It Could Happen Here - Interview with an Anarchist Fighting in Ukraine

Episode Date: April 25, 2022

Over several days, Robert conducted an interview with an Anarchist militant fighting as part of an Anarchist volunteer militia unit in Ukraine.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadowbride. Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of fright. An anthology podcast of modern-day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. This is It Could Happen Here. I am Robert Evans. This is a podcast about things falling apart and sometimes how to put them back together. Today, this is another episode about the war in Ukraine. It's going to be eventually an interview with a Ukrainian anarchist militant who is

fighting on behalf of Ukrainian people in that conflict. But here's a little introduction first. So anarchists are all about the elimination of hierarchy. And since the state tends to be the hierarchiest thing around, most anarchist activists tend to either seek the destruction of the state or at least snatches of a life lived beyond its bounds. The most joyful moments in anarchist organized protests tend to be those brief liberatory windows where anything seems possible and even say middle class suburban moms might feel briefly like they could tear down the walls of a federal courthouse. So the idea of anarchists joining and fighting in a national military, commanding and being commanded in the hierarchy of a state's defense forces, feels like a pretty big contradiction. Yet, when the Russian Federation

launched a massively expanded invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, many Ukrainian anarchists announced their intention to fight on the side of their government. Organizations like Revdia formed militias, which have been integrated into Ukrainian territorial defense forces. In one statement I found on the website, Enough is Enough, a militant representing Revdia explained their feelings this way. Ukrainian anarchists are at war with Russian expansionism, fascists, and the government. They have created their own arm and call on us to join them. Every anarchist collective and organization that understands the revolutionary task and the internationalist struggle must transform its general anti-war position

into a position of engagement. By participating in or strengthening the anarchist Ukrainian guerrilla struggle without suspensions and by attacking the Russian economic and political power. Victory in arms for the anarchists in Ukraine who stand against Russian imperialism, fascist paramilitary groups, and the democratic government in Kiev. Solidarity with the Russian and Belarusian anarchists who are crawling in and other Ukrainian organizations are very much acting in line with more than a century of anarchist tradition in Ukraine. During the Russian Revolution, famed Ukrainian anarchist warlord Nestor Makhno was forced to make a tough decision. Ukrainian nationalists threatened the central government that had arisen after the fall of the Tsar,

and Makhno and his comrades decided to defend the democratic socialist government against the nationalists. From the book Anarchy's Cossack, quote, That decision faced the local anarchists with a problem, for it had them support governmental forces here which, even if they were of the left, were nonetheless potential enemies of the mass's autonomy. Makhno reckoned at the time that, As anarchists we must, paradox or no paradox, make up our minds to form a united

front with the governmental forces. Keeping faith with anarchist principles, we will find a way to rise above these contradictions and, once the dark forces of reaction have been smashed, we will broaden and deepen the course of the revolution for the greater good of an enslaved humanity. Roughly one month into the expanded Russian invasion, I had the chance to sit down and interview an anarchist in Ukraine who was participating in the resistance to Putin's regime. We conducted our interview over the course of several days, as his fighting schedule allowed, and we did so over voice messages and signal. His audio quality was thankfully quite good. I have condensed some bits of the interview, particularly my questions, to make things easier to understand, and I moved some stuff around a little bit.

I hope this is still pretty clear. Now, here's our source introducing himself. What I would start you to tell about my story is, let's call me Ilya. I am an anarchist from some neighboring country, but live in Ukraine for several years. I had to leave my homeland because of the political repressions against anarchists there. And for me, participation in these conflicts, it has several dimensions. It has several dimensions. Once like the first and simplest thing is that Ukraine, even though it's like highly imperfect state, like with clear neoliberal stuff and some nationalist and far right influences the political, but still is more like gray zone and more like, how to say, pluralistic and free space. The state here has much less control than in Russia and Belarus, for example.

