It Could Happen Here - Colonialism Part 2 Ft Andrew

Episode Date: October 3, 2023

Andrew and Mia discuss the role of national liberation in anti-colonial movements and how anarchists can and should interact with them.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You should probably keep your lights on for

Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow. Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of riot. An anthology podcast of modern-day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. search. Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech brought to you by an industry veteran with nothing to lose. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts from. Welcome to Good Happening Here. I am Andrew of the YouTube channel Andrewism.

Last time I spoke about colonialism's effect on the psyche of the people within it. And today I want to talk about how a people under the thumb of colonialism go about their liberation and how that struggle fits within some vision of an anarchist analysis. National liberation is a struggle against the relationship of exploitation and domination inflicted upon a nation. It's a struggle against the domination of one people by another, often centered on questions of language, culture, welfare, equality, and land. It has consequences, and it's not something we can just stand by neutrally and ignore. In fact, ignoring national liberation struggles would mean siding with national oppression. There's no centrist take here. There's no both sides to the oppression of a people by another of course that doesn't mean that

national liberation struggles are free of critique or necessarily morally righteous national liberation struggles are usually quite diverse within them there are many tendencies at play from the most reactionary to the most revolutionary. I don't know if any immediately come to mind for you, Mia. Oh, God, yeah. I mean, you know, I think I always think about right is like China's a well, it kind of unique. I mean, there's there's a lot of countries that you get multiple like national liberation movements. death squads in El Salvador because they'd gotten so good at killing peasants that like you know this is what they were doing with their life and the other one to

CCP and it's like well okay like great great job guys like liberated we've liberated a lot of people we've like you know I don't know it's I think there's sort of two ways of looking at that where it's like you have on the one hand you can look at it from the sort

of like workers perspective where it's like well yeah okay the one hand you can look at it from the sort of like workers perspective where it's like well yeah okay so both you have your two national liberation movements and both of them end up machine gunning about a billion workers depending on like you know in offset from each other about 40 years but you know you have the shanghai massacre and you have the culture revolution and then i think the other thing that's important when you're looking at a NatLib movement is whose nation is being liberated. And this is something you get with Indonesia, right? You have the National Liberation Movement,

but then you simultaneously have the occupation of West Papua. Yeah. So it's like a Russiaussia nest egg of of national oppression like the like indonesia was being oppressed by the dutch and then indonesia ends up oppressing people west papua and east timor and all those different places yeah and you see this a lot with like for you know this is why like i keep coming back to like whose nation is being liberated thing because it's like you know you get this with a lot of like the sort of pan-arab movements and it's like well okay we're doing like resistance to sort of like french or british colonialism and

then like yes this is this is okay if you are arab like god help you if you're a kurd or like you know so there's there's always these sort of, I don't know, you have to be careful about who wins the national liberation movement. Exactly, exactly. Because no matter where a national liberation struggle is happening, there are most likely minorities that are not encapsulated in that. You know, there are always going to be populations of people who are not of that nation within the territory of the national liberation struggle.

And then beyond that, there are also within national liberation struggles other ongoing struggles, including class struggle. While the oppressed classes might cling to the national liberation struggle in an effort to defend against foreign subjugation and exploitation, the capitalist class is using that struggle for national liberation to consolidate their own power and monopolize their own exploitation of the working class. power and monopolize their own exploitation of the working class a lot of capitalists their whole investment in national liberation boils down to i don't like the fact that i have to compete with foreign capitalists i want to compete with local capitalists so i can come out on top and yeah that's not cool yeah and then i think another thing that gets conflated when you start talking about national liberation, liberation of a nation, is the concept of nationalism, right?

Nationalism is a program that has been proposed, or rather a suite of programs have been proposed as the solution to national liberation struggles because i can't even say that nationalism is a single program nationalism itself is quite diverse as we'll soon see but nationalism is only one response one possible response it may be the most common response but it's only one possible response to the national liberation struggle and then there's also the terminology that gets modeled when you start talking about nationalism right because as i defined national liberation is the struggle of an exploited people against a dominating group or against their domination just generally not necessarily against one specific group could be multiple groups but it's the

struggle of a people against their domination however when you get into nationalism there are forms of nationalism developed by oppressive groups developed by the oppressors sometimes they develop a nationalism in order to more effectively oppress the people they're oppressing and so and you know you can even argue that there are cases where oppressed nations adopt nationalism as a strategy for their liberation and end up pursuing a form of nationalism that is quite similar to that which they were being oppressed under there's one immediate example that comes to mind if you know what i mean i i have like nine

