It Could Happen Here - CZM Book Club: "The Fortunate Death of Jonathan Sandelson" by Margaret Killjoy, Part Two

Episode Date: May 5, 2024

In part two, Margaret reads Danl a story about hackers using drones to disrupt for-profit incarceration.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information....

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Starting point is 00:00:00 Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso as they explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals.
Starting point is 00:00:22 You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into tech's elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech brought to you by an industry veteran with nothing to lose.
Starting point is 00:00:53 Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts from. The 2025 iHeart Podcast Awards are coming. This is the chance to nominate your podcast for the industry's biggest award. Submit your podcast for nomination now at iHeart.com slash podcast awards. But hurry, submissions close on December 8th. Hey, you've been doing all that talking. It's time to get rewarded for it. Submit your podcast today at iHeart.com slash podcast awards.
Starting point is 00:01:26 That's iHeart.com slash podcast awards. Cool Zone Media. Book Club. Book Club. Book Club. Book Club. It's the Cool Zone Media Book Club. And that means it's your weekly dose of fiction and i'm your host margaret killjoy and my guest today is daniel hi daniel hi margaret i'm back and i'm happy to be
Starting point is 00:01:55 here yeah this is part two of a two-parter called the fortunate death of jonathan sandelson it won't make any sense if you start now it really won't yeah good luck to you i challenge you to listen out of order or listen in order do whatever you want we're gonna start the story now it's by me margaret killjoy it's called the fortunate death of jonathan sandelson it came out in 2018 probably wrote it in 2017 and i said it in the year 2024 the far and distant future and i have learned my lesson i am not putting dates in my dang sci-fi stories anymore still reasonable just by the way i'm just gonna throw that out there yeah reasonable yeah completely yeah where we
Starting point is 00:02:36 last left our hero she had let's see been trolling a man and then another guy killed him all using AI-controlled drones, and she recently came up with a plan about how to solve this by talking to the man who had killed the other guy. Anyway, here we go. Flashing lights lit up my old street, and about a dozen cruisers spilled out over the curb onto our lawn and that of both of our neighbors. Cops in SWAT gear carried out box after box
Starting point is 00:03:07 and conspicuously all the houseplants. They always raid at like 4 a.m. when everyone is home and asleep and all primed to get PTSD. Marcel still somehow managed to look cool, even though he was handcuffed to the front porch in his underwear. One leg was even cocked out in front of him.
Starting point is 00:03:25 The other knee was bent. He looked up at the sky like he was stargazing, like there were stars in the city. Even with all his nonchalance, though, I could see him shaking a little. I joined the crowd of curious neighbors. They weren't monsters, so they didn't bother pointing out to any cops that,
Starting point is 00:03:42 hey, this girl lives there, too. I'd missed the worst of the raid, and half an hour later, a plainclothes cop uncuffed Marcel, tried and failed to shake his hand, tried and failed to hand him a receipt. The officer dropped it at his feet and left. Cop lights receded into the distance. The crowd faded, and I walked up to my old house. Fucking pigs, Marcel said. He paced the walkway to the street and back. You all right, I asked. Do they not know what plant drugs fucking come from? We had jade plant, spider plant, pitcher plant. All the damn plants we had in our house are so generic,
Starting point is 00:04:18 they literally had the word plant in their name and those assholes still confiscate them. They find anything? Hell no, they didn't find anything. There's nothing in our house to find. He looked up, and a sudden, wicked smile cut across his face. Maybe he winked. Maybe his eye twitched. Anyone else home, I asked? Nah, for some reason no one else came home tonight. Another eye twitch. Are you mad? At who? At me. Fuck no, Jay. The hierarchy of my anger is that I am most mad at me. Next, I'm mad at the cops. Next, I'm mad at, I don't know, capitalism. And after that, I'm mad at people who don't use their turn signals. Then like at the bottom of the Marcel anger hierarchy is probably people who pronounce espresso correctly, but put the emphasis on the S to make it big deal about how cultured they are. You're not even on
