It Could Happen Here - How to Break a Union From the Inside: The NFL Players Association, Pt. 1

Episode Date: April 6, 2026

Mia talks with Yahoo Sports writer Charles McDonald about the history of the NFLPA and how it installed a corporate consultant as its Executive Director. Cool Zone is nominated for 3 Webby Awards! Submit your votes by April 16th or we'll hunt down your family.   Behind the Bastards - https://vote.webbyawards.com/PublicVoting#/2026/podcasts/features/experimental-innovation  It Could Happen Here - https://vote.webbyawards.com/PublicVoting#/2026/podcasts/limited-series-specials/news-politics  Migrating to America - https://vote.webbyawards.com/PublicVoting#/2026/podcasts/limited-series-specials/documentary    Sources: https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/45769802/ex-nflpa-boss-lloyd-howell-strip-club-expenses-sent-investigator https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P42Wq3fmTYg https://youtu.be/SwVNM266nCM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjOpA-N24Cc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON-dN5xO7rSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I am your host, Bia Wong. And today we are telling a somewhat unusual story for this show. It's usual in the sense that it's a story about, you know, the replacement of democracy with bureaucracy, like the death spiral of business union of unionism. It's a story that's also as much about the defeat of the workers movement as it is like Lamar Jackson's counting stats, a thing that it also bizarrely is about. And this is the story of the crisis of the NFL Players Association, which is the NFL's union. and it is so unhinged that the only way that this can actually be talked about reasonably

is to bring in someone who knows ball. And that is Charles McDonald of Yahoo Sports and the wonderful Football 301 podcast. Welcome to the show. This is going to be a trip. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I've listened to a few episodes, so I was excited when you asked me to come on. Love your work.

And this is going to be a good rant because. And not even really a rent because, because honestly, like, when you, like, when you start to peel this back, it is really like a textbook case study from what we know on like just straight up organizational decay. Yeah. Like you get such a clear picture on how just really a few people, in this case, 32 wonderful owners can just completely dictate the life of, you know, thousands of people who are literally sacrificing their bodies to try and, you know, escape whatever. poverty they come from in their earlier life. So it's, uh, it's fascinating. It's sad. I mean, this is one of those areas that I have, obviously, because it's my, it's my job, but it just like extreme cognitive dissonance sometimes. Like, yeah. I love football. You know, I played from the time I was seven through college. Obviously, like, I do this work. It's kind of giving me, like,

everything. And then you have to deal with just so much that stuff that comes with. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I remember, like, covering the Colin Kaepernick season, which was 10 years ago as of this year. God. Right. Oh, Jesus. 10 years ago. Yeah. And just remember, like, seeing how alienating that was, just, like, just writing, like, a column saying, hey, you know, Washington, like, they should work Colin Kaepernick out because they don't have a quarterback.

And this guy is a startable quarterback. Yep. And you would get, like, hate mail over that stuff. But I'm still tuned every Sunday, you know? Lamar Jackson stuff. I was on the front lines for that, but still tuning in to get mine. my racist slop every Sunday. This is like the fundamental issue here.

People will still do it. Admittedly, I am mildly proud that I wasn't watching in that era, but I wasn't watching that era specifically because the Seahawks lost Super Bowl to the Patriots. And then I was like, I'm fucking out. That's off for like eight years. Well, I've been watching this stuff my whole life. Like, I remember watching, like, college football with, like, my dad and his friends

when I was, like, five and six years old. It's like, I, like, legit just don't know anything else to do you. Like I had to use this sport as like my vehicle to kind of explore the rest of the world. Like once I got out of college, just trying to figure my shit out. Yeah. And I think we have a good combination here to talk about this because you come at this from the football angle and then exploring out of the like, oh my God, this is so unhinged. Everything is broken. And then I come at this kind of from the opposite direction, which is one of the things that's been really frustrating about the coverage of this is that like, like there's lots of very good coverage.

Pauble Tori, who's done a lot of very good work about this. And it's like the guy who kind of instinct. The whole, like... Instigate is kind of putting it, is putting it lightly. I mean, he got the union president fired, basically. Yeah, he got the union president fired after it was revealed that he was using union money to go to strip clubs. Yes, yes. It's like...

That's like the tail end of this story. Yeah, that's like the end of it. That's where this is going. Right. But the thing that's been frustrating to me about this is, like, the people covering this and people have done a lot of good work, they're not people who cover unions at all? Yeah.

And that's like what I do, right? And like, I don't know. Like, I think as much as this episode is going to be us screaming about this union doing unhinged shit, like, we're obviously like pro-union. Like, I had my union that I were organized on my show to talk about our contract against you. It's like, yeah, I was a member of the first box union that launched. God damn, that's almost 10 years ago now. Jesus Christ.

