It Could Happen Here - Dr. Maung Zarni on Myanmar’s Colonial Past and Post Colonial Future

Episode Date: April 19, 2024

James talks to Dr Maung Zarni about the junta’s colonial methods of rule, ultra nationalist Buddhism, and how to build a better future for a democratic Myanmar. https://forsea.coSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hi, everyone, and welcome to the show. It's me, James, today, and I'm joined by Dr. Mal Call zone media. forces of renewal Southeast Asia. Welcome to the show, Dr. Zani. Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you here. So, and also I should mention Nobel Peace Prize nominee as of yesterday or the day before. Congratulations on that also. Yeah, thanks so much. It happened in January before the deadline. And so I just released the announcement, you know, for the Burmese New Year, you know, occasion because, yes, you know, the country has been torn apart by, you know, armed revolutions, genocide, the racism, anti-Muslim violence. And so I thought like this may be a tiny sliver of positive thing

and so if activists want to have some sustenance for their grassroots revolution here's somebody who has been grassroots for 35 years so that's why I released it. But that's secondary.

Yeah, I know. If it can get the world to look at what's happening and pay attention, then I think it's a good thing. So one thing I wanted to ask you about today to start off with is something that when I talk to people in the US and the UK about the revolution and the coup in Myanmar, the context of like ultra nationalist Buddhism is one that is very hard, I think, for people who don't have a great understanding of how that works to understand. So I was wondering if we could start off with you explaining like this this long and uh painful history of like ultra-nationalist buddhism in in myanmar and how it's uh empowered the genocide of muslim people and also the the hunter today well when we talk about you know ultra-nationalism or various

strands of nationalism i think we need to periodize or put in different historical periods. Because the term nationalism was a Buddhist and also other people, but the majority political systems were built on the foundation of Buddhism in Burma, you know, like different kingdoms. But when we were under the British for 124 years, the internally warring Buddhist kingdoms, like Rakhine and Mon and Burmese and Shan, they're all like Buddhist kingdoms. And they formed this oppositional ideological identity as, you know, nationalist Buddhists that would confront the alien colonial British rule. So in that sense, you know, nationalism was not a bad thing at all because it was, know primarily for emancipatory struggle yeah but then like you know then fast forward post-colonial independence period 1948 onward right when when the british rule was removed at the end of the second world War, three years after, the oppositional Buddhist nationalist umbrella identity collapsed.

So the Rakhines want to foreground their ethnic city, given that the main oppositional commonality, colonialism was no more. And so that's when the ethnicity was re-injected into the ideological formation. And interestingly, as you would know as well, the end of the Second World War was followed by the Cold War, right? And on the one hand, like you've got, you know, godless, communist, atheistic Russia, Soviet Union, and then China. And then on the other hand, you know, essentially Christian West, you know, or at least allegedly Christian West. And in that context, the ultra Middle East, you would find like the rights of Muslim Brotherhood and, you know, what we call today fundamentalist Islamists, right? The Buddhists with ethnocentric orientation were encouraged by the United States through grants and aid. The same way the rise of fundamentalist Islam was encouraged or midwifed with the U.S. money.

encouraged or mid-Wi-Fi with the U.S. money. Because, see, this is important because through the eyes of the Cold War strategists, the only way that egalitarian leftist ideologies could be confronted was through this faith-based ideology. So I don't want, I'm not saying that the Burmese nationalists and ultra-nationalists were not responsible for their own growth, but I also, what I'm saying is that there was a larger global context in which this monster was hatched. Yes. And so, but even, you know, like going back to the 1930s after the Wall Street collapse, you know, then like, you know, the deep recession pervaded across the world and colonial economies like Burma with massive

agricultural export economy, the British found it expedient to basically turn to religious divide and rule. And like, you know, the Burmese Buddhist laboring classes were pitted against the Indian laboring classes of different religions. But that was more like the Buddhist nationalist, ethno-nationalist versus, you know, like what we will call today migrant laborers from India. Because we were part of the British Empire. After the British left, the Muslims began to be scapegoated. And then finally, I think we cannot understand, as you know very well, the nationalism or ultra-nationalism without some kind of political organization. without some kind of political organization.

And that organization is what we call Burmese political state. Whether it's controlled by the civilian elected politicians or the military as an organization, political states always there, whether it's fascism in Nazi Germany or Italy or Japan or like the genocidal Myanmar about 15 years ago. State was the engine, actually. It's not the people that were generating this toxic ideology. It's not the people that were generating this toxic ideology. It was the state that was inventing, manipulating, and mobilizing towards their sinister ends. Right, yeah.

