It Could Happen Here - CZM Rewind: Printing the Revolution

Episode Date: February 17, 2025

A chance to listen to the first scripted series on Myanmar again and hear the stories of how people there stayed in the streets and refused to accept dictatorship. For new listeners, the second series on Myanmar begins here: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-it-could-happen-here-30717896/episode/how-to-build-a-revolution-myanmar-104249884/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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The hookup? The hookup for what? I'm solving a mystery through sex and haven't made a private dick joke until now? Poppers? Why are there so many poppers? All roads lead to... The hookup.

You think it's causing people to turn aggro? I'm gonna rip your arms off and use them to... Yeah, that's a word for it. ["I Heart Radio App," by The CW plays.] Listen to The Hookup on the I Heart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I'm Mary Kay McBrayer, host of the podcast, The Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told.

This season explores women from the 19th century to now. Women who were murderers and scammers, but also women who were photojournalists, lawyers, writers and more. This podcast tells more than just the brutal gory details of horrific acts. I delve into the good, the bad, the difficult, and all the nuance I can find. Because these are the stories that we need to know to understand the intersection of society, justice, and the fascinating workings of the human psyche. Join me every week as I tell some of the most enthralling true crime stories

about women who are not just victims, but heroes or villains, or often somewhere in between. Listen to the greatest true crime stories ever told on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Coolzone Media. Hi, everyone. It's President's Day today. Cool. Anyway, that means that we are giving you a rerun. And the rerun that I wanted to air today was the first series that I ever made for iHeart, or indeed the first series I ever made for anyone.

It's called Myanmar, printing the revolution. And if you've heard it before, you know what it's about. If you haven't, this takes us through the early days of the Myanmar Revolution from the coup to people taking to the mountains and fighting I wanted to share this because it's been a couple of years since we first made it and I think at a time when the whole world is worried about the way politics are going and the way that states are behaving We can learn a lot from the people of Myanmar. I don't think it matters where you are. There's something that you can take from this from the way that these people

stayed in the street and the way that they were willing to work together, to learn from one another and to become better people as they struggled to make their world better. It's a long series. I've spoken to many of the people who are in it this week, most of them are fine, they're doing well, but you will hear about someone dying at the end of this, this is war, like this is a thing that happens in war, but I wanted to give a content warning for that, such that if anybody was upset by it, they could turn off, it just

comes at the end of the final episode. If you've not heard this before, I hope you'll take the time to listen. We worked very, very hard on it, and it's very important to me. Hey everyone, I'm Robert Evans, and this is Myanmar, Printing the Revolution. It's an It Could Happen Here special mini-series, an in-depth documentary investigation with me and journalist James Stout. Over the next four days, you're going to learn about the Jinzi militias of the Myanmar Civil War, 3D printed weapons, and a bunch of other really fascinating stuff besides.

So without any further ado, here's James. Ever since the first person built the first fence, took land from everybody and annexed it to themselves, property rights and violence had gone hand in hand. With property grew the state and with the state came the police. Today most of us grew up under the control of states and they're so ubiquitous that their violence is often overlooked until a particularly egregious incident occurs. But all states, even the most benign, rest on a monopoly on violence. States are the entities that impose laws on a given area, and if you break those laws,

the state can beat you up, lock you up, or shoot you up. When the state loses a monopoly on violence, it ceases to be able to enforce its laws, charge its taxes, and enforce its will on the people it rules. We've seen this all over the world, from the Democratic Republic of Congo to, briefly, downtown Seattle. Our state in the USA speaks the language of rights and liberties. When we want to appeal to the state, we tend to use that language. Even though our state, as we saw in 2020, is backed by plenty of violence, as much as any other. It goes a

long way to camouflage that violence. Some states are a bit more mask-off. They speak to their citizens more or less exclusively through violence, and when citizens need to respond to that state, they respond in the language it uses to speak to them. That's how a teenager from Yangon, Myanmar, ended up on Reddit in summer of 2021, asking strangers how to use a 3D printer and computer to make a rifle. Myanmar isn't a country that's on the radar for most of the US. If it is at all, it's probably because of state council

and foreign minister Aung San Suu Kyi. She managed perhaps the history's fastest pivot from Nobel Peace Prize winner to head of a government accused of genocide. But Suu Sukhi is in jail now, and the Rohingya, the Muslim ethnic group that the military attempted to eliminate from the east of the country under her rule, are just one of many ethnic and political groups that are in open armed conflict with the military, who now hold control of the government of Myanmar. Known locally as the Tatmadaw, the military seized power in early 2021. You might have seen a video of a woman doing an aerobown locally as the Tatmadaw, the military seized power in early 2021.

You might have seen a video of a woman doing an aerobics workout as the vehicles rolled in behind her to seize power. Ever since that day, they've been committing crimes against humanity all over the country. Myanmar has a longer history of dictatorship than democracy. The British East India Company occupied the area that now represents the country in the 19th century. As always, they talked about civilizing missions and freedoms, but in practice, the occupation was extractive and only benefited the Anglo-Burmese and a few Indian civil servants they brought with them.

Often, Buddhist monks led the resistance that manifested itself in hunger strikes and everyday acts of disobedience, small ways of saying no. In a few instances, it became open and unrest built into the streets. The country became a major battle grinder in the Second World War, with Japan invading and seizing the country, before allied forces took it back in a fierce campaign in 1944. As many as 150,000 Japanese troops died. Burmese people fought on both sides. Aung San, Aung San Suu Kyi's father, demanded that Britain grant him and his fellow Burmese people independence if they fought for the Allies.

The British refused. Aung San then went first to China and eventually Japan for support, and eventually he fought against the British with his Burma independence army. But after two years of occupation, Aung San and his comrades changed sides. Under a broad alliance called the Anti-Fascist Organization, they turned on the Japanese, and they once again took up arms to liberate their country. On the 4th of January 1947, Burma became an independent republic. The New Republic's territory combined three British territories and over a hundred distinct

ethnic groups. For the next 14 years, these groups struggled to find a democratic Burma and an identity for themselves within it. Mostly they failed. The period was characterized by the Chinese Civil War spilling into Burma, ethnic armed insurgencies and repeated demands for a federal republic with a weak central government. In 1962, the military, irate at new demands for a federal republic, stayed to coup. Burma spent the next 22 years under the military

rule of a council, pursuing what they called the Burmese way to socialism. Burma's planned economy left it largely isolated from the rest of the world. At home, the press was censored and a type of nationalism that combined nominal socialism and Burma and ethnic identity became the official state ideology. During this period, Burma became one of the world's poorest countries. Superadic protests were met with overwhelming force. On the 8th of August 1988, an uprising began. It started among the students in Yangon, but it took root quickly around the country. The so-called 8888 Uprising,

because of the date, began with a general strike and huge non-violent protests. These were met with gunfire. Protesters fought back with Molotov cocktails and rocks. The military fired into hospitals and by September 18th they'd launched a coup to take the country from a one-party state back to a military dictatorship. With Rindi's protests at Aung San Suu Kyi, the daughter of independence hero Aung San, emerged as a national figurehead, especially in the West. Amitav Ghosh, the Indian writer, wrote the following about 8888. Across Burma, people poured out in thousands to join the protests, not just students, but also teachers, monks, children, professionals and trade unionists

of every shade. It was on this day too that the Hunta made its first determined attempt at repression. Soldiers opened fire on the demonstrators and hundreds of unarmed marches were killed. The killings continued for a week, but still the demonstrators continued to flood the streets. After the uprising had been suppressed, multi-party elections were later held. While the new National League for Democracy party of Aung San Suu Kyi won the most votes, the Hunter refused to cede power. Protests continued off and on for decades with the 2007 Saffron Revolution, in which the government violently cracked down on monks,

resulting in the most international condemnation. Following the Saffron Revolution, the government's isolationism hindering aid after extensive cyclone damage in 2008, the military government finally implemented the road-mapped, disciplined, flourishing democracy that had developed in 1993. If you're wondering about the name of the country, this officially changed in 1989 as well. But like much of the nation's history, a grand proclamation from the government didn't mean much on the ground.

Both words derive from Buranma, a name that the majority ethnic group who we're calling Burma in here use for themselves. Many opposition groups still use Burma instead of Myanmar. It's another small way of saying no to the military's attempt to control every aspect of their lives. Finally, on the 18th of September, the army took to the streets in a coup led by their chief of staff General So Mong. The next day the killings began again. It was not until 2011 that the military junta finally stepped down and passed on power to the Union Solidarity and Development Party in an election that was widely seen as fraudulent. A year later, Aung San Suu Kyi was released, and by 2015, her National League for Democracy won an absolute majority.

