It Could Happen Here - Bosnia and the Path to Genocide Part 2

Episode Date: November 12, 2021

Part 2 of our interview with Arnesa Kustura in which we discuss the current situation in Bosnia and the danger that it poses Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadowbride. Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of fright. An anthology podcast of modern-day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What could happen here? A podcast about bad things happening and how they can continue to happen if you don't stop them. I'm your host Christopher Wong and today we're doing part two of the interview with genocide expert Arnesa Kustra focusing on the absolutely horrifying

things that have been happening in Bosnia recently. Here's the interview, hope you enjoy. Can you give an explanation of what's happened in the last couple of weeks because it's terrifying and I don't think enough people are talking about it. Yeah. I mean, yeah. So that's, where are we now? You know, I'm just going to talk briefly about the Dayton agreement. Cause I think the audience needs to understand what the Dayton agreement is. And I was going to talk about it earlier, but I went off on a tangent. So my apologies. So obviously, you know, where the war is happening, the genocide is happening. Strayburn said 1995, the worst of the genocide

happens, you know, 8,000 people are killed in just a matter of a few weeks, few days, really. The international community does not act at that time towards the end of the year another attack happens in Sarajevo and Markala civilians are once again targeted waiting for bread fruit I think it was humanitarian aid at the market and that's kind of when the international community starts to open their eyes a bit and negotiations start. And not to worry with the details, the negotiation process was absolutely ridiculous. And every single time they discussed it, it was about splitting Bosnia down ethnic lines. And that's ultimately what happened with the Dayton Agreement.

Yes, peace, quote unquote, peace was achieved, but the Dayton Agreement mandated so that there would be a three-member presidency. So instead of having one president, we would have a three-member presidency. It's a rotating presidency. There would be a Croat representative, a Bosniak representative, and a Serb representative. That also means that there's no representatives for anyone who's an other, whether they identify as Yugoslav, Roma, Jewish, Bosnian, but not Bosniak. There's no space for the other in this constitution, the state and peace agreement, but that's for another day. They also split the country down by ethnic lines.

So all of those genocides and ethnic cleansing that the Serbs had just been committing all over Eastern Bosnia up in the North, you know, basically the international community said, good job. Here's your own territory that you ethnically cleanse. So they split the country down, you know, these ethnic lines. And, you know, the war stops.

And then now we have to sort of contend with this, you know, peace agreement with the new constitution. We get this called the OHR, the Office of the High Representative. The high representative is basically a person who holds the highest power in the country. They're not a Bosnian. They're actually kind of they're put in place there by the international community. So the OHR kind of, you know, comes then breaks us up when we're squabbling

over issues and this has been anything from things like the flag like the the new flag of Bosnia the the flag of Bosnia that was the flag of Bosnia had to sort of be replaced because the OHR deemed that it would be you know offensive to the Serbs or the Croats. And the same thing with like the national anthem. So they hold a lot of power. Now, just recently, we switched OHR representatives. So we have a new high representative before it was Valentin Ninsko. before it was Valentininsko. And his final kind of part of his, you know, time as the high representative was to enact a law against genocide denialism, which the Bosnians have

really been campaigning for for years, because, you know, I think in your birthplace, in the place where the worst crime ever could, you know, happen to you, happen to you, where, you know, 50,000 women were raped, 100,000 people were killed, 600 plus mass graves were, you know, dug up to hide the crimes and the massacres. People want to be able to, you know, know the truth and feel safe with the truth. So the genocide denialism law was good, but this is kind of when things started to, you know, shift a bit, because I think Dodik came out, Milad Dodik, who is currently the Serb member of the presidency,

who controls Republika Srpska, which is the entity that's considered the Serb entity. But Bosniaks also live there as well. He came out and he said, well, if they pass the genocide denialism law, we're going to secede within eight days.

