It Could Happen Here - Fighting Antisemitism with Shane Burley and Ben Lorber

Episode Date: August 8, 2024

Gare is joined by Shane Burley and Ben Lorber to discuss how to identify antisemitism and the attacks against Palestine solidarity protests. Their new book is titled "Safety Through Solidarity: A Radical Guide to Fighting Antisemitism." Upcoming online event-https://forward.com/events/how-the-left-can-fight-antisemitism/  https://vashtimedia.com/how-to-fight-antisemitism-and-win/  https://jewishcurrents.org/examining-the-adls-antisemitism-audit     See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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both the book and a variety of issues revolving around this topic. Thank you for coming on, both of you. Yeah, thanks for having us on. Yeah, thanks for having us. So a few months ago, I put out an episode looking at a genuine uptick in antisemitic incidents that have happened in the United States and Europe. And sometimes it feels kind of like a tricky thing to talk about in some ways. It's like you're threading a very difficult needle. It's like you're caught between a rock and a hard place when discussing this topic. Because if you point to an actual trend that you're seeing, showing a genuine spike in anti-Semitic incidents, there's like a subset of people who are very focused on the genocide in Gaza, very rightly so, but they might

push back since claims of anti-Semitism have been so conflated with any display of anti-Zionist politics. Or even worse, they might even question, why are you talking about this when there's this other horrible thing going on, right? The actual genocide in Gaza. Now, I think, meanwhile, if you avoid this as a lesser or a non-issue, if you don't talk about these things, I would argue that actually strengthens the Zionist political project of tying Jewish safety solely to the state of Israel. And in some ways, I think ignoring this entire issue legitimizes a degree of criticisms that are being leveled against these massive protests and calls for a ceasefire and justice in Palestine.

So I guess, how long have you been putting together this book? And how much did the war in Gaza this past year kind of change the scope of it as you were writing this? Yeah, I mean, we started, I think Ben and I started talking about this in 2019, beginning of 2020. So it's a totally, it was a totally different context when we started working on the book. And what we had been wanting was actually to sort of like, drive a wedge into what you're talking about here, which is like that there isn't really good discourse on what anti-Semitism actually is that takes it seriously, that doesn't just kind of deflect and project onto anti-Zionism. Since Ben and I both come from like a history of organizing a Palestine solidarity movement, me with Students for Justice in Palestine on campus,

Ben with Jewish Voice for Peace. So we had seen basically firsthand how accusations of anti-Semitism basically leveled just constantly at Palestine Solidarity protesters. And then also in researching covering the far right, seeing obviously the growth of anti-Semitism

and white nationalism, both in the US and internationally. And that only increased over time. So we wanted to work on something that took that seriously and also sort of revive different traditions from the left that talk about anti-Semitism, whether it's anti-fascism or different kind of Marxist trends or the Jewish left, kind of bring it to one place, talk to other folks who are also taking it seriously and weave that together. All of that is different. And before October 7th, because we were turning in the draft of a book like a matter of days

after October 7th happened. Oh, wow. Like we went and talked to the publisher and we're like, well, the whole world just changed. I mean, we have to, we have to make changes about it. And so we've made some and basically like address some questions there. And I think you can kind of see at the, in the conclusion of like the very end of the book, kind of where we cut it off in November, December area, and sort of kind of acknowledge that things are different here. But I think that there's also bigger questions that we're talking about now that like, we're doing interviews and writing articles and stuff afterwards about how that's changed. But a lot of this really, I think one thing that's important

is that because we make very clear, like very incredibly clear that anti-Zionism is not the same as anti-Semitism, in a way the conversation is the same as before, because we're actually talking about where real anti-Semitism lives. And if you look at the way that discourse is now, particularly from groups like the Anti-Defamation League, is it's basically built entirely around, you know, attacking college protests, right? Attacking these mass anti-genocide demonstrations. Right. And since that's so foundationally different than how we understand anti-Semitism, there's a way in which like the conversation that has the book is sort of the same.

And what do you think about this, Ben? Yeah, no, I mean, I agree that it really hasn't changed that much, even though it's just a lot bigger and more prominent. And the forces that are trying to attack the movement for justice in Palestine are stronger. They're trying to pass legislation, taking away our free speech rights. They're trying to restrict academic freedom. They're trying to go after the IRS status of justice organizations. So the stakes are really high, but I think the intervention that we've always been wanting to make is to really put the conversation back where it belongs, like on the rise of the far right, on the rise of white Christian nationalism, right? other systems of oppression like anti-blackness, anti-LGBTQ bigotry, Islamophobia, anti-integrant xenophobia. Anti-Semitism is deeply connected, right? These George Soros conspiracies are being

used by authoritarian leaders like Donald Trump and J.B. Vance and the rest of them to build up the MAGA base and to attack the foundations of our multiracial democracy. And we've seen it have deadly results for Jews and for other groups, you know, white nationalists, you know, mass shooters who are motivated by anti-Semitic conspiracy theories have attacked synagogues, have attacked Latinx communities, have attacked Black communities. And so, yeah, anti-Semitism is part of that machinery of oppression. And so our book tries to reframe the conversation and give justice organizers a way to take back the conversation away from the right. Would one of you be willing to give like a workable definition of anti-Semitism?

