It Could Happen Here - Exxon Mobil's Evil Scheme for Guyana

Episode Date: May 12, 2023

James and Robert sit down with investigative journalist Amy Westervelt from Drilled to discuss the successful legal challenges to Exxon’s high risk drilling operation in Guyana.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. Oh my goodness, it's It Could Happen Here, a podcast about things falling apart, putting them back together, and the Sisyphusian task of occasionally trying to stop them from crumbling as fast as they otherwise would. I'm Robert Evans, who is not great at introducing this podcast. I'm joined with James, who is better at introducing this podcast, but I strong-harmed him out of it. Not true. Well, we'll let the audience decide. So, James, today you and I are here to talk to a journalist

that we both like quite a lot, Amy Westervelt. Amy is the host of a podcast called Drilled, which focuses on shady stuff done by the oil and gas industry. And particularly, we're talking about season eight of Drilled, which is focused on what Exxon is doing in a South American country called Guyana. And it's a really fascinating story. There's a lot here, including kind of the way in which oil and gas companies move in and in a kind of predatory way, create contracts with smaller countries that don't maybe have the legal resources to set themselves up as well as

they otherwise would, that don't have kind of the long basis of environmental law rulings that like areas that have been, you know, used for by the oil and gas industry for longer periods of time have. And kind of the fight by activists in that country to wrest control back from Exxon and a bunch of other stuff besides. Amy, welcome to the show. I think that's enough of an intro from me. Hi, thank you. Thanks for having me. Yeah, Amy, I'm curious, kind of what got you started thinking about and focusing on and really digging into what's been happening in Guyana? Because obviously this is, you know, the oil and gas industry is a topic of concern for most progressives. But people tend to focus on, you know, kind of the Permian Basin, the Gulf of Mexico, obviously the Middle East, these places that are kind of seen as

traditionally more the breadbasket of the oil and gas industry. Yeah. Yeah. I started looking at Guyana because I follow a lot of Exxon's shareholder briefings and reporting things like that. And I kept seeing them talking about the project in Guyana and just like the projections kept increasing so quickly. And it got to a point where I was like, hold on a second. They are projecting that this is going to be producing more than the Peruvian basin by 2025. And this is a country that shipped its first barrel of oil in 2019. That's incredible. Kind of unheard of that something would happen that fast. So, and I happened, like just so happened to have had a friend years and years and years ago in San Francisco who, who like helped do, I don't know, like marketing for the tourism board in Guyana and was constantly telling me about how Guyana was this amazing ecotourism destination. So I had this, so I had this, like this idea of Guyana in my head is like ecotourism central.

And then I kept seeing all of these updates around drilling there. So that's kind of what initially got me interested. And then I got a press release about a lawsuit being filed there by an attorney who was trying to kind of stop the oil drilling. So, yeah. Yeah. And this attorney has a pretty interesting backstory herself, right? She does. And that was also very interesting because she actually was in-house counsel for BP. Yeah. Deepwater Horizon folks. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So she grew up in Guyana. Her family left when she was around 12 or 13.

There was quite a bit of political unrest in Guyana, spurred like so many places by DAA. And gosh, like the history of Guyana is really interesting. But anyway, so there was a lot of political unrest. Her family felt a bit unsafe. They left. They went to Zambia and Trinidad, and then you wound up going to school in England,

went to Oxford, you know, has this like very posh English accent now. And then at one point decided, you know, she was working for BP and traveling all over and just kind of got fed up with it and wanted to move back to Canada. So she moved back, started working for a corporate law firm there to get very interested in environmental laws, because at the time, the country was just starting to write its first environmental laws. This was like mid-90s-ish. Yeah, and one of the things you make a point on in the podcast

that is really interesting is, you know, I grew up in Texas and I had a lot of friends from the Permian Basin. And you don't think of it, and you don't think of the Gulf as like an area of strong environmental regulations. And if you've spent any time swimming in the Gulf of Mexico, you certainly don't feel that way, but it actually, I mean, it is not, not, which is not to say that they're strong enough, you know, it's not to say that they are sufficient, but it's, I mean,

and it's not just that there's stronger regulations there and the regulations are largely a product of how long people have been taking gas out of oil, out of the ground. But it's also that because it's got a century or so of being utilized by the industry, there's a level of institutional knowledge built up about how to do it relatively, which number one speaks to how inherently dangerous it is because the Deepwater Horizon disaster happens right in the heart of this area. But it also means that when you've got a company like Exxon starting work in a place like Guyana, they don't have any of that built up kind of competence or expertise in sort of dealing with these problems.

