It Could Happen Here - Cascadia Forest Defense

Episode Date: December 6, 2021

We talk with Climate and Forest Defense organizers about resistance to disaster capitalist post fire logging. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Robert, do you want to grunt so we can start the podcast? I think we should just start the podcast with you asking, Robert, do you want to grunt so we can start the podcast? That seems avant-garde. I don't know what avant-garde means, but this is It Could Happen Here, a podcast about how things are falling apart and how maybe they don't always need to be falling apart. Maybe we could do better. Speaking of doing better, you know one thing that sometimes helps us do better?

Getting in the face of people fucking shit up and being like, hey, that's not cool. Don't be doing that. Garrison, that's your lead-in. Take it from here. Yeah, hi. So I've been trying to keep a better job of following ecological defense movements happening both in the States

and in other countries. I know there was there was a big one up in canada recently there was a huge one in germany too just the other day yeah um i know the one the one in canada there's a uh the uh i forget i forget what the actual uh indigenous group is called um maybe maybe someone else Oh, the House of Saute? Saute? The people who took back their

land and blocked the road off and now they are... The Unistoten. The Unistoten and the Wet Suiden. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, thank you. There we go. Yeah, basically taking their land back and blocking off the road, and now RCMP is getting called in, and we'll see how that develops.

Yeah, and in Guatemala, there's protests against Canadian mining in a Maya indigenous community that have gotten pretty heavily militarized at this point. That's fun. There's a lot of stuff. There's a lot of stuff on the ecological defense side of things. Including

the Pacific Northwest here with all of the forests and such in this area. Part of this exploration into ecological defense, I wanted to talk with some people who are a little bit more well-versed

in this type of thing than I am. So two people have agreed to talk with us, Sam and Kat, both people who work on this kind of thing from an activism standpoint. Yeah, say hi. Hello. Hey, y'all. standpoint um yeah say hi hello hey y'all uh so very very thankful that they are going to be talking with us today so i thought we could we could probably just start by kind of discussing what forest defense is and how it kind of has a history specifically in this area but but kind of more broadly like if people listened to the earth first episodes you know that kind of that covered like anti-pipeline stuff but we we didn't really get much into like forest defense and you know like the traditional like tree sits and that kind of thing um so so yeah what's what's up with defending the forest what's what's what's going on with that um yeah thanks for that great intro um

i mean forest defense is i I think, probably the most characteristic type of direct action in this bioregion. And we're talking from Cascadia right now. I actually moved out here from the East Coast 10 years ago specifically to get involved with forest defense because this place has an incredibly rich history of people basically just throwing down, risking life and limb to stop chainsaws from taking down some of the oldest and most special forests out here. And so I'd say, you know, Forest Defense Direct Action is in a lot of ways rooted right here in this bioregion. And obviously, like all kinds of movements, things have changed over the course of time. things have changed over the course of time. Back in the 80s and 70s when forest defense was really, really kicking up and stopping old growth logging specifically out here when it was kind of

like rampant old growth clear cutting. It really took the shape of trying to focusing on ecology, focusing on the integrity of these ecosystems and basically like doing everything possible to stop the chainsaws. And now, obviously, a lot has changed. We have the Northwest Forest Plan and some policies which are doing better to kind of like protect old places and old forests. But at the same time, the same shit is happening. You know, the timber industry is great at using euphemisms to kind of cover up its clear cuttingcutting anyways and finding policy loopholes to target some incredible places. And now I think where we're at with like the direct action movement is we're in the context of climate change. So we're not just defending forests for the sake of these like incredible ecological strongholds, but we're also defending

them because we recognize that forest defense is climate defense. This is a like environmental justice issue. It's a human issue. It's a community issue. And so now direct action, I think, is happening not just in the name of our forest, but in the name of our communities and our future. But it's just as rich now as it has ever been. ever been. And especially right now, and especially since the 2020 fires, which I know we'll get into, people have been throwing down all over this fire region to protect what's left of our forests. Yeah. And I think it's good to get into kind of how the fires have impacted this, because one of the shady things that has been done is we had, I think most people in the country are aware, Oregon had unprecedented wildfires this year, And we had unprecedented wildfires last year. And we're going to have unprecedented wildfires every year for a while.

