It Could Happen Here - It Could Happen Here Weekly 132

Episode Date: May 25, 2024

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It's time to get rewarded for it. Submit your podcast today at iHeart.com slash podcast awards. That's iHeart.com slash podcast awards. Hey, everybody. Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode, so every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

you can make your own decisions. Hello, and welcome to It Could Happen Here, a podcast about things falling apart and how we try to put them back together again. I'm your guest host, Margaret Kiljoy, and with me this week is one of your regular hosts, Gare. Hi, Gare. Hello.

This week is one of those putting things back together episodes. The premise of this episode is simple. Let's say you're newly radicalized. Maybe you were a participant in the occupations, and now the school year is over, or you got expelled. And you're wondering what the next steps are. This won't be an all-in-one guide to how to become an activist,

but it's sort of a sketch of one. It's also not quite a complete summer 2024 guide to protests, but there's some of that in here too. It's a magpie's guide to getting started in activism. I want to start with my own biases up front because it's going to inform everything that I have to say about all of this. I'm an anarchist. It's also been decades since I've broke into the movement. I've been doing this stuff since 2002 when I dropped out of college to join the ultra globalization movement so i have biases towards things like dropping out of college because it worked for me and i have you know a lot of my experience isn't recent at least my direct experience personally but i've been

watching people come into the movement for a very long time. I also have biases against authoritarian organizing and electoral organizing, and biases towards direct action and autonomy as models for radical social change. I believe this is how you build a freer and better world, by practicing freedom along the way. But you can adapt this to suit your own interests. That's not to say I have any interest in guiding people towards specific paths, specific actions, specific issues and movements. Exactly the opposite.

This is my attempt to kind of give a big picture view of how one might get involved. Right now, I don't know if you knew this, Gare, the world's kind of in trouble. I have heard this before I have heard this said, yeah Do you ever like think about how your job is to be a professional chicken little? Yeah, sometimes, I guess so

Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely in the dredges Trying to find what horrible things are always happening, certainly Yeah I would say, even though the world is always in serious trouble, it's like extra in serious trouble right now. And we are in desperate need of people who dedicate their time, whether part of it or all of it, to trying to stop the terrible things that are happening and trying to build beautiful things and beautiful alternatives. So how do you get started? I want you to think about a couple different things that are separate from each

other. I want you to think about, couple different things that are separate from each other. I want you to think about, this isn't necessarily you, Gare, although you could if you want. Sure, why not? Yeah. What do you care about? Like what issues are specifically important to you? That's the first thing to think about.

The second is what do you want to do about it? And if you have a sense of that and like also kind of how far you're willing to go, if you get a sense of those things before you throw yourself into the fight, you're going to start off strong. Those things can change. They will change over time. But getting a sense of those ahead of time is a good way to figure out which door you want to go in. And then also to avoid some of the dangers that lie on the other side of any given door. What do you care about? What movements and projects speak loudest to you? A ton of causes are interconnected, of course, right? The fight for Palestinian liberation is

not, at its core, a separate project than the fight against policing in the United States, for example. The rise of a global police state is everyone's problem, and so is the U.S. and Zionist imperial project. Causes are interconnected, but you can rarely start by trying to fix everything. Usually you got to pick somewhere to start working. You don't climb a mountain by just willing yourself to the top. You climb it by picking a place and then starting to climb it. Maybe you're concerned about the police state, or surveillance, or the erosion of rights, or Palestinian liberation, or fighting for prisoners in the U.S. to still have access to books, or for LGBT rights, or for migrants at the border,

or for the protection of the remaining national ecosystems and stopping the expansion of fossil fuel infrastructure. Maybe you're concerned about something hyper-local, like the destruction of a local park or the sweeping of homeless encampments. Maybe it's something a bit broader and more abstract, like you want to get involved in explaining the need for police abolition. But there's something, there's something that you want to change

as a place to start. The second question is, what do you want to do? There's multiple questions embedded in this. There's how far are you willing to go? We'll talk more of that later. More immediately, what is your skill set or what skill sets do you wish you had? Like a lot of times I'll just be like, oh, hey, what are you good at? Now go do that. But sometimes like what you're good at isn't what you want to be doing. And it's also totally okay to be like, well, what do I want

to be good at? Like, what do I want to be trying to focus on? What do you have to offer the revolution or what do you wish you had to offer? Are you in med school or have other first aid or medical experience? Maybe you want to plug in with your local street medics. Are you studying law? Movement lawyers need paralegal help and there are groups that use volunteers to get people out of jail or through difficult court cases. If graphic design is your passion, this is me referencing a meme from a million years ago and totally winning people over. Every group that exists needs help with their flyers or Instagram slideshows or whatever the fuck. That is certainly the case. Yeah. No, it's funny too, right? Because it's like, it's one of those things where if you do graphic design, you sort of think like, oh, everyone's sort of does this or whatever, right?

And then I have been part of groups where people are like, no one knows how to do this at all. And everything is that we make is garbage, you know? Yeah. Although there is actually a careful needle to thread in this vein, because if you've had enough experience you can kind of figure out what type of action it's gonna be based on how well designed the flyer is yeah and which way if it's kind of corporate well designed it's like gonna tie into electoral politics and be boring but if it's hip and well designed it's a riot well sometimes there's sometimes there's some like very like well-designed flyers that are not like very electoral but they're like okay this will be a march there'll be some speeches we'll kind of walk around a little bit because it's like a very

well put together flyer versus when you have like a white background a big block text maybe one poorly cropped picture you're like okay this is obviously a riot flyer yeah okay okay it takes a degree of subtlety to to to get the instinctual difference uh when you're looking at a collection of flyers that are going out no see this is interesting to me because in like about 15 years ago the like the people throwing the best riots were a bunch of graphic designers. And so it was the specific hip style. Yeah, not the case anymore. Yeah.

Okay. Okay. Well, and actually, a good graphic designer knows the language that they are speaking with and knows what they are communicating. So that might be what you want to do is get involved in making the flyers. If you spend all day on Twitter, a lot of activist groups can't find someone to run their social media or they have people who run it very badly. Sometimes being an extrovert is a superpower. Building strong movements means building strong communities and every meeting

and party needs someone willing to introduce themselves to the new people and help them figure out where to go. The best activist meetings I've ever been to have like someone who's there to sit next to new people and explain what's going on. Also, if you can plan a party, you can plan a benefit show to raise money for bail funds. There's kind of this like, like whenever I talk about this, like, oh, everyone has their place and people are like, why don't, I'm a fucking bookkeeper and i'm like oh my god we need you or like sure you know all kinds of different skill sets that people like don't think apply actually do project manager yeah we're we're not all instinctively good at that you know and so the quickest way to sum this

part of it up is you think about what's wrong and you think about what you're good at and then you get together with other people and apply what you're good at to stopping what's wrong. That is the like one sentence version of how to start getting involved in making the world better. But the last part of it that I want the question of it beforehand is risk analysis. It is very easy to get swept up in the moment and go beyond your comfort zone in terms of risk in a lot of different environments. The more you have sorted out ahead of time about what kinds of actions you're comfortable with strategically, morally, and personally, the easier it is to stick to your decisions when things get hard. For example, you might tell yourself, I will risk arrest, but I will not get arrested

on purpose because I have a massage license I don't want to lose, or I have kids at home, or I'm undocumented, or I don't like the idea of jail. Whatever your reason is, there's plenty of reasons to make that decision. You might be willing to risk arrest, like being a hectic riot, but you're not willing to lock your neck to a bulldozer. So when you go to the planning meeting for the lock your neck to a bulldozer action, and you're trying to figure out who wants to lock their neck to the bulldozer, you've already made up your mind, and you're less likely to kind of pressure yourself into volunteering.

Or feel pressured by others. Yeah, I'm imagining the positive version. Well, okay, because it's very rarely someone's like hey gare been a while since you locked your neck to anything and it's usually more like man it just sure would be good if someone was bold and noble enough to just step up right now and then yeah yeah yeah i mean i've organized some of my friends arrests before and it's it's not always that's not always the strategy that people want to be doing anyway i'm just using this as an example like a kind of earth first style thing if you know what your risk

models are you can make better decisions maybe you're fine with a spirited march but as soon as windows start getting broken you're like you know you know, I want to leave. That's going to not be my scene. You know, I'm not mad that the people did it, but it's not what I am willing to get arrested in response to. It's also important to know your risk levels, which can of course shift because there are predators in the ranks of direct action activists. I don't know if you knew this, Gare. There's a shadowy, unaccountable group that tries to get people to break laws. They're called the feds.

They're called the FBI. They have a history going back decades of entrapping people by coming up with bomb plots or arson plots or whatever. And we're not going to go into this in depth in this episode. But if you want to do more research, people should look up, they should read about COINTELPRO. It's an acronym, or read about the case of Eric McDavid, or read about how the FBI

set up Muslim Americans in the wake of 9-11. But another thing you should go into all this knowing is that that doesn't mean that everyone who wants to do those kinds of actions is working with the feds. Yeah, and you shouldn't go around accusing everyone you don't like of possibly being a secret federal agent. Because you know who likes accusing people of being federal agents? Federal agents? Yeah. And also our sponsors. They don't.

They don't. They're all great. They might. They might. I don't know. I can't really speak to them. But here they are. They can speak to you.

And we're back. That is a thing that is absolutely worth anyone who's getting involved in activism, especially direct action activism, including above ground civil disobedience style action, it is really worth understanding the ways in which federal oppression works and how federal oppression works often by the fear of federal oppression and getting people to spread paranoia. And so as a general rule, the way that I've always heard it talked about is that it's like, you never want to be like, hey, I think that guy's a fed instead you're like hey guy that kind of behavior is disruptive and leads towards bad things you know like yeah and i think i i even have some like hesitation to just be like you should just just go google co intel pro and learn all about it because i feel like that can also lead to someone kind of falling down like some conspiracy-brained rabbit holes.

And I have gotten the best information by just talking to older people who've been in the movement for a while. And if someone has over 10 years of experience, you can learn a lot about what has happened before through just actual in-person conversations. And I have found that to be much more useful than just going down a Google rabbit hole because that can just kind of lead to, I think,

slightly more paranoid thinking. Or it just becomes less applicable than like, hey, you have a friend of a friend who's done this for a while and you just ask, hey what if what do you know about this sort of thing no you're right what are your experiences of kind of facing like repression in the past there's chances are some of them will probably know people who've either turned out to be like informants has started informing or were were bad actors from the from the get-go like it it does it does happen and there does happen. It's not even just

stuff from 10, 15 years ago. There's a lot of that stuff post-2020. Some stuff in Chicago, some stuff in Colorado Springs have gotten decent news coverage. I think you can also look to articles specifically of the Colorado Springs infiltration that

the FBI was running around 2020. I think that's a really useful case study for a more recent version, as opposed to like the green scare stuff from at this point, like 20 years ago. No, no, it's true. And there's a good, there's actually a good podcast series, or I liked it called Alphabet Boys. The first season is about that case. No, that's a good point that you,

that random internet search is not the way to get this kind of information this information like you'll honestly it's kind of funny i would trust a random zine in a radical bookstore far more than i would trust a google search result agreed which is not true for everything like health care well you're gonna get shit answers no matter what if you do that yes yes the internet's gonna tell you you have cancer and the zine's gonna tell you that tea tree oil will fix it yes there we go yeah yeah no that is actually a very good point and it is the kind of thing that yeah the longer you're involved the more you're just like oh yeah the you know my ex who's a snitch that sucks yeah you know anyway now you have what you care about what

your skills are in your risk analysis it's time to get started how there's two basic ways and they're not really a dichotomy but you can plug into something that exists and you can start something of your own and both are valid and both have advantages and disadvantages there are structures and movements that are already in place that are desperate for your help. There's a catch. Many, not all, but many of the more reasonable groups are challenging to break into. Very few groups have a truly open door policy. And those that do, honestly, sometimes are suspect. Yeah. Some of those people are just trying to use you. They're trying to suck you into a political cult or use your energy and

burn you out for some vaguely progressive politician or activist cause. So either way, you're going to need to exercise some common sense and do some reading and research about what you're getting into. The best publicly accessible groups and movements are the ones that are organized from the bottom up because the participants themselves have a say in what's happening. There is less ability to be sucked into a cult and used. That's not to say it's impossible. And there are such things as decentralized cults that don't do any, you know. Many such cases. Yeah. But I know it's easy and convenient to join a group that'll just tell you what to do. It's very nice to imagine that there's benevolent people who will just do the hard part of making decisions and you can just show up and clock in and listen to what they have to say and

make the world a better place. This is rarely, if ever, the case. I can't point to examples of it being the case. if ever, the case. I can't point to examples of it being the case. Movements that maintain everyone's autonomy instead, I think, are what are interesting. And they often do it by not being a group at all, just a movement. The uprisings of 2020, I think, are a brilliant example of this. There's not the group that organized. No, there's a lot of smaller smaller groups whether that be some like informal organizations formal organizations or just like groups of friends

that it was it's it's made up of a whole bunch of these smaller groups and i think a lot a lot of times the best case scenario in many cases is if you have like a friend or two because you shouldn't really show the things alone i would say but if you have a friend or two, cause you shouldn't really show up to things alone, I would say, but if you have a friend or two, go with the friend or two, just like, just go to things. And if you go to enough things, people see you,

you can chat with people. You can start learning more about kind of what the different mechanisms in each different city and each, each different scene, how, how they operate. It's, it's,

it's, it's kind of silly just to be like, no, you just like have to like show up, but like, that is kind of a lot of how it works you'll maybe hear about an Instagram account that

posts flyers for semi-weekly picnics organized by some of these same people and then you can go to events like that and learn to socialize and it really just does require a degree of just showing up and you shouldn't go by yourself you should ideally have a friend or two that you that is that they would be okay going with you

but then you'll you'll find people to connect with and you'll kind of maybe find a different group of people that you want to start hanging out with more and i think in general that's kind of how the best case scenario works as opposed to like joining like a big above ground organization which is just going to use your body as a tool to get arrested as, or just treats you as disposable or in other cases, just be actually kind of like abusive. I agree with that. And that's some of that we're going to get into also, but yeah, no. And I will say overall, absolutely. It is better to do those things with friends. I didn't, I started going to things alone that has something to to do with my temperament and that has something to do with my social standing when I was in college and decided to get involved in

the movement. But overall, that is the best practice. But if you're listening to this and you're like, I don't have friends I can go do this stuff with, there are more risks involved. And you're also kind of stuck. You're going to go to a lot of things where no one will talk to you. Yeah. You know, and you can't necessarily expect that people will talk to you immediately or like, and you're going to have to be a little bit more self-motivated.

