It Could Happen Here - It Could Happen Here Weekly 34

Episode Date: May 14, 2022

All of this week's episodes of It Could Happen Here put together in one large file.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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so every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's going to be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions. Oh, it could happen here and earlier this week, not the week you're hearing this, but the week we recorded it.

It did, it being the end of Roe v. Wade via Supreme Court fiat and also the coming end of 100 years of social progress and less people get real organized and aggressive real fucking quick. I'm Robert Evans. Who else do I got on with me today? Is there a Christopher Wong on the line? Yes, there is one. There are many others, but I am me. Yeah, the others do not count. Is there a Garrison Davis on the line? The only one that I know of. That's right. That's right. We exterminated the others in a brutal set of purges a la Stalin. And then, of course, Shireen Lanayuna. Shireen? I'm here too. Would you like to introduce Sophie? Kat Green. I'm here too. Would you like to introduce Sophie? Of course. I mean, the one and only Sophie. Okay. Well, that's us. Wow. And now today I am intensely excited to introduce our guest, who is a cool person doing cool stuff to steal from another one of our podcasters.

Kat Green of the Abortion Access Front. Kat, welcome to the show. Thank you for coming on. I know this has been a hell week for you. Yeah, thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it. Now, you and I have a friend in common, and you guys were actually at a national conference for abortion access when the news dropped a little early. Do you want to talk to us a little bit about what happened there? Yeah. I mean, now that the conference is over, I can say that we were in one of the worst cities in the world to be in when all of this happened, Orlando, Florida. Oh, God. Which is basically made of paper sets, right?

Yeah, yeah. Honestly, you could have stopped that sentence at one of the worst cities to be in yeah we had actually been out to dinner at um the oldest restaurant in florida earlier that night and it was a lovely evening um even though like some angry driver uh tried to kill our mutual friend over a parking space. Ah, Florida. There's a gloss over that part. But you love the evening, yeah. Well, you know, I mean, it only-

Florida, yeah. You know, also the day had started with there already being a bomb threat at a clinic in Knoxville. So I was trying to help people find information about that earlier in the day. And then we went out to dinner thinking that we got to relax and then came back to the news as it was breaking and into the lobby of our hotel where the remaining providers and advocates that were there were just trying to make do. Yeah. So Kat, first of all, I guess we should talk about what the abortion access front does and your job there, because this is something I don't think a lot of people think about it. One of the things that's become clear to me from some of the reaction of some folks this week on the more liberal side of things is there is a general unawareness of how violent and intense the threats against abortion access providers have been for like 40

years. Yeah. Well, so Abortion Access Front was founded by Liz Winstead, my partner, who was the co-creator of The Daily Show and started as a progressive advocacy and messaging hub. And so we were making funny videos about abortion and then Trump got elected. We were like, oh, wow, our jobs got way more serious all of a sudden. And so we had like 700 volunteers in the week after the 2016 election. And so we started becoming matchmakers for volunteers to different clinics around the country. And we were doing comedy tours where we were trying to build community around the clinics in different states. And so we would do a comedy show, have a provider on at the end to talk about what was at stake locally, and then get people to

sign up to help because people didn't have access to contractors in many of the places we were going. We would go out and do landscaping work when we were on tour because we were just trying to help out wherever we could. And in the course of that, the nice folks at the National Abortion Federation reached out to us and were like, we're a little concerned about you putting providers on stage. Maybe we should talk about your security plan. So they were out with us the first two years and then were giving me information about people we needed to watch out for. So I got way more involved in creating these security plans around our shows and our tours and started doing a lot of my own research on

anti-abortion extremists because as we started talking to more people, that clinic escorts in front of the clinics, we were getting information about not just leadership, but the people on the ground who they were the most afraid of. So then I was like, I wish I could just put all this into something where I could look something up by a zip code and be able to tell who I need to watch out for in a particular area. That didn't really exist. So there was just a whisper network of escorts and then the leadership research that NAP was doing. And so I started consolidating all my research into a database for all of us to be able to use and track incidents and organizations and bad actors all over the country. I mean, that's, that's extremely important, but also extremely cool.

