It Could Happen Here - Indigenous Leadership on International Environmental Issues

Episode Date: June 20, 2023

James talks to leaders from the Southeast Alaska Indigenous Transboundary Commission about mining, salmon, and the importance of indigenous voices in climate change discussions.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Okay, hello everyone. It's me, James, today, and I'm joined by three guests, all members of the Southeast Alaska Indigenous Trans Boundary Commission. What we're talking about today is accepting Indigenous leadership on issues of climate change and issues of more broadly ecological damage. And specifically, we're discussing an emergency declaration that they recently released about the state of the Pacific salmon population, if I'm not mistaken. So I'm going to ask each of them to introduce themselves. If you could give us your name and any relevant affiliations that you think listeners should know, that would be wonderful. Hello, my name is Kirby Moldo. My ancestral name is Hapwalaqsa.

ancestral name is Hapwalaqsa. I am from the Tsimshian people in what is now known as Northwest British Columbia, Canada. My mother is Tsimshian, my father is Gixxan, and I am from Wilp We Get, which is the house of the night drummer from the fireweed plan i am also an independent consultant and contractor and i look forward to our discussion today thank you thank you hi i'm louis wagner jr from metlaka Alaska and i'm takeequiddy of the Brown Bear clan from Cape Fox, San Yukon and I have lived in Metlakatla my whole life of 75 years and we're connected to the Unique River through my grandmother and

she was born at Cape Fox and we've been on the Unique River ever since I was big enough to go with my older brother and so I've been up there since like 1960 Wow and my brothers was up there close to 20 years before that. So our family has always been on the Eunuch River to harvest at the fish camp up there. And we'd fish the Olegans, bring the Olegans home to the people and catch canstacks and metal cattle, and then people would send them out to the west coast. So we're very connected. We go up to the eunuch in the spring for hooligan

and the fall for hunting now. They used to do the salmon up on the river with the fish camp. I served on our community council from 2000 to about, I think, 2015 in there. And now I'm their tribal rights representative for the community. And I report back to our council after each of our meetings. Thank you very much. And Guy, would you like to introduce yourself? Yes, my name is Guy Archibald. I'm the executive director of the Southeast Alaska Indigenous Trans Boundary Commission.

We were formed about nine years ago by a commission of 15 sovereign tribes in southeast Alaska reacting to, you know, a huge amount of mine development and further potential mine development going on in the transboundary watersheds that drain from British Columbia to Alaska. I used to work at the mines. I'm an environmental chemist by trade. I help tribes monitor their own environments and their food security through science. And yeah, I'm looking forward to this discussion as well. That's a fantastic setup for all of you. Thank you very much. fantastic setup for all of you thank you very much so i think we should begin because maybe people may have missed the the extent and and the severity of the emergency with salmon populations

and so perhaps we could start out by explaining like how it how it was it seems like louis you have a lot of experience there uh and then what has caused things to be a situation they're at now would that be a good way to go about it yes that would be a good way where we are at now on this the salmon is that bruce jack mine started on the river and none of us knew about it until way late. Summer's around the mid-90s, 1990s, and by 2000, especially in the spring when we'd be up there, the hooligans were starting to disappear. And then in the fall, moose hunting, the salmon were were disappearing and there's a lot less bears and moose now where the river along the riverbank would be full of um the parts of the fish that bears didn't eat there would be so many bears and fish and now you don't smell any of that, and it's really affected the king salmon.

They completely disappeared for at least six years that my son and I noticed. They spawn up on the river there, and as we always pay attention, we check on the main spawning stream of Kingsbury where they spawn. And the last three years, we've been starting to see some come back. And that Bruce Jack mine, which found out later, they were putting their tailings into a lake up on the mountain there. And then, you know, as they filled it up and the rain filled it up, the overflow came down into the river. And the river is so shallow, it's only a few inches deep and it's not very wide. It's the smallest river out of the Stikine and the Taku there.

