It Could Happen Here - CZM Book Club: The Abbot of Druimenach

Episode Date: May 25, 2025

Margaret reads you an Irish fairy tale about gender transformation that she really likes. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Hi, I'm Sam Mullins, and I've got a new podcast coming out called Go Boy, the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable. Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted. He spent 24 of those years in jail. But when Roger Caron picked up a pen and paper, he went from an ex-con to a literary darling. From Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts, listen to Go Boy on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You feeling this too is a horror anthology

podcast. It brings different creators to tell 10 vile, grotesque, horrific stories on what scares them the most. You're feeling this too. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I always had to be so good no one could ignore me. iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I always had to be so good. No one could ignore me, carve my path with data and drive. But some people only see who I am on paper. The paper ceiling, the limitations from degree screens to stereotypes that are

holding back over 70 million stars. Workers skilled through alternative routes rather than a bachelor's degree. It's time for skills to speak for themselves. Find resources for breaking through barriers at tearthepapersceiling.org brought to you by Opportunity at Work and the Ad Council. is my new project, reporting on countercultures on the fringes of society all across the world. Live from the underground, you'll discover no rules fighting, Japanese street racing, resilient favela life and much more. All real, completely uncensored. Listen to the Away Days podcast, reporting from the underbelly, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Cool Zone Media Book club, book club, book club, book club. Hello and welcome to the Cool Zone Media Book Club, the only book club where you don't have to do the reading because I do it for you. My name is Margaret Killjoy and I'm the host of the show, which makes sense because I'm the one talking to you. And okay, you might remember last week when I read you a story, a Norse fairy tale, and I was like, you know, I know I'm out on a limb here. This feels a little trans to me.

And I really was out on a limb there, but I'm pretty comfortable out on limbs. I clamber around a lot. But a friend of mine sent me another fairy tale. This one from Ireland. And I don't think I have to go out on a limb here when I say that this story is a trans allegory. It might not even be an allegory. It's just kind of a trans fairy tale. Because this story is the story of the Abbot of Dromich who is changed into a woman. And this story has been written down a lot in different medieval manuscripts in Irish.

There's a couple other versions of it. There's like a whole lot of different written down versions including some I believe in Scotland. But Ireland and Scotland are the only places in the West where this particular style of fairy tale seems to exist. And I think that's cool. This particular version was translated by Barbara Hillers. It's pretty short so I'll probably end up talking about it a bunch. It's called the story of the abbbot of Dromach, who is changed into a woman. A certain young man who held the abbessy of Dromach endeavored to make a great and fine banquet in observation of Easter.

After preparing the banquet, the young man goes out of the house and sits on a big pleasant hill that was above the settlement. And it is thus the young man was, a very comely linen hood around his head, and a tunic of royal silk, closely fitted to his white skin, and an excellent, very beautiful rope on top of that, and a cloak of dark brown scarlet flowing around him, and a gold-hilted sword fit for assembly in his hand. And when he had reached the top, he put his elbow to the ground and slept.

And after he woke up from his sleep, when he wanted to take his sword, he found only a woman's weapon in its place, i.e. a dystaph. And this is how he was, the skirt of a woman's tunic on him down to the ground, and on his head there was a woman's hairdo, long golden, very beautiful hair falling in fine curls from the top of his head. And when he passed his hand over his face, he did not find any hair of a beard or mustache there. And he put his hand between his thighs, and he found the sign of womanhood there. Nevertheless, the young man did not believe those various signs, for he thought it was shapeshifting and magic which had been played on him. Then, a certain big woman comes past him and she was very ugly brown and exceedingly hideous.

I want to point out here that I am under the impression that brown is around like coloration of hair and stuff like that, although I certainly wouldn't put it past medieval Ireland to just be being blatantly racist here. But I believe it's instead, deathness. It's still still obviously like he's so beautiful, he's so white, and he has blonde hair, and then you know it's comparing to this other thing. It's still not like good, but I'm under the impression that is what that particular part means. A certain big woman comes past him and she was very ugly, brown and exceedingly hideous, an apparition with gray bristles and deep-set eyes.