I feel so old. And look, like, I believe in this stuff. Like, I, like, with the stroke of a pen, not to put it that simplistically, because obviously a lot of fight went to, but with a stroke of a pen, like, I was able to live in D.C. after being very broke, you know? And it's crazy. Like, my salary went up to a livable wage and nothing died. Yep.

Right? You know, no one died. Yeah, it was amazing. It was, it was business as usual. honestly, like nothing was weird. So obviously people who listen to the show, like you know that these people with the money, like they're out to get us, obviously,

for their own game. And it's so just brazenly clear through like this union story, especially through the past 20 years, which is where I think you kind of have to start it. I mean, just systematically stripped down. And the one thing that even Pablo on his most recent episode, because he talked about it last week, because J.C. Treter was elected.

executive director of the union. One of the villains of this story who they put back in power. Right. And, you know, one thing about, like, Pablo and Mike Florio, who have really been on this more than like any other national journalists is like,

yeah. We still don't know a big component of like the why and the how this is happening because, you know, we got to get into it. Because basically it feels like there's two, two or three guys kind of acting as liaisons to the owner while also trying to respect and, you know, run the union, which are obviously just two completely incompatible ideologies

when you're trying to, you know, work that out. Yeah, I guess that's actually a way to start talking about this, kind of going back to... There used to be a time when the NFL union would go on strike. Like, they did pickets. Like, they fought scabs outside of the gates of football stadiums. This was a thing that happened, like, regularly. Like, there's a whole bunch of stories of, like,

UMWA guys and like guys from like the auto unions like on these picket lights with the NFL players and you know like one one of the sort of upshots of this God, okay that's a terrible pun I'm realizing now because this okay.

We got to talk about Gene, you know? Yeah, yeah. Talk about Genevshaw. Yeah, one of the guys who led this union was Gene Upshaw who was a player for a long time and then was like ran the union for most of its history. And he's you know, he's running an actual union.

Like, they go on strike, they organize, they, like, do shit. And, you know, Gene, like, over the course of this runs into, like, they start losing strikes, which is just like a nightmare. And then he just, like, dies in 2008. Yeah. Like, it was this really horrible. Yeah. So, like, not only, like, like, Gene was a Hall of Fame offensive linemen.

Yeah. Like, when you think of the Raiders in the past, like, Like, he was kind of like the start of that era. Basically, the only area where we still think of the Raiders is like, you know, an entity. Yeah. That should be respected. Right, right, not a joke. Because, well, because it was a different time in the league, like, especially when we see what the Seahawks sale ends up looking like. Yeah.

And we've seen, like, the Broncos and the commanders get sold within the past decade. these teams are now being run by people who don't have football backgrounds. Like, when you think of, you know, even someone as despicable as Jerry Jones, like, you can't, you can't doubt at his heart that you know he loves this sport and will be an advocate to the sport even in ways that can be harmful to the sport at times. Oh, boy. But now we kind of have like this influx of people who don't have football backgrounds, but they have the capital to kind of get in.

Yeah. And that has also been a shift, I think just from an ownership perspective over the last few years. But when you look at where Gene was coming out as a player after he retired, in the early 80s, he kind of set the standard for, you know, he was elected, well, executive director of the union, I think, I think in the 80s. And he held that position until he died in 2008. So, yeah, he died in office, like in the middle of the thing. That's a long time and it's a lot of trust.

And also, I think Gene kind of solidified the idea, which is important now, that players should run this union, which I agree with, you know? Yeah, that's what a union is. Right. That's what the union is. And I would say even just like someone who played football by self, like, it's kind of a cult when you're in there. And you don't really, really trust the outsiders to understand, like, what is going on here on a day-to-day basis. And also, when you look at, like, the start of this union back in the 50s, training camp used to be free for the owners. They didn't get paid for training camp or preseason games.

They played six free preseason games. Yeah. And didn't get paid for training camp. It's unreal. Right. Unreal. Like, you can, like, you can get serious. Like, people every single year get really, really seriously injured.

Like, in trading camp and in preseason games. And there was no free agency. Right. So, like, the team that drafted you, like, they own. you until, you know, you're ready to call it quit, so they trade you somewhere else where they cut you. And you kind of got to figure it out. But, like, the idea that you could just, like, have this agency and leave and your contract

expires, you can go sign with someone else. That was not a thing. So obviously, when you think about where football is now, like, what I tell people is, like, when they ask, like, why should I care about this union? Okay, think about how bad it is now. It can get worse. It was worse. It was worse.