And so any pollution in that river will completely kill it off. The salmon runs their way down from what we've seen through the years. But it's also the wildlife that's disappearing with it because the feed isn't there. There's not the amount of seagulls, a lot less seals and sea lions. It's affecting on the food chain, everything. lions it's affecting on the food chain everything yeah um i spent a little bit of time in your part of the world just uh pack rafting and hiking and things and certainly like it's a it's a very beautiful place but it's a very like a fragile one too as you've explained like these minds can

very quickly have this effect that cascades up the ecosystem could you explain a little bit of the role that salmon play not just in the uh in the provision of food for the for the animal life of the area but also like the the role they play traditionally in provisioning and feeding indigenous people well yeah we um you know we put up a lot much sake as we can and then and king salmon and a lot of it we'll fish and get during the winter to eat you know and just get them fresh because they don't keep as well in the freezer but as indigenous you could you know look in our pantry and see we've lived the same life as I grew up with my parents and grandparents. Nothing has changed for us. We've taught our children the same way, how to harvest and take care of the fish.

of the fish. Back in the 50s, when I was a little kid in Matlakatla, Alaska, hardly anyone, if they even had a refrigerator, they didn't have freezers. So they had to smoke the fish really hard and they put them in those things, they're like four gallon coffee cans to um with newspaper on the bottom and on top and they would keep through the winter they wouldn't wouldn't get moldy so that that was their the main staple for the for the whole year is it a situation now that like people just can't rely on salmon as a staple food because of the mining tailings reducing the population yeah without any hardly any king salmon coming in there's you know a few from the hatchery out there but even in kitchikan they've closed the king salmon derby King Salmon Derby for, I think it's into its fourth year now. So it's just, if that other big mine goes in, the river will be destroyed. And it's going to flow all the way out into the ocean here,

into Clarence Straits and Dixon Entrance. There's been no avoiding it. It's got nowhere else to go. It comes straight out through the West Beam Canal and then East Beam Canal. Kirby, I know you're not quite in exactly the same place, but can you explain the situation with the salmon population where you are?

Yeah, and maybe I'll give a little more context to that. I live in northern British Columbia, northwest British Columbia, in the Skeena River watershed. And over the past probably 30 or 40 years, we've seen an extreme decline in salmon, but specifically sockeye and king salmon, as you guys call it, we call them spring salmon over here. But we've seen an extreme decline in returns. our commercial fisheries and our food fisheries until which time we feel that the returns are sufficient enough so that we can continue to harvest. So we've got the Tai'i Test Fishery at the mouth of the Skeena and they do a count every year throughout, starting in the spring and throughout most of the summer, they do a test fishery and they estimate the amount of salmon that are returning.

And we do not fish, as I said, commercially or for food until we feel that the numbers are sufficient that have gone past that fishery. There are many obstacles that face salmon today, most of which are a result of human activity, logging, mining, commercial fishing, oil and gas. And we all have to take a little bit of responsibility for that because we all enjoy those resources and we use them. And I've always said to people that we can't mine our way out of this global warming and climate change. We have to learn how to use less.

And as I said, mining, obviously, it's a big concern, but there's also logging, there's oil and gas, as well as commercial fishery. There's a lot of things that happen out in open waters in the North Pacific that can be changed fairly easily. There's a fishery right now, I believe it's Area 104, Right now, I believe it's area 104, a fishery that is targeting pink salmon. But by our estimations and by estimations from Alaska fisheries, they are the bycatch for Skeena salmon.

Skeena sockeye salmon that are returning to the Skeena is about 470,000. Now these are sockeye that are a bycatch. We're not asking this fishery to stop, we're asking this fishery to be more of a terminus fishery, which means that they better target the pink salmon. So right now they're fishing in open waters, approximately half the fleet from what I understand. We're not asking this fishery to stop. We're asking them to move inside so that Skeena and Sockeye can go past this fishery. And right now we are just barely making our escapement every year that make it up into the headwaters where they can spawn.

And so you know there's a lot of different ways we can address the issue of salmon the issue of salmon declining in numbers. There's some low-hanging fruit. There's a lot of other things that are going to take a lot of time to enforce, but I'm hoping as Transboundary Nations we can come together to work towards making sure that salmon have a fighting chance. Salmon are very resilient. They're a keystone species, and they're a good indicator of the health of the environment and surrounding areas, as well as the water. Yeah, I think that's an excellent summary. Thank you.

