It Could Happen Here - General Strike with Kim Kelly

Episode Date: November 8, 2023

Planning for a general strike Robert sits down with labor journalist Kim Kelly to discuss UAW President Shawn Fain's plan for a 2028 General Strike.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I am good. Also hating our AI soon-to-be overlords. Yeah. Yeah, doing my best out here in Philadelphia. Yeah, yeah, Philly. How is Philly as the fall comes in? It's, it's a very sunny day. It's also getting chilly. I'm into it. It's finally leather weather. I mean, I guess it's always leather weather depending on your level of commitment, but I'm

a wuss and it's, I tend to wait for, uh, you know, the weather to tell me when it's time to break out my leather. Hell, yeah. You know, I feel like all all things are fine. Personally, you should just assume listeners that I am always head to toe leather. But anyway. Oh, yeah. He was on. He looks res a splendid. Yeah. Kim, you are a labor journalist. You published a book. What was it last year? Year before last called Fight Like Hell. Yeah. Yeah. About about the history of the labor movement and some radical moments people ought to know more about. And you and I are talking today about labor, particularly about the possibility of a general strike. Now, if you, the listener, have somehow missed this discourse, in short, a general strike is when instead of one union of workers from one industry striking, everybody strikes, or at least a very significant chunk of the labor force strikes. And this is, you know, it's the kind of thing people on the left have dreamed about for

years as like, this is what could, you know, turn things around, reduce income inequality, force action on climate change, the military industrial complex. And kind of as a result, you've had feels like every year for the last few years since people started reading about general strikes, which have occurred in a number of places and times. There's these like someone will get on Twitter and be like, we're all doing a general strike in two weeks. You know, everybody get ready. And folks will be like, that's not really how you do a general strike. And they'll go like, well, if you weren't saying it's not, it could happen. You know, you've got to believe in it first, which is all of this is wrong. But the good news is there's an actual plan that is cohesive and potentially achievable for a general strike that's been put forward by someone who knows what he's talking about.

We're going to talk about that. First, Kim, do you want to talk about why trying to get everyone on Twitter to launch a general strike in eight days is a bad idea? in eight days is a bad idea. This is such a pet peeve among, well, I guess a lot of folks in the labor world who are also unfortunately on Twitter and social media. Yeah, like you said, every so often there'll be a general strike hashtag or like a graphic on Twitter or on Instagram. And it's like, are you taking part of the general strike? Like, are you striking on Friday or like tomorrow?

Like, no, what? You're not even in a union. What are you talking about? And it's like, I love the energy. I love the vibe. You know, I love the idea of a general strike. I think it would be incredible if we actually pulled it off. But the biggest thing in there is the if followed by the pulled it off part.

And one of the biggest misconceptions, I think, is that a general strike is akin to a big protest. Like you can absolutely plan a big protest in a few days if you really want to i mean look at the incredible work that jewish voice for peace has been doing uh in new york and other places they're going to be doing in philly this week i mean it is possible to build on existing relationships and networks to create a big fucking deal of a protest but a general strike is a different beast it is a specific thing it has a definition a general strike as a different beast. It is a specific thing. It has a definition. A general strike, as you said, is when workers across various industries go on strike at the same time. And that is not the same as filling the streets for a protest.

those movements like the radical you know radical organizers who are already in community already building protest infrastructure and people in union labor world that are kind of beholden to contracts and more legal constraints but it's going to take a little bit of time it's going to take some dialogue maybe even some fruitful discourse to get on the same page like they're like we there there are laws we live in a society, unfortunately. And it's not quite as simple as just declaring a general strike when you and like four of your friends call out sick. Yeah. It's also like, I think one thing that gets lost is when you're going on strike for a lot of people, that's not just, I have to figure out what to do with money. And it's certainly not, you know, well, I can just go and be on unemployment or something

because you don't really get that when you're striking. You've got a lot of people with like families. And so the idea that like you get some podcaster, right, being like everybody should just not show up. Well, I don't know, man. There's people who got kids. They have other responsibilities than being a part of your revolution, which is not to say that I don't think like, again, we're about to talk about an achievable plan for a general strike. But one of the reasons why you can't can't pull it off in a couple of days is that you have to set you have to have some sort of plan for how you're going to take care of the people striking. Right.