And it's the divide and rule strategy and the fall, I guess, falling back to these kind of colonial methods of rule is something that I guess I want people to understand is still happening in Burma or Myanmar, right? We see the military, the junta doing it right now, right? Like attempting to ferment inter-ethnic conflicts to prevent the formation of a popular front or a coalition against their rule, right? Yes, I think here one observation I want to make is that independence from Britain, restoration of, say, a modern form of sovereignty to Burmese people, was not a clean break from the colonial past because the state in Burma as it exists or it has existed over the last 70 plus years remains a colonial state.

It was an instrument of economic exploitation or racialized or ethnicized administration. And all the security laws and ordinances and whatnot, they were formulated with the interest of the ruling colonial interests or power, like at the time British. And what independence did was really transfer of this internally racialized entity, we call state, from the white man's hand to the brown man's hand, you know, the Burmese. So the state wasn't actually finding it difficult

to foment racial or inter, we don't use the term race here, but inter-ethnic conflict or inter-religious conflict, the state itself embodied this divide and rule outlook because it remains internally colonial. You see what I mean? Yes. simply the policies of the XYZ regimes that have ruled Burma since independence, but the state itself is conducive to or supportive of this kind of inter-religious and inter-ethnic ethnic contest because there are no principles of equality as ethnic or religious communities. There was no sense of, you know, horizontal or vertical fairness among the political class and the majoritarian agrarian communities.

And so the state itself is problematic yeah that's why like you know the the when Aung San Suu Kyi came to um you know semi-power because the military still controlled or backseat drove her regime she found it really difficult to maneuver because she was straight jacketed in this you know internally colonial shell yeah yeah and then so so i think of course like you know you are correct uh what the military is doing now say in rakhine state uh where they committed uh genocide against Rohingya Muslims. They drove out close to 800,000 Rohingyas genocidally across the border to Bangladesh in 2017 and also 2016. They are now arming and training and forcibly conscripting able-bodied young Rohingya men into their ranks and to fight the progressively militarily stronger Rakhine Buddhist Arakan army. That's just one area. But, you know, if you look at other regions, like Shan State, for instance,

there's extremely complex ethnic uh contestations happening right so what like political scientists call like a horizontal violence is taking place and so it's like there are multiple conflicts at work you know but of, like the military is number one, you know, problem maker, but there are also lesser evil forms of like political and ethnic conflicts taking place. Hola mi gente, it's Honey German and I'm bringing you Gracias, Come Again, the podcast where we dive deep into the world of Latin culture, musica, peliculas, and entertainment with some of the biggest names in the game. If you love hearing real conversations with your favorite Latin celebrities, artists, and culture shifters, this is the podcast for you. We're talking real conversations with our Latin stars,

from actors and artists to musicians and creators, sharing their stories, struggles, and successes. You know it's going to be filled with cheese man laughs and all the vibes that you love. Each week, we'll explore everything from music and pop culture to deeper topics like identity, community, and breaking down barriers in all sorts of industries.

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Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how Tex Elite has turned Silicon Valley

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so join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines

everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzales wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother

died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, it's very much a chance date. I think particularly yeah, it's very much the case. Shan state is, I think, particularly complicated and interesting. As we look at the situation now in the different, like both in the liberated areas or the areas

without control of the like Naypyidaw state, they may still be controlled kind of in a sense by other kind of like pseudo states i guess are you familiar with this there's this argument i think it's probably like articulated i'm sure you are uh articulated like most notably by james c scott of like um and he looks at the example of myanmar has been rightly criticized in some areas of like the the mountains as an area where people can i guess choose to opt out of the state or or to be like where the state is not completely consolidated i guess and never has been yeah i know i know jim's work you know like the uh the he divides people into valleys and uh you know mountains yeah you know what's interesting is like you know. What's interesting is it's

a lot more complex than this dualistic understanding of hill people versus plain people because even in the hills there are highlands and there are plateaus and so There are, you know, highlands and there are plateaus. But also, I think like that, I find it more useful to look at this not through geographic lens, but through the colonial lens. Because you've got the colonial state. Because like, you know, Jim is essentially an anti-statist but as a matter of value yeah i i i am with him you know because i'm i'm bent on uh um the anarchism as my value you know but

analytically i think the the the given the fact that the the colonial state continues to live on and continue to haunt the Burmese society. I think like the way I look at it, it's like, you know, center and periphery, right? Yeah. Irrespective of the altitude. I mean, at this point, like altitudes no longer really strategically important because we live in the age of drones and like, you know, MIG-29s and F-16s. Mountains are no longer a cover.