And perhaps, Guy, you have a little bit more experience on the industrial side of things. Thank you. And perhaps, Guy, you have a little bit more experience on the industrial side of things. I guess, can you explain how it is that, on the face of it, because Louis was saying the tribal nations weren't aware that this mine in one case, or certainly like these other practices, right? Some of which are sort of very nebulous, like global warming, others which are specific, like this sockeye bycatch and the forestry. Were the nations in question here, the people whose ancestral and current homeland this is happening on, not consulted, or was there insufficient explanation of the consequences

when these mines and forestry operations were opened? Certainly, especially early on. And to this day, they the right of free entry which means somebody could be sitting pretty much anywhere in the world get on the internet and claim a mine claim without any kind of notification to the land owner or surface owner by swiping a credit card oh wow. So there's no even requirement for notification on that. And early on, the mining companies, they do a investor presentation. Here's what they're doing in Las Vegas and New York

and this and that. And then they attempt to come into the communities with that presentation. And what they might call meaningful engagement is actually, one, it's completely one-sided. It's not respectful of the process within that tribe or that community. And it's completely tone deaf. And so what engagement, what consultation does happen is incredibly inadequate. To make matters worse, the Alaskan tribes are landless communities.

We don't have jurisdiction over a land area. And great work is being done, though. We're not starting from zero here uh first nations out on the land through land guardian programs and more doing great work southeast tribes monitoring you know their ecosystems and food security and fish consumption and all that great science and information. But we do need to incorporate one, we need to recognize that we can't manage a complex organism such as a watershed by dividing it down the middle

under two different jurisdictions. We have to, I don't say move the border, we basically have to erase it. And we need to treat that ecosystem as a whole um climate change is having a huge impact uh the chinook or the king salmon or the spring salmon they're the largest so they have the largest egg they have the less surface area in the environment to absorb oxygen. So they're kind of an indicator of the first, you have a problem here, kind of red flag going up in your network complex ecosystem. And both Kirby and Lou were right. It's the crash of the entire network that

we're seeing. Salmon is just an indicator of that, but we're seeing it across the board. And it's unfortunate because here, especially right now in Southeast Alaska, where I live in Juneau, Alaska, prior to European contact, there was probably five times the population living here than there is now. You look at maps of the old village, they're everywhere. And they've been there for tens of thousands of years. They managed to do it sustainably, do it with balance, do it with effective, you don't really call it in management, but in engagement with nature. And so here we are kind of on the front lines of it. And strangely enough, we have the solution. And the people who have within their oral history, the stories of migrating due to climate change of adjusting their life due to climate change, it's in the history, or, you know, the current oral history. And so when we're looking, when we say unify here, there's a great voice in the indigenous people to if there is. And it's hard to justify with mining. I'm just going to say that because it's an inherently extractive down to the last profitable dollar industry.

It's not sustainable. It's it's reducible constantly as it operates uh and uh and now it's being used to justify climate change adjusting to climate change is now being used to justify more mining which again as usual is going to fall on the backs of the local people and communities and indigenous people. Yeah, it's shockingly similar to the issues that we see where I live, which is at the other end of the United States and on the southern border where the Colorado River is a binational river, right, which is managed by two countries kind of in aggressive competition.

And we're seeing the same thing here right just a different states yes yeah different states yes yes and all of them have competing i was rafting the colorado river last year and i've paddled the colorado river but the the change in that river ecosystem that i've seen and i've only lived in the US for 15 years, is remarkable. And I can't imagine what it's like over 75 years. And the same thing with mining, actually, we're seeing the justification of very damaging lithium mining, right? And then being told this is a solution to climate change, and then whilst also destroying these ecosystems. If people think it's just an issue that affects one group of people

in one group of the part of the world, it's not. It's very universal. And that's just in the United States. We see the same thing in places I've traveled for work in East Africa and in South America. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. You know that rush of endorphins you feel after a great workout? Well, that's when the real magic happens.

So if you love hearing real, inspiring stories from the people you know, follow, and admire, join me every week for Post Run High. know, follow, and admire, join me every week for Post Run High. It's where we take the conversation beyond the run and get into the heart of it all. It's lighthearted, pretty crazy, and very fun. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora, an anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you.

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perhaps one thing we could talk about when we talk about that is I think when people think about specifically British Columbia and Alaska they they people will use the term like frontier or wilderness a lot right which erases the fact that as guy mentioned and both of you have shared with us that people have been living there for tens of thousands of years in a way that that was sustainable right like these weren't places without human beings. It wasn't empty land. And it was just land that was inhabited by people of European ancestry. And so when we talk about like how to go forward with this land,

why it's important to listen to the people who have always been there. Is that a good framework? All we have is our stories and how how we grew up with the old folks and um we were lucky to have a rowboat and pair of oars back in back in the 50s still late 50s some of the people started being able to get a little three horse johnson something like that and that was a lot of power but we also um the glaciers have melted away up on on the eunuch river there so that really affects affecting the amount of water flow and the level of the water very important to a lot of us yet to live live the way of life that we've always lived.