While she was barred from holding the presidential office, she took on the role of state counselor, and Myanmar entered a period of liberalization which, although never the federal democracy promised when the country gained its independence in 1947, allowed for significant freedoms of communication and speech, especially for the Burman majority ethnic group. Not everyone was reconciled to the change. Many of Myanmar's 135 ethnic groups feel marginalized by the state, which tends to be dominated by the Burman ethnicity. Some of these groups have armed and surgeon wings, often more than one per ethnic group

as they disagree on politics or religion. These groups have fought various Burmese governments since the 1940s, but many of them reached a ceasefire with the government as the country passed from military to civilian rule. One group, however, saw a huge uptick in violence. The Rohingya ethnic group have been persecuted by Buddhist national since the 1970s, but the campaign against them increased in violence and scale in 2016 when the Tatmadaw began a huge crackdown against Rohingya people in Rakhine State. The persecution began in response to attacks by the Arkan Rohingya Salvation Army on Burmese

border outposts, but the campaign that followed had nothing to do with the small insurgent group, and a lot to do with the desire of the Tatmadaw to destroy or drive out all Rohingya people who they claim are undocumented migrants from Bangladesh and not citizens of Myanmar. While the world praised Sukhi, her government looked the other way as the military carried out a genocide that displaced over a million people and killed tens of thousands. It was in the context of growing international condemnation of the genocide that displaced over a million people and killed tens of thousands. It was in the context of growing international condemnation of the genocide that Myanmar went to the polls in November of 2020. The November 2020 election was only the nation's second since the official end of military

rule. Aung San Suu Kyi's National League for Democracy won a resounding victory. The military-backed Union Solidarity and Development Party holds 25% of seats under a constitution that Tzu Chi wanted to change. It didn't take defeat well. The election was neither perfectly free nor fair. The Rohingya have been almost wholly disenfranchised. The government claims they are illegal immigrants from Bangladesh and thus unable to vote.

Areas with ethnic armed organizations which opposed the government often had polls canceled and internet cut off according to Human Rights Watch. The Carter Center estimates that 1.4 million citizens couldn't vote. The one opposition party that was certainly not shortchanged was the militaries. However, it was the Union Solidarity and Development Party, USDP, which had been calling for election delays due to COVID before polls opened. Once the elections concluded, they immediately began questioning the results. They continued to attempt to undermine the vote for months before they resorted to force

on the 1st of February, 2021, the day before the newly elected legislators were due to be sworn in. The world largely ignored the situation, apart from the one viral video where a masked fitness instructor dances in the foreground as APCs roll through a roadblock and into the parliament complex behind her. Aung San Suu Kyi was arrested, charged with breaching COVID-19 restrictions and illegally importing a walkie talkie, and General Minh Ong Hlaing was installed at the head of a military junta.

If this sounds a little like a stop the steal fantasy, that's because it is eerily similar to one. Myanmar's democracy is not what academics call a consolidated one, which is to say that democracy has never been the only game in town there. But the United States seems to be rapidly deconsolidating its own democracy. The allegations of election fraud in Myanmar were no more credible than those in Arizona. However, the military's tradition of political engagement there removed many of the barriers in between electoral defeat and the death of a short-lived democracy.

Within 24 hours of the coup, the people of Myanmar had fought back. Healthcare workers and civil servants were on strike by February 3rd, and a boycott of junta-owned businesses had begun. Protests began with a handful of people. The memories of massacres of pro-democracy protesters in the 1980s kept many away. But a younger generation who had grown up with relative liberty, internet access, and basic freedoms had not seen blood in the streets like their parents. They had seen activists in Hong Kong, the USA and Ukraine take on violent state apparatuses,

and they'd often seen them win. By the 6th of February, 20,000 people were in the streets of Yangon, the largest city, and the internet was shut down nationwide. Protests began peacefully with memeable signs like, my ex is bad, but the military is worse. And we are protesting peacefully, but with the WAP capitalized so it said WAP. These signs were designed by a generation of kids who grew up with access to the internet to attract international attention. Despite the ban they used VPNs to show an image of their

struggle. One sign read you've messed with the wrong generation now we'll never be allowed to ruin our own lives. The Tatmadaw showed its cards pretty quickly. Police began the suppression with slingshots and clubs. Then tear gas and flashbang, and quickly they were moved to rifles and rocket-mopel grenades. By the 9th of February, Maya Twee Twee Hine, a 20-year-old woman, had been shot in the street. Soon, there's young protesters who switch sides for shields.

By mid-March on Arm 40's day, 114 civilians were killed in a single day, including 65 in Yangon, who were kettled by police, surrounded, and then shot. Quickly, shield walls were set up, medics identified themselves in the protest movement, and hard hats and goggles were distributed. But this didn't hit the balance of power in their favour. Suo Lin, a former student union leader, was there from the start. So Orlin, a former student union leader, was there from the start. In a text message, he told me, I did not miss a single day as a member of the Kaya State National Strike Committee. I later became more involved in anti-authoritarian protests. In the early protests, you see him in photos walking in the front of the group carrying flags and banners

with his student ID card on a lanyard around his neck. But by March, he's wearing a black shirt, goggles, and a hard construction hat. Meanwhile, the National League for Democracy politicians who had escaped detention joined other parties and set up a National Unity Government in April. The National Unity Government contained members of the National League for Democracy, but significantly a Rohingya activist was appointed an advisor in the Ministry of Human Rights, and the National League for Democracy. But significantly, a Rohingya activist was appointed an advisor in the Ministry of Human Rights and the National Unity Government has announced it would for the first time accept the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court with respect

to all international crimes committed in Myanmar since 2002. This would include the Rohingya genocide. By May, both the National Unity Government and Zwaalin had realised that no amount of non-violent protest was going to dislodge a regime that was happy to gun down kids in the street. So on the 5th of May, he left for the jungle. That same day, the National Unity Government announced the formation of the People's Defence Force, or PDF. Within a month, 800 soldiers were affected to these pro-democracy guerrilla units. Many brought their guns with them. But Zawar didn't join the PDF. Instead, he joined one of Myanmar's many ethnic armed organizations. Groups opposed to the central state and its domination by the Burmese ethnicity. To understand these groups, you need to understand

that Myanmar is composed of dozens, not hundreds of ethnic groups, but that the Burmese, who make up about two thirds of the population, have always controlled the state and used it as a tool in furthering their interest. Some of these groups, like the Karen National Liberation Army and the Kachin Independence Army, have been fighting for decades since the country emerged from British colonial rule at the end of World War II. All of these groups draw on a combination of ethnic and political grievances. Many of them administer semi-autonomous territories, like the Karen State.

In 2013, 13 Ethnic Armed Organizations, or EAOs, came together to form the Nationwide Ceasefire Coordinating Team, NCCT, and signed an 11-point common position of ethnic resistance organizations on national ceasefire, or the LIZA agreement. Most of them seemed to agree that they would accept a federal system, rather than complete autonomy. In 2015, a ceasefire was signed, but conflict between ethnic armed organizations and between EEOs and the government continued. Since the coup began, EEO membership has skyrocketed, and in October, the National Unity Government

announced alliances with several groups under a central chain of command. Some political organizations who played a part in the 1988 uprising, like the All-Burma Students' Democratic Front, have been revived as armed groups. The ABSDF recently attacked Tatmadaw ships using an RPG. Attacks on military bases have also stepped up. PDF units have ambushed and killed policemen and raided police and military outposts. Each time they do, they steal valuable weapons and ammunition. The Tatmadaw has responded with shellings and airstrikes against residential areas,

executions, mass physical retribution, and the murdering of civilians and aid workers and burning of their bodies. As a result of all this, ethnic armed organizations have joined forces with anti-authoritarian Burman people under the auspices of the People's Defense Forces, which are under the command of the exiled National Unity Government. We have never experienced such kind of brutalities from the military as well as a strong resistance from the people. They try to make sure the whole country submit to them but we still refuse to allow them to be our This defiance has led to the formation of the People's Defense Forces, or PDF, a coalition of thousands of resistance fighters who are carrying out surprise attacks on hunter checkpoints,

bombing army convoys, and supporting ethnic armies in their fight against the regime. 12 months ago, these men and women were students and office workers protesting the coup. Today, they're training to overthrow the military. Being a soldier is a tough choice, but the young people, they are ready to defend the communities. They have to, of course, sacrifice their own daily life, ordinary life. Since March of 2020, the influx of new recruits has changed these groups. Generation Z militias like the Karini Jin Z Liberation Army have sprung up, founded by

kids who were holding memeable signs at protests just a few months earlier. They care less about ethnic independence and more about beating the junta. Many Burman kids joined these groups. These organizations of young fighters received training from the experienced guerrillas hiding in the jungle, but they tended to adopt a less top-down military structure and armed themselves by scavenging whatever weapons they could find, often.22 caliber rifles better suited to shooting squirrels than soldiers. It was these kids who grew up online and knew that there was nothing you couldn't learn

about on Reddit who tipped the balance of force away from the state. Unlike the ethnic armed organizations and other more experienced guerrillas in Myanmar, these kids have little military experience. Their organizations have few rules and regulations. They're made up entirely of young people. Indians have little military experience. Their organizations have few rules and regulations. They're made up entirely of young people. As a result, there are certain things that they're less proficient at, but they're much better at things like grasping the use of new technologies, which has led to Myanmar

being the first country in the world where 3D printed weapons have taken part in a revolution against the government. We're going to hear more about that and many other things as this series continues. Have you ever looked into the night sky and wondered who or what was flying around up there? We've seen planes, helicopters, hot air balloons, and birds, but what if there's something else, something much more ominous, that appears under the cover of night, silent, unseen, watching? They may be right above your car late one night as you cruise down the road or look like mysterious lights

hovering above your home. Drones. Or are they? We used the word drone because it was comfortable to other people. One minute it was there and one minute it wasn't. Oh that is beyond creepy. Do you feel like this drone was targeting you specifically? Yes, absolutely. Listen to Obscurum, invasion of the drones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple

podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. John Stewart is back at The Daily Show and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with The Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into Jon's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the shows, correspondents and contributors. And with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else.

