It Could Happen Here - Asheville's Crackdown on Mutual Aid Part 2

Episode Date: February 23, 2023

Mia and James talk to Muneeba Talukder if the aclu about the Asheville crackdown on mutual aid. Venmo: @/AVLdefendantfund Avlsurvival on Instagram Avlsolidarity.noblogs.orgSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadowbride. Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of fright. An anthology podcast of modern-day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into tech's elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech

brought to you by an industry veteran with nothing to lose. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts from. On Thanksgiving Day 1999, five-year-old Cuban boy Elian Gonzalez was found off the coast of Florida. And the question was, should the boy go back to his father in Cuba? Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or stay with his relatives in Miami? Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. Listen to Chess Peace, the Eliane Gonzalez story, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, everyone. It's James again. I just wanted to remind you that this is part two of a two-parter and if you haven't listened to yesterday's podcast, today's might not make a lot of sense. So I would suggest starting there. Obviously, you know, you have your own life, do what you want, but you're going to understand today's a lot more if you start with yesterday's. Today we're speaking to Maniba with the ACLU about the legal response to some of the bizarre things that the city of Asheville has been doing. If you hear reference to Pip in this episode, that's because Pip is another of the activists. They weren't able to make our call, but we're going to be speaking to them as well in our ongoing coverage of this.

So I hope you enjoy today's episode and know that we'll keep you updated as this moves forward. So our first guest today is Maniba. And Maniba, would you like to introduce introduce yourself explain your relationship to what we're talking about today? Yeah sure so my name is Maniba Talikdar I'm a staff attorney with the ACLU of North Carolina and I represent some of these wonderful folks that you'll be talking to uh actor me and um it's unfortunate that we met this way um but you know i'm happy to be working with them so basically i can go into it or do you want to ask me questions about it or i think it'd be great if you could start off by sort of walking us through how mutual aid seems to have met with

this bizarre uh prosecution yeah of course um so we got connected to um you know our now clients um the group of individuals who um you know have been doing important advocacy and mutual aid work on behalf of unhoused folks in Asheville. And we were connected by this other organization called Center for Constitutional Rights and kind of filled in quickly about how this group of people were not only banned from parks, but these bans were based on this absurd criminal charge called felony littering, which, you know, it sounds as crazy as it is. as it is. So, yeah, you know, I think my colleagues and I at the ACLU, we were eager to talk to these folks and learn more about what happened and see what we can do and, you know, start talking about some of the legal issues that arise from when a city tries to ban a large group of people from one of the few places that they have to convene and to protest and demonstrate, have to convene and to protest and demonstrate, which, you know, one of the first things I learned in law school is like, how, or like one of the first things I think I learned as someone living in the U.S., like you, you always hear kids say, oh, I have free speech. Like, you know, free speech is like so, it's such a central part of

being in this, or like growing up in this country and being a citizen or a member of this country is just the way that it's thrown around sometimes inaccurately but people generally know that that speech should be protected um and cannot be restricted except in very narrow ways by the government um not by like you know your mom you don't have um free speech in front of your mom like that's not i learned that quick um yeah when i took my being an american test i took like i became a citizen a couple of months ago and uh there's like only like 50 questions they can ask you and i think two of them are like what is free speech like who like yeah yeah can you claim free speech when uh you get banned from Twitter.com? Like, yeah, it's something that's very integral. Yeah, and I think, you know, it's absurd to criminalize protest, of course.

But it's also like equally as troubling to take away this important public space from people that, you know, especially in a city like Asheville, if you've been there, it's one of the few public spaces that people can convene and get together and enjoy each other's company. You know, that being separate from also one of the few places that you can protest and engage in discussion about how to fix problems. So it's really troubling that the city of Nashville had taken that route. So when the ACLU got involved, we thought it would be best to list out some of these legal issues. You know, I mentioned the First Amendment and free speech,

but there are also a lot of procedural due process problems that are issues that come up when you ban folks from a park. One of the things that the city didn't do is provide proper notice. So a few of our clients never received notice that they were banned from the park and, you know, found out that they were banned either through the discovery process and their criminal cases or or by doing like very intense investigation of their own, which, you know, that is not a, that's just not okay. Like a city needs to, you need to, this is like a very basic thing, right? Notice and hearing, those are the tenets of procedural due process. And the city fails there. The city then fails again at providing hearing and providing opportunity to appeal these bans. There is no pre-deprivation hearing, first of all. The bans, once our clients receive them, they're banned.

the parks and cannot go and don't have, didn't have any opportunity to defend why they shouldn't be banned or be heard about why they shouldn't be banned before that ban happened, which is, you know, it's not okay. I think a pre-deprivation hearing is really important when you're taking away an interest, like the First Amendment interest that I laid out. And then the hearing that was provided was problematic in a lot of ways. For one, these were very short cursory hearings that lasted from, I want to say, like five to 30 minutes, but I'll let Sarah and Pip confirm. And they had people from Asheville Police Department who are, you know, arguably also involved in the criminal cases that several of our clients are still battling through. They were not allowed to ask questions. And, you know, several of our clients do not have the resources to have proper legal representation. So sometimes our clients were there alone and had to fend for themselves and navigate that tricky area of not saying something that could hurt you in your criminal case.