so i'm not entirely sure which one you were pointing at but oh nine okay okay what are you thinking of okay well okay i i wanted to talk about this i think there's like a very there's like a kind of chinese nationalism that does this a lot but this is i think a kind of common thing of like the one of the sort of responses to colonization that's pretty common is this really, really – this sort of like quintupling down on patriarchy where – because one of the effects of colonization obviously is like this sort of – like one of the sort of psychological things is this sort of like one of the sort of psychological things is is this sort of like you know is this installation of of inferiority into the minds of people who are being colonized and so one of the ways people respond to this is by being like no like the colonizers are wrong like our men are actually really strong and like our men are actually incredibly manly and like we have really really like tight powerful control over women and you see this fucking everywhere right this is why

all of like there's so many sort of like chinese nationalists who are so obsessed with like these videos of like the like they're basically indistinguishable from american right-wing videos where they're just like walking around with no shirts on and being like look at how strong i am that's like you see you see this thing with like hadoop for people too it's like they do like exactly the same shit like it's all over the fucking place you can see you can see the taliban doing this now too and it's like it's it's like it's you know it's it's they very quickly they're seeing colonization as emasculating yeah yeah and and that's you know and i think there's there's there's this mode of like

reactionary anti-colonialism where it's like they see it as emasculating and they see the problem with colonization was it stopped them from being an empire and you see this a lot with chinese nationalism where it's like you know like their their their effective problem with like the century humiliation was that they didn't get to keep being the qing empire or get to keep colonizing other people and that's like a very i don't't know. I think that's a very common sort of like thing that happens when – this is a very common sort of like ideological basis for sort of the right wing of anti-colonial. Well, I don't know. Even calling them anti-colonial movements is kind of like being a bit generous. But yeah, I think it's a very common form of sort of right wing nationalism that emerges as a reaction to colonization. I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about.

It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. You know that rush of endorphins you feel after a great workout? Well, that's when the real magic happens. So if you love hearing real, inspiring stories from the people you know, follow, and admire, join me every week for Post Run High. It's where we take the

conversation beyond the run and get into the heart of it all. It's lighthearted, pretty crazy, and very fun. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me as the fire and dare enter? Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonorum. An anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America.

From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters, to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of My Duda Podcast Network. Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline Podcast. And we're kicking off our second season digging into how Tex Elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires.

From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, better offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong though, I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear

to God things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. What immediately came to mind to me and what I was thinking of was Zionism. Yeah, that too. was Zionism. Yeah, that too.

Now, to be fair, it was, or rather, correct me if I'm wrong, it was a movement that existed prior to World War II, no? Yeah, yeah. Right. And then, you know, the experiences of World War II took place and there were different paths that the movement could have taken. And I don't want to invalidate the beginnings of the movement,

considering the experiences of Jewish people for centuries in Europe and the oppression and the pogroms and so on that they faced. But, well, we've seen the fruit of one particular path that that movement undertook. And that path has led to another nation struggling for its liberation, and that being the Palestinians. The common example of distinction used is that of the distinction

between white nationalism and black nationalism. White nationalism having a very clear history of violent supremacy and colonialism, while black nationalism was established in response to that experience of subjugation and colonialism, and with a desire for self-determination. The program of nationalism, specifically among oppressed nations, has generally seen the oppressed nation as a united block uh national liberation movements nationalist movements nationalist movements typically ignore class they ignore gender they ignore religion they ignore other divisions for the most part in favor of the development of an independent state which is usually some form of capitalist either state

capitalist welfare capitalist or a neoliberal. And nationalism is often weaponized and promoted by the ruling class in order to unite the oppressed classes with their domestic oppressors, replacing foreign capitalists with local capitalists, foreign generals with local generals, and foreign government officials with local officials, in a way to conceal the importance of class struggle. You see often in the cases of newly independent countries, there's almost a brief haze of, or rather let me speak, not generally, but from my own knowledge of my own history. Trans-Tibago gained independence in 1962 from the British. This was after a very brief period where we experimented with a West Indian Federation, West Indies being a designation of the Caribbean by the British.