Starting point is 00:05:10 the list. Can I make you some coffee? I asked. They took the coffee maker. What did they think it was drug paraphernalia? I asked. I mean, I guess in that case, it's technically true. Why are you mad at yourself? Because I got scared, and 10 times out of 10, the decisions I make when I'm scared aren't the right decisions. You do good work. I believe in the work you do. Besides, it was too late to pull out anyway, and for a penny and all that. Good, I said, because I need your help. I typed something out on my phone, too paranoid to say it aloud he looked at my phone looked at me and started laughing god damn we are so fucked
Starting point is 00:05:52 we spent the next 30 minutes scouring the neighborhood for the cat McGonagall had gotten out during the raid oh that's funny that was before no one in this story would have used a jk rowling reference for that cat maybe this cat's like 15 years old you know totally yeah in 2017 margaret is totally safe yeah marcel's canceled having this cat we found her under a broken down rv three blocks away when marcel got her into his arms, his veneer of cool collapsed completely, and he just smiled and cried. Jay, this conversation is secure? Dale Carter, yes. Jay, you're allowed to lie to me though, but it's illegal for me to lie to you? Dale Carter, it is illegal for you to lie to me, yes. I sat on my sleeping couch in the ransacked
Starting point is 00:06:44 living room with Marcel sitting next to me, looking. I sat on my sleeping couch in the ransacked living room with Marcel sitting next to me, looking over my shoulder as I texted with the fed who'd harassed me. We were certain the room was bugged, so we were quiet. Jay,
Starting point is 00:06:54 I'm just concerned what'll happen to me, you know, if this gets out, that I talk to you. Dale Carter, your cooperation can be confidential and it's possible that, depending on the quality
Starting point is 00:07:04 of the information you provide, we can get you into protective custody. J I know who box-killed Jonathan Sandelson. Dale Carter We already have a substantial case built. Your testimony would be remarkably useful if the case goes to trial. J I need immunity either way, but I'd much rather provide information than testify, for safety's sake. Dale Carter, are you that afraid of Marcel?
Starting point is 00:07:30 Next to me, Marcel put his hand over his mouth, stifling laughter. All this time, I'd assumed the he the feds had talked about was a ruse to get me to let down my guard. Turns out, they really were that stupid. Jay, Marcel is innocent. Dale Carter. That is unlikely. J. Give me immunity from prosecution for anything related to Sandelson. I can give you screen caps and docs, everything you need to prosecute the docs killer. I'm scared. I just want to leave all this behind me. Dale Carter. Done. Marcel and I met eyes. Neither of us believed the agent.
Starting point is 00:08:10 I wasn't even sure he had the power to grant me immunity. I was pretty sure that was a judge's job. It didn't matter. J. Your man is Nicholas Sanchez. See the attached file. He's also responsible for 14 other deaths. I hacked him after the attack.
Starting point is 00:08:27 These are the contents of his phone, laptop, and three different cloud accounts. Dale Carter, I will review these documents and get back to you. And Jay? Jay? Question mark. Dale Carter, it's complicated to say thank you in a case like this. Thank you. It's probably for the best if you stay inside until we have someone in custody.
Starting point is 00:08:49 It's probably for the best if you avoid Marcel. It's also probably for the best that you stay somewhere we can reach you. That was a threat. He knew it. I knew it. He knew that I knew it. Whatever. My docs, courtesy of Nicholas, should clear Marcel no problem. I wasn't holding my breath for immunity from a box-trolling prosecution, but still, I was in a lot better of a situation, assuming we didn't get caught for what we were planning next. Marcel started tapping on his phone, so I looked down at mine. Maximus, if they're on my tick, we're gonna have to be twice as careful. You have boxes we can use? Noobgirl01. There is no facepalm emoji big enough to answer that what else you can use when you're committing incredibly high level crimes is the services and goods provided by all of our sponsors we are sponsored by big crime right yeah big crime is a key sponsor
Starting point is 00:09:42 they're emailing us a lot lately saying we need to sponsor you but also don't say anything don't leave town don't leave town yeah stay where we can reach you said big crime and here's their ads hi i'm ed zitron host of the better offline podcast and we're kicking off our second season digging into how tex elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, better offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel winning economists to leading journalists in the field. And I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong,
Starting point is 00:10:30 though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough, so join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba.