I wanted to start by asking them about the elephant in any room where people are discussing left-wing resistance in Ukraine, the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion. I think it's important for people to like just talk about Azov and whatnot and not whitewash what's going on there. But it strikes me that they have a really effective social media campaign and they're sneaking a lot of videos and a lot of combat footage and whatnot out into kind of Western mainstream media without people realizing it's Nazis. this i think is obvious for you but at the same time sometimes conscious or unconscious pro-russian propagandists try to portray the situation as if it is nazi state or something like all the resistance is far right or something but actually a general part of the state and also which is more important of the grassroots popular resistance is just

apolitical in sense that like most of the army are not in the politics even though of course we aware that army is political institution itself and especially all those people in the villages who are now taking up arms to guard their lands against the occupiers, they are also not politically affiliated somehow. Ilya and many of his comrades see anarchist participation in the struggle against Russia as necessary for two reasons. The most basic is that Putin's regime is a threat to their life and freedom too. The secondary reason is that if they don't fight, they will have no ability to influence what happens in their country after the war.

Today, this invasion, it really constructs the threat for the whole existence of this society, more society than to the state itself. Because this is a kind of attempt to export this totalitarian hell which were constructed in Russia more or less. And to confront this, just not let it happen is already a task, I think. But of course to come to defend some land against some occupation for me is too simplistic for the anarchist and revolutionary approach. So there come like more detailed reasons I would say. First of all, I really believe that if Putin will be confronted intensively and successfully here, then it's very possible that it will break the spine of this regime in Russia,

which may lead to revolutionary changes both in Russia and in Belarus, because Belarusian dictatorship exists, like relies very much on Putin support and so on and another dimension is that any force which wants to be like really politically meaningful in Ukrainian society should take sides in this conflict all people who say some dogmatic things like we are against all states against all wars this is not enough now this is not a proposition now and now this is really popular resistance like if you do not if

you do not join it for whatever reasons then you exclude yourself from actual political process because the main questions will be like where are you and where were you in this event and of course the right side is to confront this imperialist occupation this can really give an opportunity to like for future and not for future actually already today for organizing and mobilization of a revolutionary libertarian forces um and constructing ourselves as some considerable significant movement like for example now there is this unit of territorial self-defense, which anarchists participate in actively. This is now already around 50 people.

Well, it was unimaginable in the recent years and months to have some gathering of 50 anarchists, antifascists and so on as some joint unit. But now this is the reality and this mobilization is made because of this invasion actually. So this is something that makes sense in my opinion. And another interesting thing I think in context of comparing, for example, far left and far right participating in Ukrainian political life and in current events, that of course for us any collaboration with the state is much more problematic than for the Nazis because even their like ideology and mindset as far as I can evaluate it pretty allows them both any relations with the state structures and also any dirty schemes both with the state with the business and with criminal sphere like our approaches are much more puristic which is partly good of course but also have some consequences for us to be much less adoptable as the movement to the real social political economical realities. And for example, now currently this is still a question for anarchists. Should we join, for example, these territorial defense forces, which is even though somehow

militia-like localized institution, but still, of course, like state-affiliated force orchestrated and arranged by the state and subordinated to state army hierarchical system but we still believe that in current events this participation like it less compromise us but more give us the tools to organize, to get experience and to get subjectivity, if we can say so in English, like to become really an actor. to maintain political independence and even some sort of structural independence. So this is not just people are going and joining the army and that's it. They are now just units. At least up to the moment, this is not our story. And this is something, at least me personally, reflecting on a lot. Welcome, I'm Danny Trejo.

Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. with supernatural creatures. I know you.

Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. First, I would like you mentioned you came to Ukraine from a neighboring country where repression of anarchists was more severe. I am interested, prior to this stage of the invasion, obviously the first invasion happened in 2014, but prior to this escalation,

how would you describe state repression against anarchists in Ukraine, the degree to which anarchist organizing was opposed by the state, by the police in Ukraine. And then the follow-up question to that would be, as you guys saw this war building, could you elaborate on some of the discussions that happened about what to do, about whether or not to form militias, whether or not or to what extent to fight alongside the government? So about state repressions against anarchists in Ukraine in recent years, I would say that they were, of course, much less hard than, for example, in Belarus and Russia. Also, because, like, for different reasons. because like for different reasons because of in general of course more pluralist political culture and political situation in ukraine but also partly because anarchist movement