It is, you brought up right at the start of your, what you were saying, the, that there was a shooting at the Knoxville clinic. Oh, not a shooting. There was a bomb scare at the, at the Knoxville clinic on Monday. And there was an arson at the Planned Parenthood in Knoxville this past New Year's Eve. And that same clinic, that same Planned Parenthood that was burned down on New Year's Eve actually had its front door shot out about a year earlier. And because this is one of the more frustrating cases, if you look this up, you can see that like, the fire department has said it was an arson. The ATF is investigating,

the FBI is investigating, they both get given the kind of boilerplate statements. They given those instances, you don't see a lot from the local police. I'm curious if you have anything to say about like, the degree to which the local police have been useful in responding to this. Well, I don't work with the local police at all. I, you know, I'm a TV person that got into doing extremist research. I'm an editor and that I sort information. Right. So like that made sense to me, but law enforcement doesn't really take me too seriously. But the people on the ground have a lot of thoughts about who it could be. Right. There are known people in the Knoxville area who have caused all sorts

of problems. There was another arson in a different community center there too. And several white supremacists were arrested after protesting at Black Lives Matter event maybe two years ago. And so there's, here's the thing. There's information about the Knoxville fire that went out on Telegram with an order of nine angles, Nazi claiming credit for it. And how hard can it be to find a pagan Nazi in Knoxville? You go to a golf club and be like, who's hit you in the face here? You know, I feel like there are hindrances to the investigation um

and uh a lot of the a lot of the activists on the ground have good leads that are not being followed yeah yeah i guess that's probably the most uh direct thing that can be said about it what so to the extent that like there's seemingly not a lot in a lot of these states that is going to be done preemptively by law enforcement. When it comes to like actually tracing out the threats, how much do you feel like you have a chance to actually stop them from carrying out an action? And how much of it do you feel is just like, we need to be documenting this for when it happens? We're already getting early warning about events. We're already, because we track the people who,

there are a number of groups that create the same kind of actions that are either invasions or blockades at various clinics and people who have been organizing around this for decades, right? So in tracking them and starting to put the pieces together, we're already getting early warning about where they're headed, about who needs to be alerted. You know, there have been at this point, three incidents just like I'm working with a group of volunteers. These are all people who either escort at clinics or part of advocacy

orgs that, you know, are not getting paid to do Intel, but they're invested in the cause. And so they just follow this stuff on the regular and we're all in touch with each other. And all of a sudden it's like, oh, you know, this person who's been a part of 12 other blockades in the last three years has been seen going on a tour and said the next three stops he's going to. Let's tell all the clinics in the neighborhood what's happening and they can be a little bit better prepared. And that's, you know, I mean, honestly, because the abortion movement is not super supported by law enforcement largely, it seemed like a necessary thing for everybody to start keeping their own records for their own safety. And that's really how all this came together. Now, it's interesting to me that you brought up one of

kind of the lead suspects, I guess you might say, for the attack on the Knoxville Clinic was an 09A dude. I'm wondering, with kind of the threats you're seeing, obviously, was an 09A dude. I'm wondering, with kind of the threats you're seeing, obviously, there's decades of attacks on abortion access providers, including a lot of fatal attacks, assassinations, acid attacks, numerous bombings and attempted bombings. How has the character of who is making the threats and who you see as threats started to change over the recent years? I mean, the 09A thing is a big shift. Yeah, that's weird. We've been following the same Christian nationalists for years, and largely they have the same playbook. They make a few changes to it. A

lot of them are older. It's lock and blocks or invasions. There's a few Catholics who get really aggressive and shove their way into stuff, but it's not, it hasn't been big surprises until recently. And a lot of the time in the past, even when there was extreme violence happening amongst these people, it was still sort of tied back to Christian identity stuff. And now we're really starting to see it branching out. And honestly, I blame a few things. One, just the internet in general, but also the pandemic kind of galvanized extremists across a lot of spheres.

And you started seeing a lot of Christian identity people that weren't necessarily militia people starting to mingle with militia people. And then, you know, militia people starting to mingle with white, like over white supremacists. there's this crossbreeding that's happening where like i mean the groipers are a great example of just like this weird amalgam of things that didn't exist in the same sphere before and now they're their own movement yeah i uh i can't tell you how much i hate that like other people who who aren't weirdos who spend all of their time on nazi telegram know what groipers are now yeah it's extremely frustrating it's the worst thing in the world yeah one of the weird things about doing this type of research for years is seeing like on youtube like thumbnails by like stephen colbert talking about like wacky like nonsense that i've known about for years and him talking about it like like it's this big new thing and you're always like

oh wow the little tiny corner of the internet I was just watching and staring at now is like it's something that isn't like a regular libs political lexicon and that's like horrible Joe Rogan

posting about the Kali Yuga you know that was a hard drinking night for Yeah. Joe Rogan posting about the Kali Yuga, you know? Oh, God. Oh, God. That was a hard drinking night for me. That was a hard drinking night for me. And it's so hard to explain to people why it's so bad. You're like, oh, well, it's just.

