It Could Happen Here - Conviviality Part 2 Ft. Andrew

Episode Date: July 14, 2023

Andrew and Mia discuss how to bring anarchism into conviviality's often statist theorization and look at a few of the Convivialist ManifestosSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadowbride. Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of fright. An anthology podcast of modern-day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons?

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or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. Welcome to Gracias Come Again, a podcast by Honey German, where we get real and dive straight into todo lo actual y viral. We're talking music, los premios, el chisme, and all things trending in my cultura. I'm bringing you all the latest happening in our entertainment world and some fun and impactful interviews with your favorite Latin artists, comedians, actors, and

influencers. Each week, we get deep and raw life stories, combos on the issues that matter to us, and it's all packed with gems, fun, straight up comedia, and that's a song that only Nuestra Gente can sprinkle. Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to part two of Conviviality. What is it? What are people thinking about it? How is this funky Latin word changing and evolving and turning into an entire movement? And how is it affecting other movements?

Last time we spoke about the idea of country reality, you know, which is essentially good vibes, fun, happy, chill,

cool interactions between people, you know, living well together and enjoying life in the company of others, making sure people

are included and welcomed so they can relax and have a great experience we spoke about the illest multi-hyphenate that is evan illich we spoke about the philosophical foundations that are being built around conviviality and what those implications have been on metaphysics and philosophical anthropology and epistemology and more. And so now we're going to get into the actual movement. So the first manifesto was published by the Center for Global Cooperation Research in 2014.

It discusses some of our current threats, including global warming and its consequences, ecosystem degradation, nuclear disaster risk, scarcity poverty wealth disparities political disintegration interstate conflicts terrorism insecurity criminal networks influences speculative finance and politics blah blah blah blah blah you know you know the drill if you're in this space everything sucks it could happen here that's the name of the show etc um the central challenge is that we could drive ourselves to extinction right now if we don't turn this car around and we could take most of the world with us this particular manifesto is just asking four basic questions and their considerations and what we should consider about them right for one the moral

question what may individuals legitimately aspire to and where must they draw the line and the manifesto answers with considering that every individual has a legitimate aspiration to be treated with equal dignity to have access to the necessary material conditions for their vision of a good life or considering other perspectives and participate meaningfully in political life and decision making however individuals must also avoid exceeding bounds and succumbing to this infantile desire for power and control which jeopardizes social cohesion and the principle of common humanity what that means is that we need to actively be combating corruption um refusing to engage in actions that compromise personal values of personal gain

opposing the corruption others to the extent of one's ability to encourage fighting hierarchy I mean the manifesto doesn't say anything about fighting hierarchy which I think is a fault to the manifesto but I think for that I guess reading it the implications are pretty clear and that's what I have to do with a lot of the stuff I read you know like read between the lines and

pick up the points that the author missed and so that's the moral consideration, right? What should we aspire to? Where must we draw the line? We aspire to be intrigued with equal dignity, having access to decision-making power, having a good life

by having access to material conditions met. And we try to avoid exceeding boundaries, our social boundaries. And we should try to avoid exceeding boundaries, our social boundaries, and we should try to avoid exceeding social boundaries related to hierarchy and control and power. The second question is political. It asks us which are the legitimate political communities. So the manifesto argues that the establishment of a single world state in the near future is unlikely and political organization will continue to be based on a plurality of states

and that i think demonstrates the limitations of this manifesto's imagination of confidualism that's what happens when you have this clearly radical idea and you try to squeeze the radical idea into a fundamentally unradical and status quo idea as nation states um but let me not excessively editorialize i'm just presenting this movement and what its proponents have been arguing right according to their perspective states and political institutions are considered legitimate only if they uphold principles such as common humanity, common sociality, individuation, and managed conflict. To me, that's wishful thinking, but I digress. Legitimate states, and it pains me to even say this, again i'm just communicating i'm just communicating what the manifesto argues the legitimate states extend rights beyond civil and political rights to

encompass economic social cultural and environmental rights they ensure a minimum income for the poorest citizens while also implementing a maximum income to prevent excessive wealth accumulation. Legitimate states maintain a balance between private, common, collective and public goods and promote associational activities within a global civil society. They view digital networks as tools for democratization and treat them as commons, fostering openness, free access, impartiality and sharing. fostering openness free access impartiality and sharing and they also revived the tradition of public service and prioritize the preservation of existing common goods while promoting the development of new common goods for the benefit of humanity again it goes without saying i take issue with this investment in states i think a lot of their

goals are noble uh if not if they were not so tied down by this investment to this state structure um because from anicus perspective uh many of these ideas are not compatible with the structure of a state. And even theoretically, even hypothetically, if a state were to implement all of these changes where people had full participatory involvement in decision-making, where the hierarchies were flattened and where everyone had free access and open access and there were commons and all this la-di-da, some anarchists, not every, but some anarchists wouldn't even

consider that to be a state anymore. But let's just get into the weeds of anarchist discourse and we're moving on welcome i'm danny thrill won't you join me at the fire and dare enter nocturnal tales from the shadows presented by iheart Sonora. An anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. with supernatural creatures. I know you.

Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how tech's elite

has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible.

Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better.

Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere.

Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba.

Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, Eliane Gonzalez's story as part of the My Cultura podcast network available on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The third question that the manifesto asks is an ecological question, which is what we may take from nature, and which is what we may take from nature and which is what we must take from nature, which is what we may take from nature and what we must give back. And the manifesto asks us to consider that human beings should no longer see themselves as owners and masters of nature, but rather as interconnected with it right to ensure ecological justice and preserve a well-managed natural heritage for future generations humans must establish a relationship with nature based on giving back as much or more than they take the manifesto argues that the level of material prosperity that can be sustainably extended to the entire planet is roughly comparable to the average wealth of the wealthiest countries in the 1970s,

and that wealthier nations must bear the responsibility to reduce their demand on nature relative to 1970s standards, even as they maintain their current quality of life. Priorities of this manifesto include reducing CO2 emissions, emphasizing renewable energy sources, over-nuclear and fossil fuels, and shifting away from viewing animals as mere resources for industry. The principles of gift and interdependence should thus guide relationships with animals and the earth as a whole. Lastly, the first manifesto

leaves us with an economic question, which is how much material wealth may we produce and how should we go about producing it if we are to remain true to the answers given to the moral, political and ecological questions. Manifesto asks us to consider that there is no proven connection between monetary or material wealth and happiness, which promotes the need then to explore alternative forms of prosperity beyond economic growth. As you can see earlier on, we're making those connections to the idea of degrowth, more on that later. And so this calls for a plural economy that balances the market,

the public sector and social solidarity economy based on the nature of goods and services involved. Again, their perspective but while the markets and profitability are legitimate they must align with principles of common humanity social cohesion and ecological considerations and by addressing the issues of the financial economy, such as rent terrorism and speculation through strict regulation, oversight, market restrictions, and the elimination of tax havens, humanity can tap into a broader spectrum of riches beyond economic and material wealth, including the fulfillment derived from duty, solidarity, enjoyment, and creativity in various domains. Which, of course, highlights the importance of creativity and meaningful

relationships with others as an essential component of a prosperous society even if not materially or monetarily prosperous the manifesto goes on to define convivialism the term that they use to describe all those elements and existing systems of belief that help us identify principles for enabling human beings simultaneously to compete and cooperate with one another with a shared concern to safeguard the world and the full knowledge that we form part of that world and that its natural resources are finite. When it comes to convivialism, it's crucial for us to hold on certain principles that can guide us in managing conflict prioritizing cooperation while being mindful of the limitations posed by scarce resources recognizing respect not to interview points and doctrines opening the door

to engaging dialogue and praise to those perspectives and being open to questioning and growth all of that this manifesto sees as essential to the idea of convivialism it even goes on to propose convivialist policies right you know the minimum and maximum income protecting natural resources through reforms and regulations tackling unemployment promoting reduced working hours supporting the growth of the associationist economy of course i feel that's where the manifesto falls short but i do appreciate um the some of the ideas that it introduces or that it expounds upon. I may not appreciate all of the answers to the questions that itself, that it raises, but I appreciate it raising those questions, even if I might have slightly different answers

to them. The thesis of this manifesto seems to be that a different kind of world is not just possible, but crucial and urgently necessary. I don't like that it doesn't call out capitalism sufficiently or really at all. Yeah, it seems to have an overly cozy relationship with the state too, which is not the greatest. Not cool. not cool they do say um quote there will clearly be as many perhaps conflicting permutations of convivialism as there are of buddhism islam christianity judaism liberalism socialism communism etc not least because convivialism in no way invalidates these so fair enough in a sense i appreciate that they can accept that their particular interpretation is not the only one that there can be i'm sure by this particular passage they mean that there will be socialist orientations of convivialism and liberal orientations of

convivialism and christian orientations of convivialism and Christian orientations of convivialism and et cetera, because they don't see convivialism as incompatible with any of them. I think I might take some issue with, I guess, not refining convivialism further. I appreciate that they themselves didn't refine it because, you know, they're clearly quite liberal, but I think that contrarialism as an idea is something that needs to be distilled further. Because when you have this sort of

free-for-all, everybody and everything goes approach to the ideology, I think it opens up a lot of room for states and corporations and ngos to kind of slip in there and be like oh look at us we are gonna add confidabilism to our constitution and that kind of thing it's like then they go and everyone applauds and like wow xyz government just added convivialism to