Like so they don't starve and shit. take care of the people striking, right? Like, so they don't starve and shit. Yeah, that is the one of the biggest things I would say, arguably the biggest thing. But also, if you're in a union and you go on strike as part of, you know, broken down contract negotiations are part of the life cycle of a union contract, you have legal protections, you can't just be fired. If you take part in one of these kind of impromptu hashtag general strike actions your your boss is just gonna fire you yeah and then like you're done you don't have any protections there like one of the reasons that and i know it's not as much fun as just going out and saying fuck it and burning it all down trust me i would love to see that type of shit but

unfortunately again we live constrained by laws and logic. The reason that you see big labor strikes and big picket lines and all this cool stuff that's happening, it's part of a process. Those unions are negotiating contracts, these legally binding documents they're collective bargaining agreements that have expiration dates. The UAW didn't just pick, didn't just say, all right, right now we're mad, we're going to go on strike. No, their previous agreements had an expiration date, they hit the expiration date, so they start bargaining again. Bargaining didn't go well, they went on strike.

That is how it works when you're in a union. That's just part and parcel of the push and pull of leverage that workers have against the boss. And it's like a centuries-old system. There's laws, there's protections, there's a lot that goes into it. And I think, like we were saying before we hopped on the call officially, I think a lot of people haven't had union jobs or don't have a deep understanding of unions and how they work. So of course, they wouldn't necessarily know when the expiration date is for this contract or what goes into bargaining union contract. But there's a lot of moving parts.

Yeah. They might not know that as we're about to talk about, you can't just have a bunch of union leaders decide we're all going to go on strike at once. Sympathy strikes are very much not legal. Now, there is a way to get multiple. We should just talk about-straight, solid dude, Sean Fain. Big Sean. Yeah, big Sean. And he's the head of the UAW, right? Or he's the guy negotiating for the UAW. No, he's the president. Yeah, the president.

And he is – Sean is – so the UAW is one of the largest of the autoworker-related unions. And they have been in a strike, I think, primarily General Motors. It's the big three, General Motors, Ford, and Stellantis, which makes Chrysler and a couple other brands. And they have gone on a very power, about six weeks or so, very significant strike. You can read stuff like Toyota recently put out a proposal for giving workers raises that's in line with the union. They are scared. They haven't inked anything yet,

but as of us recording this, it looks like they've won on a lot, which is great. And Sean is not just a union man, but is very much talking blatantly about the class war of the rich against everybody else that's occurring in this country. And he made some statements about two days before we recorded this where he was like, I think we need to be setting the expiration date for our contract in 2028, and I want to implore all other unions that are negotiating and can do this to set that with their next contract expiration date so that in 2028, we have the option to do a general strike in order to redress some of the systemic inequalities as a result of this war of the billionaires against everybody else. as a result of this war of the billionaires against everybody else. Very much framed it in those kind of stark terms. And, you know, we're going to talk about why, but I think that's a workable plan, potentially. It really is.

It's incredible, honestly. This is kind of, I think this is one of the ballsiest things we've heard from a mainstream labor leader since, well, since Sarah Nelson, the president of the flight attendant union, kind of soft called for a general strike, or at least brought up the idea of a general strike in 2019. And if you've forgotten, that stopped a government shutdown. Yeah. So like the general strike is a very powerful tool. And we've done it before.

You know, I think the most recent true general strike we saw in this country was in 1919 in Seattle. So it's been a minute. But the genius of this plan is the fact that it's illegal. And I mean, of course, laws aren't real. But when you're doing this kind of thing and operating within these constraints, it is helpful when you're not actively breaking the law because that helps you get more shit done. Right. So what Sean is proposing is saying, OK, we're going to set our contract to expire around this time. And we want a whole bunch of other big unions to do the same thing.

