitism on the Christian right of saying, you know, we are the world's, you know, most valiant defenders of the Jews. In the 80s, it was against godless communism or after 9-11, it was, you know, against radical Islam. And, you know, that in itself has a lot of anti-Semitism, right? I mean, I think, you know, the listeners might know about, you know, the Christian Zionist, you know, moved. which supports Israel because of end-time's fantasies in which Jesus is going to return, and most Jews are going to perish or convert to Christianity. So there's a lot of anti-Semitism in the kind of, we love the Jews. We really, really love the Jews' attitude of Christian nationalists. But more recently also, you know, there can be even a turn away from that. You know, that was always like a kind of contingent phenomenon that, you know, arose in a very

particular kind of post-war, you know, sort of neoliberal context, and the world is changing. And there's a lot of Christian nationalists now who, you know, who might say, let's just drop the Judeo and let's have a Christian nationalist, you know, movement in the U.S. and in the West. And they're a lot more skeptical of U.S. support for Israel. And, you know, it's kind of like, you know, it's not surprising, I guess, if you look at the history of anti-Semitism and, you know, from the Crusades onward or the Spanish Inquisition, you know, whenever you have triumphalist Christian movements that are allied with state power, it goes south for the Jews pretty quickly. In many ways, it's not surprising that, you know, today, the majority of Christian country we live in, as it gets more chauvinist, you know, Judaism has long been kind of the main sort of theological other for Christianity. And so all those tropes are coming back that Jews killed Jesus or, you know, or Jews don't worship the same God that we do. Like, it can be very easy to other Jews as well as obviously, you know, Muslims and, you know, and nonbelievers and every other, you know, and Christians who don't meet their definition of the good Christian. So it's, yeah. I'm Stefan Curry, and this is Gentleman's Cut. I think what makes Gentleman's Cut different is me being a part of developing the profile of this beautiful finished product. With every sip, you get a little something different.

Visit Gentleman's Cut Bourbon.com or your nearest Total Wines or Bevmo. This message is intended for audiences 21 and older. Gentleman's Cut Bourbon, Boone County, Kentucky. Cut Bourbon, please visit gentlemen's cut bourbon.com. Please enjoy responsibly. Hey, I'm Nora Jones, and I love playing music with people so much

that my podcast called Playing Along is back. I sit down with musicians from all musical styles to play songs together in an intimate setting. Every episode's a little different, but it all involves music and conversation with some of my favorite musicians. Over the past two seasons, I've had special guests like Dave Grohl,

Leveh, Mavis Staples, Remy Wolf, Jeff Tweedy, really too many to name. And this season, I've sat down with Black Pumas, Alessia Kara, Sarah McLaughlin, and more. Check out my new episode with John Legend. I feel like, in a lot of ways, our careers are paralleled in some ways,

but they just never intersected for some reason. I know. We should take it slow. We're just ordinary people. We don't know which way to go. Listen to Nora Jones is playing along On the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Honestly, I got to follow me. He can see right through me. Listen to Crimless on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, everybody. It's Chuck and Josh from the Stuff You Should Know podcast, and it's that time of year again when we knuckle down to do our annual holiday episodes. We collected our best past classic holiday episodes and compiled them into a 12 Days of Christmas Toys playlist that the whole family can enjoy.

That's right. you missed it the first time we detailed the history of Beanie Babies, Monopoly, or Yo-Yo's, and a whole lot more. So listen to the 12 Days of Christmas Toys playlist on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So this is maybe a dumb question. Excuse my ignorance, but is Candice Owens a Christian nationalist? Like, would she be classified as such? Yeah, definitely. She's Catholic. I mean, that's the thing. There's, you know, so many varieties of Christian nationalists. But, Yeah, you know, she's definitely called for Christianity to be, you know,

at the center of American public life and for the American social order to be structured by like a far-right vision of Christianity. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay, so I was on the right track there because I did not listen to her interview with Norman Finkelstein, who is a American Jewish professor and writer who has been quite vocal on the Palestine issue and written, you know, a number of books.