And obviously that didn't happen. And here's the thing. Milorad Zardek has been threatening secession for years now this is not anything new what is new is the fact that this time he seems to talk not just talk and threaten about seceding but actually has started to kind of draw up the papers. And not to legally secede, which he's not allowed due to the Dayton Agreement, but he has drawn up the papers to start pulling out of all the national level. So, you know,

Bosnia is the country, Republika Srpska is an entity, the Federation is an entity, but both of them are accountable to the national sort of state level institutions. He's basically at this point, you know, been saying, I'm going to, Republika Srpska deserves, we're leaving. Like we're going to form our own army. Yeah. We're going to pull out all the Bosnian state institutions. We're going to pull out all the Bosnian state institutions. We're going to have Serb-only courts, Serb-only lawyers, Serb-only justices, Serb-only, I don't know, passport, whatever, control. Serb, basically anything that was at a national level, whether that's like a healthcare institution or like, I don't know, procurement for supplies for the office,

they're going to have it as like serve only. Obviously I think the danger is right there. Serve only. Where have we heard that before? We heard that in the 90s. And the biggest sort of red flag has really been this thing about them forming the Republican Serbs got our army. And they're not even talking about forming a new army. He specifically stated the words reforming the Republika Srpska army. Now, the Republika Srpska army, you know, was led by Karadzic and Mladic in the 1990s. These are the same people that put girls as young as 10 and 12 years old into rape camps, that killed babies as old as, you know, a few months, that killed, you know, elderly women as old as 100 years old.

You know, these were the guys that were going village to village, city to city, killing, torturing, bombing the hell out of Sarajevo. These were the guys that, you know, would throw like 3,000 to 4,000 mortar shells on Sarajevo and snipe it, I don't even know how many times, like tens of thousand times per day. It's just, these are the bad guys, basically. So I think there is an alarm right now going in Bosnia. And it is the reason why so many of us are quite worried, quite frightened, because on one hand, he has threatened, the international community has somewhat gotten involved. You know, the U.S. has sanctioned him. The U.K. has scolded him. The EU has said, like, you got to chill out.

Otherwise, you know, Serbia doesn't get into the EU. You know, there's always been some sort of, I don't know, influence there. The OHR's influence as well. some sort of, I don't know, influence there, the OHR's influence as well. But in recent years, the international community has not stood by its responsibility to the Dayton Agreement. I mean, here's the thing, they implemented this agreement. They made it so that we, the Bosnians, have to abide by it. But they also have a responsibility to ensure that it is actually being upheld and that they're doing their job in two, the international community was to work on finding a more permanent solution that will bring about actual sort of reconciliation and justice and all of these things. But they didn't. They've left sort of Bosnia to kind of live on its own. And now they're not really doing much.

I mean, the EU, the US, they're doing their typical thing of strongly worded open letters. And Dodik seems less afraid than ever before. He seems very brash. I mean, he is a fool and a half and an ultra nationalist. But right now I feel like he has so much confidence. And I think he also knows that like the U S and the EU have so many bigger problems to worry about rather than Bosnia. And so we're just not a priority so he can play around with it. And then we're also, you know, seeing like the secretary of state,

Matthew Palmer hanging out with him the day after this man openly stated on national television that he is reforming and they're being very cozy and very friendly and stuff like that and here's the thing I've never been really a big believer on the international community because come on like I have

the experience speaks for itself I've already lived lived their help and i'm like no thanks please stay away but i don't live in that world i live in a world where you know i'm from a small country that is unfortunately very dependent on outsiders and on the international community so while i would love to say well fuck, fuck the EU, fuck the US, we don't need them. The reality is that we do need them.

We do need them to do their jobs. And because if they don't, I am really worried that the situation is going to continue to escalate further and further. And this appeasement of Dadik, especially in the last several years, has gone on so much that at this point, I think you have to like start to wonder, like, do these, does the international community, you know, even want peace and stability in Bosnia? Or did they benefit from our constant instability? And what is their long-term plan? So that's kind of where we're at right now. I think there's, you know, there's the people

in Bosnian politics and activist circles right now who are calling on US leadership or calling on EU leadership. And there's a lot of, oh no, the EU sucks. The US will help us. The US sucks. The EU will help us. Turkey is going to help us. No, Turkey sucks. There's a lot of, oh, no, the EU sucks. The US will help us. The US sucks. The EU will help us. Turkey is going to help us. No, Turkey sucks. There's a lot of disagreement. I think the reality is that, oh, my God, does it suck that we are in this position where we have to rely on external sources? Because once again, we are feeling alone.