Ready to laugh and stay informed? Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here? Ow goes lower. I met Santi at a luau party in October. I'm Santi.

Damien. Oh, it was bizarre. The guy just disappeared one day. Santi has been missing ever since. The hookup, what is that? I'm solving a mystery through sex and haven't made a private dick joke until now? Like, no matter how hard I try,

all roads lead to the hookup. You think it's causing people to turn aggro? I'm gonna rip your arms off and use them to- Yeah, that's a word for it. This is such terrible representation, I'm so sorry. Poppers? These aren't just any poppers. Mama always used to say, God gave me gumption in place of a gag reflex.

No. My psychiatrist didn't laugh at that one either. Listen to the hookup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I'm Mary Kay McBrayer, host of the podcast, The Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told. Join me every week as I tell some of the most enthralling true crime stories about women who are not just victims, but heroes or villains, or often somewhere in between. Listen to The Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts? Hey everybody, I'm Robert Evans and this is Myanmar, Printing the Revolution, part two. Since the dawn of firearms, regular people all over the world have had the same basic idea. Maybe if I made myself a gun, the government wouldn't be able to be such a dick to me. Historically, this has had little impact on the willingness of governments to be dicks to people.

In the beginning, all gun manufacturing was done by individual artisans, and thus making a gun in your home was really no different from making it in a shop, as long as you had the proper tools. Guns in this period weren't super useful on their own, and were best fired in a volley by a shitload of dudes at once. Since individual firearms were extremely inaccurate and cumbersome to use, the fact that some poor blacksmith could make himself one wasn't much of a threat to anybody in power. It did mean that battlefield prowess came from large blocks of trained soldiers, not

feudal lords on horseback rallying untrained peasants. This change in technology led to a change in warfare, and helped to change society. As firearms evolved and became the central weapons of battle, they required more intense tooling and more expensive manufacturing capacity. Nations and peoples without the know-how or infrastructure were at a tremendous disadvantage. As soon as this situation came into being, these unfortunate communities set to work finding ways to gain the advantages of firearms without the manufacturing capacity their foes enjoyed.

Indigenous cannons in regions resisting imperialism often consisted of composite materials, less sturdy than bronze or iron. In the 1600s and 1700s, indigenous Americans in South America used wooden cannons to fight against Spanish and Portuguese conquerors. The Vietnamese used wooden cannons to resist the French during the Cochin China Campaign of 1862. American Indians used wooden artillery

to blast settler fortifications in the 1700s and 1800s. In the months that led up to the outbreak of the Revolutionary War, the men who fought to create the United States busied themselves building rifles and cannons in their homes and communities to resist the English. This trend has never really stopped in warfare. The day before we recorded this, James, my partner in the series, sent me a screen grab from a livestream of someone in Ukraine printing pieces for AK-47s on a 3D printer.

Firearms manufactured outside the arms industry have played a role in every conflict of the modern era. But as you've probably guessed, they have had the greatest influence in the little wars of colonialism. European nations rarely allowed any sort of firearms ownership in their colonies, except the individuals and ethnic groups that adopted as local enforcers. Since most of these places had never developed their own industrial base for an arms industry, colonial rebellions often relied on homemade weapons in their early stages, along with modern firearms pilfered by deserting local soldiers.

Where domestic productive capacity existed, European colonizing nations went out of their way to relocate it, along with the profit it generated to the metropole. Orwell reflected on this in his novel Burmese Dates, saying, In the 18th century, the Indians cast guns that were at any rate up to the European standard. Now, after we've been in India 150 years, you can't make so much as a brass cartridge case in the whole continent. Meanwhile, among the colonizers, being armed became almost a synonym for being a man. This was particularly true for the colonial police forces and militaries.

But it was also true domestically. Most people are broadly familiar with the US Second Amendment and the robust gun culture that it spawned, but during the height of colonialism, English citizens were also free to arm themselves. In 1900, Prime Minister Robert Gascoigne Cecil, Marquis of Salisbury, gave a speech in which he claimed he would lord the day when there was a rifle in every cottage in England. Firearms were utterly unrestricted at this point. The first change to this came in 1903,

with the first law that required a permit to carry a handgun and restricted children from buying guns. Still, firearms were widely available until a Red Panic gripped the nation in 1919 following the Bolshevik revolution in Russia. Across the ocean in Spain, where firearms ownership was less strictly restricted, where Orwell himself would learn what it was to fire a rifle at someone who shot back, armed unions and working people served as the only bulwark to a military coup in 1936. In Madrid, one officer opened his armory to the Union militias, but another refused to hand

over the bolts for the guns that had been issued. In Barcelona, where the anarchist left had a long tradition of armed political violence, the coup was repelled by workers with guns, and the general leading troops there was imprisoned and executed. The same pattern played out all across the country in July 1936 when the military rose up to topple the elected government. In the cities where the government opened the armories to the people, the coup was repelled. In the cities where the government did not, the coup succeeded. Reflecting on this in 1941, Orwell wrote, the totalitarian states can do great things, but there is one thing they cannot do.

They cannot give factory worker a rifle and tell him to take it home and keep it in his bedroom. That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working-class flat is a symbol of democracy. It's a job to see that it stays there. Despite Orwell's pleas, the years that followed the Second World War led to greater restrictions of the ability of the public to arm itself. By the 1950s, carrying any weapon for self-defense was illegal. Semi-automatic centerfire arms were banned in 1988, and pistols were banned

in 1996 after a mass shooting killed 16 children in Dunblane. This was all utterly infuriating to a man named Philip A. Loody. Loody, born in 1965, grew up on a farm in West Yorkshire, England. We don't have a tremendous amount of detail about his upbringing, but by the time he was in his early 30s, he'd become a committed crusader for an unrestricted right to bear arms. A skilled machinist with a well-equipped shop, Looty began the long process of learning how to craft homemade firearms.

Soon he was building semi- and fully-automatic weapons. These were not military-grade firearms. The barrels were unrifled, which made them terribly inaccurate. But every piece could be crafted from widely available things like sheet metal, washers, and screws. The person assembling a Ludi gun would need to be a skilled craftsman, but they would not need access to welding rigs, forges,

or other expensive industrial equipment. Ludi published a book, Expedient Homemade Firearms, the 9-millimeter submachine gun, in 1998 through Paladin Press. In the late 1990s, Paladin was one of the places you could go to mail order fringe political literature and guides for stuff like trapping human beings or disabling the drive system of an Abrams tank. In the United States, nothing about Lootie's book was or is illegal.

But Phil didn't live in the United States. He was arrested several times, starting in the late 1990s, when a pair of illegal home-built guns were found on his property. Loody spent the rest of his life, which ended in 2011, operating a website where he raged against gun control. His main argument was that England was headed for totalitarianism. And like Orwell, he believed only public ownership of arms could prevent this.

Unlike Orwell, Looty was firmly on the right wing. He traced society's problems to, quote, "...a combination of political correctness and anti-freedom of speech laws, legislation governing how we speak about such subjects as religion or a person's race, being just two examples. Words and phrases that have been used for centuries without malice are now insipid in people's mouths and said to cause offense by those very same speech police,

who on the other hand turned a blind eye to the violence, foul language and sexual references blasted daily through our TV sets. A phenomenon that really does cause offense to many people. Ludi never succeeded in sparking a renaissance and civilian arms ownership in the UK. But his ideas were adopted by organized criminal groups all around the world. In Brazil, Ludi guns can go for as much as $2,500.

From 2011 to 2012, nearly half of the submachine guns seized by police in São Paulo were homemade. Most of these arms were certainly used as tools by drug dealers or other gangsters. But some of them were surely also the tools of citizens who simply sought a way to defend themselves in a place with no real rule of law. Looty guns have long been popular among motorcycle gangs in Australia. And in October of 2019, a fascist terrorist carried out the last of that year's eight Chan shootings in Halle, Germany, with a looty gun. In October of 2019, a fascist terrorist carried out the last of that year's 8-chan shootings in Halle, Germany, with a Looty gun.

His weapons, thankfully, did not work well. As a general rule, Looty guns were never going to be of much use to anyone besides organized criminals. They aren't great in a gunfight, but you can use them to spray bullets into a room or a vehicle at close range. Pretty well. The year after Phil Looty died, 2012, a fellow named Cody Wilson decided to carry on his work.

Cody felt 3D printing carried the possibility of eventually manufacturing arms of a quality that might rival traditionally produced guns. He started simple, with a single shot.380 handgun based around the old Liberator pistol from World War II. The Liberator had been a single-shot.45 caliber handgun, meant to be dropped into Nazi-occupied territories and used by insurgents to stealthily kill single German soldiers and take their guns. Cody Wilson described himself as a crypto-anarchist, and when his ideas began to draw attention,

he dropped out of law school to create Defense Distributed. This organization was dedicated to the development and distribution of plans to craft 3D printed weapons. It used a platform called DefCAD to allow users to develop and share blueprints. In 2013, the first CAD gun file became available online to everyone. It was downloaded more than 100,000 times in two days. I'd like to quote now from an article on the website 3D Natives.