But, you know, he's generally seen as on the left. He goes on Candace Owens' podcast and does a very long interview. And I could only stomach the snippets that the Jewish Currents podcast put out. But that's what I was really confused, hearing some of those tropes that she was using. I recognize now that there are Christian nationalist tropes, anti-Semitic tropes, about like Jews wanting to enslave Christians. And I had no idea that people believe these things. Anyway, it's a larger. problem, I guess. But yeah, so Kenneth Owens host, Norman Finkelstein, Tucker Carlson has been repeatedly hosting, like, Palestinian Christians. So there was like a nun and there was a priest. Yeah. So, yeah, what's going on here? How can we explain this kind of merging? Yeah, it's very confusing. When parts of the far right can adopt talking points that sound from one angle to be left wing, you know, in some ways it's it's not just related.

to Israel-Palestine. I mean, you know, Trump ran both times on a kind of economic populist platform. You know, and he also, you know, as he said recently when he met so on Mamdani, he said, we agree on some things. You know, some Bernie Verners went to me. So, you know, the far-right is always trying to kind of, you know, co-ops some sort of, you know, left-wing ideas at times. But yeah, you know, around Palestine, I think since the start of the genocide, you know, maga pundits like Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson have, you know, started to get, you know, very critical of the U.S. Israel relationship, and, you know, some of it is mobilizing, you know, genuine outrage at the images of the genocide and all of our phones every day, obviously. And some of that also is part of this kind of America first. We don't want any of our taxpayer money to fund, you know, foreign wars. And that's, you know, very reasonable and understandable. You know, the way they bring in anti-Semitism is to say, you know, the reason in the U.S. supports Israel, it's not because of imperialism or colonialism, you know, because that would indict their own, you know, nationalism. But, you know, it's because of a Jewish cabal, right? So, you know, they focus on Jewish Zionists in the U.S. and in Israel, obviously, who they think have kind of yet enslaved the U.S. government or their, you know, outsized, you know, global power, you know, over finance and media is the, you know, root cause of the U.S. support for Israel. So that's what they mobilize. And they bring into it a lot of Christian nationalist themes, right? Because if the U.S. is a Christian nation, and here's this state with, you know, a star David on its flag that claims to

speak for world jury, it's easy to kind of then use those Christian tropes and say, oh, this is the same old Jewish enemy, you know, rearing its head again. So yeah, it's a mess, yeah. It's a mess, yeah. Very conveniently removing American complicity from the equation, removing empire from the equation. It's been disturbing, I have to say, obviously on the basic level, like this sounds trite to even say, but obviously like rising anti-semitism has been disturbing. But then it's also been disturbing kind of the, you know, mental gymnastics that are going into some people or like some people are using to justify this turn on the far right, as if the Tucker Carlson's and the Candace Owens of the world, like genuinely care about Palestine, you know.

And so there is this like, this ridiculous assumption that like, oh, we can we can turn people on the right. And I think you see it also with like the discussion that's emerged after Mom Donnie met with Trump. It's like, oh, the, you know, it's not really a left or right. It's a bottom top. I was like, what are we talking about here? What are we talking about? This is not. Yeah. What was your definition of the left exactly? I think we have to remember that these are the same, you know, forces who are, you know, rounding up and deporting our neighbors and who are, you know, jailing, you know, Mahmoud Khalil and somebody in other dissidents. And they, yeah, they want to see a future vision of America that has no room for most of us in it. So it's important to

keep that in mind. Yeah. Yeah. So we have this mess. We have the right wing really trying to weaponize this moment and using allegations of anti-Semitism to attack universities to attack political dissidents, et cetera, et cetera. And then we have kind of the establishment Jewish organizations, organizations like the anti-deformation league, the ADL. What's happening with them? What are they doing in this moment? Yeah, I mean, they're very complicit. You know, the short answer is they're really part of it. I mean, since the first Trump administration, but really long before, I mean, if you want to really, you know, tell the long story of how the ADL has been complicit with empire, it goes, you know, at least back to the 70s, it goes, you know, at least back to the 70s when the ADL was, you know, in the McCarthyist, you know, purges and, you know, supportive.