their constitution three chairs for them and then the government just continues doing what it usually was doing before it added convivialism to its constitution you know it's like with with the whole um i spoke about in my buen vivir uh podcast episode yeah it's kind of like a situation with yasuni itt right ec right Ecuadorian government was like we are going to protect this forest we're not going to drill for oil in this forest even though it has a bunch of oil in this forest

over 6 billion dollars worth of oil in this forest we're just going to ask the international community for like 3.6 billion of that oil and once they all pay that we're not going to drill the oil and we want to set this precedent for other countries to follow and yada yada and we added when we it's our constitution and all that cash money right but then they got like 200 million dollars

worth of pledges and then they were like actually no we're still gonna do it even though we didn't get all the money and then a year later they're like nah we're not gonna do it anymore and then a couple years after that they started drilling in the um national park and a couple years after that yeah they started drilling even further even closer to indigenous territories within the park so you know um that's like i caught up in the fluffy woods of states and corporations. Yeah, there was a version of this that happened in Bolivia where they did like a very similar thing. And then within half a decade, like riot police were storming the offices of like of one of the giant indigenous confederations. So it's, you know. Yeah, I mean, keep in mind, a lot of what states do a lot of politicians too is just pr

right and i think a lot of people are able to recognize that when it's happening in their own country but due to ignorance perhaps of other countries they see a politician doing the same thing in another country they're like wow why can't we be more like them and it's like well yeah to be fair you know there are politicians and governments that are doing better than other politicians and governments and i'm not gonna like blind my eye to that but yeah you know at the end of the day they're still politicians they're still governments they're still doing their pr, putting out their best image, putting out their best foot forward to hold on to whatever

power they have. Yeah, and with both Ecuador and Bolivia too, it's like, well, okay, if you want your politicians to have PR like that, you too can block every single road in your country and start starving your capital out. Yeah, yeah.

Politicians do not descend from the heavens. They are the product of a combination of material conditions and social forces. So get better social forces. Exactly. Exactly. That's the... That's how we elevate a pitch for anarchism, by the way. Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter? Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonorum, an anthology of modern-day

horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of My Duda Podcast Network. Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline Podcast. And we're kicking off our second season digging into how Tex Elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, better offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse

and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough, so join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry

and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel.

I mean, he look so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with.

His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. But I did see there were two manifestos, right? So what about the second manifesto right this manifesto number two published by the convivialist international in 2020 recent and they define uh convivialism as

a comprehensive philosophy that encompasses humanist civic and political principles aimed at fostering harmonious coexistence in the modern era emphasizing the importance of living together and outlining normative principles to guide that endeavor second manifesto of convivialism emphasizes the need for a new political philosophy to challenge neoliberalism and address global issues pause this idea of um it's something that you see a lot particularly in that sort of NGO space right a lot of not radical organizations and movements will speak about challenging neoliberalism. And it could usually tell because they specify neoliberalism. They don't say capitalism. They're not anti-capitalist.

They're just anti-neoliberalism, which in itself is not radical because neoliberalism in itself is just a recent permutation of capitalism. Yeah, and I should point out, as bad as neoliberalism is like, there are forms of capitalism that are worse than it. So, you know,

see, see as evidence, world war two. Yeah. Yeah. I just wanted to put that on the record. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. But just, just for the sake of people's own ability to scrutinize information and scrutinize movements, it's an interesting trick of the language because by rallying against neoliberalism, they're able to bring in all the anti-capitalist people into the mix and draw from that crowd. that crowd but a lot of these movements are not themselves anti-capitalist um and you know if you want something more than a nicer capitalism that is something to keep in mind even if you were and even if you know you take part in the movement um nothing wrong with that still something to keep in mind uh so the second manifesto it also highlights the interconnectedness of young people's concerns about climate change and environmental degradation uh talks about the struggles of those seeking freedom from dictatorships or those being forced

to migrate um and it aims to offer an alternative vision for a post-neoliberal world by promoting shared values and a sense of agency. Furious intellectuals, activists, writers, and artists are all committed to this collective project with the aim of creating this globally shared vision for the future that is more inclusive and more participatory. The manifesto, the second manifesto, like the first one uh talks about um

the post-world war ii growth in principles like human rights um and the shift in capitalism towards speculative and rentier practices uh talks about the decline of liberal democracies and the rise of illiberal democratures and speaks about resentment growing from past colonial domination and radical movements including Al-Qaeda reflecting that animosity again like the previous manifesto

it talks about ecological threats like global warming and air pollution uh oceanic pollution accumulation of plastic waste nuclear disasters weakening ecosystems rise unemployment job displacement wealth inequality uh lack of regulation for transnational companies physical fragmentation, all that fun stuff. And this time, the second manifesto outlines five principles to form the basis of policies or ethics or organizational actions, right? Common naturality, common humanity, common sociality, legitimate individuation, and creative opposition.