This prompted the US government to demand that Defense Distributed remove the file from their site. What followed is a legal battle between Cody Wilson and the US government consisting of back and forth lawsuits. It lasted five years until in 2018, the Trump administration legalized 3D printed guns. The same year, Wilson was charged with sexual assault of an underage girl and had to step down from defense distributed.

Nonetheless, the organization did not cease to exist without Cody. Today, for a yearly fee of $50, users of the DefCAD website can access the files containing different designs of 3D printed guns. And I should note here that it's probably more accurate to say the Trump administration legalized sharing the plans and printing the files and whatnot of 3D printed guns, not legalized 3D printed guns. Homemade firearms have been federally legal in the United States since forever. The fighting in the courts over all this has continued ever since.

And in 2019, a federal judge in Seattle temporarily blocked DefCAD. This sparked the creation of a new group, Deterrence Dispensed, which was even less centralized. The basic idea was that this would make them harder to take down via lawsuits or police action. Not stated was that this might also protect their reputation from a Cody Wilson situation. The debate over the legality of 3D printed firearm plans continues on to the present day, but the development of these arms has continued at an ever faster pace.

The best modern 3D printed arms can even rival conventional guns. It's worth emphasizing that these are not purely plastic tools. The Liberator pistol used a metal nail, and the better 3D arms have metal barrels, rifled using other craft methods that require some know-how, but arguably less than it took to manufacture a looty gun. 3D printed arms have been confiscated by police around the world, but in recent months, they've begun to crop up somewhere new, in the arms of revolutionaries fighting against a military coup. Myanmar, and Burma before that, has had relatively strict gun control laws for decades.

When George Orwell was a policeman there in the 1920s, he may have carried a gun, but the people he was policing did not. In the 1930s, the British leaders allowed TAT organizations, similar to militias, to form and drill, but they weren't allowed to carry guns. Gun licenses under the dictatorship were issued primarily to party members, but most were revoked after the 1988 failed pro-democracy uprising. The only civilians who were permitted to own arms were the Chin, the nation's poorest ethnic group, who rely on guns to hunt for food. In many cases, these guns were flintlocks that would not have looked that out of place on a battlefield two centuries before.

In practice, though, things are very different. The current conflict is best seen as a flare-up in violence that has been ongoing since Britain left the country in 1947. The Tatmadaw has consistently used violence against marginalised ethnic groups in the country, and they have consistently taken up arms in response. But unlike civil wars in the Middle East, wealthy nations in the West have not been flooding Myanmar with weapons for decades, and the various EAOs, or ethnic armed organizations, have had to turn to much more unorthodox routes to arm and equip themselves against the government. To get a better idea of what things are like on the ground, we spoke to Pierre. He's French, but he's a serial volunteer with National Liberation Struggles around the world, and fought with the Karen people in the early 2000s.

Yes, so the ammunition is a constant problem. The shortage is absolutely permanent. And yes, there is two sources for the weapons there. It's the black market and the prices, especially of ammunition, are prohibitive. This is why I would like to have my notebook here with me because I think I wrote down the conversation I had with some leaders of the KNLA at the time, asking them why we didn't do more operations. Well, like, yeah, we just can't afford it.

We just can't afford it. Like strictly, we don't have enough ammunition to do any kind of operation. All the operations we did were always focused on if we could capture some ammunition. If we could capture weapons, but especially ammunition. So that's the second source of, of course, of weapon, let's say source, is the captures, of course. Then the black market. The black market used to be huge in Cambodia. I don't know what's the situation now.

It was in the 90s. It was a bit of Albania of Southeast Asia at this time. There is also the other ethnic groups that receive sometimes, say, a lot of arms and ammunition from sponsors. Some of them, like the Western armies, are sponsored by China, so their supply of ammunition is pretty good. Of weapons, I think they even have artillery and stuff. Then there is other ethnic groups that also produce locally quite good, their own arms, light arms usually. So yeah, these are the different sources of welcome in the time I was there. In the early weeks of the protests, once it became clear that non-violent demonstrators

were going to be met with state violence, protesters began to fashion weapons. First, they fought soldiers with assault rifles using catapults and bows and arrows. It was incredibly brave, but it wasn't very effective. By the 28th of March, protesters had taken a step further. A group calling itself the Calais Civil Army set up barricades and defended them using pressurized air rifles that fired marbles and bicycle wheel bearings. The rifles all used the same design, and the same components. They were based on a video someone found on YouTube, but they weren't lethal.

They helped protesters defend their space, albeit at great cost. In that first clash, four protesters and four soldiers were killed. The protesters in Calais were able to hold out a few days. Using old hunting rifles and air guns, they ambushed military patrols and they took four police hostage. Then they exchanged them for nine incarcerated protesters. But in early April the Tantamador returned to the protest camp in Calais with rocket-propelled grenades and machine guns and killed 11 people. We must fight back against them. If not, our generation will face a worse situation than us.

They have no laws, a neighborhood villager who battled the regime's forces told the Irrawaddy, a local paper. The air guns spread around the country quickly. To avoid surveillance, protesters talked about cooking up biryani on telegram channels, and what they meant was desperately scouring the internet for a way to fight back, and finding a way to make an air rifle out of a butane canister, a pipe, and a cigarette lighter. Combined with fireworks and smoke bombs made of potassium nitrate, the air rifle gave protesters just enough cover to escape police charges. The air rifle gave protesters just enough cupboard to escape police charges.

But they also gave the junta an excuse to further escalate the violence. Attitudes are hardening among the protesters, too. In Mandalay, they took air rifles to the barricades on Saturday. Hardly a match for the weapons of war they face. But now they know this is a fight to the death and more destruction after a fire raged in Piji Daugun township overnight. People living there, but kept away by security forces, return to find 60 homes burned to the ground. Now all they can do is pick through the ashes, trying to save anything from the military's

policy of scorched earth. Even the Tatmadaw makes its own weapons, a highly unusual move for a relatively small nation. Tatmadaw troops and police can be seen with a bewildering array of indigenously produced copies of M16s, Uzi's, and even 5.56 Galil pattern AK style rifles, as well as M3 light machine guns, which are slightly updated copies of the MG42 used by the Nazis in World War II. After the failed 8.8.8.8 uprisings in 1988, the military offered concessions to China in return for more advanced weapons. They got them, but it didn't stop China from also supplying ethnic armed organizations.

EAOs don't have access to the same munitions factories that the government does, but there is a long tradition of homemade weapons in Myanmar. In more remote parts of the country, homemade air rifles and shotguns seem to have been relatively commonplace before the start of the conflict, and they were mostly used for hunting. The country is also covered with land mines, which the EAOs use to great effect against the Tatmadaw. We spoke to Pierre, a former combatant with the Carinne who no longer lives in Myanmar. covered with landmines, which the EAOs used to great effect against the Tatmadaw. We spoke to Pierre, a former combatant with the Karin, who no longer lives in Myanmar. His experience is not that recent, but it helps us to understand the way this conflict

has been fought for decades. What we use to produce a lot of landmines. That's produced at the base, yes. With very rough systems, with a little bit of plastic explosives, a couple of bamboo for contactors and a battery. That's it. Pellet guns are not good for combat, and EAOs mostly relied on weapons imported from Thailand, India or China. Overwhelmingly, these were AK or M16 pattern rifles.

Yeah, mostly in my, in the units I've been there, it's probably a majority of AK platforms in this time, yes. Definitely. I mean, it's more reliable and simple to operate. It's very adapted to the type of guerrilla. It was quite correct. I mean, from the moment that I switched to AKS, at least because at first I tried to use this super fancy M16 and it was a nightmare of malfunctions. So I switched back to AKS which is what I best know and used all my E.A.O.s. I never really had any malfunction with the KS. Maybe one time with a faulty lot of ammunition, but that's it. Not really the rifle's fault. The fight, Pierre says, has never been restricted to the battlefield. For the Taut Medard,

violence against civilians is part of their Four Cuts doctrine that cuts off funding, food, intelligence, and recruits for the EAOs. Now they are moving that same outlook to the cities. They are literally abided by absolutely no laws of war or health. I mean, one of the first things that I saw when we went doing patrolling in the Karen villages around our zone of operation is that there was absolutely no girl between the age of 11 to the age of 17.

I was like, I ask, you know, my, my, the age of 11 to the age of 17. I was like, I asked my commander about it. And he says, yeah, like, obviously if they stay here, they will be raped by the Tatmadaw and the first patrol. Like the first times they will come. So this gives you a little bit of the tone of what they are about. They constantly run some civilians when they don't murder them, like shell villages for

no reason or because there had been an operation of the KNLA. And they take revenge on who they can take revenge on, the civilians. You know, this is how they behave. This is who they are, basically. The Taat Madaw is a large army and many of the conscripts are hardly high speed operator types, but that hasn't stopped them from killing thousands of innocent civilians. I mean, they have, as many armies, different units with different military value. Let's say, you know, many times the units that are stuck on hilltop in the middle of a rebel zone are not like the most combative, let's say, but sometimes

you get surprised at the resistance. But yeah, except of that, when they do an operation in a place, they bring in like more elite troops, let's say. By contrast, the KNLA, the Kareni National Liberation Army, and other EAOs relied on civilian support to survive. The KNLA operates in Karen territory, and civilians are carean i mean uh um pretty much when we when we arrive in uh in a village there's there's medics you know that uh with us that take care of the population uh distribute medicine uh no like i don't know what to tell you.