And whenever these fires run through, they don't destroy every tree in their wake, but they char them. And logging companies then come in under the guise of like, well, we have this area safe so that like the fires don't burn here next year so we got to cut down all of these trees um and and clear cut this part of area of public forest so like as you're driving around in forests that you used to be able to do stuff in you'll find areas that are just like blocked off because mining companies are coming or logging companies are coming through and clear cutting all of these trees that could very easily recover from the fire or that weren't even burned by it. But we're just like in this area that they said, OK, well, we have to clear this out in order to make it safe. And it's kind of this way to like backdoor in the guise of fire protection, like expand logging. Yeah. And just to add to that, too, the logging companies love to say that the reasons we have

increased wildfires because there's an overgrowth in the forest because of the northwest forest plant because there's more protections for the forest fires are happening worse because we're not getting there bogging the forest and removing all the fuel so you have like this two-part thing that like kat just mentioned where like on the one hand, companies are like, we need to log more to prevent wildfire, which is bullshit. And we can talk about why. And on the other hand, after fires burn through an area, they're like, we need to log because we need to help the forest recover ecologically. Also, we need to salvage all of the timber before it rots and goes bad and like all of these reasons and so basically it's just like fire has become the excuse to just like log preemptively and log after the fact and yeah it's a total total shit show yeah i mean i think this this kind of falls into capitalists trying to use climate change is just another way to find things to extract and things to grow on right it's they're they're going to try to find their own way to sneak in

when all of this ecological disaster is happening to sell you whatever green safe product is going to help against the collapse or package things in a way that makes it seem like it's solving this problem, but it's actually part of the same thing. Or so you ethically logged wood from the, yeah. Yeah, it's it's you see this in every single industry and it's always it's it's gonna be like this because this is the only way that capitalism knows how to address this issue is by just turning it into another turning it into another thing to consume and another thing to sell and package pretty pretty grim yeah and there's i mean there's cascading effects too

because they they cut down these trees in under the guise of making it safe for the next fire season but which also makes a big chunk of land a lot more vulnerable to like mudslides and the torrential raining that we're having right now um and that's also going to get more common because that's how fucking climate change works it's it's just like the comprehensive fuckery. the name of wildfire prevention just looks like clear cuts. And we have a pretty robust body of science now showing that those kinds of activities actually make fire hazard more severe for local communities. So that's like one of the things they're doing. And we've been calling it just gaslighting, like they're gaslighting all of us by saying, you know, there's nothing to see here. There's nothing to see here. We're taking care of you all. You know, we're barely logging at all.

And then we've got community members on the ground, despite the closure orders who are like, actually, there's a lot to see here. And you all are like, completely devastating the landscape and further harming our communities. So yeah, it's total gaslighting. Yeah, and Oregon has both in terms of like watching fires and watching logging some like, Oregon has both in terms of like watching fires and watching logging some like rules that are not in place in other areas, especially for like even for for press and the like. Like it's it's actually hard to get in to look at this stuff without, you know, breaking some sort of law technically. Which is not at all shady. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like that's another important thing. And maybe Kat can jump on to is just basically, I mean, I think what people aren't understanding is that after the fires, the these federal forest managers closed gates and essentially are converting public land into private land by, you know, using the threat of violence to kick

people out if they go onto their public land. And since 2020, and they say until 2023, at least, the only folks allowed behind these gates are cops and loggers. And so this is like literally, you know, the enclosure of our public lands and like the privatization of our public lands so that cops and loggers can do whatever the hell they want yep and it's the kind of thing i mean it's the kind of thing that people if you're if you're if the if the bundies and that group actually meant the stuff they were saying like the rhetoric they were putting out it's the kind of thing they would be pissed off about too because you're right it is the enclosure of public land by the government um and corporations without any kind of uh consent from the people who are supposed to be the collective owners of that land it's it's uh again something that a lot of people should be angry about who aren't angry about because there's

been this huge propaganda campaign in the northwest about timber unity and the like and like supporting the timber industry um by destroying like the single greatest gift this entire part of the world has uh it's it's pretty frustrating yeah frustrating anyway i have to we have to actually have a quick break so i can go watch my soccer game at the Timber Stadium. Completely unrelated. So I'll be right back. I'm going to drive out to Wheeler, Oregon myself. But we all have different things to do during the break. But also in the break, I guess we could probably do an ad break here.