It was significantly worse. But, you know, you have, like, this idea that. And it's a correct idea because the players are the basis of it that this person in charge of the union needs to be a player. And Gene, like coming from his background with the Raiders, we were talking about this proud football organization. Like the very like material basis of being an NFL player was extremely important to Gene. So, you know, up until he passed away in 2008, I mean, he is, you know, like you said, he's leading strikes. he's fighting for more revenue, he's fighting for, you know, more benefits on the back end

after guys retire. And it kind of culminates in the 2006 CBA. I would say this is kind of like the Empire Strikes Back moment for the owners. Because in 2006, the players and the owners, they sign a CBA that on the surface granted the players a 60%, 60% revenue share against the owners 40%

when you start actually digging the numbers. Yeah, that's not fake as fuck. It was fake. It was fake, right? So I'll say this. It was fake in the sense that there was something called like a revenue credit or a revenue tax or something that the owners took off of the pie before I went down to like the 60-40 split.

Right. So, you know, and it started, you know, in 2006, like I think the first time they cut it, it was like, you know, $800 billion. And then, you know, within two years, they were taking well over a billion dollars before it got passed down onto the players. So, you know, the players that got 60% of the total revenue, but by the time, you know, that they, the owners took a second look at that CBA and they used their opt-out clause in 2008. It was functionally like a 51 and 52% split in favor of the players, which the owners deemed completely unacceptable, right? Yeah. Like, and it's so funny because, like, this is, this is like the first part, like, where you.

you start to see, at least in this era of football, like you get to see how greedy these people are, right? Where you're already taking a top off of like this, quote, unquote, total revenue. And then you're pulling the clause in two years to get out of this. So in 2008, the owners say we are going to get out of this. And now the CBA, instead of like the 10-year clause, it's going to expire at the end of the 2010 season. So they had two seasons to kind of figure out what was going to happen next.

But unfortunately, in 2008, Gene Upshaw gets pancreatic cancer and honestly just deteriorates pretty quickly and passes away right before the season. So, hey, listeners of this podcast probably know, what do billionaires do when they see a powder vacuum at the top of their labor force that they are actively fighting against? They pounce.

And you have this vacuum of leadership and then DeMoor Smith gets voted the executive director of the NFLPA and the owners at the end of the 2010 season, they locked out the players. And that's where things are really starting to hear. Canadian women are looking for more. More to themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders, and the world are out of them. And that's why we're thrilled to introduce the Honest Talk podcast. I'm Jennifer Stewart. And I'm Catherine Clark. And in this podcast, we interview Canada's

most inspiring women. Entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, politicians, and newsmakers, all at different stages of their journey. So if you're looking to connect, then we hope. hope you'll join us. Listen to the Honest Talk podcast on IHartRadio or wherever you listen to your podcasts. I'm Lori Siegel and I'm mostly human I go beyond the headlines with the people building our future. This week, an interview with one of the most influential figures in Silicon Valley, OpenAI CEO Sam Alman. I think society is going to decide that creators of AI products bear a tremendous amount of responsibility to products we put out in the world. From power to parenthood. Kids, teenagers, I think they will need a lot of guardrails around AI.

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Listen to Mostly Human on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. You know Roald Dahl, the writer who thought up Willie Wonka, Matilda, and the BFG. But did you know he was also a spy? Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been. Our new podcast series, The Secret World of Roll Dahl, is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary, controversial life. His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful Americans. What?

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July 2003, Councilman James E. Davis arrives at New York City Hall. Hall with a guest. Both men are carrying concealed weapons. And in less than 30 minutes, both of them will be dead. Now everybody in the chamber is ducked. A shocking public murder. I scream, get down, get down. Those are shots. Those are shots. Get down. A charismatic politician. You know, he just bent the rules all the time. I still have a weapon. And I could shoot you. And an outsider with a secret. He alleged he was a victim of flatdown.

That may or may not have been political. That may have been about sex. Listen to Roershack, murder at City Hall, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You're dealing with that amount of greed where they're already taken off the top. And then they say, that's not enough. So we're going to rip up the CBA. And the funny part was the 2010 season, like the last year of like the ripped up CBA. since they didn't have an agreement on the next year,

there was no salary cap for the 2010 season. And Jerry Jones, owner of the Cowboys, and Dan Snyder, owner of the Washington football team. Oh, God. What are the worst people ever, by the way? This is that we don't have time to do this, right? But like, one of the worst people ever.

So, like, if you played Madden before, you know, sometimes you might turn off the salary cap. And what do you do? You spend. And because Jerry has always been like, it's my money. Yeah. I'm going to spend as much of it as I want to. if I please, like within the rule is the salary cap.