These principles emphasize 1. the interconnectedness of humans with nature, 2. the importance of respecting the shared humanity of all individuals, 3. the value of social relationships, 4. the need for individuals to develop the individuality while respecting others and five the recognition of peaceful rivalry for the common good these principles are meant to be guided by the imperative of hubris control which promotes cooperation and prevents the desire for power and excess a manifesto also emphasizes the importance of balancing these principles to avoid their potential negative consequences one of the things that the manifesto is really trying

to get at in particular and the reason that it even establishes this imperative for hubris control is because it argues that ideologies focus primarily on satisfying material needs and overlook the crucial role of recognition and desire and that by reducing politics to the fulfillment of needs ideologies fail to address the problem of limiting the desire for power and control to me it just seems like um the people who wrote this manifesto aren't familiar with anarchism and anarchism's centuries-long confrontation with power control and the desire for it that has altered the course of various human societies but i digress um the manifesto instead points to religions as playing the historical role of trying to curb our desire for power and control um that seems to me like a very poor argument considering the history of religion but

the point that the manifesto is trying to make is that modern democratic discourses struggle to restrain limitless desire and often reproduce the hubris of the aim to combat and so the role of a convivialist movement then should be in part on persuading individuals to renounce the desire for dominance and reinforce the principles of common humanity, sociality, naturality, legitimate innovation and creative opposition. legitimate integration, and creative opposition. Again, I don't think that the direction people are taking convivialism is radical enough, because I think it leaves room for it to fall into existing structures. I mean, the manifesto even talks about creating a convivialist party to reignite hope in liberal democracy. Yeah, and I also want to just point out the sort of like,

Yeah, and I also want to just point out the sort of like, just how weak of a position it is to, you know, have one of your goals be just to convince individual people to want less power. Like, I think that's just sort of boldly anti-structural as a prescription. Yeah. just sort of boldly anti-structural as a prescription yeah um but i mean i guess that's something that i've come to expect uh from certain milieus right a lack of engagement with uh structural domination and how structures inform how individuals behave you know like yes individuals act within structures but i think people will vastly underestimate structural incentives like it's not just about

oh if you get rid of this bad person from a position of power and put this good person in a position of power then everything will be hunky-dory like nah they're still they're still like you still haven't confronted the way that that structure that position incentivizes certain behavior but like i said before i'm an anarchist i take what i like i leave what i don't um they also say in the manifesto that confibilism belongs to nobody so i've decided that you know my vision of convivialism is not going to be this watered down watercress salad kind of pithy weak limp-wristed take on you know world-altering structural change lastly um i didn't want to touch on because i did say i would um this significant role that conviviality has played in the degrowth movement particularly highlighted in texts like

degrowth a vocabulary for a new era um inspired by evans ideas confiviality and degrowth has referred many to a society that values joyful sobriety, responsible consumption, and the use of limited tools that are emancipatory and responsive to human needs. The ideas that Ivan outlined in Tools for Confiviality, which I spoke about in the first part of this two-parter, is considered part of the intellectual roots of degrowth as an idea itself. And conviviality is often discussed in relation to technologies, including digital technologies, and how technology is suitable to a degrowth society must be convivial.

convivial. One particular tool has been developed for self-assessment, political education, research and learning with convivial principles and that is the matrix for convivial technology or MCT. And the matrix for convivial technology is to go with a very basic definition, is to go with a very basic definition a normative schema that fosters discussion concerning degrowth technologies in context of political education the MCT is meant for us to reflect on the dimensions

of the materials we use in technologies and how we produce those technologies how we use the technologies how the technologies fit into the infrastructure um how accessible they are um how how interactive they are with the environment how adaptable they are in changing circumstances and much more how appropriate they are and much more but beyond the mct conviviality is also being used in the degrowth space to describe public spaces, goods, conservation movements, and even humans within degrowth literature. Transitioning to a convivial society is considered to be one of the core objectives of the degrowth movement, one of the core shifts that needs to take place for us to degrow as a society.

And so that's the long and short of it. The Confivialist Manifesto, Confivialism and Confiviality as Ideas, how they've changed and been adapted and how people have been building on the ideas they're in, in the sphere of philosophy and politics and education and technology and more. Food for thought. I hope you appreciated this brief exploration. As I like to say at the end of

my videos, and I consider it particularly apt here in the context of conviviality and convivial technology is all power to all the people. Once again, you could find me, Andrew, on youtube.com slash andrewism and support me on patreon.com slash stdrew. And as usual, this has been It Could Happen Here, where things happen. We talk about stuff. Peace.

It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow Brass. Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of rife. An anthology podcast of modern-day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso as they explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. The 2025 iHeart Podcast Awards are coming. This is the chance to nominate your podcast for the industry's biggest award.

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