You see what I mean, right? Yeah, yeah. The construct of the mountains as like non-state space or a place where you can go to choose to be non-state, I think like uh it's interesting to hear young bamar pdfs fighters now be like oh i chose to go to the mountains even

though it sits very much alongside that cannoli analysis that you had of like the uh the wild people or like quote unquote savagery right which or when i speak to bamar people who are like 21 now who joined the pdfs at 18 17 after the coup they had all been very much indoctrinated with the idea of non-bamar people as quote savages or wild people who lived in the quote mountains or jungles and like choosing to go there to escape the state i think is it's really interesting to hear like the that analysis reproduced in in their storytelling of their own lives yeah i mean i i think i think you know the it has been in the burmese political psyche uh you move away from the center and you are more autonomous and you are, you know, freer from the reach of the center, right?

Because we still have this center periphery mentality. Yeah, I mean, you know, culturally, yes, you're absolutely right. you're absolutely right uh the the way people in the center like the the group that i belong to burmese buddhist majority we look down on people that are on the periphery right that the way people address i mean it's also like you know the rural and urban divide as well yeah you know the the even like those who grew up in the uh in thejoritarian regions, what I call the peripheries of the Burmese colonial state, when they settle in Rangoon or Mandalay or major urban areas, they begin to dress – they begin to – I mean, they necessarily adapt to the Burmese way of life, the majority dominant customs and whatnot. So I still stick with this whole colonial relations, organizationally and psychologically. organizationally and psychologically. Yeah, I mean, also we have the vocabulary.

If you want to oppose a central state or the central regime, we say we take refuge in the forest, right? Yeah. And we take refuge in the forest or under the tree against the scorching sun or like pouring monsoon rain, right? Or the evil center, right? And so it's all built in. It's in the language. Even like organizing an armed revolt or going underground

is described as taking refuge in the forest, the jungle. And what's interesting, interesting though is like you know from the state's perspective if you're taking refuge in the in the jungle of course like that's treasonous and uh you know that is a uh an act of criminality. But if you use that language, or if you do exactly the same thing, literally, physically, if you're a Buddhist monk, you know, you are considered

holier than monks that continue to live in the city. You see what I mean? Yeah. So you go, you know, forest monks versus, like, city a city town or village monk. Right. So the,

the, this is quite a fascinating linguistic, um, you know, twist here on one hand, like, you know, but,

but from the revolutionaries perspective, if you are in the jungle, you grow certain aura around you. You are in the jungle, right? And you don't wear jeans or you don't look like city people, but you're wearing, you know, like the fatigue, army fatigue and, you know, jungle paraphernalia. And as a revolutionary, that's like Che Guevara type. You see what I mean?

Revolutions start or organize around jungles. You know what I mean? So it has nothing to do with altitude. You see what I mean? Yeah, yeah. It's just, I like that periphery colonial model. Hola, mi gente.

It's Honey German, and I'm bringing you Gracias, Come Again, the podcast where we dive deep into the world of Latin culture, musica, peliculas, and entertainment with some of the biggest names in the game. If you love hearing real conversations with your favorite Latin celebrities, artists, and culture shifters, this is the podcast for you. We're talking real conversations with our Latin stars, from actors and artists to musicians and creators, sharing their stories, struggles, and successes. You know it's going to be filled with chisme laughs and all the vibes that you love. Each week, we'll explore everything from music and pop culture to deeper topics like identity, community, and breaking down barriers in all sorts of industries.

Don't miss out on the fun, el té caliente, and life stories. Join me for Gracias Come Again, a podcast by Honey German, where we get into todo lo actual y viral. Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. time's unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people

in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. On Thanksgiving Day 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean.

He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez.

everywhere. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

So I wonder, like, I think people who listen to this will both be very much like amenable to anarchism and see the problems that state societies create, and also to the revolution in Myanmar, and to the young people people and then the not so young people who are fighting it. I wonder, like, how do we build a future for Myanmar that doesn't replicate this colonial core periphery model that doesn't, the sine qua non of the state that's centered in Naypyidaw is like the, it's this use of violence to control and this colonial relationship, right? So how do we not

replicate that in the post-revolution future well i think you know there's a danger in uh what should i say that romanticizing the mini states or sub-states right if establishing autonomous states does not confront the colonial nature of the state that they have been fighting. And to some degree of like success at this point in history right um that because the the coloniality is very much connected with the idea of pure ethnic identity you see what i mean yeah yeah and in this day and age i mean whether, whether you've been to Karen State and other places in Burma and in the Middle East,