Because why not? All right. Yeah. Everybody loves ads. Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern day horror stories

inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian.

Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well.

Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jack Peace Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. I'm Jack Peace Thomas, and I'm inviting you to join me and a vibrant community of literary enthusiasts dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories. Black Lit is for the page turners, for those who listen to audiobooks while commuting or running errands, for those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge between the chapters. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Together, we'll dissect classics and contemporary works while uncovering the stories of the brilliant writers behind them.

Blacklit is here to amplify the voices of Black writers and to bring their words to life. Listen to Blacklit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso as they explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals. And we're back. Still talking about forced defense.

And we're back. Still talking about forced defense. There's something that people should probably know before we go further about the way that Oregon works. So for a while, Oregon is a place where you can't get elected in a lot of populated parts of Oregon if you're a Republican. So the Republicans just play nice and pretend and like throw out some social justice-y language while still doing all of the extractive stuff they were going to do anyway. And that's the story with like Ted Wheeler and his family. So Ted Wheeler, the mayor of Portland, comes from timber money. His father was a major Republican donor. was a major Republican donor. Not that the Democrats don't have a lot of extractive history behind them, but like it's very obvious what's happening with the Wheelers where they were huge Republican donors and huge backers of the right. And then Oregon had this kind of switch politically.

And so Ted Wheeler just started throwing out nice social justice-y language. But the whole, you know, he's I'm sure going to make a run for governor at some point in the near future and you've got this like – this dressed up, very extractive logging industry and politicians that always find a way to kind of make it seem palatable to the liberal majority. And they've gotten pretty good at that because it doesn't, I don't know, I think maybe we're coming to the end of this period. But like, I haven't seen up until this last year, a lot of widespread kind of outrage about the clear cutting. And they also hide it pretty well. Like if you're driving through these beautiful public forests in Oregon, the areas that are right along the road will generally be pristine and you'll see old growth and everything.

But sometimes you can see as you like turn a corner or something like, oh, that old growth only goes back a couple of dozen yards and then it's a clear cut. And they'll hide it so that it's not as obvious because they know it upsets people so there's this there's this kind of surprisingly um surprisingly thorough campaign to do as much of this as possible without uh upsetting people um which which means there's a potential to upset people which means there's a potential to actually stop this if enough people get upset but it's you know you're you're going against folks who have thought a lot about how to do this in a way that isn't going to upset the apple cart stop this if enough people get upset. But it's, you know, you're going against folks who have thought a lot about how to do this in a way that isn't going to upset the apple cart.

So how do you upset the apple cart, I guess is what I'm asking. Well, I think one way that we upset the apple cart is by bringing people out to these places. And, you know, in the action that happened on Tuesday, that looked like disrupting and disobeying a federal closure order in order to bring people out to these places, you know, basically metaphorically walking behind what you were describing, the beauty strip along the highway

and seeing what's behind it. And, you know, as we were saying earlier, unfortunately, because of all these federal closure orders after the fire, that looks like risking,cussions, state repression, arrest even, in order to just lay eyes on it. But that is the way that we tip the apple cart. We get people to see these places so that it cuts through the gaslighting that the industry is doing and people can literally viscerally feel and see the damage. And there's no way to convince them that that's okay once they see it. And how do you go about like finding people to bring into this, convincing people to come?