Once again, we're sort of being backed into a corner. And once again, we're being threatened being backed into a corner. And once again, we're being threatened with a prospect of, you know, a new war. And I think the reality is the minute, the minute that he gives that green light for that Republic of Saskatchewan army to be formed, there will be violence. And we've seen what happened before. We cannot afford to even have one act of violence. We cannot afford to have even one person injured, let alone die, because these people in Bosnia on all sides have suffered so unbelievably much. still burying their loved ones 26 years later. They still haven't, you know, found that peace. They're worried and scared for their future. And they deserve so much more. They really, really do. So I think, you know, I'm hoping and praying that, you know, we obviously continue talking about this issue. And we try to pressure those people in power to, you know, actual

multi-ethnic united country that's not broken up across ethnic, you know, lines, and it's not ethnically segregated, we're going to continue being in the situation. So yes, for right now, I think let's talk about this and let's kind of pressure those powerful people. But really, long term, it's time to start thinking about ending the Dayton Agreement and it's time to start thinking about actually building that you know multi-ethnic, multicultural, multi-religious country that we fought for. Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter?

Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters, to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Apple Podcasts, or genocide you get you're like yeah and i think you know like that's that's that's that's that's a very classical

you know that that's what europeans do right it's like yeah they come in they support ethno-nationalists and it's like you know they don't want this like they don't actually want like a a a a functioning multi-ethnic multiracial society because you know oh oh the horror wait hold on what if other people look at that and go wait why why do we have like yeah i think that i don't know i i think you see this both you know back back in what they were originally doing in the 90s and you know they come in later and they're like oh hey look we're heroes we uh helped them do the genocide and then kind of sort of did something maybe later and i think like yeah i don't know just the the possibility of that happening again the possibility of it just being you know this is it's like oh hey we have bosnia

this this is where we do press tours for like why the american army is good and like fuck anyone else who actually lives there is just yeah i mean like come on dear america like let's be honest here like i'm not saying they're an all-powerful entity but what i am saying is that if they really wanted to the people who are in power would not be in power right like yeah but these people people like dodik people like dragan chovich who is the croatian ethno-nationalist leader who is also by the way directly involved in this mess and and once again we're seeing that thing of the 90s of, you know, Croatia and Serbia want to split Bosnia up and, you know, break it for themselves, basically. That's, you know, it's just now instead of Franjo Tudjman and Milošević, it's now Čorvić and, you know, Dodik. I talk about Dodik a lot more because I think he's a more immediate threat.

But it's important that we don't forget that Bosnia is also facing the Croatian threat as well. And, you know, but I think about it this way, like, I know for a fact that if these people did not benefit the system, somehow, they would not actually be in power. Yeah, but they do, they do benefit them. And I think, you know, you know, Madeleine Albright called Milena Dodik a breath of fresh air in the 90s when he came to power. And then and now here we are, you know, Dodik threatening war and threatening secession and talking about Serb only, you know, spaces and Serb only armies. And it's just it's exhausting. But, yeah, armies and it's just oh it's exhausting but yeah it's it's also funny it is funny when you think about it because the reality is that it doesn't it never had to be like this and it doesn't have to be like this in the future either

but unfortunately it will continue to be like this because that's just you know what the powerful want like what those actually who have some power want and that's the thing that sucks because when you you know i feel like i'm starting to sound conspiratorial but i'm not um you know when you when you think about like europe overall and how they looked at Bosnia, I think, for the last, you know, 100 years and their policy towards Bosnia. It's really difficult for me to kind of be filled with any sort of confidence about what their plans are, you know. Yeah, I mean, it's Europe and the United States,