Yeah, that's right. You don't have kind of the heavy bench full of experts just know, experts just hanging out looking for jobs. You don't have the disaster response expertise in case of a spill, for example. And you also don't have the regulatory oversight expertise, which has been a huge problem in Guyana. They got a grant from the World Bank at one point. This was also super controversial. Yeah, this was really interesting to me. Yeah. Yeah. It was right before the World Bank issued its whole, we're not going to recommend fossil fuel development as much anymore kind of pronouncement. they sort of fast-tracked this grant to guyana to

create and grow like a petroleum regulatory department in its epa because they didn't like it didn't exist before um so they started to build that out and um but you know it's almost like they're building the regulatory apparatus as they're starting to drill so you can imagine like how well that's gonna go i think you said in your podcast like they dropped this hundreds of pages like environmental risk report and it got approved the same day that they received it right that's right yeah it's like stamped like the date of receipt and the day of approval are stamped on the report and it's the same day so there's not a lot of oversight happening hey some people are speed readers amy you know you got a whole team they spend all that

world bank money on speed reading courses yeah yeah, really moving it up. Yeah. And a lot of Adderall, I'm going to guess. They're very focused over there. Yes. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, they, um, I actually talked to, I actually talked to this guy who ran the EPA in Guyana like the first couple of years that they were producing oil. And he had formerly worked for the Department of Energy in the U.S. and was trying to set up like real oversight. And like his recommendation was that they have an EPA staff member actually physically on the production Bethel at all times,

which like, yeah, no one was into. So that guy got fired. Yeah. Great. So maybe talking about like the legal panacea of Texas and like the different system in Guyana would be a good way to segue into talking about this this like rights-based approach that they used to I guess ultimately try and ensure some kind of responsibility was taken by uh the oil companies can yeah yeah do you want to explain that for people

in terms of like the right to a healthy environment yeah I think it's very yeah it's really interesting it's super. So Melinda Jinkie, this lawyer who used to work for BP from Guyana, moved home, starts working on these laws. She helped to write the country's first kind of Environmental Protection Act, which established its EPA. And then in 1996 and again in 2003, there were some revisions to the constitution. So in early 2000s, she worked on getting a right to a healthy environment integrated into the constitution, which basically just says, you know, every citizen has the right to a livable environment for themselves and for future generations. So that actually opened up the ability for citizens to sue the government over this oil drilling project. So there's a couple of people who are doing that, and they are arguing that

the government is violating their right to a healthy environment by not just permitting this offshore drilling but doing it in this really kind of reckless way where they're sort of rubber stamping permits they're not really providing any oversight exxon like brags constantly about how this project is like you know we've done in five years what usually takes 10 i asked them i was like oh is there like a new technology or like a new drilling approach or something and it like the answer is is you know more or less boils down to a very quote unquote collaborative government so um oh dear you know oh boy yeah that, boy. That's good. No need to dig into that.

