It Could Happen Here - Huxley's Utopia, Ft. Saint Andrew

Episode Date: February 25, 2022

Saint Andrew joins us for a discussion comparing Aldous Huxley's final book 'Island' vs his seminal classic 'Brave New World.' Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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is the podcast that you're listening to. All right, St. Andrew, that's my job done today. Why don't you take over? Good job. I'm proud of you. Thank you. All right, St. Andrew, that's my job done today. Why don't you take over? Good job. I'm proud of you. Thank you. Welcome, everybody, to another wonderful episode of It Could Happen Here.

Today, hoping to take a look at another book. Well, two books this time. This time, works of fiction. book well two books this time uh this time works of fiction and this time by an english unfortunately writer named aldous huxley right we'll be looking at island and brave new world the sort of twins of speculative science fiction i would say aldous huxley was uh like i said an english writer and philosopher and he actually wrote a lot of books um 50 in his lifetime to be precise he was also a french teacher who interestingly enough taught georgewell. I did not know that. Yeah. But from what his past students have said,

he wasn't a particularly good teacher. Okay. But he was a good speaker. He was also a very, very big fan of psychedelics and mysticism and philosophy and particularly like Advaita. I don't know if I pronounced that correctly, but Advaita Vendatta,

which is like a Hindu spiritual practice. Yeah, I know. He's even referenced a lot in like occultist and chaos magic books written like post the 60s. Yeah. Yeah. He's like that guy.

What's his name again? Alan Watts. Oh, yeah. He's like's like um that guy yeah it's like his name again alan watts oh yeah kind of guy yeah also very interestingly um huxley actually had lsd injected into his veins it's amazing yes he was like, he was dying as you know, one does on their deathbed. Sure. And that is the traditional thing to do. Traditionally. Yes. But while in the process of dying,

because he had like advanced laryngeal cancer, he had to write to his wife, Laura. He was just like LSD, 100 intramuscular. She's like, okay. Hell yeah. She injects him. she's just like okay she injects him and she doesn't inject him

and she doesn't inject him with one dose she injects him with two doses and then he dies like several hours later incredibly based what a way to go staggeringly based and honestly if he was like

speaking on his deathbed I would really love to know like what that experience was like are you just like dancing through hell like what's going on I mean I can see it being the most amazing thing and also extremely bizarre

and slightly terrifying right as a general rule thing and also extremely bizarre and slightly terrifying. Right? As a general rule, when, like, they've done studies on, like, giving different kinds of psychedelics, usually psilocybin mushrooms to people who are on hospice, and it

generally reduces their fear of death. Yeah. They go in peace. Yeah, it just makes them like, ah, you know what? Everything is the same as everything else, and we're the imagination of the universe. I'm going to go back into space.

Yeah. Which is fine. Good for them. Yeah, good for them. Good for them. If I were on my deathbed, I probably wouldn't want to be thinking about death either. So, yeah.

I mean, that assumes that we get a deathbed. That's the kind of wild thing about death. You don't know when it's going to happen. But, to return to the topic of discussion, Brave New World and Ireland, right? To summarize the plots of both I guess I'll start with Brave New World it is the more famous of the two I don't think a lot of people have heard of Ireland

compared to Brave New World I read Brave New World in high school but I have not read Ireland exactly and it really says a lot about society that we read about the dystopias but not the utopias. But anyway, Brave New World, you know, it's really up there with like 1984 in terms of, you know, it's notoriety.