And this is what she said, Why are you here, smooth young blonde girl, alone on this hillock, at the end of the day and the very beginning of night? And he was gloomy and tearful and sad at this news, and he said after that, I do not know where I will go or what I will do hence, because if I go to my house, my people would not recognize me. And if I should leave, I am in danger as a single woman going about on her own. Therefore then this is best for me, to go through the world until God may pass judgment

on me. For it is He who has distorted my shape and my form and put me in disfigurement and repulsiveness. But still, although God has given me this change of appearance, I swear in the presence of the Creator that I have not hung a person or wronged anyone, that I have not committed an outrage against Bell or Relic or Staff, nor persecuted a church, nor spoken evil against anyone, nor has a guest ever gone dissatisfied from my dwelling and my house." He descended then from the Knoll and from the pleasant, beautifully sloping hill, and

he raised a sore lament and a heavy, sorrowful cry. And this is what he said going down the hill. Pity, he said, that the ground of the hill does not swallow me up at this very moment, because I do not know whither I will go or what I will do." She went off after that, down across the slope of the hill, until she reached the green of Kromglen, a church that was to the west of Dromag. After that, she meets a certain tall, soldierly young man on the village green, and the young man felt eager, excessive love for her,

and began to entreat her, and did not leave off until he had union and intercourse with her. And after they had slept together, the young man asked the girl from the place she came and who she was. And the girl told him, why, I'm here selling goods and services. That's not what she said, but that's what I'm going to say because here's a bunch of ads. Unless you have CoolerZone Media, in which case you can skip these ads. Well, actually you can skip them anyway, but they're automatically skipped for you if you have CoolerZone Media.

Anyway, here they are. I know a lot of cops, and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. Across the country, cops called this Taser the revolution. But not everyone was convinced it was that simple. Cops believed everything that Taser told them. From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened

when a multibillion-dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute Season 1, Taser Inc. I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really, really bad. Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season 1, Taser Inc. on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes one, two, and three on May 21st, and episodes four, five, and six on June 4th. Ad free at Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. On November 5th, 2018, at 6.33 a.m.,

a red Volkswagen Golf was found abandoned in a ditch out in Sleephole Valley. The driver's seat door was open. No traces of footsteps leaving the vehicle. No belongings were found. Except for a cassette tape lodged in the player. On that tape were 10 vile, grotesque, horrific stories that to this day have been kept restricted from the public until now.

have been kept restricted from the public until now. Hi! Don't forget me. You feelin' this too? A horror anthology podcast. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 1978, Roger Caron's first book was published, and he was unlike any first-time author Canada had ever seen. Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted. He spent 24 of those years in jail. 12 years in solitary. He went from an ex-con to a literary darling almost overnight. He was instantly a celebrity. He was an adrenaline junkie

and he was the star of the show. Go-Boy is the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable. I had a knife go in my stomach, puncture my screen, break my ribs, I had my effects all on my hands. Only to find himself back where he started. Rod, you're saying this, I've never hurt anybody but myself. And I said, oh, journalist and documentary filmmaker. Awadeyes is my new project, reporting on countercultures on the fringes of society all across the world. Live from the underground, you'll discover no rules fighting, Japanese street racing, Brazilian favela life and much more.

All real, completely uncensored. This is Unique Access with access with straightforward underground reporting. We're taking you deep into the dirt without the usual airs and graces of legacy media. A way that showcases what the mainstream cannot access. Real underground reporting with real people, no excuses. For the past decade I've been going to places I shouldn't be meeting people I shouldn't know. Now you can come along too.

Listen to the your way days podcast, reporting from the underbelly on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. And after they had slept together, the young man asked the girl from what place she came and who she was. The girl told him that he would not get that knowledge from her, whether they would be together for long or short.