It's the Zuckerberg approach. You move fast, you break things. Yes, totally, totally, exactly. And the Guyanese government has this idea, I think, that, well, they've actually said this out loud a few times. that well they've they've actually said this out loud a few times that um like net zero is uh you know commitments to net zero is sort of like their timeline you know where they're like okay well you know everyone wants to get to net zero by such and such date so we need to get oil out of the ground as fast as possible and sell it yeah so that we can meet that zero right that's six to go and so um and because of how um really crappy the contract is for anna they are kind of incentivized to do that as well because

the faster they can um get oil out of the ground and sold the faster they might be able kind of get to a place where actually getting sort of their promised share of the oil money so they they're incentivized to move fast and kind of look the way on on stuff i mean there's the first two years of that project exxon talked publicly about the fact that a pretty key piece of equipment on the boat was um broken for two years two years that's cool yeah um and again it's like a it's an offshore deep water drilling project this is like the most risky type of oil drink there is. There's an enormous amount of pressure at that, you know, level of depth of the ocean. It's exactly the sort of situation that deep water spill happened in. And a lot of like similar kind of approaches to

maintenance and safety happening. So yeah, not great. Welcome. I'm Danny Threl. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. with supernatural creatures. I know it. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time.

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musica, peliculas, and entertainment with some of the biggest names in the game. If you love hearing real conversations with your favorite Latin celebrities, artists, and culture shifters, this is the podcast for you. We're talking real conversations with our Latin stars, from actors and artists to musicians and creators, sharing their stories, struggles, and successes. You know it's going to be filled with chisme laughs and all the vibes that you love. Each week, we'll explore everything from music and pop culture to deeper topics like identity, community, and breaking down barriers in all sorts of industries.

Don't miss out on the fun, el té caliente, and life stories. Join me for Gracias Come Again, a podcast by Honey German, where we get into todo lo actual y viral. Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. or wherever you get your podcasts. Now, I wanted to talk a little bit, one of the things that you kind of open up the series with that I found very, very intriguing,

and it's something I've heard from other journalists in the same beat as you, is that when you start work on a project that focuses on Exxon, some peculiar things start to happen. And nothing we can say for certain is tied to ExxonMobil. That's right, yes. But yeah, you do notice some weird things.

I wanted to chat a little bit about that because it does scan with other things I've heard from other folks. It's true. It's true. And I report on all of the oil companies. And none of them particularly like journalists, especially journalists. And they, you know, will kind of do the usual thing of sending you nasty emails or refusing to have their executives talk to you and it's like that.

But with Exxon, every time i'm working on an exxon story it's just like you know if i'm traveling all my travel plans get canceled there's always just there's always just weird stuff that happens like you know you start to feel like being watched and followed a lot. And, and yeah, it's super not just me that has had that experience. I know that everyone I know that has reported on them has said that's definitely like there's, you know, just a kind of an intimidation thing that they like to do. I actually was surprised that, that Steve Call, who wrote the book private empire about exxon said to me and i have this in the podcast too that he is you know reported on al-qaeda and reported on the cia and if he's ever like disappeared he told everyone he knows that

it's probably exxon so um so yeah yeah then and that definitely happened on this project too like we um my hotel room got canceled hotel room also got broken into um yeah and and it was one of those where it's like i had cash on the nightstand it was still there but like my computer was open with like certain files open like that. And I don't keep like, you know, sensitive files on my laptop and even in my hotel room, but it was definitely like, okay,

this seems very pointed. And yeah, it's intimidation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Normal and good and i know no people always ask me they're like are you afraid of getting sued by exxon and i was like well i

guess if i had assets i would be afraid not the suing that's the most concerning thing yeah exactly exactly yeah but like i wonder i was really interested in i get this legal approach which is very successful in guyana right um if we compare that like if we come back to the united states uh and i know there's a court case i think it was like it was i'm pretty sure it's boulder colorado I might be wrong, but it was somewhere like that where they tried to sue oil companies for causing fires, right? Yes, there's a climate liability case there. And it's still going, actually.