It's quite a funny accusation coming from the Fat Man. This attitude has helped them, Pierre says, and they have always been open to non-Karin recruits. First of all, it's not absolutely not, let's say, some kind of ethnicist organization or ethno-nationalist, like, you know, some hate for other ethnic group, including the Bama ethnic group that, like, traditionally, you know, are the leaders of the Tatmadaw that have been oppressing them for 70 years,

but they have absolutely no resentment. They are extremely open to work with the democratic forces from every ethnic group. In fact, yes. Since 1988, Pierre said, the KNLA had been willing to link up with democratic rebels, providing them with training and shelter in order to further their shared goal

of a federal and democratic country that treated all ethnicities with respect. So PDF, so these Bama rebels, let's say, are so trained by the Karen's and so by people I know very well since it was my commander then, Nardar Bomiya. So I've seen the Karen's have always been extremely accommodating to the the Bamar proposition, meaning the Bamar are the main ethnic group.

I'd say this for people that might not know the difference. And so the Karen's always had representation and they took like, you know, political refugees, let's say from inside Burma in the territories they control. Monopoles was like the student association, which exactly my country call right now, but all these are Bamao organization of opposition. And so now they keep this tradition by helping these new rebels of the PDF to get military training.

By the summer of 2020, young people had flooded into the jungles and many of them, even the ones of Burman ethnicity, were fighting alongside the Karin and Karini rebels they'd previously seen as troublemakers and terrorists just a year or two before. We spoke with one of these people, Zha Lin, who left his home in May of 2021. There was students, friends, but also young people from just the neighborhood. Most people were just above 20. A lot of them were single, you know, there's women as well. People who knew technology, young people from the technology, computer, colleges, Leuikov

University. technology, computer, uh, colleges, like university. A lot of these people who knew modern technology went into the jungle to go in the jungle to train and be able to overthrow the men on my government. So there was, it was very tiring. We had to go up and down on lots of hills. It was two days of walking to get there. So we went up and down the hills and back down, up and down until we got to the training plant. Have you ever looked into the night sky and wondered who or what was flying around up there?

We've seen planes, helicopters, hot air balloons, and birds, but what if there's something else, something much more ominous that appears under the cover of night, silent, unseen, watching. They may be right above your car late one night as you cruise down the road or look like mysterious lights hovering above your home. Drones, or are they? We used to work drone because it was comfortable to other people.

One minute it was there and one minute it wasn't. Oh, that is beyond creepy. Do you feel like this drone was targeting you specifically? Yes, absolutely. Listen to Obscureum, Invasion of the Drones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Ready to laugh and stay informed? Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here? How goes lower? I met Santi at a luau party in October. I'm Santi Damian.

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or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, I'm Robert Evans and welcome to episode three of Printing the Revolution. Here's my partner, James Stout. In the spring and summer of 2020, millions of Americans had versions of the same experience. State forces killed a helpless man. Protesters took to the streets in anger. And armed agents of the state responded with mass violence. A lot of people's lives changed forever in fairly short order. What happened in Myanmar after the military coup was that story turned up to a level.

Within days, the military had used live fire on demonstrators. Zor, our source for today's episode, was 22 years old at the time. He spent his days working as a delivery driver, hanging out with his girlfriend, playing video games. On the day the coup started, he was playing PUBG after a long shift. Soon he and his girlfriend took to the streets with thousands of other Gen Z Burmese kids. The state responded with massacres, often firing automatic weapons into the crowds. Zohar hadn't been particularly politically active before this moment. In fact, he felt pretty poorly towards revolutionaries opposing the government in the jungle,

seeing them as rebellious troublemakers. In the past, we thought that the military is a group that loves all the people, all the different groups in the country. And then there's just a few people who really hate the people, all the different groups in the country. And then there's just a few people who really hate the military, but especially after the 2021, we face it with our own foreheads, in home with the guns, we can face the evil of the military and all the human rights and things that people who hated the military before were talking about we understand it now because we had to face it ourselves and then they're gonna call us terrorists and however

much they call us we know that we're fighting for human rights and we know that each person deserves these basic things, you know, so, so even when we capture a soldier, we don't kill them immediately, they're unarmed, you know. When they capture a PDF, they torture and kill them very, very horrifically or horrendously. And they kill and hurt all the citizens and ordinary bystanders. So for us, what they're calling as rebels before, we're not rebels. They're the ones that are rebels. So we have to call them rebels. They're the terrorists.

But as violence against protestors escalated, Zuo began to see through the lies he'd been told by the military all his life. What we're calling as rebels are what we kind of become, but we know why we are now rebels. That's because of their terrorism, their oppressive regimes, and their violation of human rights. That's why we have to revolt against them. For a time, protesters responded creatively, with giant potato guns meant to fire less lethal projectiles long distances. These homemade guns would be fired in volleys, while other protesters protected them with shields. Some of these tactics were effective at point, but it quickly became clear that the government was willing to massacre everyone standing up to them. So his girlfriend and their friends quickly decided that nonviolent

resistance wasn't going to work. But they didn't give up. As we get into June, there's two paths, right? We can be normal, we can go on the streets, we can ask for the people's power back. And since that's not working, we know that what we have to do is we need to hold these guns, get these guns. And on the military side, all they know is that they will solve this by holding guns. So the only path that's left for us

is to take those guns for ourselves. So around the end of May, we started entering training school. So the down tool is the word he used and something like this corner part. So one corner part one to two. So he's talking what that means is that in the huntings, huntings that we were doing, hunting rifles that we were using for that. So we kind of started and we fought first in DeMosa.

If we can ask the military nicely, then there's no reason for us to be using gun. But since they don't listen to our demands or our requests at all, then the, and since that all we can do, all they are saying, all they're doing is using the guns and being terrorists trying to shoot us. So the only thing that we can do to get what we need and what we want is to take the guns for ourselves.

And so, like hundreds of people his age, Zohr headed into the jungle in May of 2021. The decision wasn't an overnight one or an easy one. But after protesting non-violently, then meeting state violence with community defense, then seeing his peers gunned down in the street, he didn't have many other choices. He'd picked up a megaphone, then a shield, and now he was heading in the jungle to pick up a rifle. The only problem was that there weren't any rifles.

He left with his girlfriend and, quote, with the blessing of his parents. Keep that in mind for later. When he first went to the jungle, Zal went to a two-week training camp where the Karini People's Defense Force taught him the basics of guerrilla warfare. But they didn't have enough weapons to arm him and his friends. So these Gen Z militants began their fighting careers with.22 caliber rifles. If you aren't a gun person, the.22 was one of the smallest widely available bullets. Like any bullet, it can kill, but as a caliber, it's better suited for shooting rabbits than soldiers.

These 22 rifles were hand-made locally and only fired one shot at a time. But it was those rifles that Zah, his girlfriend, and their friends carried into their first gunfight with the Tatmadaw. After battling like that for about three weeks, the shooting stopped, he said in an interview we conducted over Signal. After the shooting stopped, we grouped together money to buy arms by asking for donations. They were massively outgunned, but determined to fight on with the weapons they could make and buy on the black market until they could find something better, even if that meant

taking guns from dead soldiers. The military's guns are extremely good, of course, compared to.22s," he said. We fight with the mindset that we must win. Our minds are always prepared to take their guns when a soldier falls. It's a mindset to want the enemy's arms to be your own arms. You need to want to resist injustice. Because we are fighting for what is right. We do not get sad, even if we die.

We are happy even when wounded. We no longer care if our arms are matched unevenly." Now, despite their enthusiasm, PDF units all over the country were finding themselves in the same desperate situation. When thousands of young people in Myanmar decided to take up arms against the government, there just weren't enough guns to go around. AK pattern rifles sell for $3,000 on the black market, and ARs sell for up to $7,000. The GDP per capita in 2020 was just $1218.35 per person. And unlike militias in Syria and Iraq, the pro-democracy EAOs in Myanmar don't have

the benefit, questionable benefit, of the US flooding the region with its firehose of guns and money. Undeterred, Zaw and his squad took to YouTube, where they found videos explaining how to make.223 caliber bolt-action rifles. Again, if you're not a gun person,.223 may not sound very different than.22. But whereas.22 is commonly used to shoot squirrels,.223 is the standard rifle round, more or less, for the US military. These new bolt-action.223 Zah and his friends were making could not match the rate of fire

of a modern rifle, but they could at least match those rifles in stopping power. Once these Gen Z insurgents had the technique down, they created a detailed album on Facebook showing how everything from the stock to the barrel could be made with pipes, lumber, and hours and hours of detailed hard work. Unlike their guerrilla warfare instructors, these kids had grown up on the internet rather than the jungle. So they knew that if it exists, there's a subreddit for it. It was the internet that came to their rescue.