No salary cap, Jerry's going to spend. And the other owners punish those two with fines after the season for, you know, spending recklessly. That's how committed they are to like this consolidation of power. They will punish each other over it. Which, which by the way is unhinged because like, so what of one of the fundamental, like, issues of the NFL is that it is a monopoly. Yes.

Now, the way they get around this is, A, they have the union and B, the teams are supposed to be, unquote competing with each other, and they are not supposed to, quote, unquote, collude against the players. And it's like, okay, you fucking find guys for paying people like. Right. Right. You find each other for paying people. Yeah, which is like just unreal.

It's just like the most obvious exclusion. If you look across like to the NBA where like the Kauai Leonard and Steve Ballmer stuff is going on. Oh my God. Another parolatory exclusive. Right. Another Palo Taur exclusive. But hey, there's a reason why they aren't aggressively going after this, you know, because the other billionaires don't want people rummaging through their shit either.

So, you know, and hopefully they like the Microsoft guy being part of the gang. So they're not going to do anything. And that's when you see like, oh, wow, there's so much power here that these guys have. And, but going back to the NFL, like the 2011 CBA is. By the way, CBA is collective bargaining agreement. This is the agreement. The collective bargaining agreement. Right.

Yeah, between the union and the league. Right. So if there's no agreement, then, like, they can't play football games. Yeah. Because, you know, like you said, like the NFLPA, functionally just exists so the NFL doesn't get sued for, like, antitrust stuff. Yep. Which takes us right back to the next point. So going back to 2011, the players are trying to figure out, like, what are we going to do about, like, this lockout situation?

Because they need to work, honestly. Yeah. You know, this is a career that you can only do for most guys, like, two or three years. And the idea of missing a season is not really feasible, which the owners, you know, they take advantage of all the time. Like, they know that these guys are on short, like short clocks. If you get to like year five of an NFL career, you are in a very, very small group of players that like, honestly like just represent the elite of the elite of people who have ever played football like in this country. And I think everything about this too is like that's really important. this is an unbelievably, unbelievably skilled labor force.

And in order to develop these skills, you have to devote your entire life to it. Yes. And then what you get from devoting your entire life to this thing that is killing you because you're getting injured constantly and you're getting head trauma from all of this every single time. Like, from high school, you're starting to get brain damage from concussions and from, like, you're starting to get CTE. Yeah. And then you have a couple of years to like make money from having devoted your life to this thing. Right. So think about like, it's March of 2011 now. Gene Upshaw has been passed away for a couple years.

They were fully in the DeMoor Smith, in the DeMoor Smith reign of union leadership. And the first move that the owners make, like now that the CBA is officially over following the 2010 season, they lock out the players, which, as we just said, if your career is two years, the idea that you would miss one of those years is kind of unfathed. Yeah. Your earning power is just like the model. And let's say you're 24 years old. You got to play two years in the NFL. You're walking out with, let's say a million in your bank account. You still got to get a job, bro.

You know? Like, you still got to find something else to do. So, like, this isn't money that's going to set you up for the rest of your life for most these guys, even though it does give you, like, a nice cushion to fall off to, even if you're someone who struggled a little bit. I mean, shoot, I know when I was 24, I would have loved to have, like, $700,000 in my bank account. Yeah.

Things would have could have turned out. you know, maybe a little bit different. Probably still would have found somewhere where I'm right here, but honestly, it's a good start. So what the union did was they decertified as a union in 2011,

led by Tom Brady and Drew Buries. I'm a Falcons fan, and I will say this part has given me so much justification on my hatred throughbies. It went past the football into like the material

realm of like real life. You you guys messed up here. They tried to, you know, challenge the league by decertified as a union and arguing, you know, that now this is an antitrust situation, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You get down to August, the time of 2011, CBA in August of 2011. So like this is a month, a month before the season. And the concessions that were made after, like, after getting locked, out for what, six, like five months?

Yeah. And you decertified that you go through all this work to try and get a deal done. And they gave up so much. So we said before, you had the total revenue split at 6040, but functionally it was closer to, you know, 51, 52% in favor of the players. That dropped to like 47% in the 2011 CBA. So now the owners are back in charge, like a 53% revenue split. in favor of the owners.

So, like, you're, you just gave them back, like, billions of dollars, like, over the course of, really, really just, like, a couple years, but over the lifetime of a 10-year CBA, I mean, that, that's, that's egregious. And also, another thing that changed was, Roger Goodell has now, like, full autonomy over player punishments. I don't know why you gave that up either. That's unhinged. Right.