It is like one of the quintessential dystopias. It's set like several hundred years into the future. Unlike 1984, which took place in 1984, which is several decades ago. Brave New World was set in 2540 CE. So several hundred years. Star Trek times. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. But however, in the book, it isn't called 2554 CE. It's called 632 AF. AF standing for after Ford, because in this world,

and I'm sure we'll get into this a bit. Henry Ford, the assembly line guy, the novelty guy, he is basically God. He is the God of their world. Yeah, that wouldn't be ideal. They say things like, by Ford's name and that kind of thing. And his whole sort of assembly line structure is basically extrapolated to society as a whole, right? belongs to everyone else and you know there's children are created in in like factories and generated to be part of specific classes whether it be alpha beta gamma delta or epsilon so it's like it's kind of like what's what's what's happening today you know in terms of the greek

alphabet um we have the alphas who are bred to be like the leaders and stuff and you have the epsilons who are bred to be like the menial laborers and you have the folks in between and like they are literally conditioned you know so like in the factory in the baby making factory which is in this case literal and not a euphemism for the womb um you know they they like hold back on oxygen or they apply certain chemicals or certain hormones in order to like condition people so they don't do like genetic um like coding whatever they just they do a chemical concoctions in those sort of test tubes and yeah i mean the story of the world is really how it's affecting like some of the top level people within it

and sort of contrasted with sort of reservations that exist in their world where people are a bit less restricted um and it ends pretty tragically. But the next book also ends a bit tragically. The next book being Island, which is like the utopian twin for Brave New World. In a lot of ways, in terms of mirroring a lot of the same themes that Brave New World explores. Right? mirroring a lot of the same themes that brave new world explores right so in island there's this specific island called pala which is um fictional i mean there was an area in india called pala but the island of pala in this world is like it doesn't exist right and it's basically seen as this oasis of happiness and freedom

and where its inhabitants have resisted capitalism and consumerism and technology right then this journalist another british guy named will farnaby um pulls up on their island and he's basically trying to scope out the island for exploitation because he's friends with this industrialist who's trying to like extract oil from the region and um while he's going through the island and really going through the society going through the book there are a lot of monologues and stuff i mean this book is kind of heavy on like the monologues and the discussions it's kind of like alice huxley's soapbox for all his ideas just laying them all out there right so will enters palace as a cynic but by the time he comes out

he's like he's had like layers on layers of epiphanies and i don't know for those who have been reading Dawn of Everything recently in chapter 2 the authors David Wenger and David Gruber they sort of outline some of the discussions that were happening between Europeans and

indigenous Americans at the time of arrival and how those discussions were shaping both um but primarily the europeans view of society interestingly it's kind of like reflected here because you know i had this white man who pulls up with all his english ideas and it's basically these indigenous inhabitants in parla basically deconstructing his ideas through dialogue um and through debate and discussion and um unfortunately it doesn't end very well despite you know being convinced of the purity and brilliance of the palanese way of living um he already made the deal with the

industrialist and pala um is has basically been sold by a neighbor by a neighboring country and so its downfall is now sadly inevitable and that's how it ends oh and also um will farnaby kind of has like an lsd well it's not really ls, but it's like a psychedelic trip. Yeah, it's like a combination of mescaline and psilocybin, almost. Yeah. In true Alex Huxley fashion. Yeah. Yeah, there's like a lot of the tropes and themes that were present

in Brave New World exist in Island, but as their inversion. So in terms of Brave New World, it's written before huxley had uh psychedelics it was like his his version of drug use is so different in that book it's more like a pacifying drug um whereas the drug use in island is more like an like an enlightening drug so like but there's a whole bunch of themes that like parallel but are also inverted on each other yeah exactly exactly and we're gonna get into those themes just now but to summarize brave new world is basically humans becoming less than human

because of all these technological uh and sociological efforts, whereas Ireland is like the opposite, where it's, you know, humans are able to come into the fullness of their humanness while still using science, except in a way to enhance their quality of life. I don't know if I missed any aspect of either plots

that any of you want to like touch on real quick no no not really okay yeah i mean i will say the one thing that's interesting is because uh brave new world also has this sort of like weird like going to a reservation plot that's like yeah yeah kind of a b plot but you see sort of it's another one of those things that's kind of like i don't know if inverted's the right word but the sort of context of it is very very different in island than it is in pivny world yeah yeah because mean, in a sense, you have this outsider protagonist who is introduced to this alternate way of living and is transformed by it, you know.