Starting point is 00:11:06 He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian.
Starting point is 00:11:16 Elian. Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzales wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation.
Starting point is 00:11:40 Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story as part of the My Cultura podcast network available on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Parente. And I'm Jimei Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, the early career podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. One of the most exciting things about having your first real job is that first real paycheck. You're probably thinking, yay, I can finally buy a new phone.
Starting point is 00:12:17 But you also have a lot of questions like, how should I be investing this money? I mean, how much do I save? And what about my 401k? Well, we're talking with finance expert Vivian Tu, aka Your Rich BFF, to break it all down. I always get roasted on the internet when I say this out loud, but I'm like, every single year, you need to be asking for a raise of somewhere between 10 to 15%. I'm not saying you're gonna get 15% every single year,
Starting point is 00:12:41 but if you ask for 10 to 15 and you end up getting eight, that is actually a true raise. Listen to this week's episode of Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. The feds would be on the lookout for any box that flew, anything loud, anything that drew attention to itself in any way, which was fine. Only 24 hours before, I'd been on this couch,
Starting point is 00:13:19 watching through the camera of a box on a nice widescreen TV. Now, same couch, but I hadn't slept a wink, I'd barely eaten, the feds had stolen the TV, and I was inside a network of smart mailboxes in La Jolla. Mailboxes don't have cameras, federal regulation in response to that widespread hack in 2021. They just have sensors. Fuck tons of sensors. Humidity sensors, weight sensors, radar, GPS, even a damn accelerometer so it can modulate its padding on the off chance that some
Starting point is 00:13:46 teenager with a baseball bat decides to take a swing at it while you've got something valuable inside. A million sensors, but terrible security still. My part of the job was simple. I had to buy time. Marcel's part was more complicated. Nicholas's part, well, that was the part that was actually dangerous. Cops on AI assist drive, drive was the part that was actually dangerous. Cops on AI-assist drive, drive predictably en route to a crime. One patrol car goes fast in the front, blasting the override that gets all the self-driving cars out of its way. It doesn't usually go straight to the crime, because us criminals can read the signal clear as day and GTFO is needed.
Starting point is 00:14:22 So the cop car only clears the way in broad strokes. Cops on silent come in behind and jostle through traffic. They speed like fuck through straightaways, but they cut their speed faster when there's other traffic around than a regular speed freak would. A decent AI can track their destination no problem. So yeah, tap into the mailboxes, and you know where the cops are going.
Starting point is 00:14:44 I set my phone on alert and leaned back against Marcel and waited. And fell asleep. In my dreams, I was Sandelson, and I was running from myself, terrified of every box and car and machine. I ran for the country, but even the trees were boxes, and they were watching. Go to work, go to work, go to work. My phone was saying that shit over and over again. It's a terrible alarm. That day at least it wasn't true, but I sure wasn't going to program my phone to say time to crime, time to crime, time to crime. A lot of people were going to live free because Sandelson was dead. My dream hadn't been my moral compass trying to exert
Starting point is 00:15:24 itself. It had been my brain processing anxieties. Helping Nicholas meant helping myself, meant helping Marcel, meant helping thousands of people I'd never even meet. I needed to believe that, and not just so that I could sleep at night. I needed to believe that I was doing the right thing, because I was. I promise. I hope. A thousand miles away, Nicholas must have started his car because my tablet and Marcel's came alive with his dash cam view. We both put on headphones and turned on black metal, the closest music to white noise, let's be honest. Real loud in the house to cover anything we might hear through our headphones. Rock and roll, Nicholas said. His voice had a whistle in it. rock and roll nicholas said his voice had a whistle in it there was that shivering again running down my spine if this went right if this went wrong you know jay nicholas said i've been
Starting point is 00:16:13 thinking about what you said about killing you've got a point but pacifism means standing in the safe shade cast by the violent i couldn't respond of course not without being overheard. I don't know what I would have said if I could. I tapped into a public traffic feed nearby, got myself a bird's eye view, then pressed go on the program I'd written before my nap. A few mailboxes in upper-class neighborhoods started reporting theft or tampering. That was good, but not enough. All the cops who were about to be headed for Nicholas, they wouldn't get an override for something like mail theft.