That's like, like, that's a kind of thing that like, the only kind of unions that would sign something like that are like, like, I don't even think the organized crime unions would sign it. I think that's just like literally the fascist unions and the unions that are directly controlled, like the yellow unions that are directly controlled by corporation or like the only ones that would sign that. Even, even those ones probably would want to still have like some involvement in that. That's like unbelievable for a union contract. Just like, nonsense. Right. And what's changed here is like, these players are not willing to go on strike, like to not play these games, to not have a situation like in the 80s where, you know, Donald Trump is building up the USFL and saying, hey, why don't you striking players like come play over here? And you had some guys who were like NFL Hall of Famers who had briefly played in the USFL during, you know, during the strike stuff.

That doesn't happen here. And think about the timing. Yeah. August, what was it, August 4th, 2011, 132-day lockout, they sign this deal. So I can imagine, and I'll, like, I'll give them this. It's hard out here, man. Like, you're about to, you're looking at, like, the consequence of, you know, I'm about to not have checks and I maybe have a lifestyle where I am still,

should be getting, you know, these weeks will be paychecks. That's kind of a tough, tough draw. So I will give them, like, the small grace of saying at that point, point, man, okay, fuck it. Just let's just go. Just get something signed. But what they gave up, I'm not sure, like, they were fully aware of what they gave up

here. And the part of the biggest thing where they gave up was part of the biggest thing. After they, after I say, they gave the money back to the owners. They gave Roger Goodell. They made them dictator in terms of, like, the punishment workforce. But the rookie wage scale was a

massive, Holy shit. Massive concession to ownership. Yeah. Because they, as in like Tom Brady and Drew Brees, more so Drew Brees from what I've gathered, kind of frame this as,

hey, why are these rookies getting all this damn money? Like, this is something that should be going towards the veterans. And ownership was like, oh, you see that? You think? Like, you think that's a good idea? Yeah. We could agree to that. And what they got back was like less practice,

so, you know, you don't have to have as many two a days. Man, that's worth billions of dollars, really? Like, in terms of, like, what you guys can set yourself up with? And what the veteran players who were on board with this, what they thought was, oh, okay, well, if the rookie wages deal, like, if that gets capped at a certain amount, then that's more money for us. So, like, the prime example is, in 2010, San Bradford was the number of overall pick to St. Louis Rams.

he signed a six-year $84 million contract. Though the next year, Cam Newton is the first overall pick to the Carolina Panthers. And after this lockout ends, his contract was four years, $22 million. Fully guaranteed. She's correct. You lost $60 million in terms of value from a year before. So what the veteran players thought was, oh, okay, well, now there would be this influx of cap space to sign veteran players. What do billionaires do when they suddenly have assets?

access to a cheap workforce. They just loaded up on rookies. Right. So these veteran players, they sold themselves on, like, the fallacy of trickle-down economics and got themselves replaced out of the league. So the only people that this benefited really was people like Drew Brees, people like Tom Brady. People who don't need it.

Right. But also are so indispensable to their organizations that they can eat up the camp space that was left over from the rookies getting signed. So that's like that's when you start to see like the quarterback contracts balloon up. Yeah. Where you know, you go from like in 2015, 11 years ago or 2016, I think, Cam Newton signed a contract that made him the highest paid quarterback in NFL history at five years, $100 million.

Oh my God. You know. And now that number is what like I think, man, who's the highest paid? Is Joe Burrow the highest paid right now at like. I feel like it's borough. Yeah, that sounds right. But now like that deal is. worth, you know, closer to $80 million, you know, $70 million a year than it is to anything,

like closer to 20. Yeah. So you gave up so much and you got this whole middle class of the league just decimated. And, and, like, that's still tangible today. You can just go on overthecap.com or spottrack.com and just look at like average money, like, per year. And there's a top. And then the middle class is literally like a couple players.

and for quarterback, it's like two or three guys. Like, you'll have like, now it's like a Malik Willis or a Daniel Jones, like 40, like, as crazy as to say, like, $44 million. Like, that's outside the top half of what guys are getting paid. And then it's all rookies. Yep. Like all rookies and guys on rookie contracts. Yep. There's no middle class.

Like, that's gone from the NFL. And with that, like, you lose some of like, personally this might be like, you lose some of like the wisdom that comes with that of guys who have played. Because now they get, now they're getting churned out so fast because the contract is so cheap. Yeah, I'm not going to extend you because honestly, this game beats her body up so bad that it's better just to get a fresh body in there. And these people, they have no attachment to the sacrifices that have been built over a long time. So you kind of build this player force that doesn't know what's going on. And I say that with a grain of salt now because I used to be one of these guys like, oh, you know, they don't care what's going on. And there is a good chunk that don't care what's going on.

