It Could Happen Here - CZM Book Club: Reverse Book Club: Talking "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" with Bridget, Hazel and All of You

Episode Date: September 13, 2026

To close out Black August, Margaret sits down with Bridget Todd and Hazel Acacia to finish talking about one of the most iconic Trek episodes ever made (S6E13: Far Beyond the Stars of Deep Space Nine)- and you're invitedSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. There's no shortcut for saving time, but saving money is simple. Just combine your car and home insurance with Bel Air Direct and save. Get a quote at bellairdirect.com. Hi, this is Kylie Brakeman. Angel Geratana. Jeremy Colhain, Patrick McDonald.

And we're the hosts of the Artists on Artists on Artists on Artists Podcast. The Improvised Character Comedy Podcast where each week a new panel of artists discuss their craft. Join us for a panel of Eurovision participants. And we do a little Halloween sometimes. Does the Pope dress up? He winks on Halloween. It's right up next to the microphone. I hear you can almost hear the eyelashes hit each other.

You never seen Italy so quiet as when the Pope gets up to wink on Halloween. Listen to Artists on Artists on Artists every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I survived nine months in captivity. and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to the Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Didn't catch the latest Roland Martin unfiltered podcast? Here's what you missed. People wake up and go, oh, damn, wait a hold up. They change all of that. Yes. It's real. This is a wholesale attack. It is targeting black people in every federal agency.

It's raw. White folks have never allowed that reckoning to last more than a decade. Catch Roland Martin's daily commentary on the Black Information Network. And download Roland Martin Unfiltered on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts. Allzone Media Book club Book club

Book club Club Club Club Club Club Club Club Club Club Club Welcome to Cool Zone Media Book Club Club the only book club where you didn't have to do any reading at all

because it's like a TV show I used to actually we had a sci-fi movie watching club once and it was specifically so that we didn't want to go to the anarchist book club so we scheduled it on the same night and then we went to it instead and that's how we watched

aliens instead of reading theory. And we're like, oh, sorry we can't make it to book club. Anyway, that's a really important story that you all need to know about me. But what you also need to know is that this was an episode about watching a Deep Space 9 episode. And it's part two of that. And I have guests. And one of them is my producer, Hazel.

Hi, Hazel. Hi, Margaret. And one of them is the host of there are no girls on the internet, Bridget Todd. Hi, Margaret. Hi, Hazel. Thanks for having me. And now we're going to get back into our discussion, but we recorded this part later. And so it's going to get put in because the whole thing, you probably figured out the gist of what's happening. Yeah, I want to tie in here some of our listener commentary from the Reddit.

I'm just going to quote people directly. User Prune with three used Tracy says, I enjoyed seeing Herbert Quark's Jewish-coated character calling his boss a fascist and being ready to throw down for Benny at times. However, I wondered what impact this had on Benny and whether it was helpful solidarity or, in a way, alienating. Interested in others' perspectives on this. And a little bit of context. In the Deep Space Nine universe, Quark is the Ferengi bartender on the station. He's like a small little weird guy from like a very money-based capitalist alien race with like huge ears, cultures all about the ears.

And in 1950s, he appears as Herbert Rousseoff, science. fiction author who is very Jewish-coded, is kind of applied to be a communist, again, sort of subverting the thing about like quark and money. Strengthen the Loins replies on Reddit, turning quark into the sympathetic socialist always seemed like a mistake to me. Given how quark is, his old character should have been villainous, like a landlord or business owner that sticks the cops on Benny or otherwise makes his life worse. And Prune Tracy responds, Hmm, I don't mind the fact that the 1950s characters weren't in direct analogy to their DS9 counterparts. And I especially liked the contrast to cork, given that the Ferengi are often associated with anti-Semitic tropes, although I think I've read that Armand-Shimmerman didn't necessarily feel that way.