Now, if all of their union contracts happen to expire around the same time, and then their negotiations happen to break down, and they happen to go on strike, at the same time, creating an actual general strike, the government can't really do shit about it. I mean, you mentioned before the sympathy strikes, solidarity strikes, they are illegal. Because of this 1947 law called the Taft-Hartley Act essentially that means if say your um your warehouse you're part of the teamsters you go on strike and then the coffee shop next door is like oh yeah we support you we're gonna go on strike too they can't do that that's breaking the law but in this different hypothetical if they their contract was up at the same time as your contract, you both went on strike at the same time, that's legal and it's also very disruptive

to that little corridor you're working in. And imagine doing that on a national level. Imagine if the flight attendants, the Teamsters, the UAW, Starbucks, fucking the air traffic controllers, the longshoremen, like all of these incredibly important infrastructure wise jobs happen to go on strike at the same time, that would shut down the whole fucking country. Yeah. And it would be legal, which is so fun. You'd love to see it. You know, obviously, when you are talking about radical social change, illegality is always on the table. But it's not the smartest place to start from when you're talking about something like this, where you have the option to get a lot done, you know, within within the protections of the law, which makes it easier to get more people on board, it makes it easier to get critical mass. which makes it easier to get more people on board. It makes it easier to get critical mass.

And if at a later date, you know, the state were to take a legal action that makes it impossible for you to continue legally, well, then you've got that critical mass behind you and potentially probably radicalized, you know? Right. And you have resources, you have infrastructure, because big unions have big strike funds. This is the thing. The UAW has hundreds of millions of dollars in the bank that they're saving for just this purpose when their workers go on strike so they can continue to pay them and cover their health insurance. Yeah. It's why you pay dues, right? Yeah. It's literally like strike insurance. And a lot of the big unions have this set up. They have comms teams, they have legal teams, they have experience. Like I know as, as radicals, like we tend to be perhaps a little allergic to a lot of those things, especially if they're not

particularly in line with our specific vision of the future, but they're really helpful to have, you know, like doing crimes is fun and I support it pretty much at all times. But getting shit done is way more fun and way more satisfying. You know, it's nice to win. It's nice to win. Unions are kind of on a roll right now. Right. We've all watched some really substantial gains for working people just in the

last six months. And it's worth paying attention to why. And part of it is that you're not relying upon people risking everything, many of whom can't, right? You can't very easily ethically defend if you are a single parent who is responsible for multiple children you can't defend going out and busting a bunch of windows and then getting locked up super easy because you do you have responsibilities you've got people to care for you know right you have elders at home if you or if you're a disabled person if you're being compromised you can't go out there and get involved in that type of situation you can't risk being around that many people maybe but you can strike yeah yeah this is that you can respect a that many people, maybe. But you can strike.

Yeah. Yeah. This is that you can respect a picket line. You can help support. You can help offer some of the resources we need for folks to get out there. Like utilizing this existing infrastructure and these existing resources, it just opens up the possibility for more people to get involved in a way that's less harmful to them, to the people. We want to harm the bosses and the status quo.

We don't want to hurt our people. Welcome. I'm Danny Trejo. Won't you join me as the fire and dare enter? Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters, to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you.

Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly.

I am talking to a felon right now, and I cannot decide if I like him or not. Those were some callers from my call-in podcast, Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take real phone calls from anonymous strangers all over the world as a fake gecko therapist and try to dig into their brains and learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's pretty interesting if you give it a shot. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's pretty interesting if you give it a shot. Matter of fact, here's a few more examples of the kinds of calls we get on this show. I live with my boyfriend, and I found his piss jar in our apartment.

I collect my roommate's toenails and fingernails. I have very overbearing parents. Even at the age of 29, they won't let me move out of their house. So if you want an excuse to get out of your own head and see what's going on in someone else's head, search for Therapy Gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's the one with the green guy on it. Hey, I'm Jack Peace Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. I'm Jack Peace Thomas, and I'm inviting you to join me in a vibrant community of literary enthusiasts

dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories. Black Lit is for the page turners, for those who listen to audiobooks while commuting or running errands, for those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge between the chapters. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Together, we'll dissect classics and contemporary works while uncovering the stories of the brilliant writers behind them. Blacklit is here to amplify the voices of Black writers and to bring their words to life. Listen to Blacklit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, so I think there's a lot of wisdom in this.

Now, the question is, when we say that this is workable, does that mean that it's a guarantee or would it be easy? Of course not. No, you're still talking about a struggle against people who have, I don't know, the majority of the resources the human race has ever marshaled in financial form at their beck and call. So that's, you know, this is still a frightening and potentially pretty dangerous thing,

but it is a workable plan that has infrastructure behind it. And that crucially, you know, the downside is that the bosses know that people are talking about this and they have time to prepare. But the nice side is that like, well, so do we.

