It Could Happen Here - It Could Happen Here Weekly 228

Starting point is 00:00:00 This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I vowed I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say that trust your girlfriends.

Starting point is 00:00:24 Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. you get your podcast. I got you. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct?

Starting point is 00:00:47 I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Gillespie and Michael Mancini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is love trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police.

Starting point is 00:01:04 As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. That's shots fired in City Hall building. How could this have happened in City Hall? Somebody tell me that. A shocking public murder. This was one of the most dramatic events that really ever happened in New York City politics. I scream, get down, get down.

Starting point is 00:01:32 Those are shots. A tragedy that's now forgotten and a mystery that may or may not have been political. That may have been about sex. Listen to Rorschach, murder at City Hall, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Lori Siegel, and this is mostly human, a tech podcast through a human lens. This week, an interview with OpenAI CEO, Sam Altman. I think society is going to decide that creators of AI products bear a tremendous amount of responsibility to the products we put out in the world. an in-depth conversation with a man who's shaping our future.

Starting point is 00:02:09 My highest order bit is to not destroy the world with AI. Listen to mostly human on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Oh, Media. Hey, everybody. Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's going to be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions. Welcome to Aka Daff and Hear a podcast about things falling apart and how to put them back together again. I am your host, Mia Wong.

Starting point is 00:02:56 And today we are going to be talking about, frankly, the largest and most draconian trans health care band in the country. And the unexpected place that, well, I don't know if unexpected is the right word, but the ignored place that it's, It's come from, and with me with me to talk about this ban is David Forbes, who is an editor and a journalist with the Trans News Network. David, welcome to the show. Always good to be here. I, once again, back to my, I wish I could have people on the show to talk about, like, cool and normal things. But, you know, we get that sometimes. This is not one of those stories.

Starting point is 00:03:35 I mean, we're trans journalists in a dying empire. Yeah. Like, let's, let's, yeah. So speaking of bad things happening in dying empires, do you want to take us sort of to the start of this healthcare ban and what we're even talking about here? Sure. Because it's not a government health care ban in the way that I think people expect. No. And that's actually really important to all this story because a lot of the attention in health care bans has been on governments. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:04:08 And occasionally hospitals, like secular hospital systems, refusing to provide care because they're scared of the federal government. So it's been a, but we're trying to be a fight over stuff happening in legislatures. And to be clear, that stuff is absolutely important. Yeah, yeah. However, this ban wasn't put in place by a legislature. It's not any institution that people have even the facade of an ability to really influence. on November 12th, 2025, a complete and total trans-health care ban, medications as well as surgeries, adults as well as youth, was put in place throughout every health care system

Starting point is 00:04:47 run by the Catholic Church in the U.S. Yeah, and that has not really, like, I don't know, like, I've talked about it. Like, we've mentioned it on the show before. I don't know if I've really seen any other. like systemic large-scale coverage of it. I mean, there were like a couple of articles when it came out. But other than TNN, like, this has been almost completely ignored, even though it is more draconian than any, any healthcare ban that has gone into effect anywhere in the country. It is a, again, as you said, this is a total health care ban for children and adults. Yes. And for all types

Starting point is 00:05:29 of trans health care. Yeah, for everything. Yeah. And that's the thing. So I've honestly been a little surprised by that, even old and cynical as I am. But TNN, as far as I know, is one of the only outlets, including a queer and trans media. I won't say the only, but one of the only, that has done ongoing coverage on this, let alone in-depth, extensive, what are the roots of this? How did we get here? Yeah. Kind of coverage. I've done two articles on it, and those were in December.

Starting point is 00:06:00 So a few weeks after it passed, we kind of went in detail on what it meant and the employees. of which were and have proven to be pretty horrifying. And also the Catholic Church is pretty horrific history as an institution. While individual Catholics have a, as we'll get to, have a wide range of beliefs, including on trans rights, the institution itself has always been highly abusive, highly reactionary and incredibly opposed to our very existence. And that just hasn't changed. It's actually escalating. And then we did one just last week that was on the actual impact. Like we talk to trans people around the country who've encountered the impact of the bishop's ban, as I've heard a few folks call it, and I've called it a few times myself,

Starting point is 00:06:41 and what it means for their lives in the ground. So I guess there's two points we should hit immediately. One is sort of how this happened and like how this band sort of came together and was voted on by like who. And the second one is how many people this affects? Because I think this is the part that's really been ignored, which is that, like, Catholic hospitals, it's not like they're running like 10 of these. I mean, it would be bad if they were running 10 of these, but this is a significant part of the entire U.S. healthcare system. Yes, a massive part of it. Yeah. So I think that that's very important to kind of touch on. So this was passed in November at the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, which they, you know, have regular meetings and decide

Starting point is 00:07:22 policies and stuff. And it's one of the things, and this is going to be a recurring theme in this, is the degree to which I think, even people think of themselves as progressives, being fairly left, have kind of bought hook, line and sinker, some of the propaganda, and it is overwhelmingly propaganda coming out of the Catholic Church since the mid-2010s when Pope Francis got in. So you were seeing from this conference the big news in a lot of progressive circles was, oh, well, they made this statement against the Trump administration immigration. Yeah. But here's a thing.

Starting point is 00:07:51 That was a statement. Mm-hmm. Certainly it's, you know, better than if they supported ICE, but it was a, symbolic step largely. Yeah, like they didn't even do like the very baseline thing, which would be like excommunicating JD Vance, a thing they could do and didn't because they're fucking cowards. Yeah. But they didn't even do that.

Starting point is 00:08:08 Yes, and we're going to get back to that. It's often worse than cowards. Yeah. So at this conference, that got most of the headlines, but they also passed this very draconian anti-trans health care ban. Yeah. It passed overwhelmingly. This was not like some narrow victory by the conservative faction.

Starting point is 00:08:22 No, it was almost everyone. It passed 206 to 7. Yeah. Jesus Christ. It's your Stigley. It was interesting listening to some of the proceedings of this, which may not be great for mental health, but was quite informative. Yeah. And one of the, one of the bishops involved, Robert Barron, cited Pope Francis, who was held out, even sadly by some queer media as being this, you know, step forward for queer and trans rights,

Starting point is 00:08:46 which I think was completely a farce, held out his rampant transphobia, which he was always very clear about, and quoted him saying that, viewed the existence of trans people. They used the far right term gender ideology as, and I quote, repugnant to the Bible and to our tradition. You could not ask for a more clear statement of hatred and extermination against trans people. Yeah. I mean, that's it.

Starting point is 00:09:11 This is not an institution that, you know, is slowly but surely getting better. This institution that outside of the PR is getting worse. Yeah, is digging in on doing really very reactionary harm. And so the effects of that were pretty devastating. and immediate. I mean, we'll get into some folks who dealt with stuff later that same month due to the span in a little bit. But like, the Catholic Church's health care networks are massive. By some estimates, one in six, one in seven of all people in the U.S. go through a Catholic health care system at some point in a given year. It doesn't just include a few hospitals and includes an incredibly sprawling network of clinics and specialists and doctors practices. Plenty of them are not outwardly Catholic even. So people may be going to a practice owner of the Catholic Church and not even be aware of it. It's also expanding. It's taking over and buying out previously secular practices. And this is a multifaceted problem. It goes along with cuts in federal aid. It goes along with the general like capitalist fervor

Starting point is 00:10:13 that kind of grips secular health care as well. So if they cut services, the Catholic Church often buys them up and expands. So it affects everyone in that. Everyone who deals with that. And the Catholic Church has never been pro-trans remotely. But previously, prior to this ban, there was kind of a hodgepodge and some local ambiguities. And there were cases that we'll get into some of them a second where local pro-trans Catholics or folks working at those networks could and did provide pretty substantial trans care through like one ambiguity or loophole or another. That just ended. All of it. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:10:48 So throughout that entire network in some states, and ones you wouldn't necessarily think, including, you know, ones like or. Oregon of Washington that are ostensibly supposed to have like pretty strict trans health care protections. Catholic hospitals comprise like over a third of hospital beds and I think Washington is over 40%. So we're talking about, of health care beds, we're talking about a substantial part of the American health care system. Four and ten of the largest healthcare networks are Catholic. That's how extensive this was. And now trans health care is banned in all of them. Absolutely. Yeah, and that's something that has an absolutely massive rolling impact, right? Because again, it's not just that it's like outwardly Catholic hospitals and something I think you're going to talk about more later,

Starting point is 00:11:38 but it's also like it's people who have health care plans through like something that's affiliated with the church. There are all of these ways in which, you know, suddenly just enormous numbers of people had their health care taken away effectively overnight. because the primary way that anti-trans health care repression has been understood has been for the state level. And I understand why it's like that because a lot of it has been coming from the state, both on, this is where you get into confusing American terminology, but both in terms of the federal government and the state level governments, right? Like, people have been a huge focus on that. But the distribution of the Catholic health care system is cutting through the lines of what people sort of had previously assumed. to be safe. Yes. And this is something that is a threat to trans people effectively everywhere.

Starting point is 00:12:30 And it's compounding, as you're talking about earlier, with the sort of crisis of affordability and coverage, because a lot of these healthcare clinics and hospitals and practices are the ones that are actually covered by insurance. Yes. And you can, you get a situation to relate, they're secular ones, but you can't go to them because they're not covered by your fucking insurance, so they're unbelievably expensive. And this gets to a reality that goes through a lot of our coverage which is that trans people are an overwhelmingly working class demographic. Yeah. I don't think that gets said enough.

Starting point is 00:13:02 It doesn't get picked, even in some queer and trans media. But that is incredibly important here. I began the second story with an interview that we published with an interview with Beth, who's a trans woman in the Midwest, and found it nearly impossible to find health care outside of their networks. Because like a lot of trans people, Beth has an ACA. plan. And because the secular networks are a little more expensive, some cases a lot more expensive, the ACA plans that are available to most trans people, you know, that they can remotely afford,

Starting point is 00:13:34 don't cover health care there. So you kind of have to, and then they don't provide your health care at all. Yeah. And in that case, this was someone, she'd been going across state borders, which she noticed kind of wild to get health care anyway, to go to Planned Parenthood, finally thought that she had found a practice closer to home, went there before the bishops ban, like right before it hit. They seemed very welcoming. She knew other trans people that had gotten a care

Starting point is 00:13:59 there before. And everything seemed great. Goes back after the ban. And it's like, oh, I'm sorry, we can't help you. And this wasn't a practice that was obviously Catholic. It, you know,

Starting point is 00:14:08 did no giant cruise fixes or anything hanging on it. Yeah. It was just one that was in, oh, it's a doctor's office, some other trans people have gotten care there. It beats driving

Starting point is 00:14:17 at least an hour each way, if not more. Yeah. Again, you know, when you're working glass, a two-hour round trip commute is a lot. That's, you know, especially with gas being up more.

Starting point is 00:14:28 Like, that's a lot of money. And it's strained things even further. And so she had to go back to traveling across state. But, you know, I think some folks assume, and she points out like, oh, you just go to another provider, you often can't. There's not that option. Yeah. There isn't one. Even in some fairly major cities, there is not that option unless you have a lot more money or health care through a fairly well-heeled employer.

Starting point is 00:14:51 And a lot of us don't. You know, this is another. one of the problems here, which is that trans people are overwhelmingly working class. It is one of the worst demographics, a poverty rate of any, of like any demographic group in the U.S. Yes. The unemployment levels are, like, like this was like 23, back when the economy was like working, was like 1936 Great Depression levels. Yes.

Starting point is 00:15:13 Incarceration rates, education rates, it's all among the poorest of the poor. Yeah. Yeah. It's all apocalyptically bad. Yeah. Then there was the issue, and this is, is an issue that we've covered on this show from other lenses, which is that, like, yeah, like, we're dealing with these, like, large-scale waves of hospital closures.

Starting point is 00:15:42 Yeah. And the less hospitals that exist in an area, and particularly in the sort of working-class areas where these people are living, right, the more of those hospitals close, because those are the ones that are closing because they're losing a whole bunch of funding from the government. Yeah. And, you know, there's, like, there's a series of other economic pressures there. The more of those options disappear, the more reliant people are on on these kinds of Catholic hospitals, which have just implemented an adult health care ban.

Starting point is 00:16:07 Yeah. Like, the Republicans in Congress aren't pushing that right now. No. Like, I cannot emphasize how unbelievably draconian and reactionary this is. Yes. Well, and also, they're doing it at the same time that you have major progressive media figures, legislators, praising the current Pope for uttering some words about universal health care. They don't practice universal health care.

Starting point is 00:16:34 No, they don't. Not just with trans people, but definitely not with trans people. It's like they have the money too. Like they could. Yeah. And they don't. Like, There's a story in investigating this that really stood out to me. And it was from a pharmacy intern, basically, somebody who's studying to be a pharmacist and did a, you know, a stint, a training stint in a Catholic hospital right before the bishop's ban hit and said that they were doing at least one gender affirming procedure a week. Jesus Christ. A week.

Starting point is 00:17:06 And that actually, you know, this was someone who had dealt with the institution before and had had not got great experiences. And was actually heading into this, you know, kind of this 12-week extent, expecting to have to deal with, you know, the problems of being a trans person with a religious institution. And I actually said, no, that this particular hospital, the folks who work, they were super pro-trans, super accepting. They were actively providing trans care and mentioned even because it was a moral area. And that's that stat alone that it was, you know, a gender affirming care procedure most weeks should be a reminder that a lot of trans people also don't live in major cities.

Starting point is 00:17:38 Yeah. They live in smaller cities. They live in small towns, rural areas even. By a mile, actually, the region of the U.S. with the largest trans population is the South. Yeah. And the Midwest is very closely tied with the West, which includes the West's coast for second. So they mentioned that there's this was a sense of the staff like, look, if you're in L.A., okay. hey, there's a bunch of Catholic hospitals,

Starting point is 00:18:01 a bunch of other ones, too. So the people seeking out Catholic hospitals may be a bit more conservative. There are more likely to be other alternatives. Now, so healthcare access may a problem there too. But in war area, the kind of staff had a sense, look if we don't do it, no one else will. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:18:17 And so they didn't be pretty pro-trains. The loophole they used, the ambiguity, I guess, the very sure they used, was if an insurer, secular or otherwise, said, hey, this procedure is necessary. They didn't question it. And under the previous, pre-bishop band situation, there was kind of that, a bit of that leeway.

Starting point is 00:18:34 Yeah. This is an example of, you know, some of them Catholic, pro-trans folks in a rural area, actually doing some real good. And then because they kind of maneuvered in this gray area, and this band just completely ended that. Yeah. They also described because they actually had top surgery scheduled at this same hospital, and the ban hit. And they're very thankful to the doctor who did, you know, surgeries at that hospital,

Starting point is 00:18:58 who intentionally just kind of kept them on the schedule. Incredible. Incredible. Yeah, but like we need way more of that, but also it just got a lot more difficult and a lot more hurdles where we're placed in the way of that. So like what was happening just got cut off. Yeah. And this is also a really, a really significant issue because trans health care is already, even before this, you know, like the wait list for things like top surgery, things like bottom surgery, or sometimes years long, even in places that have like, quote, unquote, like good health care, right? Like even in places like Oregon. or like, you know, in places like LA,

Starting point is 00:19:32 like you're dealing with multi-year wait list to get these procedures. And suddenly, like a seventh of all the people doing this are just gone. And that just contributes, even if you can get... And some places half. Yeah, yeah. And the number of people who do these procedures

Starting point is 00:19:48 is so small that if you are looking to get these procedures, like, you can talk to the trans people in your area and they will know every single doctor who does it. Yeah. Right, because there's like three, maybe. if you're lucky, there's like three. Usually there's like one. Like even on the HRT front, sometimes,

Starting point is 00:20:05 you know, and I can speak from experience on this, you know, it's often kind of an icebreaker of like, oh, you know, which medical practice is giving you your HRT end down? Because there's like two, maybe three if you're lucky. Yep. And that's maybe for a whole region. Yeah. And, you know, a lot of transom,

Starting point is 00:20:23 maybe even most live outside of what you think of the few, you know, major metropoli. But also there was a, wow, was looking into this, there was a case in 2017, before the bishop's ban, where a Catholic Hospital in California, which on paper at least has fairly strong trans health care protections for the U.S., where a priest with no medical experience comes in last minute vetoes the top surgery for a trans man. Jesus Christ. And they kick him out on the streets still on the drugs, the pre-surgery drugs. What the fuck? Jesus Christ. He sued them, rightly.

Starting point is 00:20:57 Yeah. But like, you know, this is a hospital in New York, California. We go into it a little bit in the story. So, like, that was happening before, but that's not everywhere. Yeah. And the few cases like the hospital that we mentioned, where there were folks working around that to still provide some health care, that's probably gone now. I would say it's almost certainly gone unless folks are really just breaking the rules,

Starting point is 00:21:19 which they should. Yeah. You know? But this is sort of the systemic problem with having the church hierarchy, having control over these healthcare institutions, which is that even if you are just like in the institution trying to do good and you believe in the right thing and you're trying to do the right thing,

Starting point is 00:21:36 it doesn't matter because suddenly just the hammer can come down on you from above. Even if you keep doing it, right, there's always just the risk that like they're just going to fire you all. At best it is highly precarious. Yeah. And it's this really kind of

Starting point is 00:21:53 I don't know, this kind of like brutal demonstration of the reality that in a hierarchical institution, it kind of doesn't matter what the people on the bottom believe because at the stroke of a pen, 200 reactionaries who run your fucking institution can just come in and be like, no, fuck you, none of you get health care? Yeah. Well, and not just that, but run a substantial amount of the entire American healthcare system. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and this is actually why, and this is a larger factor, I have survived the literal fundamentalist Christian violence when I. when I was younger. And I think this is actually something

Starting point is 00:22:28 which we'll probably get into a little bit. Like, I've never gotten the aversion, especially from queer and trans organizations to criticize their religious institutions. It didn't always used to be this way, but it's definitely been in this way,

Starting point is 00:22:40 including on this issue. Because, you know, you will look in vain for a major national organization that's like taking the Catholic Church to task over this. Yeah. Once with millions of dollars of budgets,

Starting point is 00:22:52 you know, apparently they're higher ups. They're too busy, you know, taking first-class flights and raking in nearly a million dollars a year while trans people can't find jobs, you know, but like, so I've never gotten the aversion because for a lot of us on their ground, for a lot of us who are among the, the many, many, many, trans people that are working class that live outside, some of the, like, you know, a handful metropolis that we

Starting point is 00:23:16 often get depicted as exclusively living in. Fundamentalist violence, you know, to be, and to be clear, from plenty of like Protestant evangelicals as well. Yeah. Never stopped. It never stopped being a very serious and real threat. Their numbers have gone down since the 90s, you know, in the early 2000s. Yeah. But it's never stopped being something you really have to have to account for, whether it's

Starting point is 00:23:38 institutional, even if it's totally illegal, they'll still do it like they did in California or literal like street violence, literally like people attacking you with weapons. So I think that's definitely a factor in all this. I think it's a sad factor in why folks haven't heard about it. Yeah. And, you know, in some of the stuff I've talked about before on the show and elsewhere, I've mentioned that I think that whatever in the intent behind it, the gay ink, as it were, the structure of, you know, these larger nonprofits, which you can send down to like

Starting point is 00:24:08 the local and state level at some point, that kind of and the culture from them that kind of is more status quo and more so much just kind of dictates a lot of like official, at least queer and trans politics. Yeah. has been a disastrous failure. And I think that's even, you know, even more apparent here. This is, again, the largest most circonian trans health care in the U.S. It's already happened.

Starting point is 00:24:30 It's already in place. And you will look in vain for any organizing from these institutions they're supposed to protect trains rights against it. Yeah. There aren't, like, big lawsuits being filed. There's not, like, you know, expizase being run. They have far more resources than our, you know, worker-run newsroom. We do a lot with what we have.

Starting point is 00:24:46 We encourage people to support us. But, like, they have a lot more resources to, make those things a large national issue. They have chosen not to. And a lot of people are going to suffer for that, are suffering for that. Yeah. And I should mention, too, on an actual policy level, like, a full-scale health care ban on adult trans health care is, like, hideously unpopular.

Starting point is 00:25:05 Like, there's a reason the Republicans haven't done it. Yeah. Right? Because it's not popular. So this is, like, this is a winning issue. Yes. Right? And they won't fucking take up the fight because.