Because this is a word that's certainly been used a lot, but I think it's a word that signifies possibly a lot of different things. And I guess, what is the definition of anti-Semitism that you are using in your book? Yeah, so at root, we really see anti-Semitism as a form of conspiracy theory thinking that developed out of Christianity in Christian Europe, and that essentially sees Jews as the root cause of evil, or the root cause of the world's problems kind of behind the scenes. It trades in images of a cabal lurking behind, you know, government or the media or the economy. And these conspiracy theories are core to an authoritarian and nationalist worldview that mobilize, you know, millions really away from examining and confronting the root causes of oppression and convinces them to chase, you know, kind of illusory shadows

instead. Why do we have like a harder time kind of pinning down this term? You know, I think people have a general idea and a pretty easy way to like, see like, you know, what's like Islamophobic, right? What's racist? There's a few points in your book that you talk about, you know, instances of people maybe unintentionally spreading antisemitism, that if they were instead talking about like Muslims, or like trans people, or like black people, they would like easily identify as like, oh, this is very clearly a form of like xenophobia. This is very clearly like based on some kind of of conspiratorial discrimination. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a few reasons for this, and we talk about this in the book. I mean,

one of them is that the way that antisemitism has operated is generally a narrative about punching up against power versus a lot of narratives of oppression, which are basically about how various groups are subhuman or lesser than dominant population. That's slightly different with Jews, though that has been a component of some pieces of it. It historically is basically a narrative that people who feel disempowered then use to sort of like reclaim a sort of kind of populist energy. In a lot of ways, it ends up being a place where folks are directed by people in power to put their class anger away from the actual ruling class. So I think in a way, when people see antisemitism, they also recognize that there's

legitimate class anger, legitimate disenfranchisement, and I think that's actually troubling to sort of, people don't want to undermine that feeling always necessarily. I think there's also just the complexity of Jewish identity that's shifted over time, different populations, different communities, different politics, sometimes religious, sometimes more cultural, sometimes more ethnic. That can make it confusing. So it's hard to use one model for understanding oppression and then project it onto this. And so in a lot of ways, you kind of have to come at this question distinctly from kind of other forms of oppression. That's actually true of most forms of oppression. They have a lot of distinctiveness. But I think you have to kind of learn about those contours.

And then again, I think part of it is also that this hasn't been a big part of the left conversation in the last 20 or 30 years. It used to be more frequent that this would be like, you know, maybe trainings and left spaces where people would talk about that. It just simply hasn't been the case that much recently. And so I think there's actually a big lack of just understanding of how to notice those things and to talk about them. And then I think weaponization has become such, it's not just such an overwhelming part of it. It's actually the dominating conversation on antisemitism, particularly in the US. So when you hear about antisemitism, it's overwhelmingly going to be directed by the center or the right or firm institutions directed at Palestine solidarity movements. And again, people get

hard and skinned to that because they don't want to like give an inch on those sorts of things. And I totally understand why. And so I think that also has created that boundary of where examination would normally take place. It is interesting looking at like how much the right wing has been able to weaponize claims of anti-semitism against the left i think the term that you use in the book is selective outrage on anti-semitism because i mean i i was just at the rnc and you're hearing marjorie taylor green talk about how there's like anti-semitic protests happening around the country and you're like wait a minute you're the jewish space laser person what are you talking about?

And I think it was DeSantis who just called all university protesters Hamas. Not saying that they're like Hamas, but just literally saying like these people are like are Hamas. Like Hamas took over university protests. And meanwhile, you would be hard pressed to find anybody on this camp talking about, you know, the strong degree, especially considering DeSantis, the strong degree of anti-Semitic people either involved in their own campaigns or like their actual supporters. It was just a year ago where DeSantis' campaign staff released a video of him with the sonnet rad. It's like, come on, buddy. So it is interesting how they've been able to try to weaponize those claims while completely ignoring the structural anti-Semitism baked into this new wave of nationalist politics that we're seeing in the United States.

Yeah, no, totally. The example of Marjorie Taylor Greene is so striking. I mean, she, I believe in the same day once, she called the protesters on college campuses of anti-semitic and then she said that they were funded by george soros right so yeah yeah yeah and she's using them both for the same purpose and it's not only desantis and the right i mean in jonathan greenblatt the head of the edl i remember like a few months ago said that students on college campuses were um iranian proxies and when you use that language, you're basically authorizing military counter insurgency against protesters. It really puts Jews in danger, not to mention Palestinians, Muslims, basically all groups, right? Because sure, there's occasionally a stray anti-Semitic

comment that shows up at protests, because anti-Semitism is part of our world. There's anti-Blackness, injustice movements, anti-LGBTQB history, and anti-Semitism, sure. But that's no comparison to when you have, like, Elon Musk, the richest person in the world, one of the most powerful people in the world, saying that Jews are engaged in hatred against whites, right? There's no comparison in terms of power and threat level. So it's really making Jews less safe. Yeah. And we also talk about the fact that because anti-Semitic conspiracy theories are such a foundational part of the right's form of populism, it's sort of how they explain kind of class anger and energy from the base,