Kurdistan, but there are always the idea of pure ethnic identity, even if you're a revolutionary. But the truth is even small places, you will find Muslims and Hindus even if you're a revolutionary. But the truth is,

even small places, you will find Muslims and Hindus and Christians or people with different migratory histories and class background, you flatten them into a single ethnic identity. That in and of itself, self-perception, we are a new Karen state or Karen state or Kachin state, right? Even Kachin, the term label, the label Kachin in the north,

you know, they have about like three or four major groups there, and some resent being referred to as Kachin, And some resent being referred to as Kachin, but anti-colonial identity against the British, when that common oppressors has gone home and then we start fighting each other. You see what I mean? Yeah. So number one, it's like,

you know, the, the is very, very important. These new entities do not define their political organizations along any idea of blood and soil. That's very, very important. Otherwise, we replicate what we fought against. And secondly, I think no military organization should control administrations. But at the moment, with the exception of the Korean National Union, most other ethnically organized armed resistance organizations in Burma,

organizations in Burma, when they set up administrations, you know, administrators are guys who are, you know, like carrying like AK-47 or some other weapons. You see what I mean? any ancestral region, what they need to do is they need to separate law and order maintenance from the defense. And the reason we have gotten into this bloody mess is because the military did not separate law and order administration as a civilian function from the national defense. So the current progressively militarily successful ethnic resistance organizations

have to demilitarize self-consciously and as a matter of policy their new administrations so these two things you know move away from blood and soil idea of identity and demilitarized and civilianized the administration yeah do you have hope like i find when I talk to, especially younger people in the PDF who are most people, like maybe it's easier for them to see the obvious colonial relationship and the way that these constructs have harmed them and prevented them from finding solidarity

with people of other ethnic groups. That's something that like, sometimes they will articulate to me, right? We were told these people were bad and evil and savage and they're not, and they're our allies in this fight against dictatorship. Do you think that that's replicated in the leadership of EROs? That idea that this blood and soil identity is something, or this blood and soil identity, I should say, is something that's been problematic and divisive and will always be so, or do you not see that replicated so much? Well, there is still the old conservative

orientations in these EROs with respect to two things. The acceptance of younger generations into policymaking circles, right? Yeah. And then the other one is half of the population of these ethnic communities have remained marginalized, and that is women. On one hand, it does make sense that men with guns and men with 50 years of revolutionary experience are going to play a leading role. But these guys have to make a conscious effort in changing their own value system, which is like, you know, bring in new generations with more progressive ideas into policymaking circle, leadership circle, and bring in women. And, you know, I wish I know more about the Kurdish revolutionary organizations.

My own very limited understanding is that, you know, gender equality, I mean, for the Islamophobic crowd, it might be quite shocking, but the Kurdish revolutionary organizations are you know much more gender equal yeah then like you know white democratic societies yeah that's right and I think their analysis if I can sort of um summarize like Apo's thought very is that colonialism begins in the patriarchal family and that the first colonized subject is the woman. And therefore, if we can't decolonize our familial and community relations, then we have little hope of decolonizing ourselves as a group or as a society.

So their analysis rests in the same place as yours does. And I think that there's, I think, increased solidarity and communication between the Kurdish freedom movement and the resistance movements in Myanmar, which I hope can only do good for that, especially with regard to gender relations. It was interesting to see the Kareni, KNDF Battalion 5, issued a statement which said that they had a long way to go in terms of gender relations, and they looked to the Kurdish model of the example of where they can get to, which at least it gives me hope that these things can,

it can get better. Yeah. I mean, KNDF is a remarkable, you know, organization, current national defense organization, right?

Kareni, Kareni. I mean, they are led by very progressive sort of like, you know, semi anarchist type young people. Yeah. You know, the ethnicity and gender discrimination are self-consciously avoided and discouraged.

