It Could Happen Here - Degrowth with Andrew, Part 2

Episode Date: November 29, 2022

Andrew talks with Mia and Robert about what kinds of infrastructure degrowth would require and the beneficial changes (no advertising, long lasting products among others) we'd get from it.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadowbride. Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of fright. An anthology podcast of modern-day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons?

Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso as they explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart podcast,

Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app

or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into tech's elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech brought to you by

an industry veteran with nothing to lose. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts from. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, five-year-old Cuban boy Elian Gonzalez was found off the coast of Florida. And the question was, should the boy go back to his father in Cuba? Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him.

Or stay with his relatives in Miami? Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome back to It Could Happen Here, a show where things happen and people talk about it. Yes, in this present location, that's correct. Last episode, we spoke about the concept of degrowth and what it means to degrow, how degrowth as a movement came about, what inspired the critique that degrowth pushes and what degrowth means for those of us who live in the global south.

How we can go about imagining new and different paths to a better life within ecological limits. This episode, we'll continue in that conversation talking about what is essential for degrowth. As I discussed in the previous episode, degrowth is about striving for a self-determined life and dignity for all. It means an economy and a society that can sustain the natural basis of life. It means a reduction of production and consumption in the global north and a society that can sustain the natural basis of life. It means a reduction of production and consumption in the global north and the liberation from the one-sided western paradigm of development so that the global south can explore our own self-determining paths of social organization. Degrowth means an extension of democratic decision making to allow for real

political participation degrowth means that social changes organized and oriented towards sufficiency and self-sufficiency and ecological sustainability rather than a pursuit of a line go up, a pursuit of economic growth regardless of its impact on people and planet. And degrowth, of course, advocates for the creation of open, connected, and localized economies. There are several steps that need to be taken in order to achieve a degrowth society, achieve a degrowth world, to degrow. For one, I think that as Jason Hickel advocates in his book, Less is More, we absolutely need to put an end to the practice of planned obsolescence.

Whether it be in household appliances, in tools, in furniture, in computers, we need to shift away from this idea of products being produced to break down in a certain timeline and require replacement. down in a certain timeline and require replacement. I personally have witnessed

a lot of older technologies that continue to last to this day because they were invented before this whole practice of plant obsolescence really came about. We have a microwave that is like a decade older than i am

and it still works fine wow yeah and i mean in my own lifetime i've had to purchase multiple microwaves so it's it's ridiculous yeah this is always one of the things that i always thought like there is a real sort of like the the this how you, this is how you appeal to conservative people with this. It's just like, Hey, we're going to, we're going to, we're going to bring back like 1960s microwaves where everything is a dial

and it doesn't break ever. Yeah. I think, um, yeah, I think what's, what's missing in the conversation about deep growth is a lot of people like they assume because they reacted

negatively that everybody else will you know they kind of project their own reaction to others but i think political spectrum aside um or political charts or however you want been a map out the unmappable? I think that people generally, as I was discussing in the previous episode, want a good life and that requires qualitative changes far more than it requires quantitative changes. Of course, there are places where quantitative changes are needed to make certain things accessible to that population.

But we already overproduce a lot of different things. And a lot of overproduction is completely unnecessary because it is based in planned ops lessons in order to increase profits. profit and so that needs to once that is discarded i think people will have will best be able to access that quality of life because when you look at a lot of the sudden expenses that people have to deal with um you know your fridge suddenly breaking down your stove suddenly breaking down your microwave or your toaster suddenly breaking down and or your washing machine um i think in this year alone i've had to fix the washing machine three or four times um because it's just it constantly breaks down and when instead we can save that those resources save that time save that energy save that time, save that energy, save that money, just produce it in quality

for the first time. Putting an end to those deliberate manufacturing decisions and developing long-lasting modular products that can reduce our material and energy use worldwide. I think in a lot of cases cases we don't necessarily need more innovation you know i don't think we really need like a smart fridge i think we just need a fridge that works for decades without breaking down constantly yeah and like so much of the stuff that's sort of like nominally is supposed to be innovation is just how can we

make this product in such a way that we can sell consumer data about you from it exactly we don't need to do that we can simply not we can simply not exactly and speaking of things that we can simply not we can simply not exactly exactly and speaking of things that we can simply not we can simply not

assault our senses constantly with advertising because advertising just continues to serve this purpose of generating social divisions highlighting class divisions and manipulating people into consuming stuff they don't need. As a card-carrying member of Generation Z, I do not typically watch much TV. I used to watch TV because I'm the older Gen Z contingent, but with the rise of streaming services, which I do not use, yo-ho-ho, I just have to say about that, I have not watched much TV. But there are certain reality shows that I enjoy, like The Amazing Race. And so those tend to be shown on TV, or like Jeopardy. I like to watch Jeopardy. And the constant, deeply unfunny, irritating, annoying, loud, flashy barrage of commercials it's quite aggravating um honestly the golden age of commercials being funny was a long time ago and now it just hurts

one of the things that i mentioned that in um in the episode that we had done on the commons. One of the things that I, one of the positions I held even before I was an anarchist was my opposition to the advertising industry. To advertising. I can't stand advertising. Everywhere you walk, everywhere you scroll, everything you watch and listen to, it's all trying to sell you something. I would love to be able to go outside and not see ads all the time. I would love to be able to scroll through the internet without seeing ads all the time. And so getting rid of the advertising industry, getting rid of all these ads that are just

pushing us to consume more and more, and oftentimes just promoting a lot of really harmful societal ideas, you know, body image issues and alcoholism and a lot of our worst practices and a lot of really terrible things are being promoted through ads. And so, yeah, tear it down and watch consumers perish. Welcome, I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter? Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures.