Starting point is 00:25:18 They're too busy glazing the papacy. Not just them. I mean, progressives in general are lately, leasing the papacy way too much. Yeah. And it's just this issue that trickles down, too, to like the fact that the SBC, right, the Southern Bathurst Convention,

Starting point is 00:25:31 the fact that there hasn't been a sort of broadscale offensive against them, you know, even though they've been like driving. Also a massive problem, yeah. Yeah, driving all of the shit for fucking ages. And they were like, you know, like there was a point like a couple of years ago, but they were genuinely seriously weakened

Starting point is 00:25:45 by their series of like of internal abuse scandals. Yes. And, even though like these are like the church groups that are also backing the health care bans on the legislative level, there's no sort of political will to actually go to war with the right-wing churches that are doing this stuff. Well, so this is an interesting difference and it relates to what we were just talking about. The sentiments I hear among trans folks in the ground, you know, working class trans folks,

Starting point is 00:26:15 it's pretty anti-clerical, like to put it, to put it mildly. It tends to be more gentry types, especially ones more in Scotson institutions or like, you know, official political culture, the gang, stuff we've been mentioning, that have more of this aversion. And I will have to say, it wasn't always this way. I am old enough to remember when queer organizing, taking aim at mocking, even go directly going the attack against, suing definitely. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:26:44 religious institutions was a pretty common fixture. A prominent example when I deal with this in the earlier piece as well as touching on the more recent one was Actups, 1989, stopped the church action, which you'll imagine a queer org doing an action with that title today, in which case they militantly disrupted services of St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York because of the ridiculous homophobia of the Catholic Church and its role in the Asianicides. Yeah. And if there's some video of this that we linked in that first story from Actups Archives, and I find the signs hilarious, but there's stuff that you would immediately see tone policing about, even from some queer and trans media today. Yeah. You know, oh, we shouldn't alienate normies, all this, all that.

Starting point is 00:27:29 And, hey, there was a big backlash at the time. A huge one. The president condemned it. You know, the federal officials condemned it. The Congress critters condemned it. You know, there was this giant attack. This was unacceptable beyond the time. the pale. It also worked. The Catholic Church did start backing off their stances because they didn't want

Starting point is 00:27:45 to be attacked more. And I think it's a good example that stop looking at the damn polls and just fight them. Yeah. It's generally a much better approach. And I think, I have to say, I think part of this, as you've seen, especially with how, you know, the co-option of some of the results of equal marriage, when you saw after that era, gay in groups use that to become like the predominant force and gay keep a lot of other organizing and queer and trans activism, you saw this backing away from ever criticizing religious institutions. I mean, the advocate named Pope Francis in 2013, they're person of the year. Yeah. And like, this is the guy who said that, she said that gender ideology is more dangerous to the world of nuclear weapons. Yes. Again, you know, individual Catholics

Starting point is 00:28:40 are their own sets of beliefs and differ. Some are very obviously pro-trans. But like, the institution is very unequivocal on this. It has never stopped being that. And a long-time journalist covering the Catholic Church caution that, look, the term they used was changing the tone but keeping the same music for Francis's papacy. Yeah. And Leo is very much in that. Now, I think that actually opens up a weakness because with the, you know, revelation of the horrific levels of serial child abuse within the Catholic Church, with the, you know, atrocities on massive scales, involving in indigenous genocide, with the attacks in the 80s and 90s and 2000s about their homophobia and their role in the age genocides as well. well, like there was actually starting to be this giant institution, despite how hierarchical and unaccountable is starting to be on the back foot. And, you know, in some places like Ireland,

Starting point is 00:29:29 this has led to its power and numbers being like taking a massive hit. So there was a shift like any institution to give a hinder face. And the depressing thing is that among a lot of people should know better, it's largely work. Yeah. And I really wish you would be less taken in by symbolism. Yep. It's also like de facto a theocracy because one of the people we talked to Allison would try to get testosterone and right off the bishop's ban.

Starting point is 00:29:57 They're not Catholic. Their doctor isn't Catholic. Their pharmacy's not Catholic. Yeah. So you think, okay, well, you should be able to. No, no, no. The insurance that their spouse had was technically provided

Starting point is 00:30:10 through a Catholic healthcare network. Yeah. So it took them months before they finally got the testosterone and so now they have to pay out of pocket for it. They can for the time being, but for working-class trans people. That's one more cost on top of everything else. And eventually, those are costs you often can't bear. So, like, that's the reality.

Starting point is 00:30:28 Yeah. And the reality is unaccountable theoretical rule in areas where it's not supposed to be happening. Exactly. Well, and potentially any area. You know, if you have a secular practice today delivers you HRT, no issue. Yeah. It could get bought out by one of these networks tomorrow. Yep. Why the fuck do these religious institutions have the ability to influence, like, health care at all?

Starting point is 00:30:52 Yeah. Right. This is something you would think would be not a place where someone else's religion can suddenly. Yeah. And not even, like, that person's religion. It's like, the religious hierarchy of a church should not be able to dictate whether someone gets health care. And yet. Yeah, this goes well beyond the, you know, even supposed power in a secular society that, you know, religiously they can, you know, they can make this pronouncement that applies to those who believe in that religion or that specific denomination or institution or whatever. No, this is affecting plenty of people who have never set foot in a Catholic church. Yeah. Who are remotely Catholic. Even the providers that they're going to aren't Catholic.

Starting point is 00:31:35 And this is still happening because that's the kind of sway in power they have. And it's not been seriously challenged, including by liberals and even too many leftists. And you mentioned to the Southern Baptist Convention earlier. it isn't just the Catholic Church, but because of the sheer scale and the centralized nature of its hierarchy, they are certainly

Starting point is 00:31:54 probably the single most damaging institution on this front. The SBC is a problem while they operate on far too vast scale they don't operate in the scale the Catholic Church does. Yeah, and this is like, this is fundamentally,

Starting point is 00:32:07 like part of the issue here is just, there's a, I don't know if advantage is the right term here, but like the centralization of the Catholic Church relative to like the sort of divided Protestant denominations allows them to wield power

Starting point is 00:32:23 like collectively in a way that is a lot harder for something like the SBC where it just like it just doesn't have the scale that like that the church does and like that the Catholic Church doesn't because the Catholic church is this large is able to just buy out this much of the hospital system

Starting point is 00:32:41 and then because of the top down structures where the bishops can just go and vote and do and implement the stuff it's a really really really significant problem yes that is just not being dealt with this is not a problem that you can just like snap your fingers and solve by like running stuff through a state legislature yeah like you actually have to go after the institution you have to fight them on their ground yes and also this is you know it's it's kind of what i ended the december piece with but also it's something I emphasized in the second one, anyone who wants any kind of liberatory future,

Starting point is 00:33:18 regardless of whatever their personal beliefs are, anti-clericalism has to be part of it. It's not the same against being against every individual of a certain religion. It is specifically against this kind of theocratic hierarchy and its power over people's lives. You do not get to anything remotely liberatory without directly attacking and challenging that. And for too long, that struggle's largely been abandoned. Yeah. And not shockingly, fundamentalist of various varieties. And let's be honest, primarily Christian fundamentalists, have played a major role in American fascism.

Starting point is 00:33:52 Yep. And in stripping rights from entire groups. And it's interesting because you mentioned the council bishop beside this, but that's true, but it gets even more centralized than that. The, you know, progressive pope that's getting praised for, you know, condemning the Iran war. And it's always condemning or statements or this or that. Yeah, the Catholic Church is still kind of an absolute Theocratic monarchy in some ways. You know, he could just say, hey, American bishops don't do that.

Starting point is 00:34:17 Like, I'm overruling you. You do have to provide trans health care under whatever circumstances or, ideally all of them. He's chosen not to. And if you look at his history of transphobia before he became pope, it's not particularly surprising. Yeah. I think sort of like the very baseline kind of anti-clerical stance here is like the moment your religion is able to

Starting point is 00:34:40 dictate the behavior of people who are outside of it. Yes. You have crossed the line into sort of like into this kind of clerical rule in ways that I think everyone should be like deeply opposed to. Yes. Like universally that should be regarded as unacceptable and oppressive. Yeah. And this is what we're dealing with here, which is that when there isn't this, you know,

Starting point is 00:35:06 because like we talk a lot about sort of the separation of church and state, which has always been kind of a joke in the U.S. to like a broad extent, right? But like, you know, there are like other spheres that exist in our lives, right? There's, you know, like, there are economic spheres. There are health care spheres. There are like social spheres. And, you know, like the fact that a church can just be like, no, fuck you and cut off unbelievable numbers of trans people from their health care in a way that even the sort of like right-wing theocrats in office wouldn't be able to do is something that has to be

Starting point is 00:35:41 opposed. Because fuck that. It does. And I will add while, you know, obviously, and we deal with some in the story of, you know, an example of pro-trains folks at a Catholic hospital, even a Catholic hospital overwhelmingly, the staff were pro-trans. Yeah. But I do think and polls, to the extent that they matter,

Starting point is 00:36:02 you know, do show repeatedly that opinion within Catholics themselves. And visually is pretty split on this. There are a substantial number who are pro-trans rights and pro-trans health care. I also have to say, though, that at this point, I think there is a specific obligation

Starting point is 00:36:17 among them to speak up and act against this loudly. Yeah. And, you know, I think the example of the doctor who, who up on the people I interviewed, you know, get around the band to get top surgery. I think that's the minimum, honestly. Like, yeah.

Starting point is 00:36:33 Like, okay, if you support trains, rights, start here because I think pressure from that quarter, as we've seen, hits even harder on some of these institutions. You know, because while they claim, you know, be this above everything kind of hierarchy, we have seen worries about losing numbers of Catholics being involved in the church has driven their decisions before and more pressure will drive them again, potentially, you know? Yeah. I think it will. Like what we've seen pretty clearly just in my lifetime is when these institutions are under attack, when folks go on the offensive against them, culturally, you know, socially with direct militant organizing like ActUp did, then we see some of our rights and liberation advance, shockingly quickly in some cases, compared to where they were.

Starting point is 00:37:24 Yeah. And when that is relaxed on, when they are given space to gather power and plan and go back on the attack, then things get a lot worse very quickly. Yeah. This can be fought. The first part of fighting it is to talk about it, to be vocal, about to be loud, and talk about how it is unacceptable. I think, frankly, a lot of pressure can also be exerted on some of these gay inkworks. Yeah. Like, if they want any donations or any support, I don't think they should get a lot of donations to support.

Starting point is 00:37:54 I think there's better places to put it. But if they don't want to become pariahs and queer and trans communities, that needs to be the message. Like, you need to fight this. You need to fight this hard. You need to fight this now. Because to do otherwise, I think it's just an act of unforgivable cowardice and treaties and in war time to kind of use a metaphor. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:38:10 But, you know, we always end our pieces of TNN because I think, I mean, there was a joke about it I saw recently of like it is the sacred role of trans journalism to, you know, unnecessarily scare trans people beyond all measure. And I think people should take that to heart that among, like, trans folks, some trans journalism is getting that. And I've termed these pieces panic slop when they're badly sourced, exaggerate something. Yeah, yeah. The day we're recording this, the episode came out. So I don't know if like, if like some other unhinged thing has happened between now and then and you're like, wow, why are you not mentioning like public max executions of trans people or some shit?

Starting point is 00:38:48 Like, I don't know, I just like panics up. Like that's why, because this is, this is being recorded on the day in which our episode about this, But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like this panic slop shit. It's just like, yeah. But it's, you know, it's become a real problem in some quarters.

Starting point is 00:39:03 And yeah. I, you know, I think kind of it's to be a nerd like any reckoning with conflict and even like the warfare level of conflict is always like you have to have accurate information. You need to know what actually is a threat. What is not? And I think communities under fire, which we're all part of, have to have that even more so. And especially now. So I tried to exaggerate the very real threats, and the Catholic Church's ban is definitely one of them.

Starting point is 00:39:28 But also, like, people have fought this stuff. They fought this stuff even when the odds looked more dire. It can be fought again. Yeah, like during the age genocide. Exactly. They fought them and won. Yeah, exactly. And it can be fought against again and won, but it has to be fought and has to be fought hard.

Starting point is 00:39:43 Yeah. But I think the last thing I want to mention is something I say a lot with union organizing, but, like, the people in Act Up who went and fought, are just you. Yeah. There's nothing, like, special about them. They were just people who were forced to act. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:40:00 And who took up the fight and did it. Yeah. And I think that actually kind of can transmit something that has been seen as a bad trend within trans communities. I don't think that always is. Of, like, oh, trans communities, like, crucify their heroes too much. They pillory people too much. In a lot of cases, if it's a public figure, Yon Exeter, my bride,

Starting point is 00:40:18 that's done some really terrible stuff. They're acting out of, frankly, a just sense of great. But also, I think there should be a shift away from individual figures on pedestals, from looking to, like, a set of leaders to, you know, guide everyone else. I think we're strongest when the organizing is coming from everywhere. The fight is coming from everywhere. It's not singular figures. And honestly, I think pedestals are bad for everyone involved.

Starting point is 00:40:43 But, you know, and that's exactly what you're saying. Like, people can start acting now. They don't need to, you know, certainly I think it's good to pressure, large organizations and figures with power, partly because it gives people a sense of empowerment as well as occasionally fear works and they can see and, you know, something improves a little bit or something worse is avoided, but also just for like, it's just us, y'all, you know, like, yeah, that's what's going to have to solve this. And that is why we start, I don't know, I don't have a percentage on the episodes that we start

Starting point is 00:41:12 with things falling apart, but also putting them back together again because we can and we can make it better. They're building something better entirely. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And on that note, if people want to support TransNews Network, they can find out how to do so at TransNews.network. We are a worker-run nonprofit and kind of trying to set a model for trans media that's in-depth and hard-hitting and unrepentantly radical. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:41:39 But that also goes in-depth and investigates stuff and gives an accurate picture of what's going on, the threats, but also real victories. Yeah. And the best reporting on us is going to be done by us. Yes. So you can help make that possible. We appreciate any support we do. We do a stunning amount on a fairly shoestring budget. Yeah, it's unreal.

Starting point is 00:42:05 I appreciate that compliment. But yeah, it's an awesome crew of people. I am incredibly fortunate to work with all of them. Yeah. And actually, shout to my head to my realising, who did a great job of going through this piece. and also has done some incredible coverage. But yeah, everyone who works at TNN, I'm really fortunate to work with.

Starting point is 00:42:23 And, you know, this is trying to set kind of an alternative in trans-journalism that is worker run and is under Penton. Hell yeah. You two can go to war with the bureaucrats and the theeocrats and the politicians who are trying to destroy your life. Indeed.

Starting point is 00:42:48 Canadian women are looking for more. More to themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders, and the world are of them. And that's why we're thrilled. introduce the Honest Talk podcast. I'm Jennifer Stewart and I'm Catherine Clark and in this podcast we interview Canada's most inspiring women entrepreneurs artists athletes politicians and newsmakers all at different stages of their journey so if you're looking to connect then we hope you'll join us listen to the honest talk podcast on iHeart radio or wherever you listen to your podcasts

Starting point is 00:43:17 there's two golden rules that any man should live by rule one never mess with a country girl You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes. And rule two, never mess with her friends either. We always say that trust your girlfriends. I'm Anna Sinfield, and in this new season of the girlfriends... Oh my God, this is the same man. A group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist. I felt like I got hit by a truck.

Starting point is 00:43:51 I thought, how could this happen to me? The cops didn't seem to care, so they take matters into their own hands. I said, oh hell no, I vowed I will be his last target. He's going to get what he deserves. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Nora Jones, and I love playing music with people so much that my podcast called Playing Along is back.

Starting point is 00:44:25 I sit down with musicians from all musical styles to play songs together in an intimate setting. Every episode's a little different, but it all involves music and music. conversation with some of my favorite musicians. Over the past two seasons, I've had special guests like Dave Grohl, Leveh, Mavis Staples, Remy Wolf, Jeff Tweedy, really too many to name. And this season, I've sat down with Alessia Cara, Sarah McLaughlin, John Legend, and more. Check out my new episode with Josh Grobin. You related to the Phantom at that point. Yeah, I was definitely the Phantom in that. That's so funny. Each night, each morning, say you love me.

Starting point is 00:45:10 You know I... So come hang out with us in the studio and listen to Playing Along on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, former Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth. You doctored this particular test twice in so-ins, correct? I doctored the test ones.

Starting point is 00:45:41 It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Sunlight's the greatest disinfected. They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Alespian and Michael Marantini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young.

Starting point is 00:46:01 This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Americopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Woman, life, freedom. Such was the slogan of the women's movement considered,

Starting point is 00:46:36 key to the project of the Democratic, Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria, also known as Rajava. Though originating in the Kurdish liberation struggle, the project quickly became polyethnic. There are Syrians, Arabs, Armenians, Yazidis, and other groups involved in that project. And in fact, the internationally recognized name Rajava has fallen out of use by the project's administration in an effort to de-ethnicize the project. I'm going to keep using Rajabas simply because it's quicker to say than D-A-A-A-N-E-S or Denes or any other combination, but just wanted to put that disclaimer out in the beginning.

Starting point is 00:47:23 So in the midst of the Syrian Civil War, the region gained its de facto autonomy in 2012 and pursued a somewhat unique political experiment for grassroots governance and social legal reforms that have attracted significant international fever and support. For not recognized internationally as autonomous, except by the Catalan parliament, for obvious reasons, for the past decade plus, the people in the region have fought fiercely for independence from ISIS patriarchy, Turkish and Kurdians,

Starting point is 00:47:53 and other Syrian opposition groups. But recent events led to the newly minted Syrian government having seriously jeopardized the autonomy of the project. Welcome to It Could Happen here. I'm Andrew Sage, also Andrewism on YouTube, and I'm joined once again. It's me, it's James. Yes, and I had to talk to you about this because I know that you have contacts there, you have experience with that project, with the people involved.

Starting point is 00:48:20 And yeah, we're here to discuss the fate of Rojava. Yeah, I'm always excited to talk about Rojava, and I think it's super important that we talk about it right now. Like, yeah, there's a lot of bad stuff happening. currently, but this is really bad. Like, in Rojava, we had the opportunity to see people living without gods or masters, people building democracy without the state. We had the opportunity to, and we have the opportunity, right,

Starting point is 00:48:48 so Rochava's not gone. But, like, anarchism didn't have to be, like, an ideological construct that only exists in our little punk houses. It existed in an area where millions of people lived. And, yeah, so we should talk about how. we can be in solidarity with him in this very difficult time. Right, right. In fact, as we're on that topic, I think it's useful to have a brief explanation of the history

Starting point is 00:49:12 and ideology behind Behrase of a project before we talk about what's happened most recently. Yeah. So in brief, the project really began in Turkey, where the Kurdistan Workers Party or PKK was banned and some of its supporters moved to Syria and founded the Democratic Union Party, or PYD. Now, this party shared an ideological foundation with the PKK and its founder, Abdullah Uchalan, with the ideology of democratic confederalism, which I'll explain in a second. Rajava came into being following the Arab Spring of 2011, as various factions of Syrians

Starting point is 00:49:50 rose up against President Bashar al-Assad. And in such a climate of conflict, ISIS rose to prominence to threaten the region as a whole. So while Assad was dealing with other opposition groups in Damascus, he withdrew forces from North Syria, which left the region vulnerable to ISIS and Turkey. Kurdish groups in North Syria then formed the Kurdish National Council to secure the area, but after an ideological split, the project of Rajava would emerge as a polyethnic polity composed of the cantons of Afrin, Jazeera and Kobani. The PID operates Rajava within a political coalition called the Syrian Democratic Council, or SDC. The YPG or People's Defense Units and the YPJ or Women's Defense Units

Starting point is 00:50:31 are the paramilitaries forming the bulk of the political assembly's military coalition, which is called the Syrian Democratic Forces or SDF. I know it's a lot of acronyms being thrown at you at once. Yeah, it's an alphabet too. I think until relatively recently the bulk of the SDF forces were Arab. You have ideological groups that are allied right, the Northern Democratic Front, a Jaisal-Fulwar at one point, and then you have these groups which are more tribally based,

Starting point is 00:51:00 and those groups had allied to the SDF to fight the Islamic State. Right, yes. Yeah, they always want to push back on it being a majority. It is now, but that's a creation of the last eight weeks. Right, okay. I remember reading that the YPG and YPG were form another chunk of the SDF. I suppose that was more recent information that I had seen then. Yeah, I think it probably would have been.

Starting point is 00:51:24 Or, like, you will see that published in broadsheet newspapers and have done for decades, like it's just wrong. But there was this tendency in the, I guess, the Western press, right? And some of this is somewhat orientalist in a way. Like, they referred to the SDF as the Kurds because Kurds were somehow seen as closer to European people than Arabs. And like it attempted to sort of, I guess, to make it more palatable to an audience. Right, a kind of a racial elevation of some kind.

Starting point is 00:51:57 Yeah. And I think the friends. and we can talk about friends versus whatever else later, but would push back on that. They would tell you that SDF was majority Arab, certainly at the time it fought the Islamic State. And of course, there were Assyrians and Armenians and Yazidis and international volunteers as well.

Starting point is 00:52:16 For sure, for sure. So you had the Syrian Democratic Council or the SDC, led primarily by the PYD, right? Yeah. They were taken on the task of both fights and the Islamists while engaged in an ideological project to bring democratic confederalism into practice in North Syria. So democratic and federalism is a transitional political movement that tries to move beyond the nation state by refusing to seize state power.