that there's really no way to detach it. And so it ends up being this foundational piece that even when they talk about Israel consistently, the way that they've built a connection with their base is by trumping up George Soros or Rothschild's conspiracy theories, or basically presenting kind of us and them populist narrative around theories about globalists and things like that. So there's really no comparison that we're talking about antisemitism when it shows up on the left versus the really deeply inlaid way that it exists on the right. And like Ben was saying, right now we have a situation where the right is overwhelmingly united in support of Israel and using that as their evidence of support for Jews

and then pushing great replacement theory claims, which are inherently antisemitic on the one hand, or really kind of mobilizing Jews in their rhetoric for their own kind of geopolitical aims, which again, it's not based out of like a deeply held love for Jews. It's either built on sort of a Christian Zionist eschatology or just simply opportunistic use of this minority group to sort of push their own political values, which itself is kind of a deeply held anti-Semitic way of treating the Jewish community. And so when we're looking at this, we can't let the rhetoric that's become the dominant actually stand for how we understand anti-Semitism because it's been so politically motivated.

Yeah. I mean, as a researcher, it has been quite frustrating because I've used to, you know, a lot of people used to be able to rely on some degree on like data aggregates like the ADL and putting together like lists of incidents, like maps. And as I was putting together my piece looking at this uptick in anti-Semitism a few months ago, I was, you know, looking through this ADL map and the amount of like equivocation between just a standard pro-Palestine protest, protests that I was present at, and I was like, this was a Jewish-led protest, and having that be equivocated with acts of actual neo-Nazi

terrorism, as well as acts of genuine anti-Semitism from people on the left. Basically, it's resulting in data poisoning, which makes it really hard to actually unpack some of these like larger issues that are that are facing both like Jewish people, people who are very concerned about Palestine, and people who take like the threat of like, you know, far right nationalism quite seriously. Yeah, I went through all of the ADL's 2023 anti-Semitism data with like this project with Jewish currents. And the reality is, is that the standard they use on sort of like left-oriented Palestine protests

is to have almost any measure of support for Palestinians or any kind of global call for justice in Palestine that is de facto anti-Semitism. And like you said, it then overwhelms the data. It sort of shuts out other things. And the way that they even set up the reporting system just privileges those kinds of protests. So people, it teaches, for example, they'll partner with other organizations and show people how to report. And so they'll end up mass reporting these

protest events and then under-reporting white nationalist incidents or like violent incidents. So what you end up seeing in their data is that they've actually undercoded white nationalist events because of the way that they kind of set up the data. And they don't really track things like housing discrimination, workplace discrimination against Jews. Those kind of things really don't fit into their model. So what you end up with is this kind of map that just privileges people saying from the river to the sea is like this inherently anti-Semitic meme and then undercounts like what often Jews will report as what makes them feeling unsafe, you know, comments at work or actual pressures when buying homes, things like that. Like that doesn't really show up. You've experienced as a Jews in

prison, those don't show up. So, you end up with this really skewed image on what it is where you assume that the left is overwhelmingly the responsible party and then it actually invisibilizes a pretty growing force on the right and even institutionally, just like in structures of kind of like American culture. So it's really hard then to say like, well, how do I know what's actually happening here? The ADL is the largest organization. Every organization then uses their data. Where am I going?

It leads you in a really big kind of a gap in how to understand what's happening. So we can look at, you know, pretty clear evidence that there's a rise in anti-Semitism, you know, by looking at things like street attacks or by looking at the rhetoric on the right. But it's hard to get like a clear picture of it because every organization is this oriented, looking at the left. Like, I was just going to say, like, this goes way back to the ADL. Like, you know, in our book, we talk about how even in the 1970s and the 80s, the ADL was spying on left-wing activists as part of their pivot towards seeing the most important side of anti-Semitism on what they call the radical left. In the 1970s, as global criticism of Israel's

occupation mounted after the 1967 Six-Day War, Group 60 ADL, like, really pivoted further from whatever original mission they may have had about, like, genuinely countering bigotry to really becoming, like, Israel defense organizations. And so in the 70s and 80s, like, you saw them spying on anti-apartheid activists. You saw them attacking Arab American, you know, professors at universities. You saw them spying on ACTA, even left-wing Jewish groups like New Jewish Agenda. And so it's not only Jonathan Greenblatt. It's not only since October 7th. The ADL has been playing this role for a long time, along with a whole lot of Christian

Zionists and both sides of the U.S. political establishment. And yeah, like we were saying, the stakes are extremely high. The right and the center are trying to legislate their definition of anti-Semitism to destroy free speech and to protect Israel's genocide. So the stakes are very high about this right now. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. You know that rush of