And, you know, the hearing was just a mess in all of the ways. a mess in all of the ways how does the city like legally justify banning someone from parks like is there a like a way which they can do that so they have this policy called the restricted access to city parks policy and it is i think we should call it the park ban policy. It basically allows the city to ban folks from parks based on certain violations. I think the categories are city park rules, city parks and recreation department program rules, city ordinances, state laws, and federal laws. So what's interesting is there is no, there's nowhere in the policy that says when a person has committed or that defines what a violation of any of these rules are. Like, is that a conviction? Is that a formal like citation? The policy does not provide that. So this is important, I think, especially here where our clients, none of them, or actually I shouldn't say none of them. Three of our clients have pled to lesser misdemeanor charges, but everyone else has an open case and they have not been formally convicted of anything. it's strange that you know you can ban someone based off of um the felony charge that hasn't

even been fully uh litigated yeah have they banned is there like a record of the city banning people from parks or have they just like dug this one up from the bowels of legislation to ban these people? Oh, that's a really interesting question. And I'd love to know the answer myself. We did submit a public records request to try to figure out if they have. But I imagine the city is not going to want to tell us. And I think, Sarah, you can speak to this later, but I don't think they have,

I think they've rejected PRRs that you all have done and have not provided that elusive, restricted access list, which they have of like folks that they've banned from the parks. And maybe that list is just you know our clients which yeah i mean maybe they have i don't know what's worse like if they have a parks blacklist and they're just not notifying people uh until like they send a SWAT team after

them or if it's if it's only people who are helping unhoused people and they just don't admit that both those are pretty dark. Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter? Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters

to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows. As part of My Cultura podcast network. Available on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how tech's elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel winning economists to leading journalists in the field. And I'll be digging

into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com.

On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian, Elian. Elian Gonzalez.

Elian, Elian. Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home

and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives with him. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian González story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the topic of weird legal things, what on earth is felony littering? I'd love to know. I'd love to know what felony littering is because um i'll tell you this when i told my partner like i was like oh did you know there's something called felony littering and he's like i hope that's when corporations get punished for you know dumping toxic waste into the sea but no it's apparently when community members come together for a demonstration and the city is mad about what's left behind which

you know that's I think it's really telling that the city has chosen to, to prosecute folks on this like felony littering charge, which, you know, has, I think in the past 10 years, there's only been one felony littering case out of Buncombe County where Asheville is okay so i think that's really telling and i i think it's it's really troubling that the city of ashville seems to be really taking out a position in silencing speech it does not like yeah there's a fellow yeah go ahead no they just seem to be taking like the most bizarre

and run around the first amendment that they can yeah it reminds me a lot of reminds me a lot of like the occupy era stuff where like all of these cities suddenly realized that like wait hold on these people can actually use a park for political activity and then immediately like suddenly all these like ordinances started appearing where like everyone has to like clear out of the park by 10 p.m so they can clean it or something that eventually just like was used to force people out and i don't know it seemed like there's something interesting too about like it seems like it's it's almost whenever like a city government tries to do something like this it seems like they always like immediately reach for sanitation ordinances like yeah i'm saying

that was like the big occupy thing like they're doing this here too it's i don't know i think all around the country we're seeing um the government fish out these weird ordinances and make new laws to to criminalize poverty and um and to criminalize unhoused people existing. And I think that trend, unfortunately, carries even in places like Asheville that are seeing, especially after COVID, there's been a rise in unhoused population everywhere. And so it's really upsetting, but it is the truth that these ordinances and laws that are being fished out are being fished out to target folks and new laws that lawmakers are creating. Now I was thinking about this, I'm remembering

there's a whole sort of anthropological literature about how colonial states used sanitation ordinances as a way to sort of destroy indigenous public spaces and the places they colonized. And I guess, yeah, I don't know, there's a lot of throughput, I guess like, yeah, I don't know, like there's there's a lot of sort of. Throughput, I guess, between like the sort of old colonial. Governance regimes and the way that people still use sanitation is like the default way to sort of cleanse people out of public spaces. I think it's interesting how like.