Starting point is 00:52:45 Instead of organizing society through the state, they seek to organize society through local assemblies that manage their own affairs while coordinating action through confederations. Democratic Confederalism emphasizes pluralism over nationalism, secularism over religious government, and restorative justice, gender liberation, ecological sustainability, cooperative and communal economic forms. Democratic and federalism was seen as a pragmatic way

Starting point is 00:53:17 of building collective self-organization within the purview of the existing dominant, state model of the world, while gradually undermining its authority. Now, the gender liberation component in particular has received a lot of international attention thanks to the PYD's efforts to put it into practice. They established gender parity quotas in all administrative, political, and decision-making bodies and leadership roles. They established women's councils, addressed women's issues. They established the Women's Protection Unit, so YPJ, which is an all-female army, which is very popular. And they established, and they

Starting point is 00:53:53 established laws to ban honor killings and child marriage while strengthening the divorce rights of women. So these efforts and others within Rojava have garnered worldwide admiration for the project. And many international volunteers have visited Rojava to help them fight. And if you're in a lot of online anarchist circles, you've probably heard a lot about Rojava and solidarity with the liberation. But I think it has created a misconception that the solidarity that Anakis feel with Rejava is equivalent to one-to-one ideological alignment. Yeah. Right?

Starting point is 00:54:28 What they're doing is not anarchism. It's kind of its own thing. It's democratic and federalism. Yeah. And this has been abandoned and solidarity with the people, of course. But it just means, you know, being clear that we are fighting for a world in which many worlds exist. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:54:42 And so are they. And we are just willing to stand with and observe that project and, you know, wish for the best and hope for the best and see what comes of it. Yeah, there are anarchist formations within the SDF, right? Techosina, it means anarchist struggle. It's like a more doctrinally anarchist formation. And like the way that they would phrase their like participation is that they are there in solidarity, right? And like you say, we want a world where many worlds can exist.

Starting point is 00:55:13 And so they can offer. And like if you go to Rajava, people will ask you to offer feedback, right? The Kurdish World is TechMil report or feedback. They are willing to hear an anarchist critique and engage with it. It doesn't mean that they are anarchists, but it doesn't mean that they are opposed to anarchists either. They're more willing to engage with anarchism than most. Yeah, than almost anywhere else I've been in the world. Maybe aside from Myanmar.

Starting point is 00:55:44 But, yeah, they will engage with and have these discussions. And they're on an ideological journey, right? that the movement began within what they would call the nation-state paradigm. Yeah. I mean, the PKK was originally Marxist-Lenness. And Ojoland thinking has very much been like his journey has led the movement on a political philosophy journey, I guess, and there are different interpretations of different movements in different parts of Kurdistan that draw on his political philosophy.

Starting point is 00:56:14 But as his thinking while he was detained in Turkey moved towards this democratic confederalist outlook influenced by reading Murray Bookchin, among others. The movement also moved, and I think it was very well placed when the Assadist state withdrew to try and implement this, like you've mentioned, right, self-governance, brotherhood of peoples, all these things. But it wasn't always there, and it has been willing to change and willing to move its ideology over time. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the thing. We We don't want to look at people and projects and judged it based on where we are in our position and our ideological alignment. Because none of us necessarily started off as anarchists, right?

Starting point is 00:57:03 And while we may wish that, as an anarchist, I would wish that, you know, these projects would move closer to anarchy and would pursue and explore and experiment with that ideal and that idea. Everybody's on their own journey. and, you know, at this stage in capitalist global dominance and status global dominance, we have to let whatever experiments exist or explore the different angles. You know, there's not one right way quite yet, or there may never be. You know, as one on the topic of disclaimers, I suppose, I think it is important to address that, you know, the SDF is not all sunshine and roses. You know, there have been allocations of war crimes, including,

Starting point is 00:57:48 the recruitment of children and the allegations are forced, targeted displacement. Now, not all of these allegations have been conclusively verified and there are a lot of actors that have been involved in Syria over the years that are pushing narratives and counter narratives that have to be scrutinized on a case-by-case basis. Some of the war crime allegations, for example, have been made by Turkey, which is pretty suspect considering their track record of both hostility towards Rojava and the Kurdish autonomy and also their practice of war crimes on a similar basis

Starting point is 00:58:22 themselves, you know? Yeah. But still, hypocrisy has said, I think it is important to not turn a blind eye to these kinds of problems and allegations when they are made. Yeah, I totally agree. Like, if people are being compelled to do things through violence,

Starting point is 00:58:37 that is what the state is, right? And that is what we want to stop. And so if that is happening, then we should condemn it, right? be that where they're being compelled to fight or compelled to leave their homes. Like, that is a thing that we are opposed to inherently, right? And it doesn't matter who's doing it as the action itself is something that we are opposed to. And yeah, we should, again, like, we should look at this, like not through, like, Rose to.

Starting point is 00:59:04 I know I talk a lot about this, but I translated a piece from French a couple of years ago from an anarchist who had fought in Spain. And it was called refuting the legend. and the main thesis of the piece was that we should engage with the Spanish Civil War as it was not as we wished it to be. And that way we could learn from it and get better as opposed to just creating a hagiography

Starting point is 00:59:25 and like a, you know, like saints' lives. Exactly. Same applies here. I think, yeah, because the anarchist's sermons have been, you know, few and far between, unfortunately, the major experiments that is, the massive ones, the ones that make historical headlines.

Starting point is 00:59:39 And I think there is a temptation to, as you're saying, instructor a hagiography to glorify and venerate these attempts, I think it's very important for us to treat them with scrutiny, you know, to hold them up to certain standards and to evaluate their missteps and to highlight their missteps, even more than we highlight their successes, because that's the only way we're going to succeed in the future, is if we're willing to address and engage with those mystiques. Yeah, absolutely. I think on that point, look, the way that I see what's happening, Rojava is not in a monolithic way. There are tendencies and organizations

Starting point is 01:00:14 within the revolution, right? There are some who are probably operating in a paradigm that is not that far from the, like, ethno-nationalist or kind of nationalist Marxist paradigm. There are some that are operating closer to an anarchist paradigm. There are some who are somewhere in between those two things, right? And there are some who are some who are, would just want the Islamic state or the new Syrian state or the Assadist state to go away and leave them alone. And that's why they picked up arms and that's what they're fighting for. And like, again, right, we shouldn't, we should be suspicious of a movement which is entirely homogenous. We should be concerned.

Starting point is 01:00:58 And I have concerns about the way some dissenting voices have been treated in the AANES in the past year. We should raise those concerns. but like it would be inaccurate to view this movement as a monolith. Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing. It's important to raise concerns. It's sad that this phrase has been vasterized because it's a useful freeze, right? That is, you know, critical support.

Starting point is 01:01:23 Yeah. Or critical solidarity. It's been taken by certain internet actors to, you know, to propagate apologia. Yeah. for atrocities and erasure of state violence. But it is a useful way of, I think, freemen the way we should engage these projects. That solidarity doesn't imply that you keep your mouth shut, that you don't seek to learn, that you don't respectfully criticize.

Starting point is 01:01:57 That is, I think, the best way to engage these projects, not to, you know, close your eyes and just follow. Yeah, absolutely. Getting back to, I suppose, what's been happening more recently. Things have not been easy for the movement, really since the beginning in 2012. It has, for a long time, been caught in a web of conflicting and conversion interests. In addition to fighting ISIS and other Jihadist groups, Rojava managed to receive backing from the US out of a coincidence of interests and tactical necessity,

Starting point is 01:02:39 as I would put it, which is confused in some circles with the idea that, where Java is a U.S. designed puppet through and through. Right. So after the SDF liberated Raqq, they began taking more heat from Turkey, which saw the YPG as inseparable from the PKK and thus a threat. Remember, the YPG is the defensive army, the protective services, rather, and the PKK is the Kurdish party in Turkey. So they launched several military operations to prevent the Kurdish regions from linking up

Starting point is 01:03:11 and having territorial continuity within Syria. At the same time, Rojava faced economic blockades, restricted movement, and strained relations with their fellow Kurdish political groups in Iraq that were aligned with Turkey and aligned with the PYD's political rivals, which had lost influence since the establishment of Rojava. Then you also had the occasional alignments with Russia as a strategic leverage against Turkey and similar coincidences of interest with the governments of Iraq and Iran. and even cooperation between Rojava and Assad's government.

Starting point is 01:03:43 It's interesting to me that the U.S. alignment is what receives the most attention when it seems to me the Rojava had quite a roster of affiliations of convenience. Not to say that those partnerships or affiliations necessarily benefit to them in the long run, but it's important to place those affiliations in context. Rojava has been seen and treated as a chess piece, essentially, by both global and regional powers as they attempt to put out a voice of their own and eke out their own autonomy. So just before the 2019 Turkish invasion, the US abandoned Rojava entirely, withdrawing its troops and suddenly leading to the tragic fall of several settlements to

Starting point is 01:04:30 Turkey and Turkish aligned groups. However, that move to withdraw also raise the international profile of the Rojava struggle. as people on both sides of the political spectrum were pointing out this American decision to abandon its allies in the Middle East. So before we get to the fall of Assad, is there anything critical that you say I missed? I think a pretty good summary.

Starting point is 01:04:55 I've literally written a book about this, so there's always things I want to say. I was there during a time when Turkey was bombing, right? In addition to going to report on them, I just saw places as I was going about my day-to-day life that had been bombed the night before, right? I think there's this misapprehension that America is, and by America, I'm using that incorrectly.

Starting point is 01:05:16 The United States is allied with the PYD. That's not the case. The SDF was the U.S. partner force specifically in what's called Operation Inherent Resolve, which is the operation against the Islamic State, right? While I was there, the US shot down a Turkish drone because it flew too close to their bases. they also didn't shoot down the dozens of other Turkish drones

Starting point is 01:05:40 that killed little children while I was there, right? And I don't think anyone would reasonably expect them to because the US was not there in solidarity with the revolution. It was there fighting alongside them in this one specific thing. And while that doesn't take away the fact that it is disgraceful to abandon these people who gave 10,000, plus of their children alongside the United States, right?

Starting point is 01:06:11 That is shameful. It is also what we should expect from the United States. Yeah. People there use the word Hoval, which means friend, right, as opposed to like the way a Marxist movement might use comrade.

Starting point is 01:06:24 Their friends there understood the terms of their agreement with the US. Doesn't mean that they were not disappointed. It doesn't mean that they would not ask for assistance when their children are dying. Of course they would. But those the terms on which the US was allied with them. And certainly the US did not ideologically influence them. Perhaps the opposite is the case. There are certainly some people in the US military

Starting point is 01:06:48 who went over there and came back seeing the world differently. Turkey actually called the US government because some of the US soldiers were wearing Abdullah or Shulan patches at one point and raised complaints about it. But yeah, I think it's important to understand the terms of the arrangement between them. Otherwise, I think that's a pretty good pracy of the way things were. Do you have anything about Schengal? No, I don't.

Starting point is 01:07:13 I'll do my potted. People can read my book if they'd like to hear more about its operation. I've sent one to you, Andrew. Hopefully it's making its way across the ocean. Awesome. So, Schengal, the sacred mountain of the Azidis, right?

Starting point is 01:07:26 The Azidis are a group of people, an ethno-religious group, whose religion is probably closest to Zoroastrianism. They have like a peacock angel. the Islamic State targeted the Azidis because it considered them to be apostates and it subjected them to genocidal violence, right? This is the Uzi genocide. The states of the world largely abandoned the Azidi people. They tried to defend their communities, but they were overwhelmed by the Islamic State and they gradually fell back to Shengal, which is their mountain.

Starting point is 01:07:56 And they went to the top of their mountain to make their last stand, I guess, right? Like that was their place where they had always gone back to. And there were some US special forces on the mountain and from what I understand also some British special forces. But it was the friends from Kurdistan who decided to go, it should be noted that they're like fighting the Islamic State at home at this time. Their own villages, their own towns are being subjected to the same violence. they went onto the mountain and they built humanitarian corridor to extract the Azeidi people, right, with their bodies, with their blood. And if they had done nothing else since 2012, that would be reason enough for us to stand in solidarity with them, right? Like in that moment when the world letting the Azeidis die, right, when Obama and the United Kingdom and everything else was letting these people be subjected to genocide, it wasn't a military superpower.

Starting point is 01:08:54 who went to their assistance, who wasn't the French or the British or anyone else who was willing to risk. Again, there were small numbers of special forces, but it was regular folks from Kurdistan with Kalashnikovs who went to save them. And I think at this time when, like, Western analysts who perhaps either don't have a proper grasp of what's happening in Syria or do and are just willing to lie about it are condemning the A&ES as some kind of Kurdish-ethno-nationalist project, we can point to this. and we shouldn't forget the sacrifice that those people made at that time. Yeah, that's an important event that I didn't come across my research, but thank you for sharing. Yeah, of course. So I suppose we are now approaching the critical moment in Rajahua's recent history. Assad's government collapsed at the end of 2024, and the Hayat Terir al-Sham, or HTS,

Starting point is 01:09:54 An Islamist militia with roots in al-Qaeda stepped into the vacuum and rapidly took control of large parts of the country. Then HDS leader Ahmed al-Shaara was recast on the international stage as Syria's new president, welcomed by regional and Western powers, received in diplomatic capitals, and rewarded with the lifting of many sanctions. Turkey emerged as his strongest backer, as they were pretty cold with Assad, and they aggressively lobbied on behalf of the HTS government, refraving it as a stabilizing partner. And not long after the fall of Assad, in fact, Abdullah Uchland himself called for the PKK to disarm.

Starting point is 01:10:36 The SDF, which is only loosely affiliated with the PKK though, said, well, you know, not us, we will continue to fight. Yeah. So Western governments, particularly the United States and its allies, appeared willing to accept this transformation of the HTS. They calculated that of the FDS, fragmented and internally weak authority could be more easily stared to serve their long-term geopolitical interests. So the HDS Syrian government had a little press tour, but within Syria,

Starting point is 01:11:04 they moved pretty predictably, engaging in violent repression, displacement, and massacre of the Alawite, the Druze and the Kurdish communities in Syria. And for the Kurdish-initiated project of Rojava, the rise of the HDS government would mark the beginning of an end, greater isolation and a renewed pressure from within and outside of Syria's borders. After consolidating power, the HDS government pushed into the Kurdish regions and encircled Kobani, the historic border city that once symbolized resistance to ISIS. So for days, coordinated attacks targeted Rojava itself, threatening not only the survival of Kurdish self-government,

Starting point is 01:11:44 but the lives of hundreds of thousands of civilians, as food, water, and electricity would deliberately cut off, and the city placed under siege. The violence had been especially devastating in Aleppo. From early January, the Kurdish districts of Sheikh Maksud and Ashrafia became the focus of sustained assaults by Turkish-backed militias and units aligned with the Syrian transitional government. They would tell you that Sheikh Maksud was a diverse district.

Starting point is 01:12:10 And I'd probably described it as Kurdish as well, but they will point out that Yazidi people and a lot of the indigenous Christian peoples of the region who lived in Aleppo tended to live. live in Sheikh Maksud as well. Right, right. Okay, thanks for that context. Yeah, that goes.

Starting point is 01:12:25 So civilian infrastructure was systematically hit at homes, schools, mosques, and public buildings being shelled while abductions, torture, and executions reported near medical facilities. The bombing of Zalid Fakhir Hospital devastated the local healthcare system. And with mountain casualties and entire neighborhoods emptied, local councils in the SDF agreed to a ceasefire and withdrawal. on the 11th of January, 2026 to allow evacuations. More than 300,000 people fled. Many seeking refuge in areas still controlled by the Autonomous Administration, but fighting expanded eastward. Jihadist forces began targeting Raqa, Derezao, Hasaka, and critical infrastructure

Starting point is 01:13:10 like the Tishran Dam. Prisons holding thousands of jihadist detainees were located in these areas, and amid the chaos, Islamist fighters escaped, ISIS symbols reappeared, and memorials to Kurdish fighters were destroyed. There's one example which I think is particularly revelatory. It was consistently cast once again by like think tankers who either know that they're talking, speaking things that aren't true, I was going to say something else there, or they just don't know and they're being paid to pretend they know. But the one in Tabka that was destroyed, it was a statue of a YPJ fighter, but she was an Arab.

Starting point is 01:13:47 It was betrayed as like local people celebrating their liberation from the SDF, but it was a whole group of men destroying a statue of a woman, a woman from that community who had fought to liberate that community from the Islamic State, right? And I think that like when that context is deliberately excluded, that tells us an awful lot. Yeah, that's an extremely critical point, I think, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So as the Syrian forces pushed through the east, some non-Kuddish villages in the region

Starting point is 01:14:29 vected from Rajavah to the new Syrian government. Yeah, mostly in Lake Derizor, right, which is an area where you have this long-standing, they're referred to as tribal communities. I guess that's a fine phrase, but sometimes the word tribal, I think, is used in a derogatory way in the West. So what I'd be clear,

Starting point is 01:14:48 that's not what I intend to mean here, just that they have a different form of political organizing. Right, of course. And, like, there had not been, among those communities buy-in, I guess, to the AANES project. There was to the SDF as a military force, but not so much to the project. And it was those communities that switched their allegiances, right? This happened even in Aleppo.

Starting point is 01:15:12 And we can look at various economic and political and social reasons for that. And maybe at some point we should, but I don't think like now is the time. You know, we're concerned with ongoing struggle there. But yeah, especially in Derrezoor, what really is. saw the SDF front line crumble was the people who were in the SDF suddenly became allied with the SDG, Syrian transitional government,

Starting point is 01:15:35 Syrian government. Right, right. And so with these defections and with this onslaught of violence, Alshara delivered an ultimatum to the Kurds and to the other groups involved in the Ottoman administration from the Syria.

Starting point is 01:15:54 to dissolve the SDF and submit to incorporation under his command or face annihilation. So in response, the SDF commander Maslum Abdi appealed outwell calling on the support of anyone who aren't be willing to assist. And this is something that particularly made headlines. The anyone included Israel, which had previously intervened in Syria for the claim justification of aiding the Jerusalem. I think the way that question was posed to the SDF commander was definitely leading, like they were fission for a headline, for sure, from what I saw of that exchange. But in the context of the Palestinian genocide and the world's awareness of their genocide, I think that even with that desperation for survival in mind, that statement was, I think, a misstep. Yeah, we constantly see, like this allegation that the SDF specifically is like some kind of Zionist force or funded by Israel. That's been around for decades, right?

Starting point is 01:17:00 I will say a couple of things. First of all, like in the early Kurdish freedom movement, you know, Kurds died for Palestine, right, with the Democratic Front for the liberation of Palestine and Beaufort Castle. If the Israelis were genuinely allies of the Kurds, no one would dare touch them. We have seen what Israel is prepared to do to Muslim countries. They don't need much excuse. They would do the same in Syria. Furthermore, Israel has continued to invade Syria and has held Syrian territory for decades and has continued to take more of it under Alshara.

Starting point is 01:17:38 And Alshara has not done anything about it. So, like, I find the idea that he's, like, eliminating Zionism. It's very frustrating when, like, the IDF is literally inside his country invading it. And the Kurdish freedom movement as a whole has been pretty forthright about the genocide. So on October 7th, 2023, I was in Kurdistan. And we watched what happened first in Israel and then in Palestine, right? And they were pretty forthright about that no one should be killing civilians. And as the genocide in Gaza began, they were forthright about calling it a genocide.

Starting point is 01:18:16 And I think they didn't have to. No one was particularly asking them in 2023, right? And they did. And they made statements about it. And like, I think seeing them somehow ideologically inclined towards Israel when the, it largely wasn't Israel who was fighting the Islamic State, right? It was largely them in the US. I think it's just people understanding the politics of the Middle East in terms of Marvel movies.

Starting point is 01:18:46 They can only be two sides. And, like, I'm sure at the time when they were facing genocide themselves, they would have welcomed any support. But that doesn't mean that they support the murder of civilians in Gaza. They have been, like, extremely clear about that for an extremely long time. Absolutely. I don't think that should be quoted to question just because of the state punt of one commando. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:19:09 So after much fighting, the SDF signed agreements relinquishing control of Iraqa, Dars Azor and remaining territory west of the Euphrates, retaining only Haseaka and Kobane after withdrawing from the Tishran Dam. But even after conceding so much government forces violated ceasefire terms, so the SDF declared general mobilization across the Kurdish regions of Syria and neighboring states as a last desperate attempt to rally resistance. By the end of January, the autonomous administration had lost roughly 80% of the territory it once governed. The SDF was forced to retreat almost entirely into Hasaka government.