It's still alive. They just got a move in their favor at the Supreme Court. Because, yeah, the case in the U u.s is a bit different right where we don't have this constitutional right to like a healthy environment and i'm sure don't yeah yeah let me tell you although actually guess who does have that in the u.s the montana montana yeah the state of montana yes and so there's like there's a case there actually that's invoking their state constitutional right which is very interesting there's this um a lot of people don't know this about kind of the the the northern western part of the country uh you know mountain west montana is it's not really the pw but it's the mountain

west which is that they had especially kind of in like the 70s and 80s, this weird history of like Republican governors, I think into the early 90s, like Republican state leaders who were also because I guess our national discourse wasn't so inherently toxic, really progressive in bizarre ways. Probably the best governor Oregon ever had was a Republican who's like one of his chief accomplishments was he made all of the coastline in Oregon, both like lake and river coastline and the ocean coastline public property. He like set it up so that it's regulated like highways basically so that no one can own private beaches. Now there's some little janky ways kind of around aspects of that. But like as a general rule, it's a really positive thing. And it's like not what you would expect from a Republican.

And I think the same thing is true of that law in Montana, where it's just like you used to be able to have Republicans. I mean, like Nixon created the EPA, right? It just didn't used to be the same kind of partisan that it is today. used to be the same kind of partisan that it is today even like um in the early trump era there were a decent number of republican folks who like specifically opposed drilling in bear's ears or like uh demonetizing the bear's ears thing was interesting wherever they went hunting or something yeah 100 was like yeah yeah uh because we uh i was like the outdoor industry that stopped doing trade shows in utah because utah was gonna the governor of utah supported demonumentizing

it a lot of their like quote unquote hook and bullet people were like yeah fuck this it's bad uh yeah i mean it's the same i think it's in the same category as like john mccain having a good take on torture right where it's like yeah i mean they like John McCain having a good take on torture, right? Where it's like, yeah, I mean, they live right there. Of course, they don't want it destroyed. But everybody's okay with, you know, poisoning the Gulf or, you know, the stuff that the Coke Industries was guilty of having like fucking pipelines full of holes running under towns that then explode. Yeah, exactly. fucking pipelines full of holes running under towns that then explode right yeah exactly exactly and that is actually like the number it's like the number one thing that gets people on and on

board with environmental regulation is like having something happen in their community where they're like wait a minute this doesn't seem fair um same with pennsylvania like people were really into fracking until it became like wait so if my neighbor has a lease and that lease ends up poisoning my well I have no recourse yes that's how it works welcome to America yeah yeah yeah now, I mean, they're all like, actually, there's there's towns in Pennsylvania now that are speaking of the rights based thing that are invoking home rule and baking rights of nature into their charters. And these are like pretty conservative districts, too. And the whole reason they're doing it of more local control over land use decisions. Yeah. Yeah. Which is probably is probably i'm sure a mixed bag to some degree exactly because you could imagine that going in a bunch of different ways yes yeah yeah like school board level shenanigans exactly yeah right now it's like to get rid of fracking

waste sites but it could easily be yeah we don't want any i don't know integrated schools here for example yeah yeah yeah um exactly yeah i wonder like it's different in the u.s in the sense that like uh i've understood right this this case in guyana went to the Supreme Court of Guyana, right? And is that right? Several. So Melinda has now filed seven different cases. She's very busy. And most of them have wound up at the high court of Guyana, which is their Supreme Court.

They just had a big verdict in another case that she filed, which is really interesting and potentially a huge game changer for oil drilling kind of around the globe. So in the environmental permit that Exxon had to get in order to start drilling offshore, it is laid out as a requirement of that permit that they have to have insurance policy from an independent insurer. So they can't self-insure, which is what oil companies usually do.

They all have like their own insurance companies to insure their projects. Yeah, it's great. It's bizarre. But anyway, so it really, it stipulates an independent insurance company and an unlimited parent company guarantee. That's really, really huge, because basically in Guyana, as in most other places that they're operating outside of the US, they use like a local subsidiary that has very few assets. So they have SO Exploration and Production Guyana Limited, which is worth maybe $2 billion on paper. And so it's very handy for them to, if something bad

happens, then the subsidiary might get drained, but the parent company is protected. It was actually written into their permits. They had to have this unlimited guarantee that they will cover whatever damages, which is important because in all of the environmental impact assessments, Exxon's own environmental impact assessments, they're saying if there were a well blowout, which is like what happened with deep water,