But I think now it's more clear there's like an obvious force, stopping them from getting like information about what's going on with this union stuff, which is the meat of this, like the recent stuff is just like the ultimate just bucket. I guess we're pawns of the ownership stuff, you know. Canadian women are looking for more, more out of themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders, and the world are at them. And that's why we're thrilled to introduce the Honest Talk podcast. I'm Jennifer Stewart.

And I'm Catherine Clark. And in this podcast, we interview Canada's most inspiring women. Entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, politicians, and newsmakers, all at different stages of their journey. So if you're looking to connect, then we hope you'll join us. Listen to the Honest Talk podcast on IHeartRadio or wherever you listen to your podcasts. I'm Lori Siegel and I'm mostly human. I go beyond the headlines with the people building our future. This week, an interview with one of the most influential figures in Silicon Valley, OpenAI CEO Sam Alman.

I think society is going to decide that creators of AI products bear a tremendous amount of responsibility to products we put out in the world. From power to parenthood. Kids, teenagers, I think they won't need a lot of guardrails around AI. This is such a powerful and such a new thing. From addiction to acceleration. The world we live in is a competitive world. And I don't think that's going to stop, even if you did a lot of redistribution. You know, we have a deep desire to excel and be competitive and gain status and be useful to others.

And it's a multiplayer game. What does the man who has extraordinary influence over our lives have to say about the weight of that responsibility? Find out I'm mostly human. My highest order bit is to not destroy the world with AI. Listen to Mostly Human on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. You know, Roaldol. The writer who thought up Willie Wonka, Matilda, and the BFG.

But did you know he was also a spy? Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been. Our new podcast series, The Secret World of Roll Doll, is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary, controversial life. His job was literally to seduce the wives

of powerful Americans. What? And he was really good at it. You probably won't believe it either. Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you. I was a spy. Did you know Doll got cozy with the Roosevelt's?

Played poker with Harry Truman and had a long affair with a congresswoman. And then he took his talents to Hollywood, where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock, before writing a hit James Bond film. How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's author ever? And what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids.

The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote. Listen to the secret world of Roll Dahl on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Five, City, All Building. 40 caliber handgun was recovered at the scene. From I-Heart podcasts and Best Case Studios, this is Worshack, murder at City Hall. How could this have happened in City Hall?

Somebody tell me that. July 2003, Councilman James E. Davis arrives at New York City Hall with a guest. Both men are carrying concealed weapons. And in less than 30 minutes, both of them will be dead. Everybody in the chambers ducked. A shocking public murder.

I scream, get down, get down. Those are shots. Those are shots. Get down. A charismatic politician. You know, he just bent the rules all the time. I still have a weapon. And I could shoot you. And an outsider with a secret. He alleged he was a victim of flatdown.

That may or may not have been political. It may have been about sex. Listen to Roershack. Murder at City Hall on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I think the arc of this is like it's the arc of sort of unionism in America. You know, you go back to like your early 1900s unions, right? And those unions, you know, they're unbelievably powerful.

They're extremely dangerous. You know, you get to a point where like the IWW will show up to a town and like the bosses in the town will show up with guns and shoot them. Because they're that well organized. They're that dangerous. They're that capable of striking. They're that committed. and they're that able to tap into all of their members and have everyone in the union be a part of the union

and do things with the union. And that's how you can actually do collective action. And you can watch this with sort of like with the ability of the NFLPA. Like obviously like that's a much weaker union than you're like, I don't know, you're like 1930s, CIO or whatever. Yeah, yeah.

But you can watch it like sort of decay into this sort of, you know, what you call like a service union where instead of it being run by the players, there's like, okay, we have some people, they're going to do everything for you, they're going to sometimes talk to you about it, but, you know, like they're going to be the runs like managing all of the contracts

and all of the negotiations and like... And as it like information circle gets tighter and tighter, you know, that makes it way easier for things to just get completely fucked. And then, you know, and this is one of the things that you see in the 90s is the complete dominance of business unionism. And we're just like,

nah, fuck it. We're a union. Yeah, right. Us and the employers actually have the same interest and we're going to work with them to make money. And it's like, how's that going for you guys? And then that's what this sort of turns into. And one of the issues here, and you're talking about this with like the information control

is once you get into this situation where, you know, a really, really small number of people, like we're talking maybe 30 people and then the executive committee is even smaller than that are the ones who are, you know, one of the things that happens in the later part of this is so J.C. Treader who's like the guy behind the scenes for like the executive, the search for like the executive director, the guy who like completely

truly was like the most hideous guy I've ever had running this union. He changed the process so that it was completely confidential to the point where the 32 guys on the board who were supposed to be voting for the executive director didn't know the names of the candidates

until they walked into the meeting. Right. What the first? Fuck. And to me, like, that point is, like, so crucial because that's why I said from, oh, it's not that you guys don't care about this. Like, they don't know what's going on. Yeah.