Starting point is 01:19:50 And on the 30th of January, the SDF formally announced a ceasefire with the Syrian government and accepted a framework for folding both their military structures and civilian administration into the Syrian state. Syrian authorities set timelines on this agreement. Within a month, they would retake control of water crossings, oil and gas infrastructure like Grimilani and Al-Suwaiti, detention camps holding ISIS members. and their families and strategic sites such as Kamishli International Airport. Interior Ministry units were scheduled to deploy to Hasaka and Kamishli almost immediately, and Syrian security forces would oversee the absorption of the Kurdish internal security

Starting point is 01:20:29 apparatus, the Asaish, into the state's policing structures. Militarily, the SDF estates to be absorbed under the Syrian Ministry of Defense, but on an individual vetted basis. Up to now, the fate of the female fighters and non-Sahisement. Syrian fighters within the SDF is unknown. And on the civilian side of things, the institutions created by the Rojav administration are to be absorbed as well. Kurdish officials have thus far secured the governorship of Hasaka and limited command

Starting point is 01:20:58 rules within the military. In exchange for their surrender, the Kurds gained some recognitions on people. The government claims to affirm national civil and educational rights, promised the return of displaced populations, and issued decrees recognizing Kurdish as a national language taught in schools, declared the Kurdish celebration of Noruz of public equality, and reversed decades-old citizenship

Starting point is 01:21:22 policies that stripped tens of thousands of Kurds of their citizenship. Thus far, most of these promises are on people, as I said. Yeah, I think they'd see it as like a rebranding, not a surrender as an agreement. Like, from what I understand, the epic gates still see themselves as the epic,

Starting point is 01:21:40 the YPG still see themselves as the YPG, the YPJ very much, still see themselves, as the women's defense force. And so, like, as you say, like, all of this is a paper agreement currently. We will see how, I mean, there are now Syrian Ministry of Interior Forces in Hesoka and in Camislo, but, like, some of that has come to bus. But what this means, talking to my friends there, like, we will continue to see exactly like what extent they still have autonomy and to what extent they are integrated to a state

Starting point is 01:22:18 which has in some instances banned women from wearing makeup, for instance. Yeah. Yeah. So the US and France co-signed this agreement and pledged oversee its implementation. And the president of the Kurdistan regional government in Iraq has also welcomed this agreement. But it still remains to be seen what happens next. Yeah. I did see 100 people who are non-Syrian Kurds.

Starting point is 01:22:45 I would imagine they would mostly be Turkish, so from northern Kurdistan, had withdrawn from Syria and Gant-Kandil, which is kind of the stronghold of the various other parts of the Kurdish freedom movement. So that's in southern Kurdistan or Iraq. It's nearly a border with Iran. But I saw that a number of them had withdrawn post-disagreement. That was probably on the 10th of February or somewhere around. there. So, yeah, sadly this is an outcome of the imperialist world order. That empires and regional actors will crush any threats to their power or will attempt to crush such threats. And as long as

Starting point is 01:23:25 such power remains concentrated in these states and militaries and ruling classes, whether they are secular or nationalist or Islamist or anything else, none of us can be free. Yeah. We could sit around on our chairs and speculates for what moves or Java could have done differently, whether it be affiliates advanced further, whether it be insufficient integration of and buy-in of other groups into the project, whether it be the alliances or agreements or affiliations that they engaged in. We can also sit around and look at all the limitations they face. Some they manage to overcome and others not so much.

Starting point is 01:24:05 but the blame does not lie in their failures to play this game of geopolitical chess as ruthlessly as other powers in the region. I think the blame lies in this game of geopolitical chess, in this ability of imperial powers to treat the people of the region as a whole as tools to be used and discarded. And the end, I continue to hold to the position that only a shared uprising from below, one that refuses compromise, one that cut the same. across nationalist lines has the potential to create a new world. And that fight must happen both within Syria and beyond, around the entire earth. The fight is not over in Rajavai. I find it hard

Starting point is 01:24:50 to believe that a people engaged in such a project would let go of that instinct and that drive toward greater and greater freedom. It remains to be seen what happens with them, but it also remains be seen what happens with us. what we decide to do to push our autonomy forward. And that's all from me for today. All power to all the people, peace. Canadian women are looking for more. More to themselves, their businesses,

Starting point is 01:25:28 their elected leaders, and the world are out of them. And that's why we're thrilled to introduce the Honest Talk podcast. I'm Jennifer Stewart. And I'm Catherine Clark. And in this podcast, we interview Canada's most inspiring women. Entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, politicians, and newsmakers, all at different stages. of their journey.

Starting point is 01:25:46 So if you're looking to connect, then we hope you'll join us. Listen to the Honest Talk podcast on I Heart Radio or wherever you listen to your podcasts. There's two golden rules that any man should live by. Rule one, never mess with a country girl.

Starting point is 01:26:05 You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes. And rule two, never mess with her friends either. We always say that trust your girlfriends. I'm Anna Sinfield. And in this new season of the girlfriend, Oh my God, this is the same man.

Starting point is 01:26:21 A group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist. I felt like I got hit by a truck. I thought, how could this happen to me? The cops didn't seem to care. So they take matters into their own hands. I said, oh, hell no. I vowed. I will be his last target. He's going to get what he deserves.

Starting point is 01:26:43 Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nora Jones, and I love playing music with people so much that my podcast called Playing Along is back. I sit down with musicians from all musical styles to play songs together in an intimate setting. Every episode's a little different, but it all involves music and conversation with some of my favorite musicians. Over the past two seasons, I've had special guests like Dave Grohl, Leve, Mavis Staples, Remy Wolf, Jeff Tweedy, really too many to name. And this season I've sat down with

Starting point is 01:27:22 Alessia Kara, Sarah McLaughlin, John Legend, and more. Check out my new episode with Josh Grobin. You related to the Phantom at that point. Yeah, I was definitely the Phantom in that. That's so funny. Share each day with me each night, each morning. Say you love me.

Starting point is 01:27:46 You know I... So come hang out with us in the studio and listen to Playing Along on the IHeart Radio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, former Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story.

Starting point is 01:28:08 This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth. You doctored this particular test twice in someone, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Sunlight's the greatest disinfected. They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing.

Starting point is 01:28:31 Greg Alespian and Michael Marantini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Amaricopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona.

Starting point is 01:28:56 Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is It Could Happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. A revolution is igniting across America, at least according to viral posts on social media and TikTok videos with hundreds of thousands of claiming that anywhere between three to six to nine warehouses have been set on fire this past week for not paying their employees a living wage. The revolution might be happy. Got a warehouse fire in Ontario. Warehouse fire in New York.

Starting point is 01:29:36 Warehouse fire in Bakersfield. Amazon warehouse fire in Ohio. So they set a mall on fire too. It hasn't just been factories at this point. It's also malls. It seems as though people have begun to eat the rich. Workers of the world ignite. Like most instances of viral misinformation,

Starting point is 01:29:57 there is a kernel of truth to this story and one worth focusing on, but through a massive game of cross-platform telephone, facts and causality get warped and misconstrued. Selective reporting of similar but unrelated events can be used to assert a connection between certain events, even if there is none. But let's start with that kernel of truth. Just after midnight on April 7th, a 29-year-old warehouse worker named Shemel Abdul-Kareem

Starting point is 01:30:28 allegedly set fire to a toilet paper warehouse in Ontario, California. After multiple pallets of paper products were lit on fire, the flames overwhelmed the fire suppression system and collapsed the roof. The blaze took over 12 hours to contain and ultimately destroyed the 1.2-merews. million square foot distribution center leased by Kimberly Clark, the company behind Kleenex, huggies, and Cottonell toilet paper. Local officials and the Justice Department has said the fire caused over $600 million damages. The 20 employees who were working midnight shifts at the warehouse when the fire started, all evacuated safely, and there were no reported injuries.

Starting point is 01:31:11 The day after the fire, videos uploaded to social media the night of the fire resurfaced, appearing to show the suspect intentionally lighting three fires inside the distribution center while speaking aloud about low wages, corporate profits, shareholders, and poor working conditions. You know, if you're not going to pay us enough to live or afford to live, at least pay us enough not to do the shit. All you had to do was pay us enough to live. all you had to do was pay us enough to there goes your inventory

Starting point is 01:31:47 the affidavit filed with the criminal complaint alleges that Abdul Karim filmed himself setting fire to multiple pallets of paper goods inside the warehouse and as he lit the fires he stated quote if you're not going to pay us enough to fucking live or afford to live at least pay us enough not to do this shit

Starting point is 01:32:08 unquote. Beyond the short videos Abdul Karim posted to his social media, the affidavit alleges he made further statements to friends and coworkers on the phone and via text message related to his motive for setting the fires. He allegedly texted, quote, I just cost these expletive billions, and wrote that the, quote, 1% is an expletive joke. U.S. Attorney Bill Assaley said in a press conference that after setting the fire, quote, in a phone call to one witness, Abdul Karim compared himself to Luigi Mangione, unquote. Abdul Karim also allegedly texted, quote, all you had to do was pay us enough to live. Pay us more of the value we bring, not corporate.

Starting point is 01:32:54 Don't see the shareholders picking up a shift, unquote. This past Monday, Abdul Karim pleaded not guilty to arson charges in court. Though the warehouse stored Kimberly Clark products, Abdul Karim was actually employed by NFI Industries, a third-party distribution company. NFI Industries is a family-owned private company and does not report its profits, but last year said they generated more than $3.7 billion in annual revenue and had over 18,000 employees. The average executive at the company has a $235,000 salary, with the highest paid making $700,000 annually. Meanwhile, the average pay of an NFI Industries warehouse worker in California per job listing sites is 1874 an hour. With forklift operators and warehouse specialists making $22.39 an hour, the median household income, in Ontario, California is $82,806 a year,

Starting point is 01:34:02 and the average salary is over $73,000 a year or $35 hourly. Ontario, California has a 28% higher cost of living than the national average. Last year, Kimberly Clark made $2.4 billion in operating profit. The footage of this worker allegedly lighting the warehouse on fire went super viral on TikTok with millions and millions of views sparking meme edits and hype videos. Then, and the days after the toilet paper fire,

Starting point is 01:34:38 footage of other warehouse fires started to spread around TikTok, leading some people to believe that copycat incidents might be taking place across the country. Here's a clip with over 300,000 views of a left-wing TikTok influencer claiming that since the toilet paper arson,

Starting point is 01:34:56 more people, have begun setting their workplaces on fire. So, apparently, that guy that burns down the toilet paper warehouse because they were not paying him a living wage or anyone, a living wage for that matter. Who the internet has dubbed WAL Luigi for Warehouse Luigi was not the only one with that idea or to execute on it. And I will say I am not 100% sure on the timelines of all of these. Oh, you're not 100% sure. Well, then that's fine. Continue anyway. This guy goes on to say that since Walloigi, he's seen,

Starting point is 01:35:34 quote, four to five to six, other warehouses that have, quote, burned down or at least been set on fire, unquote. A lot of this social media reporting does not differentiate between a warehouse completely burning down and a small fire that is quickly put out. Neither do these social media reports provide evidence to the cause of these fires. One of the most circulated videos of one of these other fires is from Queens. At 7.30 p.m. on Friday night, someone reported smoke at an industrial complex in College Point, Queens. Firefighters soon responded to a rapidly growing fire inside a lumberyard warehouse. After the building was searched and no one was found inside, 300 firefighters worked all night

Starting point is 01:36:20 to contain the blaze to the 64,000 square square. foot warehouse. The lumberyard did burn down, but no injuries were reported, and the cause of the fire is still under investigation. But a post on X the Everything app with almost a million quote-unquote views read, quote, another disgruntled employee strikes at the heart of American capital. That TikTok influencer, I already mentioned, was very excited to share news of an Amazon warehouse on fire, despite not being quite sure of the details or how many warehouses were actually on fire. At least one of which I am beyond happy to announce was an Amazon warehouse, which is not to say more than one weren't affected.

Starting point is 01:37:09 I've seen multiple videos of an Amazon warehouse on fire. I'm just not sure if it was multiple Amazon warehouses on fire or just multiple people recording the same Amazon warehouse that was on fire. Either way. Either way. Bottom line, people are setting Amazon warehouses on fire. There is no evidence anyone set this Amazon warehouse on fire, and yes, it is just one warehouse, not multiple. On April 8th, firefighters responded to a fire at an Amazon warehouse in West Jefferson, Ohio. The fulfillment center was evacuated as smoke billowed from the roof of the warehouse.

Starting point is 01:37:46 The fire was extinguished quickly and caused, quote-unquote, minimal damage to the underside of the roof. According to Jefferson Township Fire Chief Dan Gatley, there is no evidence that this fire was intentionally set by an employee or by anyone, and was possibly caused by a simple solar panel malfunction. Investigators believe 75 to 100 solar panels on the roof of the warehouse caught fire, which burnt through, quote, just a little bit of the rubber membrane on the roofing and some of the insulation, unquote, according to Fire Chief Gatley.

Starting point is 01:38:25 This insulation fell onto two racks of Amazon products, but Gatley estimated that more damage was caused by the water used to put out the solar panel fire than from the smoke or the fire itself. The exact cause of the fire is still under investigation. A post on X-The- Everything app with 1.1 million, quote-unquote views and 27,000 likes. Shared video of smoke billowing from the roof

Starting point is 01:38:51 of the Amazon warehouse and was captioned, this is beginning to feel like something of a movement. Another post from a monetized blue check account with 1 million quote-unquote views and 26,000 likes, also shared footage of the Amazon fire with the caption, Another warehouse fire, this time in Amazon fulfillment center in West Jefferson, Ohio.

Starting point is 01:39:14 Warehouse employees across the country are using their unique position to attack the substructure and base of the Epstein, class, unquote. We'll return to talk more about these fires after this ad break. Okay, we're back. By the weekend, this warehouse fire meme really exploded, and people started collecting reports of warehouse fires from all across the country.

Starting point is 01:39:50 This next video went viral across TikTok and also spread to Reddit and Instagram. I was tagged about this. This is an Amazon warehouse that also just caught on fire. So this is the third one. after we just heard about New York in Queens, and then the other one in California, where we saw the big video behind it, right? Now, this is breaking news. I don't know much about it.

Starting point is 01:40:12 I was tagged in this. This happened, I think perhaps today. I'm going to pause right here because next, she includes a severe weather alert warning for risk of fire spreading in the northeast, as if wildfires and this weather alert was somehow related to warehouse. fires on the other side of the country?

Starting point is 01:40:34 And I haven't been able to find any news about it online yet, but there's this special weather statement, moderate for a fire spread in Pennsylvania right now. So that's four, five right here where somebody said a jeans store was set in fire in California. Again, I can't corroborate these things right now. These are just comments. And somebody also said New Jersey for another warehouse fire. So that is literally California, New York.

Starting point is 01:41:01 Ohio, Pennsylvania, New Jersey. I'm getting comments and reports in right now that there have been five different warehouse or storefront fires in the last three days. This shit is fucking wild. Holy six. I think that's six because it's two in California, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey. And again, I'm trying to find these items online right now, but like I don't think the news cycle is caught up fast enough to it. So like, who class war, 2026, shit. This person describes herself on TikTok as a quote-unquote guerrilla journalist, and that video got almost half a million views on TikTok and 74,000 likes by baselessly claiming that a string of fires that may or may not even be real are actually intentional arsons

Starting point is 01:41:56 in an escalating class war, hashtag eat the rich. Let's go over some of the the details of a few of the fires that she and others have mentioned. In New Jersey, there were actually three fires this past week, one at a chemical plant, one at a battery warehouse, and a wildfire, which sent smoke into Pennsylvania. On Thursday, April 9th, a three-alarm fire spread through a chemical warehouse in Newark, New Jersey. Over a hundred firefighters brought the fire under control that afternoon. No employees were harmed, and the cause is under investigation. On the morning of April 13th There was another three-alarm warehouse fire in Rawway, New Jersey. While searching the structure, firefighters discovered the blaze emerged from pallets of lithium ion batteries. The exact cause of the fire

Starting point is 01:42:45 still remains under investigation. And this past weekend, a wildfire spread through South New Jersey, burning up to 160 acres, and sending smoke into Pennsylvania. The National Weather Service warned beforehand that there was an elevated risk of wildfires last Saturday due to low humidity and 25-mile-per-hour wind gusts. On the afternoon of Friday, April 10th, firefighters responded to a commercial structure fire at a trash disposal business near Atlanta, Georgia. The blaze stemmed from a garbage fire

Starting point is 01:43:20 in the warehouse that grew out of control when adult was sent to the hospital with non-life-threatening injuries. Per Aguette County news release, quote, the incident presented several operational challenges, including a downed power line, a deep-seated fire within large debris piles, structural components exposed to prolonged heat, and nearby hazards involving liquid petroleum gas tanks, and a diesel fuel reservoir, unquote. Firefighters brought this fire under control in less than four hours.

Starting point is 01:43:52 According to employees, the fire originated from a small trash fire near the edge of the warehouse, Work was attempted to remove the burning debris before the fire rapidly intensified and spread to the structure. The fire was ruled accidental, and department spokesperson Lieutenant Jessica Joyner said that it appears to have been caused by trash piled in an unsafe manner, which can combust when mixed together at such garbage facilities. But two days later, a viral post read, quote, Atlanta, Queens, Bakersfield, Ontario, I'm starting to lose track. Many people are saying, only living wages can prevent warehouse fires. Speaking of Bakersfield, a quote-unquote communist Twitter account, quote tweeted a video of a warehouse fire in Bakersfield, California, from a monetized news aggregator account,

Starting point is 01:44:45 and got 21,000 likes by writing, Let it be a pattern. Another account shared a different video ripped from TikTok, captioned, It's almost like electing billionaires was a bad idea. A socialist-branded, monetized account, posted another angle of the Bakersfield fire, getting 14,000 likes with the caption, Is a rebellion actually brewing in the Imperial Corps? On the afternoon of April 11th, firefighters responded to a fire at a 30,000 square foot warehouse in East Bakersfield.

Starting point is 01:45:18 The Kern County Fire Department said this is the third-time buildings at this warehouse complex have caught on fire in the past few years, with similar fires in November of 2024 and January 2025. The cause of this new fire is still unknown and under investigation, but we know it was definitely not caused by warehouse employees because this is an abandoned warehouse. The previous owner of the buildings told local news that the fires have been started by quote-unquote vagrants. A massive fire engulfed another lumberyard last Saturday night in Wayne County, Ohio.

Starting point is 01:45:54 It took 24 fire departments, across three counties working together to extinguish the flames. This lumberyard was home to a wooden pallet manufacturing business. On Sunday afternoon, the owners of the pallet manufacturing plant said in a statement, quote, we are grateful no one was injured and that the fire was contained. We are working with investigators to determine the cause and with our insurance carrier to begin recovery. Southwood Palat has served this community for 42 years, and we intend to rebuild and be

Starting point is 01:46:24 stronger than ever, unquote. Footage of this fire racked up over half a million, quote-unquote, views. On a socialist branded, monetized X account, captioned, Now there is a five-alarm fire at a lumber pallet warehouse in Wayne County, Ohio. There are too many fires to be a coincidence. The working class has had it. And quote tweets of the video got tens of thousands of likes, with users writing, quote,

Starting point is 01:46:51 love to see people finally standing up against their employers, eight in a week, and no more thoughts and prayers only fire, unquote. Here's another video with over 300,000 views from that TikTok guerrilla journalist, going through a few more of these warehouse fires that I've mentioned. Based on all of my comments and my research online, based on what people are telling me and from what I can see,

Starting point is 01:47:17 the ones that I can corroborate right now, was that last one was Ohio in a lumber yard and then we had the Ohio Amazon which was apparently due to the solar panels we'll say and then we have one in the Queens new york one which was lumber as well new jersey was a chemical warehouse Georgia was a commercial structure and then lastly the one that you all been tagging me in is the California jeans store which spread throughout them all from what I can hear and have seen online so that is a total of seven since our original Luigi man set fire to the toilet paper facility, that one. So that's where we are right now. A total of seven in about three, four days of warehouse storefront fires throughout the United States. Now,

Starting point is 01:48:03 we don't know about all of them, but these are the ones that are on the radar right now. So if there's more out there, let me know, but we're up to seven now. Out of all the fires that she's talked about, the only one that we know is arson, besides the toilet paper warehouse, is this fire at a mall in the same city in California, where a man who does not work at the mall allegedly lit multiple fires across several stores. The mall reopened later that same day, and authorities have said there's no connection to the warehouse fire,

Starting point is 01:48:34 though the investigation is still ongoing. Before I discuss what's actually happening with all these warehouse fires, let's go on one more ad break. All right, we are back. So what's really going on with all these warehouse fires? Is all this reporting just a coincidence? Are these fires really labor-related? Are these all disgruntled employees?

Starting point is 01:49:05 Is there even more fires happening than usual? All good questions. Even if the exact cause of most of these fires hasn't yet been determined, it does seem from watching all these videos that there's been an increase of warehouse fires since the first toilet paper inferno. Though, just because you're more aware of warehouse fires happening across the country, doesn't mean that these fires are actually happening at a higher rate. A report from the National Fire Protection Association found that from 2020 to 2024,

Starting point is 01:49:42 an estimated 1,544 warehouse fires occur every year. That's an average of four fires per day. warehouses are home to a lot of high-heed equipment and materials that are easily combustible, like lumber, paper products, batteries, and chemicals. The recent National Fire Protection Association report found that most warehouse structure fires had an unintentional cause, 29%. 10% were caused by failure of equipment or a heat source. And intentional fires accounted for just 7% of warehouse.