Except in Brave New World, you know, he ends up killing himself. And in Island, well, he already sold out the island, you know he ends up killing himself and in island well he already sold out the island you know i will say um one criticism that i want to get out of the way before we get into like the concepts and you know how they might apply to politics as a whole really is huxley like a lot of authors and thinkers and ideologues of his time has this very unsettling fixation on overpopulation it's kind of like what we were talking about with the last book we discussed here. This sort of weird fixation on oaf population and, you know, people dying out and that kind of thing. In Parler, in Ireland, there's a sort of acceptance of oaf population as something that needs to be,

you know, avoided. And so I guess it brings us to the first theme, which is the use of contraception in both books, right? Like on one hand you have in Brave New World where there's like mandatory contraception and people are literally not allowed to like naturally give birth. You know, they have to have babies through test tube. Whereas in Parler, you know, there's reproductive education and reproductive choice and expressive sex. And it's really like a complete contrast welcome i'm danny thrill won't you join me at the fire and dare enter nocturnal

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Available on the iheart radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast so i guess i want to do something like uh i like speculating and thinking about how anarchy would operate um i think there needs to be a lot more of that in terms of um creative works and discussions i mean like there was at the cafe by mario tester and there are some like utopian fictions out there but and like less than utopian but still interesting explorations of anarchist societies like ursula kirkwin's the dispossessed it is interesting to me that even in mainstream sort of imagining whenever there's an attempt to envision a utopia there's nearly always a lot of anarchist principles involved in that yeah it's basically impossible to imagine a utopia without aspects of anarchist theory making it into it exactly

there tends to be like some elements of anti-work in there and like you know like youth liberation we want to be post-work we want to be post-hierarchy you know freedom of association yeah there's a yeah yeah yeah yeah and so i kind of want to look at that look at these works through that lens as well here, mostly Ireland considering Ireland is a bit closer to anarchy than Brave New World is

yeah I'd say so just a little bit yeah yeah like when you look at how sexual liberation is treated in ireland it is pretty much an echo of what anarchists were saying about free love in like the early 20th and like late 19th century yeah particularly like emma goldman like free choice and

contraceptive access and that sort of thing reproductive choice free love it's really in parlor i would see um they have this sort of um elements as well of like communal child rearing i mean in um which is another thing i spoke about that in like my video in december on the family like the fact that humans basically evolved in an alloparental arrangement in a cooperative reading arrangement yeah because of capitalism has moved away from that yeah there's a lot of if you if you study how kind of different societies that were not capitalist handled child rearing there's a lot of like very interesting i think my favorite is it was some indigenous group in um south america whose like cultural belief was that um you didn't you didn't have like one man have sex

with a woman and that like leads oh yes yes it starts the process and so once you've started the process of making a child the woman then is going to pick out all of the guys that she thinks have traits that she wants to be like part of the child she's making and has sex with them because you're like gradually building the child exactly by having like adding additional sperm to it which means that when they have the kid all of those guys that she had sex with pregnant have a responsibility to rear the child and teach it things which i think is uh objectively the best way to treat kids i mean even on like yeah it's that's such an interesting metaphysical concept in terms of like what constitutes like even like the the idea

of genetic makeup because even though it's not literally true it still is like if you can convince yourself of that in your head then it kind of is physically true and it will be true enough for the kid because if they're raised by all these different fathers and all you're looking for is pattern

those fathers' traits are gonna manifest in the child anyway because they were raised by them therefore it's like a self-fulfilling kind of therefore i think we should all agree to just act like it works that way yeah yeah but i mean like and also like in terms of like the group living in island versus like brave new world brave new world it's always like you don't you have group living because you've lost like the idea of individuality right versus group living in island is more like you know how like anarchists have like group homes and they get that's it's very similar to group living allows you to be the best version of yourself because the best version of yourself exists in a community

yeah exactly as opposed to there's like there's a barista or whatever there's a kind of like like a jokey version of this i think about a lot where it's like if you see a block and – like you're looking at like a black block, right? It's like the way you can tell that there are Maoists involved is if you see a bunch of people actually like legitimately wearing all the same thing. It's like – it's really – like it's extremely rare that like – even when you're doing this for security reasons that you can get a bunch of anarchists to actually literally all wear exactly the same thing because it's like it's like yeah you have this sort of like i mean okay this is this is not like always true but like it's it's i don't know you you you have this thing where even when you're like even when anarchists are like trying to sort of like fade into a single mass it's like we like you literally can't do it because everyone has this sort of like this individual