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feel emotions correctly. I am talking to a felon right now, and I cannot decide if I like him or not. Those were some callers from my call-in podcast, Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take real phone calls from anonymous strangers all over the world as a fake

gecko therapist and try to dig into their brains and learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's pretty interesting if you give it a shot. Matter of fact, here's a few more examples of the kinds of calls we get on this show. found his piss jar in our apartment. I collect my roommate's toenails and fingernails. I have very overbearing parents. Even at the age of 29, they won't let me move out of their house. So if you want an excuse to get out of your own head and see what's going on in someone else's head,

search for Therapy Gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's the one with the green guy on it. Hey, I'm Jack B. Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. I'm Jack Peace Thomas, and I'm inviting you to join me and a vibrant community of literary enthusiasts dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories. Black Lit is for the page turners, for those who listen to audiobooks while commuting or

running errands, for those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge between the chapters. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Together, we'll dissect classics and contemporary works while uncovering the stories of the brilliant writers behind them. Blacklit is here to amplify the voices of Black writers and to bring their words to life. Listen to Blacklit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I think one of the most troubling notions about, you know, how there's groups like the ADL and others that are kind of, like you've said, like lobbying for legislation and trying to encourage like extreme crackdowns on human rights protests and anti-genocide protests, is that this is also like materially harms a whole bunch of Jewish people

who are involved in these protests and in organizing. You're trying to get the FBI to investigate Jewish people who are protesting against a genocide. And we saw this with the campus university protests. We saw this, you know, especially at Columbia, of like a lot of these kids are Jewish people who are heavily involved in these protests and in calls to do a very extreme crackdown and investigations. It's hard to see how that's not just like calling for for our government to like further further oppress these Jewish people who don't like agree with one side's opinion on something. these Jewish people who don't like agree with one side's opinion on something.

Yeah. Yeah. You see it, you know, in the most kind of ironic, you know, twist of history in Germany where, you know, the state, those once a Nazi state is enforcing some of the most brutal crackdowns on the Palestine solidarity speech and Jews are disproportionately represented among the crackdown there. And so you have, you know, German police pulling people with kippahs and arresting them, you know, shutting down events with Jewish speakers. Right. So it's it's really like literally policing Jewish thought. Right. We know there's over a century of Jewish opposition to Zionism and Jewish solidarity with Palestinians from the very beginnings of the Zionist movement, which was originally a Christian movement in Christian era, by the way, you know, and we've always had long traditions of Jews who have resisted it. And so when the state is legislating, saying only like a certain expression of Jewish identity is valid, that's also an antisemitism, right? Like, and we see it, you know, not only from Trump, right?

You know, Trump will always say, oh, Jews who are Democrats, Jews who are quote-unquote disloyal to Israel are problematic. You also see it from Biden who says, you know, without Israel, there's not a Jew in the world who's safe, right? So I think, you know, Jews who dissent on Israel

are rapidly becoming enemies in a way of the right, you know, and of forces aligned with the right. And I think that's an aspect of anti-Semitism that's not talked about enough today. Yeah, and there's a lot of examples of this, too. During the Labor Party controversy around Corbyn and anti-Semitism, it was Jewish members who were overwhelmingly expelled from the party. I think it's almost like a dozen times more likely to face kind of consequences there, right? So like those ended up being the centerpiece of it. But I think even when you broaden out, this ends up being the case, and we kind of talk about this as like a good Jew, bad Jew distinction, where like antisemitism ends up being mobilized against whatever kind of the

culture decides is a bad Jew, or whatever the organization decides is the bad version of a Jew, the kind of Jew they don't want to actually deal with. And this happens in this pro-Israel consensus whereby Likud, Netanyahu, basically the far-right coalition running Israel right now, builds alliances that they need around the world with far-right parties in Hungary, in South Asia, India, with Hindu nationalists, and with other places. And then those movements are pretty explicitly anti-Semitic, therefore making Jews in various countries around the diaspora less and less safe, right? And so, this sort of model of making Israel the bottom line on defending against anti-Semitism is one that strengthened the right, helped to build up Christian nationalism domestically, and then that creates this kind of general culture of unsafety for Jews, where the

only Jewish voices that are then held up are the ones that, you know, justify Christian nationalism on the one hand, like you'll see at the National Conservatism Conference, or ones that are so aggressively pro-Israel that they're totally willing to partner with Christian Zayas groups, or the far-right wing of the Republican Party, or National Conservative Parties in Europe. And so, this ends up as a situation where, where like an increasing number of Jews, particularly in the US, or Jews around the left, which again, is still disproportionately Jewish, feel increasingly targeted by the political consensus. And at the same time, this pro-Israel rhetoric ends up being the de facto measure by which anyone's kind of set to. Yeah, I did like there was this part in the book where

you were talking about the good Jew, bad Jew binary, specifically on the left, where there's like a minority of Jews who identify as anti or non-Zionist who are very like celebrated, sometimes maybe even in like a tokenizing kind of way, while the rest of Jewish people who do not identify as such are belittled as unworthy

or like untrustworthy, or their opinions are dismissed or seen as morally compromised on like an inherent level. And this can also be coupled with this assumption that like every Jew is a secret Zionist until proven otherwise. And you have to like get every new Jewish person you meet to like prove to you that they're not secretly a Zionist, which is, you know, very anti-Semitic. And we also do have this good Jew, bad Jew binary mirrored in like an inverted form on the right with Zionist Jews, you know, being seen as the good ones and