All the testimony that I have done is not serious because I don't have a college education like that. It's just, that's what they want. I mean, the people, they learn it from school books now, but they've never lived a life and been on all these different areas the beaches you know and we have all our seasons every season we have something to look forward to it's like right after i'll start with the spring on the hooligans and then seaweed and king salmon is a big thing to go after. And then we have, you know, the summer and then into fall.

Yeah, also we have the greens called asparagus, wild asparagus. We're harvesting all the time. asparagus. We're harvesting all the time. Our children that we have, they all know how to do it, where to go. So we've been continuing doing in our teaching on our side. We're just they don't want to take us serious i guess anyway so

but i've been you know been to a lot of meetings and talked about a lot of the stuff here and it's just it's going to be a shame if we we just keep losing everything we're we're getting very close salmon are getting a lot less i've been a commercial fisherman my whole life. And then later, as the kids got older, we went into tendering. We just had family aboard. And, you know, we would get loads after loads through the 70s into the 80s and 90s. And then pretty soon you could see the saners are coming in with less and less fish. And just Ooligan alone, I've been 15 years up there for the Ooligan in the spring and

get out of school for a little while and to go up the river. Ours, from Matlakatla, Alaska, up to the Unique River is river a little over 100 miles so we have a 200 mile round trip to get up there and back and there's no safe harbor there it's wide open to the weather so you have to really best to learn from somebody who's been up there a few times and few times and you know they know where you can maybe duck out of for a safe spot and easy to get hurt on the river because it's so shallow. Yeah we lost the 15 years on the river that's what it was due to weak runs and they disappeared for a while they were going up the other streams to get clean water, even on what I call Revilla Gagato on Ketchikan Island.

They went up there one year, and it was a really good run. But then they'll go through Beam Canal and the other streams when they have to. Lilligan are pretty smart. They don't have to go back to the same river all the time we'd have to go through the canal and check the other places where they might go up but with the salmon they need that clean river because they won't go up any other river and their numbers really

have dropped. I used to see king salmon, you know, probably as far as I could reach, which is about six feet, in spawners in the river. And three years ago, they were maybe long as one arm. I couldn't find any real big ones in there. But it was good to see some of them coming back. But that won't last long. Things continue to go the way they are.

Yeah. It's very sad to hear these changes you've seen, I suppose. like this uh yeah this these changes you've seen i suppose so perhaps you could explain to us like there's this emergency declaration that's been made right and we've heard um louis explained like very eloquently how how this how he's seen this decay over his life um how can like accepting this leadership right there's this emergency that that's been declared i guess like um is it is it possible you said salmon were very resilient and said the uligum were very smart can things return to the way they were can we at least stop things getting worse like and how yeah i you know i think um our relationship

with the environment is is broken um i'm a communication specialist that's that's what i do so i i am all about relationships um now when i talk about relationships i'm just i'm not talking just about relationships with uh our fellow human beings but i'm just about relationships with our fellow human beings, but I'm talking about relationships with the land, the water, the air. And I like to simplify it for people. I always tell people, you know, when you're in a relationship with a significant other or a pet, you know, a lot of people have pets.

It's a reciprocal relationship. There's a lot of people have pets. It's a reciprocal relationship. There's a lot of give and take, and there's a lot of compromise. And as a young boy and growing up in Giksan territory and in Tsimshian territory, I was always taught that you only took what you needed and you didn't you didn't take any more and you respected all living things um you know i i don't mean to pick on anybody but sport fishing um is is against our laws you know we we don't play with fish it's it's it's just something we do not do um and and when i'm talking about our relationship with all living things, you know, the land, the water, the swimmers, the two-legged, the four-legged, the ones that fly, our relationship with them is broken. You know, we used to harvest a lot more than we do now. You know, in the Skeena watershed, you know, we used to harvest seals.