street I've definitely seen people be bad at block more often than I've seen them be good at it yeah it's like I don't know which I mean like the actual hiding part of it yeah yeah but I don't know like it's it's like it's it's there's there's there's a way

of sort of egalitarianism in sociality where like you treat everyone as if they were exactly the same and like and you know and there's models of this where it's like yeah it's like okay you actually try to like force everyone to be exactly the same everyone to be exactly the same in the class and like that sucks and you shouldn't do it and the alternative to that is everyone is just sort of like in a group but they're all like i don't know i'm not entirely sure if this would make any sense but it's i don't know there are ways you can have within a group thing yeah yeah it's like like the the purpose of the group is to like maintain like you know make like maintain the differentiation of the individual yeah to foster what makes individuals really good at being like their own person and give them the tools that can you can set that up yeah i think

like culturally we have like problems thinking about that because like the sort of american version of individuality has to do with like no no you're an individual because you have no connections to anyone else and it's like well this sucks it is bad yeah because and that kind of goes back to the whole spoon building a baby concept right i didn't think i would ever use that phrase but individuals only individuals because their combination of influences are unique to them yeah well not just that i mean obviously there's a genetic component and i'll know a lot but i think a key aspect of it is that you know because we are raised in these different environments surrounded by different people we have different experiences that's what builds us up yes you know like i can i can already name off the top of my head like a

bunch of like defining moments from my childhood that basically changed my course. The one time I got cyberbullied and that basically shifted my perspective and my approach to the internet and that kind of thing. You know, it's like it really I really can't imagine how someone could

come away with the idea that an individual is just an individual on their own. Yeah, they just pop out and are that thing. Yeah. I mean, yeah, because a large portion of you is built up of previous you, and your previous existence is what makes a large portion of yourself. And sure, you can say you have a little bit of ego from the start,

like your actual self-self, that contributed to the way you interpret events, which then will, in turn, build your personality. But I think these things are not opposing. These things work in tandem. But yeah, yes, it is the whole group-living component. And also, in that group-living component, you notice at one point in the book,

one of the children, like basically in passing mentions that, you know, they don't want to go by a certain person because they're mad at them or whatever. And so they basically have that freedom to remove themselves from that situation and go and sleep at another house or another

space until that sort of situation is resolved. And I think that also would really be a crucial element of anarchist society, particularly for children, having that freedom of association and freedom of movement because imagine how many abusive situations could be avoided or remedied if children had the ability to come out of it you know we strip children of choice and that's what allows these sorts of dynamics to persist yeah which then leads to dynamics that persist in the next generation and so on and so on it's this thing that's having a resurgence in the united states right now and is like at the core of all of the book banning and the anti-trans legislation which is this idea that like

kids shouldn't have a choice because that would interfere with parents having absolute control over the life of their child and that includes the control to like if a child says I'm this or I'm that the parent can say absolutely not yeah exactly if you sort of like tool with like

someone from the past or someone who lives in like a cooperative reading arrangement that the child is the parent's property entirely. It would look at you like real funny because the child is part of the community. It doesn't belong to anyone. If it belongs to anything,

it just belongs to the community as a whole. Yeah, as we all do. But, yeah. Another element I think i find um i find really interesting in the way that palnese society operates is that and i guess in comparison to brave new world unlike in brave new world where drugs are used like um like i was saying like how drugs are used for pacification and control and self-medication that kind of thing to sort of like chill you out and prevent you from basically going mad in a mad society um in parlor you know drug use is used for bonding and for enlightenment and for

social connection and social cohesion it is really interesting that that he changes what drugs do in his books like after he starts doing them yeah exactly exactly yeah and i actually don't know you know i used to have, because I had the opposite arc with drugs, where I started doing them when I was very young and had the belief that, like, they were kind of inherently this mind-opening tool that could be used to expand the borders of reality within human beings. And as an adult, in part through some of the research I've done on the far right, come to understand like, no, you can also use them to reinforce the very limited, terrible things you already believe in.