Hazel note, Armand Shimmerman is Jewish, I believe, but you should probably fact-checked me on that before believing it. I actually read it user Prune Tracy. That said, I do still wonder how sympathetic of a portrayal it is, as I do feel like he's maybe a speaking for Benny without Benny necessarily wanting or endorsing it. I was reading this great paper by Roger Sneed that analyzes themes in the episode three theological lens. It's called Revelation as a reality, Star Trek Deep Space Nines far beyond the stars,

and black prophetic visions, and then there's a DOI link, where the author speculates that Herbert slash Quark may be jumping in more from personal antipathy towards Pabst, who, again is Hazel note. This is the editor who is played by Odo, and in the Deep Space Nine universe, Park and Odo are always at each other's throat. So Herbert may be jumping in more from a personal antipathy

towards Pabst than an actual desire for social justice, which is, I think, the vibe that I was getting. Either way, I love seeing Shimmerman get this role. Back to me, Hazel now, sort of another layer on top of this is often, you know, in like sort of the fun facts about the episodes, you'll read, you know, that a lot of these characters are appearing on screen

without their character makeup for the first time, without their prosthetics. And a lot of them, you know, kind of felt more free. But Armin Schumerman, who plays Cork, was specifically really anxious about appearing without his prosthetics. Like he was really used to sort of relying on how the forehead and the ears worked to sort of give the character the vibe and help him get into, you know, help him embody the character. And so it was like a particular challenge to not have that to lean on. But yeah, I'm sort of curious about this, like the role of black and Jewish solidarity in the civil rights era. And also, like, you know, where does advocacy or, you know, trying to interrupt depression, sort of become a little bit more self-serving?

How is, like, authenticity sort of playing into all of this? I don't know. What do you guys think? Because you're smarter than me. I'm just a bitch. I can see both sides. Honestly, that Reddit poster was making some good points I hadn't previously thought of. I will say, though, one of the dopest lines of the whole episode,

him yelling, what is it? I'm not going to let some too-bit fascist call me a pinko. Yeah, totally. I tried to read this academic article, but it was ivory-towered away from me. It's behind the equivalent of a paywall, but I don't have institutional access to this article. I want to push back against the article I've never read,

which is a really fun thing to do and always really safe. Obviously, Odo and Quark have a strong dynamic of antipathy on the show, but also like a deep love at the same time, they're very like, you know, they're very tightly connected with each other in this interesting way. But I think that the Jewish presence in civil rights and actually, especially prior to the civil rights movement of the 1950s, some of the only white people involved in black struggle in the United States in the first half of the 20th century were communists and specifically the Communist Party, which is not my favorite thing to advocate for, but like just straight up.

That's just the truth, right? The people who were fighting the hardest for anti-racism was a very integrated black and white communist movement in the United States. And obviously, this character does not identify as a communist. But specifically Jewish solidarity was very strong in the early half of the 20th century. And the thing about Jewish tropes is that you have this bifurcation of the tropes where the Jew is both the capitalist and the communist. And it kind of depends on when you're looking at this Jewishness. And if you're looking at it in the first half of the 20th century, you're much more likely, I believe, based on my historical reading, which of course skews

towards the left, to have the assumption that the Jewish person is an immigrant or is the child of immigrants and is a dirty socialist, is a dirty panko, right? And to be involved in anti-racist struggle. So to me, it just felt perfectly in character. And so I think the more interesting question is whether or not it's speaking over or for people. But you know, I don't think that it's the character doing it, like, that character is just fucking acting how they think. You know, they're not like trying to be a good ally in a 21st century woke way. They're just like, are you fucking kidding me?

You're going to fucking do that? That's fucked up. Just instinctive, you know? Yeah, doesn't have to be like an articulation of a clear practice. Yeah, totally. Sometimes shit's fucked up and you're mad about it and you're yelling in the office. Have you ever seen that video of the kid who beats his dad for calling his friend the N-word.

No. And the kid is like 14. It's like, stop calling my friend and then says the N-word, you know? And then the dad says it one more time, so the kid knocks his dad unconscious. Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's not a clear articulation

of like the kid said the word, you know? It's like, your heart's in the right place, but I have one thing to say, Hazel, when you were talking about how the. Star Trek actors felt about being in or out of their prosthetics and their makeup. I never knew Worf is a babe. Oh, yeah.