Like what does kind of that effort look like? You want to answer this one, Kat? You did a ton of recruitment. Yeah, totally. I think a big part of it is getting them while they're young. I think that like young people right now are already pretty radicalized compared to 10 years or so, probably because of, I think George Floyd and Black Lives Matter and social, the use of social media and those movements. So I am a college student and we're seeing like so many people

coming in and ready to throw down, like they just cannot wait to get involved and will kind of just show up to anything um so I think that that's like a major tactic for sure um and then also making sure that when you have like a an action that you're recruiting people for that it's um very easy to plug in it's like very accessible um and kind of just like having it organized very well. So it's not daunting to come in. Do you want to add to that, Sam? Well, just to like share a little more about like how we did that with this particular action that happened on Tuesday. Basically, you know, we,

it was a Tuesday, rainy, freezing, middle of the forest, planning this action did not think, and behind a federal closure order, so everyone on site risking arrest. And planning this action, it felt like we would be lucky as shit if we got 10 people out there. But I will say it was easy as shit to get 50 people out there. And that's because people care. And, you know, I think we did in terms of organizing strategy, we use the affinity group model. And so we had a core, you know, there was a core group of organizers and those organizers recruited through affinity groups and their affinity groups. And that helped to keep kind of information secure and, you know, everything tightly organized. But people want, people were really desiring to get together and do something, especially

like the past couple of years of COVID. People are just like eager to do something. And on top of that, you know, we promised that this isn't just an opportunity to potentially get arrested, but this is an educational opportunity and a movement building opportunity. to potentially get arrested, but this is an educational opportunity and a movement building opportunity. So while the road was blocked with a slash pile and a fire truck, there were workshops going on. There were hikes going on in the forest that's supposed to be cut. There was discussions about know your rights trainings and affinity groups. We had a band playing on top of a fire truck and there was a dance party. And basically, you know, we were like building community and solidarity in a positive way while fucking shit up.

I think that's the key. And I mean, where do you. How do you like what is the way to phrase this? What is the – let me think of a way to phrase this. What is kind of the next step here? Because they haven't started logging this area yet, but they're kind of doing like the pre-prep work. What do you think actually can be done to halt it? Like is it a – because it seems to me that there's got gotta be like a mix of tactics there to actually get them to stop. And you're dealing with a number of different, um, threats, including not just at the state level, but these federal closure orders, like what is, I don't know,

what, what does the path forward look like to you? Yeah. So there's a preliminary injunction, um, being forth by some nonprofits. And so this is a really good example of different tactics coming in. And so the preliminary injunction is basically to state that what they're doing, the Forest Service is doing is illegal. But before that, that can be passed, they can come in at any point and log the area. And so that's where direct action comes in to slow them down and halt them as much as possible until the courts can process that injunction. And that feels really huge too. Like what Kat just said is like, where is the place of direct action in forest defense? This is like the golden moment for direct action. While there's like an open legal case that we're waiting on a judge to settle

and the timber industry is like coming in ready to moot out the case by logging before it can even be decided. And like to just add a little bit more backstory to on like, another reason why people are so pissed about this is that, you know, this watershed has been, I think, like beloved and also embattled since the 80s, like the infamous Easter massacre logging event happened in the same watershed where- Could you explain? Yeah, sorry. Yeah, no, totally. In 1989, a timber company was planning to clear-cut log old-growth forest out there and started moving on it on Easter in the snow.

And a bunch of badass direct action activists set up a five-tiered blockade on a logging road to hold off the logging and successfully did for days and days until a bunch of them, I think over a dozen folks got arrested, thrown in jail, and the forest was clear-cut. So hence, you know, the Easter Massacre name. But a ton of folks who, you know, still work in forest defense in the Spire region were there and remember that logging. And myself and Kat have been a part of efforts over the past handful of years to fight off a number of logging projects out there. We were successful in doing that. We actually like smacked the Forest Service's grubby hands off of a bunch of old growth because our scrappy friends spent days exploring this watershed and documenting, doing like site-specific citizen science documentation and giving it to the Forest Service. And we fought them and won and protected a bunch

of the forest. And then the fires came through and they closed the gates and they secretly changed all of these contracts to include clear-cut logging. And so that is why there is an open lawsuit because we believe it's illegal what they're doing. It's sketchy and illegal. Yeah. But it does illustrate like kind of the depth of the fight necessary, not just in forest defense, but at all efforts of kind of resisting the extractive industries that are driving a lot of climate change. It's not enough. It's never enough to win the first victory. It's never enough to win the first victory. They're going to find some way to,