So once back in the 20s, there was this lady named Savitri Devi. Now. Yeah. In the 20s, there was this lady named Savitri Devi. Now. Yeah, it's it's it's really troubling because it's making its way into traditional Christian identity stuff. You know, evangelical stuff, quiver of all stuff is now starting to cross over way more aggressively with militia stuff and with like over white supremacist neo-Nazi stuff. It's such a problem because, and this is something Umberto Eco noted a long time ago, but like fascism is deeply syncretic, right? And that's what we're talking about right now is its ability.

It's like a Katamari. I refer back to that game a lot because it does just keep picking things up. I refer back to that game a lot because it does just keep picking things up. And we don't really do that as much on like everyone from like the center left to like weirdo anarchists and whatnot, like everyone's got their own little box. Right. And there's some interplay. But for the most part, people on the left really like making boxes and people on the right.

It's just one big ball pit where everybody's smearing their diseases and snot around and it's not great. are happening this week, we're already seeing people co-opting things and turning it in really destructive directions. I mean, you know, the entire cult of Bob the vacuum. Oh boy. Yeah. I mean, I'm actually worried about that as at this point, it feels like a legit AstroTurf. It doesn't feel like they're fighting with actual abortion providers and saying that, you know, that like abortion funds are a problem. It's like those are the people actually walking the walk and doing a popular front again in order to kind of wrest control of the government from Macron. We'll see how it works, right? This is just something that's kind of been announced. But this has happened a few times in the past in different formulations. It would be nice to see a broad popular front in favor of abortion access on a very blunt level. But that would involve people not just getting on board with trying to wrest control from the right back electorally, but people supporting a legalism. A lot of people are going to have to do things that are not legal in order to maintain access to reproductive health care. There's the other side of it. Hardline anarchists will have to realize that working with libs is occasionally useful um and

using them as body shields sometimes can can let you do more illegalist uh type praxis so there's there's both in terms of like people who are really dogmatic on the left being like okay there's types there's certain times where this intersectionalism can be really useful. And then people who are less radical having to be okay with more radical tactics happening. I mean, my biggest fear right now is the mass criminalization event that's about to happen. No matter what, people's pregnancies are going to be criminalized in various forms. If you have a miscarriage, it's going to be criminalized. You're going to have to be more cautious about how you use your phone and what you say in the emergency room and, you know, what you say to people in your own family.

And I don't think that most people on our side are prepared to have that level of caution or divorce themselves from technology in the way that kind of needs to happen for people to stay safe. I'm also worried that like, as a movement, we're not really identifying the fact that it's all about bodily autonomy. And so that means everybody trying to access trans health care is as much or more so at risk. Yeah, absolutely. And we have so much to learn from the sex work industry about all of this, right? Like so much of what is happening now was built on the permissiveness of what people accepted under FOSTA and SESTA. Absolutely. And, you know, that's how all of us got deprioritized and stupid algorithms in the first place. And, and then all of a sudden weren't allowed to put ads out for like

legitimate healthcare services and keeping ourselves in boxes is really doing everybody a disservice because everybody that's been criminalized, everybody who just trying to exist is at risk right now is in this together. Yeah, it's, you know, there's that famous quote from, who's a minister of some sort during, you know, the Weimar years about first they came for us, you know, yada, yada, yada. And it is like, it's always true with fascists, but that doesn't mean that people ever spot it while it's happening, right? Because there's very few groups that mainstream America has less inherent sympathy for than sex workers. And the reality is that they were testing a lot of this out on those people because they are marginalized. And I guess

one of the things I hope we'll see, and that might have some positive developments, is that there are a lot of sex workers out there with a lot of op-sep tips that they can give other people now. It would be dope if there were folks setting up clinics and stuff in that, because I think there's a lot of information that does need to get shared with folks who are not used to thinking about any of the stuff they're doing as illegal. I've been seeing stuff on, you know, Facebook among kind of friends of mine who are more middle of the road and family members who are pretty much centrist politically, where they're talking about like, hey, if you need to go on a camping trip in another state, I'll take you on your camping trip. And it's like, I get it, like, it's great to express