3D printed guns have been around for a decade, but the early models didn't work well and suffered from a pretty bad reputation due in part to Cody Wilson, the pedophile libertarian activist we discussed last episode. Jake Hanrahan of Popular Front has covered the printed gun movement extensively. Cody Wilson made it his whole thing. Like I'm the guy with the 3D printed guns and he was on this moral crusade. The 3D printed gun lads, particularly deterrence dispense, were like, yeah, we don't give a shit about that.

We're just putting our stuff out into the world. Obviously they got their ideas, but they weren't really wedded to this idea of it being one person. Deterrence dispensed was a group of anonymous activists who were more concerned with making printed guns that worked than making a name for themselves. Hanrahan was connected to one activist who used the pseudonym J. Stark through the group. And after three years of conversing online, Hanrahan met Stark in Germany to produce a documentary.

J. Stark died of a heart attack following a police raid last year. So we spoke to Hanrahan about Stark's worldview. His whole worldview comes from this idea that, you know, it's everybody should have the right to be able to fight tyranny. And if you can't fight tyranny Like you're fucked and the way to fight tyranny in the modern era is firearms. We know that you know, there's there's no

You can't argue is that no peaceful march gets rid of a fascist dictatorship or whatever, but he was He he was you know, there's some people would say he was far right Some people say was an anarchist some people say he was an anarchist. Some people say he was a US patriot. I mean, first, he wasn't even from America and he had a lot of, he liked the laws in America, but he wasn't like some American kind of fanboy or anything on that sense. Like the gun laws. He liked the gun laws.

He liked the freedom of speech laws, which I do as well. You know, like personally, I, in this country, you know, if you tweet the wrong thing, even in jest, like police will literally come to your house in Britain. Like it's happened. It's fucking mental. Um, so yeah, he liked that kind of thing. Um, and I think, I think for him, it was, he was very tunnel vision, you know, he was very tunnel vision. It was just freedom, freedom, freedom. And if you said, well, what about this? What about that? He was like, I don't care about that until the freedom is there. There's no point looking at anything else. And so his brain was always on people that are living under tyranny, you know,

and it genuinely was. I know there's a lot of people, even leftist, particularly leftists, have tried to completely smear him as a white supremacist. They were saying, oh, everything he said in that doc that I made was really, it was secret anti-Jewish white supremacy. And then it came doc that I made was really, it was secret, anti-Jewish white supremacy. And then it came out that he wasn't even white. You know, it's like, very good, very good, you fucking idiots.

So there was a lot of that going around, but I honestly believe that deep down, he was just tunnel vision focused on this idea of every, until everybody is not living under tyranny, I must go on this mission. And okay, if someone shoots up a school with what I've invented, so be it. Which I'm not saying that's good, but that was just his idea. He was like, so be it, fuck it. If I can... He was very genuine when he was on about the Uighurs, or he was on about the mistreatment

of Kurds from Turkey. He was like, look, if we can build something that can help them, well, sorry that the West might get fucked up because of it, but I'm focused on this. Now, obviously in practice, that would be chaos probably, but he just saw it the way he saw it and that was that. The cavalier attitude Stark seems to have had to how his invention might be used is, of course, worthy of criticism. But the revolutionaries on the ground in Myanmar were not concerned with ideological debates

over the ethics of homemade firearms. They needed guns and they needed them now. Jay Stark's FGC-9, which stands for Fuck Gun Control 9mm, was simple to make, easy to use, and relied entirely on parts you could print or buy in any hardware store. In September of 2021, a post popped up on the Foscad subreddit, which is dedicated to the manufacturing of 3D printed guns.

Stark is a hero there. The post said, Wanted to say thanks to this community, the creators of FGC9 and the various mods when we could. You guys are literally empowering the armed revolution against dictators in one of the most underdeveloped countries. We are now equipped with FGC9 and starting the armed revolution to the coup leader dictator." As one poster comments, the account, quote, went from posting about mobile games to how

to 3D print SMGs to desperately asking people to pay attention what was happening in Myanmar. Then, after the FGC9 post, it was deleted entirely. Jay Stark never lived to see this. He would have loved it. Everything that he was doing, that was the main focus in my opinion. It couldn't be a more perfect, practical, actual realization of his project. You couldn't pick a more perfect version of it to happen like that, you know. And there's a lot of talk of, oh, well, there's a load of drug dealers in Amsterdam have FGC9s.

There was a Nazi recently arrested with one. You know, these people are awful, of course. But the most prevalent use of the FGC9, at least from what I've observed, has been from the rebels in Myanmar making them. I think that I've seen like 30 of them so far. You know, that's a lot of them. And there was one was found stashed in a bush. My theory is they're left around for ambush attacks in areas that are not as fully controlled

by the rebels. FosCAD, a community of mostly US-based gun printers, lost its collective mind. It didn't take long for people to make the connection between the post and the desperate plight of Myanmar's Spring Revolution. Soon after the post, Atat Madure started posting pictures of FGC-9s, often without sights, captured from fighters in Yangon. On the 21st of September, Atat Madur's Ministry of Information released a statement. Ai Miat Tuei and Ye Minch Ang were found with an FGC-9 Mark II pistol,

five rounds of 9mm ammunition. They were arrested along with their drone. The military alleged they were an urban unit from the same Generation Z Freedom Army that Zor was a part of. That same month, the military posted pictures of three more captured FGC-9s, suggesting that at least five have been captured by late September. Then, two months later, a new post popped up in the Foscad subreddit. Hey, I'm back! I'm the guy who posted a thank you note back in September here.

Now that the FGC9s are already known by the dictator, I can proudly announce that we're from Myanmar. Yes, we are mass producing FGC9s to fight back against the dictator. More info about our production will be published later. This time the user u slash daddy umcd hung around to answer questions. Those bastards didn't know we had the tech back then. Now that everything is in public, we can proudly say we're from Myanmar. We are mostly responsible for production and R&D,

even though we also involved in other ground missions. We distribute the FGC-9 to a lot of different urban guerrillas in urban and rural areas. Some of the units got arrested a few weeks ago, which you might have already seen on the subreddit. Apart from the FGC-9, there are other equipment and weapons that are being produced with 3D printers," he wrote. He said his team were residing in ethnic armed organization areas, mainly the Karen National Union and the Kachin Independent Army controlled zones. He posted that they'd tried other 3D printer designs, such as the Plastikov, which is a printed AK-47 receiver. But getting the other parts made it impractical. By contrast, the FGC-9

could be made entirely using a 3D printer and some hardware store parts. According to another source, Myanmar's small motorcycle repair shops made quick work of the metal barrels and bolts. Electrochemical machining was used to make more barrels. They also had the chance to buy a few Glock barrels from Thailand, that a UMCD said, but those cost a lot more than the FGC9 barrels. While his account continued to post, the military continued to share photos of captured FGC9s.

Three workshops that had been using lathes to make the barrels were raided, and photos of three more captured guns popped up in November. Alongside bolt-action rifles, it still had stickers on their stocks from what looked like US gun shops. Production in decentralized locations continued despite the raids. While other groups fought on with homemade revolving rifles, crude homemade wooden stocks, and other improvised weapons.

A telegram channel with instructions in Burmese on how to make the guns made sure that even when one shop or gunsmith was taken out of the fight, the knowledge wasn't lost. Although filament for their 3D printers was becoming harder to get, they'd stockpiled a lot in advance. Daddyumcd tried to manufacture automatic FGC9s and another printable model called Professor Parabellum Square Tubes at Machine Gun. But nothing else seemed as easy or as reliable as the FGC9. Of course, Reddit being Reddit, people questioned the veracity and utility of his posts. He responded, FGC9s are just part of the game because they could be produced with what we have at the lowest cost available.

Rifles are $4000 to $7000 USD at our border. FGCs are under $100. Rifle parts are 10 times more expensive than glock parts. To all those who are saying that these photos are sus, we don't want to blame your suspicion. If any of you remembered a thread I posted in September, you will remember that we are mass producing FGC9s, the ones in the photos you've seen were supplied by us.

There are many groups like this now. We do the main production, just like I explained in September. Then, Daddyumcd went on to thank the other members of the subreddit, claiming their active help was the only reason he and other revolutionaries have been able to overcome certain technical issues. We wouldn't be here without you guys, especially someone who shared with me the buffer spring and fire control group spring measurements," he said. By late November, photos of FGC-9s in the hands of fighters emerged, and they showed

sights this time. They had longer barrels and homemade suppressors too. The FGC-9s were apparently used by urban units for close-up fighting, and for the training of new fighters since they have essentially the same controls as an AR-15 or M16 rifle, both of which are common in Myanmar's rebel units. We have successfully streamlined a variety of techniques to produce FGC-9. 1000 plus, efficiently. Our primary forces are equipped with proper rifles. FGC-9s are for guerrilla warfare. We started using those in hit and run and special task force missions too. We don't share much about the missions to the public yet.

It will definitely come, and when it does, they'll be updated here. If I'm still alive, haha," wrote Daddy UMCD on the Foscad subreddit. Even with production in full swing, ammunition remained a problem. production in full swing, ammunition remained a problem. Although, some regions can produce 22 and 9mm at home according to Dada UMCD, the 556 can be purchased in large quantities at the border with Thailand, but it isn't cheap. Instead, the PDF relied on raiding police and military outposts, in the same way the EAOs had for years. 9mm is the most common centre fire pistol round in the world.