It's being hidden from them. They can't know. They can't know. And I will say, like, part of what makes this difficult if you are someone in there who does care and wants to fix things is there's just the truth that, like, even the bottom wrong players are comfortably living, like, off of their salaries. So when you start to get to. guys who are veterans, like, man, like, even if you don't take the best deal, shit, like,

well, I still, I'm still making $15 million a year. Like, ultimately, I'm still good. And that's what is hard to, like, get people galvanized about this sometimes. But I think that that part about, like, players not caring has kind of been overrepresented a little bit because I think if you're paying attention now, there's so much murkiness. And I think when, when you get to the, Like the recent CBAs, like in 2020, the COVID-year one, so now that's like DeMore Smith and J.C. Treter, who was playing for the Browns, then he was the president of the NFLPA as they enter like this, this 2020 CBA at the end, after the end of the 2011, 10-year run where for 10 years,

they locked themselves into owners just being able to extract, like as much value as, as it seemed like they possibly could at the time. And then 2020 comes. And the owners are basically just like, hey, there's going to be another lockout. unless you guys agree to a 17th game, which you should say that, okay, cool, because there's no circumstance

where you can walk football and know how the horrible this game is for your body and say we are going to play more football without like major concessions. Yeah. Because I remember when that was going on,

you know, I was talking to some older guys who weren't in the union anymore, but they were looking at it like, man, like, if they're going to say 17th game, like we need something massive, like giving back to what. Well, on the other hand, because that's just straight up a revenue play to get more games on TV and make these TV contracts a little bit more lucrative and that didn't really happen. You know, like, they just gave up the 17th game.

And they got, I think, 1% more in terms of the rev shares. So it got to like 48 or 49%. It's like, man. Like, that's it? You know, 1% rev share for adding, like, what's the percentage of games that added to the season? Like, right. And like there were some concessions made to like players made at the bottom rung of the ladder.

So like like the veteran minimum salaries like they got boosted. The practice squads got a little bit longer. And now you got into the space where you see like veterans can be on a practice squad instead of guys who are within like three years of, you know, accrued years in the NFL. But the 17th game while still having inequity in terms of the reference. revenue share. I mean, the owners, they'll sign up for that every single time. Oh, you, we got to throw your crumbs. Yep. And we still get to keep our billions. And they timed it up, right. So that 17th game being inserted into the schedule was lying up with new TV contracts

with ESPN and NBC and Amazon, everyone you see. Like, throwing cash is so understated. Like, it's not throwing cash, like billions of dollars is going to the NFL through these TV deals. Like, like, Like, it's funny, I had a friend, you know, one of these, you know, Shador Sanders stands. He was arguing with like, oh, you know, he was like, oh, you know, like the Browns, like, they took Shador because they need the jersey sales. I'm like, dude, Shador could have the number one selling jersey in the NFL. And Jimmy Hasl doesn't care about that. No. That's a drop of a drop of a drop in the bucket for like where the money is actually coming from.

And that's the TV deal. So to get that 17th game is huge. And this term is for 10 years a year. So in 2030, they can look at, you know, renegotiating and trying to figure it out. But in the meantime, like, to even call this a union is so far away from, like, how it's actually functioning. Now I was getting to the part, like, where it's kind of murky on what's happening. Because obviously, like, if you're in a union and, you know, like, my coworkers, like, they've dealt with J.C. Trader.

Like, I've seen him speak before. If you're in a union, obviously, like, you don't want too many people outside of the union to know what's going on. Like, it's just not good from a standpoint of, like, leverage and power. But J.C. Treader, like, he plays off of that by keeping everything a secret, you know? Yeah, which is a terrible idea. Which is a terrible idea. Like, yeah. Well, it's good for him.

Right, right, right. Maybe you don't want to tell me a reporter, like, what's going on, but you should tell, like, the other people within your union what's going on. So, like, when you see, like, a lack of information about, or any information about, like, what's going on with these, these elections. elections, it's because no one's being told what's going on with these elections. And that's how you end up with Lloyd Howell, which is just... Oh, God. Okay, okay. Let's talk about Lloyd Howell, who is... Oh, my God. Yeah. One of the worst people to run a union I have ever seen. Yes, but it's purposely bad, you know?