anti-Zionist Jews have their like Jewishness questioned or are seen as like untrustworthy or inherently evil. And I do believe it is worth discussing kind of the flip side of this and i think avoiding talking about actual antisemitism on the left i think only serves to harm all of us and i because it is something that i think is happening and i think should be talked about even if it makes people like uncomfortable and i think it's a it is a mistake to assume that just because you're on the left that you're like somehow immune to anti-Semitic thinking, whether purposeful or not. Like both of you have mentioned, we live in a society that has a great degree of structural anti-Semitism. And a lot of these people, I think, who might be attending some of these protests or might just be posting online, who knows, might not even be intentionally

spreading anti-Semitism, right? But in action, that's kind of what they're invoking through ideas of the Zionist cabal that secretly controls all of the media, all of the government, those types of things. We're starting to invoke these larger secretive organizations that are pre-planning this whole thing. And just to some degree, from a lot of the discourse that you see, I feel like some people think they can just control control F Jews to Zionists. And like, if you're able to control F Jews to Zionists and the sentence still works, that means that you're doing it wrong. That means that you're probably approaching this from a problematic standpoint. And there's a whole bunch of aspects about this sort of thing that you do talk about in the book, including identifying Judaism with Zionism and how that also only hurts all of us, including this weird uptick in Jewish

race science that you're starting to see more and more of, claiming that all modern Jewish people only come from Europe. And it's like, there's just a whole bunch of this kind of stuff that we're all kind of pushing to the side. But I do believe it is like worth talking about in some degree, because this is going to not only harm people who are calling for an end to the genocide in Gaza, I think it does like strengthen this notion that a lot of the Zionist project is built on, which is saying that like, we need Israel as a way to like secure safety for Jewish people around the world. Yeah, I think we talk about this, you know, we have a couple chapters that talk kind of explicitly about this at different points in history. But I think there's

a tendency, and I kind of get where this comes from, to basically see any ally or any kind of voice in support of a movement as like a partner, particularly when you're trying to build like mass support against something that basically has kind of mass opposition on the other side, like liberating Palestine. But what you see oftentimes when you see a movement grow really dramatically, really quickly is that there's just not a kind of like common baseline understanding always of that. And conspiracy theories are a great way to fill the gap on them. And that's true of really any movement. It's just that in particular in this case, we have this long history of anti-Semitic conspiracy theories about Jewish power in particular, and then we're talking about sort of like powerful political actors on the

other. And so making clear distinctions is just not there necessarily. So, you know, we talked with lots of folks that have been sort of litmus tested when entering kind of left spaces of Nazism. I talked to folks where other organizers asked to see their passport before they're allowed to come to meetings. It's crazy. It's wild. And you think in most of the cases, people would kind of identify that as being kind of wild. We make a lot of distinctions. We talk about like the sort of difference between talking about a Israel lobby organization like AIPAC and its power, or kind of a vague,

diffuse Israel lobby that controls Western politics, that kind of thing. Like a parenthesis, parenthesis, parenthesis, Israel lobby. Exactly, exactly. And instead talk about like, why would we understand Israel as part of kind of a Western imperial project rather than the flip side, this kind of small country controlling Western foreign policy, that kind of thing, and make a lot of those clear distinctions. And again, I think it's been sort of suggested, like, these ideas, anti-Semitic ideas, are a part of the culture. And, you know, I've been around the left long enough to see, like, virulent transphobic ideas show up, to see, like, queerphobic ideas in general be very, very present. There's no reason to believe that

anti-Semitism wouldn't show up here either, where folks are sort of like consumed by anger, what people are looking for clear answers, what people are trying to dignify that. And I think the easy answer is often to paper over it. And I think what we talk about here is that that exactly is what sort of pro-Israel voices want in this case, is to know that the left isn't going to deal with it. And so the alternative to that is to both like create like a sense of like of how will we confront anti-Semitic institutions and where structural anti-Semitism comes from? And then also, how do we deal with that internally? And we talk with a bunch of social movements that have done that, right?

Anti-fascists are actually pretty used to talking about anti-Semitism when it shows up on the left. That's pretty common. The Jewish left has talked about this historically. There's other voices. So bringing that back and sort of making that a safe place to confront and then figure out then where is it like, you know, just a bad idea that you deal with and you talk about, you have like education and where do you draw lines where like, you know, this is now not a person that's not

allowed in, or these are our voices that we can't partner with that kind of thing. I think that's something people work out on the ground. And you make a really good comparison in the book about how like anti-Semitic conspiracy theories inhibit a actual understanding of like the mechanisms of capital, right? Like it makes you unable to actually like analyze how capitalism operates. And similarly, having like an anti-Semitic conspiratorial view of like anti-Zionism, that also will mask the root cause of Palestinian oppression by distracting from, like, the very, like, real, like, geopolitical mechanisms that have caused this situation to take place. And distracting from that with, like, these tales of, like, you describe it as, like, innate Jewish wickedness or a global Zionist power. like you describe it as like innate Jewish wickedness or a global Zionist power. And I think that's a really good understanding because people will often like,