The Federation failed, and so Trinidad and Tobago struck out on their own and so Trinidad became an independent country in 1962 and there was really a sense of you know joy and jubilant celebration because of that freedom you know we finally broke the shackles of the British um however it was a very it was certainly a very constitutional independence. You know, it wasn't an independence brought forth by violent struggle. You know, it wasn't a situation like Algeria. It was more so the British carefully groomed a generation of politicians and political leaders that would and business leaders that would take on the role that they were fulfilling in order to continue that colonial

situation in under new management essentially and the more familiar management and that very quickly became apparent to the population which is why we had the black power revolution in 1970 it was born out of the frustration that new management when everything was pretty much the same many people who experience the successes of independence and of nationalism that often bears that independence, they eventually come to recognize that nationalism was not enough. Nationalism has repeatedly failed to solve poverty, to solve oppression, exploitation, and suffering. While many states have become formally independent from their colonial masters thanks to nationalist movements, neocolonialism persévères. And yet, in spite of the continuation of oppression and suffering post-independence, you end up seeing some people's response to that being greater nationalism rather than an exploration of other options.

So it is this result of nationalism that has led to its criticism and opposition by anarchists. Again, there's a difference between nationalism and national liberation. But in that criticism of nationalism, I see some anarchists, while recognizing that there are class divisions within a nation, Some anarchists, while recognizing that there are class divisions within a nation, end up ignoring national divisions within a class in favor of some ideal and united working class. The truth is that the oppressed classes of some nations have benefited from the domination of the oppressed classes in other nations. So let's not do class reductionism. Nations that have had constant war waged against them for centuries tend to turn to nationalism for their national liberation. That's obvious. I think, you know, it could cut them some slack for not thinking about the global working class when they're literally under assault

for their national identity. When you're fighting colonial administrators and foreign armies, you're not studying the class war. Which is why historically, national liberation struggles using nationalism have ignored class divisions among the oppressed nation. But not always. Black nationalism, for example, has always been a very diverse political movement with several currents and opposing perspectives within it. political movement with several currents and opposing perspectives within it. The common thread is, of course, a resistance to the dominance of the white supremacist system and the assertion of black sovereignty, recognizing that we have to free ourselves without waiting for permission, recognizing we have to protect ourselves from the continued assault

of the empire, recognizing that we can be proud of and love our bodies, our minds, our heritage, a rejection of Eurocentrism. And yet some manifestations of Black nationalism have been reactionary, capitalistic, homophobic, and patriarchal. Others have stood in stark opposition to those currents. In particular, revolutionary Black nationalism, unlike other forms of Black nationalism, has consistently stood in opposition to all forms of oppression, including imperialism, white supremacy, and capitalism. In my view, and as many other Black anarchists have noted, revolutionary Black nationalism has a place in the struggle, in conjunction with the struggle against patriarchy, capitalism, and the state, as we aim to prefigure a world free of all forms of domination. In spite of our critiques of how nationalism tends to manifest, it is not the only way to undertake national liberation.

It is not the only way to undertake national liberation. We can incorporate other fights within that struggle. We can recognize the importance of national liberation while staying true to our principles. Anarchism is an internationalist movement. It aims for an entirely new world, not just a pocket of change here and there. But we cannot be so focused on that international struggle that we ignore the very vital local and regional struggles taking place. Internationalism and class struggle are not in contradiction to national liberation struggle. I believe a real internationalism has to stand in solidarity with the working class and peasantry everywhere, including those of oppressed nationalities. However, at the same time, we cannot uncritically support national liberation

struggles. We cannot afford to just write a blank check of support. It is necessary to engage politically with national liberation movements and engage in dialogues with all of their complexities and contradictions. Engaging with and uplifting the progressive elements within those national liberation struggles. While criticizing the reactionary elements within those struggles. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. hey guys i'm kate max you might know me from my popular online series the running interview show where i run with celebrities athletes entrepreneurs and more after those runs the conversations keep going that's what my podcast post run High is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. You know that rush of endorphins you feel after a great workout?

Well, that's when the real magic happens. So if you love hearing real inspiring stories from the people, you know, follow and admire join me every week for post run high. It's where we take the conversation beyond the run and get into the heart of it all. It's lighthearted, pretty crazy, and very fun. Listen to post run high on the I heart radio app Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome. I'm Danny Trejo. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora, an anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you.

Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how tech's elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and

naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong though, I love technology, I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out offline.com i think it's it's incredibly important i don't know if intervene in them is the correct thing is the the best way to put it but like you know from from the sort of like east asian perspective it's like yeah so we we had we had three successful national liberation movements like next to each other and then after they won their national liberation movements instead of like continuing the war against the u.s or whatever they went to war with each other so damn you know you have to sort of like something something

something very clearly went wrong with our natlib movements when well I mean obviously like okay something went very wrong with Khmer Rouge but like you know that's understating things but yeah yeah you know that's it but like you know they're like obviously the Khmer Rouge was fucked from the start but you know the fact that

like the US and Vietnam like the Vietnamese like army finally defeats the american colonizers and then basically immediately are invaded by china is a sign that like something went terribly terribly wrong in the process of these struggles and that like i don't know if if we're gonna do this properly you you have to make sure that like this shit doesn't happen because you know it's it's a just the the product of this is just sort of unfathomable human tragedy of a bunch of colonized people fucking murdering each other

for like nothing or you know i guess like china's immediate i don't know geopolitical realignment with the u.s in exchange for like industrial capital goods or some shit so you know you gotta you gotta make sure that doesn't happen yeah yeah and that means intervening okay like you say you don't want to say intervene necessarily but it does require having these discussions early on like you don't wait until after a preventable tragedy takes place to try and prevent a tragedy you know if you're seeing signs of of that the potential for that um you know probably do something about it if a movement is so fragile that a criticism of the way that it's structured or a criticism of an aspect of its ideology is enough to prevent it from succeeding or prevent preventing from collapsing into

internal divisions whatever the case may be then I don't think that it is robust enough to handle the struggle for its liberation yeah that's like they're definitely

you're definitely going to lose like yeah like if it's easy for an ally to criticize and you know maybe call something out and that's enough for everything to crumble how easy do you think it's going to be for like your actual enemies to

like come in and shake things up and like dismantle the organization from the inside. Yeah. You know, if you don't have room for dissent from, you know, your allies, from your compatriots, then what about your enemies? What do you think your enemies are going to try and capitalize on? They're going to try and fuel and empower that dissent and push it in different directions to even further splinter the movement you know it's it's complicated it's it's difficult it's

not something that i ever want to present myself as having all the answers for but you know i feel like certain things should be clear you know um maybe we should try and prevent certain issues from getting worse um if you see like for example a cult of personality developing maybe do something about it before that cult of personality has, you know, guns on their side and the full power of a state apparatus behind them. I mean, that's just me though. A truly internationalist position, in my view, recognizes that human unity can only be achieved through mutual respect, solidarity, alliance, and discourse among peoples. International revolution would require participation in national struggle for self-determination

and human dignity against imperialist domination. It would require a shift, as I always say, in our powers, in our drives, in our consciousness. I think we want to have solidarity with national liberation struggles. It really starts in that realm. And then also, I think there are ways that we can, as allies, intervene in certain aspects of that process. to that process you know in confrontation lending you know material support to protests or occupations in non-cooperation supporting strike funds in prefiguration providing resources you don't want these acts of solidarity to get lost in NGOs or in aid organizations whatever you're trying to get things...

Actually, that's a whole tangent. Let me just scratch that entirely. I'm going to go off. I'll leave off by saying that if we oppose male supremacy, the patriarchy, we must support women's fight against it. That doesn't mean blindly supporting,

you know, bourgeois,geois liberal girl boss feminism. It means listening to, learning from, and collaboratively developing the revolutionary feminist project to liberate all women from patriarchal domination, and ultimately all people. people. If workers decide to form a union, in many cases an existing union is pro-capitalist and hierarchical. And yet despite the structural issues with many unions, we still stand with the workers against the bosses, even as we try to convince them of the need for a transformation of those unions, of union militancy, of opposition to bureaucracy, in order to fully liberate them from class domination instead of merely engaging in dialogue with their oppressors. We can walk and chew gum at the same time is what I'm trying to say. We can act in solidarity without being subservient to what we may perceive to be

something that goes against our values. Solidarity, as I like to view it, is a discourse between peoples about how we determine our own freedom. We may disagree with certain things, we can critique certain things, we've seen again and again certain mistakes being made over and over again in movements and we can call them out, but you know, you can have your principles principles you can engage and you should engage in the complexity and contradictions and national liberation struggles offering critique where needs be resisting reactionary capitalist patriarchal and status elements when they manifest

and providing support in any way that you are able in any way that they request that you be. People on tomorrow's earth, think for yourself, what power to all people, usual things. That's it for me. You can support me on patreon.com slash sttrue and follow me on YouTube at androism.

This has been Ikrappan here with myself and Mia. Peace out. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular

online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow. Join me, Danny Trails, and step into the flames of fright. An anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America.

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