solidarity. But will you feel that way when it's actually a felony and people are getting 20 year sentences for doing it? Right. Like, cause that's where we're headed, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, people need to get more serious about moving their data out of the country altogether,

you know, like thinking about what can be subpoenaed. Yeah. Um, the folks at Hacking and Hustling are doing really amazing work to spread sort of sex work and sex work adjacent OPSEC knowledge to other communities too. They're amazing. Oh, that's great. I was not aware of what they were doing. Would you mind giving a little brief overview of what that is for folks? I mean, I've only been in a couple sessions with them, but they're generally just sharing information about like tightening up your digital footprint and also being conscious about how having multiple, like if you have to have a clandestine identity online,

how you can keep that from leaking over into any of your other digital identities, right? And I mean, it's a really important distinction because even if you have something like a SOC account on something like Facebook, based on how you set it up and what other accounts it's connected to and who you friend in that process, it can very easily find its way back to you and the people connected to you. And so how do you see those dreams? Yeah. I mean, whenever somebody angers this podcast,

we have garrison track them down. It's very easy. Yeah, that is, that is, that is true. I have a whole, whole folder of people dropping their kids off at school.

That's right. That's right. So, you know, keep your eye out. Hello, fresh. Don't screw with us again

or that one reviewer that said that there was the woman on the podcast who was annoying i know who you are i i was able to i was able to track back via your apple account just one just one reviewer uh-huh somebody tried to request access to one of my folders uh that's connected to, we had a January 6th document where we had identified a bunch of people. And so I just linked it to, you know, Google Drive things so that press people could get to stuff. And somebody just out of nowhere tried to access one of them the other day and requested permission. I'm just like, all I had to do was look up your name in the word abortion.

Like, come on, try a little harder. So Kat, I'm wondering, number one, for people who are like pissed and feeling helpless, there are things that folks can do to help, assuming you live in a state that there's anything at all around, because like a lot of people who are hundreds of miles away from any kind of clinic. But if you're not, I know there are ways people can help. Do you have any kind of pieces of advice for folks interested in being of use? There are so many things, right? I mean, right now, I think the biggest thing that the movement needs more than anything is abortion funds and practical support funds really need financial help because they are paying to move

people around as night as needed to get them care. Right. So the money thing is always the obvious, but we're actually having an event on July 17th. That is sort of an orientation day for new people coming to the movement who want to volunteer and don't know where. So we're going to cover things like how you become a clinic escort, what it means to volunteer on like an abortion fund or practical support hotline, how you can get involved in lobbying groups, how you can get involved in direct action groups and sort of pre-vetting people and then

getting them out to the organizations that actually have capacity to take on volunteers right now, because a lot of what's happening, like we already saw it in Texas, where people really wanted to volunteer to help in Texas after SB8 came down. But they were doing things like calling the abortion fund hotline to try and get to people. And it's like, no, you can't clog up the hotline that doesn't help anybody. So we're trying to take some of the lift off of the orgs that are already overtaxed, that their people give them some background information, give them a better idea of what the landscape is in the movement, and then make the connections to organizations that have the capacity to take them on. So it's called Operation Save Abortion. And we're going to do a live stream

and house parties all over the country. Awesome. People are either watching the streams we're doing or having their own local people to talk about how people can get active locally in more direct ways. Yeah. And there's stuff like being an escort, which is something I've been learning a little bit more about recently. I guess one of the things I'm interested in is like, uh, from a, a, a perspective of actually like keeping folks safe. Um, is that something that you feel has like a lot of value or is that something? Yeah. Um, and is that like a, people would want to like look at, are there kind of resources for resources for getting involved with that? There are. Clinic escorting is a little tricky right now because there's a whole lot of clinics that don't know if they're going to be open in eight weeks.