Starting point is 00:16:48 Marcel had Nicholas's car and manual override because it was almost impossible to program enough imperfection into a driving program to fool an AI. We wanted anyone watching to assume Nicholas himself was driving. A car driven by its occupant is a lot easier to trap into a corner. It's always better to be underestimated. I set off the mailboxes. All of the mailboxes. I was in 70% of the residential mailboxes in San Diego, and they were all screaming malfunction. To the human eye, they all went off at once.
Starting point is 00:17:20 To a computer, though, there was a pattern, a route. The USPS repair boxes would head out and follow that route. On Marcel's screen, Nicholas saw the first repair box, the size of a UPS truck capable of collecting hundreds of mailboxes and running moderately advanced repair on its own. And Marcel swerved around it. At the next intersection, two more trucks flanked him. I couldn't own the repair boxes, not without more work anyway, but I could control the information that controlled the AI
Starting point is 00:17:50 that controlled them. Nicholas had an open lane out to the cliffs and the sea. There was a boat waiting for him, one I'd owned a few hours earlier. He'd never reach it. It was just there to make it look like he was trying to escape. It didn't take long for the police AI, or maybe even a human, to see what was happening and divert resources to block his route to the ocean. Perfect. A cop car got in front of him way too soon. He must have been under full manual control. That wasn't good.
Starting point is 00:18:19 On the dash cam, Nicholas got the entire upper half of his body out the driver's window, opened fire with a handgun. The patrol car was too smart. Ballistic probability sensors kept its tires and glass out of harm's way by subtle shifts of steering, micro evasion, the kind of shit computers can do better than people. The cop car could have killed him. Man versus machine isn't a contest anymore. The fact that an onboard rifle didn't end Nicholas' life then and there was testament to how much the police wanted to bring him in alive. A little help here, Nicholas said. The cars were moving at 60 miles an hour through the streets designed for half that.
Starting point is 00:18:59 If I crashed the patrol car, its driver might die. I don't like cops. I've never liked cops. Not because of who they are as people, but because of the role they've chosen in our society. The gulf between not liking someone and being willing to get them killed is pretty massive. The cruiser slowed down and started weaving. On the couch next to me, Marcel was sweating as he tried and failed to outmaneuver the cop. I'm fucked, Nicholas said. Fucked. If they caught him, he'd spend the rest. I'm fucked, Nicholas said. Fucked.
Starting point is 00:19:25 If they caught him, he'd spend the rest of his life in prison. Marcel would be next. Then me. Fuck that cop. I took control of the car away from Marcel to give it to an AI for about 10 seconds. Cop AI don't have shit on mine. Our car dropped speed,
Starting point is 00:19:41 like it was planning a U-turn. The cop reacted predictably. Two more feints, and the cruiser showed its flank. My AI gunned the engine, ever so slightly tapped the trunk of the cop car, sent the whole car spinning off the road into a ditch. Cop cars were safe enough to handle a crash like that. I was sure of that.