And there are folks who do that quite effectively. It's like that sort of PLU esotericism. Yeah. I don't know if I just made up that term. No, I like that term. I was thinking of like... It's an accurate term to describe the thing we're talking about.

Yeah, I'm taking it. Okay. But yeah, I mean, that is absolutely correct. Because, I mean, yeah, like those sort of psychedelic substances and stuff, yeah, they can open your mind, but they are ultimately drawing open your mind, but they are ultimately

drawing from your mind. Drawing from your past experiences and beliefs in some capacity. The way I always describe it is that psychedelics are an accelerant to the fire that you've already built and they can make it flare up and it can be really cool and awesome

and it can flare up and be utterly terrifying and be like, oh no, oh no, no, no, cool and awesome. And it can flare up and be utterly terrifying and be like, oh, no, oh, no, no, no, no, no. But it's always kind of amplifying the things that you've already built through like the kindling of yourself. Yeah, psychedelics do not create things within you, but they can lead you to realize things you wouldn't already realize, or they can lead you to reinforce things you wouldn't already realize or they can lead you to reinforce things that you're already doing and it kind of depends on what you go into it with it's like you know leary said i think it was leary the set setting and dose and like your mind set

is one of the most important things for what's actually going to happen when you when you take psychedelics yeah and if you're a Nazi you can get better at being a Nazi from taking acid if you're a Nazi you're going to see Hitler pull up on you like yes my son continue the good work that's the thing a lot of people don't understand when I've tried to talk to people

who are like really obviously pro psychedelics and like yeah they're so freeing they make you think about new ways and then I explain to them this isn't an easy segue but if somehow the conversation goes to the point of me talking about all the nazis who do psychedelics and and then like do like weird esoteric rituals while doing like psychedelic drugs it can like confuse these people because like how could you be a nazi while you're you know in that mindset

and like well it's actually for all of, for all these reasons that we've discussed, it can actually assist within that like fantastical genocidal conspiratorial thinking. It can really give that a lot of credence in someone's brain. Because if you've spoken to someone who has taken psychedelics and have had a specific kind of experience, you can't talk them out to that experience yeah as far as they're concerned that is that is solidified in their mind you know this is reality i just had a glimpse of reality kind of thing you know yeah absolutely absolutely yeah it's one of those like if you want if you want an illustration of how psychedelics do not work the way some people claim uh just make a note of the

fact that at every street fight between fascists and anti-fascists in portland both sides every single person had fucking weed on them like the the fucking the the far right like smoking pot as much as everybody else. They just also do cocaine. Yeah. Whereas Antifa does ketamine. Yeah. Yeah. Antifa does ketamine.

The Proud Boys do cocaine. And they both have weed. Everybody's got joints. And both people, and people on both sides have dropped acid and taken shrooms. Yeah. I can say this from a point of journalistic certainty, because during one of the rallies where there was a permitted event at the federal

park, the police were there and telling people they could not take weed onto the federal park because it was federally illegal. And every, like, both sides, people were like, alright, shit. Like, we're turning back because they couldn't walk on with the weed in their pockets.

Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures.

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Or wherever you get your podcasts. That's going to open up a whole kind of wound to me. I don't know if you all saw this tweet I put out recently. Like, there's still this resistance to drugs, and particularly to, like, cannabis. And you would think that, you know, after decades of research and decades of understanding, and really decades, not even decades, centuries of its use in various, you know,

religious and spiritual practices that by now you know in a post-colonial country would reach the point where you know we let it go and we decriminalize it but although we're kind of in the process of it we still have this situation where the police are like constantly burning down like fields of cannabis like they pull up and they're like we just seized and burned down like one million dollars worth of cannabis yeah and arrested this point where um basic basic like plants and herbs and medicines and whatnot are still facing this stigma it's not grounded in any sort of reality or logic you know it's just colonial era prejudice. But that was a brief aside.