I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America. supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez.

At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami.

At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jack Peace Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep

into the rich world of Black literature. I'm Jack Peace Thomas, and I'm inviting you to join me in a vibrant community of literary enthusiasts dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories. Black Lit is for the page turners, for those who listen to audiobooks while commuting or running errands, for those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge between the chapters.

From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge between the chapters. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Together, we'll dissect classics and contemporary works while uncovering the stories of the brilliant writers behind them. Black Lit is here to amplify the voices of Black writers and to bring their words to life. Listen to Black Lit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso as they explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

New episodes every Thursday. When you think about really the history of the advertising industry and how it came about, as a mass communication student, that's something that I would have spent some time looking into. Advertising really came about in response to this need that people had really, that companies had to get people to consume. Because in a lot of cases, people would buy something and a newer model would come out and they wouldn't really pay attention to it because, oh, well, I already have the thing.

I don't need to get another thing. But you can't run a profitable business that way. So they basically used advertising to push people to consume more. And so we need to get rid of the advertising industry. Another step we can take towards degrowth is to shift from ownership to use of fruct. Use of fruct is something that Murray Bookchin,

social ecologist, talks a lot about um in his book the ecology of freedom and it's essentially the freedom of individuals or groups in a community to access and use but not destroy common resources to supply their needs. The term usufruct comes from Roman property law, I believe, which would include usus, the right to use. Sorry, unfortunately, I did not take Latin. Yeah, fructus is the right to enjoy the fruit of one's property and abusus, which is the right to destroy one's property so use us, fruct us and abuse us and so use of fruct is really the combination of the first two

principles right to access and use and enjoy the fruit of commonly held property without you know the right to destroy it so that everyone can supply their needs so instead of and i mean two libraries are already a concept that exists around the world rather than a hundred people in a community each individually owning an electric drill um one person or rather one library can host or three or four electric drills and effectively serve everyone's need for a drill when they need it because unless you're a carpenter or really into arts and crafts you probably don't need an electric drill all the time another thing that would really help in our push towards degrowth would be getting rid of car dependency because the consumption of vehicles, the maintenance of vehicles, the maintenance of the infrastructure

that vehicles use, all of those things requires a lot of resources, you know, concrete and oil and gas and metals and rare earth minerals. And rather than forcing everyone to produce those things so we could consume those things, we can instead shift towards a walkable model for our urban environments so that people who do need to use vehicles in rural settings, for example, can use them and use them without causing unnecessary harm, contributing to unnecessary harm harm superfluous harm on the planet um getting rid of car dependency would also mean that fewer people would need vehicles and the vehicles that we the few vehicles that we do produce um can be shared in common to serve needs

that cannot be filled by bikes or public transportation systems. Another element of degrowth would really be the reduction of our energy material use through the transformation of our agriculture systems. It is true that we currently produce enough food for, I believe, 10 billion people. A lot of that food is wasted. A lot of that food doesn't reach people. It's really an issue of allocation and not necessarily production. But at the same time, that production is extremely harmful. It relies on a lot of damaging chemicals. It relies on the stripping of our top soils. It relies on the overuse of antibiotics.

It relies on the abuse of animals. The way that we currently feed the world is deeply unequal, extremely inefficient, environmentally degrading, and energy wasting. We cannot continue to treat our farms like factories. We need to find ways to feed ourselves densely

and compatibly with the living world. Scaling down to localized permaculture can help regenerative-based agricultural systems, community-supported agriculture, urban gardens, aquaponics, cultured meats,

aquacultures, and exploring other more traditional forms of food raising will need to be the route that we take. Already, we are killing our soils.

We are running out of the fossil fuels that the agricultural industry relies on. And if we continue along this trajectory, we have a big storm coming. We have probably the greatest famine the planet has ever seen on its way. If we do not aim to build food autonomy, aim to rewild our ecologies,

aim to reconfigure our consumption patterns, our food production and consumption patterns, to sequester more carbon, to allocate to more people to produce healthier foods um and really to recover the earth another important step we can take in degrowth would be to get rid of or to scale down to some especially destructive industries. There is, of course, agriculture. There's the fossil fuels industry, the arms industry, private jet industry, the automobile industry, the airline industries. All of these industries must either be slimmed down or gotten rid of.