Starting point is 01:50:21 Fires. Operating equipment was the leading heat source in warehouse fires, responsible for 43 percent, and shop tools and industrial equipment were involved in the ignition of 19 percent of warehouse fires. Misuse of material or product and electrical failure are the leading factors contributing to ignition. Improper storage of flammable materials and human error are also contributing factors. Intentionally, set fires or arson does happen, but it's not the most common cause of modern warehouse fires. And again, warehouse structure fires happen four times a day on average. So not only is there no proof that underpaid employees have begun a spree of lighting fire to their workplace, but there hasn't

Starting point is 01:51:11 even been a recent increase in warehouse fires. On Monday afternoon, footage spread online of another warehouse fire outside Miami, with the caption, Living Wages Prevent Warehouse Fires. But this fire actually took place over a month ago on March 5, 2026, at an inventory storage warehouse. An employee told NBC Miami, quote, apparently there was a short circuit and a spark fell on one of the carpets we have, and that's how the fire started. We tried to put it out, but it happened too fast, unquote. Officials have not yet confirmed those details and the exact cause the fire is still under investigation, but it is literally impossible for this fire to in any way be related to the toilet paper warehouse because it happened a month prior, and the footage is just circulating now

Starting point is 01:52:06 to boost social media engagement. The video of the employee allegedly setting fire to pallets toilet paper, channeled such a strong feeling across American workers that people invented and circulated a whole fake news cycle about a string of copycat incidents. Something tells me we're not done with the warehouse fires. Just a hunch. Because only if you had paid us a livable wage. And I'm pretty sure everyone is fucking over corporate America at this point. Like over it. People are starting to realize that there are more of us than there are of them. And the only thing that they care about is their profits, not the people. So if you burn down the profits, the people will find

Starting point is 01:52:45 other jobs. Companies have insurance. The message really sent. I'm not condoning it or encouraging it, but I am saying it makes a point. That TikTok clip demonstrates why people are so primed to share these fire spree claims and memes of Smokey the Bear

Starting point is 01:53:01 saying only living wages can prevent warehouse fires. This whole warehouse fire social media news cycle is an instance of selective reporting, which happens when there is a big national news story, like someone filming themselves burning down a 1.2 million square foot warehouse, and then that causes people to share what they believe are related stories,

Starting point is 01:53:25 often from local news reporting, even if the connection is minor or tangential at best. A local report from Wayne County, Ohio, ordinarily would not circulate as national news. But on social media, a relatively unremarkable lumberyard fire can become part of of a new increasing trend. Sometimes local news agencies themselves may be incentivized to cover smaller stories in a certain way to ride the coattails of a national story

Starting point is 01:53:54 that shares a few similar details. Or national news outlets fishing for clicks may themselves cover what would typically only be a local story if it relates to a currently viral topic. A post on X the Everything app with 1.4 million quote-unquote views and 67,000 likes, read, quote,

Starting point is 01:54:15 we're up to six warehouses set on fire now across the country, and I feel like it's being severely underreported, unquote. If anything, these fires are being overreported. Another example of selective reporting is aviation accidents, where in the weeks after a high-profile commercial airline crash, local news reports will spread around social media about even more plane crashes. even if these are mostly small private planes, which get into accidents semi-regularly a la Harrison Ford,

Starting point is 01:54:48 or minor runway incidents that usually don't make the news. A 2025 poll from Data for Progress showed 72% of likely voters believed plane crashes were becoming more frequent. A CNN report analyzing National Transportation Safety Board data from January 2024 to March 2025, found that out of 1,2008, flight safety incidents, only 60 incidents involved commercial carriers. Some of these incidents included turbulence or incursions, that's unauthorized aircraft, vehicles, or pedestrians on the runway.

Starting point is 01:55:24 Half of these 60 incidents resulted in injuries and two involved fatalities, the helicopter collision in Washington, D.C., and a plane crash in Alaska. While those fatal tragedies and other high-profile incidents, like the runway flip in Toronto and the door flashed, off in Alaska Airlines plane mid-flight, have sowed fear in the general public. Statistically, air travel is not getting more dangerous. The number of yearly safety incidents have remained mostly steady the past decade and only dropped around that pandemic due to a decrease in total air travel. In fact, on average, flying has only gotten safer.

Starting point is 01:56:03 Even including private and recreational flights, the average number of annual deadly incidents has fallen by more than half since 2000, excluding 9-11. Despite viral news clips of near misses on the runway and an air traffic controller shortage, those runway incursions have also steadily dropped in recent years. But such data can be hard to stomach if in the days after a high-profile aviation incident, you keep seeing more reports about plane crashes all across the country. But that itself is selective reporting. On average, three to four planes crash every day, and these are typically small private planes, not commercial airliners.

Starting point is 01:56:45 And typically, a small Cessna crashing in Kentucky doesn't make national news. The same thing is happening with these warehouse fires. Lefty TikTok influencers and many others participating in this warehouse fire meme are ascribing the motive of one person onto a collection of unrelated incidents, trying to create a pattern when there probably isn't one. I saw that this one guy said that he did it because of his anger towards capitalism. And I don't know if that was the original toilet paper guy or like another one of these warehouse fires. But to each and every one of them, period. Keep it up.

Starting point is 01:57:25 Again, out of all the incidents I've mentioned, the only two we know were intentional was the toilet paper warehouse and the Ontario Mall. and the only one we have a suspected motive for is the toilet paper warehouse. An Emerson College poll found that 41% of young voters thought the actions of the United Healthcare Assassin were acceptable. Another 19% said that they were neutral on the question. Luigi Mangione memes and reactions to this toilet paper fire do demonstrate a form of class consciousness. This same week, people have cheered the attacks on the home of OpenAI CEO Sam Altman. Even if influencers are just trying to make a profit, there is an active willingness among the consumers sharing memes and this living wage

Starting point is 01:58:15 warehouse fire content to rally behind such action. The working conditions at these warehouses can be inhumane. Just last week, a 47-year-old worker at an Amazon warehouse in Troutdale, Oregon, collapsed and died. supervisors prevented someone with CPR training to assist with chest compressions and instructed employees to continue work as usual as the body laid still on the floor. Oregon OSHA has said the death was not work-related. In a catastrophic vibe shift, let's go back to our left-wing TikTok influencer for his analysis. I really hope this is a sign of of what we all hope it's a sign up.

Starting point is 01:59:04 I can't be the only one who has felt like the tides are turning, the tables are turning, the winds are shifting. It really feels like there's actual movement being made in just the last few days. And now all these warehouse fires, which sure, could be a coincidence. But I don't think so. At least I hope not. But what do you guys think? Comment below.

Starting point is 01:59:26 And if this really is truly the beginning of it all ending, give me a fine. follow for more like this. Everyone knows. The most important thing to do when the revolution starts is to give me a follow. Speaking of, there is just two days left of Webby voting for it could happen here behind the bastards and migrating to America. And we may need a supermajority to beat the MS now filibuster. So go make your voices heard before voting ends on April 16th.

Starting point is 01:59:59 That does it for me today. at it could happen here. See you on the other side. We and women are looking for more. More out of themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders, and the world are out of them. And that's why we're thrilled to introduce the Honest Talk podcast. I'm Jennifer Stewart.

Starting point is 02:00:26 And I'm Catherine Clark. And in this podcast, we interview Canada's most inspiring women. Entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, politicians, and newsmakers, all at different stages of their journey. So if you're looking to connect, then we hope you'll join us. Listen to the Honest Talk podcast on IHartRadio or wherever you listen to your podcasts. There's two golden rules that any man should live by. Rule one, never mess with a country girl.

Starting point is 02:00:56 You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes. And rule two, never mess with her friends either. We always say that trust your girlfriends. I'm Anna Sinfield. And in this new season of the girlfriends, Oh my God, this is the same man. a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist. I felt like I got hit by a truck.

Starting point is 02:01:18 I thought, how could this happen to me? The cops didn't seem to care. So they take matters into their own hands. I said, oh, hell no. I vowed. I will be his last target. He's going to get what he deserves. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe.

Starting point is 02:01:36 On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nora Jones, and I love playing music with people so much that my podcast called Playing Along is back. I sit down with musicians from all musical styles to play songs together in an intimate setting. Every episode's a little different, but it all involves music and conversation with some of my favorite musicians. Over the past two seasons, I've had special guests like Dave Grohl, Leve, Mavis Staples, Remy Wolf, Jeff Tweedy, really too many to name. And this season I've sat down with Alessia Kara, Sarah McLaughlin, John Legend, and more.

Starting point is 02:02:17 Check out my new episode with Josh Grobin. You related to the Phantom at that point. Yeah, I was definitely the Phantom in that. That's so funny. Share each day with me each night, each morning. Say you love me. You know I... So come hang out with us in the studio

Starting point is 02:02:40 and listen to Playing Along on the IHeart Radio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, former Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth. You doctored this particular test twice in someone, correct?

Starting point is 02:03:06 I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Sunlight's the greatest disinfected. They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Lesbian and Michael Marantini. My mind was blown.

Starting point is 02:03:26 I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Americopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's been more than a month since the U.S. and Israel began raining down bombs on Iran.

Starting point is 02:04:01 We've covered the weekly developments every week on executive disorder. But I decided it was high time and made a full episode to get people up to speed with the USA's latest aggression, and the IDF opening up another front at its multi-front war against the people of the Middle East. Normally one would expect a major war with a major power like this which has fundamentally destabilized the region, a grand world trade to a halt, cause massive inflation to have some kind of very clearly defined set of goals. That is not the case here. We have seen various justifications, but the most common one seems to be that Iran is just weeks from creating a nuclear bomb. This is a claim that specifically Benjamin Netanyahu has been making for almost the entire time I have been alive. Here he is saying something similar a decade ago.

Starting point is 02:04:47 The foremost sponsor of global terrorism could be weeks away from having enough enriched uranium for an entire arsenal of nuclear weapons. His claim was fanciful then, and it remains even more so now, after 2025's Operation Midnight Hammer, saw the USA and Israel attempt to bomb nuclear facilities. Indeed, the White House itself published a statement on the 25th of June following Operation Midnight Hamer. in which they quoted the Israel Atomic Energy Commission, saying, quote, we assess that the American strikes on Iran's nuclear facilities, combined with the Israeli strikes on other elements of Iran's military nuclear program, has set back Iran's ability to develop nuclear weapons by many years. The achievement can continue indefinitely if Iran does not get access to nuclear material.

Starting point is 02:05:36 It also included a quotation from Pete Heggseth, a Secretary of Defense, saying, quote, based on everything we have seen, and I've seen it all our bombing campaign obliterated Iran's ability to create nuclear weapons. That was less than a year ago. It seems unlikely that they destroyed much or any of the uranium that was stockpiled, but they certainly would have delayed plans to enrich that uranium or to build into a bomb. Nonetheless, on the 28th of February this year, a massive campaign of airstrikes, high marsbarages and ballistic missile attacks on Iran began under the code name Operator.

Starting point is 02:06:13 epic fury. The acronym OEF will be familiar to many as the same one used by the USA for more than a decade of war in Afghanistan and other parts of the world during what it called the global war on terror. On the day I'm writing this, it's exactly 23 years since United States Marines tore down the statue of Saddam Hussein that stood outside the 17th of Ramadan Mosque in Ferdos Square in Baghdad, removed his regime from power. Since then, for my entire adult life and much of my child, The USA has been dropping bombs on the Middle East. This month, the tempo and ferocity of the aerial bombardment took a step up, to a tempo we haven't seen since perhaps the peak of the coalition war against the Islamic State,

Starting point is 02:06:56 or perhaps even the Shock and Or bombing campaign of March 2003. And I want to go back to that campaign to explain exactly how we got to this one. The Shock and Or campaign was based on a doctrine called Rapid Dominance that sought to establish a post-Cold War military ethos of United States. states, the theorist behind it named Olman and Wade explicitly outlined that to work, the shock and awe bombing campaign had to achieve a level of national shock like that of the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan, and that power and other civilian infrastructure might well be targeted. In an interview in February 2003, Olin said, quote,

Starting point is 02:07:33 What we want to do is create in the mind of the Iraqi leadership and their soldiers this shock and awe. So they are intimidated, made to feel so impotent, so helpless that they have no choice but to do what we want them to do. So the smartest thing to say is, this is hopeless, we quit. The US attempted to pummel their adversary so hard in 2003 that it would demoralize troops and lead to a rapid victory through the use and display of overwhelming force. In Iraq, 23 years ago, it sort of worked. The regime crumbled in less than a month. The USA, got its quote-unquote victory, and by the 1st of May of that year, George W. Bush had landed on the USS Abraham Lincoln off San Diego and given a speech in front of a large banner that read

Starting point is 02:08:19 Mission accomplished. Twenty-three years later, the Lincoln is in the Middle East and bombs are once again raining down on Iran and Iraq, while one-way drones and missiles from Iran slam into targets all over the region. In Iraq, 23 years later, the United States Embassy, is once again being attacked, a US journalist was kidnapped, and the State Department is telling citizens to avoid the region. The US bombing campaign in Iran this year dwarfs the 2003 shock and all campaign, with the first day of Operation Epic Fury being almost twice the scale of the 2003 bombardment. However, they do have several things in common.

Starting point is 02:09:02 Just like the bombardment of Iraq, even 23 years later, the US and Israeli air war showed us that there is no such thing as a decision bombing campaign on this scale. On the very first day of the war, the 28th of February, 2026, a missile slammed into a girls' elementary school in Minab, then another, and then another. When the dust settled, more than 175 people had been killed, mostly schoolgirls, between the age of 7 and 12 years old. The school was located near an Iranian Revolutionary Guard base, but the school building itself had not been part of a military facility for a decade. And yet, despite targeting technology that allowed three missiles to scream across a continent

Starting point is 02:09:44 hit a relatively small target in quick succession, apparently the US military had not been able to ascertain or perhaps did not care to ascertain that the result of their strike was the death of as many as 100 schoolchildren. The fact that I am reporting this 40-odd days into the war suggests that despite an even larger scale campaign than the USA deployed in 2003, Despite the killing of little girls, the Iranian state has not said, this is hopeless we quit, as all one hope they might. Iran's supreme leader Ali Hameini was assassinated in initial attacks. The power has since passed on to his son.

Starting point is 02:10:20 Iran remains very much in the fight, despite the massive display of force by the US and Israel. Instead of quitting and giving up, they have been sending ballistic missiles and one-way drones into targets throughout the Gulf states, Israel and southern Kurdistan. This is in part because the United States and Israel had no clear shared plan for this war. In 2003, the US aimed to remove Saddam Hussein, and it did that. It made a massive cock-up of everything it did after that. But this time, we have two belligerent nations with very distinct goals who share a common interest in bombing the people of Iran. Israel, which by some accounts hit more targets in the USA early on in the war,

Starting point is 02:10:59 is fighting to totally cripple the Iranian state in a no-holds-barred, no laws of war-respected campaign that has seen it bomb factories, oil infrastructure, most horrifically of all desalination plants. The goal for Israel is to make it impossible for Iran to recover, it seems, to leave the region mired in poverty and resource constraint, and make sure that no Iranian state, be it this one or a different one, can ever be a threat to Israel again. It has assassinated many of the figures who have the ability to negotiate for peace, and the recent ceasefire seems to have been something that Israel does not feel itself to be beholden to. For the US, the goal seems to be to use something similar to shock

Starting point is 02:11:37 and awe to force Iran into conceding its position and allowing the USA some access to its significant petrochemical resources. Perhaps emboldened by its success in Venezuela, the US might be expecting a similar client-state relationship here. However, this has not been the outcome. Over the weekend of the 11th and 12th of April, J.D. Vance, Jared Kushner and Steve Whitkoff flew to Pakistan as part of a Pakistani brokered ceasefire. we engage in peace talks with Iran. Before these peace talks, we saw both the US and Iran circulating very different bases for negotiation, with Iran demanding tolls for ships passing near its coastline, an end to sanctions, and the removal of US forces from the region. The US demanded an end to

Starting point is 02:12:18 the nuclear program in Iran, and at one point the president proposed a joint US-Iranian toll on ships passing through the Strait of Hormuz. Strait of Hormuz is one of the areas where there has been significant disagreement. And so I want to explain. a little bit about what the Strait of Hormuz is for listeners who are not familiar. Geographically, the strait connects the Persian Gulf and the Gulf of Vermont, and thus the open ocean. It's just about 39 kilometres wide across its narrowest point, with about a quarter of the world's liquefied natural gas and seaborne oil passing through the strait, because of its geographical location, Asia and Europe are especially reliant on these energy products. Many of the Gulf states will

Starting point is 02:12:56 have no maritime export routes without transiting the street. In response to the United States and Israel's bombing campaign, Iran effectively closed the street through a combination of missile threats, claimed mining, very high-frequency radio broadcast warning ships of the two previously mentioned threats, and uncrewed surface vessel attacks that blew up and damaged vessels, including oil tankers in the Persian Gulf. At the time of writing, Iran is threatening ships transiting the street, and the US is attempting to blockade all ships that aim to go to Iran. Iran has previously allowed some ships a right to pass safely if they pay a toll, payable in cryptocurrency or Chinese yuan. Some ships appear to have certainly transcended the trade, but many more have not, and this

Starting point is 02:13:38 presents a serious issue for global trade. Luckily, the problems with global trade have not affected our advertisers, so here are some goods and services that will probably cost more than they did a few weeks ago. The United States has a lack of capacity when it comes to mine sweeping. Many of the ships it does have, which can do that, but not currently very close to the straightforward Pormuz. On the 12th of April, it did send two destroyers into the Strait, normally to begin mine clearing operations. But these aren't really the sort of ships that would do that so much as they would work alongside the ships that do that do that to provide them with security. There is currently a safe lane through the Strait that Iran seems to be sending ships through, but it's a little

Starting point is 02:14:27 unclear to what extent of at all the Strait is mined, and what kind of mines were used. Naval mines can vary. They can be pretty simple contact-fuse mines like the ones you might have seen in the minesweeper computer game, or bottom mites, triggered by a number of mechanisms. Clearing a body of water this large would take a significant amount of time. Stopping transit street was not Iran's only response to the attacks. They have launched a massive fuselade of one-way drones and missiles at targets across the region. Their Shahid drones are one of the most significant military innovations of the last decade. They're cheap, one-way drones that can do tremendous damage at a very very very large.

Starting point is 02:15:08 very low cost. If you've ever heard of Shaheed drone, you won't forget what they sound like. It's like a lord mower flying over you. These drones have been so successful that the US has cloned captured drones to make its own one-way drones, which it calls Lucas drones. And Iran has licensed production to Russia, which uses them in massive numbers against Ukraine. These drones have provided a cheap and relatively easy to launch platform for Iran strikes, which is focused on US allies, Israel and Bashur Kurdistan. Bashur, meaning southern, or Iraqi Kurdistan, has taken a particularly heavy toll. Much of this has been due to reporting in the early days of the conflict,

Starting point is 02:15:45 which began with notorious fact-check of Ada Barack Ravid. Much as this reporting, heavily implied or outright said that Kurdish ground forces were repairing an assault into Iran. Ravid's peace, which reported that Trump had spoken to two major Kurdish leaders, was particularly shocking because it erroneously conflated Iraqi Kurds with Iranian Kurds, those from Eastern Kurdistan and Rojolat. It's true that the majority of anti-regime Kurdish armed groups from Iran retain bases in Iraq. But it's extremely unlikely that the KDP in the P-UK,

Starting point is 02:16:18 the major actors in Iraqi Kurdistan, will be storming the border into Rojolat any time in the near future. However, I have spoken to several of the Rogelati armed groups who are part of the Alliance of Political Forces of Iranian Kurdistan, the groups involved in a Democratic Party of Iranian Kurdistan or the PDKI, the Free Life Party of Kurdistan, PGA, the Kurdistan Freedom Party, PAK, two of the Kamala parties, and the Habbat or the organisation of the Iranian Kurdistan struggle. The alliance predates the United States and Israeli campaign that came around earlier this year. Arash Saleh, I spoke to him for the PDKI, told me, quote,

Starting point is 02:16:56 at this point, the whole coalition is built upon some type of self-rule inside Iranian Kurdistan as the main demand for all of them, and that as the main demand, for all the Kurdish people in Iranian-Kurdistan. This unity of groups is a positive step, and it represents a real opportunity for liberation of the people of Roger. But none of these parties are willing to be the spearhead of an American and Israeli offensive without guarantees that they will receive support for their own goals, which are very different to those of the USA and Israel.

Starting point is 02:17:24 In more recent weeks, President Trump has insinuated, and Fox News has claimed that he said this, but I haven't seen any recording of it, that the United States sent weapons to Iranian protesters through Kurdish groups, but that the Kurdish groups kept them instead of giving them to the protesters. Here's the clip of Trump implying this, and you'll have to forgive me for the garringly awkward light jazz background music here.