Yeah. I don't think I have much left to see about Ireland and Brave New World. Well, you know, listeners, go home, put on some Hitler speeches, drop some ass and see where it takes you.

Absolutely not. That is the worst idea. not do that go to the woods go do do basically literally anything else besides that specific thing it's that specific thing that is like different people can can disagree no like that is like one of the worst things to do to your own brain and psyche. Absolutely not. Yeah, just do whatever, guys. Literally anything else. Watch Star Trek. Put on off the air. I have watched a lot of Star Trek while tripping. See, there's so many better things to do than that thing you've set.

Mm-hmm. Go watch the movie Conspiracy starring Kenneth Branagh. See, that could... Take a shitload of mescaline that could be funny they already know what masculine is neither instructions do not compute if if acid made time different what yeah that's kind of I mean, mescaline is like the active thing inside peyote. Yeah, mescaline is, as a psychedelic, the most intense time dilation I've ever experienced where you will feel like weeks have passed and it's been like seven hours. What? It's pretty dope.

I definitely recommend mescaline. Everybody go take mescaline. I didn't know we already got that. Everybody go take mescaline. Even if we already got that. Well, if you – there is a way to get the cacti, which are legal pretty much everywhere because they're just cactuses and a lot of people use them decoratively. And then using a – what do you call it? A pressure cooker. You can get the mescaline out of the cacti.

I've known people who have done it. I have not personally done it, obviously. That would be a crime. We would never advocate that. Yeah, but there are ways that a person with minimal resources can get mescaline out of the right

cactus. People have done it. Criminals have done it. Bad people. There's this thing called tor yes because obviously criminality is morality anyway uh yeah all right saying andrew that was awesome i'm gonna go read island now um it's it's a good book new world and i haven't read this i would recommend i guess at the end of this i am

kind of bummed that as as imaginative of a guy as he was his this was his final book story well and his utopian story had to end with it being crushed essentially by industrial capital expansion yeah and like co-option i mean like it like, it is interesting. Again, this was his final book. This was, like, his, like, send-off in a way. There's an interesting component to it, though, right? Because, like, in Ireland, yeah, it's like

a utopian society, but there is a king and a queen mother, but not... They don't have, like, the kind of power that you know we would typically um bestow upon kings and queen mothers you know they're still they're still able to destroy the society ultimately by collaborating with the military dictator neighbor and the industrialist oil guy but i mean they are not really that involved in the day-to-day run

into their society you know like parlor would be the same with or without them and interestingly the reason they were taking part in the destruction of palestinian society is because they were educated in europe by christians and then went back to palo yeah it's interesting because he's kind of playing with it sounds like the same thing tolkien was because like jr tolkien at the end of his life kind of identified himself as like this weird sort of monarchist anarchist where he wanted there to be he thought the ideal society was one in which people could not exercise power over each other. But there was a little hierarchy in that you had a king who couldn't actually do anything, whose purpose was to act as a figurehead. And I don't entirely get what he was going through here.

He wrote a lot on the subject himself. And it's interesting that Huxley is kind of playing with the same idea, but is obviously being like, well, this is a bad idea. It could only work for so long, yada, yada. I don't know. I find that compelling. Again, I want to read this, and that's something I may dig into more, is kind of like how Tolkien conceived of the ideal sort of monarchy versus how Huxley was thinking about it. I think that's kind of interesting. Yeah. Well, that's going to do it for us here.

And it could happen here. Garrison? Tor.com. No. Sponsored by Tor.com. No. Just drop some acid and Google Hitler. Again.

Seriously. Don't. Don't. Don't. Literally do anything else. Don't do that. The woods are lovely. The beach is magnificent. Talk to the ocean. It's so much better.

Go up a mountain. You could go and roleplay as Moana or something. Yeah. Go to a comic con. Literally anything. My suggestions. I'll talk about that experience at a comic con. Literally anything. My suggestions. I will talk about that experience at a later date.

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