Right. So right now, while that's all shaking out, I mean, if you already have an established relationship with your local clinic, definitely check in with them. clinic, definitely check in with them. Clinics in states that are going to see a surge, Pennsylvania, Illinois, New York, I mean, really anywhere that's still going to have abortion after the 26 states fall, the entire West Coast, New Mexico, Minnesota, they are all going to need escorts, which clinic escorting is walking a person from their car to the clinic door past protesters. It's generally, I would say, 99% of clinics are non-engagement clinics. So doing this means that you're there for the patient. You're not there to get in a protester's face. Some clinics have enough of a protester presence, like clinics in Charlotte, clinics in

Jackson, Mississippi, where they split it up and they have people that are there for the patients and people that are there to distract protesters and sort of pull them away from the door, just get them a little bit removed so that they can get patients past them. the door, you know, just get them a little bit removed so that they can get patients past them. This is a little bit less pleasant of a question, but, you know, I've done for a different cause, a lot of the same research where you're like spending time in these dark corners of the internet, making notes of people and threats being made. And I remember the horrible feeling of like having a specific kind of thing that hadn't quite happened before that I was sure was going to happen. And then the fucking thing happens. Um, are there particular things you are

worried about in the, especially like once this comes through, like that, uh, that are kind of on your horizon? Like, is there stuff that, that people need to be kind of preparing for in terms of like an escalation in, in direct action against clinics? Absolutely. I mean, we're already seeing increased threats against clinics. This, this bomb threat the other day was a test balloon, right? But there are organizations like POW who are actively aggressively invading clinics on the regular and doing things like stealing

products of conception, fetal remains, right? And parading them out to the public and naming doctors in an effort to get them hurt, right? It's stochastic terrorism. They're not, they are not going to be the ones to pull the trigger. They are just putting it out there so that somebody else does the dirty work for them. And so many people are guilty of that, right? The church at Planned Parenthood is another good example. And they've had, you know, they've had a long presence in Spokane. They moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. They've set up church plants in Birmingham and they've been throughout Oregon. And in Oregon, they were hiring the Proud Boys as their security, which eventually, unsurprisingly, turned into a big fight when counter-protesters showed up,

the police showed up, tear gassed everybody. It's like, how is, one, how is this church? Two, you know, like, what is anybody trying to get out of this? And so there's a lot of people who have been putting it out there for a long time that there's all this othering language of calling people demons because it makes them easier to kill. There's going to be clinic violence. I mean, there's going to be clinic violence. I mean, there's going to be more clinic violence. I should say all of this is violent. It's violent to have people out there screaming at you and calling you a whore with a giant sign of fetus parts. But I mean, they're really waiting for somebody to light more buildings on fire or shoot somebody,

waiting for somebody to light more buildings on fire or shoot somebody and it's going to happen yeah well does anyone else have anything to get into here on that happy note on that happy note i think um it's just it's not going to be like actual nazi extremists that do a lot of these attacks either i think especially with it uh being especially if if like if roe v. wade does get fully taken away it that will justify a pretty violent action in the minds of like most regular christians um even when i grew up in like a pretty evangelical uh type of community those types of like attacks against planned parenthood were almost that like there was the, there was the overall feeling that they were like celebrated and people who would do it would be lauded as like biblical heroes for,

for like, for like just arsening a building like that. That was very much the sense that I got when I was a kid. Like I, I remember thinking, thinking those thoughts like, Oh, that's what like a good people do.

Like that's like people who are brave will go and burn down an abortion clinic. They were openly celebrated. The army of God would have the White Rose Banquet to raise money by auctioning off the personal effects of people who had bombed clinics and shot doctors. And you see a lot of that mirrored now in things like the saints calendar, right? And so you see neo-Nazis and other white supremacists promoting the saints calendar and then directing people to the army of God website. And then you see Christian nationalists finding accelerationist handbooks and having that knowledge now. Right. And so they can have the knowledge and loosely collaborate without ever having to say, oh, I'm a part of, you know, Patriot Front or the Proud Boys or whatever. as extremists they'll see themselves as like regular christians they'll see themselves as regular conservatives and what they're doing is like is like sanctioned by god and it's like good righteous holy work um so i think that is definitely something to keep your eye on because

it's not all going to be like skull mask wearing people doing bomb threats it's going to be like regular like regular conservative christians who are who are like been on this right words track the past the past few decades. Most of the people that we track are not part openly part of extremist groups. Well, not openly part of like known militant extremist groups. But a lot of them are hold office, you know? Sure. There was Derek Evans was in West Virginia. You've got John Jacob in Indiana, like the whole Oklahoma contingent, like abolish human abortion has really just become a lobbying group that's trying to get people in office wherever they can. There's, I mean, they've gotten really strategic about getting people into smaller