Starting point is 02:17:46 They don't have guns. You know, we sent some guns, but the group that was supposed to give, which I said what happened to my people, I said it, I called it exactly. We sent guns. A lot of guns. They were supposed to go to the people

Starting point is 02:17:59 said they could fight back against these thugs. You know what happened? The people that they sent him to kept them because they said, what a beautiful gun, I think I'll keep it. So I'm very upset with a certain group of people, and they're going to pay a big price for that. But the Iranian people will fight back as soon as they know they're not going to be shot and as soon as they can get weapons. The Kurdish groups I've spoken to have denied this,

Starting point is 02:18:24 and it's not really logistically feasible. Homo Knox Bandi, a member of the Germanos, General Command of the Kurdistan National Army, which is the Peshmerger associated with the Kurdistan Freedom Party or P.A.K. said that, quote, Donald Trump's message is unclear to us. What is there is that we, as our army, have in no way received weapons from the US or any other country, not even a single bullet. And the P.A.K. confirmed that statement to me this morning at the time you're hearing this. That will be yesterday morning. I checked in with them then. Transiting the mountains of that part of Kurdistan and then smuggling weapons all the way to Tehran. It's not what they do, and it would

Starting point is 02:19:02 be very hard for them to do it. Also, at the time of the large anti-regime protest in Iran in January, we saw groups, notably the P.A.K. the Kurdistan Freedom Party, using weapons that really don't appear to be US-supplied, like pump-action shotguns. Nonetheless, this rumor, combined with the fact that Trump really did call Iraqi Kurdish leaders at the start of the conflict, presumably to ask for support has led to Iraq's Kurdistan region been targeted a great deal. These drone and rocket rights have not just hit military targets, but also to refugee camps where the families displaced from Rojolat live and many other civilian targets in major Kurdish cities. To quote, a PDKI statement, quote, since the beginning of the war with the United States and Israel,

Starting point is 02:19:47 the Islamic Republic of Iran has so far targeted the family camps, medical centers and educational facilities of the Democratic Party of Iranian Kurdistan, with more than. than 110 missiles and drones. These attacks have continued even during the ceasefire between Iran and the United States. But it's not just Iraqi Kurdistan being bombed. In fact, Iraq has a distinction of being the only country bombed by both sides in the conflict. This is in part because it's popular mobilization forces, sometimes referred to by the Arabic name Hashd al-Shabi, in Iraq, have strong ties to Iran. The popular mobilization forces, or PMF, if you're not familiar, were formed in 2014 and fought against the Islamic State in Iraq. But some factions within the PMF are also now

Starting point is 02:20:31 listed as terrorist groups themselves by the United States. I want to resist doing the rather purel, Sunni, Shia, Kurd analysis here because I don't think it explains a whole situation and is far too often seized upon by commentators seeking to oversimplify things. Many Kurds are Sunni, for example, but some are Shia. Some Kurds are Christian or Jewish or have no religious belief. There are other groups in the region who are not Muslim or Christian. I think it's unnecessarily reductionist, but nonetheless it is worth noting that the PMF are mostly Shia, as is the regime in Iran. The PMF have been using drones, rockets and mortars to attack both US bases and those of the Kurdish-Pesh Merger, who they see as tied to the US. On the telegram channels,

Starting point is 02:21:16 PMF groups have shown successful attacks of what used to be Camp Victory near the Baghdad airport and against the US embassy facilities. What we can talk to Rogulati groups and see PMF statements on telegram. Getting information on the conflict from inside Iran that's not regime propaganda is very hard. An internet blackout by the Iranian government has lasted more than a month. The information that we see coming out of Iran is either state sanctioned or from people going to the border with Iraq to get cell phone signal or from people using satellite internet

Starting point is 02:21:47 devices like Starlings. Iran has been actively hunting people. using starlings and further militarizing the Kurdistan region near the Iraqi border where people might get cell phone signal. Zani Abazizi and Siavan Amini, a Kurdish couple, were arrested on the 7th of March this year and they have been detained ever since for the crime of using a starlink. This repressive capability is not unusual or unique to Iranian Kurdistan. I think we need to understand the structure of the Iranian state to understand why it will be very hard for the United States to achieve regime change simply with an air campaign. Iran has a conventional

Starting point is 02:22:35 army known as the Arteche. It also has the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps, better known by their initials IRGC, which has a specific remit of protecting the Islamic Republic. Within the IRGC, people may have heard of the Quds Force. The Quds Force sort of acts like Iran's CIA and Green Berets combined by assisting other actors, mainly non-state actors in the region like Hizbollah, for example. Then there's also the besiege, which is an element of the IRGC, but is a paramilitary auxiliary force with as many as half a million members available for immediate call-up and many more in reserve. The besiege are in theory directly loyal to the supreme leader, and they have participated in significant oppression of the population. Combined, these forces represent

Starting point is 02:23:21 a massive apparatus for state violence that is dispersed among the civilian population. Recent reports say they are even garrishing schools and other civilian buildings. While the United States may, for example, have destroyed Iran's conventional navy, its big gray boats with the Iranian flag on it. It has not and cannot destroy all the small civilian craft that these groups could easily use to harass shipping or even plant sea mines, nor can destroy the many one-way surface drones Iran has along its coastline. If you're not familiar with these, think of a remote-controlled boat that explodes when it hits its target. Israel has killed many IRGC figures, but many more IRGC units and besieges remain untouched and willing to turn their weapons on any

Starting point is 02:24:10 potential uprising in the country. With this in mind, let's talk a little bit more about those peace negotiations that happened last weekend in Pakistan. And particularly, let's talk about the composition of Iran's delegation. Amongst Iran's negotiators was Mohammed Jafiri Saharad. who participated in the murder of Dr. Abdul Rahman Gassemlu during negotiations between the PDKI and Iran in 1989. Dr. Gassamlu had been a notable Kurdish leader for some time, was sentenced to death by the Iranian regime, and then killed when he came to the negotiating table.

Starting point is 02:24:48 In a statement sent to me, the P.A.K. said, quote, the composition of the Iranian delegation, largely made up of military insecurity figures, clearly indicates that the primary objective was not to advance a genuine diplomatic process, but rather to manage a situation in line with strategic goals. Iran seems to have chiefly seen negotiations as a way to buy time. It has been able to dig out many of its missiles which were buried but not destroyed by its strikes, and in this pause it can shore up its posture against domestic dissenters as well.

Starting point is 02:25:18 It does not seem, in short, to be acting in the way the shock and or doctrine might suggest and hope that it would. Indeed, in recent weeks it's been able to mobilize civilians to go to power plants in the hope that their presence will prevent bombing of those facilities. Despite this and despite it being a violation of various international treaties, some of which Israel is not signed up to, Israel has continued to hit power plants, oil infrastructure and bridges, despite the civilian costs. It certainly seems that after a weekend of negotiating face-to-face in Pakistan, the United States was not able to get what it wanted out of negotiations. They have chosen not to accept our terms, Vice President J.D. Varn said. Here's him talking about negotiations at a press conference on Sunday morning local time. But the simple fact is that we need to see an affirmative commitment that they will not seek a nuclear weapon

Starting point is 02:26:09 and they will not seek the tools that would enable them to quickly achieve a nuclear weapon. That is the core goal of the President of the United States and that's what we've tried to achieve through these negotiations. again, their nuclear programs, such as it is, the enrichment facilities that they've had before, they've been destroyed. But the simple question is, do we see a fundamental commitment of will for the Iranians not to develop a nuclear weapon, not just now, not just two years from now, but for the long term? We haven't seen that yet. We hope that we will. Trump, however, has been talking about a more diverse range of goals than Varns List here, talking about ending, quote, 47 years of experience.

Starting point is 02:26:48 extortion, corruption and death in one truth. This suggests regime change, which Trump then went on to falsely claim he has already achieved, saying in a truth, quote, however, now that we have complete and total regime change where different, smarter, and less radicalized minds prevail, maybe something revolutionarily wonderful can happen. Who knows? This was, incidentally, in the very same truth in which Trump said, quote, a whole civilization will die tonight, never to be born.

Starting point is 02:27:18 bought back again. I don't want that to happen, but it probably will. This was part of a threat which he hoped to result in Iran reopening the Strait of Hormuz. Trump also posted on Easter Sunday, quote, open the fucking straight, you crazy bastards, or you'll be living in hell. Obviously, this statement seems at odds with any idea of liberating the Iranian people and when it comes from the guy with a nuclear asshole, it sounds like a threat of genocide. While Trump has not launched any nuclear weapons at Iran. This does not mean that the death toll has not been heavy. According to a report by Human Rights Organization, Hengor, at least 7,650 people have been killed during the US and Israeli bombing, including 130 civilians. Iran has also continued attacking

Starting point is 02:28:04 its own population, despite the massive scale of the killing. Iran has not ceased, for example, executing political prisoners. Hengor estimates that at least 160 political prisoners have been killed in the first quarter of this year. United States troops have been killed as well, 13 of them, according to the military times. Hundreds more have been wounded. Survivors of one deadly drone attack on a US facility in Kuwait have disputed official accounts of the attack, saying their facility did have vertical blast barriers, but no overhead protection against the kind of drones that killed six of their colleagues and the kind of drones they could recently expect to be attacked by, given that Iran has been using these very same drones for a long time in Syria and other parts of the Middle East.

Starting point is 02:28:48 To quote CBS, who interviewed one of them on condition of anonymity, quote, painting a picture that one squeaked through is a falsehood. I want people to know the unit, and then there's an ellipses here where they've removed part of the quotation, was unprepared to provide any defense for itself. It was not a fortified position. So where are we now? While the US government continues to edit supercuts of bombs hitting buildings and vehicles to music likely does not have permission to use, families in the United States and Iran are both burying their loved ones.

Starting point is 02:29:21 Despite the ceasefire, the US and Iran are theoretically held to. There has been no ceasefire for the Kurds who are still being bombed, no ceasefire for Lebanon, where Israel is still carrying out a massive bombing campaign. And on day two of the USA's blockade of Iranian ports, traffic through the Strait of Hormuz remains in a single-digit of, single-digit numbers of ships. We have not achieved, and it seems that we likely will not achieve liberation for the people of Iran. In fact, it may be the case that the regime moves closer to the IRGC, becomes more hardline, more repressive, more violent. Just like in Caracas, the only thing the US seems interested in liberating is oil. Iran's nuclear threat remains like Schrodinger's cat,

Starting point is 02:30:03 a once terrible and non-existent, destroyed last year and the justification for thousands of deaths this year. As always, our solidarity should be with people and not with states. We can perfectly coherently hold that the people of Iran do not deserve to be killed by the US or their own government, and that what we want for them should be what we want for ourselves. Peace, freedom, and a beautiful life. Canadian women are looking for more. More to themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders, and the world are of them. And that's why we're thrilled to introduce the Honest Talk podcast. I'm Jennifer Stewart. And I'm Catherine. And in this podcast, we interview Canada's most inspiring women.

Starting point is 02:30:51 Entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, politicians, and newsmakers, all at different stages of their journey. So if you're looking to connect, then we hope you'll join us. Listen to the Honest Talk podcast and IHeartRadio or wherever you listen to your podcasts. There's two golden rules that any man should live by. Rule one, never mess with a country girl. You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes. And rule two, never. mess with her friends either.

Starting point is 02:31:22 We always say that, trust your girlfriends. I'm Anna Sinfield, and in this new season of the girlfriends, oh my God, this is the same man. A group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist. I felt like I got hit by a truck. I thought, how could this happen to me? The cops didn't seem to care, so they take matters into their own hands. I said, oh, hell no.

Starting point is 02:31:46 I vowed. I will be his last target. He's going to get what he did. deserves. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Nora Jones, and I love playing music with people so much that my podcast called Playing Along is back.

Starting point is 02:32:11 I sit down with musicians from all musical styles to play songs together in an intimate setting. Every episode's a little different, but it all involves music and conversation with some of my favorite musicians. Over the past two seasons, I've had special guests like Dave Grohl, Leveh, Mavis Staples, Remy Wolf, Jeff Tweedy, really too many to name. And this season, I've sat down with Alessia Cara, Sarah McLaughlin, John Legend, and more. Check out my new episode with Josh Grobin.

Starting point is 02:32:39 You related to the Phantom at that point. Yeah, I was definitely the Phantom in that. That's so funny. Share each day with me each night, each morning. So come hang out with us in the studio and listen to Playing Along on the Iheart Radio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, former bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story.

Starting point is 02:33:19 This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Sondes, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Sunlight's the greatest disinfected. They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing.

Starting point is 02:33:42 Greg Lesbian. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Americopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona.

Starting point is 02:34:07 Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is It Could Happen Here, Executive Disorder, our weekly newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world, and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. Today I'm joined by James Stout, Mia Wong, and Robert. Evans. Yes, happy to be back once again stretching the definitions of the word here. Across time, space, and the internet, we have gathered to discuss the news. And this episode, we are covering the week of April 8th to April 16th. James, do you want to start us off with some short news items? Yep. I got quite a few this week, so lock in. There have been two Turkish

Starting point is 02:34:57 school shootings this week. One killed 10 people. The other wounded at least 16. Since then, there have been 162 arrests for either sharing footage of the shooting or suggesting that similar attacks might happen at other schools. One suspect, according to BBC, made references to US mass killer Elliot Roger on his WhatsApp profile, which, yep, not great. Just a reminder. Yeah, I do find it somewhat frustrating when people say this stuff only happened in the United States. No, no, it doesn't. Now, it is a fair point to note that, like, most foreign mass shootings these days

Starting point is 02:35:36 are inspired and influenced by American mass shootings. We are foundational to global shooter culture, but it ain't just us. Yeah, it's not just us. And unfortunately, the culture is global, and this is part of that. We also have, like, your regular terrorism, but this is not that. This is part of that culture. Secondly, Southcom. the United States Military Command responsible for, among other things, the Eastern Pacific, as it calls it,

Starting point is 02:36:07 has announced four strikes on small boats again this week, killing at least 11 people, according to the totals I added up from their announcements. It's probably worth noting that this either suggests that they are not striking drugboats or that their strikes on drugboats are so spectacularly unsuccessful that they are still coming across in such volumes that Southcom is having to kill people at this continuing rate, right? Either way, it doesn't point to a successful operation. Next, the Nigerian military seems to have doubled down on its strike in Julie.

Starting point is 02:36:45 If people haven't been paying attention to this, Julie is a place where a market was bombed. They claim that the market contained Boko Haram fighters. More than 100 people were killed in this strike. And I want to mention what happened recently at Gilly to tell them that now our new strategy is, anybody, a friend of a thief is a thief, I've said that severely. Anybody that is doing any trading, any support to them,

Starting point is 02:37:08 we find you together with them, we're going to deal with you like the bandit, like the terrorists. So people should know, if you don't want to be harmed, please avoid where those terrorists are and going to give them any support. The suggestion here is that being present in a market where these people who are terrorists who are also present, justifies targeting them. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:37:27 It's worth noting the US has been supporting this campaign, right? And this is not the first incident in which civilians have been killed. I've written about this in my newsletter. An appeals court in the D.C. circuit has prevented Judge Bozberg from continuing an investigation into whether Trump officials sent migrants to El Salvador despite his order. D.C. Judge Rao wrote, the government has a clear and indisputable right to termination of this judicial investigation because it is premise on an order that is insufficiently clear and specific to sustain a charge of criminal contempt.

Starting point is 02:38:00 A long-time court interpreter, the only one for several South Asian languages in Texas, has been detained by ICE in airport. She has withholding of removal to India, but with third country removals now increasingly on the table, that is presumably what they intend for her. Finally, in court news, another DOJ attorney has been fine for missing deadlines in a habeas case. And once again, that attorney cited a crushing caseload is the reason why they'd missed those deadlines. This week, both the House and the Senate failed to advance a war powers resolution, compelling the President to cease military action in Iran. The House vote in particular was very close, with 213 votes to 214.

Starting point is 02:38:48 with only one Democrat, Jared Golden, voting against it, while one Republican, Thomas Massey, voted in support. On Monday, the Trump administration agreed to restore the pride flag to the Stonewall National Monument as a part of settling a lawsuit over its removal. This weekend, President Trump got into a fight with the Pope over his statements against the U.S. and Israel's war in the Middle East. The President truce that the Pope was, quote, weak on crime and terrible for, foreign policy, unquote, before sharing an AI image of himself depicted as Jesus Christ. The next day, Trump claimed, quote, I thought it was me as a doctor, unquote. Great stuff. Great stuff. Just to briefly fact check, he is neither of those things. No, as far as I'm aware.

Starting point is 02:39:39 Jesus or a doctor. Yeah, yeah. Legally. I think it is notable and very funny that this has now shifted a sniff, no, I'm not a significant, but it's shifted a discourse on the right to whether or not Trump is the Antichrist with an enemy of the show Rob Dreher saying, quote, he's giving off Antichrist energy. So incredible things are happening for Donald Trump among his nominal base. Meanwhile, Franklin Graham thinks it was an honest mistake. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure he does. Yeah. On Wednesday, police responded to a bomb threat at the Illinois home of one of Pope Leo's brothers, about 40 miles southwest of Chicago. No explosive was found. So Congress is in the process of deciding whether or not to reauthorize Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act or FISA. It's going to sunset on April 20. We're recording this on the 16th. So in four days, if Congress does not reauthorize it, Section 02 is what lets intelligence agencies in the U.S. collect email, phone, text communications from

Starting point is 02:40:50 foreign nationals outside of the United States, which often leads to communications of American citizens being caught for obvious reasons, right, as well. They get kind of swept up in that big net. The FBI once has asked for and has gotten some permission to, like, look into that database to get information on American citizens. Congress put some limitations on that in 2024, but it remains very controversial. And basically, like, one of the big debates over this is, and there was a vote in 24 as to whether or not to require intelligence agencies to get a warrant for accessing American's communications. And that failed to pass by a single vote in the House, 12 to 12 split in 2024. So right now, you know, there's both the question of, is this going to get reauthorized by Congress,

Starting point is 02:41:36 in which case is, like, the FBI is certainly going to use it to go after, like, the communications of quote unquote Antifa, right, of like people who have been caught because they've been naming foreign groups, anti-fascist groups, like foreign terrorist organizations. That's very obviously, like one of the things this is going to be used for. It's kind of unclear like what is going to happen here, where Congress is going to land. I did find there's an interesting article in just security where they're very worried that because of how very obvious it is that federal law enforcement will abuse this, section 702 will just kind of go away entirely and the useful aspects of it as they see it will no longer be possible.

Starting point is 02:42:20 That's not my primary concern. It's interesting to read someone being like, oh, my God, if these guys go so crazy, like, if they keep refusing to, like, allow warrants to be entered into the process and keep insisting on going after, like, anti-fat, like, left-wing domestic terrorists, they're going to lose our ability to, like, surveil foreign nationals entirely is kind of the concern from a lot of security people. Anyway, just probably good that you're aware of that. So probably the biggest international piece of news this week that we're covering is the defeat of Victor Orban, who was often considered to be like a quasi-dictatorial figure. I mean, he arose to power in Hungary legally. But his party, like as soon as he took power more than a decade ago, he's basically been cracking down on the ability of counterparties to like, organize. There's been like massive crackdowns on the like ability of like it's a lot of prototype Trump stuff. Like they went after professors. They went after colleges. They went after like public funds

Starting point is 02:43:23 to educational institutions to libraries. He'd be pioneered the modern tactics of undermining liberal democracy via the legal system. Yes. Yes. Like him and Erdogan sort of like two. Yeah. He went after the LGBT community, um, tried to criminalize like criminalize like pride of and stuff. And also, like, and a big part of, like, Orban was obviously very anti-migrant. Like, anti, we don't want to take in, you know, particularly during the Syrian refugee crisis. That was like a big moment for them. But he was also really anti-EU. You know, Hungary is a part of the EU, but Orban's party was very, like the Fidesz party was super EU critical. And in the last decade and change that they've been in power, the Fidesz party has been.

Starting point is 02:44:11 massively corrupt and in fact has kind of turned the Hungarian government to the extent like, you know, there was corruption before obviously, but he's woven his party into the very workings of the government primarily as a way to collect money from people and to distribute government funds to like these right wing pet projects that they had, which I'll talk about a little more in a second. But this started to piss people off in Hungary, particularly because the government wasn't doing a good job of governing, like the Hungarian economy, remained one of the worst in Europe. Unemployment remained high. Like, none of the promises that, like, well, if we're, if we kind of push the EU away and if we keep all, if we keep these migrants out,

Starting point is 02:44:54 the economy will get better. What really happened was Fidesz robbed everyone blind. And Orban robbed everyone blind and put his cronies in positions of power in the hope that he would never be forced out. Now, Orban's an interesting figure, in part because he got his start as a pro-democracy figure during the latter years of communism in Hungary, he was a liberal, like, democratic activist. And in fact, the guy who just beat him, Peter Magyar, we'll talk about his name also in a second, grew up with like a poster of Orban on his like bedroom wall because Orban, you know, again, communism was coming to an end. Everyone was very excited.