Yeah. And if you're going to a zine fair, you can chat with people at like the tables when you're looking for a zine. It's like, it's yeah. Not everyone's going to want to get into a deep personal conversation with a stranger they met at an event like this because it also has security risks.

But yeah, it's going to require a little bit of uncomfortable social interactions, which for someone like you or me, who did go to a lot of these things just by ourselves, it just kind of takes more time. No, totally. And I think actually zine fairs and things like that and anarchist book fairs and all that are like really good

examples of places that are publicly facing that are designed for for people to interact with each other and also like one of the main pieces of advice that we we have is be brave right and we talk about that in terms of like actions, but like, yeah, okay. Also social anxiety. Exactly. Exactly. Because how much of the social anxiety will become an inhibiting factor similar to

the state? Not saying those things are equal, but they can both inhibit you from doing things. You can kind of approach it via a similar means of trying to overcome this thing that is limiting your autonomy yeah no totally so to go back to if you're joining an existing group some groups maintain everyone's autonomy by being structured horizontally some groups that exist as a structure will do it by being structured horizontally if you found yourself for exist go ahead claim to be structured horizontally as well.

No, it's true. But like if you join a local Earth First chapter, you're going to find there's absolutely informal hierarchies that exist within these things. And they're like worth being aware of. But the decision about who's going to lock their neck to the bulldozer is going to involve everyone who might lock their neck to the bulldozer. Yeah, it's not the same as as the DSA or the PSL.

It's going to be a very different organizational structure. Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, you want to be part of the decision-making about locking your neck to a bulldozer because it's your neck on the line. That's my best joke in the whole script. I'm sorry. We'll just move past it quickly. Thanks. Plugging into an existing project is often a good first step. What I did personally, I started showing up to the meetings of this radical media project, Indymedia. I had film skills and soon enough I found myself in the film collective.

I spent a year or two bouncing around from demonstration to demonstration, coordinating with all the radical videographers to collect everyone's footage and edit together news videos about what had happened while we collectively fostered a culture of like respectful riot videography. I did not realize we had that similar background. Oh yeah, no, that, um, it's interesting cause I don't, I don't do that stuff anymore, but that was like my thing for a long time. Me either actually, but no, I, I did not realize we, we had, we had that, uh, we had that overlap. Yeah, no, and it was, it was great and it was fun and we you know we taught how to not film

people's faces we coordinated runners where in order to get footage out before the cops could get it we'd make sure everyone you know someone every videographer had someone next to them like ready to run out of the situation take this sd card and run yep exactly and I started off by joining an existing group that was doing this. But within a few months, I was doing it independently and coordinating with different groups that came together at all these different summit protests because I was a known entity to people, you know? It was fun.

I dropped out of school where I've been studying film and photography. And even before I would have graduated, a film I'd edited sold out a movie theater in portland we didn't have youtube so we organized in person okay that makes sense yeah yeah yeah yeah when um when we shut the city down on like march 20th or whatever 20 2003 for to try and stop the iraq war i like didn't sleep and just edited everyone's film footage together and made a 30-minute documentary about the day of protest and sold out a movie theater.

And I was like, damn, this was way better for my career than going to fucking stay in school. I mean, my name isn't on it, but that didn't matter to me. And then everyone, the local news media got really mad because i um i didn't include the stuff that could have been used in people's court cases like the time that people attack cops on the bridge because i was like nope that's too recent we don't know what's happening there anyway and getting into certain types of groups is kind of like applying for a shitty job a job that'll take you without reference is going to treat you like. But jobs that are worth having require you to somehow have already been doing the job before

you got hired. And once people know who you are, it's easier to find folks to work with. And I think Gare's suggestions is like the main way you go about that is you don't necessarily show up to organize. You just show up to participate. You show up to talks. You show up to radical bookstores and public events and zine fairs and protests and whatever interests you, you know? And I would say that if you're going to actions and you're new, remember to be both brave and cautious. If you tend towards recklessness and being swept into things, maybe make sure you take less of a front lines role until you get your legs underneath you. But it really is okay to be brave. I think we're asked by the times we live in to be brave. And sometimes we're going to have to step outside

of our comfort zone. We should just always look to make sure it's us encouraging us to step outside of our comfort zone instead of political actors, whatever political ideology they call themselves. And also if you can, another collective that people, you know, usually like medic collectives, maybe they'll have like a radical media collective. Another one will be a jail support collective is very common in a lot of cities. And not, even if you don't want to take part in that, if you can at least get in touch with them to fill out a jail support form before going to things, that will also be useful in case you do end up getting arrested so people can actually find you in the system and help you get out of

get out. Just another quick tip, I suppose. Yeah. And if you want more quick tips, I've got some for you right now. And we're back. Don't do anything that you just got told by voices that aren't me or gare they were trying to psyop you it is it is yeah yeah another way that you might get involved in something is you some groups are semi-open where you can contact them and express interest and they might do some basic screening to make sure you're not not like a nazi infiltrator or whatever i'm in the process right now of doing that with clinic

escorting it's like funny because i haven't had to like prove myself to any group in a long time right because i'm like i've been around forever the clinic escorting group it's like we don't fucking know who you are like and i'm like yeah that's fair good for them yeah no absolutely i live in a place is not where where abortion is not particularly popular with the right wing. And so I submitted my name and social media accounts to the abortion clinic escorting place. And then we'll go to a training at some point soon. For folks living in Southern California or willing to go there, for example, there are groups that do border solidarity, working with refugees to make sure they're fed and housed. If you listen to this podcast,

you've heard James talking about this. And this is the first episode you've listened to, in which case go back and listen to James talking about border solidarity work. If you want to show up and distribute food and water, track border patrol activity, build shelters, do first aid, all of that, feel like you're part of something because you are and are like saving people's lives directly, that's something you can likely get involved with, but it's not something you just show up at. There are a few groups doing that work, any of whom you can reach out to and express interest. There's Border Kindness, there's Borderlands Relief Collective, and El Ultralado. And there's other groups like this in different

areas, but these are the examples where I asked James being like, hey, how do I explain the following concept? In general, you want to look for groups. If you're looking for groups, you want to look for groups that are grassroots and non-authoritarian. You want to watch out for electoral campaigns and you want to watch out for nonprofits. This is not to say that the people doing these things are necessarily bad. There are local political campaigns that matter, and there are nonprofits that do good work. Some of the best political work I ever did was two years at a nonprofit, honestly, but I was with one of the good ones. And structurally, those systems, even the good ones, are set up to take advantage of people's energy and then profit off of it, right? And to accomplish goals that are often

tangential to or even counter to the goals that they claim. For example, both politicians and nonprofits live off of donations. These donations are easy for them to get when those groups are seen as necessary. So a nonprofit has a financial interest in not winning some non-profits manage to maintain their focus and make themselves work to make themselves obsolete but frankly those are the minority you also want to look out for groups that are front groups for authoritarian groups attached to communist political parties you mentioned earlier like the psl the party for socialism and liberation generally, these groups will go to protests and run events primarily as a way to recruit people into a hierarchical

structure. These groups are often trying to control broader movements that they're involved in. They'll tell people how they can and can't protest. And they're trying to essentially own movements that were built by others. So those are things to be careful around. You can also just not worry about any of that stuff and start something yourself. It is not the easy mode to get into the movement by starting your own projects. We're going to talk about affinity groups later,

actually, which is the thing that you kind of started to bring up. But it's very rewarding to start your own projects. It's like freelancing instead of looking for a job. There's no gatekeepers to cross. And the only person who's trying to take advantage of you is you. If you want to never not be working another day in your life, you can freelance or start your own political project. It'll be what you think about every hour you're alive. project, it'll be what you think about every hour you're alive. In essence, the idea here is to say, okay, what's wrong and what are we willing to do about it? And then get together with your friends and start doing something about it. This can look like anything. You could start a mutual aid group,

a radical bookstore, an anti-fascist gym to train to defend yourself from fascists, illegal HRT distribution in banned states, a direct action abortion collective, a zine distributor that goes to shows and parties with free literature about anarchism, a podcast about how things fall apart and how to put them back together again, a clique of saboteurs who attack billboards, a group that draws attention to international movement prisoners and support them. Like, you can do anything. And that's one of the like, things that people, our society is designed to tell us that we can't can do anything. And that's one of the like things that people, our society is designed to tell us that we can't just do anything we want. There's obviously things that if we do, we'll get in trouble eventually,

but like, you know, okay. Like, like if you make a podcast, that's too good. Yeah. They will,

they will turn on you like Jesus. Yeah, exactly. Or, or if, or if you go around, you know, wanting to destroy construction equipment.

Right. Not usually legal. I'm not a lawyer. I can't tell you whether or not any given bulldozer is illegal to destroy. That is the kind of research you might have to do on your own. The difference between start something and join something is often blurry. For example, you can unionize your workplace. You probably should, but you might want to do that in the context of an existing union, like the Industrial Workers of the World or whatever union makes the most sense. Or the Writers Guild of America. Yeah, exactly. If you have a podcast about how the world's falling apart.

Yeah, exactly. If you're going to start something above ground, it's worth looking around and making sure that the need isn't already being met by someone else already Sometimes it's better to figure out how to help an existing bail fund rather than start another but Also, sometimes it is better to start another like it's harder for the police to raid for example Which didn't used to be an issue when you start bail funds but is now an issue

which is worth pointing out that like There's no true safety, you know? Like when we talk about risk analysis, like running a bail fund is entirely legal and is the kind of thing that often is done by the people who care about a movement and are like not front lines people. Yeah, aren't wanting to do felonies

in downtown right courtland or whatever yeah the more successful a movement is the broader the state repression will reach out to the fringes not the front i mean the bail fund isn't the fringe but the the less periphery that the people who aren't committing the felon felonies yeah are going to get tagged with felonies anyway because the state being repressive committing the felon felonies yeah are going to get tagged with felonies anyway because the state being repressive is the reason we're fighting it they will still get their houses raided and it's the same thing at demos you don't need to be the one breaking windows for the police to tackle you like it at a certain point it actually doesn't it seems to matter very little i mean mean, if things get to trial,

then things, you know, will maybe matter a bit more. But in, like, how police display the power of the state, like, out in the open world, it really doesn't matter if you're holding a sign or you're holding a hammer when you're getting tackled from behind by a big man with a gun.

Yeah, totally. Which is why it's, like, kind of worth i mean that's like almost like what the the answer to that is like solidarity and by recognizing that to a certain degree if you are at a protest and people are breaking windows and it's like okay well now we're all in danger together and if that is a danger beyond what you particularly feel like exposing yourself to that is probably the time to depart another pitfall to avoid if you're starting your own thing any group that involves money will at some point have someone from that group steal the money including bail funds uh unfortunately

it does it does happen and it sucks yeah i have lost count of the number of times someone who was an organizer has stolen all of the money from this or that thing and and that's because capitalism puts people in absolutely weird and terrible positions right it's still not okay for people to steal the bail fund and we should stop them but often the people who steal this stuff if they're the organizers they don't even necessarily conceptualize what they did as stealing they're like oh i'm gonna pay that back i don't think anyone needs it right now i just need it for rent in order for the bail fund to continue i have to have stable housing so i'm going to use these two thousand dollars right now and yeah. Without checking with the rest of the group and like, you know, like, and so if there's money involved, you should set up some best practices around

multiple eyes on the money at any given point and making sure that it's accountable to the broader group. One organizing model that is worth considering is the affinity group. This is basically you and some of your closest friends that you feel like doing safe with actions with whatever the scale of actions you get together with your friends. Or people you're not even necessarily like social friends with, but people you feel comfortable working with. Because there sometimes is a distinction. Like sometimes you have a lot of close friends you don't want in your affinity group. And sometimes there's people in your affinity group that you may not really want to hang out with like every week.

Totally. But they're good to work with. No, that's a really good point. It's about trust rather than like getting along with sometimes, you know? Yeah. It might function better if, you know, you don't all hate each other. Have some affinity. Yeah. Yes. You know, perhaps you have a shared affinity within the group uh ideally yeah it is if you're in a riot whether by choice or by accident you are safer and you

can be feel more comfortable if you are there with two or seven of your closest and most trustworthy friends or frenemies these are the people who are the most likely to de-arrest you these are the people who are there to notice if you are caught and will organize your bail um these are the people who'll be in direct you'll be in direct communication with during the protest so you can coordinate your actions together it's figure out how you want to get into the area get out of the area yeah and so that's like a going alone is sort of expert mode and so you should take fewer risks if you go alone until you are good you know and most people do not prefer and do not are not better off going to protest alone and then the final thing kind of tying together the existing groups versus whatever

else existing protests movements e else, existing protests. Movements ebb and flow. Protests are contagious, especially when they're rowdy and they show that they take themselves seriously enough to not just go along with whatever professional protest managers tell them to do and take themselves seriously enough to resist the police and authorities. It's more or less impossible to know which protests like sparks will catch a bigger fire. It is good and useful to cast sparks and see what catches or to notice when something is starting to spread and to help it spread. Like what happened a few weeks ago with the campus stuff, right? Exactly. One or two places really start popping off and you're like, hey,

I know some people in college who are in whatever town I'm in. Maybe we can figure something out. Yeah. And so if that was your involvement and you're like, oh, that's not currently happening where I am anymore. What do I do next? Things like that will happen again.

And you can also make things like that happen. Most of the time, they will not catch. However, sometimes they do. And that is like kind of our job in a lot of ways is to organize things and try things and see what catches. I'm curious your take. There are two political conventions happening this year. The Republican National Convention will happen from July 15th to 18th, 2024 in Milwaukee. And then in August 19th to 22nd in Chicago is the Democratic National Convention. There are basically always protests at these conventions. To me, and I'm a little bit out

of touch with it. There's going to be more this year. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. There certainly will, I think, especially at the DNC. I don't have much to say on this at this point besides read up on the previous ones that have happened, you can go all the way back to 68 if you want to read about Chicago and the DNC. But also like the RNC protests from the Iraq war era, I think would be really useful to look at. If you want to go back to like 2008 and see how those protests were. I would just recommend reading up on it. I don't really have much else to say on those in the moment. They're too far out.

Totally. To forecast. Yeah. That's kind of all I'll say at the moment. These will become recurring topics on this podcast the next few months. Great. Yeah.