Yeah. So basically, we cannot have a successful revolutionary movement just by trying to take power from the center. Revolutionary movement involves a shifting fundamentally the non-progressive values and outlooks, right? That is something that needs to happen. And that, in my view, is a deeply intellectual, psychological process. But I think that is happening. So that ideological progressive shift is going to hit the ceiling at some point because you've got old men in decision-making positions who haven't bought in entirely the need to shift their value system. And then partially it's not simply ideological. It's also self-interest.

simply ideological it's also self-interest when you're when you're the when you're the boss for 25 years you know you're a little like autocratic a tyrant you know i mean right yeah organization so shifting the uh you know giving women and younger generation spaces me you know you shutting up 50 of the time and letting the other you know people speak 50 you know like there are no no more like monologue for one hour you see what i mean so even like you know the air time you have less air time that's like you're less that's your self-interest your air time you know let alone economic and other interests this is just like talking in the in in in a meeting you see what i mean i've been through like some of some of the meetings and stuff and so you know like guys think that only they have

important things to say and you know especially military matters or big items okay like women talk about welfare of children and uh you know widows kind of shit yeah yeah this this very sort of still like like separate spheres gender model that i know yeah i have hope for the young generation but um i remember one of the guys i met he told me that like um he said he said like three years ago i had some gender problems and i i didn't understand what he meant he was like i thought that women couldn't do things that men could do and now i realized i was wrong and they were telling me that the police wouldn't there was a there was a taboo to walk underneath a woman's uh laundry yeah so yeah so they hung them around their protest camps when they were in yangon fighting the police and then the police wouldn't come in so they were like oh this is

when i realized that sexism hurts everyone so i think it's yeah we i have hope for that generation i think it's uh it's been one of the things that has given me so much hope for the world in general, as I've been covering the revolution in Myanmar, is to see people reconstruct and change their identities in a progressive and inclusive way. And people in this country and the UK as well are so stuck in their sort of regressive identities. And to see young people there acknowledge that sexism homophobia these these racist and inter-ethnic uh like hierarchies are damaging everyone has it's given me a great deal of hope for the future yeah i i share your optimism and then part of it is you know the the the progressives or people or younger people or like older people with progressive outlooks.

I mean, everything is constructed. You know, like if you change the material situation in terms of, you know, who's making decisions or the, you know, under what conditions decisions are made. I think that people are able to shift their thinking. You see what I mean? I mean, and so, I think, like, definitely, like, political leadership is very important, you know

what I mean? I don't believe in this, like, a vanguardist idea of, like, a group of men, you know, guiding the herd, right but but at the same time i think like these older men should meet the younger generations halfway yeah and i'm not saying like okay all right you know like you know like don't trust anyone above 40 because I'm 60, so I still want to be trusted, right? But yeah, I mean, I'm 60 and I can take shit from an 18-year-old junior friend or colleague who tell me you're full of shit.

And here's the reason. I listen, right? So I assume like other people my age, my generation would be able to uh do the adjustment right and especially for the better and the but but i think that's it there are there are really articulate young people and women yes who whose voices need to come to the fore. Like, you know, like people, the people, I mean, like we, we don't live in isolation anymore. Like in the 1960s and 70s and 80s, Burma was very isolated. And so, you know, and so the ideological currents did not reach

within the Burmese society. So the type of religion or religions, I mean Christianity, the type of Christian practices, outlook, whatnot, remain extremely conservative compared with even a conservative Christian country like USA. Yeah. But now we live in the social media internet age. And so, you know, young people, you know, use the, the, the term like intersectionality, you see what I mean?

Yeah. They start to see like race, class, gender, and other issues, you know, like inter intersecting and then producing or reproducing or ending like, uh, different forms of uh you know repression and you know exploitation and whatnot we still have a very very long way to go we can shift but that's not not to say that you know we should feel like discouraged you know right but we we we we won't see instant changes. No.

Yeah. But I think over time, yeah, I have a deal of a great deal of optimism for the future of Myanmar. Dr. Sonny, that's this, um, it's been really great talking. Where can people, especially people who are interested in your work and in the future of Myanmar, how can they follow along with your work and with these struggles to create a more equal and just and democratic in the non-state sense, Burma? I mean, well, I mean, I use social media, especially like, you know, Facebook a lot.

And I began like consciously writing in Burmese language because I don't need to inform the world because the world know the shit that's going on in Burma. And so I think the my Facebook's OK. English or even like, you know, other languages, you know, our own mother tongue, the forces of renewal, Southeast Asia, 4C.co, it's a good platform. We encourage and actually we seek out, you know, very radical ideas in multiple languages like Burmese or Chin or Karani or whatever language they want to use. We don't censor anyone. They can say anything as long as they're not advocating fascism or violence or like, you know, things like that. And so, yeah, I encourage to take a glance at our Southeast Asia network of anarchistic activists and scholars. Yeah, yeah, it's a great website.

I'll include a link to it in the description. Thank you so much for your time this evening. We really appreciate it. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening.

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slash podcast awards. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into tech's elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech brought to you by an industry veteran with nothing to lose listen to better offline on the iheart radio app apple podcasts wherever else you get your podcasts from