We used to harvest, you know, a lot more things other than just salmon. And what we've done over the last 50 or so years is put so much pressure on salmon that they just can't sustain it. You know,

you know, I might not be very popular for saying this, but, you know, we used to eat a be very popular for saying this, but you know, we used to eat a lot more seals and, and I think we should commercialize a seal hunt, um, and, and sell those products so that people can make money and people can be fed. Um, I'm not blaming the seals for, for the decline in salmon. Um, there's a lot of, uh, factors at play when it comes to the decline in salmon there's a lot of factors that play when it comes to the decline in salmon but what I'm trying to explain is that our relationship with the environment is broken

and and we need to fix it and and it's out of balance right now and we need to bring it back to balance and we just need to consume less certainly yeah and does that um i'm curious that that sort of like heavy emphasis on salmon is that because it was very commercial so people would be able to harvest just the salmon and sell it as opposed to harvesting these other animals that they were harvesting before i think i think uh salmon were very plentiful right you know you hear stories about when the Europeans first arrived, you know, they could, I've heard stories of them, you know, putting a bucket into the water and pulling the bucket out and it would be just full of salmon,

right? So I thought, I think that, you know, there was a mentality that, you know, the resource was infinite, right? It would last forever. I think that was the mentality. And so they just harvested as much as they could, as fast as they could and sent it around the world. And if any of your listeners haven't tasted salmon, it's one of the most flavorful things you will ever taste. And it's the best meat in the world on the planet for you in terms of nutrients and such.

And, you know, it's totally natural. And, yeah, it's just all around good for the environment. You know, it feeds the birds, the two-legged, the four-legged. It even feeds plants, you know and uh it's it's so resilient and we just need to give salmon a chance and uh figure out a way forward where where we can have a reciprocal relationship with salmon and the environment yeah and perhaps like are there concrete steps uh like a lot of our listeners are not in the areas where you are but they think and they could be all over the world right but are there things they could do

to show solidarity to give you support and how can they help um well i would encourage encourage everybody to you know visit our website and and kind of understand what we see as a pathway forward for remedying this you know it's it's you shouldn't come to the table to complain about a problem unless you have a remedy proposed here and and that's what we're trying to do we're trying to take that knowledge that um is in you know louis and just in the eunuch and the knowledge in every little stream, even the knowledge within the genetics, that fine grain of every salmon that goes up every little stream and get that incorporated into, you know, the, you know, into an engagement process

that ultimately the way we've been doing it is a failed experiment. We can call that now because these methods we put in to try to protect wild salmon, we've seen nothing but wild salmon decline. You asked if salmon are resilient. They very much are. They very much are resilient. There's a reason there's five species of salmon here is because of all the are resilient. There's a reason there's five species of salmon here is because of all the upheaval, seismic upheaval living on the Pacific Rim. They're very resilient to the occasional large impact. Just like you and me, though, we're very unresilient to constant pressure and stress. You know what it does to your digestive system nervous system everything your family life it's the same for these ecosystems it's not the occasional huge

impact it's the it's the continuous stress and this area was not it's not really pristine it was highly modified by the people. They actively engaged with their environment. They enhanced salmon streams and resting pools. They built clam gardens. They moved trees and vegetation around, you know, enhanced beaches. It was very active. And we can incorporate that knowledge into how we move forward on a lot of these things. And we need to do that. Yeah. When people ask me what they can do, I respond by saying, what you can do is change your habits. Now, a lot of people think that this climate change problem, resource extraction, et cetera, is too big for us to tackle.

But actually, it's not. If we all do a little bit and just change our habits, we can make huge change. I always think about in British Columbia and in Canada, gosh, about 40 years ago, they brought in a law stating that everybody had to wear seatbelts. There was huge backlash. Nobody wanted to wear a seatbelt. They weren't used to it.

But after a while, nobody even bothered to complain about it. We just do it. Whenever I get into my vehicle now, it's second nature to put my seatbelt on. I don't even think about it. It's done. Now, if we can all just look at some of the habits that we have, whether it's using too much water, maybe some wasteful practices, driving when we don't need to drive. Maybe we can walk a little more often. Maybe we can bike a little more often. Just really look at what actions you're taking daily that may be contributing to climate change and global warming

and try to change one habit. And when you've got that habit changed, change another one. And, you know, I think over time we can fix this, but it's going to take a concerted effort by everybody on this planet. effort by everybody on this planet and more so by some of us who are a little more privileged i guess to be able to change our habits thanks no i think that was very very well said and do you have anything to add louis yeah i appreciate what kirby said earlier on how we're connected to the land you know everybody's grandmother was your grandmother when i was growing up and long as you you know you paid attention and you would And I remember when in the fish camp, my grandmother brought my friend and myself into the smokehouse.