An analogy one can make me is that there are people with rights and people without rights even when in theory we all have rights and and like this attempt to sort of yeah use sanitation to be like oh these people's rights don't matter or they don't have those rights at all yeah it's not not linked to the way uh like metropoles rule colonies. I think also just, you know, going back to this position that the city of Asheville is taking, what's really troubling is like the different angles that they're coming at this issue with. Like, if you look at, you know, if you look at some of the press releases and blog posts on the city's website about the unhoused population, you might get the sense that they're trying to find solutions to address what they seem to

acknowledge as a big problem. But then, you know, on the flip side, you see these actions that directly contradict that sentiment and, you know, these park fans, that's, that's one of the ways that, um, the city of Asheville kind of indirectly is like, no, please, like, let us do our thing. We don't want to hear anything bad about what we're doing. Like we're trying our

hardest you know that's rich on its own but you know there's so there's the felony littering charges there's the park ban and then you know alongside all of this like a few weeks ago we we filed a petition in buncombe County Superior Court petitioning for the release of police body camera footage of the arrest of two journalists for the release of the footage that shows the arrest of these journalists covering the eviction of encampments of unhoused folks in Aston Park on Christmas night in 2021. So around the same time that several of our clients are being hit with these felony charges and then shortly after with park bans. these felony charges and then shortly after with park bans. And the rest of journalists in a democracy is very, or should be very rare and should be troubling. And these journalists, like just to give you some context, were not shy about their critique of the city and how it's handling the unhoused community. And that critique is protected by the First Amendment.

But the city of Asheville, I think, is just, you know, doing its own thing when it's allowing arrests of journalists. And the release of that body camera footage, we think, is important to just show what what happened because that's that's that's kind of strange like just in the same way that felony littering is strange yeah that does seem like there is there is kind of a bipartisan commitment to not wanting journalists to meddle with you harassing unhoused people it seems to be like very much a democrat thing as well as a republican thing what did were those journalists charged with anything or were they just arrested they were also charged with um

i want to say second degree trespass um and they've been pretty vocal about their arrests and I think what's been happening, like their names are Veronica Coit and Matilda Bliss. I'm not sure, Sarah, if you want to add more to that, but I think that's like another thread that's important to this story is like all of the different ways that Asheville is operating to silence folks and to continue doing what they're doing, which, you know, like if you look at what they're doing, which, you know, like, if you look at just their own narrative, where they talk about, oh, yes, we've, you know, evicted these folks as a success story. And, you know, like, they'll maybe list, like, all of the hotels, like, free hotel nights that um these folks got for one or two nights but that's obviously not a sustainable solution to um to you know the plight of that community yeah certainly and yeah i think sometimes things get done because things look good on a press release rather than because it gives anyone like long-term access to housing. So I wonder, what's the situation?

Several of your clients are now facing... Felony charges are serious, right? If people maybe aren't in the US or don't realize, maybe you could explain. A felony follows you around for the rest of your life, right? Yeah, and just to be clear, the ACLU is not defending on the criminal charges. I think all of our clients have separate representation for their criminal charges. We've taken on the charge of addressing these park bans and how we think they're constitutional so i'm sure like i can i can speak a little to this but you know i i think um you know maybe getting uh getting one of the criminal defense

attorneys to talk if they can about the criminal case might be more helpful for sure yeah maybe can you explain just in general terms um like what a felony would mean for someone living in north carolina in terms of just how it would affect their life going forward yeah so there's there's a lot i think you know um sorry i'm not a crippled lawyer but let me just think of a few things. a country and state that is still looking and, you know, allowing background checks for certain jobs and having to explain that in any context. Like, I will just, you know, you know, let me just talk from my own experience where I've, whenever I am getting admitted to a bar, I've moved a couple of times in the past few years and had to deal

with the unfortunate process of being admitted into that state's bar. There are several intrusive questions and many of those involve like what kind of what your background is and that means what your criminal background is like we have to do um like I have gone through the moral character fitness test for three states now and um it's never fun it's you know as someone who is privileged and does not have a criminal history background it's not fun for me because i like the the number of questions they ask you it's like you really like you know have to dig back into the past like your whole life like they ask all of the addresses that you've lived at in in the past 15 years and if you get it wrong you're lying so you okay, I'm going off on a tangent.