Keep track of what's happening and get ready to go to what you feel comfortable with. And don't be afraid to be brave, but don't let anyone trick you into doing stuff that you're not comfortable with. But we need you. We're glad you're here. Don't be so down that the school year is over and these campus protests only had a few weeks to live. I know there were certainly people who were really hoping that after we saw, you know, what happened during April and May, that maybe this would, you know, trigger things happening off campus around the summer. And maybe they still will. we have a lot of young people, listener possibly included, who experienced their first example of actual state violence on them. And that can be a very radicalizing experience. So yeah, don't be so downed that maybe your occupation didn't go as well as you wanted to, maybe your protest didn't. But I think there's a lot of lessons to learn from what happened the past month. And they will become applicable possibly this summer

possibly two years from now who knows it's hard to say but yeah it's whenever you get that first hint of tear gas you kind of become a different person in my opinion so congratulations to everyone who did that hopefully you didn't get arrested and if you did hopefully you have a jail support crew that is

helping you out the other thing that i think that people never really recover from isn't the right word the first time you see the police retreat totally you recognize that this thing you have been taught is completely unassailable the reason they're building cop cities is they know they are assailable and they want to be less so well listen to this podcast and that's the only place you will ever find anything useful.

That's the final. I mean, I wouldn't say that. Yeah, I know. But there are other podcasts. There's a lot of books. There's a lot of zines. There's a lot of sketchy no-blog sites, which may sometimes have misinformation

and sometimes have good information. Yay. You could certainly check out. Margaret, I've heard that you yourself have a few other podcasts. What? I do. Well, if you want to hear a lot of the history around some of the stuff we talked about, including like the COINTELPRO stuff, for example, I run a podcast called Cool People

Who Did Cool Stuff on this very network, Cool Zone Media. And you can listen to it every Monday and Wednesday. I just finished a very long, but I swear entertaining series of episodes about the Russian Revolution and the Civil War. I did an episode about the burglars for peace who exposed COINTELPRO by robbing an FBI office in the middle of the night in the early 70s and all kinds of other stories so you can listen to that or if you want to know more about the end of the world i help run a podcast called live like the world is dying comes out every friday and that one is um prepper but community yep there we go and i have a book coming out. It comes out in September.

It's called The Sapling Cage, and it's going to be kickstarted in June. And if you go to Kickstarter, you can sign up for announcements about that. And it is the best book I've ever written. So you all should read it. Very excited to see that. That does it for us at It Could Happen Here.

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Nice. Recently, I've been researching and writing on education and anarchism. Honestly, it's one of my favorite topics to look into. And it's one of the topics I think I'm most passionate about. Yeah, that's definitely a hot topic within this political field. There's a large, large variety of opinions, one might say. For sure, for sure. I mean, consciousness does form the basis of revolution and there's a long history of anarchist struggle around education, whether it be in terms of critiquing its role in social control and socialization or discussing youth liberation

or talking about the inequalities of the current education system or the influence of statist capitalist religious ideologies or you know the whole discussion around sex education uh these are all things that anarchists have looked into discussed and sorts to you know wrestle with no it's interesting because anarchists have like i believe the large number of people who are like very like militantly like anti-school but also have a really high number of people who become teachers so it's always kind of interesting when you're ever at like an anarchist gathering you have like half the people are like school teachers the other half are like destroy the schools

which is always just a little bit amusing yeah for sure for sure so it's really i think people have to deal with that sort of tension and i guess find themselves in those sort of tensions but then they also find themselves put themselves in those positions in part because they see the potential of those positions wheel you know in sort of shape in the future but i don't mean to mislead anybody this episode is only tangentially related to education okay yeah so basically in my research on education I stumbled upon this article called anarchism in education and early republican Cuba from 1890 to 1925 and also I found some other work on anarchist Cuba in general and this is all thanks thanks to the scholarship of Cohen R. Schaffer. And I mean, for some time now, I've been meaning to dig deeper into the history of anarchism in Cuba.

Dare I say, I think it's been forgotten. And so I took a dive into it. I first started with Stephen J. Hirsch and Lucien Van der Waals' work in anarchism and syndicalism in the colonial and post-colonial world. In my research, I also found the work of Sam Dolkoff and Frank Fernandez, both of whom were apparently highly influential in the scholarship, the historical research, and the present understanding of Cuban anarchism. It's thanks to their research that we know what we know, bringing all those different things together, all those different sources together. So, here we go.

Aquí vamos. Let's discuss the history of Cuban anarchism. And our story begins in the early 19th century. You know, the sun on colonial Cuba casting a long and heavy shadow across the vibrant streets of Havana. The gentle, salty breezes carried... I'm trying a new thing. I see a facial expression. I'm trying... I like it. I like it. I'm trying to set the scene. You know, feel those salty breezes carrying the scent of tobacco and coffee and sugarcane. But let's not get too romantic. You know, This was a plantation society

where African slaves remained in chains and toiled under the hot sun while many of their contemporaries gained their freedom and plantation owners navigated the web of politics and power. Cuba was among the last countries to abolish slavery and the Cuban aristocracyocracy being uniquely loyal to the Spanish crown was primarily responsible for the persistence of that institution you know they were dedicated to Spain long after much of Latin America had won their independence and despite the

aristocrats loyalty there were still whispers of liberation and revolution in corners of the city. In 1857, just nearly two decades after the French radical Pierre-Joseph Proudhon declared himself anarchist and a mutualist, the first Proudhonian mutualist society would be founded in Cuba, marking the early beginnings of the organized labor movement on the island. A decade later, in 1865, lecturers or readings, places where political ideas would be read in cigar factories, became very widespread considering the predominance of the tobacco industry. And in the same year, the first strike threat would occur at a tobacco works in Havana, leading to successful negotiations for increased wages. In 1866, Havana-based artisans would establish the first evening school for workers,

laying the foundation for worker-based education. Between 1868 and 1878, conflict would erupt into violence, as the sugar mill owner Carlos Manuel de Céspedes and his followers proclaimed independence, beginning the first of three liberation wars that Cuba fought against Spain. The first uprising, led by wealthy planters, would be known as the Ten Years' War, and it would be followed by a second uprising, the Little War from 1879 to 1880. and it would be followed by a second uprising, the Little War from 1879 to 1880. Meanwhile, the Cuba's anarchist movement would look to establish another worker's school and a newspaper. These efforts were led by cigar makers Enrique Roig de San Martin and Enrique Messonnier in Havana. Roig de San Martin founded the Center for Instruction and Recreation.

Its purpose was to defend worker organizations and distribute anarcho-collectivist literature from Spain. The doors of the center were open to all Cubans, regardless of their social position, political leanings, or color differences. Greg San Martin also took the position of editor at the newspaper El Obrero, co-opted it from the Democraticans and turning it into an explicitly anarchist newspaper. The anarchists in the tobacco industry were pioneering the emerging labor struggle, bolstered by the transportation of anarchist periodicals from Spain to Cuba and the transmission of ideas by Spanish immigrant workers.

The first regional centers, clinics, secular schools, mutual aid associations, and free associations of tobacco workers, typographers, carpenters, day laborers, and artisans were emerging thanks to the influence of Proudhon's ideas. While some in the labor movement were preaching reformism in collaboration with capitalist interests, the anarchists stood firm in their rejection of submission to the feat of capital. In 1885, the Junta Central de Artesanos was founded to unite Cuba's workers in federations. In the same year, Enrique Masonier launched the Circulo de Trabajadores, or Workers' Circle, which was focused on educational and cultural activities. The Workers' Circle became the largest labor organization in

Cuba in the late 1880s. It hosted a secular school for 500 poor students to challenge Cuba's public and religious schools, it held rallies for groups of workers, and it led anti-nationalist and anti-racist education efforts. Anarchists were also challenging discrimination in labour and immigration policies. By 1886, Spain finally outlawed slavery and the Cuban anarchists would attempt to welcome Afro-Cubans into the labour organisations, with mixed success. In 1887, Roig San Martín launched El Productor, a weekly newspaper that would become a must-read for the working people of Cuba, and to coordinate its publication and the efforts of the various workers' groups, the workers founded the Alianza Obrera, or Workers' Alliance. With the founding of the alliance and the sponsorship of another organization, La Federación de Trabajadores de Cuba, or FDC, or Federation of Cuban Workers,

the first Congreso Obrero de Cuba would be held in Havana. A majority of the members of the FDC were tobacco workers, but members of other trades also participated, like tailors and drivers and bakers and baromakers and dock workers. So that's a lot of organizations in quick succession. So to summarize, we have the Center for Instruction and Recreation, the newspapers El Productor and El Obrero, the Junta Central de Artesanos or Central Union of Artisans, El Circulo de Trabajadores or Workers Circle, La Alianza Obrera or Workers Alliance, and La Federación de Trabajadores de Cuba or FDC, which held the first Congreso Obrero, or Workers' Congress, in Cuba. All these organized efforts would spark another strike. Remember, the first threat, which did not lead to a strike, took place in 1865.

But this time it was different. In July 1888, the tobacco workers called a strike at the Henry Clay Tobacco Factory in Havana. The Worker's Circle met and agreed to begin collecting donations to support the workers out in the streets and sent delegates to Key West in Florida to solicit aid from the tobacco workers there. The Worker's Circle was very much involved in a lot of these things because they actually had a large headquarters that coordinated the offices of many workers' associations in addition to the school that I mentioned they founded. They had their fingers in a lot of the associations and solidarity efforts that were taking place. By 1889, they founded yet another school, teaching over 100 men at night and 800 children during the day, and leading to the establishment of new schools across the island. And also in 1889, those same tobacco workers in Key West

called their own general strike due to poor working conditions, low wages, and stark living conditions. And guess what? They stood in solidarity with the Cuban workers, and the Cuban workers stood in solidarity with them. The Workers' Alliance also connected with workers' organizations in Florida and fostered the solidarity between workers in Florida and Cuba. In addition to Key West, strikes would also break out in Tampa and Ybor City.

Despite some violence and the expulsion of the strike leaders, the strike in Florida ended in early 1890 with a triumph for Florida's tobacco workers, as the owners acceded to the demands for a pay increase. for Florida's tobacco workers, as the owners acceded to the demands for a pay increase. On May 1st, International Workers' Day, over 3,000 workers marched through Havana, and in this time the workers' circle was continuously expanding. But within this year also came tragedy, as in August Enrique Roig San Martin died at the age of 46. And the last of the three conflicts against Spain would be the Cuban War of Independence, which raged from 1895 to 1898. Anarchists in Cuba, New York, and Spain debated support for Cuba's independence struggle. But despite concerns, most anarchists did support independence, seeing it as an anti-colonial fight against Spanish

imperialism and an opportunity to transform the island along anarchist principles. Figures like José García, Rafael Serra, and Adrián del Valle promoted anarchist internationalism while also seeking Cuban national liberation. The final three months of that conflict escalated with US involvement, becoming known as the Spanish-American War. And following Spain's defeat, the US briefly occupied Cuba with the promise of greater autonomy in the future. Of course, we all know how that promise turned out. With repeated interventions came growing anarchist opposition. With repeated interventions came growing anarchist opposition. The U.S. occupiers overhauled the Cuban education system and introduced a new model influenced by American principles,

emphasizing liberal arts, manual instruction, and civic education to republicanize the children of Cuba and promote democracy. In spite of some reforms, the Cuban education system still suffered corruption, inadequate infrastructure, and overcrowded classrooms. In 1899, just a year after independence, the Workers' Alliance organized a Mason's Strike, which extended into the construction trade and also led to several arrests and the overall repression of the anarchists. This is a persistent theme, of course. Yes, I mean, it's interesting how, in a lot of the political stuff we learn about Cuba, it's more based on the socialist and more communist struggles of the 20th century. And I knew that there were anarchists active before that, and even during that time period as well but there is a lot of

this that seems to be not nearly as uh talked about or emphasized as the later more socialist leaning struggles that came and you'll notice that you know in places where the Marxists won, basically any of the pre-Marxist victory history of anarchist involvement tends to be diminished or erased entirely. Yeah, in literally every struggle all across the world where that's happened, that does seem to be the case. Exactly, exactly. When I found this information, my mind was blown. across the world where that's happened it's that does seem to be the case exactly exactly when i when i found this information my my mind was blown you know i had no idea all of this was going on

yeah the fact that from as early as prudon's lifetime there were anarchists in cuba organizing associations i mean come on yeah in like the 1850s. And it gets bigger. A lot more takes place. I haven't even really breached the 20th century yet. That's when things really kick off. Let's get to that after this message from our sponsors. All right, we are back. Let's return to Andrew's discussion of anarchism in Cuba.

Yes. So, also in 1899, some new anarchist projects dropped onto the scene. You know, you had the Liga General de Trabajadores, or General League of Workers, which emerged with the backing of Messonnier and another anarchist, Ramón Rivero y Rivero. And you also had the publication Tierra, which was founded by anarchists Abelardo Saavedra and Francisco González Sola. And the publication El Nuevo Ideal was also founded, but it only lasted a couple of years. IDL was also founded but it only lasted a couple years. Notably it loudly opposed the US's plans for annexing Cuba and the introduction of the Platt Amendment to the Cuban Constitution which would provide pretense for US intervention in the future. The Platt Amendment was really that point

in the Cuban Constitution that would justify US invasion and involvement for years to come. Here's a little Easter egg, a little fun fact, a little cameo. In fact, you could call him a running cameo for the anarchists worldwide. A familiar face because he showed up in Havana in this year and he also showed up in Egypt during their anarchist struggle for those who'd remember that episode any ideas who trying to try to think of this time period who at this point at this point you could call him mr worldwide the anarchist mr worldwide yeah i i don't think so

i i i think i would only make a fool of myself yeah Yeah, the one and only Errico Malatesta arrives in Cuba. Oh, okay. Okay, that makes sense. That makes sense, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, Mr. Will White. Of course, it didn't take long before he was barred from speaking in public

and he very quickly had to leave Cuba. But he was there. He did show up. And then we reached, you know, the turn of the century, right? you know the turn of the century right just after the turn of the century on may 20th 1902 the first republic of cuba was inaugurated with the recognition of the u.s but despite the severe opposition the u.s retained influence over cuba with that plat amendment with independence manyans aspired to build a more egalitarian

nation. The Cuban anarchists continued to struggle even as they were becoming disillusioned by the continued prioritization of individual profits over society well-being, the repression of labor, and the terrible educational systems. They had their first truly general strike in 1902, known as the Apprentice Strike, but it was suppressed and failed. And with its failure, leading figures in the Liga General de Trabajadores, like Messonnier and Rivero y Rivero, retired from the labor struggle. Anarchists organized in the sugar industry, which was met with a violent response from the owners, including the murder of two prominent anarchist figures, Casanias and Montero. The year before the U.S. recognition of Cuban independence in 1901, just across the pond in Spain,

Francisco Ferrer had founded his first modern school. Ferrer is an icon in the sphere of anarchist education for his pioneering efforts. As anarchists in Cuba were condemning public schools for their condition, pedagogy, patriotic indoctrination, and lack of critical thinking, they were inspired by the alternative education rooted in rationalism and free inquiry that was introduced by Ferrer. At this point, is there like a decent bit of communication between the anarchists in Spain and the anarchists in Cuba? Because all the stuff you've been mentioning sounds very reminiscent of some of the anarchist-syndicalist models that would grow to more prominence in Spain in the coming decades. Oh yeah, for sure. It feels very similar.