Oh, Michael Dorn. Worf is like the slick baseball player when we first see him in the 50s world. He's wearing like a red suit and like he's trying to take Benny's gal. I was like, oh shit. Might have worked on me. Yeah, I remember the first time that I watched this episode, I didn't recognize anybody. I was like, who were all these people? And then I remember being at the end of that, I was like, damn, that was the best episode.

I got to go read all the Wikipedia about it. It was like, oh shit. Like everybody is a character like that newsboy was nag and the guy who hands out all the illustrations is General Martock. And it was like so fun and then get to watch it again and have a fresh experience. Like, again, I love media that like unlocks itself as you watch it. And then every time you like get new meaning out of it. And like, I've seen this episode probably 10 times. And even this time, like, I always find something new.

I always find something that is like, oh, shit, they did that. And kind of in character, am I like, oh, shit, they did that? I found myself thinking about O'Brien's character a lot. Chief Miles O'Brien in the Deep Space Nine universe is the chief mechanic, right? Chief engineer. But do you know what was in DS9 in the 90s, but isn't as commonly in a now? Is it maybe advertisements? It is. It is. It's interesting how shows were like written around moments of going to ads in a way that they're not anymore. I'd say we really lost

something, but I'm not sure we did. But here's ads. There's no shortcut for saving time, but saving money is simple. Just combine your car and home insurance with Bel Air Direct and save. Get a quote at bellairdirect.com. Hey, everyone. It's the Jonas Brothers with the Hey, Jonas podcast. We've been catching up with some great friends, Paul Rudd, Michael Boubley, Seth Myers, Nile Horan, Jake Shane, and making some new friends while getting into what's really like to have sisters, like Alex and Ashton Earl. She likes to control everyone and tell everyone. Okay, well, control is a harsh word. I would say that's a harsh word. I am more outspoken.

Growing up a lot of the times because she was so quiet. I would speak for like the both of us. Now I'm working on like thinking a moment, reeling it and thinking before I speak. And Joey King. You know if your mom is yelling at your sibling, and even if you're annoyed with your sibling, you just won't let that slide. It's like, only you can yell at your sibling. I'm like, you can't do that here. That is what I talk about her like that. Only I talk about her like that.

Plus, we've been taking your calls, listening to your voicemails and giving you advice. Or at least trying to. So if you've got catching up to do, now is the perfect time. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. When I was 14 years, old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months. I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files. I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying,

shut up, don't say anything. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, He was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. There's stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to the Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your for-you page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsesives, and anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. As someone says. From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments,

nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to pro society on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages. And we're back. I didn't think streaming where like, yeah, where your ads just kind of interrupted,

did take something away from the experience of watching. I mean, I think in general we've lost a lot of from streaming. Like, it used to be like you were turning on the television. I'm going to watch the same thing. And I know that 10 million other people are also watching the same thing as me. And I don't get that same experience now. But we are talking about Chief Miles O'Brien, who in the.

Deep Space Nine universe is the chief engineer. And so he works with like all of the stations, computers and stuff and he's real wicked smart and whatnot. And in the 1950s magazine, he's like their best writer. He writes a lot about robots. He's sort of, you know, modeled on Isaac Asimov, according to, you know, all the fun facts. But he has a stutter. I found myself reflecting on it as like such an interesting move. And also one of these things that is like kind of of multi-layered, you know, on the one hand, right? Like, the guy who's not very good at talking is really good at writing. You know, I think that, that tension is really interesting to me of, like, maybe he's, like, he's not good at talking about his stories are really good. Or it's, you know,

sort of the opposite of, he's actually not very good with words, you know, he just is a white guy who writes about robots and, you know, there's not, nothing too controversial going on. And so, again, these stories aren't so good, but he's still getting paid. four cents a word, an extra cent. He, like, sells a book in the, in the middle of the episode. And, yeah, I mean, I think it's one of these things where, like, you know, both of them can be true,

and they both, you know, sort of lend this interesting meaning. It's not either around, you know, sort of not judging someone, you know, not judging a book on the cover, or, you know, a commentary on sort of white mediocrity and the, like, black folks have to work twice as hard to get half as much. Again, one of these moments of like, I love that it's all there.