Starting point is 02:45:32 All the young people were very excited about democracy. And Orban was like a figure. And he was still, he was never like a leftist figure when I say liberal, but he was a figure of like democratizing values. Now, Magyar himself is an odd guy. He's 45 years old. And the party that he ran with, the TISA party, T-I-S-Z-A, was a party before him, but like not a living one, really. Like, it had been a political party and it had basically died out to irrelevance. I think they had a couple of dudes kind of kicking around. It's almost like if there were still a tiny wig party that, like four or five guys met in like twice a year to like have their little wig meeting.

Starting point is 02:46:14 Yeah, the bull loose party coming back. Some guy who's like a Barack Obama level political mind in terms of his skill in organizing and charisma came in and turned that party into a fucking electoral powerhouse that completely annihilated the previous leading party in an election. Like that's basically what happened in Hungary. it's a very weird story. And Magyar is definitely brilliant in terms of he is someone who is objectively very intelligent when it comes to how to build power in a political organization and how to win elections

Starting point is 02:46:55 and how to message to people. He's very good at all of that stuff. Now, this is not like a leftist or a progressive like hero type figure. And he is not pretended to be, to be very clear. That's not how he built himself at all. fact, in some ways, he's more conservative than Orban. His party, the Tizza party is like even like, Orban at least had like a guest worker program and stuff.

Starting point is 02:47:18 And Madgar's against even a lot of that stuff. Like he is actually more hostile to having like, like immigration. But he's not anti-EU. And he's not what's interesting is like he's really kind of hedging in between like hedging his, I don't know entirely how to describe this. He's like writing a very weird lie. because he is not anti-Ukraine, but he's also against Hungary sending weapons aid

Starting point is 02:47:43 directly to Ukraine. But his old attitude is like, I'm not super pro what you guys are doing, but I'm not going to fight anything in the EU parliament. Hungary's going to stop. Hungary has been like a spoiler in EU politics for a while where they would just kind of vote to fuck with whatever their EU wants to do,

Starting point is 02:48:01 especially with regards aiding Ukraine. And Magyar's whole thing is like, I'm just going to stop. Like I'm not going to full-throatedly support this stuff. you guys want, I'm just going to stop being an anchor weighing you down, which is enough, like, for the EU to be excited about this. Like, finally, this guy, Hungary's not going to be, and Hungary is a weird history of, of acting like an anchor on other polities sometimes.

Starting point is 02:48:25 That's kind of what was going on in the Austro-Hungarian Empire in like the pre-World War I era where Hungary saw itself as very separate from the Austria-Hungary aspect of things and would vote to like, fuck with the military because they wanted their own military to get more powerful. It's not entirely the same. It's just interesting, the level of, like, contrarianness that's kind of baked into a lot of Hungarian politics. I mentioned something about Peter's name. So the Magyars are, like, the original, like, nomadic horse warrior people of the area we know is Hungary today. The name Magyar just means Hungarian now, but it came from most powerful of these, like, tribes of nomadic warriors.

Starting point is 02:49:06 And someone had made a point of this on, I was either Twitter or blue sky around the election that like Peter Magyar is basically if a guy was named Johnny American, right? Like that's like literally like his name could not be more patriotic. Yeah. Yeah. It's like Adolf Hitler defeated by a man of Germany. And Magyar became a force on the political stage in Hungary very suddenly. He wasn't really a major figure.

Starting point is 02:49:30 He was kind of actually connected to a lot of because, again, he was a supporter. of the Fidesz party. He had a lot of friends who were members of Orban's government. One of his buddies was Orban's chief of staff. In 2006, he married a woman, Judite Varga, who was the minister of justice for the Fidesz party under Orban, right? And he'd worked as like a diplomat in Brussels. So he's like a guy who's part of this government apparatus that Orban puts into place. But in 2024, there's this huge scandal where the Ministry of Justice and like his wife, which I mean his, well, now his ex-wife because they split and then his ex-wife pardons a man who had gotten convicted for covering up a sex abuse scandal at a children's home and Magyar becomes like one of the most visible

Starting point is 02:50:15 figures on the backlash being like this entire party is corrupt this is super fucked up and he's coming from a position of it and I was a part of it so I know like I'm an insider who's broken from the group because of how corrupt and bad this is and there's some messed up stuff in there Magyre does attack Orban and Fidesz because his ex-wife gets fired along with another woman when this scandal becomes a problem. And he accuses the government of like hiding behind women's skirts. But he's also got he's an odd per. There's some uncomfortable, not in not damning anything, just some like uncomfortable realities about him. And I want to read a quote from an NPR article that came out recently.

Starting point is 02:51:01 that talks about some of this. Maggar has blamed the end of his marriage to Varga, at least in part on political disagreements. Notably, just months before the divorce was finalized in 2023, he secretly recorded one of their conversations. In it, Varga was talking about an attempt by government aides to interfere in a corruption case. Maggar released a recording in the wake of the pardon scandal the following year,

Starting point is 02:51:20 which only added fuel to the fire and credence to his corruption claims. And his wife resigns from public life altogether after this. She has accused him of verbal and physical abuse, including like locking her in a room. And obviously like the whole recording account, there's a lot of, there's some uncomfortable stuff about this guy. But that said,

Starting point is 02:51:39 she's also super corrupt and like doing a lot of really, so I don't know. And no one really does. If you read a lot about this guy, one of the things people point is that we don't actually know a lot about him other than he's really good

Starting point is 02:51:52 at whipping a party into shape and winning an election, right? Like he proved that much. But we don't know much about him. Even Orban has made anti- LGBT rights, a big part of his platform, especially as his position has gotten weaker. He's tried to, like, supercharge that as a way to hold on to power. Maggar's not pro-queer rights, but he's not anti-queer rights.

Starting point is 02:52:18 He has criticized the Orban government from going after LGBTQ people and says that they're doing it to distract citizens from the issues, which is true. He said that he supports the right to assembly. he has not said that he supports LGBTQ rights. That said, if going from a guy who's like, I actively want to prosecute people for being queer to a guy who's like, I just don't want to talk about it, is probably an improvement.

Starting point is 02:52:42 It's worth noting that in his victory speech, he did make two references to LGBTQ rights, saying that, quote, everyone can live with whoever they love as long as they do not violate laws or harm others. And also said, quote, We want to make a country where no one is persecuted because they think differently or because someone loves in a different way to others, unquote. This is, again, broadly a really good thing.

Starting point is 02:53:11 And it's also good. It's good in Hungary. It's also good worldwide because Hungary has been for years not a major supporter of far-right groups. One of the things Magyar pointed out as soon as he won election is that there's evidence that they have found that, the Fidesz party was using Hungarian governmental funds to support a couple of, number one,

Starting point is 02:53:36 to support CPAC, because they hold like a foreign CPAC gatherings in Hungary. So like CPAC has been getting money from the Hungarian government. And Maguire said like, that's not fine. We're not okay with that. I think that's actually illegal.

Starting point is 02:53:52 And he has also noted that that government money was going to support the Matthias Corvinus college or MCC, which was receiving funds from the Orban government, and that that is going to stop. Now, the MCC is both like it's an organization in Hungary, but they also have a bunch of foreign. They've got one in like Romania. There's one in Brussels. They have like a bunch of foreign branches. And they use the MCC and fund it in order to fund the far right in other European countries, right? Like the MCC supports, like the one in Brussels supports in Brussels local

Starting point is 02:54:25 far-right groups. And it's been a fairly effective way of funding some of these, like, and oftentimes like Nazi-adjacent organizations. And that money is looking to go away. And there's an interesting Politico article about some of this that talk to the MCC Brussels people, like the offshoot of this in Brussels. For its part, MCC Brussels said that Sunday's election result will have no bearing on its work in the city. As an independent organization, we will continue to research, analyze, and advocate around our core concerns and continue to hold the European and union institutions to account. That's the communications manager.

Starting point is 02:54:59 And the article goes on to note, MCC Brussels gets almost all its cash, 99% coming to just over 6 million euros, according to its listing in the last financial year, as part of a grant from Matthias Corvinus Collegium, which received a 10% stake in Hungary's lucrative oil and gas company,

Starting point is 02:55:14 MOL from Orban's government in 2020. That's certainly going away too. This is a major blow to far-right organizing in Europe and in the United States. And it's more than just losing money, losing a space to gather. It's losing a proof of concept, right? Orban was the guy they pointed to is like,

Starting point is 02:55:31 this is what we want to do in America, not just America, but very directly. And Orban just flamed the fuck out because he sucked at governing. Now, what happens next is going to depend on whether or not Magyar prosecutes Fides' party members, prosecutes Orban and his cronies. He said he's going to. So we'll see. And that's all I got to say for now.

Starting point is 02:55:51 Yeah. I think it's worth noting that, like, in Europe, we had this somewhat with Donald Tusk in Poland, right? And what we have seen there, for instance, on immigration has been a continued movement to the right, right? Like Tusk has been like talking about not complying with EU immigration rulings. And I think that's probably something that people who are interested in which way this might go should look at, but that doesn't mean that it's a bad thing that Orban is out. No.

Starting point is 02:56:22 that Orban conceded, right? Like he had multiple U.S. politicians, including the vice president campaigning for him. And he lost and he admitted he lost. And that is a very good sign. Part of why he conceded is he thinks that he's got enough people woven into the government that he can return to power, or at least his party can.

Starting point is 02:56:44 So, again, Maguire's big challenge is going to be making sure that doesn't happen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And whatever else, I think, very, very unlikely that Magyar is going to be doing shit. Like, hey, we're going to use face, we're going to threaten to use facial recognition on everyone who shows up to a pride protest and a pride march and arrest them.

Starting point is 02:57:02 So, you know, hopefully getting better. Yeah. Although, again, he was willing to wiretap his wife. But you're right. He does not seem. There's no evidence that he takes, like, pleasure in fucking with people. Like, that doesn't seem to be his vibe. So hopefully not.

Starting point is 02:57:21 Yeah. All right, should we take a break? We shall. All right. Then we will be back for more news. So one of the other pieces of news coming out of the right-wing sphere is this really incredibly staged photo op that Donald Trump had where he, like, got this really well photographed, like, fake DoorDash order and then tip the woman $100. That was supposed to be a promotion for his no taps on tips. thing. There's a lot of stuff going on here. There's been a whole bunch of stuff because people

Starting point is 02:58:08 immediately figured out that this person is someone who's been basically used to lobby for this policy a bunch. She shows up all over the place, like testifying in front of congressional committees and stuff about no tax for tips of like or Lincoln legislatures all over the country. There's a whole bunch of kind of funny stuff where she gets asked if she would vote for Trump and whether she supports trans athletes and she's just like, uh. There's also a whole story about sort of DoorDash's PR person just having a crash out and getting extremely mad online. No, Mia, don't put it in the newspaper that they got mad. It's really amazing.

Starting point is 02:58:47 But I think the actual story here is about no tax on tips as a political project. And I think the actual most egregious part of this whole event was the White House, they operate like 55. Twitter accounts. One of them, the Guardian points out as this like rapid response thing. Yeah. And it posts this video where that's captioned about how this woman said she saved $11,000 in

Starting point is 02:59:14 taxes on tips. That's not true. It can't be true. It's just mathematically a lie. The actual policy and the Guardian's doing some good work on this lays out, quote, but the no tax on tips policy is

Starting point is 02:59:30 only a temporary deduction of up to $25,000 in tips for eligible workers annually. Tipped workers still have to report their tips as income. So there's a lot of things going on here. One, this is all, all of the tax on tips stuff is temporary. We talked about this when it came out. It was designed to sort of phase out the moment Trump leaves office or supposed to leave office. And B, Dordash also later had to say, oh, no, no, no, no, she did not save $11,000 in tax money on tips.

Starting point is 03:00:01 they were like, no, no, no, she made $11,000 in tips and didn't have to pay taxes on it. But first off, she did not make $11,000 on tips. Like, you can't make $11,000 in tips doing DoorDash delivery. It's basically impossible. And I'm very sure that she didn't do this because, also, if you look at in the Guardian with you, or not the Guardian, Inc with you some of the earlier interviews,

Starting point is 03:00:25 because she's been on a PR circuit about this for a while. She was on Fox News. and on Fox News, she claims that she'd saved $3,000 to $4,000, and that eventually the amount of money that she'd saved eventually gets bumped up to $11,000. I think that what happened is that she maybe got, she's claiming originally that she got like $3,000 in tips.

Starting point is 03:00:47 There's also another issue here, which is that like $11,000, it's like not clear if that's even enough money to qualify as having to pay income taxes in Alaska. Like, this is all basically just a nightmare. But the reason this is all actually happening is that the no tax on tips thing is this giant PR campaign that DoorDash, particularly DoorDash, but also some of the other companies have been doing as basically a propaganda thing in order to avoid their being attention on the fact that they just don't pay their workers a living wage. And so one of the really important things that's almost never talked about with DoorDash and with all of these sort of. of these delivery apps, right, is that if you are a restaurant worker and you're making something for a DoorDash order, and this is particularly like, you know, for example, if you work

Starting point is 03:01:38 at a coffee shop, right, you don't get tips on DoorDash orders. So when these things, when these orders started coming through in like sort of the past like five, six, like eight years, right, what happened was that this was basically a giant, everyone who's working like in a restaurant or in a, in like a cafe or whatever you're getting it from, those people all had massive speedups where they just don't get, and they don't get paid the regular tips that they would, you know, be relying on to even sort of have a living wage, right? So these people all got speed ups.

Starting point is 03:02:12 And then on top of that, right, so you are, if you're ordering from one of these sites, right, you're probably are paying a tip. But that tip money has basically been, you know, it's been extracted from the restaurant workers, but then now it's being used as a way to subsidize, right? as a way to subsidize DoorDash not paying actual fucking wages. And so what this entire project is,

Starting point is 03:02:35 is this giant attempt to basically continue this process and solidify this process and stop all of the organizing campaigns that have been happening against DoorDash to get them to actually fucking pay people. And what's happening instead is that they're trying to shift everyone's focus to like, oh, hey, we can give you like no tax on tips, even though what these tips are and what the system that they've built is,

Starting point is 03:02:58 is a system to basically exploit both restaurant workers and also specifically to make sure they don't ever have to fucking pay their workers any amount of money. And that's the actual, that's the actual political ramifications of what's happening here beyond Guy has funny crash out in social media

Starting point is 03:03:18 and I think it's very bleak that there's been basically no coverage of the sort of totality of what this is doing to people. to circle back to the potentiality of the new Prime Minister of Hungary prosecuting the former corrupt administration. Let's turn to California. The former frontrunner in the California governor's race, Eric Swalwell, dropped out of the election last week and subsequently resigned from Congress amid sexual assault allegations from multiple women. The new frontrunner is billionaire Tom Steyer, who ran for president back in 2020.

Starting point is 03:03:57 You might remember him from the yeah good okay clip of where he tried to talk to Bernie Sanders as Bernie and Elizabeth Warren were beefing on stage after a presidential debate. Is he the guy who had that story about killing someone in Vietnam? Or was that another one of the unhinged guys? Steyer wasn't super unhinged. He was a little bit boring. But nominally one of the more progressive people in that overstuffed race, despite being a billionaire.

Starting point is 03:04:28 A lot of his poll is talking about we should tax billionaires like me more. I know I'm a billionaire. I'll be fine. That's kind of his, that's kind of part of his stick. My opinion is as a former Californian and just someone who's voted in California, in the long grand history of California governors, he would be one of the better options that California is a fat. Which is a low bar.

Starting point is 03:04:54 Yeah. Really low bar. Yeah. And the race this year is just shite. It's, again, like, Arnold Schwarzenegger was the governor. And, like, firmly middle of the pack. It's absolute bollocks now. Like, sorry, I know I'm saying very British words, but it is upsetting to me.

Starting point is 03:05:13 It is funny to describe the California governor's racist bollocks. It's bollocks. It's been many times. I have to live here. I have to pay taxes to these clowns. I mean, it's California, baby. like you're going to periodically have governor races that are just like shit shows largely to provide content for the media. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:05:35 Yeah. Now, this week, Steyer released part of his immigration platform titled How California Can Put Ice in Jail? Echoing cries that activists have been trying to circulate into popular consciousness for the past year. Now, Steyer doesn't just advocate for ICE to be a bomb. which he does, but says in this new platform released on Substack, quote, it's not enough for Democrats to simply engage in rhetoric and, quote, quote, stand against ICE or Trump. California must build a system that fights fire with fire. To stop this authoritarian takeover, we must counter ICE head on and go after both their agents on the

Starting point is 03:06:18 streets and their leadership within the DHS. How do we do this? The same way we took on the mob, put ICE agents and their leadership in jail for their crimes, because that's how you take on a violent extremist group and win, unquote. Steyer promises to do five things as governor to build this strategy to take on ice. First, passing aggressive legislation, building on current California statutes to outlaw any law enforcement agency from profiling based on race, ethnicity, language, occupation, or location. This directly takes on the Kavanaugh stops, which were approved last fall. And a lot of other Supreme Court decisions

Starting point is 03:06:59 that, for instance, Border Patrol operates under. Then, Steyer says he'll grant the state attorney general authority to hold ICE's leadership accountable for violence by pursuing quote-unquote supervisory liability. Steyer writes that, quote, this body of law empowers the California justice system to criminally prosecute and imprison, not just the ICE agents who are committing these criminal.

Starting point is 03:07:24 crimes, but the leadership directing them to do so, unquote. Steyer promises to appoint and fund a special investigative unit that's specifically tasked with enforcing these California laws, quote, including laws related to the conditions at detention facilities. This unit will collect the evidence the attorney general can use to prosecute offenders and their leadership, unquote. That's how he plans to take on ICE and leadership at the DHS. and to prosecute crimes committed by ICE agents.

Starting point is 03:07:57 Now, Steyer also says that he will, quote, bring those detained and kidnapped by ICE back home, unquote, by expanding the immigration legal defense infrastructure in the state of California, including funding for, quote, more attorneys, investigators, and accredited representatives, as well as legal aid and law school programs to assist and help those who have been imprisoned

Starting point is 03:08:20 without due process, unquote. This is the one last, Like, that I like, there are counties in California that fund, that we had an episode about this about two years ago, right, that will fund legal defense for migrants. Traditionally, this has been, ICE works around this by moving people who have that legal representation out of the state as quickly as they can and then refusing or making it very hard for WebEx motions for their attorneys to attend their hearings remotely. and what that does is effectively like bleeds the program, right?

Starting point is 03:08:56 Because then this attorney has to fly to Texas for a 15-minute hearing about rescheduling or something similar. I would need to, there's a lot of other stuff here, like law school programs. That's interesting. I don't know what those would be. There needs to be something that stops them doing that. Because that is what they did under Biden too.

Starting point is 03:09:19 This is not a Trump era thing. this is very much something that happened under Biden. And it will happen again. If the state of California does this on a statewide level, I would imagine, I would imagine, especially like, let's entertain the idea that we have an election in 2028, that we have a Democrat president, ICE still has a massively expanded detention capacity.

Starting point is 03:09:44 It could very easily move people out of California very quickly. Yeah. And so we need, like, there need to be awareness of that. I would also say that, like, one of the tools that I don't see mentioned here that I think should be mentioned is SB 54 in California. SB 54, obviously there are different SB 54, but I'm talking about the California Values Act here. The one that prohibits law enforcement cooperation, except for search and exemptions with immigration authorities. That already exists. It's already there.

Starting point is 03:10:14 And, like, this is, his statement's pretty brief, right? His PDF's only three pages. It might not go into all this detail. I would like to see that flag, at least in further detail or when he's speaking about this, right? Because SB 54 prosecutions of cops are important, right? Because there are California agencies which appear to be flouting California law in order to comply with Trump's immigration goals. And if we don't do that first, then I have a lot less faith that any of this other shit is going to matter. Yeah, I mean, obviously funding legal representation for immigrants regardless, like, is a good thing.

Starting point is 03:10:54 Yeah. But it could, but the effect that it could have could be curtailed by ICE. And as James has said, by moving people quickly out of state. And it's unclear if Steyer is also talking about trying to help residents of California. Is it people who reside in California and have been taken by ICE? people who are in ICE detention in California. In California, yeah. Like, those are different categories, right?

Starting point is 03:11:22 Like, anyone or other people in immigration detention broadly in California to include anyone who would cross the southern border and then be detained, right? Like, this is all stuff that I'd like to see fleshed out. Maybe it will be. I am going to email his office and ask some of these questions. The last thing that Steyer has in this five list of promises is promise to launch a statewide know your rights, public education and public awareness campaign. and Steyer writes, quote,

Starting point is 03:11:48 backed by expanded protections against racial profiling, legal representation empowers detained individuals to report ISIS crimes to the special investigator and California's Attorney General and take the agents to court, unquote. So he sees all these things

Starting point is 03:12:03 like working in conjunction together to prosecute ICE agents and give immigrants legal representation so that the investigative unit can be aware of certain crimes. by ICE agents. It's the most that I've seen any politician, like, put down as, like, an actual plan to go after ice.