I, however, he said, will tell you my name, for I am Ernek of this church." And then Ernek is, I had to look this up. Also, I couldn't find a lot of the pronunciations for a lot of the Irish, and I'm very sorry, but medieval Irish is hard for me to find pronunciations of. And Ernek is the person who kind of like handles a lot of the day-to-day stuff at a medieval Irish monastery. It's a role that went away I think in like the 1500s or something because this story is old as shit which is cool as hell. Anyway, I will tell you my name for I am Ernek of this church which is called Cromglen and my wife died two years, and you will be my harmonious and well-matched

wife." And they went together then to the Ernak's house, and the people of the house bade her a friendly and courteous welcome. And she was with him for seven years as his wife and his spouse, and seven children she bore him during that time. After that a messenger comes to the Ehrenach from the congregation and assembly of Drumech to invite him for Easter. And she goes together with the Ehrenach to the hill on which her shape was first transformed. And she falls immediately asleep on the hill.

And the Ehrenach goes with his people to the church. And after the girl woke up from her sleep, it was thus she was, a man, with the same appearance she had in the first place. And she found her gold-hilted, ornamented sword on her knee, and this is what she said, O powerful God, the lamenting in which I am is great." And after a great lamentation, he went to his original home and his wife says to him then, "'It's long that you are absent from home.'"

Then, the drinking hall had been arranged and that strange story was told to the people of the house. However, that story was not believed by them, for his wife said that he had not been absent for more than an hour of that day. Finally, after giving them many various proofs, his case is presented and a judgment made between him and the airneck of Crohn Glen. And this is the judgment that was made between them, to divide the children in half, giving the extra son to the airneck for fosterage.

And this is how they parted from each other. Et cetera. You know a story is good when it ends with et cetera. Okay, I always say I like that story so much. I like that story so much. And one of the reasons is that it doesn't sound like a fairy tale. Like there's some stuff, right? It's like, oh, I'm on a hillock and, you know, this thing happened and time passed differently. Right?

There's this whole thing, you know, with fairy where if you go to fairy, time passes very differently and you'll spend years there and when you leave it's only been a day or vice versa. You spend a day there and you come out and it's been years. And I've always liked that because I think time dilation is a really interesting part of life. And it's especially a part of drug use, but it's also a part of just like general living in very different ways.

Like when I traveled full time, you know, only a summer had passed. The first summer I was traveling, only a summer had passed, and it felt like an entire lifetime. I felt like half of my life had been led before that, and the other half had been lived during those like three or four months. And so I was like that thing about fairy. But overall, this isn't a very fairy tale feeling story. It doesn't have a lot of the sort of repetition and kind of a lot of the things you expect out of certain types of oral tradition. But this story is absolutely part of the oral tradition as well. There's actually a lot of like, this particular translation was written as part of an academic

piece by Barbara Hillers called The Abbot of Dromaic Gender Bending and the Gaelic Tradition. And it's specifically around whether or not medieval Irish literature is rooted in the oral tradition or not. Because people were like, nah, there's no way that all of the stuff in the medieval manuscripts is actually what people were saying around that time. But there actually seems to be a lot of evidence that this particular story does come close to what people were saying around the time. And I find that fascinating. But you know what I find even more fascinating the fact that goods and services are available for purchase by you through our advertisers I find that endlessly fascinating you can tell by the tone of my voice how enthused I am about all of this.

I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. Across the country, cops call this Taser the revolution. But not everyone was convinced it was that simple. Cops believed everything that Taser told them. From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened

when a multi-billion dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute Season One, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really, really bad. Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season One, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes one, two, and three on May 21st, and episodes four, five, and 6 on June 4th.

Add free at Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. On November 5th, 2018, at 6.33 a.m., a red Volkswagen Golf was found abandoned in a ditch out in Sleephole Valley. The driver's seat door was open. No traces of footsteps leaving the vehicle. No belongings were found. Except for a cassette tape lodged in the player. On that tape were ten...

Vile... No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no were 10 vile grotesque horrific stories that to this day have been kept restricted from the public until now you feeling this too. A horror anthology podcast. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 1978, Roger Caron's first book was published, and he was unlike any first time author Canada had ever seen. Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted. Has spent 24 of those years in jail.