the state's actions against, you know, the Rosenberg, so we can go way back. But, you know, basically the reason these organizations exist in many ways, like so much of their funding priorities and their programming, you know, has become about, you know, defense of Israel. Like so many American institutions, they're hollowed out. They're not democratic. You know, they don't reflect the priorities of most American Jews. You know, they're, you know, bought and sold by a small donor class. And, you know, so they, you know, have made combating BDS and supporting Israel the entire, you know, focus of their existence. And yeah, you know, somewhere around the last year, the last two years, you know, probably since October 7th, you know, people like Jonathan Greenbl

at the head of the ADL, you know, made the calculation that they're going to go, you know, ride or die on teaming up with whoever they can to suppress, you know, the movement for Palestinian freedom. And so, yeah, they've been cozing up to the, you know, to the trumpet. administration, you know, more than to give them a teeny bit of credit. And the first, you know, Trump administration, you know, they were saying, if there's a Muslim ban, sign me up, was Jonathan Greenblatt's, you know, tweet in 2017. You know, they did put up some resistance, even though they were also still quite bad in a lot of ways. But, you know, now they're just, you know, all in. They're trying to curry whatever access they can to the Trump administration,

even to the extent of taking down their anti-bias initiatives, you know, shuddering a lot of their anti-extremism work, you know, saying like they aren't going to teach critical race theory. You know, they're completely just, you know, trying to keep a seat at the table. But the irony is the MAGN movement doesn't even want them there. You know, some people in the administration are probably still working with the ADL. But, you know, you have FBI director Cash Patel, you know, saying we aren't going to work with you because now they think the ADL is anti-Christian, you know, which is itself kind of anti-Semitic. So it's, yeah, they're kind of in this losing battle where they're trying to ally with, you know,

rising fascism in the hope that they can find Jewish safety that way and, you know, can suppress, you know, Israel's critics. But it's a, it's a fool's bargain. We're seeing that play out in real time right now. I mean, I've never seen such a self-own in my life, like a self-goal, you know, where they defended Elon Musk and the Nazi salute. And then Elon Musk calls them an anti-Christian organization and, like, and calls them out. And I mean, we have all of these kind of outrageous incidents, but the fact that the ADL kind of stepped away from its civil rights work, very clearly stepped away from its civil rights work, they missed the moment. I'm Stefan Curry, and this is Gentleman's Cut.

I think what makes Gentleman's Cut different is me being a part of developing the profile of this beautiful finished product. With every sip, you get a little something different. Visit Gentleman's Cut Bourbon.com. or your nearest Total Wines or Bevmo. This message is intended for audiences 21 and older. Gentleman's Cup Bourbon, Boone County, Kentucky. For more on Gentleman's Cut Bourbon, please visit gendelmanscut bourbon.com.

Please enjoy responsibly. Hey, I'm Nora Jones, and I love playing music with people so much that my podcast called Playing Along is back. I sit down with musicians from all musical styles to play songs together in an intimate setting. Every episode's a little different, but it all involves music and conversation

with some of my favorite musicians. Over the past two seasons, I've had special guests like Dave Grohl, Leveh, Mavis Staples, Remy Wolf, Jeff Tweedy, really too many to name. And this season, I've sat down with Black Pumas, Alessia Kara, Sarah McLaughlin, and more. Check out my new episode with John Legend. I feel like in a lot of ways our careers are paralleled in some ways, but they just never intersected for some reason. I know. We don't know which way you go Listen to Nora Jones is playing along

On the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, Or wherever you get your podcasts Have you ever listened to those true crime shows And found yourself with more questions than answers? And what is this? How is that not a story we all know? What's this you? Where is that? Why is it wet?

Boy, do we have a show for you? From smartless media, campside media, and big money players comes crimeless. Join me, Josh Dean, investigative journalists. And me, Roy Scoville, comedian, as we celebrate the amazing creativity of the world's dumbest criminals. We'll look into some of the silliest ways folks have broken the laws. Honestly, it feels more like a high-level prank than a crime. Who catfishes a city? And meets some memorable anti-heroes.