two countries that historically have never done anything bad, have never done any genocides and have never, yeah, just absolutely annihilated countries. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just, you know, they're the good guys. So like you said, you know, Bosnians, there are so much is like this press tour for, you know, these politicians to come and to talk about why we're such a great example of the peace process when we're really we're not, you know these politicians to come and talk about why we're such a great example of the peace process when we're really we're not you know and the thing is though you know they'll come on and they'll say well while dayton wasn't perfect it was the best solution at the time and it's like it was not yeah you know but but they have convinced that themselves that this was like a

win for intervention and win for the international community. Now, don't get me wrong. I, alongside everyone I know, is extremely happy that the war ended and that the genocide ended. And I think until you're in that position of growing up in the midst of, you know, all these bombs and murders and tortures in the midst of, you know, all these bombs and murders and tortures all around you. And, you know, the only sound you ever hear are the sounds of bombs and mortars falling and snipers shooting at you. You won't really know how it feels when that finally stops and when you have some peace and how difficult it can be to think about, obviously, any future sort of prospects of war.

And I think that also is a contributing factor to the overall instability of Bosnia, because for 26 years now, our policy as a people, but as a country as well, has been as long as there's no shooting which is not a sound policy because you know settling for the bare minimum is not helping any of us our youths are leaving in observed absurd amounts to germany to austria to the united states People are struggling for jobs. People are struggling to find food. All of these things on top of the threat of war and violence and conflict.

So it's just, it's not a sound policy and I'm just hoping it will change eventually somehow. I'm going to keep doing my part, which is yelling at people on Twitter and in person and pressuring them to do the right thing and to obviously talk about this.

But, yeah, I just feel like we have such a long, long, long, long road ahead of us. And, you know, peace is a process. It's a process. So I think we're just at the beginning of that process. Yeah. So much more to do. Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill.

Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter. Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonorum. An anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters, to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network,

available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I think that's a good place to end on. The realization that... I think that's a good place to end on. The realization that, yeah, I mean, if there's no fundamental change in the structures and the forces and in the politics that created a war, that created genocide, like, it's going to happen again. Yeah. And so you have to actually change it. You can't just sort of put this bandaid on it and put it in stasis and just leave all the structures intact you have to you know you

have to knock them over before you can build something else yeah absolutely yeah well anessa thank thank you so much for talking with me um where can people find you and what books do you want to read because as as as we've said over and over again on this podcast, do not get your information from podcasts. Actually read books. This is the thing you need to do. Yeah. Well, if you, obviously I know our audience can't see it, but here's my little, one of my little selections of books on Bosnia. Obviously people can find me on Twitter, on Bosnia. Obviously, people can find me on Twitter. Type in my name, A-R-N-E-S-A, but my at is at R-R-R-R-N-E-S-S-A. Yeah, Twitter's probably the best place. But also, I have a book out, so if people want to read it, it is about the Bosnian genocide,

and it is based on real life experiences of my family and friends. It's called Letters from Diaspora. It's more so on the emotional side of things, but if you want to learn about the conflict from a leftist perspective, I always recommend, I don't know where it's going now, but I always recommend Bosnia, Kosovo, and Yugoslavia by Mike Karadzicis. It's the Marxist perspective on the breakup of Yugoslavia. Additionally, I have a PDF on my Twitter of tons of books so if you want to learn more about Yugoslavia about Islam and the Baltans

about the history of Bosnia about the war genocide feel free to shoot me a DM I have a handy little guide that I hand out constantly to people and there's also a list of books on my website and stuff like that. Yeah.

I think I can post it. We can put a link to it in the description. I've, I've read some stuff on there. It's very good. You should read it. Thanks. I pride myself on really good reading list.

Yeah. Depending on topic. Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. So thank you again. And yeah, this, this has been, it could happen here. Yeah, well, Arnessa, thank you again. Yeah, this has been

It Could Happen Here. Find us at ItCouldHappenHerePod on Twitter and Instagram. The rest of the shows that we do are invited at the Cool Zone on the same places.

And yeah, oh boy. Genocide bad. Hope there's no more work to stop them. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources.

Thanks for listening. You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow. Join me, Danny Trails, and step into the flames of right. An anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturno on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.