legislative roles so that they have more power to push things and so that they look more respectable. Yeah. And it's, that leads kind of to another point, which is that when you get right down to it, once the ruling comes through finally, as it looks like it will, the vast majority of violence that's going to be done to abortion providers and to people seeking abortions and to people supporting them is going to be done by police. Like, that's the eventual endgame here. end game here. Yeah. And that's the thing I'm the most afraid of, right? Because it's so much easier to turn somebody in than it is to actually attack a person physically or a building even. And so that's what it's going to be. It's going to be people calling in their neighbors, calling in something from the hospital, turning in their grandkids. You know? Well, is there anything right now that's making you optimistic, Kat? Not to put you on the spot. No, no, it's okay. I've thought about that a lot. I mean, honestly, the people working

in this are so dedicated to helping people that that always gives me hope. And I genuinely feel like there's enough of us that have plans. You know, even if, even if not everybody's on board with the same stuff, there are enough people really doing the hard work and being pragmatic about what's happening and not just cowing under the pressure of it that are energized by helping people that I think there will always be people helping. They might not always be visible, but they're there and it's just going to be harder to find them. So. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Do you have anything else you'd like to plug before we kind of roll out here? Any place people could send donations or volunteer if they're into that? Oh, I mean, you can always donate to Abortion Access Front. We're aafront.org. And there's a volunteer form there. But also,

if you want to participate in our event on July 17th, you can go to operationsaveabortion.com. And there's a registration form there to get involved in the event. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Kat Green. You are amazing. And what you do is incredibly important. And to everybody else, go find some way to help. Or, you know, at least it's easy to pee in a water balloon.

Sorry. Okay. Well, let's get into that. Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter. Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America.

From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how Tex Elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge

and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God, things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez,

will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez.

At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well.

Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jacqueline Thomas, the host of a brand new

Black Effect original series, Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. I'm Jack Peace Thomas, and I'm inviting you to join me and a vibrant community of literary enthusiasts dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories. Black Lit is for the page turners, for those who listen to audiobooks while commuting or running errands, for those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge between the chapters. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Together, we'll dissect classics and contemporary works while uncovering the stories of the brilliant writers behind them. Blacklit is here to amplify the voices of Black writers and to bring their words to life. Listen to Blacklit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

It happened here. yes nice nice great at this nice introducing you you got it yeah this is this is it could happen here at the podcast where it it has happened it sure does i'm your host christ Christopher Wong. With me, we have like 17,000 people. We've got Garrison. Yep. We've got Sophie. We've got Robert.

Allegedly. We've got Shireen. We have new friend of the pod, Shireen. New teammate. And we have returning, I think... Yes. Yeah, returning...

Well, I'm trying to think how many returning guests we have. But yeah. Kieran. Yeah. Yes. And creator of our website that I love. Yee. I'm so glad.

I'm so glad you like it. Love. Yeah. And we are gathered here today uh to talk about something that sucks which is uh the leaked draft of samuel alito's decision to overturn roe v wade it's now we're all mostly angry that somebody dared to leak a draft and upset the sanctity of the supreme Court's deliberation process, right? Right. That's definitely the thing that's been keeping me awake at night.

Yeah. Yeah. A bunch of elderly ghouls who refuse to give up their grip on power can't deliberate in privacy. What has this world come to? Megan Kelly, is that you? Mm-hmm. Yes. It's been me all along.

How can I trust the Supreme Court if not everything happens in secret all of the time, always? My, on a serious note, I would like to start this by stating my primary attitude towards the Supreme Court is that more stairways should be greased uh anyway that's my contribution we have been big proponents of horse lube for years uh years years and this stance continues um i think horse lube could solve a lot of problems. It could. So many. So I do think it is especially gross that like there's the whole side of media people who are making the story out that, oh, no, look at this leak. That is the worst thing to happen in human history. I can't believe this got leaked. And that is like a pretty dominant narrative going on for like over half the country. Even like even on like CNN, that was like the first thing.

It's pretty funny, too, because like the original Roe decision also got leaked. Like I don't even have the text, but like the way it was going to go also got leaked. It's like, OK. It's like this is actually consistent. So why are we angry about this it's clearly like i i get why the republicans are doing it right because it's a way number one that they can pretend to be victims there's a lot of people comparing it to like the january 6th and shit yeah that's um yeah sorry it's the comparison to be made there is not that the leak happened.