And that's generally positive this is the thing i've seen um again on social media people saying like oh we have to wait five years or to wait four and a half years that's ridiculous why don't we just do it now you can do a lot of planning and a lot of building in four and a half years. You need that time to actually pull something off of this magnitude. And also, I mean, a lot of unions that perhaps might be interested in this, like they have contracts of their own that we need, they need to sort of work out the timing for. You know, this plan only works if we can actually maneuver away for a lot of these big contracts at big big powerful unions to expire at the same time.

If someone's contract, if the Teamsters' next contract expires in 2027, like, okay, they're not going to be able to play ball. And you really want the Teamsters if you want to play this type of game. And another hurdle that I think it's unfortunate is that, you know, Sean Fain, big Sean, what a man. He's very out there, very outspoken about opposing capitalism, about this being class war. He's on the level, but he is a rarity among major labor union leaders. Like there are some leaders that will be down to clown, you know, like Sarah Nelson's out here, like Mark Diamondstein with the postal workers.

Like there are some very cool, very progressive, if not radical union leaders out there. But there's also a lot of conservative or just sort of wishy-washy Democrats-style union leaders too that would not want to have any part of this. And a big part of convincing them to get on the level and become involved in this kind of effort, that's going to come down to what the rank and file have to say. That pressure is going to have to come up through the ranks. I mean, the reason we have Sean Fain and we have Sean O'Brien of the Teamsters

and we have this kind of newer wave of more progressive militant union leadership is because of what the rank and file have done. Like Teamsters for a Democratic Union organized for years to get that reform slate in to get Sean O'Brien in there to take on UPS. Sean Fain is the first ever democratically elected union leader in UAW's history because of a lot of organizing around reform that came from the rank and file. That took years to get him there. We would not have Big Sean if people had not invested years of their life towards organizing for this goal. We have this four to five year span where we can push our own union leaders in that right direction to plant those seeds, to try and really build something that they can't refuse to get on board with. But that's going to take time, too. I think people need to really recognize that. Like unions are not, unfortunately, they're not all like these magical progressive silver bullets. Like there are some pretty shitty people

in union leadership across the country. And we got to do something about it if we really want to get people on board. Yeah, there's, you know, upsides and downsides when we compare it to like sort of how radicals like to, particularly the anarchist radical organizing, where, you know, the downside is you do, these are organizations that are hierarchical,

that can be stratified. It can make it very difficult to push for change. It can make them, just as our democracy is not super responsive to what the majority of people want, union leadership in a number of cases is not responsive to what people want. They've also had, cases is not responsive to what people want. They've also had, especially if you go back to the mid-century, last century, a not short history of corruption, right? That's been a problem communities have dealt with in the past too. These are issues you don't have as much with autonomously organized small groups of activists on the street. The thing that makes them a lot stronger in many ways is the fact that they have more resources to marshal. They have ways of addressing grievances other than like kind of just personal conflicts that are built into the system and ways of kind of pushing for

change that if you get enough people on board with, you can make and then you have the weight of this organization with a degree of power and social cachet behind it. And so I think the ability, it's much harder to steer these things. But when you get them pointed in the right direction, they have more staying power than kind of small autonomous groups usually do. staying power than kind of small autonomous groups usually do. And I think there's a lot of potential power in that, which is why I think this is a workable plan. And this is why more anarchists and socialists and communists, everybody who wants to really get out there and cause some good trouble will say, like, you need to get involved in your union.

You need to organize your workplace. If your job is not such that you can join a traditional union, you need to get involved in your local labor community anyway and try and connect with people who are part of those unions and try and kind of get them to see the light. Talk to people, not online, in person. You got to go talk to people who are different from you, who might have different politics and try and get them to see why this is something that we could do that could help them, that could help everyone. This is something I emphasize a lot because I'm like, I'm anarchist too. I know I sound like a big old Debbie Downer right now talking about all this legal stuff, but I am also practical. And I've also spent a lot of time talking to union members who see the world a lot differently from me. Like I think a lot of my most recent impactful work is, you know, stuff I've been doing in the deep south and in Appalachia. And no one there is impressed with my guillotine tattoos. But they do see the need to deal with

this situation where all the rich people have all the stuff and they're getting screwed. That is a good starting point for a lot. Yeah. And it's easy to say, join a union. Like, not everyone can do that. But everybody can find a way to talk to somebody who's connected to a union, who's part of a labor movement, part of a labor organization. Like, we need everyone to get involved however they can. Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill.

Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter. Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience

the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of My Cultura podcast network available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly. I am talking to a felon right now, and I cannot decide if I like him or not. Those were some callers from my call-in podcast, Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take real phone calls from anonymous strangers all over the world as a fake gecko therapist and try to dig into their brains

and learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's pretty interesting if you give it a shot. Matter of fact, here's a few more examples of the kinds of calls we get on this show. I live with my boyfriend and I found his piss jar in our apartment. I collect my roommate's toenails and fingernails. I have very overbearing parents. Even at the age

of 29, they won't let me move out of their house. So if you want an excuse to get out of your own head and see what's going on in someone else's head, search for Therapy Gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's the one with the green guy on it. Hey, I'm Jack Peace Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep into the rich world of black literature. Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. I'm Jack Peace Thomas, and I'm inviting you to join me and a vibrant community of literary enthusiasts dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories. Black Lit is for the page turners, for those who listen to audiobooks while commuting or running errands, for those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge between the chapters. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Together, we'll dissect classics and contemporary works while uncovering the stories

of the brilliant writers behind them. Black Lit is here to amplify the voices of Black writers and to bring their words to life. Listen to Blacklit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I want to note a significant potential for the radicals, our kind of radicals, to be useful within this in a direct way. From just a recent example, right? In Portland, the teachers are going on strike. I believe that has happened today. And they had a big march not too long ago that some of my friends were at because they're teachers. And one of the things that happened on that march, it was the same day as a Palestinian solidarity march.

And at both of these marches that had large thousands of people, the Corkers and the security were all kind of the same folks. And they were all folks that were like, came out of the Portland radical scene, were there in the 2020 protests. Because Corking, Corking, if you're not aware,

is like going ahead of and to the sides of a protest, like close traffic briefly as people walk by so folks don't get hit by cars. It's a safety thing, right? And so people were kind of – like the people who were doing that are radicals, are members of generally like these autonomously organized groups who are very useful in helping these. um who are very useful in in helping these because you know people have experienced you know unions have there may be experience striking but a lot of unions haven't struck in a long time right because it doesn't happen all that often and even if they have most of these guys especially these older guys and ladies and and other folks these these older union members probably have not participated in a large march in the modern era of protest where

there's dangers like getting rammed by cars and stuff. And so the people who have these, the street medics and stuff who have that kind of experience, hugely useful, not the only thing. People who are striking often need stuff. Hand warmers are always appreciated. Water, warm food, things that like keep people's morale up, organizing like sympathy demonstrations like alongside strikers and whatnot to help them keep their numbers up. All of that stuff can be really useful ways for these autonomously organized kind of smaller groups of radicals to participate in a meaningful way in something like this. That's not the only degree to which that's possible, but like those are just the examples

that come to mind. We've talked a lot about legality. And illegality is also something that is very much a part of labor history. And it's present. And I would say it's future folks who are perhaps more comfortable with getting into perhaps more confrontational moments with cops who are trying to mess with the picket line or scabs who are trying to be violent towards striking workers or or even just like you said, like surveillance and safety and medic work like that is all that is all important, too. I mean, not every I've been on some pretty wild picket lines and not everyone there is really that concerned with what the law has to say about certain things once things get a little heated.

I mean, there are points, I mean, and things I've covered and we've seen this continue to happen where people try and drive into the picket line and or try to attack people in the picket line. And that is, I mean, that deserves a variety of responses, I think. And that is, I mean, that deserves a variety of responses, I think. And also something to note is that when these are strikes called by union leadership, they follow, they tend to follow a set of rules. Because predominantly, like generally speaking, union leadership doesn't want their members to go to jail. They don't want them to get in any kind of situations like that. So they'll say, you know, okay, well, you stay on the sidewalk. Or, oh, the cops said to move, so we move, or this has to be nonviolent. Or, you know, there's a, there's kind of a set of circumstances there that union members are required to follow. But if you're