And they had a fish that was just put in, the salmon that was in the middle, and the finished salmon that was ready to come out on the end. And they would only tell you once. They said, you can eat all you want, but if you waste one piece, you are never welcomed in the smokehouses again. So they didn't waste time. And they would tell the children when they get too loud,

your children are to be seen but not heard. And just like that, they never stopped teaching. It was, I wish I could remember more from a long time ago, but I was lucky that they treated, you know, whatever friend I had, their grandparents were mine. Whatever friend I had, their grandparents were mine. I just learned how to get bark off the cedar tree so you don't kill the cedar tree from my friend's grandmother. I never forgot it.

When my wife wanted to go out and get some bark, she was surprised I told her I know how to do it. So we went out and got it. Just things like that. We just try not to leave a footprint when we left our sites or any camp areas. I just wanted to add that. Thank you. Thank you.

It's very insightful. athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast Post Run High is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. You know that rush of endorphins you feel after a great workout? Well, that's when the real magic happens. So if you love hearing real, inspiring stories from the people you know, follow, and admire, join me every week for Post Run High. It's where we take the conversation beyond the run and get into the heart of it all.

It's lighthearted, pretty crazy, and very fun. it's light-hearted pretty crazy and very fun listen to post run high on the iHeartRadio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts welcome i'm Danny Thrill won't you join me at the fire and dare enter nocturnal tales from the shadows presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you.

Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of My Duda Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how tech's elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI

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and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts check out betteroffline.com so talking of leaving a footprint i think perhaps the last thing i want to talk about is um mind tailings and and the way that because because some of these mines, so there are some, I guess, mines that people want to build and there are some mines that people have already built, right? I was reading on your website about a tailings dam and what that is and what that does

and what that might mean for protecting the ecosystem. So can you explain what a tailings dam is and what a tailings dam failure is? I learned a little bit at a meeting up in Anchorage on the forum on the Alaska environment. And they had scientists there that were speaking. And this is a few years ago now, and they talked about every mine that's in place is poisoning the rivers to this day, and it will always poison because it doesn't stop bleeding out of there

wherever they were mining. That was very interesting. And they had just started to do some water water sampling and we were trying to do that and this year we were finally able to do something with that we got to start with with guide there and looking forward to get water samples come fall at moose hunting time and we'll have to see how many he would like to have this time i just know no it's not good it's poisonous the water used to be that beautiful bluish glacier water coming down through the river there i'm not seeing that anymore so when i want to get fresh water for coffee i'll i'll go to the side mountain where i know it's clean and coming coming off the mountain things like that we have to watch out for you know specifically to a tailings dam

that's just the containment structure for a tailings dump they may call them tailings disposal facilities or storage facilities but they're never coming back for them. It's a dump. It's permitted just as any municipal landfill would be. British Columbia tends to use what they call some aqueous tailings disposable. They need to keep oxygen from the tailings because otherwise they're going to oxidize. they're going to create acid mine drainage, dissolve all of these heavy metals into the salmon streams, and basically a large risk, a large threat. We live in a rainforest, so that water balance is very critical, and it's almost impossible to do in a time of climate change. They're wanting to maintain three meters of water on top of these tailings in perpetuity. I mean, at what point in perpetuity does any certainty of

your predictions completely break down? And they require massive amounts of water treatment. And it's not just the tailings, it's the waste rock. In Louie's Eunuch River, it's not just the Bruce Jack, but now they're permitting the Eskay Creek, an open pit, and already permitted but not yet built is the KSM, which would be one of the top five largest open pits in the world. Wow. On a small watershed with incredibly low hardness of water, meaning it cannot absorb any kind of change of pH or acid, and is home to, you know, the spawning and rearing grounds and genetic diversity of Pacific salmon. And in the long run, the only way we're going to keep salmon from extinction, as well as Kirby says, trying to help change our attitude with this world. But we have to maintain that genetic diversity that's spawned in all of those little tiny streams throughout the coast and far into British Columbia. We need that genetic diversity.