it would hit up to 14 different caribbean islands plus various countries in like the northern coast of south america so like a really big problem and these are mostly countries that rely on tourism and for their economies so um the argument that melinda made was, because the government has been lacked in regulation and now they haven't required this guarantee, you're opening up the citizens of this country to risk. Because if there's a spill like this, these countries could come to Guyana asking to be paid for damages and um we're not able to and now you've like taken you know Exxon paying for it off the table so um anyway the judge in their favor and said yeah you're right Exxon you need to have this in writing within 30 days oh wow um yeah it's incredible. I mean, that could really make, it would change the math considerably for this project. And I would say most other projects

that they're working on. The EPA and Exxon were sort of like co-defendants in this case. The EPA is appealing. Also, like just by the way, when your EPA is a co-defendants in this case epa is appealing also like just by the way when your epa is a co-defendant with an oil company there's something very wrong yeah they might not be doing the p part yeah exactly so they're appealing and you know there's a lot of government corruption and stuff going on so we'll see we'll see what happens but this judge everyone was like i was talking to a journalist that we've been working with there and she was like yes everyone's very worried for his safety because like this this was a big deal and he really i mean in like the most prim and proper legalese possible he repeatedly was like epa why are you just being exxon's bitch it smelled like bitch in here what's going on

it was like it was like a real like whoa bomb of a ruling so um so yeah that's a big win the constitutional case is still um they're still waiting for a ruling in So, yeah, that's a big win. The constitutional case is still, they're still waiting for a ruling in that case, but that's also the Supreme Court that will be ruling on it because it's a constitutional argument. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Talking of being people's bitch, it's probably time for us to hear from our advertisers. Ah, yes. Great, great, great move, James. Thank you.

Yeah, perfect. You laid it up and I just dunked it. It, yes. Great, great, great role, James. Thank you. Yeah, perfect. You laid it up and I just dunked it. It was good. These advertisers, none of whom were in any way involved in the oil and gas industry. Excellent. We actually can't promise that, but you know, pretend we can. Yeah.

Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter? Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters, to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network,

available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hola, mi gente. It's Honey German, and I'm bringing you Gracias, Come Again, the podcast where we dive deep into the world of Latin culture, musica, peliculas, and entertainment with some of the biggest names in the game. If you love hearing real conversations with your favorite Latin celebrities, artists, and culture shifters, this is the podcast for you. We're talking real conversations with our Latin stars, from actors and artists to musicians

and creators, sharing their stories, struggles, and successes. You know it's going to be filled with chisme laughs and all the vibes that you love. Each week, we'll explore everything from music and pop culture to deeper topics like identity, community, and breaking down barriers in all sorts of industries. Don't miss out on the fun, el té caliente and life stories. Join me for Gracias Come Again, a podcast by Honey German, where we get into todo lo actual y viral. Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how tech's elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you

love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough, so join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com.

Ah, we're back. And continue to be blameless uh um all right let's uh should we move on to talking about um we chatted a little before this started and one of the things that kind of is is perennially on um or perpetually on our our our beat uh, our beat is different laws and, uh, and rules and attempts around the world to crack down on the ability of people to protest and exercise dissent. Um, which you have some, some, some thoughts on, and also some, some information on kind of the way in which the, the oil and gas industry is tied to a lot of these, uh, legal kind of assaults. uh yes legal kind of assaults yeah yeah yeah they are uh very into cracking down on protests and the thing that i think is really interesting right now is that you have the fossil fuel industry on the one hand working behind the scenes to you know the american fuel and petrochemical manufacturers

which is the lobbying group for like coke Industries and a bunch of oil companies and all of that. They helped to write sample legislation in the wake of Standing Rock to pass around all of these Republicans that would increase the fines associated with protests and jail time. And they also did a lot to try to um broaden it out to include organizations so you know any anyone any organization being to organize or plan protests can also be fined um in kansas they included a rico charge in that so you know they're trying to make protests organized crime yeah um but at the same time that they're doing all of that stuff the number one argument that the fossil fuel industry is making in all of the climate cases against it in the u.s is a corporate free speech argument and that is