Yeah. The Lloyd Howell, like, secret election. Like, it's not even about to say, like, I'm not even about to say, like, of, you know, somewhat of a secret. No, a secret of election, basically, to get Lloyd Howell hired. Lloyd, what did he suffer for Booz Allen, man? Yeah, he was, he was the CFO of Booz Allen Hamilton. Right. But, like, his background was in Busting Unions.

Uh-huh. Right, that's his background. Yeah. And this, but this is where you get, like, such a look at the ideology of something like Dacey Tretter, who also studied labor unions in college. That's what he guys degree in. Labor Religious. and labor arrangement from Harvard.

Yep. Yeah. You're not doing the labor relations degree to like be in a union. Like the people who like organized for unions are like fucking grad students who, you know, have like a, I don't know, like they have, they have some random degree. And then they were like, fucking I organize my grad student union. I'm going to go organizing the field. This is not what you go into that. You go into this to do union busting.

Yeah. So, but so J.C. Tredder and, you know, the people around him. they viewed that experience from Woodhulling busing unions as a positive. Yeah. Because, you know, there's this train of thought like, oh, well, you know, well, if we know someone who knows how to destroy us

if we hire them, surely they will change their ways and they will start to help us. Like, we're going to get inside knowledge on how to bus a unit so maybe we could weaponize that and turn it back the other way. Man, that's dumb as hell. Why would you? Like, that's, oh, my God. Right.

And not only that, but Lloyd Howell, who is elected, the executive director of the union, is also a part of a hedge fund that is investing in NFL teams in minority sticks. Yeah. The Carlisleau Group. Like, you, your executive director of the union works for hedge funds that are extracting value from these teams. Like, like, players. Yeah. That's disqualifying. Like, it should be disqualifying.

She's on camera. The union posted a video of him on camera talking about how he was talking to the owners about letting the investment group in. Yeah. It's unbelievable. It's as close as I've ever seen outside of, again, a union that is literally run by the bosses to like my union guy works for management. Like it's like. It's like. I don't know.

It's like, it's like state integrated CCP shit, right? Like it's like. Dude, yes. You have a corporate consultant. Yeah. Is your union. liaison to 32 billionaires and Roger Goodell. Like, yeah.

It's completely incompatible on like a basic, like ideological level. And then you start getting to like, well, okay, well, now he has like direct control over people's lives and the funds of the union. Yeah. Which as ESPN and Pablo Tori found out, he was using to go to the goddamn strip club in Miami. Yeah. And to spend on other stuff.

And also he was sued for sexual harassment while he was at Booz Allen. So he's hidden like the checkmarks for everything you see like corporate sociopathy, right? Yeah. And they're like, that's our guy. That's our guy. Once all this stuff comes out about how he spent his money and, you know, how he's misappropriating funds, that was what got him out more so than like the material practices that he exemplified while he was running the union, which involved hiding the fact that the owners were colluding against them.

It is completely unhinged. And unfortunately, the other thing that's unhinged is that's going to be all for today. However, comma, there is more to this story tomorrow as we finish part two of this interview. And oh, my God, holy shit. Somehow, the worst is yet to come. So join us for part two tomorrow in which question mark. There seems to be good evidence of the NFL paying a guy specifically to be able to keep control of the union? Oh dear. So if you want to find more of Charles McDonald's work,

you can do so at the Football 301 podcast and at Yahoo Sports, rewrites the column four verts. It's quite good. You should listen to it. And yeah, dear God, I don't know, it formed unions. If you're in unions that suck, make better ones. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Coolzone Media, visit our website, Coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for it could happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening. I'm Lori Siegel, and on my new podcast, Mostly Human, I'll take you to some wild corners of the tech world.

I'm about to go on a date with an AI companion at a real world cafe right here in New York City. There's no playbook for what to do. when an AI model hallucinates a story about you. Mostly Human is your playbook for how tech can work for you. Anyone can now be an entrepreneur. Anyone can build an app. And it's very empowering. Listen to Mostly Human on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. You know Roll Doll. He thought up Willie Wonka in the BFG. But did you know he was a spy? In the new podcast, The Secret World of Roll Doll, I'll tell you that story, and much, much more. What? you probably won't believe it either.

Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been. Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you. The guy was a spy. Listen to the secret world of Roald Dahl on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

How could this have happened in City Hall building? How could this have happened in City Hall? Somebody tell me that. A shocking public murder. This was one of the most dramatic events that really ever happened in New York City politics. I scream, get down, get down. Those are shots.

A tragedy that's now forgotten and a mystery. That may or may not have been political. That may have been about sex. Listen to Rorschach, murder at City Hall, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Ellen, correct? I doctored the test ones.

It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Gillespie and Michael Mancini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences.

Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.