There are thousands of angry, horny monkeys. If you think she's a witch, and it freaks you out. He has X-rayed vision. How could I not follow him? Honestly, I got to follow me. He can see right through me. Listen to Crimeless on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, everybody, it's Chuck and Josh from the Stuff You Should Know podcast, and it's that time of year again when we knuckle down to do our annual holiday episodes.

We collected our best past classic holiday episodes and compiled them into a little. a 12 Days of Christmas Toys playlist that the whole family can enjoy. That's right. Maybe you missed it the first time we detailed the history of Beanie Babies, Monopoly, or Yo-Yo's, and a whole lot more. So listen to the 12 Days of Christmas Toys playlist on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Jewish Currents has been publishing on this. I mean, lots of people yourself included have been publishing on this about how the ADLs like audit. are skewed, for lack of a better term. I'm wondering if maybe you can speak to that. Yeah, no, that was a great piece by actually the co-author of my book,

Shane Burley, you know, wrote that along with Naomi Bennett, who's another great analyst, you know, really looking at their data and, you know, seeing that, you know, in their 2020, I think it was 2023 audit of anti-Semitic incidents, they included like just a huge, you know, swath of pro-Palestine rallies. If you go to their data, it says, you know, speakers chanted from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free. And so that was an anti-Semitic incident, according to the ADL. And this was, you know, hundreds of incidents, you know,

including some rallies that were led by Jewish voice for peace. So now you have, you know, Jewish groups who are anti-Semitic for, you know, for calling for Palestinian freedom. So it's just, you know, that kind of counting, which is a departure from previous years. So even methodologically, it's, it's very unprofessional. They get to say, oh, there's been a startling rise in anti-Semitism, they're expanding their own parameters for what counts as an incident, you know, so they're kind of cooking their own books, but it has a disservice to the, you know, to the real fight against, you know, anti-Semitism. I think one thing that Shane and Naomi pointed out in that article is that, you know, there is a rise in, in white supremacist

groups, like Patriot Front, you know, who are holding rallies and harassing Jewish institutions, you know, alongside harassing trans folks and black communities and many other groups. And, you know, that's, you know, ironically undercounted in the audit. And if you have data, that equates, you know, real neo-Nazism to people saying Palestine should be free, it's just, you know, discredits the entire fight against anti-Semitism. So it's dangerous to democracy, it's dangerous, you know, to the movement for justice in Palestine, and it's also dangerous for American Jews and our attempt to actually get a grasp on the contours of, you know, anti-Semitism that is rising in this moment.

Yeah, there is always this inflation I see over and over with the far right and people who speak on Palestine issues. I mean, this is not exactly analogous, but Sarah Hurwitz, the Obama speech writer. Oh my God. It was recently gone viral. I'll link the video, but I'll leave people to make their own judgments. But the part that I'm referencing here is when she puts like in the same breath, Nick Fuentes and Al Jazeera reporting. And it's and again, it's this kind of conflation between like actual extremists and people who just happen to say things you'd find uncomfortable saying. And you know, there's also this kind of. kind of friend of discounting Jewish voices that aren't part of the establishment.

So, like, Jewish Voice for Peace is seen as an extremist group and not within the fold, which, of course, gives the far right, including President Trump, the ability to decide who is Jewish enough for their purposes. And when he's annoyed with Chuck Schumer, he calls him a Palestinian, which, by the way, is offensive on many levels to me. Yeah, because I don't want Chuck Schumer to be a Palestinian, but. Yeah, it's just really, really quite a mess. Yeah, you know, I was reminded when you said that of, you know, groups like Canary Mission,

you know, do the same thing. They list, you know, first generation black and brown college students as anti-Semites, and then they list Nick Frente's. And it's, you know, it's a way for them to kind of protect their brand of like, look, we are going after real anti-Semitism. But it's this, you know, totally discredited notion that, you know, anti-Semitism or all extremism really is like, you know, kind of an equal threat on both sides of the political spectrum, that is just, you know, it doesn't meet our moment at all. It's very clear that