I think have a general idea that like, yeah, antisemitism is like in a lot of ways used as a way to not fully confront like the mechanisms of capitalism and realizing how, you know, it's kind of, it's kind of like a similar situation with Palestine is a way for people to like understand that a little bit easier. And to like reiterate the point about how you're not immune to anti-Semitism just because you're on the left, right? Something else you also bring up in the book is Marxist-Leninism has a very mixed history with their relationship to anti-Semitism. And I think you do see this with the degree of the discourse on this issue. If you compare anarchistpoints on like statism and anti-Zionism to a whole bunch of Marxist-Leninists talking about this issue, I do believe there is, you know, generally maybe more anti-Semitic undertones among some of the more like statist communists.

anarchists and i think you talk about like the soviet union's own oppression of of jewish people and kind of the continued pogroms that happened even after the end of world war ii yeah i'd say like in the history of the 19th and the 20th century left i think the record of both camps has been fairly mixed i mean i think it was anarchists like you know bakunin who maybe like sure sure yeah totally and you know like i guess i have to also have to say you know, Bakunin, who maybe, like, leaned into the West. Sure, sure, totally. And, you know, like, I guess I also have to say, you know, with the 1917 October Revolution, that was, like, probably one of the first times that a left-led society did pass, you know, laws outlawing anti-Semitism. And then, like, they did, you know, defeat the Nazis. So, I have to give them some credit where it's due. But yes, there's also, like, a very mixed, you know, record, especially in the 30s and the 40s and beyond. And certainly, yeah, today, I would completely agree with you that like how these conspiracy theories can distract us from the root causes of power.

And that's really, I think, where if you want to develop a structural understanding of anti-Semitism and how it connects to capitalism and all the other systems of oppression, that's where you got to go, right? Actually, in times of crisis and mass discontent, like today, with the rise of nationalism, with, you know, widespread alienation, that's when anti-Semitism really rises and is mobilized by authoritarian and nationalist, you know, leaders. When there's millions of people who are fed up that they don't have a job, they don't have any savings, they know the media is lying to them. They know that politicians don't represent them. That's when these conspiracy theories really take root on the right and on the left. And that's why you have Trump and Steve Bannon and the rest of them saying, oh, go look at the globalists. Go look at George Soros. Go look at cultural Marxist, right? And I think the more that the left can advance our own understanding of why the world is so fucked up and how to make it better, then we can really undercut the root causes of anti-Semitism and move more people into our coalitions. So yeah, that's really key, I think. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories,

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Together, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Together, we'll dissect classics and contemporary works while uncovering the stories of the brilliant writers behind them. Black Lit is here to amplify the voices of Black writers and to bring their words to life. Listen to Black Lit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I have two examples I like to kind of bring up as ways to like springboard discussions on like how we can actually like handle this going forward, whether that be, you know, if you hear someone say something at a protest that makes you think, eh, that's a little questionable, or as ways to actually just continue your own active participation in calls for ceasefire and ending the genocide in Palestine and whatever justice in Palestine might look like. So a few months ago, I was at the Emory University campus occupation. And maybe like a week in or so, enemy of the pod, Jackson Hinkle, showed up in person, along with Haas and a few of those kind of like cronies, right? These are people who are like conservative communists, mega communists. They're basically like Duganists or

like third positionists. And they basically become influencers that monetize the genocide in gaza for their own like personal political profile so this guy showed up one night and no one really knew what exactly to do like people knew who he was there was people talking with organizers and like organizers tried to talk with him be like hey can you like not be here and he's like well no i want to be here because blah blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, certain people would try to get into like political arguments with him, which I think is completely useless. And it was, it was kind of a weird situation. And then we learned that he was slated to speak at an event the next day. Now it's unclear if he was kind of hijacking this event or if he was actually invited to speak, but regardless,

he was going to show up and make some kind of speech at an event later that next day. So some people put together this flyer kind of going through Hinkle's politics, his history of anti-Semitism, rabid queer phobia, racism, all these things that explain kind of who he actually is as a person. And these flyers were distributed that morning, like before he was slated to speak around the venue. As he went up on stage, a decent number of people in the audience who had these flyers protested,

be like, no, like you can't be here. He was escorted out of the building and then he was escorted off of campus. I think this was a very effective way of handling a situation like this. It didn't give him an opportunity for extra clicks. It wasn't a super volatile way to handle this. It was very simple. It was kind of elegant. There was just no way for him to really weaponize this effectively. So we have something like that as a way to like, you know, clamp down on people who are either disingenuous or just actually anti-Semitic.

We're trying to like infiltrate or take over in some degree this kind of general call to stop the genocide in Gaza. Meanwhile, a few weeks ago, there were protests in D.C. as Netanyahu was speaking to Congress. And there was this video going around of people like graffitiing the fake Liberty Bell with like just pro-Palestine slogans and stuff. And like everyone was freaking out about this. Not everybody, you know, a certain section of political people were freaking out about this. A whole bunch of other people were like, okay, well, it's graffiti on a fake bell, who cares? But I actually watched that whole video. And after they look at the Liberty Bell, it pans over to this other monument nearby, where in big red lettering is written, Hamas is coming. And it kind of destroys any ability to cultivate forward momentum.

