It Could Happen Here - Colonialism Part 1 Ft. Andrew

Episode Date: October 2, 2023

Andrew and Mia discuss the effects of colonization on the formation of nations and the psychological consequences of colonial rule on both the colonizer and the colonized.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You should probably keep your lights on for

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It's time to get rewarded for it. Submit your podcast today at iHeart.com slash podcast awards. That's iHeart.com slash podcast awards. Welcome to It Could Happen Here. I am Andrew of the YouTube channel Andrewism. And today I'd like to take some time to discuss nations, colonialism, and the people that constitute them. That is, of course, quite broad. But in the end, I hope that folks are able to come away with a sense of at least my version of the anarchist position on nations,

the impact of colonization on the psyches of individuals within nations, and the role of national liberation in social revolution. Today I'm joined by... Me, Mia, who... Oh boy, great topic, interesting topic. Yeah. Indeed, indeed, indeed. I think part of what makes the topic so interesting is because of how, for lack of a better term,

how wiggly some of these terms are, how hard to pin down some of these definitions are. So it's very important to be clear at the outset what you mean by a nation, what you mean by national liberation, that sort of thing. So what is a nation, what you mean by national liberation, that sort of thing. So what is a nation? What comes to mind for you? Yeah. Oh God. Yeah, I know. I should have pre-prepped an answer to this. I have a very difficult time

I should have pre-prepped an answer to this. I have a very difficult time conceiving of a nation as something that's separated from a state, which I know is something a lot of people try to do. For me, it's just been sort of permanently welded to the nation state in a way that makes it hard to sort of think about without conjoining the two. That's fair. That's fair that's fair i think that that really is part of what we're going to end up discussing because for one you know as we'll see a lot of nations were formed through the process of colonization um and through the process of incorporation into the global uh you know superstructure global system and secondly it is seen to be the ultimate aim of a nation the greatest accomplishment of a nation

to eventually establish their own state to have a state of their own. We call nations that don't have their own state, stateless nations, the Kurds being one of the most notable examples. But it really is commonly seen that the ultimate accomplishment for the liberation of your people is that you establish a state to rule that people for themselves. Of course, what for themselves actually means becomes quite clear as in many cases, foreign rulers and the practices of foreign rulers just take on a local face. Yeah, there's a Kurdish joke that goes roughly, getting your own nation state means that you seek your police,

torture you in your own language. Oh, that's fantastic. That is, I like that. I like that. And language really is one of the aspects of what it is to be a nation. It's not necessarily the only aspect or primary aspect, but it is one aspect. For example, what is considered the Basque nation, those in northern Spain and part of southern, southwestern France I believe their identity is not entirely but quite significantly tied to their language because it is a language that is completely distinct from any other language

found in Europe or really anywhere else in the world but language is just one aspect the nation a nation i mean not in the sense of a state or a country or political constitution but in the sense of an imagined community of people an imagined community of people i think that imagined aspect of it is quite important as we'll soon see but an imagined community of people formed on the basis of a common language history ancestry society or culture who are conscious of their autonomy so it's not enough that a group of people merely share a language or share history or share an ancestry or share society or share culture it's important that once we define it as a nation that they are conscious of the fact that they share those things in common and that

they use that consciousness to develop some sense of an imagined shared identity of imagined community whether or not each individual in that community knows all the other individuals in that community nations are not necessarily geographically bound like you know certain conceptions of a nation may be but rather often diasporic and some some nations even united under a banner of nations such as in the case of pan-africanism which is a form of nation movement or pan-nation movement that seeks to unite the thousands of ethnic groups and also the diaspora of the continent of Africa in response to the exploitation of outsiders.

In fact, the Pan-African nation is really a quintessential example of how colonialism creates nations while exploiting them and although uh native american populations retained slightly more of their heritage than the displaced african population in north america um though this is not to deny what was lost. Their forced displacement also created something of a shared ethnic identity, which is where you see movements like Red Power popping up during the height of the Civil Rights era. Prior to the process of colonization, they were distinct in their cultural groupings um this group would be uh blackfoot this group

would be cree this group would be um sue or something right this group would be sue but then as they had the shared experience of colonization they began to develop a sense of shared identity against those that were colonizing them a sense of solidarity that transcended their previous cultural distinctions and designations. Not that those designations don't still exist, but many have adopted a sort of panner nation above that as a vehicle through which they can undertake their struggle. through which they can undertake their struggle. However, mere opposition between a colonized group and a colonizing force is not the only way that colonialism creates new nations. Also through social stratification, through hybridization, through the imposition of new religions, through new education systems,

new languages, and new administrative boundaries. All of those are ways in which colonialism can develop new nations. For example, in the case of the Métis, a cultural intermingling and intermarriage between two radically different groups ended up with the birth of the new nation of the Métis in the unique colonial history of Canada. And as we've seen, nations are often the targets of suppression and of subjugation and erasure. African peoples were stolen from the continent and thoroughly stripped of their languages, histories, and cultures, and continue to be oppressed throughout much of the so-called New World.