There was a very large Spanish immigrant community in Cuba at the time of Spanish workers. And that would actually end up biting the anarchist movement in the butt later on and you know you'll see how okay yeah there was a lot of there was a lot of cross-pollination between the Spanish anarchists and the Cuban anarchists that makes sense in many cases they were both Spanish and Cuban sure and so when Freya pops out with this school in Barcelona and in other places in Spain, I mean, the Cuban anarchists had already been organized in education before,

as their program had always sought to raise consciousness and prepare for social revolution. But Ferrer offered that extra dose of inspiration. You know, his modern schools introduced things like free play and individual liberty and really inspired the founding of educational experiments across Europe, Asia, and the Americas. In 1905, Jovino Villar opened VERDAD, a co-educational primary and secondary school in Havana, following Ferrer's principles of free inquiry and individual liberty. In 1906, the CES school was established in Regla, embracing the advanced pedagogical methods of the Spanish anarchist schools. And that very same year, 1906, the U.S. intervened in Cuba again.

They couldn't even let a decade go by of independence before they say, nah, we're stepping in. So of course, in response, strikes break out in Havana, Sego de Avila, and Santiago de Cuba. Anyway, so that's going on and anarchists are also organizing speaking tours. In 1908, anarchists formed the group Educación del Porvenir, or Education of the Future, in Regla, which sought to establish modern schools across the island. The Liga General de Trabajadores also got involved in the group's efforts. Unfortunately, internal conflicts and financial difficulties undermined the initial wave of Vanakas schools in this time. Meanwhile, private school options, particularly of the religious variety, were proliferating across Cuba. Eventually, in 1909, Ferrer was arrested and executed by Spanish authorities, which actually triggered a protest in Cuba and also triggered resistance elsewhere in the world that would simultaneously seek to advocate his ideas further and, of course, to honor his memory.

Turning now into the 1910s, it was a very eventful period, let's just say. You know, the Mexican Revolution was occurring, which inspired Cuba's workers and peasants. The Mexican Revolution was occurring, and that inspired Cuba's workers and peasants. There was actually, just as there was cross-pollination between Spanish anarchists and Cuban anarchists, there was cross-pollination between Cuban anarchists and Mexican anarchists. You know, anarchist Ricardo Flores Mag magon a titanic figure in mexican revolution actually had a stand in relationship with the cuban paper tierra as the paper was critical of the mexican dictator at the time uh porfirio diaz so while the guns of the revolutionary

emiliano zapata were firing in mexico tobacco workers, teamsters, and bakers were striking in Cuba. In 1912, a congress was formed in Cruces with the aim to create an island-wide labor federation. But another significant event occurred in 1912. You see, all this time, Afro-Cubans were playing significant roles in the island's labor movements, particularly through strikes such as the 1899 Mason Strike and the Sugar Workers Struggles. Despite this, they were dealing with a lot of political and cultural persecution and faced high illiteracy rates, job discrimination, and disenfranchisement due to literacy and property requirements for voting.

Naturally, Afro-Cubans wanted to fight against this, so they formed their own political party, the Independent Party of Colour, or PIC, and the government quickly outlawed it, which triggered several violent attacks on PIC supporter meetings throughout 1912. It was essentially a race riot, and it killed as many as 6,000 Afro-Cubans, and resulted in another 900 thrown in jail and charged with rebellion. And in this time, the anarchist response was weaker than it could have been. Writers like Adrian Del Valle and Eugenio Leante pressed the importance of education and the good upbringing of children to root out the racist attitudes that led to the massacre. Writers like Adrian Del Valle and Eugenio Leante pressed the importance of education and the importance of a good upbringing of children to root out the racial

attitudes, the racist attitudes that led to the massacre as those attitudes were still present a mere generation after abolition. The anarchists were, as would be consistent with their principles, critical of the PIC's political approach of bourgeois elections, but they did admire Afro-Cuban culture and recognize their contributions to workers' liberation movements. But as far as I can tell, they didn't do much else beyond education to combat racist attitudes, likely feeling powerless to prevent the violence in 1912 due to their own repression by the state. And of course, it isn't a binary of Afro-Cubans and anarchists, as there were Afro-Cubans in the anarchist movement, including prominent figures like Rafael Serra, who remained

active into the 1940s, the printer Pablo Guerra, and Margarito Iglesias, who was the black anarchist leader of the Manufacturers Union in the 1920s. Still, despite this overlap, the anarchists still couldn't shake their perception as whites and foreigners. Which is still a dynamic at play today with anarchists. As people often frame anarchists all as like white teenagers, I guess, and will often discount the presence of black anarchists

and other anarchists or people of color. Yeah. I'm a bit at a loss as to what I could say from this armchair position that they could have done differently in 1912. Sure. They definitely could have stepped up and tried to defend those communities and to stand with those communities

in solidarity but at the same time you know i wasn't there in 1912 so i'm not sure what how things played out but i do think that while the heart is in the right place with education to root out racist attitudes you know consciousness raising is one thing but you really do have to you know put yourself on the line when it comes to defending marginalized groups especially if you're coming from a position of relative privilege being white or being Spanish in you know recently post-colonial Cuba barely even post-colonial Cuba. Barely even post-colonial Cuba. You know? Yeah, I mean, I'm in the same position

as you here, or even further possessing an inability to try to critique from the 21st century. But do you know what I do feel comfortable in calling? Is this next ad break. All right, we are back. Let's return to our discussion of anarchism in Cuba in the 1910s.

So 1913, as we're speaking of the repression of the anarchist movement, the third president of Cuba would step up, that is, General Mario Garcia Menocal. And during his reign, the government would ramp up the repression of the anarchists with the passing of anti-anarchist laws and the closure of anarchist organizations. of anti-anarchist laws and the closure of anarchist organizations. There were crackdowns against the radical activities from 1914 on and the suspension of the Tierra publication and the deportation of many anarchists. Of course, in spite of the repression, the anarchist movement began to

recover by 1917, with the Centro Obrero or Worker's Center being established in Havana, leading to a resurgence of anarchist education and organized activity. Between 1918 and 1919, four general strikes would break out in Havana, and the US sent a flotilla in response to the disorder. The government suspended constitutional guarantees, deported even more anarchists, and closed the Centro Obrero. constitutional guarantees deported even more anarchists and closed the centro obrero around this time you also had the anarcho-naturists which i really didn't know where to fit into all of this so i'll just put them here to give you a reprieve from the repression naturists yeah yeah so take this as like a a breath of fresh air from all of the repression against anarchists by the

state you had the anarcho-naturists that's what i haven't heard before are these like old-timey green anarchists i guess no okay i'll actually be the judge of that i'll actually be the judge of that it's like actual like naturist philosophy yes ah oh weird yes the naturist movement was developed in Europe and North America during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and it focused on alternative personal health and lifestyle practices such as adopting vegetarianism,

exercise, nudism, and small village life to combat the effects of industrial mass society. Okay, so there is little tidbits of like what would become anarcho-primitivism in here,

but it's definitely not like a one-to-one overlap. Yeah, yeah. Especially not in Cuba. In Cuba, the anarchists aimed to shift the naturist movement's focus away from primarily individual health concerns to an emphasis on social emancipatory themes so by 1910 you had lectures on the turismo and although it didn't have the broader emancipatory dimensions

initially later in the decade the movement would gain some momentum and the naturist association would expand to establish branches across Cuba and even Tampa, Florida. Huh, okay. Now, anarcho-naturism in Cuba wasn't too big on the nudism aspect of the naturism, but they did emphasize the vegetarian self-sufficiency against the reliance on capitalism and sought to learn and teach alternative medicine to help people deal with the health problems brought about by factory and field work and toxic living conditions. Okay.

I know the Anacronatris actually lasted well into the 1950s, so good for them. But let's get back into the timeline. If you know anything about history, you know what significant event takes place in Russia in 1917. The Russian Revolution would reverberate across the landscape of workers' struggles for decades to come. In the next episode, we'll see how the Bolsheviks' rise would shape the anarchist movement in Cuba leading up to the rise of Castro, as well as how anarchists have endured since then. Until then, I'm It Could Happen Here, me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a

chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. You know that rush of endorphins you feel after a great workout? Well, that's when the real magic happens. So if you love hearing real, inspiring stories

from the people you know follow and admire join me every week for post run high it's where we take the conversation beyond the run and get into the heart of it all it's light-hearted pretty crazy and very fun listen to post run high on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. and a vibrant community of literary enthusiasts dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories. Black Lit is for the page-turners, for those who listen to audiobooks while commuting or running errands, for those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge between the chapters. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Together, we'll dissect classics and contemporary works while uncovering the stories of the brilliant writers behind them.

Blacklit is here to amplify the voices of Black writers and to bring their words to life. Listen to Blacklit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how tech's elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists

to leading journalists in the field. And I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things

that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God, things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. welcome to could happen here i'm andrew siege of the youtube channel andrewism i'm again joined by garrison say hello again hello again see see what i did there very very good very original and very funny fantastic so last time we were discussing the forgotten history of cuban anarchism i mean took you by surprise it took me by surprise and i think it's taken some of the audience by surprise too you know the fact that from the very first peronian mutualist society in 1857

to the rise of the anarchist organizations the to the strike activities, to the schools, to even the anarcho-naturists. All of this was going on from the mid-19th century all the way into the early 20th century, even in the height of repression in the 1910s. And the cycle of US intervention as well. I guess what I'm kind of curious about in this time period is like before like the socialist revolution were like the anarchists more prominent than some of like the actual communists for my research it does seem so yes yeah like that's kind of what it sounds like like they were kind of the main political block for like almost 75 years well things things do make a turn yeah like the main political block

on like like the like the left specifically i guess like the if you count anarchism as part of the left which mean for the case of simplicity let's say sure uh i don't no yes but me personally i wouldn't be caught dead adhering to like french political taxonomy but no totally but in terms of its relation to like labor especially especially during this time period of like i don't you mean i just like being difficult sometimes oh absolutely i mean yeah that is i agree with you in a lot of cases but from a like a historical standpoint it kind of makes sense when like all these almost all these people are like anarcho communists or anarcho-syndicalists oh i mean you did have the anarcho-naturists and the anarcho-naturists there you go the three genders and i mean technically the mutualists as well i mean honestly

the divide the the stringent divide between the anarchist schools of thought wouldn't really come into play until we get into like the early 20th century so which we are entering right now yes which we have entered so where do we leave off we left off on the big bang there was the russian revolution remember i said that things will take a turn that is the turn the russian wizard has been killed. Sad. Indeed. I promised to discuss how the death of that Russian wizard would impact Cuba going forward into the 1920s and beyond. So, here we are. Aquí estamos.

Once again, this info is thanks to the work of Cohen R. Schaffer, Stephen J. Hirsch, Lucian van der Waal, Sam Doolgolf, and Frank Fernandez. So, in 1920, the anarchists formed a congress to advocate a series of immediate and transitory economic measures to resolve the high cost of living brought about by the decrease in sugar prices. Because remember, Cuba's economy was dependent on sugar, and tobacco, and coffee. was dependent on sugar and tobacco and coffee. They also formed, the anarchists that is, the Confederation Nationale de Trabajo or National Confederation of Workers.

Following the Bolshevik victory in Russia, it took a minute for the world to find out what happened to all the anarchists in Russia. I mean, it was the 1920s, they didn't have Twitter. But in the meantime meantime the anarchists sent a fraternal salute to the brothers who in russia have established the ussr which is interesting and yeah that that is interesting yeah it's like they have a whole thing coming it's exciting for the time though right like you're seeing like this thing finally happened you're like oh we have like we have like a real chance yeah yeah i mean i feel like it's like a two panel meme you know it's like the the the victory before the yeah very much yeah yeah i mean they knew that the anarchists what what they did know, of course, was the anarchists had a visible and vital role in that revolution.

Absolutely. Reality that is unfortunately forgotten today, but very well known back then. So with the rise of the Soviets, it seemed as though the dream of three generations of struggles against the injustices of capitalism in the state had reached its conclusion. Again, they didn't know what happened to the anarchists and the Lenin yet. Their attitude of jubilation toward the success of the Bolsheviks would of course change very shortly. But the anarchists in Cuba still had some hope in unity though, despite some debate amongst themselves about aligning with the Marxists in Cuba. See, at the time, the anarcho-syndicalist movement was leading the formation

of labor organizations and federations, with figures like Alfredo Lopez and Antonio Peniche, and well, they were largely in favor of cross-sectarian alliances and collaboration in the promotion of alternative education projects. And after the Congress of 1920, Cuba's workers pressed their demands with renewed force, in solidarity altogether, leading to bombings in Havana and another general strike on Média. Figures like Peniché and Salinas were jailed and a bomb was set off in the Teatro Nacional in protest. Though initially condemned to death, Peniché and Salinas were eventually pardoned and released at the beginning of 1921 with the fall of García Menocal's government. This is when Alfredo Zayas' moderate government came into power, and this is when the anarcho-syndicalist Federación Obrera de la Habana, or FOH, or Workers' Federation of Havana, was founded.

The Workers' Federation of Havana inaugurated its Rational School and Library in 1922, aiming to counter public and private education's emphasis on religion and patriotism. to counter public and private education's emphasis on religion and patriotism. In 1925, the Second Congreso Nacional Obrero is celebrated in San Fuegos, and the Confederación Nacional Obrera de Cuba, or National Confederation of Cuban Workers, or SINOC, is founded by anarcho-syndicalists in Camagüey. The SINOC was a big tent organization, so although it was initially led by anarcho-syndicalists, there were reformist and Marxist elements in there as well. And you'll see the results of big tent organization very soon. Also in 1925, the Partido Comunista Cubano or PCC was founded in Havana. or PCC, was founded in Havana. And in 1925, there was a strike among railway and sugar workers,

which would provoke government repression. And in 1925, Gerardo Machado would be elected to the office of presidency. Now, pay attention to the PCC, because they become relevant again later on. They're going to be a recurring character. Yes. So President Gerardo Machado's administration vowed to suppress worker militancy, leading to another crackdown on foreigners and radicals, including the anarchist schools,

and marking another decline of the anarchist movement's influence. But despite repression under the Machado dictatorship, anarchists continued to agitate, with some fleeing into exile and overall refusing to cooperate with the government. They founded militant groups such as Espartaco and Los Solidarios and later the Federación de Grupos Anarquistas de Cuba, or FGSE. They engaged in street fighting against the government and also in several failed assassination attempts against Machado. I don't know what it is with Cuban leaders,

but they seem to have trouble getting assassinated. So while the anarchists and I would like to give them the benefit of the doubt, presumably some Marxists were engaged in such resistance. And I say presumably because they were into the focus of my research. But from what I could see, it was the anarchists who were engaged in such resistance. Anyway, that's tangential.

that's tangential the operatives of the popular socialist party or psp chose to make compromises with the various dictatorial governments in order to be allowed control of the labor unions as well as some other perks well that doesn't sound like it could result in any problems yeah so lock in here okay the psp would later be absorbed by the organizaciones revolucionarias integradas which would later become the partido unido de la revolución socialista de cuba which would later be refounded as the partido comunista cubano orano, or PCC, aka the Cuban Anarchist Party, Cuba, the Communist Party of Cuba. There's like this weird loop happening here. Yes, yes. So the PSP would go on to become part of the PCC, even though when they were initially founded,

the PSP and the PCC were separate organizations. Totally, okay. So coming into the 1930s, starting with 1930, a streetcar strike led to a general strike backed by almost all of the unions. The strike failed, unfortunately, due to poor planning by the SINOC, which had come into the hands of the PCC.