like it's terrifying so actually and you mentioned b before. Yeah, there's been there's like 24 ish of these cases where towns or cities or states are saying, hey, it's really expensive for us to adapt to all these climate risks. And it would be less expensive if the oil and gas companies hadn't kept everyone from doing anything about this for the last 40 years. Therefore, they should pay some portion of the cost. That's like the basic argument. And the oil companies for the last three or four years have been saying, you know, oh, you're trying to get around federal law by bringing these in state court and these cases belong in federal court. The Supreme Court finally declined to hear that argument. The Department of Justice was like, they can stay in state court. It's fine. So that argument is sort of dead in the water, but they've already started with like their next attempt to

get these cases to the Supreme Court. And it's this free speech argument that they've been making, which basically says, look, anything we've ever said about climate change was in the interest of shaping policy. That makes it political speech or in like legal words, petitioning speech and therefore protected by the First Amendment. Now they're saying in these cases, our First Amendment argument is foundational to our arguments. Therefore, these can't be in state court. State courts can't rule on on like key First Amendment issues. united and this supreme court that's very very scary because yeah yeah you know they're talking about blurring that like they're basically saying like lying can be free can be protected if it's in the interest of shaping policy a particular way um yeah it's fine if we're okay with lying if it's good for us yeah which is you know is my attitude whenever i'm pulled over by the police but probably probably oil and gas companies should be held

so you can see why it's like bad but like really for everything very bad if that gets said um yeah so yeah they're doing that at the same time that they're trying to limit individual free speech. And I think that parallel is, well, a not accidental, but very, very gross and disturbing. Yeah, very much so. Like, I think it's interesting. Yeah, they're trying like they very clearly see this Supreme Court as like the the the one to go for it. Not that it's going anywhere anytime soon, I guess. Didn't Amy Coney Barrett's dad, wasn't her dad like a chef?

Worked for Shell. Yeah. Yeah, he worked for Shell for like 20 years. He sure did. Of course, because there's a class thing happening. And she never recuses herself on any of these cases ever. Also, Alito, I think it's Alito, has stock in ConocoPhillips so that's cool that's cool

you'll probably find out that clarence thomas owns an oil rig yeah i was gifted to him by someone yeah a dude with a nazi statue yeah yeah so yeah i i think it's um it's and and i mean they they have said out loud in multiple places that the whole push to criminalize protests was a hundred percent a reaction to standing rock yeah um they were very freaked out by that um i think they always have like a an organized reaction to anything that indigenous people are doing period um it's like that whole gross extra layer to it um and then actually elsewhere too like in um in canada this um i like we're working with a reporter who's been looking into this in canada for a while his name's jeff dembeke and he's found that um there's a the the oil and gas companies there like wrote down in strategies i don't know why these guys write this stuff down all the time but they do they wrote down we're gonna make first

nations people the face of climate protests because that'll make it easy to vilify climate protest in the press wow yeah fuck jesus christ sorry that one's fully sent me um yeah yeah so and a very similar thing there too where it's like increasing fines and jail time and you know um Yeah. It's interesting how, yeah, it's like in the US anyway, like if you look at the bleeding edge of settler colonialism, it's nearly always fossil fuel extraction, right? Like, if like Oak Flat, the proposed extraction of lithium on tribal lands, like a lot of these the the nexus of like protest and yeah like colonialism will be these i guess not lithium isn't a fossil fuel but these extractive projects on tribal land yeah yes yes which is why actually the um the the rights of nature stuff is becoming really interesting in tribal court. So I don't know if you guys followed this, but like, um,

with the line three protests, the, um, the tribe there, they, um, they actually filed a case against a, uh, the Minnesota, I don't know know Department of Public Works or something like that and they um they they were like uh we have a um in in their case it's monoman the uh the rights of monoman so monoman is um oh god it just went out of my mind entirely it's uh wild rice sorry okay monoman is the word is the indigenous word for wild rice and they have rights for this rice written into their uh tribal laws and so they're saying look um based on our treaties you are actually violating this law. And therefore we can,