I love that we get everything. I really like how you put that. I have the exact same kind of trajectory with that character of, you know, Benny is writing these like complicated stories and having to really work hard just to get any kind of recognition. And watching, I mean, I have to imagine this is by intention. And I certainly know a thing or two about it. but like watching it kind of come so easily to someone else in your cohort. Not to say that they're not smart or they don't work hard or they're not talented,

but I just know what that feels like to have everything that you do feel like such a struggle and such a challenge and fight. And then seemingly, oh, this guy who writes his nice stories about robots. And specifically their editor is like, we need to write stories, not stories about black, and white, stories about robots, not stories about issues, as if science fiction does not explore, you know, complex, political, or social, or racial issues. But yeah, I just, I really identified with that vibe of like, he's a nice guy. These stories probably are good, but also, look how easy it seems like shit is for him. I like the fact that he's a nice guy

and friends with Benny. And, like, they're talking, like, he's the first one he meets. He's, like, sees him outside. They're clearly friends. Because it makes that. that tension so much more fisseral, you know? Like, Benny's not mad at O'Brien, but, God, that's got to be frustrating. Yeah. I mean, and there's also, like, an air of that, like, O'Brien is kind of apologetic about it, too. He seems, like, conscious of what's going on. Well, I just sold a book, but it seems like in bad taste because of the struggle that you're

having. I liked that writer's room. I liked all of these different ways that people. people are responding to this thing happening. And most people are trying to be supportive, but kind of in a way where they're like, I don't know how to do this, right? You know, or they're like, I don't know what it was all a dream. I don't know.

You know? Yeah. Or like, you know, Kay here's character is the first one to sort of bring up that like Benny has come in with like visible wounds. And they've all sort of heard, you know, that he's, you know, been brutalized by the police. And Kay is the one to, like, address it as the woman in the room, as, you know, the person who also doesn't go through the same thing that goes through things that are similar,

not necessarily comparable. And it addresses it with a lot of compassion and, like, wants to make space for, you know, Benny's pain and any struggle. Yeah, I like that her characters, I mean, like, it's one early on we're hearing about, you know, she's also not able to be in the picture because she's a woman. It would be very easy and very 90s for the show to kind of pit their, like put their struggles in competition. And I appreciate that that's never done. It will be very 90s to do that, though.

Yeah. Well, I think I want to maybe bring it home with one last Reddit comment and this sort of tie us back into the Black August theme that we touch in and out of on. So this one, this last comment comes from real hot guts once again. fabulous Reddit name. I'm a huge Trek fan, so I'm forever doing rewatches. Last time I rewatched this DS9 episode happened to land somewhere in the aftermath of the George Floyd murder and the BLM movement, which made this episode actually kind of bleak. This was an episode written in the 1990s looking back at racism in the 1950s, particularly

the role of police and police brutality in enforcing that. It is likely that, for the predominantly white writing and production team, the killing of Rodney King by the LAPD, and the subsequent riots and scandals had a significant influence on this episode and its themes. To watch this in the 2020s, following yet another high-profile murder of a black man by an American police force, really carried a heavy sense that things just don't change. Which isn't true, of course. What's actually happened is that hard-won reforms and changes have been meticulously unpicked between these incidents by powerful people who,

basically like racism and think it's good. I don't know if that's more or less bleak, but I don't want to be a buzzkill about this really powerful episode, so I'm going to lean into the positive and say that the fact that they have to keep rolling back reforms is because we, black people, allies, minorities, and marginalized people of all kinds, keep claiming rights and space for ourselves,

and we will continue doing that for as long as there are people trying to repress us, and eventually we will outpace them. A thing that hits about this for me is like sort of the cyclical story that it's telling, you know, both about racism in the 1950s, racism in the 1990s on the Star Trek set, and also about how Benjamin Cisco interacts with his identity as a black man in the 2300s.