In the United States, African Americans faced centuries of systemic racism. In Brazil, the Afro-Brazilian population also faced similar historical discrimination, similarly in Colombia and so on and so on. Indigenous nations across the world also continue to be denied their autonomy as minorities within a domineering state palestinians and israel have faced a long-standing conflict due to the erasure of their self-determination kurds and malice as i've mentioned spread across several countries and do not have a country of their own, so they have historically sought independence or at least autonomy. Aboriginal Australians have faced struggles related to land rights, cultural preservation and self-governance.

And although New Zealand has made progress in recognising the rights of indigenous Maori people, Maori in New Zealand have also dealt with issues related to land ownership and cultural preservation. Whether it be the Armenians under the Ottoman Empire in the past or the current subjugation of Hawaii and Puerto Rico under the US or the Tibetan population still under the thumb of the Chinese state, I really could go on and on. I really could go on and on. Across the world, struggles have been and are being fought by nations for their liberation. And much of the suffering and struggle is thanks to the process of colonization.

Our present national borders and demographics have been largely shaped and dictated by the colonization and conquest of a few nations from Europe. But what is colonialism exactly? As one anthropologist, Chris Kortreich, put it, colonialism is the establishment and control of a territory for an extended period of time by a sovereign power over a subordinate and other people,

which are segregated and separated from the ruling power. He goes on to say that features of the colonial situation include political and legal domination over the other society, relations of economic and political dependence, and institutionalized racial and cultural inequalities. To impose their dominant physical force through raids, expropriation of labor and resources, imprisonment, and objective murders. Enslavement of both the indigenous people and their land is the primary objective of colonization. Through colonization, native cultures must be destroyed, either stripped, crushed, emptied, subsumed, co-opted, or dismantled. And since colonialism relies on a dichotomy of

superiority and inferiority, the colonialists must impose their own culture over the native population, from language to dress to daily practice. That culture, which by the way becomes native through that process of colonization, and that really gets into the whole discussion of what makes something native what makes a people native there are two definitions that i balance or try and dance between one being indigeneity through land relationship and the other being indigeneity through colonial relationship and so i'm referring to the indigeneity through colonial relationship and so i'm referring to the indigeneity through colonial relationship when i say that a culture or people becomes native through that process of colonization because prior to colonial incursions there was no

non-native to define themselves against they just were you'll need to define yourself as native to a place when an outsider or an invasive force is pushing you out of that place or trying to dominate you within that place the old forms of colonization are largely ufa but the spirit of colonization still lingers it is a specter in the spheres of culture and politics and economics the colonial complex created the world we see today and left quite the impression psychologically on both the colonized and the colonizer french tunisian writer albert memmi wrote uh what i can say to be a very essential work on the relationship between the colonizer and the colonized that work that book is called the colonized and the Colonized. It was published in 1957 and it was written of course in a very important time, in a time when many national liberation movements were

quite active and so this work is often held up with other important works in that anti-colonial milieu including Frantz Fanon's The Wretched of the Earth, Black Skin, White Masks, and Aimé Césaire's discourse on colonialism. In the book The Colonizer and the Colonized, he spends some time discussing the psychology of both, and he splits the psychological conditions of The Colonizer and the Colonized into four parts. the colonized and the colonized into four parts. The colonizer who accepts, the colonizer who refuses, the colonized who accepts, and the colonized who refuses. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've

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todo lo actual y viral. Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So first, there's the colonizer who accepts. I've called that colonizer Christopher for obvious reasons, that being Columbus.