It's like they're doing it just so that Democrats will be pressured into condemning it to reinforce like their own hopelessness, performative spiral of doing nothing but edgy graffiti as political praxis. And I see this as kind of a general pattern of people trying to establish themselves as like the most radical and using that as a weapon against anyone else. And it's just like a form of political posturing. It's hardly any different from posting a black square on Instagram. They don't want any actual movement or any actual change. They want to be the coolest, most correct people as the world ends. It's kind of like a cowardly way out. Because as you point out in the book, it's kind of hell to actually have to deal with and work

with people who have some degree of like morally compromised politics. And that actually requires like caring about the ends, but it's the means that make you look cool. Things like this are kind of bound to happen at any kind of protest that has more than like, you know, 50 people, right? There's going to be someone who does something that the main protest is not aligned with. And on that note, like, the main protest is not aligned with. And on that note, like, what advice would you have to people who are attending these protests, and you see someone who maybe does something that's a little bit questionable, whether that be, you know, like harassing just a random, like visibly Jewish person, or, you know, writing graffiti on a synagogue, right? These types of things that are like, really not helpful and actually kind of do display a degree of maybe like uh like like coded anti-semitic motivation yeah so i think it

the spray painting of hamas on the statue i think it's interesting example because that was just brandished all over right-wing media you know tablet magazine did an article about how these folks should be deported it was all over instagram it was like a trending thing on instagram And it did very little like protest wise, right? And actually at that same demonstration, there's a number of rabbis, particularly kind of like movement elder rabbis, Linda Holtzman, other folks that were arrested by cops pretty brutally and then detained, right? So there actually was police attacking like a Jewish contingent of like religious figures. Totally. I think also there's been a number of examples, I think, where folks really just aren't prepared for something. And I think this is actually sort of a long conversation people should have on the left. I remember years ago, I was with a group

that created sort of like an accountability document. And the idea was, is that if something happens in an organization, it often just destroys the organization. If there's interpersonal issues, if there's like interpersonal trauma or assault things like that and so getting out in front of it just like having a sense of like how you want to deal with things and like having had consensus amongst folks of like this is like appropriate behavior this is how we want to handle stuff that's always a strong thing to do but at the george i think it's a george washington university campus at the end of april patrick casey who's formerly of identityity Europa and the American Identity Movement, showed up at the encampment and wanted to talk to people, wanted to ask them questions and that kind of thing. And people were totally obliged to him. They were in photos with

him, let him take video. That's because they didn't know who he was, right? In reality, he didn't actually find anyone that was going to basically support his vision. He stopped. People asked, you know, will you allow right-wing anti-Zionists here? They basically said no. He did find one person with a hat that said Israel did 9-11, who then told him that the Jews rejected Christ, but he was also kind of on the edges of the encampment. The reality is what happened was a white nationalist came into an encampment and took photos of Jews and posted them on a white nationalist website. That's what happened, you know? So, there actually was anti-Zionemitism. It affected the Jews at the encampment. But no one knew who it was. And I think the flip side of that is having partners with groups that

actually do know who Patrick Casey is and be able to say, oh, that guy is not here. It's not legitimate. I think with someone like Hinkle, MAGA communists, that's really confusing to people. Yes. I mean, that's why he does it. Like it's a Duganist and kind of gray zone types and this kind of version of authoritarian kind of like right leading, right coded, so-called communists. It's there literally to confuse people and to bridge the gaps between the right and the left. And so again, building that base of people talking to them, having like internal trainings about how this stuff works and like what these groups are. I think that's always going to be a good thing.

You know, we talked with one organizer who had an organization that had put together a training for other groups on antisemitism and invited all these groups to come and, you know, wanted to get feedback on the training. So they, they did the training and everyone kind of like thanked them and then went on to ask them questions. And the questions were exceedingly antisemitic. It was things like, well, how do you talk about the New York housing market when clearly Jews control that? And these were major, major organizations. And so basically they had like a choice, like, are we going to deal with this here? Are we going to cut these relationships? And they basically were like, okay, let's talk about this. Let's deal with it. Yeah. Yeah. And it moved the organizations huge. Like they were like, we don't want to make

these kinds of decisions. We want to realize where we made mistakes. That's not true of everyone. Do not be polyamorous about it and assume it's always going to go over well. But I think we have to actually attempt to make those changes. And the reason is that the left and building kind of left social movements build on solidarity and equality. That's the only option we have to do something about anti-Semitism. The right has never made Jews safer. We have right now a system where Israeli nationalism is supposed to be the primary vessel for Jewish safety. I don't know about you,

but when I look at Israel, I don't think to myself, what a tremendously bunch of safe Jews. We have a situation that I don't think the political solutions actually offer Jewish safety and instead just create more and more social division and more and more social hierarchy. So we have to kind of look at the left and how to build a left that can confront antisemitism. And that is really the only option we're being given. Yeah. I think like avoiding this whole issue out of fears that like,

it like, it like somehow like takes away from other bad things that are happening in the world. Like it, like somehow it takes away from the genocide in Gaza, I think is so misplaced thinking, because I view this as all part of the same struggle. And actual like active efforts to combat any degree of antisemitism that is witnessed, I think, will serve to only like strengthen the general, like overall