Because as the pandemic has shown, very few of the jobs that are currently undertaken around the world are truly essential to maintaining the bare bones of life. And of course, we do need to reconfigure the way that we live, our ways of life, in order to reflect ecological limits. But even with that reconfigure the way that we live, our ways of life, in order to reflect ecological limits. But even with that reconfiguration, I think we know what industries needed and what aren't.

I always find it strange, and this is, I guess, a tangent. I always find it strange that politicians are celebrated for bragging about creating new jobs. When in reality, I believe, and really the vision was in the 20th century, that we would reach a point where fewer and fewer people needed to work and that we needed to work for less time. And so that really is part of the aim of the growth reviving that pursuit

reviving that goal because we have reached the point where we can um scale on the amount of time each person has to work scale on the amount of jobs that are necessary um if you've read bullshit jobs by david graber you'll see that a lot of particularly service economy jobs are practically worthless. And I actually saw a kind of funny video talking about how at this point

office culture is more of a religion. Yeah, it's so good. Yeah, so that going around making us around on Twitter, that was really funny. But yeah, we just move around a bunch of people, move around a bunch of numbers. If you've seen the show Succession, sorry, not Succession, Severance. If you've seen the show Severance, it's pretty much like an r slash anti-work type show

and so I think more and more people are coming to the realization that hey this kind of sucks the fact that we have to work this much so we need to reduce the amount of time we work the type of work we need to change the type of work we do so it's a quantitative and qualitative shift. These changes, these steps to scale down total energy use can be taken by a broad range of organizations, groups, mass movements, popular assemblies, unions, cooperatives, organizations groups mass movements popular assemblies unions cooperatives not waiting for the state but going beyond it i think we've seen by now i think if you have not seen right now you need to open your eyes the state is not doing enough or in some cases not doing anything at all to respond to these crises and we need to take it into our own hands to do so um i have a video in store um for december that as one of my patrons joked might have the alphabet agencies after me but um there are a lot of different

actions that we can take um to integrate degrowth to move towards a degrowth society, to degrow our economies. A combination of acts of confrontation and non-cooperation and prefiguration. Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures.

Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez.

Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami.

Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Ches Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jack Peace Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. I'm Jack Peace Thomas, and I'm inviting you to join me and a vibrant community of literary enthusiasts dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories.

Black Lit is for the page turners, for those who listen to audiobooks while commuting or running errands, for those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge between the chapters. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Together, we'll dissect classics and contemporary works while uncovering the stories of the brilliant writers behind them. Blacklit is here to amplify the voices of Black writers

and to bring their words to life. Listen to Blacklit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso as they explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds

and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. In some degrowth challenges, the dominant growth imperative. It's in the name.

It is intentionally subversive in its title because it requires us to think about how we can collectively organize the restructuring of our economy and the downscaling of energy and resource use worldwide to transition back into balance with the living world in a safe, just, and equitable way. Degrowth means striving for a self-determined life in dignity and abundance for all. Degrowth would mean liberating ourselves

not just from the ways that the growth imperative has shaped our technologies, education. Degrowth will require that we not just liberate ourselves from the ways that the growth imperative has shaped our technologies and institutions, but it demands that we also reconsider our education, our cultural norms and values, our identities, our mindsets, our relationships. It will be a massive shift what anarchists call a social revolution. But it's one that is worthwhile. As some degrowth advocates would say, worthwhile as some degrowth advocates would say it's degrowth by choice or degrowth by force once the use of degrowth has been used slightly differently um degrowth by choice being

like i described a collectively organized democr democratically managed, you know, restructuring the economy to bring into balance the living world in a safe, just, and equitable way. Whereas degrowth by force is more so a combination of austerity and apocalypse. So, up to you. Yeah. All power to the people. up to you yeah all power to the people so there's there's a japanese marxist named kohei saito who's been writing like a bunch of stuff recently who basically like he's been like probably the biggest voice of degrowth in japan and his book capital neanderthal scene is finally getting translated into English pretty soon. And so, yeah.

Oh, yeah. Check that out when it comes out. His stuff is really good. And he like basically has revived both Marxism and degrowth in Japan after Marxism is kind of like implosion after a bunch of weird. We don't need to get into the story of the collapse of the Japanese left, but yeah, that's coming soon. So check that out. Yeah, I'm looking forward to that book when it comes out. Yeah, me too. If you want to check out my videos on this topic and others,

just go to youtube.com slash andrism. You can also follow me on Twitter, while Twitter still exists, at underscore St. Drew. And you could potentially even support on Patreon, patreon.com slash St. Drew. That's it. Peace. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening.

You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow. lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow. Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of right. An anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso as they explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true

goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into Tex Elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech brought to you by an industry veteran with nothing to lose. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts from. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, five-year-old Cuban boy Elian Gonzalez

was found off the coast of Florida. And the question was, should the boy go back to his father in Cuba? Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home, and he wanted to take his son with him. Or stay with his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom.

Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.