That's why deterrent dispense picked it for the FGC9. Seized weapons often only have a handful of rounds, but that's enough to kill a soldier and take his weapon. J-Stark might not have been around to see his invention used to fight tyranny, but Hammerhand thinks he would have been happier with the results. He would have been made up. I think that's everything he wanted to achieve. You know what I'm saying? That really is everything he wanted to do. Even the National Unity government, Myanmar's government in exile, has come around to at

least some of Jay Stark's ways of thinking. Calling to daddy UMCD, our Minister of Defence Minister, already promised about the right to bear arms at the first day of the revolution. Promises made by revolutionary governments are not exactly solid commitments, but it's not hard to see why a generation of kids like Zha forged by an asymmetrical conflict with a government that possessed a near absolute advantage in armaments might be committed to staying armed, even if they win.

At the moment, the future of their struggle is very much in doubt. Scrolling through Facebook photos of Zal and his comrades is a surreal experience. They look not just young, soldiers mostly look young, but they look like students, kids from some weirdly militarized university. Photos on Facebook show them sprawled out together in the grass, in chemo fatigues, bearing rifles, but each glued to their phones as they cuddle in together. Zaw and his girlfriend, who he described to us as the girl I love, fought alongside each other until January 7th of this year.

The battle that we started, she was coming within and as a happenstance, a weapon landed near her and it hit her leg so her bone broke. So she had to go to the hospital. 3D printed and homemade guns have helped, but Zha and his friends are still fighting against a modern military with planes, night vision goggles, and tanks. Despite this, more than a year after the coup, they're still fighting, and more soldiers defect to join them weekly.

It's hard to see what victory looks like. The cities will be another battle altogether. But in the jungle camp where Zaw Video calls us from, it's impossible to see what giving up might look like either. He's still fighting, his girlfriend is healing, and they're both committed to staying out in the jungle until they earn their freedom back or die trying. Have you ever looked into the night sky and wondered who or what was flying around up there?

We've seen planes, helicopters, hot air balloons, and birds, but what if there's something else, something much more ominous that appears under the cover of night, silent, unseen, watching? They may be right above your car late one night as you cruise down the road, or look like mysterious lights hovering above your home.

Drones. Or are they? We used the word drone because it was comfortable to other people. One minute it was there and one minute it wasn't. Oh, that is beyond creepy. Do you feel like this drone was targeting you specifically? Yes, absolutely. Listen to Obscurum, Invasion of the Drones

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Jon Stewart is back at The Daily Show and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with The Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondents and contributors.

And with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed? Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here? How goes lower?

I met Santi at a luau party in October. I'm Santi. Damien. Oh, it was bizarre. The guy just disappeared one day. Santi has been missing ever since. The hookup. What is that?

I'm solving a mystery through sex and haven't made a private dick joke until now? Like, no matter how hard I try, all roads lead to the hookup. You think it's causing people to turn aggro? I'm gonna rip your arms off and use them to- Yeah, that's... a word for it. This is such terrible representation, I'm so sorry. Poppers?

These aren't just... in me... poppers. Mama always used to say, God gave me gumption in place of a gag reflex. No. Not my psychiatrist didn't laugh at that one either. Listen to the hookup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I'm Mary Kay McBrayer, host of the podcast,

The Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told. Join me every week as I tell some of the most enthralling true crime stories about women who are not just victims, but heroes or villains or often somewhere in between. Listen to The Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Robert Evans and this is part four of Myanmar. Printing the revolution. And then once we got there we couldn't rest, you know rain, sun, whatever. Women as well. we were all like, dry.

When they came, when we were leaving, they were all like, very fair skin, beautiful. And then we went in and then everyone got tanned in the jungle. We were training all the time. You know, people in training camp were driven really hard. And the reason that we were all doing this is because of the men in our school as students and how much he has terrorized the public and the people. And that's why we have this morale and ability to get through the training and be able to wield weapons. Zor and his friends went into the jungle as students, programmers and kids.

Now they're fighters. They were tech savvy young people, he says. They grew up online. And that generational divide which the internet brought here came much later in Myanmar. It wasn't until 2011 that people really gained access to the internet. And with it, the new ideas and identities that it brought. Zor's generation are among the first to embrace global connectivity. And now, after having it taken away, they're refusing to give it up.

The start of the coup in February, the military, well Gen Z was organizing online, social media and all that. So, and they were kind of, I think this is from my experience, but I'm kind of organizing around like Gen Z is going to be different than the ADA generation because we have the internet and also we know more about the world and can communicate to the rest of the world. I think one thing that was big was that in 2008, it just took one video leaking out of the country for there to be big international repercussions. It's worth noting that when people in Burma talk about the internet, they mean Facebook. Phones come with a Facebook app installed, and it's sometimes exempt from data charges. For many people in Burma, using the internet means using Facebook. Zora and his friends are different from their parents in many ways,

not least in their perceptions of authority. This has led to a situation where the PDF, People's Defense Force units, are much less hierarchical than units of the Tatmadaw. So when we make decisions in our group, there is no master and student. There's no teacher and student, but the way that it works. There are people who are good. There are older people who are more trained.

And then there are new recruits, new people who just came in. So of course, the people who are there longer and know more about the situation have more voice when we discuss. So especially people who were there when we founded this group, there were only really eight people from when we grouped. So those eight people kind of discussed

on the bigger strategy. You know, we don't really vote. He says he wants to do it. He thinks it's good. There's seven of us we think is good or we support him. Or someone says, we don't really like that idea, then we don't do it. They try to achieve more gender equality as well. Although Zohr explained that in his unit, the women are not always the frontline fighters.

At the place there's no discrimination, you know, women and men were training whoever could come. But like on the battlefield, we don't use women that much on the battlefield. That one thing that we do know is that it's not really discrimination, but if women are with us together, we have a confusion about whether we need to protect them or we're just fighting with with them or they're fighting in front of us. And that there's one thing that is very different very different in terms of mentality.

We never take the women out really far into very dangerous fights. So often they're in the back as backup for supplies or things like that. But as you know, the military government, the military terrorists are very unethical. They don't follow the rules. So they're going to shoot whoever they see. So even if they're hanging back and they're sending medical supplies, they can still get hit. For Zor in particular, there's a lot at stake. After almost an hour and a half of talking, I asked about his parents.

I'd heard of retribution attacks against the families of fighters and wondered if he was worried about that. So mom and dad are both, they support me fighting against the military. They're very happy. Is that really wants to do CDM, but he can't run away because the military has taken his Mother and his sisters. He still has five sisters Yeah, they're all still in that military command their work there in the military stool schools

So it's very hard for them to run away. Yeah Right. He's dad kind of fact though. He really wants to leave the military, but he can't. So while so that the fact that I am there trying to fight against the military, he's very happy and but he tells me to be careful about my own life. They're supportive and they really want to come fight themselves, but they can't because of my sisters and my mother. So him seeing that I can do it is really wonderful for them. So his father, his other brother, and the other people,

three of them below him, they've all usually just lived together with his grandfather and stuff in the military compounds or near the military. So he really wants to call all the people that are still there, but they can't leave. This is what civil war does. It traps us in a situation where we can't make the right choice, even when we know what it is. And in many situations, it's pretty hard to discern right from wrong in the midst of so much violence. Zuo has been able to fight, but his dad is stuck fighting against people like his son, in order to protect his daughters.

Thousands of families across the country are divided in the same way, by circumstance or ideology. The military is something of a separate society. It has its own schools and its own culture. But ethnic armed organizations have not been close to urban populations either. And so whole new identities have been forged by Generation Z, while their families often struggle to abandon old certainties. As we record this, Zaw is still fighting. His girlfriend is still healing.

Every few weeks, a video of him and his friends pops up on Reddit or Facebook. They have optics on their rifles now and are taking long range shots at the Taatmadaw, who rely on iron sights. They shoot and reload like soldiers, and they laugh like kids. The Taatmadaw still controls the cities, but to move between them they have to travel in convoys at breakneck speeds. Using ambushes, mines, and knowledge of the terrain, E.A.O.s and the P.D.F. are able to deny the military access to large portions of the countryside.

Without a serious change in the conflict, it might stay like this for years. A report published this month detailed the attacks in the Karinie state by the Tatmadaw on churches, residential homes, camps for displaced people, which killed 61 in the month since Zah left the city. On Christmas Eve, in Pruso's township, they killed at least 40 civilians. Autopsies show some were gagged and burned alive. In recent months, the Tatmadaw has increased its use of airstrikes against targets that it deems legitimate. Ming Anh-Lang, the junta's leader, flew to Russia twice in 2021.