I don't know. What are other people thinking about this? That was probably the thing I felt most kind of, the thing that felt weightiest to me in the episode. And, you know, when the episode starts, I was really struck by the sort of heaviness and loss and trauma and destruction that Cisco is like really grappling with. And I really kind of felt this heaviness in him of just looking around for a way out.

And I feel this episode is a kind of a commentary on that, both the character and also the actor. of like a little bit of a reprieve from what sounds like it was sometimes not the most pleasant experience of shooting this show dealing with a fandom that we know can be, you know, sometimes not the most chill when it comes to issues of race.

No, actually, that's interesting because I think about how I keep being like, and you don't have to watch the rest. And to be fair, I haven't seen Deep Space Nine in its entirety since I was very young. So I don't remember all of the context. I know that there's this huge war going on, and that he keeps losing people who are close to him.

And you're right, that it shouldn't be totally separated from that context. It shouldn't be totally understood as an entirely discrete story. And I think that that does tie into... I'm still just starting to learn about Afrofuturism. I've been around it. I've seen elements of it for a long time. But I think it's really important to understand how it's different than like white or race blind

conceptions of science fiction and stuff like that. And I think it might be, some of it might be around this context of heaviness and loss and like what escapism looks like is different based on the situation you're in. And I think that's like one of the reasons this episode particularly resonates with me right now

is that as we are living under fascism and everything feels really precarious. Like it's really easy to see. I live in the history. books that I read for my show much more, much more deeply than I would have otherwise, right? I find myself, when I read fiction, I'm a little bit more deeply escapist in a way that I haven't been since I was young and had a not particularly wonderful experience of middle school, you know?

I feel so similarly, you know, I think I actually like really dialed into this from listening to your show, which is like, When things are really hard and you're in a hard place, it sometimes feels like things are hopeless. But what is useful for me is like remembering that my ancestors, as a black woman, my ancestors certainly went through very, very difficult experiences, harder than I will ever know. And they still had to dream that a better future was possible

and that they might be in that future. Their ancestors might be in that future. You know that expression? You're your ancestors wildest dream. Like, I feel like this episode really captures that well that, you know, being able to imagine a future that is better than the one that you have is Afrofuturism. That's science fiction. That's speculative. And that's also, it can be a social and political praxis.

You know, there was this artist, Alicia Wormsley, who used to have this project when we were in this, like, horrible wave of unarmed black folks being killed by police. put up billboards that just said, there are black people in the future. And I remember feeling so moved by that because it's so simple and it seems so, you know, it seems so basic, but even just like that affirmation that we will be here in the future, you can't pulp us, you can't pulp our dreams, you can't, you know, you can't kill us all. We will be here in the future. Maybe in 400 years we'll be manning space stations in space. Colored folks on the moon is how he describes the same.

story. Like, I really found a lot of, a lot of meaning in that. I don't think it's a coincidence than to tie back to the Jewish black solidarity that was a big part of early 20th century struggle, that like, we will outlive them was like such an important reference. There's no shortcut for saving time, but saving money is simple. Just combine your car and home insurance with Bel Air Direct and Save. Get a quote at bellairdirect.com. Hey everyone, it's the Jonas Brothers with the Hey Jonas podcast. We've been catching up with some great friends, Paul Rudd, Michael Bublay, Seth Myers, Nile Horan, Jake Shane,

and making some new friends while getting into what's really like to have sisters, like Alex and Ashton Earl. She likes to control everyone and tell everyone what to do it. Okay, well, control is a harsh word. I would say that's a harsh word. I am more outspoken. Growing up a lot of the times because she was so quiet. I would speak for like the both of us. Now I'm working on like thinking a moment, really nitty.

I'm thinking before I speak. And Joey King. You know if your like mom is yelling at your sibling and even if you're annoyed with your sibling, you just like won't let that slide. It's like only you can yell at your sibling. I'm like, you can't do that here. That is.

You do not talk about her like that. Only I talk about her like that. Plus, we've been taking your calls, listening to your voicemails and giving advice. Or at least trying to. So if you've got catching up to do, now's the perfect time. Listen to Hey Jonas on the Iheart Radio app,

Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months. I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files. I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.