to, to swoop around to the flanks and try to take it away from you like they're doing right now. Um, which is exhausting. Um, it seems exhausting, but,

uh, it doesn't mean that you can ignore it. It's fucking exhausting. Yeah. What I always say is like our forest, our federal management agencies, they like suffer from this powerful amnesia where they just like keep coming back with the same bullshit proposals. But like our movement does not suffer from that. And we are just like building power and getting stronger

and getting more successful. So like when people left on Tuesday, there was a promise that people will be back if logging happens. And we're very sure that that will be the case. And if people are in the Cascadian bio region and are like, well, this sounds pretty sweet. I want to keep some trees where they are, as opposed to putting them on the back of a truck to drive somewhere else. How could they get involved? Where might they reach out to? uh how could they get involved where where might they reach out to well there's a few different groups who were a part of this um definitely um the portland rising tide cascadia forest defenders um cat can talk about climate justice league and um maybe the action that you all put on yesterday as a follow-up and like how folks can get involved with that

um but basically yeah you can follow us on twitter, um, and Instagram and, and please, um, you know, keep a lookout cause we will be, we'll be getting it out far and wide if there's a call for folks to get out there again. Yeah. And Climate Justice League is an org, um, at the University of Oregon and people are free to just join the organization. Community members are also involved. But we did put on an event yesterday where Tyler Ferrez of Ferrez Logging, or Ferrez Timber, who is actually the company that bought the rights to Brighton Bush, which

was the area where we did the action on Tuesday. He was giving a speech at the University of Oregon to talk about post-fire logging, which was just like crazy timing. They kind of just like put it in our lap. And so we recruited from that action and we're like, let's disrupt the hell out of this talk. And so we like showed up and kind of tried to sneak in. They were having Zoom issues,

which like luckily distracted them from the fact that there was like 40 or 50, like pretty punk anarchy looking kids in the room. But we let him go on for a little bit. And then we started to ask him questions that he obviously didn't know the answer to. We kept asking questions about, you know, the science says this, but you're stating this. Where are you getting your science from? And he kept saying things like, well, that's more of a political question. And the statistics don't really back up what you're saying. And then, yeah, we just chanted and made him really nervous. Yeah. And as a heads up, if you're looking to win an argument on a Zoom call, you can just say the statistics don't back you up without citing statistics. It's really the easiest way to do that.

Welcome. I'm Danny Trejo. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. with supernatural creatures.

I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba.

He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian.

Elian. Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation.

Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jack Peace Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. I'm Jack Peace Thomas, and I'm inviting you to join me in a vibrant community of literary enthusiasts dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories. Black Lit is for the page turners,

for those who listen to audiobooks while commuting or running errands, for those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge between the chapters. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Together, we'll dissect classics and contemporary works while uncovering the stories of the brilliant writers behind them. Black Lit is here to amplify the voices of Black writers and to bring their words to life. Listen to Black Lit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso as they explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday.

New episodes every Thursday. kind of thing becomes not enough. This area does have a rich history of kind of direct action stuff to protect forests with, again, also like a mixed success. Like by no means does direct action always work to do anything, right? Now, we still have the Line 3 pipeline. We still have all of these things that direct action has tried to prevent. But it turns out a lot of the kind of direct action that's associated with these type of like ecological things is is is kind of more performative than anything else you know like it is kind of like a tree sit is about gaining media media like publicity because they're gonna get you down right like eventually and it's and it's and it's gonna be painful because like you're not going to be sitting up there for years to to to to to prevent the tree from being logged so how close do you think we are into to like reaching that kind of territory like

it was in like the 90s and 80s where it is like a lot of a lot of people like blocking off roads and doing and doing that kind of thing you know more like you know what's it crosses into that it's more like autonomous it's not it's not like led by a single organization by any means it's more it's more decentralized but do you see that kind of happening soon and you know how how do you think we can balance out direct action with like other like thoughtful means of trying to draw attention to these things and maybe actually and other things like like actually physically physically preventing the logging of certain areas? That's such a good question. And I'm really thankful that we're talking about strategy because kind of like I mentioned,