Starting point is 00:19:59 I had to be sure. Rock and fucking roll! There was that whistle in his voice again. After that, it went smooth. Nicholas went under an underpass and dove out the door with a racer's airbag vest. Marcel drove the car on without its passenger. I blanked out a few cameras along Nicholas's walking route. My work was done, and I sort of checked out. My body stopped really responding, and I looked out of my own eyes like I was looking out of the cameras of a box. Still, I watched traffic cams. The empty car raced through the city with a literal sack of meat in the driver's seat. Every time it approached a
Starting point is 00:20:38 police barricade, it turned. Eventually, it was trapped. Conveniently, and by conveniently I mean by design, it rammed a barricade near the cliffs of La Jolla and plummeted. Then it exploded. Like, really fucking exploded. Like, strapped with military-grade shit exploded. Nassaramus Mill. Well, that's the end of me. Now that I'd heard his voice, it was easy to imagine it speaking the words that appeared on my screen. It was easy to imagine his words with that whistle in his voice, it was easy to imagine it speaking the words that appeared on my screen. It was easy to imagine his words with that whistle in his voice, caused by the teeth he'd pulled out of his mouth and left in the car. Noob Girl 01 They'll figure it out eventually.
Starting point is 00:21:15 Nassaramus Mill Maybe. If they've got half a brain, they know I'm done box killing. Looks better for them if they let me stay dead. Noob Girl 01 where will you go? Nassaramus Mill, the less I tell you, the less you'll perjure yourself. Noobgirl01, it was a pleasure working with you, Nassaramus. Nassaramus Mill, same to you. McGonagall's kind of a shitty cat. I know I'm not supposed to say things like that, but she was always walking across my tablet or licking my face without asking,
Starting point is 00:21:49 and the worst part was, I didn't have a bedroom door to shut her out with. The couch was shitty too. The cushions were too lumpy for good sitting and too soft for good sleeping, and cheap foam poked out from more than a few tears in the cheap fabric. The house was still a wreck from the raid. It wasn't the same without the plants, and half the roommates had lost their jobs over fears of subsequent police investigation.
Starting point is 00:22:12 Word of my cooperation with the feds reached boxer circles, and Hey Hey Cameron was persona non grata. No one would ever trust that handle again. Which was fair. I wouldn't trust me either, not after Mr. Fed had come through with immunity on my behalf. It was only use immunity, which is garbage. Basically, the feds weren't allowed to use my own logs and footage and testimony against me.
Starting point is 00:22:33 They weren't pressing box-trolling charges. But there wasn't a statute of limitations either. Which meant I had to keep my head down, or I'd be right on my way to prison. Marcel's cred went through the roof though after the raid. He got a promotion at work. He was suddenly a high profile hacker and innocent to boot.
Starting point is 00:22:50 He hired me to work under him. He was a shitty boss. Having a desk job is shitty too. I miss my guac bots, but I needed money, real money, if I was going to get myself over to Iceland. There were only a couple hours left until dawn and I hadn't slept. My new AI was just learning its first words. Noobgirl01, what is your directive?
Starting point is 00:23:13 Maganobot. To render ice incapable of performing its duties. To perform this task without oversight in order to grant you plausible deniability. To perform this task without causing harm to any human or non-human animals. Sitting on that shitty couch with that shitty cat licking my neck, a shitty workday waiting ahead of me, another dangerous venture about to begin, I was as happy as I'd ever been. I was likely as happy as I'd ever be.
Starting point is 00:23:39 The end. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, The end. the destruction of Google search, better offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel winning economists to leading journalists in the field. And I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts.
Starting point is 00:24:41 Check out betteroffline.com. Wherever else you get your podcasts, check out betteroffline.com. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian. El will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian.
Starting point is 00:25:06 Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom.
Starting point is 00:25:27 At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRad Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Parenti. And I'm Jimei Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, the early career podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. One of the most exciting things about having your first real job is that first real paycheck. You're probably thinking, yay, I can finally buy a new phone. But you also have a lot of questions like,
Starting point is 00:26:10 how should I be investing this money? I mean, how much do I save? And what about my 401k? Well, we're talking with finance expert Vivian Tu, aka Your Rich BFF, to break it all down. I always get roasted on the internet when I say this out loud, but I'm like, every single year,
Starting point is 00:26:25 you need to be asking for a raise of somewhere between 10 to 15%. I'm not saying you're going to get 15% every single year, but if you ask for 10 to 15 and you end up getting eight, that is actually a true raise. Listen to this week's episode of Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. That rules.