But the point is like any sort of certification or job or new opportunity, that is something, a criminal record is something that's looked at and considered and oftentimes in a negative way and can result in people not getting jobs. I think Sarah and like other, Sarah and Pip maybe can explain more

about like what the consequences would be like if you've had conversation with your attorneys. But I also have some background in immigrants' rights work, and I know that any kind of criminal charges slash convictions that you're facing can be used by ICE, can be used by USCIS to deny you immigration privileges

and to deport you, to detain you before they deport you. And so, you know, beyond that, like having to have this hang over your head where the the process is not short. It's not easy. It is mentally taxing. And it's honestly degrading to go through our criminal legal system. And it's degrading for everyone. And I mean, that's all I can say as like someone who who does general civil rights work. But if you talk to someone who's doing criminal defense work and in this all the time, I'm sure they can paint a better picture of how dark that process is and how dark it can be to have that on a record. Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter. Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows presented by i I heart and Sonora.

An anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows

as part of My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how tech's elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, better offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse

and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand

what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba.

He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well.

Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I think another thing with this is, okay, I am not a lawyer. I'm also not your lawyer, legal advice, et cetera, et cetera. but i'm pretty sure the way it works north carolina is that if you if you have a felony conviction you can't vote until you serve out the time jesus so yeah like in country yeah yeah so that's that's another thing and um i'm fairly

muted in north carolina i moved here in March so almost a year but not quite so but I do know that the the hoops that you have to jump through just to vote are a lot more than other states that I've lived in and um you know of course that is um that is also another thing done on purpose to silence certain voices. Yeah, that's dark. And certainly, like, you'll lose your Second Amendment rights, there'll be jobs you can't do, there will be things you don't have access to.

Like, yeah, your rights will go away potentially forever, which is bad when you're just trying to help some people who need some help. It's pretty unconscionable. Yeah, I think that's the other like really wild thing about all of this is like a lot the folks that are you know being banned and being targeted on this way are providing really important services in in a way that the city hasn't been able to and hasn't. And it's filling in this really important role of making sure that folks stay alive

and have support and are fed and clothed. And it's unfortunate to have that taken away. Being banned from a park means being banned from one of the few spaces that our clients had to do this work and where they were able to distribute food and other aid to folks who don't have a home and it's just it's wild that that kind of action is being taken when when we know that this is a crisis that the city is just not addressing yeah they're like taking action against people pointing to the crisis rather than the crisis itself which is yeah very sad so what what state is your i know you have to go in a second here what state is your like you said the aclu was challenging the park ban how is that how's that gone for you so so far we've sent a demand letter to the city the city has responded to that letter

with um right now kind of wishy-washy commitments of like reviewing the policy. And while I think that's a great first step, I do think the city needs to commit to doing more and to commit to retracting the bans for all of our clients and potentially others who have been affected by this policy. They also need to change the policy, like reviewing the policy. That's a great first step, but, you know, I want to see, like, what are the things that they are building in to make sure that folks are getting proper notice, that this policy isn't being abused and used by um Asheville Police Department and others in an unfair way and that there's like you know basic standards of like when the policy can be instituted like is there a conviction involved and what are the convictions like does it make it doesn't make sense to ban someone from a park for, I don't know, like, I'm trying to think of like something. Oh, felony illiterate.

Yeah, it's just so bizarre. Like it's clown stuff. It is bizarre. And I think like like you know historically park bans from what i know is like they've been used against like people who have committed like sexual offenses and um and so it's kind of it's kind of out of left field to, and, and I'll just say this that the city, like we're in their response. They cited to one of the cases that are two cases that involved sexual offenders who are banned from parks, which, you know,

peaceful demonstrators who provided aid to folks who are unhoused. So, you know, it's not really there. The comparison is not there. And I think, I hope the city can be honest. And if they are not willing to put in that work and to take some of these actions that I've laid out, that work and and to take some of um these actions that i've laid out i do think that we will continue to challenge these park bands and um you know we'll continue to prepare to file suit if that's necessary great and how can people follow along with that or if they want to sort of donate or support it is there a place they can do that um you know our website um is a great space

to our website I think our socials like twitter um and instagram like our comms team is amazing and they update on our work frequently and often and um and we try to we try to provide updates there, but also kind of engage with our work and what it means broadly for folks across North Carolina and across the US. So, yeah. Great. And that's just ACLU North Carolina. Those would be the socials. Yeah, let me look it up. I should know this. It's fine. So it's ACLUofNorthCarolina.org

and if you go to our website you'll find our socials but it's probably a very cheap site. Yeah, wonderful. Well, thank you so much for giving us some of your time. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, that was great. Thank you. Bye. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media.

For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. An anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturno on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast. And we're kicking off our second season digging into Tex Elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech brought to you by an industry veteran with nothing to lose. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts from. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, five-year-old Cuban boy Elian Gonzalez was found off the coast of Florida. And the question was,

should the boy go back to his father in Cuba? Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or stay with his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story,

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.