I moved out here like 10 years ago to do forest defense work and have seen so many instances in where people are trying to do direct action in a time and space where it doesn't make sense, where it's like basically slated to, it's going to lose because it's just impossible to, as you said, you know, hold this blockade for weeks and weeks and weeks in the snow indefinitely, you know, as we, you know, as they continue to try to log indefinitely. So there's definitely a sweet spot for where the sort, the sort of kind of the sort of direct action that we're talking about, like blockading where that is most useful. And that sweet spot is definitely when there is another decisive move, like another, like legal victory

that's waiting in the wings or, um, you know, we won one in Washington without a legal victory because we shamed the shit out of the Department of Natural Resources in the Seattle Times. And they were like, whoa, we're sorry. And so direct action held off something until we were able to sufficiently shame them and deter them. But typically they don't shame well. And so typically, you know, we need a legal, there needs to be a legal element backing it up. So direct action is a time buyer. But that said, like, obviously blockading things is not the only type of direct action. And part of the rich history of forest defense in the Spire region is other kinds of more necessarily,

you know, discrete kinds of direct action that obviously, you know, I'm not a part of speaking on this radio show, but would publicly, you know, say, like, those things probably need to happen. And I hope they fucking happen. What I could say is that I've seen these things happening in other places,

like in the Atlanta defending forest movement right now. I have seen evidence that individuals, not associated with any group, are putting spikes in trees and that is that is that is something that is happening right and all that takes is one person right it's that's not like a group of 20 people going into the forest to do that that's like one person in an afternoon right so those are the types of like single person direct actions which again yeah any type of direct action is is going to be scary right you're you're once you start doing that

that is you know that introduces certain things that is kind of more frightening to you as a person. But it is something that is happening in other places, and it has shown to, at the very least, upset the people who are wanting logging to happen. Generally, they're not thrilled when they find these things. Yeah. Yeah, because it's like, I mean, I think when it comes down to it,

it's about knowing what your goal is with this tactic. Like on, you know, in the action that happened this past week, there was an understanding that the goal was to, you know, shine a light on this thing that's happening in secrecy shame the forest service and build movement movement building so that we're ready uh when people need to throw down for real and and that might happen soon we weren't trying to hold the space for weeks and weeks and weeks um that wasn't the goal so like going in being like what kind of an action are we trying to do? What are we trying to accomplish? Are we trying to be decisive?

Are we trying to like shape the conditions necessary for success and like culture build? Are we trying, like, what are we actually trying to do? And then like coming away with that. Having, having that clear, having a clear sense of that beforehand, I think really, really is crucial because I've definitely observed direct actions where that is not the case and people have not thought those things through. And it becomes the kind of unfun version of chaos where, you know, things don't really get done and you're just kind of sitting around and everyone's kind of slightly miserable because, again, you're in a freezing forest and no one really knows what the hell they're doing. and no one really knows what the hell they're doing. So definitely having those kind of things thought through beforehand is extremely useful when you're deciding to trudge your way into some cold, dark woods. Yeah, we're going for chaotic good, not chaotic evil.

Yeah, well, a little bit of chaotic. Well, it depends what we mean by evil. Evil to some people. We, yeah. Anyway. Any other kind of historical notes on forest defense or any other kind of random tidbits you'd like to mention before we close out?

The one thing that I feel like is super important to say to people is that forest defense is not just about protecting forests. It's about protecting all of us. We know now like forest defense is climate defense. Our forests are our best natural tool for fighting climate change. And also like we need them here. Most of Oregonians, 80% get their drinking water from forested watersheds.

Like they literally are sustaining all of us. And so, yeah, we hope folks join, like not just for the sake of like being, you know, hippie tree huggers, even though, you know, some of us are, but also because like we need to survive as a people and as a planet and forests are our best way to do that.

It's the cheapest, most advanced form of carbon capture we have yet. So yeah, it seems kind of asinine to chop that all down to build some shitty sheds. Mm-hmm. All right. Well, that's a sowed. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media.

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