united call to stop what's going on. And I think people have this inclination that maybe we shouldn't talk about it. Maybe we should just try to ignore it because it's uncomfortable or it might hurt the cause. And I think that's just absolutely reversed. I think, like you said, making inroads with anti-fascist researchers to help identify when these things are happening, who bad actors might be, you know, people that might try to Trojan horse certain issues to kind of alter a popular movement is all great ways to start. Ben, do you have any other kind of thoughts on how to handle this like unique political moment? Yeah, no, I mean, I've been around Palestine solidarity movements for

like, you know, over a decade. I remember like a decade ago, I was at a rally and, you know, most of the signage there was like really inspiring and awesome. But at one point I saw like a sign that showed like kind of like a hook-nosed Israeli soldier who was like feasting on children's blood. And it was like, okay, this is definitely the, like there's some anti-Semitism here. And I actually like went up and like talk to the person and they were like really nice. And,

you know, I explained to them like, you know, there's a thing called the Bible, which is a anti-Semitic myth. That's harmed Jews for centuries that the Jews like feast on Christian children's blood. And that like,

it seems like that image of the Israeli soldier is like, seems to like have a big nose. And that's kind of like a stereotype from Europe. And they were like, oh, I didn't really like know these things. They took the sign down and left feeling like it was a good conversation.

And so like things like that, I think there's some understandable fear like among Jewish people that you might see signs like this at rallies. And when you do, I think just like trying to have conversations, it doesn't always go well, but often it does. And I just think like, you know, for any marginalized group or form of oppression, the more the people just deepen their, their understanding of like,

what antisemitism is, how it shows up, what some of these, these tropes are, like the more that it becomes uh normalized the the more that it will become second nature to people and people won't be as afraid to talk about it there won't be this kind of like weird silence around it like and there's some anti-semitism in that silence to be clear like for any any kind of oppression if you thought oh people don't want to talk about like anti-Black racism in the movement, that itself is like, is part of anti-Blackness, right? So we should be clear. And I also think, like you're saying, the fact that so often like accusations of anti-Semitism are weaponized against our movements makes people not want to talk about it, makes people think, oh, like this is just a right-wing issue. Or if we talk about it, we're just lending credence

to the right. But I think that's changing, especially with the growth of the Jewish left and with an understanding that antisemitism is real and needs to be tackled. And so I think, yeah, the more the things keep changing, this conversation will be a lot easier. Yeah. Is there any other thing that you would like to mention kind of near the end of this piece? You know, anything on like the Jewish left, any other kind of closing thoughts that didn't get brought up? Oh, the only thing was I can say we spent a lot of time talking about the stake that non-Jewish folks have in this. And I think there's a couple of things that are worth considering, like we've sort of talked about, you know, anti-Semitism. One of the key features of anti-Semitism is that

it's not true. Like it's a bad actual analysis about power, state, empires, and capitalism work. So if that is sort of seeping in, this is true of conspiracy theories broadly, if that's seeping into politics, that's just a failure right there. And so it's really incumbent on people to sort of try and move past that and confront those things

because that's the only way that like social movements can actually gain kind of efficacy. And the other thing is that they're directly tied to other forms of oppression. If you look at like the all-out assault on trans healthcare and trans institutions right now, it's overwhelmingly using anti-Semitic conspiracy theories as sort of the scaffolding to hold it together. Absolutely. And this has been historically true about anti-Blackness

in the U.S. and the other forms of oppression. And so these things are intertwined. So I think it's important just to acknowledge that like anti-Semitism is not like just a Jewish problem or affecting Jewish people. It's really baked into these kind of interlocking systems of oppression. So we should see it as a way of confronting other things as well. And to make that kind of give it value or value to confront on its own terms. I think this book came out really at a moment when these conversations are needed more than ever, and also at a moment when the Jewish left is just growing by leaps and bounds. in support of Palestine, we're seeing like new generations and folks across all generations in Jewish communities who are building new ritual modalities, new modes of Jewish identity, new politics, who are really questioning old ways of doing things and really building a Jewish future beyond nationalism and militarism and connecting our struggles with all other struggles as they've long been connected, you know, like Jewish left has been around for a long time. And so yeah, we're really living at a historic moment, both around this, this issue and around all of our movements in general. So that

gives me a lot of hope. Thank you both so much for coming on to talk about these not very fun topics. I spent two hours this morning reading through the book. It was very good. I strongly recommend people read it, especially considering everything that's happened like these past eight months. I think there's a lot of very good insights in there. Where can people find a copy of Safety Through Solidarity? I think you can pick it up anywhere. I appreciate the kind of words. I appreciate you having us on to talk about it. We've been directing folks to sort of like movement bookstores, and we've been partnering with a bunch of them, you know us on to talk about it we've been directing folks to sort of like movement bookstores and we've been partnering with a bunch of them you know so i think like

local rad bookstores are always a great place we have to like actively sustain those places and be a part of them so i think that's a great place to do it and also kind of requesting them at libraries sort of like pointing folks to both of those things so that's a great way to support the book great really appreciate you having us on. Garrison, it's been a great conversation. We appreciate all the work you do. So we need to be connected. All right.

Thank you so much. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com or check us out

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs,

the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast Post Run High is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. to audiobooks while running errands or at the end of a busy day. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Listen to Black Lit on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. AT&T. Connecting changes everything. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? changes everything. Heart podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue

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