we can take you to court in tribal court to stop this pipeline. It didn't work to stop line three, but actually the case is still making its way through the courts because the, the Minnesota DPW tried to say, look, tribal court has an objection over arrests and the state court was like uh yeah they do actually because treaties exist yeah um so it's really interesting because now um it's the same tribe that is potentially impacted by line five in michigan and they are looking at using the same argument. And it could end up actually working there because there's now been enough time that it could

make its way through the courts and set a precedent. But anyway, yeah, it's really, really, really interesting. Yeah, that's really weirdly similar to the Kumeyaay people here in San Diego who are challenging the construction or quote-unquote repair, which is not what's happening, of Border Wall. Yes, that's what they all say about the pipelines too. It's always repairing an old pipeline. But you look at the plan and it's like that's a whole new-ass pipeline in a different place than it was before.

Yeah. line yeah in a different place than it was before yeah yeah yeah they're repairing a three-foot fence with a 30-foot steel barrier uh but yeah they it cuts directly through burial grounds here and they're repairing it by destroying the burial grounds which again they uh they've opposed with mixed results i guess but it's yeah i guess if folks are listening and they're interested there are a lot of places where they can they can help those struggles like different ways to do that but that that might be more effective here than going to the supreme court given the our supreme court's composition i guess exactly yeah exactly that's why yeah with the um the tribal court stuff i think will be interesting to watch in the next couple of years to see if they're able to to do anything um but you know tribal

sovereignty is all under attack by the supreme court yes yeah yeah yeah the likelihood of this resulting in like indigenous nations getting ever more fucked by the US is equally high as it could have ever having success, I guess. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, sorry, I got really far afield there. The counter protest stuff is very, very, very much being driven by oil and gas. And there's it just keeps going too i mean every year there's like you know multiple more of these laws being proposed and passed i think we're at 20 it's now have passed them 14 or 15 have actually implemented them um yeah and yeah it's not not great. No. I also think like, you know, you're seeing the expansion of the whole eco terrorist and really like come back with a vengeance to you.

I feel like that was something that happened in like early post 9-11 days and is now happening again where it's it's like, I don't know, let's expand the definition of terrorism to include environmental activists and then we can go after them with those charges too. That happened in Cop City too, right? Weren't they using... Yes, yes. They are in the process of

still doing that, yeah. Great. Well, Amy, this is all really important. I'm super fun at parties. I'm so fun. No, no, no. This is a real meeting of the people who are fun at parties. Sit down and...

Do you know that dissent has been criminalized in the United Kingdom I don't know man I guess I'll have a Manhattan like what do you want the last party Robert and I attended together we saw a car bomb happen so at least that we did see a car bomb happen bring positive vibes

oh it was just a demonst a car bomb happen. Yeah. Oh my God. Bring positive vibes. Oh, it was just a demonstrative car bomb, you know. Not an Irish car bomb. Yeah, no, no, no. Burmese car bomb,

sadly. No, no, if it was an Irish car bomb, it would have gotten more people. That's a little bit of IRA humor for the audience. Okay, we should probably call that before we get into the show I'm making the

neck slash motion alright well Amy Westerville thank you so much for coming on today and thank you for continuing to put out a podcast that is keep that can at least if people you know listen keep them um very updated on some of the most important um climate related news going on today and some of the real like fuckery being carried out by the oil and gas

industry again the podcast is drilled season eight right now is about exxon and guiana um amy you have anything else you wanted to say before we, we roll out? No, that's it. Thanks for having me. This was fun. Yeah.

Thank you so much, Amy. Really appreciate it. And, uh, yeah, uh, this has been Robert and James.

Um, we should probably do something on the themes at some point, James, it'll rhyme. I know it's not pronounced that way. I know this was just me. Let's do it anyway. We could call it Robert and Jim's on the Tims.

You know? There we go. Absolutely not. All right. Podcast is over. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com. Thanks for listening. You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadowbride. Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of riot. An anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. of Latin America. Listen to Nocturno on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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