Starting point is 03:12:26 Some other people have employed this sort of rhetoric, but in terms of actually producing a plan to go about this, this is the most detail that I've seen. And as James said, it'll be good to learn more about how he envisions this actually going into effect and those certain details that it would be nice to have more. detail on. But as rhetoric and as an actual policy proposal, this is like the most advanced thing I've seen on

Starting point is 03:12:52 actually trying to prosecute ICE and DHS. All right. So let's talk a little bit more about immigration things around the topic. First and foremost in this, what I want to talk about is this court filing by the ACLU and associated groups

Starting point is 03:13:09 pertaining to the South Florida soft-sided facility, South, aka Alligator Alcatraz. us, right? The court filing has some really disturbing stuff, and it basically details what they claim to be the continued abuse of detainees despite a court order that should have prohibited some of this, or prevented it rather. In their filing, they all led to the attorneys were prevented from meeting with their clients, forced to make appointments, and we've seen some reporting on the physical abuse. I have not seen as much discussion of this, which I think is extremely concerning.

Starting point is 03:13:41 attorneys have been asked to submit copies of legal documents that they are bringing to go over with their clients, right? This would be a very clear violation of their attorney-client privilege, right, that those communications should be private between the attorney and the client. The facility denied detainees access to phones. This was part of the previous court order. They were to have access to phones and communications with their attorneys, as well as some other stuff. they had to be advised of their rights, posters explaining some of this stuff. This resulted in demands and the parts of the detainees to restore their access to phones. I want to quote at length from the filing here just so I don't make any false representations.

Starting point is 03:14:25 Quote, after not having access to phone calls all day, people in their cages were getting frustrated with the situation, as these phone calls are the only way people can contact loved ones or speak with and secure an attorney. Detained individuals in Mr. Morphy and Mr. Hernandez-Galban's cage began complaining loudly about the phones not working. Mr. Morphy and Mr. Hernandez-Galban both reported that several guards who worked for CRS, as an entity managing the facility, came to the cage and were taunting the detained individuals inside. Detained individuals began raising their voices in protests. The guards got more aggressive and were yelling and threatening to enter the cage.

Starting point is 03:15:02 Mr. Hernandez-Galban went to the guards to try and de-esperate the situation and advised the guards not to enter the cage at that time, fearing it would leave. to violence. Mr. Morphy and Mr. Hernandez Galban both reported that another detained individual then went to the guards and an officer punched that person. Then the officers targeted Mr. Morphy. Neither Mr. Morphy nor Mr. Hernandez Galban know why they targeted Mr. Morphy. The guards threw Mr. Morphy to the ground and severely beat him up.

Starting point is 03:15:32 An officer came in and punched Mr. Morphy in his right eye and began to beat him. He was taken out the cage and thrown to the ground and beaten him. by multiple guards. He suffered injuries to his shoulder, an arm and was kicked in the head. A guard placed their knee on his neck when the guard was trying to restrain him. Mr. Morphy does not know which guards are involved as they do not wear ID badges, but he believes he would recognize them. The officers beat several other people during this incident and broke another detained individual's wrist. The officers then pepper sprayed everyone in the cage. A detained older gentleman passed out as he could not breathe.

Starting point is 03:16:09 that's pretty horrific. Like, this is just one day in one detention center. That's exactly what I was going to say. This is one cage on one day in one facility. And like if these people had not been brave enough to speak out, then we wouldn't know. Or if these people had been deported before they could speak out,

Starting point is 03:16:32 we wouldn't know, right? They didn't even have telephones to report this. If they hadn't had attorneys, we wouldn't know. yeah, this is an insight into what's happening in this facility, and it is horrific. There are images that go with this. If people want to look them up, you can see some very clearly injured people. You can see at least one very clearly injured person. Let's go on an ad break and then talk about Iran and some all the top cocktails.

Starting point is 03:17:00 All right. We are back. And in our final segment of today's show, we're going to talk about the ongoing war with Iran. This past weekend, J.D. Vance and Jared Kushner as well as Steve Wickoff, master negotiator, a guy who doesn't know the difference between a tweet that is public and a DM that is private. It's incredible. They flew to meet an Iranian delegation in Pakistan, which serves to mediate and host ceasefire talks between the United States and Iran. Ultimately, this did not result in an enduring agreement between the U.S. and Iran.

Starting point is 03:17:47 and as a result, the United States has begun blockading Iranian ports. So far, several vessels have been turned around by the U.S. blockade, and at least one that tried to run it was eventually turned back, even though it attempted to hug the Iranian coastline in order to avoid consequences. The U.S. Navy has also issued instructions, which seem to suggest that it could target shadow fleet vessels globally as part of the blockade if they're carrying a number of contraband items, which includes basically Iranian oil, all its derivatives, weapons, some metals and industrial supplies. It's a very broad list of contraband.

Starting point is 03:18:28 In the 13 claims instances of ships being turned around so far, I have not seen any in which there was a physical interdiction. It seems that the United States ships contacted them by radio, advising them of the blockade. The blockade has not currently seen. stopped some types of cargoes entering Iran. The notice to mariners suggest that humanitarian supplies can enter, but those vessels are subject to inspection. If this causes a cooling effect or just a reduction in the ability of Iran to bring in more food, this could cause serious food shortages. There's already been massive food price inflation since the war began, and Iran had previously tried to.

Starting point is 03:19:13 to work around this, but a complete blockade would make that harder. It does seem that negotiations between the US and Iran are ongoing. We're recording this on Thursday, and the latest thing that I had seen has suggested that Iran is saying it might allow traffic through the strait if its assets are unfrozen. This hinges on the idea that Iran gets to decide who goes through the strait, right? the strait is wider than 12 miles is generally the territorial waters, right? So it is international waters. So the idea that Iran controls it, if the US signs some kind of deal which implies or outright says that,

Starting point is 03:19:57 would be a massive victory for Iran, right, at least in that area. Meanwhile, the United States is amassing a massive naval force in the region with three carrier-strike groups either there or heading there. that is approximately 40% of the U.S.A.'s Navy. Interestingly, the George H.W. Bush is going around Africa to get there. The ship, not the man. That's correct. George H.W. Bush himself is swimming. He's got a wet suit. No. Yes, the United States ship, George H. W. Bush, is going around the southern tip of Africa. Geography understanders will notice that that is the long way.

Starting point is 03:20:39 the short way would be through the Suez Canal, right? Oh, no, they're doing the Russia, the Russo-Japanese War thing. It always goes great for the imperial power. Moving the ship around. I'm guessing they're doing it because they don't want to get hit by Yemeni groups, right? Going through the Red Sea, and that seems to be the only explanation I can think of. Two Avenger class, mine countermead ships also left Singapore. They will also likely be headed to the region.

Starting point is 03:21:09 right for demining the straight. Yeah. Meanwhile, it's worth noting that this ceasefire has not been universal, right? Bombing has not ceased in Kurdistan. This week, a Peshmerga of the Komala of the toilers of Kurdistan. Gazal Molan, a young Kurdish woman, died after sustaining injuries in a strike on Tuesday. It seems that it was very hard for the Komala to find medical care for her. I'm going to quote from a piece by the HANA Human Rights Organization here.

Starting point is 03:21:44 She then required urgent higher level treatment, including advanced imaging, specialist trauma care and intensive care support. HANA has received serious allegations that the necessary treatment was not provided and that the subsequent efforts to secure admission or transfer to other hospitals were delayed or refused. The central allegation under review is that once the case was understood to be connected to a drone strike and to carry political sensitivities, non-medical considerations may have affected decisions concerning her admission and treatment. It's pretty bleak if it's true, Ray Lake, it turns out this person could have survived, but hospitals either feared political consequences or being struck themselves. They decided, and you can look at the show notes, right, that they link a number, they talk about a number of hospitals that they basically drove her around trying to find care.

Starting point is 03:22:36 It's really heartbreaking. Again, other strikes have hit civilian facilities, including refugee camps that are associated with the Rojolati groups in Kurdistan. And that seems to be that there is no ceasefire for the Kurds, right? It's the long and the short of it. Iran is taking this time of peace negotiations to kind of reorganize its military and to reassess its supplies. even they have dug out some missiles and anti-air systems that were buried but not destroyed by strikes. And so they will be preparing for whatever comes next. If people want to know more about this, I made a whole episode, which will have come out the day before this in the same feed.

Starting point is 03:23:21 So you can listen to it there. This morning also Trump announced a ceasefire deal for 10 days between Israel and Lebanon. We'll see if that turns out to be real. Israel will abide by this, but that is like as of for like an hour ago, uh, while we record Thursday afternoon. Yeah. And it's worth noting there were literally thousands of violations of the last ceasefire that Iran had supposedly agreed to with Lebanon. So Israel, or not Iran, sorry, Israel it agrees. Yeah. Yeah. Trump had said that it was a quote separate skirmish, uh, in Lebanon and thus didn't, it wasn't included in the ceasefire, which is a hell of a way to describe what's

Starting point is 03:24:01 happening there. For our, Last story, let's talk about Sam Altman. Last week, a 20-year-old college student named Daniel Moran O'Gama traveled from Texas to San Francisco, California, and at 3.30 a.m. on April 10th, allegedly threw a Molotov cocktail toward the home of Open AI CEO Sam Altman. The Molotov hit the top of the security gate on the driveway, leading to Altman's residence. Then at around 5 a.m., Moranogama arrived at the Open AI headquarters and tried to use a chair to break into the building through the glass doors, but was stopped by security. According to security personnel on site, Moranogama stated that he came to the headquarters to burn it down and kill anyone inside. A federal affidavit alleges that after detaining Moranogama, officers recovered, quote, incendiary devices, a jug of kerosene, a blue lighter,

Starting point is 03:24:59 and an anti-AI document, unquote. This document was a three-part manifesto, apparently authored by Moranogama. The first part was titled, quote, Your Last Warning, and allegedly states that Moranogama, quote, killed slash attempted to kill, Sam Altman. Also writing, quote,

Starting point is 03:25:20 if I'm going to advocate for others to kill and commit crimes, that I must lead by example, and show that I am fully sincere in my message, unquote. The document then listed the names and addresses of investors, board members, and executives of AI companies. The second part of the document was titled, Some More Words on the Matter of Our Impending Extinction. This section discussed the purported risk AI poses to humanity. The third part of the document was a letter addressed, quote, to Sam Altman, if you make it. And reads in part, quote, if by some miracle you live, then I would take this as a sign from the

Starting point is 03:25:59 divine to redeem yourself, unquote. Marantogama's Instagram username was Butlerian Jihadist in reference to the crusade against AI in the Dune novels. Yeah. This account had a collection of Instagram stories saved about the existential threat of AI. Now, we don't have a copy of this three-part manifesto in full, but his substack is still online,

Starting point is 03:26:23 and it contains other writing about his belief that AI poses this existential threat to humanity. In this writing, his opposition to AI is not based on fears of disruptions to the economy, loss of jobs, or labor rights, but the belief that AI will become a superior race and wipe out or enslave humanity. In a post from January 6, 26, he writes that AI will, quote, lead to human extinction because of the, quote, rapid progress in artificial intelligence, unquote, as well as that AI models are not aligned with humanity's interests. To quote this essay,

Starting point is 03:27:03 ignore for a second these models current limitations or questions on how truly intelligent or conscious these models may actually be. The truth is, all of these nuances are completely irrelevant to my argument. There are only two questions we should be concerned about at this moment. Is it willing to kill to preserve itself? And is it capable of doing so? signs indicate that AI is willing and becoming potentially capable of doing both these things, and that is all that matters. We are dead if we do not act now, unquote.

Starting point is 03:27:37 He recommended that people read Eliezer Yudkowski's book, If Anyone Builds It, Everyone Dies. And other posts on his substack also mention Yudkowski's work, who's one of the four fathers of quote-unquote rationalism, rationalist thought. and writes a lot about AI, like, doom. Yeah, AI will bring apart the, the end of humanity. This is very much a normal, like, less wrong kind of mindset, right? Like, this guy's not normal.

Starting point is 03:28:07 He's clearly suffering from some disordered thinking and is not, like, this guy does not represent the average person who uses those things. But his justifications for what he did and his media diet is clearly all, like, less wrong stuff, all rationalists. stuff, all Yudkowski stuff. So he's, he's been kind of marinating in that. And, you know, this is what somebody who's not like, this is, unfortunately kind of the logical extent of Yadkowski's ideas. Like he would say he doesn't want anyone doing stuff like this, but his literal contention is that this is going to kill everyone and everything. Like, and it will inevitably do it unless

Starting point is 03:28:48 stopped. And if you really do believe that, you're kind of like left to act like these guys. do. I think the responsible thing is for there to be an anti-AI movement that's not rooted in nonsense, which is, again, why we do the stuff that we do, because I'm very much against a lot of this shit, not because it's going to create a God that kills everybody, but because it makes the internet a lot worse and makes human thinking a lot worse and puts a lot of money into shitty people's hands and is just often unnecessary in many of its applications and outwardly, like, making some things worse and that's not great. Yeah. And like, you know, if you want to talk about like, oh, this is actually going to

Starting point is 03:29:28 like end humanity. It's like, well, yeah, it's also intensifying climate change. The thing that you would think these people would care about. But yeah. Not really as much. Yeah. It's like that's the, I'm not, I don't tend to focus on the, the fucking water use aspects of people complaining about AI because there's so many things we do that are like horrible in those terms. Well, it's also, but I mean, also just like the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. The energy cost thing is massive. Yeah, yeah. And like that is like we're just burning a lot of resources for but like scam bots.

Starting point is 03:30:04 Yeah, it's just useless in a lot of like a lot of what it's being used for is pointless. Like if you're able to, you know, create machines that are more accurately able to like scan for cancers or whatever fine. I don't have a problem with that. But like we don't need to be burning the resources that we're burning to replace like. people writing local news articles with slop advertisements, you know, like that's not a benefit to society and I'm really angry at it. And it's frustrating to see people getting radicalized to literally attack AI people for bullshit reasons. And honestly, Altman's partly to blame for this. He's one of the people who has fanned the flames of, we might be making an evil God.

Starting point is 03:30:46 Yes, because that is really good for investors because it makes her product seem actually impressive. Yeah, but it's like world changing. This is their preferred opposition. Yeah, if you are getting rich by saying, I might be making SkyNet, somebody stop me. Someone might stop you. Sam, you know, like, realistically, don't do that. This substack also contains writing on pseudo-spiritual philosophy about the, quote,

Starting point is 03:31:12 tree of ultimate reality, the aberration of man, the genealogy of being, and the warrior and the martyr, unquote. Sure, man. A little too much internet. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff there. But I want to briefly touch on this other essay about political extremism, where the writer, Moran Gama, describes himself as a consequentialist, defends discrimination, and advocates for, quote, ending mass migration and initiating mass deportations. He proposes a system of IQ or merit-based nationalism, basically a country where citizenship is determined by IQ, and a program to advance, quote, ethical eugenics in the third world to promote IQ growth genetically, unquote. Jesus. Yeah, that's also, that's like amazingly, this is one of these. This is one of those sort of like you look at the Hong Kong protest and it's like there

Starting point is 03:32:06 are Maoists on both sides where both of like, both him and his enemies also believe this. Yeah, I mean, this is a certain strain of like rationalist, post-rationalist is really into this sort of like IQ merit-based. Yeah, and so on. And so are like a bunch of meritocracy. Yeah. And they're like, and so are like a bunch of the tech people who are building the AI stuff.

Starting point is 03:32:27 I mean, this essay specifically is very disordered in its thinking. I do not think a lot of other rationalists would would take some of the sort of beliefs and statements made in this essay at face value. Or like would not agree with the way that he would not agree with the way that Moranagama like writes, writes about these sorts of like policies or ideas. It's very self-contradictory. He writes both kind of in-face. and not in favor of like IQ to vote or to to become a citizen.

Starting point is 03:32:57 It's all very kind of confused. And on Tuesday, Moranagama's public defender said in court that he has, quote, a history of autism and mental health illness and that his actions, quote, appear to have been driven by an acute mental health crisis, unquote. Now, interestingly, two days after the Molotov cocktail attack, Stan Altman's home was apparently targeted again in a drive-by shooting. A man and a woman in their mid-20s have been arrested, connected to that. And on Tuesday morning, a Molotov cocktail was thrown at the entrance of a Tesla sales office in New Orleans,

Starting point is 03:33:34 igniting a fire at the front door. No arrests have been made connected to that incident. I think I should also just briefly mention the warehouse fire thing, which I did a full episode on earlier this week, that you can listen to. But kind of, in short, just after midnight on April 7th, a 29-year-old warehouse worker named Shemel, Abdul Karim, allegedly set a toilet paper warehouse on fire in Ontario, California, leased by the company Kimberly Clark. Abdul Karim allegedly filmed himself igniting three pallets of paper products on fire while saying

Starting point is 03:34:06 aloud, if you're not going to pay us enough to fucking live or afford to live, at least pay us enough not to do this shit. All you had to do was pay us enough to live. There goes your inventory, unquote. According to the DOJ, this fire caused over half a billion dollars in damages. That's 500 million in profit and 100 million in infrastructure. In the days after the fire, people started sharing viral clips of other warehouse fires across the country, asserting that a wave of copycat incidents were occurring where underpaid employees were setting their workplaces on fire.

Starting point is 03:34:40 None of these subsequent warehouse fires have yet been deemed arson. Most are still under investigation, but some do have suspected accidental causes, such as electrical failure, exploding lithium-ion batteries and improperly mixed waste. At least one fire was at an abandoned warehouse. So there was no disgruntled worker setting his workplace on fire in that instance, most certainly. And warehouse fires themselves are actually pretty common. A report from the National Fire Protection Association found that from 2020 to 2024, an average of four warehouse fires occurred per day. The idea that the number of warehouse fires has suddenly increased is an instance of selective reporting, where a big national news story causes people to share local reports that appear connected, even if there is no direct

Starting point is 03:35:26 connection. This happens a lot with aviation incidents where after news of an accident involving a big commercial airliner, people will share local news reports of plane crashes, even if these just involves small private planes, which crash much more frequently. Now, I wrote about the warehouse fire story and the viral misinformation associated with it, because I've been pretty consistent about the need to have an accurate understanding of the world in order to change it. But also, even if viral claims of copycat fires are unfounded, the memes and the reactions to the story, like Luigi Mangione, do demonstrate a form of class consciousness and do show an act of willingness to rally behind such action. The toilet paper arson story specifically is really compelling, because this is just

Starting point is 03:36:14 an everyday worker. This isn't like a Maoist bombing plot. This isn't an anarchist affinity group. it's not hard to grasp the motivation and politics of a worker saying, all you had to do was pay us a living wage. That said, passive engagement with content promoting individualist adventurism can serve as a cathartic substitute for taking political action, including the relatively tedious and difficult work of union organizing. Memes like this warehouse fire trend can have a positive outcome if the sort of energy that's channeled through this direct action and associated content

Starting point is 03:36:48 could then be utilized towards actually building a labor movement instead of just being a way for influencers to attract engagement, which is the way a lot of this story has kind of perforated through Reddit, TikTok, Instagram, and Blue Sky and Twitter. So that's kind of why I talked about the story, the way I did in that episode. And if you want more details about this viral meme, you can check out that episode from a few days ago. Let's see. I think that's everything.

Starting point is 03:37:17 There's no more news left. We did it. We did all of the news. All right. We reported the news. Goodbye. If you want to email us, you can do so with your story tips. You can do that by emailing Coolzone Tips at proton.me. If you want to email us with your marketing or to suggest that your boss be a guest on our podcast, just don't.

Starting point is 03:37:42 We reported the news. Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now. until the heat death of the universe. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Starting point is 03:38:05 You can now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I vowed. I will be his last target.

Starting point is 03:38:24 He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say that trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the IHartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd

Starting point is 03:38:47 was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Ellen's, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Gillespie and Michael Marantini. My mind was blown.

Starting point is 03:39:08 I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 10, 10 shots fired in City Hall building. How could this have happened in City Hall? Somebody tell me that.

Starting point is 03:39:31 A shocking public murder. This is one of the most dramatic events that really ever happened in New York City politics. I scream, get down, get down. Those are shots. A tragedy that's now forgotten. End of mystery. That may or may not have been political. That may have been about sex.

Starting point is 03:39:49 Listen to Roershack, murder at City Hall on the I-Heart. app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Lori Siegel, and this is Mostly Human, a tech podcast through a human lens. This week, an interview with OpenAI CEO Sam Altman. I think society is going to decide that creators of AI products bear a tremendous amount of responsibility to the products we put out in the world. An in-depth conversation with a man who's shaping our future. My highest order bit is to not destroy the world with AI.

Starting point is 03:40:20 Listen to Mostly Human on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to favorite shows. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human.

It Could Happen Here - It Could Happen Here Weekly 228

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.