Starting point is 00:26:54 Thanks. What a great story. I think this was like kind of before a lot of the conversation about AI really started taking off, you know? Sure, sure. Yeah, totally. And I will change my tune
Starting point is 00:27:05 on ai if this is what people do but i hear that i think it also plays into the kind of like user versus the tool kind of conversation as well where you know i think there is inherent issues with unchecked ai usage and regulation and stuff like that. I think you share a kind of humanism with the golden rule. I think that golden rule is, I guess, unfortunately what we're fighting for when it comes to the future of AI. But it is so pertinent to today's conversation and still so real in terms of how people will probably use something versus its, you know, unfortunate potential usages. I think you paint a very realistic picture once again. I think I wrote more sci-fi during this chunk of my life. I wrote
Starting point is 00:27:56 this story once. I don't know if I'll run up on this or not, or the story called one star that was about like self-driving cars will just drive you to jail is like the premise of the story. Yes. Yes. Because I remember it because, you know, people are talking about self-driving cars will just drive you to jail is like the premise of the story. Yes. Because I remember, because people are talking about self-driving cars and my friend was completely against it and I was living in my van at the time and I was like, I would love if my van drove itself and I could just take a nap in the back, you know? Wouldn't that be great? He was a graph kid
Starting point is 00:28:18 and he was like, if you had a war and your self-driving car would just drive you to jail. I was like, ah, fuck. Oh, fuck. It's like who controls this technology that is what matters, you know? Yeah, totally. I was really surprised. This is the kind of story that I think if I had written in like 2005, I would not have found a mainstream audience willing to like read
Starting point is 00:28:38 and be excited about a story about the complications between trolling a man into quitting or just killing him. Like, what should we do with CEOs? That's the question of this story it's like you know you can go either way it's kind of uh yeah i think i think you know you saw i mean the fact that you wrote this in 2017 is like that is some oracle shit right there seeing so far into the discourse about you know the ethics of what ceos represent um and how we deal with that is like it's definitely some crystal ball stuff right there yeah thanks well that's uh that's my story for this week and uh yeah thanks everyone for listening it was another banger it was first came out strange horizons 2018 it was also in my anthology called we won't be here tomorrow which came out
Starting point is 00:29:30 from ak press in probably 2021 or 2022 or something i'm not sure i should know it was my own book but you can read that the story and a bunch of other stories in that and um yeah daniel if people want to check out what you do how can they do it well um you can check out all the podcasts on this wonderful network this very network i'm the head engineer for cool zone media so please check out cool people who did cool stuff please check out behind the bastards please check out it could happen here please check out jamie loft is his new show um 16th minute which won't be out by the time this episode comes out but it'll be coming out very soon after i'm so excited for that me too i really can't wait just a weekly jamie loft to show i think
Starting point is 00:30:13 it's gonna be so great i know exactly check out better offline and yeah drink water wear sunscreen be good to each other that is the cool Cool Zone Media. That's actually not bad. That's a pretty good, yeah, wear sunscreen, be good to each other. And we'll see you all next Sunday. Bye. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media,
Starting point is 00:30:37 visit our website, coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso as they explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions.
Starting point is 00:31:10 Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. The 2025 iHeart Podcast Awards are coming. This is the chance to nominate your podcast for the industry's biggest award. Submit your podcast for nomination now at iHeart.com slash podcast awards. But hurry, submissions close on December 8th. Hey, you've been doing all that talking. It's time to get rewarded for it. Submit your podcast today at iHeart.com slash podcast awards.
Starting point is 00:31:48 That's iHeart.com slash podcast awards. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast. And we're kicking off our second season digging into tech's elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech brought to you by an industry veteran with nothing to lose. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts from.

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