You see, with the continuous deportation, exile, and murder of anarchists by the Machado government, the Marxists in the CNOC, who had been taking orders from the PCC the whole time, were told, okay, now's your chance, take advantage of the situation, the anarchists out of the way, let's take over the CNOC. So in 1933, another transportation strike breaks out in Havana, which leads to another general strike and further violence. And the PCC used their control over the CNOC to make a deal with Machado to end the general strike. Even though they were not the ones that started it in the first place. Making a deal to end a strike that they didn't start.

Indeed. Very, very cool stuff now they call this real politic power move the august era but to me that's way too soft considering what they did you see it wasn't a mayor whoopsie you know the pcc ordered the striking workers to return to their jobs and they tried to work with machado's murderous secret police to make that happen no it's just like counterinsurgency thankfully the pcc's attempt to sick machado's dogs on the strike and workers failed due to the resistance of the anarchists of the Havana Federation of Labor and other organized labor forces. It's funny how like it's not the same things happen now I guess but very similar

things happen where you have like these like big like above ground kind of orgs that'll try to make concessions with with like whether that's like like police or with like whatever kind of orgs that'll try to make concessions with with like whether that's like like police or with like whatever kind of institution that people are like opposing you'll have these these big like you know big groups try to make concessions and it's always left to the anarchists to be like no we actually have to keep fighting this actually doesn't the this sort of this this sort of like attempts at calling like victory or trying to end things actually is not what you claim it to be and we have to keep going and it is something that always falls back on like some of like the more anarchist aligned contingents in popular

struggles yeah and i see why the why the old anarchists get a bit jaded and crotchety you know because you see you see these feelings happening again and again like why are you cheering you know like you have not won you know this is not a victory this is the precursor to squad wipe to like absolute defeat you know yeah game over but unfortunately some people have to burn to learn it seems unfortunately until we speak more prominently of the mistakes of the past more honestly of the mistakes of the past instead of this sort of whitewashed oh the glorious revolutionary movements of the past oh you know like wow so cool until we start to like engage honestly with our history and

like the mistakes and whatnot these kind of things are just going to continue to happen you know and that's why i also appreciate you know the sort of honesty that anarchists have where they'll be willing to call i mean not not all you know especially new anarchists tend to be a bit more defensive but and i appreciate the willingness to call out what the CNT did in Spain that was wrong or what the Black Army in Ukraine did that was wrong. We don't have to follow along the party line. Sweeping, like you have to defend their honor. Yeah, exactly.

We don't have to follow along the party line in the same way that all these other groups seem to do. There is a much more open consideration towards critiquing things that even you feel like you can like learn from and you feel like we're like like struggles like struggles worth learning from and struggles worth fighting for but you don't have this the need to be like you have to defend every single thing that x person did because it's like i know it it it, it, it, it gets, it, it gets very weird when you have these like 19 year old communists who are like, no, Stalin's good actually,

which is a whole, a whole other topic. But, but, uh, yeah, even in like smaller scale things, just the resistance to having to, to adhere to the party line on a lot of these topics when you just don't have a party. So it allows you to be way more open in your consideration of what has worked, what hasn't worked. Yeah. Free association for the win.

I don't have a funny ad pivot based on free association, but here's some ads that you can freely listen to if you desire all right we're back so the very same month that the pcc tried and failed to call off a strike that never started in the first place. Machado was forced from office by a military coup backed by the US working with several political factions, including the PCC. So the PCC was kind of playing both sides. They were like, yeah, let's work with Machado

and then let's also help overthrow Machado. Interesting. Huh. Very interesting. Yeah. So that coup, along with the u.s huh very interesting yeah so that coup along with the 1933 revolution it was part of resulted from the opposition of the cuban people to president machado's attempts to keep himself in power with flames further fanned by the widespread misery caused by the economic collapse of 1929 anarchists were of course participants in the strikes and the revolutionary actions during this time.

Military forces and student activists were also very much involved. So, Carlos Manuel de Cispedes y Quesada came to lead a provisional government, which led to the installation of a new government led by a five-man coalition, known as the Pentarchy of 1923. But after only five days, the pentarchy gave way to the presidency of ramon grau san martin whose term became known as the 100 days government for obvious reasons it really only lasted about 100 days because it decided to defy the u.s and remove the platte amendment from the cuban constitution and it also introduced the eight hour workday and tried to intervene in the American-owned electrical and telephone utility

companies. But before you celebrate that government as a champion of the working people, it also contributed to the suppression of the Cuban anarchist movement, which had a significant foreign-born labor base, with the introduction of the 50% law, which forced owners to reserve at least half their jobs for Cubans. That law prompted many of the Spanish anarchists – remember, they were a very prominent part of the anarchist movement in Cuba – to return to Spain, where, as you may know, a civil war would kick off rather soon so the leader of the revolt against the hundred days government was sergeant fulgencio batista who became the head of the armed forces and began a long period of influence on cuban politics the summer of 1933 obviously marked the end of the

cooperative relationship between cuban anarchists and communists you know because of the whole pcc sicken much as dogs and the anarchists and all that yeah i could see that being non-conducive to a working partnership it's a toxic toxic situation you know they have to co-parent the labor movement separately anyway so yeah violence would erupt between the two groups the federación de grupos anarquistas de cuba or fgac published a manifesto denouncing the traitorous actions of the pcc in collaboration with machado in 1935 the pcc exposed its alignment for all to see see after batista basically told the pcc yeah don't call a general strike after the pcc tried to call a general strike the pcc was like okay we won't call a general strike and then the pcc adopted moscow's popular front line and basically aligned themselves with batista

and what's interesting is you see but what batista desperately needed to like secure his legitimacy was an electoral base basically he needed a large group of people to say yeah we back his leadership sure he needed some form of like legitimacy exactly and so the pcc in aligning themselves with batista they created that electoral base for his growing dictatorial ambitions. You see, he started off as a president before he became like a full-on dictator. Many such cases. Many such cases. And one of the historians I was telling you about, Fernando Fernandez, he wrote that the PCC actually offered batista a deal put in all of the machinery of cuban and

international communism at his service and it promised to deliver votes in the coming elections which batista badly needed in exchange the pcc was to be given the recently government created confederation de trabajadores de cuba the ctc the cuban confederation de Trabajadores de Cuba, the CTC, the Cuban Confederation of Workers. And the CTC was basically meant to be the largest, most centralized labor organization in Cuba, one that would combine all of the existing factions. Okay, that, yeah, yeah, yeah. And unlike the previous umbrella organization, which, as you may remember, was the CNOC,

the CTC was meant to be ideological it was meant to marry unionism to the state it was meant to be under the control of batista through the pcc from the very beginning you know the cnoc started off being led by anarcho-syndicalist but it was big tent it was like you know bringing all the ideologies but no the ctc is like yeah we are explicitly state aligned yeah meanwhile you know in 1936 the spanish civil war would erupt and you know the cuban anarchists who were in solidarity with the spanish anarchists would establish the solidaridad internacional anti-fascista to aid them and some of them even went to spain to participate but by 1939 with the defeat of the Spanish Republic,

surviving Cuban anarchists returned to the island. In the 1940s... It's interesting because when they returned, they also returned with a lot more experience as well. Indeed. I wonder if that will lead to anything. Hmm. We'll see.

Curious. that will lead to anything we'll see curious so in the 1940s over 100 delegates met at the ranch to establish the asociacion libertaria de cuba or alc since the stalinist dominated ctc had purged anarchists and other militant labor activists, the ALC was formed to challenge state control and Stalinist influence within the labor movement. The ALC held a congress attended by 155 delegates in 1948, and in that congress they discussed the creation of a libertarian society in Cuba and they established the Solidaridad Gastronomica, which was a publication meant to serve as their official organ. Carlos Prio Socaras assumed the Cuban presidency in 1948, following the presidency of Ramon Grau San Martin, because he actually got another chance to be president after the 100 days government, and then you had a few filler presidents after that and then you had

batista's run as president but anyway so prio becomes president and the anarchists try and fail to create a new labor confederation the confederation general the trabajadores or cgt and it was meant to be independent of the ctc unfortunately, thanks to reformist elements, the Stalinists and the government, it suffered under an extensive propaganda campaign against the initiative in both the Cuban communications media and in the officially approved unions. But despite everything, the anarchists were enduring on the grassroots level, and there were anarchist militants scattered everywhere and anarchist propagandists in every provincial capital. By the way, it is interesting that the Stalinists would gleefully purge the

anarchists to appease their own thirst for power earlier in the decade, considering that they themselves would be expelled from their posts in the CTC by the government under US pressure. CTC by the government under US pressure. Prio declared the PSP illegal, motivating the Stalinists to eye themselves yet again with their old buddy, old pal, Fulgencio Batista. In 1950, the ALC would hold another congress aiming to reorganize the Cuban Union movement against its control by bureaucrats, politicians, cults, and religionists. The Congress repudiated the CTC and dedicated itself to maintain the CGT's struggle in spite of President Prio's repression. In 1952, Batista took power in a coup, and the ALC joined other revolutionary groups in armed resistance to the dictatorship in the cities and the countryside.

Despite facing imprisonment, torture, and kidnapping, they challenged Batista's rule through propaganda distribution, clandestine activities, and coordinated sabotage efforts. They even worked with groups like the Directorio Revolucionario, the Federation of University Students, and elements within Castro's group, the M26J. The M26J, by the way, despite taking credit for everything, had little to no involvement in many of the uprisings that took place in this period. They tried at one point to call a general strike, but it was badly organized and uncoordinated with other revolutionary groups, so of course it failed.

Meanwhile, the ALC's meeting hall not only distributed information and coordinated sabotage efforts but even taught some of castro's fighters how to shoot firearms sure yeah yeah yeah by december 31st 1958 also it's very sad that they would teach some of Castro's fighters how to shoot firearms, considering the direction those firearms would be shooting in very soon. Yes, that is tragically ironic. Yeah. So, December 31st, 1958, Batista flees Cuba, marking the end of his regime and the beginning of a new era. As Castro's revolutionary government gained power, tensions would rise as he consolidated control and marginalized dissenting voices. Any hope anarchists had for social change following

1959 would be crushed by the increasing centralization and bureaucratization of the government. Further purges of anarchists from the CTC, which, by the way, they renamed the CTC-R, by the way, they renamed the CTC R, as in CTC Revolutionary. And they also militarized it. They forced a bunch of the workers to create militias.

And, you know, with Castro's public alignment with Marxism-Leninism, the suppression, the revolutionary tribunals, and the exile of anarchists and other dissidents. In January 1960, the ALC held an assembly and expressed support for the Cuban Revolution while rejecting dictatorship everywhere. By the end of the year, they would publish the final issue of their publication, Solidaridad

Gastronomica. The ALC fell under government pressure. The LC fell under government pressure. And unlike previous Cuban governments, Castro's regime was extra bloodthirsty with the working class and peasant dissenters. That same year, the Grupo de Sindicalistas Libertarios issued a document criticizing the Cuban government's direction, fearing the increasing totalitarianism. They had to change their name to avoid reprisals. As the PCC's organ, OI, responded to the Grupo de Sindicalistas Libertarios document with insults and accusations.

That same year, the Movimiento de Acción Sindical began circulating a bulletin critical of the PCC and Castro. They too would be suppressed. After the failed Bay of Pigs invasion in 1961, Castro's government intensified its suppression of opposition, including anarchists. The anarchist movement also bore a terrible betrayal, as Manuel Gayona Sousa, a prominent anarchist, betrayed his comrades by endorsing the Castro regime and denouncing the anarchists who opposed it. Some anarchists would end up in prison, some would flee to Florida,

where they would unfortunately be grouped with the Batista supporters who had also fled to Florida at that time, and an international solidarity effort emerged, with donations from various anarchist groups worldwide to aid Cuban anarchists' escape. The anarchists that fled the CUEA formed the Movimiento Libertario Cubano en Exilio, the MCLE, or Cuban Anarchist Movement in Exile, and continued to advocate for anarchist principles through publications like Guancara Libertaria. The New York-based Libertarian League, led by figures like Sam Dogoff, provided critical support to these exiles. But you know what really sucks? The Cuban anarchists had to struggle to garner support

from their fellow anarchists around the world thanks to the propaganda efforts of the Castro regime the Cuban anarchists were smeared as CIA agents which is if you may recall still a favorite tactic of campus authoritarians interesting and yeah interesting to see uh how it's literally the same yeah in fact one anarchist group in south america the federation anarchista uruguaya even split between pro and anti-castro factions the pro-castro majority went on to join the marxist lenders to Bologna in 1965 to address the confusion among anarchists globally regarding Cuba. They came out of that conference condemning Castroism and expressing support for Cuban anarchists. for Cuban anarchists. But despite the efforts of Abelardo Iglesias to present the Cuban anarchists'

viewpoint, many anarchist groups in Europe and Latin America still aligned with Castroism, viewing criticism of the regime as opposition to the broader socialist revolution. But despite the skepticism of their peers and the refusal of some anarchist publications to even hear them out, the Cuban anarchists continued their activism in exile. They published works denouncing the Castro regime and sought to clarify their position within the global anarchist movement. Back in Cuba, the remaining anarchists dwindled in size as most had either left or rotting in prison. In the 70s and beyond, the Cuban anarchists faced isolation and defamation. In the 70s and beyond, the Cuban anarchists faced isolation and defamation. They still accuse this day of being in service of reaction.