And so Christopher accepts his role as a colonizer. He becomes a colonist. That means he has to accept the fact that his position of privilege is non-legitimate so the only way he could really enjoy his position would be to absolve himself of the conditions of the guilt of the conditions under which he was attained that's why christopher falsifies history creates racist mythology rewrites laws and attempts to whitewash his legacy that's why he emphasizes his superiority while casting aspersions on the colonized. He has to do whatever it takes

to justify his evils, to uplift himself to the skies while grinding those below him underground. Deep down, Christopher knows all this is messed up, but he can't admit that to himself. He has to keep degrading the colonized. And so just as the colonial situation

manufactures the colonized, Christopher just as the colonial situation manufactures the colonized christopher the colonialist is also transformed now he chairs on torture discrimination and massacre he becomes a reactionary a conservative and a fascist but the condemnation that he carries in his heart can never truly be erased it pisses him off that he relies on the colonized to maintain the colony even though he came looking for profit and already has a homeland but he has to direct his anger somewhere so he becomes a racist and not just any racism a racism so fundamentally ingrained in his personality racism built on three major components one that there exists a major gulf between him and the colonized.

Two, that he can exploit these differences to his benefit. And three, that these differences are absolute and cannot be changed. Therefore, he's able to remain separate from the community of the colonized by halting any social mobility, and he's able to continue to justify his superiority. Because, honestly, circular logic, right? These people are inferior because they aren't at my level, and they aren't at my level because I keep them in their inferior position.

And on and on and on. Added bonus, of course, he gets to feel good about himself while doing so. He becomes a humanitarian. Surely, the colonized needed him to bring the light of civilization look at them so stupid and civil all this is natural and eternal so he has nothing to worry about it is divine grace that has brought him to this place it is a manifest destiny that he continues this tradition and i mean if he enjoys a couple perks in his quest to civilize them well surely it's just justice the colonized should be grateful christopher benevolent

master of the natural order don't question it Christopher, benevolent master of the natural order. Don't question it. And really this is why Imicizer was right to say that colonization dehumanizes even the most civilized man. It inevitably tends to change him who undertakes it. The colonizer, who in order to ease his conscience, gets into the habit of seeing the other man as an animal accustoms himself to treating him like an animal and tends objectively

to transform himself into an animal no offense animals of course i'm just causing cesare on the flip side of the coin is the colonizer who refuses john you see not every colonizer becomes a colonelist john tries to resist the rule but he is still a colonizer he tries to ignore his position of privilege but he cannot escape mentally from a concrete situation. He cannot refuse the ideology of colonialism while continuing to live with its actual relationships, while continuing to benefit from the privileges he half-heartedly denounces. See, colonial relations can't be boiled down to individual feelings. So it doesn't matter much materially if John accepts or rejects it. It doesn't matter if he feels guilty or not. His identity is fundamentally defined in relation to colonization.

He's still part of the oppressing group. He shares in their good fortune and will likely share in their fate. Amos is there makes it clear that the truth is, between colonizer and colonized, there is only room for forced labor, intimidation, pressure, police, taxation, theft, rape, compulsory crops, contempt, mistrust, arrogance, self-complacency, swinishness, brainless elites, degraded masses. No human contact, but relations of domination and submission, which turned the colonizing man into a classroom monitor, an army sergeant, a prison guard, a slave driver,

and the indigenous man into an instrument of production. Even if John is a leftist, a progressive, trying his best to assist the national liberation of the colonized peoples he's still in a rough situation of course not many colonizers have actually been you know about it like that but even if john was to create a world for colonization it'd be hard for him to picture his situation changing all that much he's accustomed to privilege and so equality is probably going to feel like oppression he can't imagine not being who he is with the comfortable domination of his culture and language he's never had to accommodate others before he's never had to think oh wait maybe i should try and learn their language try and incorporate elements of their cultural mores.

He still holds the subtle vestiges of the racist ideology that his country was built on. And he will have to fight his own class interests and his own fellow colonizers. Revolution would require the decimation of his current identity and the reboot of another and that decision that gargantuan task would be too challenging for some people to undertake so mia what do you think of the position of the colonizer who accepts and the colonizer who refuses. One of the things that I think is interesting about this

is that the original concept of privilege was something that came out of this specific kind of analysis. It was about French settlers in Algeria. And it was about French settlers in Algeria. And, you know, it was originally something along – basically along these similar lines where it's like it doesn't really matter what your ideological beliefs are if you're sort of like a French settler in Algeria. Like you just automatically have privilege that like other people didn't. And this has been sort of like, I don't know. I like the, the original sort of context of what this analysis was, has been sort of worn down.

But I think, I don't know. Like, I think, I think it is colonizers. Like this is, this is a structural position, right?