in after maidan period was not that organized and not that combative to really draw drive attention of the state uh to itself and also uh what i need to say that in maybe 2019 and 20 this attention uh grew dramatically after several direct actions were taken by anarchists, for example, some sabotage against cell phone towers of some Turkish affiliated company when Turkey invaded Rojava in the late autumn of 2019, and also several actions against some police stations some of these statements were placed in anarchist fighter website and telegram channel and so police and secret services got how to say very energetic in their attempts to find the people who did this, even though they didn't succeed, actually. So several house raids taking place. They also tried to depart one anarchist from Belarus, Alexei Boryankov, who stayed in Ukraine for several years while decided to move out from lukashenko regime and so

but they didn't depart actually and also their house rates were not successful so they didn't succeed in the in their repressions so in last couple of year this picture i would say vegetarian picture of zero attention of the state to anarchist movement it changed so it started to be like different way before it actually also was some direct actions believed to be related with revolutionary action anarchist group it was if I'm not mistaken around 2017 and so on and this also were somehow prosecuted by by Ukrainian secret services also about organized participation of different anarchist faction in the current resistance against the Putinist imperialist aggression like about the most organized initiative you

all in most numbered you already know but there are several others smaller groups like more like affinity groups or several friends participating in different units. We even cannot count it because we even don't know about everyone who participate. At this point, he started talking about an anarchist militant named Igor Volochow, who had been killed by a rocket in Kharkiv a few days earlier. Before the war, Volochow had expressed a desire to organize a network of co-ops across Ukraine. He'd also been active in providing support for anarchists jailed in Russia. Ilya referred to him as having been

martyred. He was participating, I don't know, either individually or with some of his friends from Kharkiv. But for example, I knew nothing about their group and their participations. group and their participations uh there is also black flag anarchist group from lviv which now as far as i know participating in territorial self-defense of kiev at least they released several photos and some short statement this is something organized which i know about and apart from that i know just as I already told you, several affinity groups, groups of friends. The overall picture he painted of anarchist resistance in Ukraine was extremely atomized, due in part to pre-war concerns about avoiding state repression and the myriad doctrinal differences between different kinds of anarchists. The war seems to have had a catalyzing effect, which has made larger militant anarchist organizing possible

for the first time in recent memory. Ilya was cautiously optimistic about this, but he and his comrades also recognized a danger here. We are trying to avoid attention from the state services, from secret services, even though we still have to collaborate somehow with the military hierarchy and so on in this situation but of course we understand that if we will attract undesirable attention then probably some forces would try to destroy us or somehow assimilate, subjugate us.

None of these scenarios are good for us and we are aware of it. So we try to have some publicity and at the same time to act ourselves in the way which will not drive repressive attention to us like immediately. So up to now within this frame of territorial defense and like some civil volunteer activities and some other quite conventional activities of participating in this conflict against the Putinist side, against the putinist side we believe that we can take the ground for the new conceptions and programs of like of libertarian cause and also some organizational developments like some organized structure which are of course not necessarily should should be illegal from the very first steps,

but to establish some organizational basis and maybe, hopefully, ideological basis, which will help us to act more actively both during the war and after war. Could you go into a little more detail about the ways in which you all do, your units do, kind of interface with the state? I went on to ask how they organized their combat units and whether or not this reflected their broader beliefs about horizontal organizing. His basic answer was that the militias have to operate within a military command structure and thus have to be broadly organized in the same way conventional military units are. However, being irregulars, their life outside of battle is much less regimented than what

regular soldiers experience. So, about military hierarchy in general, of course, territorial defense forces are set by the state, and they are included into the general structure of a military hierarchy of regular army. In this sense, we are, of course, generally not autonomous and what is, what's been issued by superior command, we should implement in life and should fulfill these orders. However, now territorial defense forces, I would not speak about all of them because I limited since the very start of war within my own experience with this unit. These forces have like a lot of time for constructing itself like our internal life not that much regulated by the higher command and also

there is a sort of space of communication with some commanders which are a little bit higher than us so we have like good people who our comrades who set this opportunity for us to get organized within this frame of territorial defense this was just our old friends who decided to join some territorial defense structure as officers already before this situation started to happen. So I think these people do a really good job and they provide for us options to feel ourselves comparatively free. to feel ourselves like comparatively free. Of course, not in operational sense, because like operational frame is being set by the higher command and like as one picture, one scheme. And in this aspect, we, of course,

just the one of the elements of the general plan of the fighting, the Putin's regime invasion here. one of the elements of the general plan of the fighting, the Putin's regime invasion here. So, I mean, yes, as a unit, we are governed by the military command, but this is really rarely that we see anyone apart, anyone of some officers or, don't know generals or somebody else from above the military hierarchy we here now occupied with training with organizational constructing and with like improving our internal life not being like really 100% orchestrated by any military hierarchy people.