there to support and you're not a member of that union, as long as you have the consent and support of the people there, you're there trying to stick up for, then you have a lot more leeway than someone that has, you know, a union leader to answer to. Like, there's a lot of creative ways you can get involved. And one thing that I think hasn't really been discussed as much in like the online discourse or whatever, but I think is important to think about, even if you're not a person who is able to participate in that on the street type of way if there's a huge strike going on in your city and you're not part of a union but you want to get involved sick outs have a very long illustrious history in the labor movement

if you happen to get sick that day what's your boss gonna do you know assuming you have those kind of protections if If you don't, then you have to make your own caveat, caveat, caveat. But if you're in a position where you can take off work that day or for a couple of days, and it just happens to coincide with that massive strike that's shutting down everything else. And if you convince all your coworkers that you're shot to do the same thing, you're not breaking the law. You're protected, but you're also part of the shutdown effort. Like sick outs, one of the reasons that people were so spooked around 2019 when the government shutdown was looming before Sarah Nelson really

brought out the big GS word is that we're seeing sick outs at airports and flights are being canceled in New York and I think LA. And that was starting to spook the people in charge because if enough people don't show up for work at the airport, nothing's going to happen at that airport. And there are a lot of different workplaces where all of their workers not showing up could be a potential problem. So I just encourage people to think creatively about the ways they can get involved, even if they can't necessarily get involved on the formal union side. There's so much we can do from each according to his ability to each according to his means. I love – it's so important to bring up airline workers because one of the things that they have that other people don't is

they can't be replaced in the same way, right? You can, if all your baristas go on strike, you can potentially bring in whoever. And they will not be nearly as good at it, right? The company will not make nearly as much money. But legally, there's nothing stopping them from doing that. If you have a bunch of ground workers call in, right, or a bunch of stewardesses, you have to replace them with people who are qualified ground workers. Like there's a whole process. There's like a series like there's a lot that they have to know how to do, a lot of compliance that has to be done because thousands and thousands of lives are at stake.

Right. Same thing with medical workers. Right. When when you've got a job where like they can't if like a bunch of nurses go on strike, well, you have to replace them with nurses, right? And there's a very limited supply. So there's a lot of leverage that these organizations have. The airline industry is incredibly densely unionized too. So if all of the union flight attendants aren't available, then no one's going to be available.

the union flight attendants aren't available, then no one's going to be available. It's one of the plus sides of having a very densely organized industry, which is why we need to keep organizing too in these next four and a half years. Well, Kim, I think that's most of what I had to say. Did you have anything else you wanted to get into on this topic before we roll out? I think we've covered most things. I do want to emphasize, like, I don't want to be a wet blanket on people who are excited. I'm so excited and so heartened to see the amount of interest

and energy we're seeing around this general strike idea. Because like five years ago, that would have, I mean, that would not have escaped containment, right? We would have just been talking amongst ourselves about it. But to have the head of a union who has 400,000 members,

who just whipped the shit out of the big three automakers, who's getting all these headlines, to talk about a general strike in a meaningful way, like, yes, maybe he's not out here throwing Molotov cocktails the way we perhaps would want to see someone doing that. But it's still a huge deal. And even if the mainstream organized labor movement isn't as radical as a lot of us within it would like to see it, we have a lot of time now to try and pull things in that direction.

I feel like a dam has burst in a way. pull things in that direction. I feel like a dam has burst in a way. And if anything, this is a moment of opportunity and of working together and trying to see different perspectives in a way that gets us all closer to the point we really need to be. Absolutely. We take all this shit down. All right. I am in agreement, Kim. People should look up your book, Fight Like Hell. Yeah, The Untold History of American Labor. Absolutely. And what else should they look up? R-E-U. I'm still unfortunately on Twitter. So I'm there, Grim Kim. I know I'm a freelancer. I write a lot for In These Times. I have a column at Teen Vogue. I write for Fast Company. And I'm kind of all over the place. And I do a lot of book talks and stuff.

So I'm around. If you want to talk to your friendly neighborhood anarchist labor reporter, just Google me. But don't believe everything you read because, you know. She didn't kill that guy. He was dead when she got there. Anyway, Kim, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Yeah, yeah.

Thanks for being here, for showing up. And thank you all for listening. Until next time, I don't know. Yeah. Solidarity forever. Yeah, that's a good one. That's a good one. It Could Happen Here is a production of cool zone media for more podcasts from cool zone media visit

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