Like, you know, the, the, the sort of, you can't sort of individualism your way out of a structural condition. Yeah. And I think that's something people sort of have this incredible capacity to sort of believe about themselves and it's just not really true and that's something that's very difficult to sort of like actually

substantively confront but i think it's why this analysis of stuff is useful exactly exactly it's it's not enough to just say oh well i don't think this is right i think this is wrong that doesn't change anything materially um it's when you act to challenge to dismantle to confront um and to act in solidarity with those facing those challenges in a material way that any of it really matters I think it was

particularly pertinent, of course Memi is writing this and Césaire wrote in a time when colonization is really at, or rather the confrontation against colonization is really at its zenith. And so for those of us in the 21st century, in 2023 now, who are looking back, we're saying, we might think,

oh, well, surely this is a dated analysis, a dated way of looking at these relationships but upon further inspection it really continues to be quite topical when you look at for example self-proclaimed allies looking at how Mami discusses the colonizer who refuses really gives you a sense of i think at least how far you need to be willing to go in your allyship versus how far most people have reached even today we can ask ourselves um and those who maybe see themselves a bit in the colonizer who refuses ask yourself how far i mean you may recognize your privileges even while still you know enjoying them but how far might you be willing to go to see an end to this system?

We speak about how the loss of privilege can make equality feel like oppression. But truly grappling with that, what would it mean for, for example, English to no longer be the dominant language? You know, what would it mean for us to get used to a will in which we might have to learn another language? It's something I've been thinking about recently, even while occupying the position of a colonized subject. I speak English and that is a privilege i speak english natively and i mean i'm trying to learn another language i'm trying to learn spanish which is another colonized language yeah that's sort of one of the other things it's like you know for me it's like okay you have english it's this colonial language you have chinese which is like

also colonial language and i learned some sp which is like also a colonial language. And I learned some Spanish, just like, well, all right. And a third colonial language has struck the towers. Yeah, exactly. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs,

the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. You know that rush of endorphins you feel after a great workout? Well, that's when the real magic happens. So if you love hearing real, inspiring stories from the people you know, follow, and admire,

join me every week for Post Run High. It's where we take the conversation beyond the run and get into the heart of it all. It's lighthearted, pretty crazy, and very fun. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me as the fire and dare enter? Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonorum. An anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America.

From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how Tex Elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires.

From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough,

so join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. and this is when we get into the sort of discussion about like actually post-colonialism and anti-colonial struggle and how you go about anti-colonialism right because there is one of the different approaches one could take different paths i suppose we could follow there's an anti-colonial approach where we could follow there's an answer colonial approach where we could say you know what let's just try and recreate pre-colonial society right so everybody tries to learn the languages that they feel as though they might have spoken if not under colonial system if not if colonial history had not happened and then we try to reimplement those languages and reimpose those languages and dismantle certain

institutions and structures and whatever the case may be try to basically erase the impact of colonization from history and then there's another path where we recognize well maybe we cannot undo colonization and truthfully we can't right but going forward how do we intend to dismantle and to rework and to create anew? You know, taking from the past to build the future, but not being bound to that past. example let go of certain binds on language or certain ways of communicating or certain ways we organize systems or certain customs and rules and obligations and I'm veering a bit from the intended topic of

psychology of colonization but I do want us to think about whether what role regardless of what role we see ourselves in in this discussion how do we pursue an anti-colonial future what does that look like what path should we be taking? And how might that path chafe against our current identity?

How might that path chafe against our current privileges, our current comforts? Yes, we are, as workers, all oppressed and exploited but at the same time as we recognize there are certain privileges that some have over others whether it be in the realm of race or gender or ability or language and if we are going to be pursuing anti-colonial and we have to ask ourselves how might those privileges be affected and have we truly confronted our comfort level with those privileges being affected and i think that's part of the broader effort of decolonizing the mind and what i speak about in my video on why revolution needs therapy the idea of like really truly breaking down a lot of these ideas that we have about ourselves and about the world and

questioning all of it deconstructing reconstructing all of it but then i get too far of course cesare called colonization thingification so let's turn our attention now to those things. Let's discuss the situation of the colonized, in this case Candace and Nat, defined by the images and myths that surround them and tell them who they are. The colonized have no way out of their condition within the colonial order they're not free to choose between being colonized or not being colonized they just are colonized and so candace understands this you know her whole life she's had to grapple with the negative portraits of herself they were created by the colonizer all the images that were used to support the colonial situation that raised the colonizer and humbled the colonizer all the images that were used to support the colonial situation

that raised the colonizer and humbled the colonized that justified the colonizer's privilege that painted the colonized as inert and the colonizer as active that made it seem as though