So what about the internal structure? It is still supposed to be organized on the traditional army scheme. So every section has a commander, unit in general has a commander, and this is not an elected people. This is not like really controlled from below people. Maybe unfortunately, or maybe this is necessary in the current situation. This is really hard to estimate,

to evaluate at the moment. In this manner, our internal structure in sense of like military structure is more or less traditional for the territorial defense. At the same time, of course, we have more democratic internal culture. In general, territorial defense is people mostly organized on local basis and also out of volunteers so people who came here on their goodwill and not on some conscription or some contract which gives you a certain money or privileges so because of this, you're already supposed to be somehow more free and more apt to express your opinions and so on. And of course, we as somehow leftist affiliated anarchist unit, of course, we encourage the internal discussion.

Everyone, including all the commanders inside our regiment, are subject to critique and discussion, even though maybe final words in the operational questions are up to these people. And also it's important that we maintain total political autonomy in the sense that all the groups and individuals who construct the unit we are part of, they are absolutely free to express their analysis, political analysis and conceptualization of both these events and our participation in them according to their analysis, their attitude and so on. Welcome, I'm Danny Thrill. Would you join me at the fire and dare enter Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows

presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time.

Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I also asked what it was like to fight ostensibly on the same side as neo-Nazi elements like Azov. While Ilya and his unit are not anywhere close to the Azov battalion, I wanted to know how he and his comrades dealt with the weird reality of being in the same broadside as people they might have battled in the street at one point. have battled in the street at one point. But of course, there is like, they tried to set like their own, how to say, mafia politicalright groups, which the leaders of so-called Azov movement, which is much broader than Azov battalion itself,

they tried to utilize and instrumentalize to reach their own goals. And with some of these groups, of course, we had just street fights. For example, the elements close to the Sazov movement, they try to influence a lot the Belarusian diaspora, like a positional diaspora in Kiev. For example, in the one-year anniversary of the protests of 2020 in belarus there were there was fight in kiev between anarchists who came to participate in demonstrations in this demonstration and the nazis who attacked them in like aiming to somehow push them out from the Belarusian movement to influence it in their own way. Like also just

usual street confrontation also took place all this time. There is quite visible and active Antifa movement in Kiev, which confronted Nazis on the streets and blocked sometimes several of their like initiatives and so on and also of course informational and propaganda struggle was held by us by us during all this time since Maidan and of course before as well. About the current military situation like of course we are now actually a part of one army with the right sector Azov and so on people we are under the same military command and if we will be tasked to fight in the same place the same enemy we will be actually like at the same like part of the barricade but this situation we need to deal with like there are different opinions amongst our comrades and here about Azov and all the

far-rightists they differs from that they are actually our enemies like both now and also in any future Ukraine in any future scenario because these people promote like quite obviously absolutely opposite political and social goals than we other people say that another like other people say that now there is how to say a general deadly threat we are facing and we should fight regardless of left and right and something like this to fight the imperialist invasion but i personally me I do not support this second assumption and position. I see this quite not really politically smart, in my opinion. But what we here can agree on is that if we want to confront Nazis and far-right parts of the Ukrainian political and also military spectrum, then we need to develop our own strong structure,

our own strong actor. And also this somehow connected with the question about PR. You mentioned that we need our own PR, our own publicity and media work, and also, first of all, our own conceptions and ideological blueprints which we can suggest to ukrainian society and present both inside ukraine and abroad and this is the work this is the challenge and duty which we need to fulfill and hopefully like not hopefully but actually we are working on this already now so if you want to combat as of now is not the time maybe to

accuse them in some public statements but this is time to develop alternative structure, which will be able to really confront these reactionary currents. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow. Join me, Danny Trails, and step into the flames of fright.

An anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturno on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.