12 years in solitary. He went from an ex-con to a literary darling almost overnight. He was instantly a celebrity. He was an adrenaline junkie and he was the star of the show. Go Boy is the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable. I had a knife go in my stomach, puncture my skin, break my ribs, I had my guts all in my hands.

Only to find himself back where he started. Rodger's saying this, I've never hurt anybody but myself. And I said, oh, you're so wrong. You're so wrong on that one, Rodger. I'm Jake Hanrahan, journalist and documentary filmmaker. Away Days is my new project, reporting on countercultures on the fringes of society all across the world. Life from the underground, you'll discover no rules fighting, Japanese street racing, resilient favela life and much more. All real, completely uncensored. This is unique access with straightforward on the ground reporting, we're taking you

deep into the dirt without the usual airs and graces of legacy media away day showcases what the mainstream cannot access Real underground reporting with real people no excuses for the past decade I've been going to places. I shouldn't be meeting people. I shouldn't know now you can come along to Listen to the Your Way Days podcast reporting from the underbelly on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Okay, more things that are interesting about this.

When I did episodes about medieval Ireland on my podcast, Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff, and if you're listening to this on it, it could happen here, why aren't you also listening to Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff where I talk about history? When I did episodes around medieval Irish history, especially around Grace O'Malley, the pirate queen of Ireland, one of the things that came up is that we have these assumptions about medieval Ireland, that it was this very Catholic place, right? After the Irish Revolution of 1921, unfortunately, despite that being a pretty cool and lefty revolution, the Catholic Church kind of stepped in in a sort of theocratic mode and pushed Ireland

towards a certain cultural conservatism. But that's not actually Ireland's heritage, even as a Catholic country. For example, in medieval Ireland, women were getting divorced and like initiating divorce. And that's not supposed to be the case if you're like super Catholic, but it was just normal. And it's worth pointing out here that the abbot here is fucking married. Like in this case, that bitch gets married twice.

She's married as a man and then she's married as a woman. You know, and it's like kind of chill. They just gotta split the kids in the end. And okay, but another thing, isn't that weird that, you know, it doesn't work out for, it doesn't work out like time-wise, right? Like, oh, you were only gone an hour. But like, the air neck is like,

what are you talking about? I was married to this lady, here are my seven children with her, you know? But also like, no one's like mad. He's not like, what? You were a man all along. He's just kind of like sad. He doesn't get to be married to her anymore.

And so, gender bending in this context is presented as a curse at first, right? And it uses he pronouns for the protagonist until she starts accepting what's happened. You know, he wakes up and curses God and then it uses the trope of like an ugly woman as like a sign that magic has happened. Which I'm totally down with. I know there's a lot of shit that's like rooted in misogyny that sometimes I'm like, whatever we can own that shit, like, you know, we can be like spooky signs of magic, that's fine. But, you know, as soon as she is used to the idea of being a woman, suddenly she's she in the story and she's used to it.

And then she feels just as much cursed when she is transformed back into a man. And I mean, I think what happened, I'm willing to bet what happened is this story is about like an abbot, like the real thing that happened. I bet an abbot like was like, oh, I'm wearing my prettiest clothes. I'm gonna go take a nap in the sun. And then like had like a daydream or a normal nap dream where she woke up a woman and was like,

this fucking rules. I'm gonna go around and sleep with people as a girl. I'm gonna have babies and shit. And then like woke up and was like, it was all a dream and was kind of bummed and then told everyone the story. And then it slowly became myth. That's what I bet happened because trans women

have been part of society forever. But what's interesting is that so much folklore across Western Europe and I think actually extending into Eastern Europe, but I'm not as certain about that, there's just certain tropes that are repeated over and over and over again. But there's only a couple stories, and I believe they are only found,

according at least to some of the stuff that I read, they're only found in Ireland and Scotland about a man being turned into a woman. And the other place that you find this apparently, and I haven't read these stories yet, but I want to go find them soon. The other place where you find this style of folktale is India. And okay, this is now I'm back on a limb. I'm completely on a limb here. I am probably wrong about this. But one of the things that this reminds me of is something that came up. I did episodes about hunger strikes a long time ago and how the tradition of hunger strikes as a sort of legal idea,