the colonizer as though the colonizer was doing the colonized a favor, that their labor was actually and their employment was not actually necessary, that it was charity that the colonizer was bringing to their otherwise lazy masses. Being exposed to that kind of messaging from a young age really does a number on people not just in the realm of colonization but in other spheres as well we see that with patriarchy of course how messages from an early age affect how boys and girls and others perceive themselves and perceive the world around them and perceive others. In the colonial context this means that

some who are colonized end up internalizing and accepting wholesale the messages that they're receiving. So Candice thinks to herself, perhaps the colonizer's right. Perhaps we are lazy. Perhaps we are stupid. Perhaps we are timid and weak. And this degrading portrait ends up being accepted. It's usually one of the final steps of colonization,

the colonization of the mind. Once the colonized begins to tolerate rather than resist colonization, all they can really look to do is attempt to assimilate, which is impossible by design. It does mean that Candace won't try. She sheds the memories of her ancestors and the practices and institutions of her culture. She embraces the colonizer's will and all its institutions as right and just. The colonizer's salve and the colonizer's whip, the colonizer's god and the colonizer's school.

Her children are sent to these schools built by the colonizer to erase and replace her people's history, traditions, and language. She and her kin are imbued with double consciousness. She's trapped in a sunken place, performing for the colonizer in a home country that now feels foreign. Double consciousness is a particularly useful concept, first coined by W.E.B. Du Bois in The Souls of Black Folk in 1903. He was speaking specifically about African Americans, but the concept does apply in other contexts as well. Double consciousness is the dual self-perception experienced by subordinate peoples in an oppressive society. It is looking at yourself through your own eyes and simultaneously looking at yourself through the eyes of a racist society. Looking at who you are and also looking at what the dominant society sees and thinks of who you are.

Of course, Du Bois' concept was further built upon, and people speak about things such as triple consciousness. In some ways, the idea of double consciousness can be tied with the conversation of intersectionality. But they're those who experience that double consciousness. And rather than reasserting their view of themselves and their people, they accept the negative view held by the dominant society they surround themselves the language of that dominant society candace's world from the street signs the documents to the courts the bureaucracy to the industry all use the colonizing language while her mother tongue the one used tenderly by her ancestors the one that sustains her innermost

feelings, emotions, and dreams, is devalued and degraded. Candace loses far more than she gains. Her history, her culture, her future. She rejects herself, self-love, and liberation itself. She rejects herself, self-love, and liberation itself, attempting to model herself after the colonizer, or rather crush herself into conformity. She gains self-hate, shame, and alienation. She sees her own people through the eyes, the condemnations and accusations of the colonizer. She is atomized and estranged from her people and rejected by the colonizer. She's atomized, estranged from her people, and rejected by the colonizer, utterly defeated. But Bemi offers another path, an alternative mindset, in the colonized who refuses. You see, like Candace, Nat knows that there will never be emancipation within the colonial relationship. But unlike Candace, they know

that there is no liberty in assimilation. Revolt is the only way out. An absolute condition requires an absolute solution and there can be no compromise. Deliberation is a process of self-recovery and autonomous dignity. They must shake off the false images and boldly attack the institutions of oppression. But even in their resistance, Nat still bears the traces of colonization. They still share some of the values, techniques, and methods of the colonizer. They still speak the language the colonizer can understand. To be truly emancipated, Nat must work to rebuild a new, authentic, and self-assured identity for themselves and their people. NAB must reclaim and transform that which the colonizers consider negative.

Must take pride in all their wrinkles and wounds. never shying away from their colonization, but accepting it as a fact of their experience and their history and yet overcoming that colonization. However, there is the risk of continuing to define yourself in relation to protest, in relation to revolt, and in relation to colonization. At some point, maybe not now, but at some point,

Nat will need to move beyond that means of definition. What that future looks like is anyone's guess and also up to everyone to help build. I hope you appreciated this sometimes meandering dive into the minds of the colonizer and the colonized. The fight is not over. The psychological, political, and economic consequences of colonization are still felt to this day. The mentalities and conditions discussed still exist in varying extents today. Hopefully this helps us to better understand colonization's impact on us so that we can deconstruct that Leviathan together to create a freer and more diverse and more humane world.

Next time I'll be discussing the role of national liberation in the struggle for freedom. And what precisely that would entail, as I didn't have time to get into it in this part. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast Post Run High is all about.

It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow. Join me, Danny Trails, and step into the flames of fright. An anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturno on the iHeartRadio app,

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