They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. There's stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to the Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your for-you page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought

daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. Someone says. From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.

It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to pro society on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. See you between the pages. Well, I have a question for you.

What's your relationship to the Star Trek universe and Deep Space Nine? Are you like a casual fan? Oh, we should have done this at the beginning. I grew up in like a nerd household, a pretty deeply nerd household, our idea of a good time. We would go to the beach so we'd stop at the library and everyone had to make sure they had enough books for the weekend, which would usually be about three books, would might be enough for the weekend, you know? It's like a book of day. day. Yeah, yeah, about that.

And I remember, like, I wasn't really allowed to let car sickness stop me from reading in the car. I learned, I don't know if this is true universally, but as a kid, I learned that I used to be car sick when I'd try and read in the car. And then I would keep reading, and then eventually I stopped being car sick. And I, like, learned how to not get car sick while reading in the car. So we grew up watching Star Trek. And I watched a lot of Deep Space Nine as it was coming out. but I also wasn't

I like left Star Trek behind for a long time I mean one of the first like subcultural spaces I ever went to was like a Star Trek convention when I was like a kid and I was like I really wanted one of those Klingon swords real bad but I didn't have any money so I did not get a Klingon sword but I've been kind of coming back to Star Trek I'm not a I think I'm like casual plus

you know I've seen most of the Star Trek that came out before the 21st century. I'm certain I've seen all of the original. I'm certain I've seen all of Next Generation. I've probably seen all of Voyager and DS9, but I'm not sure. What about you? Yeah, I would say pretty cash.

My, I mean, my late father, God rest his soul, was the heartbeat of the nerddom of our household. And he was the kind of person who was like up late at night watching this kind of stuff. And, you know, watching the episode, I was like, oh, I wish I could ask my dad what he thought about this episode. Oh, that's cool. It was like, top of mine was like, I wish I had gotten the chance to, because I'm sure I had opinions, you know. But it was just, it honestly, it's just like a nice piece of encapsulated speculative science fiction.

Like, it really, I wish we had. And there's probably good stuff on TV that I'm not watching and not familiar with. so people will have to give me their wrecks. But this felt like something different that we don't have a lot of today in 2026. Yeah, I think we get some stuff that's like, there's some stuff that's happening now that I think is amazing. I think Andor, have you seen Andor? I have not. Oh, you have to.

So I'm even more casual with my Star Wars than I'm with my Star Trek. But Andor solves all of my problems with Star Wars, which is that I don't really care about space wizards. You'd think I would. But like, I just like kind of don't care about like spaceogenics where like if you're a real wizard Harry Potter, it's like in your blood or whatever. and or is, I think, the best representation of revolution that's ever been put on television of any kind. And you should totally see that. But there is also some of the newer Star Trek is good.

Some of the lower decks really surprised me because Lower Dex is the comedy cartoon one, and it's really good. And then I've also, I've been enjoying, but I'm not caught up on Starfleet Academy, which is like, I think, the newest trek. and recently Star Trek, the ship when it comes through

has like a rainbow behind it and I've been calling it Woke Trek to make fun of it and myself but you know it's always been Woke Trek obviously there's like elements of conservatism woven throughout it too and it's like failed in a lot of regards as well

but like they set out to create Woke Trek and when they first made Star Trek you know. I'm going to start calling it Woke Trek that's so good well Final thoughts about this episode? I have one. I always have one.

I always have thoughts. This is why I'm talking to a mic, but I don't need to go first. Yeah, I just think this is the question of who gets to imagine the future, you know, who gets to dream. That's kind of what I'm left with with this episode, sort of grappling with that question. And I think we all get to dream, you know.