It's only with Sam Dolkoff's book The Cuban Revolution, A Critical Perspective, in 1976 that attitudes began to shift, leading to a gradual reassessment of the MLCE within the anarchist community. the anarchist community. In 1979, the MLCI renewed ties with the Anarchist Confederación Nacional de Trabajo slash Asociación Internacional de los Trabajadores, the CNT-AIT, during a congress in Madrid. Subsequent publications and articles further clarified the MLCI's position on Castroism, marking the end of a long and damaging chapter of derision against them. In 1980, Guangara Libertaria emerged as a new platform for Cuban anarchists in exile. Initially cautious in its advocacy due to the hostile political climate in Miami, Guangara gradually became more explicitly anarchist and critical of both Castro's regime and the reactionary exile community. It played a significant role in challenging pro-Castro narratives

and fostering international solidarity among anarchists. As of recently, as in the 21st century, the Taller Libertario Alfredo López or Alfredo López Libertarian Workshop, has published a few pieces on anarchism in the Cuban context. They even took part in the creation of the Central American and Caribbean Anarchist Federation. And before anyone asks, I haven't found a way to get in contact with them yet. The recent decentralized protests in Cuba sparked a deluge of conflicting narratives from various sources. Where on one side, Cuban authorities and leftist supporters defended the regime, blaming the economic crisis and health challenges on the US blockade while treating Cuban critics with one broad reactionary brush,

on the other hand you had the right-wing media criticizing the lack of freedoms under the communist government. While amidst this, anarchists sought a deeper understanding, While amidst this, anarchists sought a deeper understanding, seeking neither alignment with the US nor the Cuban government, but seeking understanding of the needs of the people frustrated by the pandemic and the failures of the government. The condition that Cuba is in now obviously is due to the impact of the US's blockade, which should be lifted immediately. But it shouldn't be missed that the government uses the blockade to divert attention from other matters, where it does deserve significant critique. Emergency measures were eventually implemented to appease the protesters,

but it remains to be seen what the outcome of that frustration of the people will be in the long term. As Francisco Fernandez wrote in Cuban Anarchism, the history of a movement, hopefully there are those in this generation who will take up the legacy of their forebearers so that the roots of anarchism that are now buried in the fertile Cuban soil will once again spring to life. Anyway, this has been the forgotten history of anarchism in Cuba. This has been It Can Happen Here. And this has been Andrew Sage. All power to all the people.

Peace. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. You know that rush of endorphins you feel after a great workout? Well, that's when the real magic happens. So if you love hearing real, inspiring stories from the people you know,

follow, and admire, join me every week for Post Run High. It's where we take the conversation beyond the run and get into the heart of it all. It's lighthearted, pretty crazy, and very fun. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories. Black Lit is for the page turners, for those who listen to audiobooks while commuting or running errands, for those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge between the chapters. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Together, we'll dissect classics and contemporary works while uncovering the stories of the

brilliant writers behind them. Blacklit is here to amplify the voices of Black writers and to bring their words to life. Listen to Blacklit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hola mi gente, it's Honey German and I'm bringing you Gracias, Come Again, the podcast where we dive deep into the world of Latin culture, musica, peliculas, and entertainment with some of the biggest names in the game. If you love hearing real conversations with your favorite Latin celebrities, artists, and culture shifters, this is the podcast for you. We're talking real

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German, where we get into todo lo actual y viral. Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to It Could Happen Here, a podcast where my old bookstore from college is unionized and I'm very excited about it. I'm your host, Mia Wong, and with me to talk about this tremendous event are Caleb, Theo, and Finn from the Seminary Co-op Booksellers Union. Yeah, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having us. This is so exciting. Yeah, thank you.

for having us this is so exciting thank you yeah i'm excited too both because i think somehow in the mult that i got almost three years i've been doing this show now jesus christ that is terrifying somehow i think this is the first bookstore union we've talked to which is remarkable i don't i don't know how it's taken this long but i'm so excited that y'all get the y'all the first i mean as far as we know we're the first in the city of chicago hell yeah we're the only in the city there are like past bookstores that have since closed which were unionized but yeah as best we know we're now we're currently the only union bookstore in the city of chicago proper god maybe there's one up in Evanston or something,

but seems unlikely. This is, I don't know. I've been drilling the Evanston knowledge into my listeners' heads now, so now all of you people in Rhode Island or whatever know about my hatred of Evanston. I think that's justified. An extremely fair grudge.

Okay, so speaking of grudges alright so many co-op is it's an interesting bookstore in the sense that like it is on the campus of the University of Chicago like it's just sort of there and there's been a lot of things happening on that campus in the past month or so but yeah i guess

what i wanted to i guess the place i wanted to start was sort of okay so u chicago is a campus that has a lot of union organizing happening on it in a bunch of across a bunch of different kind of they're mostly university unions but a lot of different kind of... They're mostly university unions, but a lot of different kinds of workers in the university have unions. How did that sort of impact the way this campaign started? That's a really good question. I feel like there's a few things I want to talk about. I think there's the fact that a lot of us booksellers who come to the SEM co-op were coming from,

many of us came from UChicago or had been there at some point and had been around that kind of organizing. So I think that that definitely has an impact. I also think that many of us know people because so many of us are in the community we all know a lot of people who are organizers a lot of people in the grad student union and having them to talk to and kind of like bounce ideas off of and commiserate all of that has been really great yeah and like i think it's been very emboldening to know that we have that support you know um because we have friends and comrades and roommates in gsu in faculty unions know, they kind of the whole time we've known that like, if we ever need to draw on that external support for any kind of, you know, public campaign that we have

like a connection to like a broader labor of movement in the area that that'll be there for us. This is something I guess you've already touched on a bit, but I think this leads into another question that I had, which was, yeah, i wanted to talk about the sort of the influence of campus and how how how the dynamics of that kind of change what these what these campaigns look like it's really interesting because our relationship to campus is a little bit unclear to us in terms of the way that the bookstore functions in relation to its university partners, because we work with them very closely. They're our landlord, among many other things, but we are not directly affiliated with them. And we carry course books, but that's by professor request and we can't always do it. but that's by professor request and we can't always do it.

And so it's a really close, really opaque relationship. I think the university really likes to have a bookstore that isn't like university affiliated on paper, but still very much is a part of the culture of the university and so we see a lot of that kind of inform things like our stock and the events that the uh professors that we work with and of course like the students who come in and use the space and are physically in the space every day doing work um buying their books it's it's always weird kind of doing organizing in these spaces because like i don't know you're dealing with this mixture well you chicago especially is like this where there's it's this

really kind of weird and volatile mixture of like a bunch of on the one hand like a bunch of very brave very committed like people who are doing organizing a bunch of people who are just completely checked out and then a bunch of people who are going to go lead coups in south america and like i don't know it's it's a that was my experience back doing actually god i was i was on the GSU picket line. That was half a decade ago, Jesus Christ. Sorry, this is turning into the Mia thinks about her time at UChicago episode, which it shouldn't. I think that that's something that is notable, too, is that we have a lot of community support when it comes to people who are theoretically

in favor of unionizing and theoretically in favor of labor power um and that extends all the way through our management team like they are very very in favor of the concept of labor rights and so it's really interesting trying to parse that dynamic sometimes of like okay these are people who are supposedly our biggest supporters but at the same time their actions do not very well line up with those ideals i think having a section at our store that is devoted to critical theory and marxism um while not paying us a living wage is a real funny situation the irony stings real hard yeah it's this real read the theory do not act on it but read the theory it's been uh real fun like we during like uh your course book rush seasons we

have like sem co-op trading cards with pictures of like different authors it's always really fun handing out the ones that are like Karl Marx sem co-ops number one best-selling author and no it's definitely not because every freshman at University of Chicago has to buy him from us yeah

that's another that's like kind of unrelated really funny thing but freshman at university of Chicago has to buy him from us. Yeah. That's, that's another, that's like kind of unrelated, really funny thing. But yeah, like all of the U Chicago econ dipshits, at least nominally red marks, like did,

did they open it low odds? But yeah, I don't know that, that, that seems like a, a psychologically destabilizing contradiction that you're dealing with all the time. That same kind of like contradiction between like spirit and practice, just like it's also right there in our name where we're the seminary co-op bookstore.

And like two thirds of that is not true. We haven't been affiliated with the seminary in decades. We were for a time, a member co-op like REI, but we've never been a workers co-op. We haven't even time a member co-op like rei but we've never been a workers co-op we haven't even been a member co-op since 2014 we are a bookstore so there's like that but the old one in three ain't bad thing simply does not apply here that is in fact very bad well and i think that that is like a very big part of how the larger community sees our stores as well and the like mismatch there because yeah of course we're like on the chicago campus we are

very much um connected to the student body and the faculty there but we're also like in the middle of like our neighborhood where there are plenty of other people who are not affiliated with the college who are like coming in, buying their books. There's the fact that like our, our second location down the street, 57th street books, which has like our kids sections and like a bunch of other less academic stuff.

Like that's very heavily trafficked as well. very heavily trafficked as well and the community's understanding of us as a like worker owned not not for profit which is a very confusing term because it's not a non-profit it's a not for profit that that disconnect between what the community needs and wants in its bookstores and what the management has decided our bookstores mean to the community is uh it's felt that's like a very felt uh mismatch yeah so i'm assuming that that that's sort of the kinds of things that i mean obviously the the standard not getting paid enough etc etc are those those are kinds of things that, I mean, obviously the standard not getting paid enough, et cetera, et cetera. Are those the sort of things that led into how the organizing started? Yeah, I think it's a lot the way that the mismatch is so apparent to us and it really

brought us together. We have such a unique sense of solidarity as a working cohort. I feel like there's a lot of commiseration because we walk a very weird line throughout our community and so i think it's a little bit just trying to assess what's going on in our stores and like what how does that compare to what management tells us on a regular basis and shouldn't we be doing something about that yeah i think that i know that our first like big pre-union meeting where we all got together in the basement of one of our houses and uh commiserated was like after a pretty rough like all-store meeting that we had

had in which we had continued to get really no response regarding questions about a living wage or how we choose stock for our store, how communication between management and hourly booksellers was just so lacking. And we just got the same kind of messaging that was being given to customers which is we're working on it you're all of these things that you're saying are so valid and we'll address them at a later date um yeah we were getting this great response of like you know we want to get you to not just a living wage, but a professional wage. And we have a five year plan. But we were halfway through that five year plan. this five-year plan you know suddenly increase wages to whatever a professional wage is let alone a living wage so that was just a very a very

frustrating like completely empty answer i think we were all very we were all hurt and we got like the very first message in our group chat which was just like so we're we're gonna we're gonna unionize right incredible and that was like the start of it that was like last i want to say that was january of 2023 was when that started yeah thereabouts yeah that's it that's i guess it's a pretty fast campaign by the looks of it yeah about about a bit over a year. Yeah. Yeah. Congratulations to you all, by the way. Thank you. Thanks. It's really thanks to the team that started in January, though, because they have been really, really proactive about reaching out to people when there are new booksellers.

Because I have kind of a weird tenure at the store. I've worked there two separate times, but I wasn't part of the January meeting. But when I rejoined the co-op in August, I think within the first week that I was there, one of my co-workers like came up to me while I was at the register and like in the standard getting to know you kind of speech was like, how do you feel about labor organizing? And I was like, very in favor. Why do you ask? Yeah, that that by the way, dear listener, if you're in a union, that is that is what is known And I was like, very in favor. Why do you ask? Yeah. That, by the way, dear listener, if you're in a union, that is what is known as good practice. It is, in fact, a thing that you need to do whenever someone new joins your workplace and you have a union.

Bring them in. And if you don't do this, your unions will stagnate and die. And there are unions out there who will get mad at you for doing this because it takes resources or whatever. And don't listen to them. Please stop. Simply do not do this. This is the only defense against turnover, which is huge in all of the industries that most need to unionize. Yep, yep.

We have really crazy turnover. Like, I think that of the original people who started talking i mean and this was like there was a previous unionization effort too before our time that we know very little about but of the original like january folks very few of us are left just because of the turnover rate which is immense and we get like groups of like three to four people hired at once every six months or so. And it's like, okay, how quickly can we scope folks out? How quickly can we like do like a one-on-one and talk to them about how they feel about labor organizing? How can we get a sense of like what their main concerns are with uh with the job and what they want from

unionizing yeah well and the turnover is also one of the things that sparked this because we had a wave of folks who were fired asked to leave or quit on their own terms. And we had another coworker who knew that she was kind of reaching the end of when she could, you know, stay at the bookstore and was just very committed to like getting some momentum going in her last, you know, handful of months here and created like the outside the group chat and was just very quick like all right everyone we're in the group chat like this message if you agree with the following statement and then it was like you know how statements about like how much you care about the job and then statements about like how much you agree that like a union would improve things and just about everybody agreed a union

would be a huge improvement and that was i, that was also a really incredible resource because like before someone just created the group chat, we're in this really awkward phase of like three or four different groups of people trying to get a ball rolling and very like cautiously approaching folks. I had approached one or two people and been like that same exact question. Like, how do you feel about unions

and then there was someone else who was going around asking the exact same question and you know I was also at reg one day when she came up and asked asked me that and I was like Jesus do I not have enough patches on my jacket if this is a question I need to fix something

it was a lot of like ships passing until the group chat got created and then we it was really quick we had we started having like meetings i i want to say we had one like every three weeks to a month in that first six months um we got together a letter of demands that we all read and signed it was i think at the time of the how many were working there it was like all but one maybe wow person signed it and we all went to deliver it and read it to management and got a bunch of stuff right away this was like well before yeah well before we had um like signed with a union or decided who we wanted to unionize with and we still just through that direct action got so much done and i think that's part of the success that we've had so far too is we do just have kind of a

large number in our cohort of impatient people which means that like once we figure out what we want we're just like okay what's the fastest way we can ask for this and get it recognized that first march that we did that first letter was also just i mean it really like fueled all of the rest of this i think because the stuff that we won was so i think so immediately felt for everyone working there what kinds of things uh what what kinds of things did you win in that one we won expanded health insurance um previously very few people qualified for health insurance um we got that pretty tremendously broadened um i mean that's i think how theo and i ended up getting health insurance we got things like you know improved maternity leave, improved bereavement leave. The definition of who you could take bereavement leave for was broadened. It was like previously a grid of like nine types of relation.

And then it got just fully expanded to like include chosen family and just whoever, you know, you felt the need to claim bereavement leave for, um, as well as just how many days, uh, which was tremendous. I mean, it was like a week after the change, you know, got actually implemented into our, our leave system that I found out, um, a relative was dying. And because we had gotten that expansion, I didn't have to choose between driving my grandmother to be by her bedside, be by this other relative's bedside or going to the funeral. I was able to take time off for both of those, which, you know, meant everything to me, meant everything to my grandma. Um, and so, you know, when, when we talk, when we're, um, looking at issues, when we're organizing and we talk about things that are widely felt that are deeply felt, um, that are actionable and like those kinds of changes are very deeply felt. And so there wasn't, you know, there really hasn't been a point since then when anyone could remotely make the argument that organizing doesn't create positive, impactful change.