He was proclaimed an honorary professor of the Military University of the Russian Armed Forces. Quote, we are determined to continue our efforts to strengthen bilateral ties based on the mutual understanding, respect, and trust that have been established between our two countries. Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said at a meeting with the coup leader on June 22nd, we pay special attention to this meeting

as we see Myanmar as a time-tested strategic partner and a reliable ally in Southeast Asia and the Asia-Pacific region," he went on. Min Aung Hlaing was equally lavish with his praise, saying that he saw Russia as a friend forever. Myanmar relies heavily on Russian Hind Mi-35 helicopter gunships, transport helicopters, MiG-29 and SU-30 fighter jets and Yak-130 ground attack aircraft to carry out bombing raids and strafe civilians. All of these weapons systems have been seen more recently in the fighting in Ukraine. One prominent Burmese-Irish family, the Kyatongs, has helped the junta avoid an international

arms embargo using their global connections and a network of shady shadow companies. They have purchased helicopters under the pretense of using them for tourism and the oil and gas industry and handed them over to the Tatmadaw. They've also helped shuttle coastal radar to Myanmar, which the Tatmadaw used to track Rohingya refugees and provide cover for several aircraft purchases. To fund these arms purchases, the Tatmadaw has found willing markets for luxury goods abroad. According to Justice for Myanmar, since the coup in February 2021, the United States has

imported 1,565 metric tons of teak from Myanmar, using intermediaries to avoid sanctions. In the 2017-2018 financial year, the last year for which data is available, the government received $100 million U.S. dollars in revenue from taxes and royalties applied to the timber trade. In 2021, there were more shipments than 2018, offering the Tatmadaw the chance to make enough money to continue purchasing weapons to use against their population. The conflict in Myanmar remains complicated. It's easy to reduce the alphabet soup of rebel groups to E.A.Os and the P.D.F.,

but these groups and their motivations are diverse. Pierre explained to us that even within the Karen, there are deep divisions. Well, first you have to know that historically, the Karen rebellion that started in 1948, 1949, so quite a long time ago, was led by the Christian minority, okay, of the current people, because obviously that was the most Western educated people at the time. And so this elite kind of reproduced itself in the canoe without being,

the canoe is the current national union, is a democratic movement, but you know, elites tend to reproduce themselves. And so most of the leadership, let's say of the current national union and the current national liberation army was Christian. And so the Burmese junta, the Burmese junta, the Burmese military government

decided to use this to create a wedge between the current Christians and the current Buddhists, and sent monks to say, agitate and try to cause this split on religious grounds. And they succeeded in parts and succeeded to separate a part of current Buddhist that created the democratic current Buddhist army, DKBA,

which then allied themselves, of course, to the junta and to attack the KNLA and the Manor Plo, which of course they knew all the roads there and the defenses and where was the defenses situated, etc. And succeeded in destroying the capital of the Karen National Union in Manor Club in 95. So, that was the situation pretty much when I arrived. It was pretty hard. There was not so much territory anymore held by the Karen. And more importantly, they lost a lot of income because a lot of their income comes from tax

at the border that they can control. So yeah, that was the situation. Not every EAO has embraced the National Unity Government directly. After all, many of its members were enthusiastically running cover for the Rohingya genocide a few years ago. Many of the EAOs remain, technically under a ceasefire with the Tatmadaw, and the Tatmadaw knows that if it pushes too far into EAO territory, it risks provoking a full-blown response. The EAOs, meanwhile, have been aiding and training the PDF and still maintaining enough

deniability that Natat Madhah has not been forced into a confrontation. EAO-PDF alliances look different in different regions, and often realities on the ground bear little relationship to the backdoor diplomacy and official stances embraced by leadership and public. The war continues to have a huge toll on civilians. According to the United Nations, in total some 440,000 people have been newly displaced since the coup happened in February 2021,

adding to an existing 370,000 who had fled their homes from earlier waves of violence, and over a million people who had fled the Rohingya genocide. More than half the population of Kareni state has fled. Humanitarian access is hard. Much of the relief effort for displaced people occurs within local communities. Thousands of refugees are camping along the border with Thailand, which is defined by rivers. Initially, many people fled into Thailand, but terrible conditions in refugee camps led some of them to return to Myanmar.

Now, they wade across the river for international aid donations of food and water, but they can't bring themselves to stay in the crowded camps overnight. So they wade back to sleep on the Burmese side of the bank. The UNHCR, the High Commission on Refugees, has been unable to access camps in Thailand or Myanmar to check on the conditions. But it has urged the Thai government, which has been credibly accused of forcing people back across the border, to move people to better conditions further into Thailand instead of keeping them in camps near the border.

And here we find the unfortunate unfortunate unavoidable reality of the civil war in Myanmar. For all the uniqueness of aspects of the conflict, the innovative ways Gen Z militias have interfaced with older ethnic military forces, the 3D printed arms, et cetera. At the end of the day, this is another brutal, horrific conflict between large numbers of people who want to be free and a small number of people who want to be free and a small number of people who want to control them. From Myanmar to Armenia, Ukraine to Syria, Ethiopia to Iraq,

and beyond, the novelties of 21st century conflict don't change the fact that at the end of the day, each war brings with it what might be the truest symbol of our current age. Parents saying goodbye to their kids, Camps filled with desperate people fleeing violence. And governments all over the world willing to send nothing more than kind words and stern warnings. This is a postscript to episode four. It's not one that we'd been intending to record because it's not news that we'd ever hoped to have to share. But here we are. Unfortunately, we found out that about 10 days after we last spoke and a couple of weeks before we released our podcast, Zor died.

And he died in battle fighting with the Tartmador. He's. Really was, I suppose, an amazingly brave and courageous young man. And I think that his loss is one that reflects the realities of what war is, which is not great and glorious and exciting. It's young men and sometimes young women, young non-binary folks I imagine too, dying when they had no quarrel with anyone, when they just wanted to live their lives. Two years ago, a year and a half ago even, he was just loving the people he loved, having fun, being a kid, riding his motorcycle, speaking to his girlfriend on his phone, living a happy life. And then someone who had power decided they wanted to have more power and they decided that it

didn't matter how many kids had to die so they could have what they want. And he decided to say no to that and that's brave. And I think all of us would agree that what he did was right and morally courageous and that we would hope to be brave enough to do the same if the same thing happened to us. This one's hit me quite hard, honestly. And I know this is my job and it's happened, it's happened before and it'll happen again, but he was such a happy, polite, kind young man.

He never didn't pick up the phone. He never got tired of explaining stuff that we didn't understand. And he always answered our questions. There was nothing that was off the table. There was nothing that he wouldn't talk about with us. He was completely open. And yeah, we will miss him greatly. He died fighting the thing that we all have to fight, right? Fascism, dictatorship, totalitarianism, militarization. And yeah, we'll grieve his loss. Both Robert and I, we've just spoken on the phone. We found out because a contact of mine on the ground sent me a Reddit message with a link to a Facebook post.

It's very clearly Zorrin, no doubt about that. It names him, and unfortunately it also shows him dead. So we're not in any doubt that it was him who died. And we're not in any doubt that we will gravely miss him either. We both hoped to go over and record with him, to speak with him, to meet him. I'd spoken to him several times on video, sometimes just to chat, not even to record anything, just to chat, we just spoken. So yeah, that's the news that we hadn't hoped to end on. Obviously, though, this is the reality of war.

As the world is looking at the conflict in Ukraine, now I'd urge you to look at the conflict in Myanmar too. Another Russian bomb killed another nice kid who never had any quarrel with anyone, who just wanted to live his life and didn't want to live the rest of his life with a boot on his neck. So he decided to stand up against it. As you can probably hear in my voice, I'm quite upset by his loss. And will be probably for a few days. So I'm sorry to have to end this podcast on such a sad note. I'm sorry for his family who are now caught between the loss of their son

and trying to protect their daughters. I'm sorry for his girlfriend who's dealing with shrapnel in her own leg and now the loss of the person she loved. And I'm sorry for his comrades. They've said they'll go on fighting and I hope they do. And I don't think there's any point really pretending to be objective at this stage in the games and I hope they win. But I mostly just hope that like one day young men and women and everyone else just gets to live their lives without having to kill and die because ultimately no one should have to and no parents should have to bury their kids. So yeah, as much as we're all focusing on Ukraine and what's happening there is terrible, please don't forget Zor's comrades, please don't forget his legacy.

And please don't forget him. We won't and we obviously want to dedicate this podcast to him and what he stood for. So yeah, yeah. Thanks for listening. The more you listen to your kids, the closer you'll be. Find resources to help you support your kids and their emotional wellbeing at soundedouttogether.org. That's soundedouttogether.org, brought to you by the Ad council and Pivotal. John Stewart is back at The Daily Show, and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with The Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment,

sports and more, joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondents and contributors. And with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed? Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, man. What are you into?

I have the hookup. The hookup? The hookup for what? I'm solving a mystery through sex and haven't made a private dick joke until now? Poppers? Why are there so many poppers? All roads lead to... The hookup.

You think it's causing people to turn aggro? I'm gonna rip your arms off and use them to... Yeah that's a word for it. ["I Heart Radio App," by The CW, playing in background.] Listen to the hookup on the I Heart Radio App, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I'm Mary Kay McBrayer, host of the podcast, The Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told.

This season explores women from the 19th century to now. Women who were murderers and scammers, but also women who were photo journalists, lawyers, writers, and more. This podcast tells more than just the brutal gory details of horrific acts. I delve into the good, the bad, the difficult, and all the nuance I can find. Because these are the stories that we need to know to understand the intersection of society, justice, and the fascinating workings of the human psyche. Join me every week as I tell some of the most enthralling true crime stories about women who are not just victims, but heroes or villains. Or often, somewhere in between. Listen to the greatest true crime stories ever told

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.