Salmon are incredibly resilient. we need that genetic diversity salmon are incredibly resilient but we also can't you know completely ignore our part in disrupting the natural cycles here and as they pointed out they are incredibly disruptive i did you know want to say that you know louis mentioned how they're not listening he's not listened. And that story can be multiplied in every community and tribe throughout the Pacific Northwest and probably the entire United States about the world. But that's what we're trying to remedy here, trying to, let's all get together, let's ignore that border. We find out in these meetings like our summit that we're actually related. Some of us are related to one another. And look at this in the big picture,

holistic way. You have to look at big things like climate change and natural ecosystems and complex mining that just gets bigger and bigger just due to economy of scale they mine the good stuff a long time ago they took the chocolate chips out of the chocolate chip cookie now they're going after the baking soda and that creates exponential more waste right yeah because there's less of the stuff they're looking for and more of the waste wow yeah i've certainly um spent some time around some abandoned mines in alaska and it's it's wild to see this massive intrusion and then abandonment and just sort of a complete sort of abrogation of the responsibility for the damage that is done i look at the climax malibu mine in leadville colorado it's a good

example i've been there too yeah maybe you've seen that one i've raced my race my bike up there a I look at the Climax Milimnivin mine in Leadville, Colorado. It's a good example. Been there too. Maybe you've seen that one. I've raced my bike up there a couple of times, yeah. I used to work there. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah.

Wow. That is a... And the impact that it's had on that town of the mining. It's all... It's a process that hurts almost everyone apart from the people

who own mining companies, right? Like it doesn't many as many people as it in the long run it hurts i think you're going towards benefits and there there should be equitable benefits but the benefit the first cut of the pie is is the environment itself um they have it not only has to just be maintained and sustained it has to actually benefit at this point if we're going to avoid large-scale collapse and um and uh but there's ways of doing that and part of that is giving indigenous people a strong say of consent the new laws, Canada ratified the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People. BC has implemented that through the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Act. They're supposed to respect these traditional territories, regardless of the land status of

Alaska tribes. They certainly have an obligation to respect the First Nations and the unceded territories of the First Nation people in British Columbia. That's clear by law. And the Supreme Courts have expanded that to people that no longer live in Alaska if they still have that direct connection to their traditional territories within, I'm sorry, British Columbia. And so we're going to use that to make sure that Louis and everybody is heard and get that knowledge as part of, and not just the knowledge, but the act of participation. that's part of the benefit sharing if indeed anything happens but at this point we just need so much more restoration

before we damage it further quite frankly um yeah of course so you spoke about this large open pit mine and is there something people can do if if they want to i'm guessing it would be optimal for them not to open another massive open pit mine is there something people can do if they want to, I'm guessing it would be optimal for them not to open another massive open pit mine. Is there something people can do to help maybe make that a process that, you know, where indigenous people listen to and not just mining interests? This indeed is for me, and I'll be quick. quick i think you know uh unfortunately the engaging with the process with the recognition that the process is broken but engaging it to the maximum extent you can to try to get your word out there and influence decision makers um you gotta at least do that yeah i'm sure kirby has stood the lines out there in british columbia I'm sure he can speak to it.

Please do, Kirby. Yeah. You know, if you or your listeners haven't heard of the term indigenous science, I would like to introduce that. Indigenous science is a distinct, time-tested, and methodological knowledge system that can enhance and complement western science now i've introduced this many times i it's by no means did i invent this at all but um i've i've been introduced to it about a year ago and i've been using it a lot now in many instances indigenous science is thousands of years old, whereas Western science in some areas, such as British Columbia, Canada, where we've only been in contact with European settlers for just over 500 years, Indigenous science is much, much older. science is much much older um it's as i said earlier it's it's time tested and the knowledge is is immense and um you know that alone should give a lot of credence to

to the knowledge and and the science of indigenous peoples yeah i think that's an excellent consideration and we had an episode this week actually where we spoke about indigenous medical technologies and i think it's important to recognize these things as on a par with uh yeah like european western technology medical technologies right as opposed to different from um but you know have them on the same level and the same with the science that you mentioned i think that's an excellent point too i have to chime in because i that point of view sometimes i have to laugh because what is at least 65 of all pharmaceuticals are derived from natural