Yeah, the handbook that I was onboarded with the second time that I came to the stores was significantly different than the handbook that I was onboarded with the first time and it was because this list of demands had gone out in the interim because the policies about like just our character as a store and the way that we want to interact with our community were completely different and it was very much that like booksellers who interact with the community on a daily basis had had a say in the meantime. Hell yeah. Okay, so unfortunately, we have to go to an ad break, but when we return, we will, I don't know, go back to what we were doing before, question mark.

I don't know, not my finest ad pivot, but, you know, look, if they paid me more, they'd get more good ad pivots, but they don't, so you're getting the medium ones. You gotta work your wage. Yeah. And we're back. Yeah, so, you know, the organizing seems to have come together pretty quickly. I guess, do you want to talk about how you ended up being an IWW shop?

um i sent out feelers to just a bunch of different unions two got back to me a larger trade union that i'm totally spacing on the name of uh or commercial union i'm the term for like the really big one the really big types of unions um and the iww and i had meetings or phone calls with representatives from both of them you and i put together kind of a graphic just sort of comparing like the pros and cons of two very different options right like a big international union or iw i mean iww obviously international it's right in there in the name, but obviously a smaller, much more autonomous union. And I wanted to go IWW. I did my absolute best to not let that bias inform the pros and cons lists and whatnot. And we, you know, we sat around in this room here and just chatted it out, talked about our preferences, what mattered to all

of us. And, you know, what we decided was that amongst other things, one of like the really big sort of organizing principles of this has been increasing our own agency and autonomy in the workplace. And the IWW's model just felt like it would give us the most control over our own campaign. And so that's how we ended up voting to become an IWW lead and then campaign and now finally shop branch. I think that the IWW really fit how our store and our organizing had worked thus far too it felt like it matched the character of our organizing it's definitely much scrappier it you know the iww having a history in chicago definitely was a factor in my personal desire to be affiliated with them.

I thought it was really cool to be joining that long tradition of IWW shops in Chicago. I think that the emphasis on direct employee action versus contract bargaining fit very well for us as well, I think especially considering things like the turnover and how we wanted to make sure that, you know, if we argued a contract, if we bargained for a contract now, that it would be difficult to know, you know, even a year or two down the line, if those points and those things that we bargained for would be what folks would want

then and so getting to use more direct action and response um to make gains in the workplace has been i think a really helpful strategy and one that the IWW facilitates really well with how it trains organizing. Yeah, that all makes a lot of sense. And I guess, you know, the question from there is how did management sort of react and what's been the kind of relationship vibe since then? relationship vibe since then i mean management voluntarily recognized us immediately um but they also had very clear notice ahead of time that we had been organizing like we had been presenting them with demands on a regular basis we had been emailing them from an anonymous account requesting that they close the stores when the cold was too intense for most of us to safely get to work like they would be very very deeply

buried under the rocks if they didn't know that we were like talking to each other um so i think that they had a plan and they also know the character of our community which is very theoretically leftist and so they knew that they really didn't have another option because like we were at critical mass and they would look really bad in the eyes of everyone that they respect if they said nothing. announced to management that we'd unionized something like 21 22 out of 23 hourly workers were members of the iww we showed up in t-shirts it was a lot yeah incredible when you walk in when you walk in in your iww shirt to sit down at like an all store meeting. And then the next person walks in and they're also wearing that shirt. And then the next person it's like,

yeah, I we've got the numbers. Something's about to happen. Oh, and they knew they do because we'd heard them. I think like not two days before being like, yeah, we think that they're on the precipice of unionizing.

And we were like, boy, you have no idea yeah they took it as well as we expected them to take it um as finn said we had been in a you know organizing meeting the night before and had been in our group chat you know that morning preparing for all manner of different scenarios if they didn't take it well. And then they did. How have they been acting after? Because there definitely can be a huge gap between voluntary recognition and then them actually doing anything.

Yeah. So the structure of management is real interesting at our store. Like I said, we had, um, we have 23 currently, uh, hourly booksellers and then that to how many managers? Six? I think at least eight. Eight? What? yes this is a fun quirk about our store uh the manager to bookseller ratio is insane and then we've got like our directors uh who are not counted in the manager number which is okay so we've got five managers and three directors five managers and three directors. For 23 hourly employees. Five to what?

I think that, yeah. And they do love to use that ratio in meetings. They talk about that a lot. Wait, that's a good thing? Wait, what? No, no. No. No, we talk about it a lot.

Oh, okay. Sorry, I was just like, wait, what? And I think that well it's interesting because in these storm meetings it is usually only the director that talks i don't think we've ever heard managers talk in an all-store meeting so when the director voluntarily recognizes our union we also have to really look at the faces of every manager to see what they're actually feeling. And I think a lot of managers are, have, I,

my suspicion is that a lot of managers share equal frustration, uh, with a lot of the ways that the store is managed even above them. managed even above them and i think obviously they can't say anything to us about uh how they feel about our union but but anecdotally they were so excited to take our picture after we announced that we had unionized that's really funny we did get management to take our photo which we had joked about in the group chat in the morning like lol wouldn't it be hilarious if we made the managers take our picture and then they sure did that's so funny yeah on a day-to-day level i think things have been generally no more or less awkward than usual the vibe can be yeah bizarre on the vibe is also

very highly colored right now by a lot of other big changes that are happening at the stores that have nothing to do with our union and so like it's very difficult to sort of suss out which weirdness is which but definitely i think the union weirdness is on the lesser end actually yeah i mean i think the only real indication we have in the last in this kind of just little stretch since we announced is that we've been um emailing with our director to schedule an announcement from the store side. And we've sent basically a copy that we would like them to use and listed out what venues we would like it posted. And they've been just very accommodating to all of that we haven't been getting any pushback like how the store how or when the store announces to the you know mailing list and the community you know social media following and

so on so you know there's that yeah it hasn't really been talked about that publicly yet it's about to be i do know that um when at the at the event that i was running or working at uh yesterday the unionization we we got congratulated on our unionization and one of my managers was just that was to my manager's face and i think her reaction was like oh so you know they're taking it they're being very polite about it i don't think they know that other people know yet but um yeah if they if they when it happens i'm sure they're not going to be weird about it uh at least i hope not i think the main thing management wants to do everything in writing and i think that's correct in some ways. And like, that's about to happen. But in terms of how they will interact with us once it is

fully public and fully announced and fully in writing, I'm not sure. I also think that the reactions that we're getting now are the ways that they interact with us now that we have announced versus the ways that they may interact with us once we start really pushing for our demands. That could change pretty quickly, especially when it comes to the living wage demand that is very at the forefront of what we're fighting for. very at the forefront of what we're fighting for that's also been the one that has like the most tension behind it uh when we've brought it up in the past and i think that once they realize that we're not just unionizing for uh for fun things might change pretty quickly and so we're just gonna have to be on we'll be on our toes. Because a big reason that we unionized was because we needed to have more

weight behind that demand, because that was one of the core demands that has been made for the longest amount of time with the least amount of movement and the most empty promises. And so we wanted to prove to them, them hey you have to listen to us about this and i think that they might not have fully cottoned on to that yet yeah and i guess we'll just sort of have to see how how they react to the the sort of hammer coming down on them now that they've spent all this time not actually doing anything yeah i, I think that's a pretty good place to wrap up. Unless there's anything else that you want to make sure that gets mentioned?

Yeah, I mean, I think one thing I would like to say towards the end here is that a big part of what's been motivating us through all of this is seeing the sort of rise of labor power nationally with the strikes in L.A., with the writers, the actor strikes, seeing teacher strikes going on with the union stories that you all have been covering on this podcast with folks like Friday. Um, and I just, yeah, I, I just want to say like, if, if for other folks who are working in a small space, in a, in a retail space and thinking about unionizing, I mean, it's hard work, but it's deeply rewarding work. And if you put the time and dedication into it, it is absolutely possible to organize your workplace, especially if you're somewhere with 20, 30 coworkers where incredible moment in labor as a movement and just if you're thinking about organizing your workplace start talking to your co-workers start talking to your friends it's doable it's hard but there's power in a union and we can win. Hell yeah.

I think there's something to be said to just for the like sheer morale boost that comes from organizing, your outlook and ability to manage it and to just feel like someone is in the same boat as you, unparalleled. Really worth it. put a lot of time into like coming to fruition and seeing all of these people that you've worked together with to help make like tangible gains for your community it feels like i think that when you have a job that is when when you're working a job that sometimes makes it difficult to feel proud of yourself and what you're doing on a day-to-day basis for whatever reason having organizing and having your co-workers there to make something really really good not just for each other but for future workers and for workers at other stores who may see our efforts and go i can do that too that makes you that makes me proud and it feels really good to have something to be proud of yeah getting getting to fight for

your class is a great feeling. It rules. Yeah, so I guess, where can people find the union if they want to help support stuff? Gotta pull up our newly minted social media. Nice, nice. I had this ready to go earlier today, and then I forgot to keep it open.

No worries. We'll put the links in the description. These are some fresh, fresh fresh handles here we go yeah so folks can find us uh on instagram at sem co-op booksellers union uh sem c-o-o-p booksellers union or on twitter at sem co-op union which hopefully we will you know start posting on soon uh and that's gonna be the best way to sort of keep up with our store our situation from specifically the perspective of the laborers also if you're in chicago come and say hi, come to our stores, come talk to, uh, our, like come talk to the workers.

Uh, we have a lot to say. We'd love to talk to you about it. Yeah, it's, it's a great place and it's gotten significantly better now that there's now, now that it's unionized and hopefully one day, I don't know, fuck it. I don't know. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll say this. Hopefully one day it is a fucking actual co-op. Hell yeah.

That's the dream. That's all we want. Yeah, so thank you all for coming on, and good luck, and yeah, hope management folds like a fucking wet paper towel. Hell yeah. Thanks so much for having us

thank you so much this was amazing excited to have talked to you all and yeah this has been NakedHappen here you can do this too and yeah we'll have exciting stuff coming tomorrow too yeah go organize your workplace

and make your bosses miserable and make your lives better. Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. You know that rush of endorphins you feel after a great workout? Well, that's when the real magic happens. So if you love hearing real, inspiring stories from the people you know, follow, and admire, join me every week for Post Run High. It's where we take the

conversation beyond the run and get into the heart of it all. It's lighthearted, pretty crazy, and very fun. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jacqueline Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. I'm Jack Peace Thomas, and refuge between the chapters. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Together, we'll dissect classics and contemporary works while uncovering the stories of the brilliant writers behind them. Blacklit is here to amplify the voices of Black writers and to bring their words to life.

Listen to Blacklit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how Tex Elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge

and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough, so join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. Welcome to It Could Happen Here, a podcast about things falling apart, how to put it back together again, made by iHeartMedia. I am your host, Mia Wong. So we have been, you know, this is going to be our first union doubleheader. We have two union episodes in a row.

And part of why we're doing this is that we've been covering a lot of very sort of very fast drives, very low to the ground drives in small shops recently. And today we are going to be covering a shop that is not like that it is very large it is quite geographically diverse and it has been organizing for a very long time and that union is the iheart podcast union and with me to talk about this is tracy wilson from stuff you miss in history class and Gnomes Griffin, who is a producer on many staggeringly too many shows. And yeah, they are they are both on the bargaining committee of the podcast union. So, yeah, Tracy Gnomes, welcome to the show. Oh, thank you. We're glad to be here.

Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited to talk to you too. So, all right. First thing about this iHeart Podcast Union, we haven't covered many media unions on this podcast. We probably should do more, but it's been a sort of product of what kind, I don't know.

There are certain kinds of stuff that we've been focusing on, but now we're doing media unions. So the place i wanted to start talking about the iheart podcast union is the sort of scale of it i mean there's people everywhere like there are there are there are people who are where there's one union member in the entire city so you know can we and it's also been going on for a very very very long time. So I wanted to sort of ask, can you talk about how this whole process started and kind of how long it's been going on? So long, so long. I was scrolling through my phone today trying to remember when when was the first time that I was contacted about unionizing?

that I was contacted about unionizing because the first thing that happened for me was being organized into the union before I heart recognized us. And that was in the fall of 2020. The fall of 2020, I got a text from my friend Lauren that was like, can I talk to you about a kind of a work thing? It's a kind of work. And I said, sure. And the question that Lauren had to ask me was, some of us are talking about unionizing. How would you feel about that? And I said, okay, I need to check my agreement that I already have with iHeart because a lot of us at iHeart have individual agreements with the company. I have worked in the job that I have now in some capacity for almost 19 years. So I've been here forever and I already had this. I was like, I need to find out, does this agreement prohibit me from doing this? It did not. And so I said, all right, if I'm eligible to be in the union, I'm on board. If I'm not eligible to be in the union, you have my full support. And that was in like November of 2020, which is eons ago at this point. Yeah. It's been, I came on to the company

and the union was already in negotiations. Like it had been a union already. I started in January of 2023 and I came like straight into the, we're in bargaining sessions process. Yeah. So the organizing process took definitely more than a year. And that was more than a year of people talking to all of their colleagues about whether they wanted to form a union, what would be the benefits of forming a union, all of that stuff.

And so we have three main offices at iHeart there's New York LA and Atlanta so there were people who were doing things on the ground with people locally to them but then also I think it's something like a third of our unit is not actually local to one of these offices I'm not local to an office I live north of Boston we have like three unit members in the entire Commonwealth of Massachusetts. So this is like a really long process of getting everybody on board and getting everybody to commit to saying

they wanted to be in the union and then eventually to sign union cards. After all of that, that took more than a year, we informed management of our intent to unionize in December of 2021. And they recognized us about six weeks later in February of 2022. That took longer than we would have wanted. There was some back and forth about exactly what roles would be included in the union.