anti-Semitism is much stronger and more deadly, you know, on the radical right. And the data supports this, not only in the U.S., but around the world. And yeah, so this kind of, you know, discredited centrist notion that, you know, both sides are equally threatening is just, you know, not suiting us for, not only around anti-Semitism, but it's the same thing you hear from people like Chuck Schumer about extremism, you know, more broadly. So it's not, it's not the way to meet this moment of rising fascism and to say, oh, both sides are bad. It's just very outdated and dangerous. Yeah, it's absolutely obfuscating. Yeah, so for me, like in the bubbles that I live in, I feel like the ADL, because of the last couple of years, has really discredited itself.

And there have been, you know, critics from within kind of the American Jewish, even establishment, I would say. From your perspective, of course, we're going to link your book. So first and foremost, just read Ben and Shane's book, but who do you think is speaking on anti-Semitism in a rigorous way now? Like, Nexus Foundation? Like, who would you say has a better grasp of this situation? Yeah, I think the Nexus, you know, project is very useful. It's a coalition of, you know, academics who, you know, are actually specializing in anti-Semitism. And they have a really rigorous attempt, you know, to really give people guidelines that can help to parse, you know, where anti-Semitism is and where it isn't, and they really stress, you know, in every incident that

you come across, you know, every question you have to pay attention to context and to really take a close look at what people are saying, you know, you know, to separate, you know, as you said earlier, you know, to separate the discomfort that, you know, for example, like a Jewish student, who's Zionist, you know, on a campus, you know, might feel if they hear free Palestine be able to distinguish that discomfort from actual danger or from actual anti-Semitism. So I think they do a really nuanced job at it. You know, there's an organization called Diaspora Alliance that's not always the very public, but they do a lot of important work in helping folks, you know, to grapple with these

issues, especially if you're being, you know, hit with these kind of false charges of anti-Semitism. And then, yeah, I'd say Jewish currents puts out great resources. Yeah, so those are three that I think of that I look to, but I think, you know, right now we need, you know, I go back and forth over, do we need another better ADL? But ultimately, you know, I think we need new institutions and new projects. that are able to look at anti-Semitism in an intersectional way to see the connections between anti-Semitism and anti-Blackness, anti-immigrantzunophobia, you know, to see how anti-Semitism, you know, fuels authoritarianism and makes all this less safe. I think there are some exciting

projects coming down the pike that, you know, people will know about, you know, soon. But I do think we need kind of new institutions and new resources, you know, for this. Yeah, Ariel Angel, the editor-in-chief of Jewish Currents wrote, I don't know, say it feels like a lifetime ago at this point, but about like the need for new Jewish institutions. And I think this is a, you know, from the outside looking in, you know, not my, not my discussion perhaps, but it seems like this is a unnecessary component because there's always this tension between exceptionalizing anti-Semitism and then not meeting the moment or seeing it as part and parcel of fascism connected to other, you know, ideologies as well. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's so often acceptable.

as this kind of unique hatred that's, you know, outside of all history, and it's the oldest hatred, you know, and it's the, you know, the worst hatred right now. There's, you can all these reasons why, you know, not only Jewish leaders, but, you know, leaders of all establishment, you know, bipartisan politics, kind of frame anti-Semitism in this exceptional way, but it doesn't serve anyone. So I do think we need, yeah, like you're saying, like a rigorous ground analysis that puts it in the context of Christian supremacy, of white supremacy, of Islamophobia that traces these, you know, these connections and neither exceptionalizes it, you know, nor minimizes it, but, you know, sees it as part of this fabric of rising

authoritarianism, for sure. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So in the show notes, I'm going to link all the stuff you mentioned as well as, you know, the Asper Alliance and Nexus project work. There's also an academic article if people are interested by Dove Waxman that I find pretty useful. But yeah, I'll put that all in the show notes. Thank you so much, Ben. This has been extremely helpful. Horrifying, but helpful. Yeah, yeah, thanks for having me on. Great talking to you. Take care.

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