They can't pulp our dreams. Yeah. I like how pulp has multiple meanings. because pulp is also like the way people describe like pulpy fiction, although it's, it's etymologically related, right? It's these like cheap magazines, you know, cheap stories or whatever. My final thought is to reflect back on something that Hazel said a while ago that I just have been sitting with me ever since they said it, which is about how there's an alchemy

to the creation of art, especially large, complex pieces of art that have many people involved in making them. And that is, as much as I love writing and like individually, written stories. I think there's actually a specific alchemy that is found from the creative process that has to be collaborative like a show. And I like that people can pick apart things, some of which were meant and some of which weren't meant, and yet are still real. And I feel like that even gets into the theme of this episode, but I don't know how to put my finger on it, but I don't know that I need to. Yeah, I think that this episode is such a master class in like,

leaving meaning open and like not letting the future like denying closure but in a way that's really powerful kind of like both with what you were saying Margaret but also just in like the kind of piece of earth that it is like allegedly there's like an alternate ending that was written and maybe filmed that like ends with Benny Russell directing an episode of Star Trek

which I think rules you know and obviously like I mean, that would be kind of putting a little bit too fine a point on it. I do, if you really push me, I would tell you that all of Star Trek is just Benny Russell's writing from the 1950s, sort of canonically. But anyway, I think that, like, yeah, this episode's interest in lack of closure and interested in the multiple meanings and multiplicity of identity. Yeah, it's really interesting to me. And maybe there's something there about, like, that's a way future, right? the Zapatistas tell us to look for a world in which many worlds fit.

This is a story in which many stories fit. This is an episode in which many episodes fit. Yeah. And I'm not really smart enough to tell you all about it. I'm just a bitch. But there's some really smart people over at Starter Trek who also recently did it. And if you really want the deep dive on all of the lore, I'd recommend going to go check out their episode. This was not planned.

I'd had this episode penciled in. for like three or four months now. But yeah, obviously Andrew T. and Tony Newsom, our buds, Jesse Gender, has been making Star Trek content forever that I've consumed and I've respected. So, yeah, and I did avoid listening to it so that we didn't retread the same territory here. But yeah, you should go check out their stuff. If you are interested in Star Trek, interested in smart people talking about Star Trek. So.

Well, but what if people are interested in hearing more of Bridget Todd's analysis of other stuff? Is there a way, Bridget, that people could do that? Oh, I've got you covered. Much like this episode grapples with what is real, quote unquote, if that's something that tickles a spot on your brain. I have an entire new audiobook about AI intimacy and what we risk when we outsource the basics of human connection to AI that is run by tech companies that, spoiler alert, you cannot always trust. You can check it out.

It's called Love at First Prompt, AI in the Future of Intimacy. You can check it out at love at firstprompt.com. And you can also listen to my podcast that are no girls on the internet. Hell yeah. It's a banger podcast can certify. Oh, my God. That means so much coming from y'all. That's going to do it for us for this week.

But we will be back next week with more stuff. I don't know what it is yet, but it'll be more of it. And it'll happen. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.

Hi, this is Kylie Breakman, Angela Geratana. Jeremy Colhane, Patrick McDonald. And we're the hosts of the Artisan, Artisan, and we're the hosts of the Art of Artists on Artists on Artists on Artists Podcast. The Improvised Character Comedy Podcast where each week a new panel of artists discuss their craft. Join us for a panel of Eurovision participants.

And we do a little Halloween sometimes. Does the Pope dress up? He winks on Halloween. He gets right up next to the microphone. I hear you can almost hear the eyelashes hit each other. You never seen Italy so quiet as when the Pope gets up to wink on Halloween. Listen to Artists on Artists on Artists,

every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I survived nine months in captivity, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to the Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Didn't catch the latest Roland Martin unfiltered podcast? Here's what you missed. There should not be a single law enforcement agency. It does not have body cameras. It's real. Black farmers have been under attack.

This is just the latest example of them just slapping DEI on anything. It's raw. And I'm sitting here going, they are playing y'all for fools. Catch Roland Martin's daily commentary on the Black Information Network. And download Roland Martin unfiltered on the IHart radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Bobby Bones. Join me and former NFL quarterback Matt Castle every Wednesday on our podcast.

Lots to say with me Bobby Bones and Matt Castle. You're in training camp and the rookie quarterback has one good throwing session in front of the media. Suddenly, everybody online says he should start over you week one. How do you handle this? You just go back out to practice the next day. I wait for them to mess up. Listen to lots to say with Bobby Bones and Matt Castle on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.