plants that the indigenous people had full knowledge for a long time aspirin that information wasn't necessarily transferred in the nicest manner often so you need to acknowledge that yeah yeah every time we take an aspirin we're benefiting from indigenous science right indigenous medical technologies yeah and those technologies are incredible the halibut hook is just a prime example it's it's an incredible study in the morphology of the mouth of a halibut the habits of The halibut hook is just a prime example. It's an incredible study in the morphology of the mouth of a halibut, the habits of a halibut, and they can design the hook to target very specifically the size of the halibut. So they're not getting the big breeders and this and that. And just the amount of observation, adjustment engineering that goes into a halibut hook is in itself very

incredible the western people when they moved in on at least here on the coast they looked at the way uh the Tlingit and Tsimshian people were harvesting fish with with beach traps and and and beach nets and and whatnot and they copied that fish wheels and they copied that technology but then they took it to the massive extreme and just took everything out of the rivers but they used indigenous technology to do it ironically enough uh so we can turn that around you know we can use that technology to turn this around. And there's no reason why we shouldn't. That's an excellent point.

Is there anything you each would like to leave our listeners with? Maybe a place they can find you online, a way they can show support, something like that? A little bit that I didn't mention. I'm also, I'm Simseon and Tlingit. My grandfather and great-grandfather, they came from Hartley Bay when Malacatla was built by them in 1887, I believe. And they were boat builders they sold their

rowboats up and down the coast but yeah I couldn't spend enough time with my grandfather he was good

and just he never stopped learning from all of our elders I just wanted to throw that in there thank you thank you so much

how about you Kirby anything you'd like to leave people with I just wanted to leave people with this thought you know as i said earlier um look at look at the habits that you can change that that are the low-hanging fruit and i'd also like them to um you know think about um how they can change. Think about holding your elected officials accountable. I'm not sure what it's like where you're from, but a lot of our elected officials, they like to talk, but they don't like to do anything.

That's universal. Actions speak louder than words. Hold your elected officials accountable. Every time you see them, ask them what they're doing about protecting wild salmon. Thanks. Thank you. Guy, anything from you? Okay.

Yeah. Thank you. Guy, anything from you? Okay, yeah, quickly along the lines of what Kirby was saying. I mean, recognize that the metals that are necessary to support our lifestyle are already there. They're in our walls, in our cars, in our computers. The idea that we need more of these metals in our lives is just the idea that we need more stuff in our lives. And that addiction is what's strangling this planet um and so louis i mean i'm sorry kirby's you know advice is is you know is is very strong but uh if you want to follow along go to www.seitc.org so southeast alaska indigenous S-E-I-T-C dot org, O-R-G. So Southeast Alaska Indigenous Trans Boundary Commission, S-E-I-T-C.

We're just getting started. And so there should be some incredible stories along the way. One last thing I'd like to say is that we really need to consider the circular economy. Right now, we live in a society where we throw away so many things. I think about vehicles that go to the junkyard and they're crushed. We should be taking those vehicles apart, using the parts that we can, instead of just crushing it into this big, massive rock that we're eventually going to need to dismantle again sometime in the future, we should be doing that now. And if there are any good parts in that vehicle, then they should be put back into circulation. Yeah, I think that's an excellent point.

They are elements after all. Yeah, yeah. I think that's an excellent point. They are elements after all. Yeah. Well, they're already broken down into the elements, right? And we're just crushing them back into a big rock again. And then we're going to have to take them out into the elements again.

Yeah. When we run out of stuff to dig out of the ground. It's very sad to think that like the same desire, a colleague and I spent some time reporting on the civil war in Myanmar last year. And that's the same thing. It's people trying to extract rare earth metals. And it's people dying and the environment being damaged because of it. And I think Kirby made an excellent point that if we don't, you know, those things are already there. And Guy said it, like in our walls and in our computers and things. And we could do so much better to use the ones we have rather than consistently damaging people on the

planet to dig up more respectful. Yeah. And be respectful. Thank you so much. All of you for giving me some of your afternoon and sharing your time with our listeners. I know they would really appreciate it. And I do too.

with our listeners. I know they would really appreciate it and I do too. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going.

That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow Rock. Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of fright. An anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America.

Inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturno on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pertenti. And I'm Jamee Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. If you're early in your career, you probably have a lot of money questions. So we're talking to finance expert Vivian Tu, a.ian Tu, aka Your Rich BFF, to break it down. Looking at the numbers is one of the most honest reflections of what your financial picture actually is. The numbers won't lie to you. Listen to this week's episode of Let's Talk

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