And then also the winter holidays happened in the middle of that, which is like those weeks don't exist for business purposes in a lot of ways. We still got to do podcasts for them, but nobody's at work. And so, you know, we were recognized without having to go through an election with the NLRB, which was great, but it did sort of feel like it took a little bit to finally get the recognition. And then we started bargaining in May. So a couple of months after that, and that was two years ago that we started bargaining. Oh my God. Yeah. It's May now. It is May now. It is almost June today. Yeah. Yeah. It has been a really quite long bargaining process, which I think, I mean, this is something

we've talked about on the show before that this is a pretty, this is a thing that happens a lot for, especially for first contracts is that companies will try to sort of just wait the union out and try to, because, you know, the, if you look at like the places where unions fail, it's, they either fail in sort of like they, okay, there's, there's, there's the failures where like nothing ever gets started. Okay, there's the failures where nothing ever gets started. There's the failures where they lose an election or they don't have enough people to sign cards. And then the third place that they fail is the first contract. And so this is a situation that I guess is not unexpected, but is also... Negotiating a contract for two years just is not very fun yeah no it's not our colleagues at wga when we got ready to start bargaining tried to prepare us for the fact that

18 months to two years is fairly normal in the world of media to bargain a first contract. I will readily acknowledge that I was overly optimistic when we started. I would not go so far as to say naive, but like I thought it was a really good sign that the company had voluntarily recognized us. I thought it was a really good sign that WGAE had successfully negotiated other contracts and that we were sort of drawing from a lot of that contract language as our starting point. And I feel like when you have all of the unionized podcast shops having similar language, to me, that language is now becoming industry standard. So I expected less of a fight over a lot of that than what we actually got. And then also management hired an attorney that has over a lot of that than what we actually got. And then also management

hired an attorney that has negotiated a lot of other contracts with WGAE. It was just all stuff that I thought seemed favorable. And then when we actually got into the bargaining process, it has gone on for so long. And there have been so many things that it has felt like we're just going around in circles at the table. Yeah. So before we get into kind of what issues are being circled around and what management has been doing, I wanted to talk about what bargaining a contract is actually like, because I think most of the people listening to this have never done it and only kind of have a vague idea of what that means. So can you sort of walk us through the, I don't know. So there's a week that has a bargaining session. Can you walk through the process of what goes into that? Yeah, definitely. So in a week where we might have a bargaining session, say we have a bargaining session on Wednesday and Thursday, as a committee, we'll meet probably the Monday, the Tuesday to prepare whatever our counter

proposals will be. So whether or not that's on economics, so we're getting back and we're adjusting our salary proposals that are going to go across the table, or we're adjusting what we're asking for in severance, how many weeks of severance we're asking for. So we'll spend some time as a committee going through those proposals and basing our decisions off of like, this is where we have an intention of landing. This is where management is right now. This is what in our conversations with the other unit members we've figured out is most important to people. So we'll make counters based on that. to people. So we'll make counters based on that. Lately, those sessions have looked like preparing to who in the committee is going to be presenting that contract language across the table. So we'll divvy up those presentations and Tracy might present on diversity. I might present about the

salary minimums. We might have another committee member present on severance and things like that. salary minimums, we might have another committee member present on severance and things like that. So we'll sort out who is going to say what, and we'll also plan out any other sort of editorializing that we're going to do across the table. Like this is why we're making a move here because it's important to our unit for this reason. We've also planned out actions that we're going to do across the table and having unit members read testimonials about certain contract items so those are all of the things that we might prepare for ahead of the bargaining session and then on the actual day of bargaining session we'll go in and we'll meet as a committee in the morning. We're either presenting first our

proposals or management is presenting to us. We, as a bargaining committee, will be there to hear the proposals. There may be some sessions that are more important than others. So we'll invite the whole unit to hear those proposals. And we will, over those two days, sort of go back and forth presenting across the table what our proposals are and the counter proposals. And with the idea of like getting closer to a contract that is fair, and like Tracy said earlier, industry standard. That sums it up. Yeah. And I guess this leads us to the second part of contract negotiations, which is management's counter proposals. So, you know, something I think is kind of surprising when you do this for the first time is the extent to which management simply will not show up on time.

Yeah. Yeah. So how has it actually been sitting across the table from management and, you know hearing their kind of proposals and dealing with whenever they show up um i all of my bargaining so far has been happening on the other side of a zoom or a team's screen since i'm remote to everybody else, which is a blessing and a curse, right? I have kind of a buffer. I'm not having to directly look at the faces of the people who are coming in with salary proposals that are dramatically less than what we proposed and what we feel is industry standard at

this point. But it also means that I'm by myself. I don't have somebody near me to when like management leaves the room personally react with. We kind of go around the circle in the whoever's in the room and on the screen to sort of say our reactions. But like it's lonely sometimes to do it from afar. It's lonely sometimes to do it from afar. I do definitely have to practice keeping my expression neutral because sometimes what we are hearing is not neutral expression territory. And I also really was not totally prepared to hear management justify their positions on things. Like, I will feel strongly that the correct and most ethical thing to do is a particular thing. And then management will explain their position on something. And I'll sort of be like, that's not the decision I would like you to be making at all.

And I'm a little upset that I just heard you say that just now. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm in Atlanta. So most just heard you say that just now. Yeah, yeah. And I'm in Atlanta. So most of our bargaining sessions have happened in Atlanta. We also have them in New York or LA. So I have been in person for most of the sitting down across from management and waiting a few hours after when they said they would be ready to present their proposals. after when they said they would be ready to present their proposals. And it is like tense and frustrating to sit in that. And to Tracy's point, like it is nice that we have the rest of the committee with us to, or whoever's in Atlanta with us to sort of share in that together. But the

energy does get really tense at times, especially in those situations where we've presented, hey, we would like however many days of bereavement leave so we can grieve our family members. And then management comes back with an offer that's like, well, what about just a couple of days to grieve your dead family member? And so in those situations where it's like, do you think of me as a fellow human being deserving of these like very basic things to make my life livable? And then their answer sort of feels like a no, and you kind of just have to like sit in that in person while they say it to your face. Yeah. And I mean mean especially when it's something that personal or it's that or if it's something like parental leave where you know it is this is your child right and yeah

you're sitting across the table from someone being like oh yeah no you actually you should get like two days to deal with this. It's just really brutal. We had, it was a few months ago, we had a session where we had a lot of testimonials that were accompanying our actual contract proposals. And some of them were read by the person who had written the testimonial and some of them were read

by a different bargaining committee member because somebody was just more comfortable remaining anonymous and having somebody do that for them. And we had testimonials that were all over the map in terms of things that we were still in the process of bargaining. So we had diversity testimonials. We had testimonials about parental leave, all of this stuff. And one of the things that wound up being just enormously frustrating was that it felt like we went through all that and we presented so many things about why this matters so much to all of us. And the next round of counter proposals that we got were like the same

negligible movements as from before we had all read all of the testimonials. And that was not my favorite day of bargaining by far no yeah that one was not not fun to be in on and we are back so i mean we've talked a little bit about kind of bereavement stuff. And, you know, we've talked a little bit about some of the issues that have been stuck in negotiations for two years. But, yeah, I wanted to sort of see, you know, talk about sort of the specifics of where the contract negotiations are right now and how far apart the company and the union is. And also just, and this is something that I think has been a theme of these negotiations,

is the extent to which management is below industry standard. So yeah, I guess we could start with sort of wages there because that's one of the places where they're very much below standard. So yeah, I guess we could start with sort of wages there because that's one of the places where they're very much below standard. Yeah. I think we only have a TA on one, a TA being a tentative agreement on one title and only for the rate that they're proposing in New York City and LA. Another big thing with our minimums is that they're different for producers and other titles living in New York City and LA than they are for people in those roles in other cities. So yeah, we are very far apart still on our salary minimums.

Yeah, when we put together our proposals on salary minimums, like we didn't make them up out of nowhere. We did a lot of research on pay rates at other unionized podcast shops and other podcast businesses. We came up with numbers that felt fair and industry standard based on all of that research. And then management just came in so much lower than all that. And then as Gnomes just said, there's this differential they're proposing between New York and L.A. and everywhere else. Most of our unit is not in New York or L.A. A big chunk of the unit is in Atlanta specifically. And the cost of living in Atlanta is just not that much lower than New York or L.A. at this point.

We've also been way apart on annual increases. Originally, management was proposing not to have annual increases in the contract at all. And they've moved past that. But the current proposals are still way, way less than the rate of inflation. I mean, it's about half of what inflation is. Yeah. It's not even inflation amount and i will say that like for many of the job titles they're so far below what industry standard is with the like

very little incremental movement that they make every bargaining session it's like clear that they the company doesn't have any interest in getting to industry standard despite the fact that it is like a large and well-ranked podcasting company yeah yeah we just got the webby award as podcast company of the year and we continue to be like when rankings come out of the biggest podcast networks, like we're always at or right near the top of the rankings, all of that. We have a lot of shows that are really well respected in, you know, whatever subject matter they are discussing, whatever broadly speaking genre of podcasts. And so it sucks to then look at pay scales that just don't line up with that in terms of like the minimum of what the company will commit to offering people.

Yeah. And I think the percent increase thing is really frustrating too, because again the way this works out with inflation and remember that so you know we started bargaining in 2022 right inflation in 2022 was like three like twice what it is now um and if if you're getting if you're not and this is something i think that's important for everyone to understand is that if you're not getting so for inflation right now is about 3.4 if you're not getting a 3.4 pay increase this year that means you you like you are taking a pay cut every single year right and the fact that you know this is this is what like

management's proposal is you take a pay cut every single year and you're supposed to be fine with this is incredibly frustrating and i don't i don't think it's it's it's it's not really understood in in terms of you literally taking a pay cut very much it's it's just talked of like it's it's it's something that's talked about as just like another benefit but like no we're trying not to take a pay cut. Yeah. I would like to, if my salary is going to not take me any further, at least not take me any farther back. I don't

need to lose money every year like I've done this year and starting my second year at the company. Right. There have been a lot of people who have not had a raise since like before the pandemic started. And like, I'm incredibly lucky. I have been at my job forever. I'm on one of the biggest shows that we have in the network. Like I'm, I'm doing okay. Right. But my call, a lot of

my colleagues who work on shows that don't have as much power, don't have as big of an audience, like don't have as much of an ad budget. People who have been with the company less time, people who are like earlier on in their careers, especially like I've watched these folks go through the last four years with no increase in their pay. And like, I can see people struggling now financially in a way that they weren't struggling financially in 2019 because their pay has not changed at all. But the, how much it costs to exist in the world is so much more expensive. Yeah.

is so much more expensive. Yeah. We have some members right now who like would receive a pay increase with what's being proposed currently, but it is nowhere near the majority. Most people are going to lose money with the numbers as they are right now. Yeah, and that's one of the things that just,

you know, I mean, even the sort of industry standard in podcasting isn't great, but that's one of these things that's, you know, very much below industry standard. And there's been another one of these things that i wanted to talk about that's kind of baffling that i i think everyone involved thought that this this would be something that there wouldn't be a huge fight over but that's at will employment you talk about that yeah yeah. Yeah. We'd love to. So just cause employment means your employer has to have just cause to terminate your employment. Your employer cannot just do it willy nilly.

And it's a core part of like the rights that unions bargain for is to have a process for somebody to be disciplined and lose their job it's a very basic thing basic union protection and the management has has held firm that they basically want to not only have at will employment standards but like enshrine that in the contract yeah meaning that they want to be able to fire us for any reason at any time, regardless of whether or not we've done something actually warrant that loss of our income. about it this way, but both for if you're doing work that's politically sensitive or also if you are marginalized, having your boss not be able to fire you for literally any reason, it's a necessary piece of protection. And if you don't have that, you can have a situation where, I don't know, you have one boss who's racist and one boss who's transphobic, and you and everyone like you's careers are just gone and without that kind of protection you know it's

it's incredibly it's incredibly dangerous for like for marginalized people to you know i mean even just like to be able to speak up about things that are happening to you right like yes like tech technically speaking retaliation is illegal however comma uh see see the entire history of of labor in america and tell me whether it tell tell explain to me whether or not it still actually happens especially when you can just fire someone for some other reason or again in this case you can fire them for no reason. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a thing that is so baffling because there's no union contract without just cause. Like there's a number of reasons why people unionize. Obviously, we want better salaries.

Obviously, we want better health care. But you don't form a union and then still allow a contract that says, yeah. And also, though, we can fire you at any reason, because that is sort of the antithesis of like what we're about here, which is that there's like due process and structures in place that like people who provide the labor for this company can't just like. who provide the labor for this company can't just like at a moment's notice be out of health care and income and all of that comes with that yeah i mean politically like it's it and you know if you look at this as a political system it's the difference between pure dictatorial rule where everything is just done purely by fiat right where you know like the person who rules you can do whatever they want to you and there being something like a functional legal process which constrains the power of of rulers to just sort of enact their will on you and that's you know an incredibly

fundamental basic part of what a union is is is the democratization of the workplace yeah yeah that's um that's one of the things that I think is so important about just the right to unionize in general that I think a lot of people who have never been part of a union don't fully understand. I'm basing some of this based on comments I continually see on REI ads, which I am served all the time as a person who hikes a lot because uh currently their comments on their ads are a whole lot of people saying stop union busting rei and then there are always people who are like it's retail if you don't like it get a better job or they're saying something like rei has always voted one of the greatest employers like you should just be thankful for what you have and i'm like the thing is though an employer has so much more power than an individual employee. Your employer has a whole HR structure and lawyers and way more money than any individual

person working for them. And that's why employees have the right to come together collectively to just balance that out a little bit. Like a union is still going to have a power differential between themselves and the company we have a whole lot more equity and a whole lot more access to that power together than as one individual person going to their manager asking nicely to have a couple extra days off because their parent died or whatever. Yeah. As the old, as the, as the old song goes, what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one,

but the union makes us strong. Yeah. I think, I think that's a good sort of place to end on. Yeah. Negotiations are still ongoing. Fly to Atlanta next week to be there in person. Next week already.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a little scary i don't know what to wear to an office anymore oh see and me either i actually just show up how i am always in my normal life so i encourage you to do the same uh can i get a union shirt from you when i get there oh please they're literally clogging my home and I would love to give you one. So I have one. All right. So where can people go to find the union and to support us? We are on Twitter at I heart pod union. We're on Instagram also at iheartpodunion.

Yeah, that's where you can find us on social media. We're on bluesky at iheartpodcastunion. I have the keys to that one right now and I have not been really active with it. I'm sorry. Yeah, we've many

an update goes out on the Twitter so you can stay in touch there. Yeah. And in, in the, in the meantime, between now and bargaining,

this has been, it could happen here. Thank you two so much for coming on and yeah, let's, let's get, let's, let's, let's get ourselves a good contract.

Yeah. Yeah. We are going to get a good contract. And it is such a pleasure to work with the both of you. Oh yes. You too. Thank you so much, Mia, for having us on. Yeah, for sure. get a good contract um and it is such a pleasure to work with the both of you oh yes you too thank you so much mia for having us on yeah for sure always happy to all right and this is also your daily union episode reminder that you too can do this you too can spend an enormous amount of time going through a spreadsheet and then finally turn it, unionization is the process of turning a spreadsheet into a fighting organization.

You too can get lost in a sea of Google Docs. But I promise you all, as much as this episode has been about, you know, the sort of stubbornness of management and how, you know, and how kind of demoralizing that process can be, it is worth it. I promise you all it is. And you can do it too. Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media.

For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series,

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