as a way to get recourse from someone who is, you know, like a rich person who owes you money, for example, is that you go to their door and you starve yourself. And this is found in two cultures. It is found in Irish traditional law and it is found in parts of northern India. And the argument that I ran across for that is the same reason that you have some language similarity between Irish and I don't remember what language I don't have notes in front of me I'm totally doing this from memory and some language in India is that the culture that both of

those come from the language group of Indo-European, comes from this proto-Indo-European language and culture, which started in the kind of middle of Eurasia and then it made its way west and east. And stuff often lasts the longest at the fringes of culture. So if you have like a culture, an empire, and it extends out super wide, well, then the next thing that comes along is also gonna extend out and extend out or whatever. But the very fringes sometimes hold on to the stuff from the earlier culture. And so this is theoretically why there's hunger strikes in both of those places. That's sort of a legal idea, is that they come from this same source.

And it's cool, cuz it means that these places that are thousands and thousands of miles apart and are like on different continents are coming from the same place. And as a side note about multiple continents, whenever people are like, oh, I just don't understand the idea of social constructs, how can gender be a social construct? They probably believe that Europe and Asia are two different continents. And the reason that Europe and Asia are two different continents. And the reason that Europe and Asia are two different continents is the social construction.

And they are different continents. Geographically, they are not separate continents, but culturally they are. So I could not actually tell you I am completely on a limb is the conjecture that I'm probably wrong about. That the fact that you're gonna find this folklore around men becoming women in Ireland and India is from the same idea of it coming from a proto culture. That's probably not the case. But it's neat to think about.

And I like thinking about neat stuff. And it's also a curse, right? This is a very important part that this is like a curse. Whereas you do find folklore and cultural stuff happening a little bit more the other way around where people are talking about girls becoming boys in folklore. And that almost always is actually very specifically as babies and it's because like, oh, we kind of like need a man. We need to have a man show up.

And so we're going to, you know, decide that this girl is going to have the social roles of masculinity. Thousands of years and thousands of miles of culture is too large of a place to make generalizations about the mutability of masculinity. Thousands of years and thousands of miles of culture is too large of a place to make generalizations about the mutability of gender. But gender has been mutable in different ways and different directions across the world in different ways.

And I don't know. So hopefully I'll slowly learn more about gender bending in history and specifically folklore. But for now, this is what I've got. If you knew how to pronounce those words properly, I am sorry, but I could not find pronunciations online because they are medieval Irish. I'll talk to you next week when I'll have more stories because that's what this is, a storytelling podcast. It's Cool Zone Media Book Club. And I'll talk to you next week when I'll have more stories. Because that's what this is, a storytelling podcast. It's Cool Zone Media Book Club.

Talk to you soon. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources where it could happen here, updated monthly, at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. Hi, I'm Sam Mullins, and I've got a new podcast coming out called Go Boy, the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable. Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted. Has spent 24 of those years in jail.

But when Roger Caron picked up a pen and paper, he went from an ex-con to a literary darling. From Campside Media and iHeart podcasts, listen to Go Boy on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You Feeling This Too is a horror anthology podcast. or wherever you get your podcasts. I always had to be so good no one could ignore me. Carve my path with data and drive. But some people only see who I am on paper.

The paper ceiling. The limitations from degree screens to stereotypes that are holding back over 70 million stars. Workers skilled through alternative routes rather than a bachelor's degree. It's time for skills to speak for themselves. Find resources for breaking through barriers at tearthepapersealing.org brought to you by Opportunity at Work and the Ad Council. I'm Jake Hanrahan, journalist and documentary filmmaker. Away Days is my new project, reporting on countercultures on the fringes of society all across the world.

Live from the underground, you'll discover no rules fighting, Japanese street racing, resilient favela life and much more. All real, completely uncensored. Listen to the Await days podcast, reporting from the underbelly on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.