No. That's. And like, it's like it leaked. Yeah. Okay. How about the fact that the information in said leak is dangerous and is going to cause a bunch of people to die? Also, there should be more leaks and government things all the time. That's actually good.

I co-sign that. Yeah. Yeah. The government should not be allowed to keep secrets like i'm sorry okay you get to privacy like no no not only like we don't either apparently they're literally they're called civil servants and they're doing everything in secret like we're supposed to know i mean in the perfect world they're spying on us we have no privacy yeah yeah exactly like whatever it's only fair. Get over yourselves.

I mean, I guess maybe we'll eventually find out who did it, but we don't have to assume that it was a progressive that did it, for example. I think the conservatives have even more of a motive to release it because they're mobilizing their people to agree and be like, yes! Do we want to do the the the weird spring court inside baseball shit like okay so the weird inside baseball shit is so this is a draft decision right this decision like hasn't this is this is not the law of the land yet and the thing with draft decisions that they change and the thing that's happening here is there's this weird split there's there's like a three two two split on like what actually is it three two yeah that that makes up seven right i'm like what

actually because like so the the the five conservative justices like don't like row but there's i mean particularly with like roberts there's a there's kind of a split on like how far they want to take it and so part of what could be going on here is like so this the version of of decision that got leaked is like this is basically the most extreme thing they could possibly do uh in a lot of wide-ranging impacts on how we view personal rights uh yeah 22 i mean it's it's you know they can talk about it later yeah and like this is you know this is the thing like like the the the the nerd like supreme court

watchers like didn't think that like this would be the thing right they didn't think they would just straight up overturn bro they thought they would chip at it a little bit first or like go after casey but like no no they're just they're just straight up going after roe and part of what could be the strategy here is like a lot of okay so the liberals on the supreme court like have been feckless and powerless for an enormous amount of time and a lot of what they spend their time doing is trying to like get one or two sentences changed to be slightly less bad and this could be an attempt to get the other conservative justices to like force them to rally around uh alito's like unbelievably hard and the other thing that's worth noting about

this is that like alito alito is like i don't know i mean cavanaugh okay so for a very long time alito was like broadly considered by the legal community to be the worst legal mind in the Supreme Court. Like he's a clown. He's like – his legal reasoning is really bad. Like even by this – and this has changed with Amy Coney Barrett and Kavanaugh to some extent. But like this is not a guy – this is not like a subtle legal mind. This is like a bull in a china shop who you throw out when you need to just like hit something with a hammer right and so you know like yeah part part of what the strategy seems to be is to try to try to coerce the other justices who are like like like roberts who is like slightly less fanatical

than alito is and try to get them to rally around this like incredibly maximalist hard-lined not only going after roe but going after like a whole bunch of other stuff that we will get to in a second yeah so that that's the that's the sort of supreme court inside baseball shit that is possibly part of what's going on with the leak but yeah i mean to be honest i think that's whatever is going on in the leak the the primary topics of interest to most people are going to be, number one, the degree to pretty relentless electoralism married to a very effective direct action terrorism campaign that has netted the right a tremendous win here. it's a crisis but it hasn't been treated as a crisis and like when fucking democrats campaign this is like such an urgent matter and as soon as they're elected it's suddenly like not as urgent like look at fucking biden he ran on literally caught like codifying it he ran with that promise and obviously that didn't happen um and then there's also like to robert's point from earlier these justices are

just like ancient and don't give up their power and i mean there's no use in pointing fingers even though i like to do it so like rbg for example like if she had just retired at her fucking time maybe there would be like one more justice that could fucking help us out but there's a lot i mean she's got her share of the blame. There's also the fact that we've had, I think, six justices appointed by Republicans in the last 30 years, and only one of those Republicans actually won the popular vote. Right. Which was the goal. This is not just one of the most important things to understand about the anti-abortion movement is that it's not center. It didn't start and is not centered around abortion.

It is centered around reversing all social progress of the last century. And the inciting incident was the integration of schools. Right? This all started over Brown versus the Board of Education. Abortion was just the thing they realized it was easier to rally people around than segregation. And that's what we're dealing with right now.

So fundamentally, this has always been an anti-democratic movement. This has always been about codifying into law and locking into place for essentially forever a minority rule in which Christian extremists would get to govern the much larger chunk of the country that does not believe in those sort of things. Yeah. And I think that's also worth mentioning anytime someone talks about this, because the media does, like the media just runs pr for the anti-abortion movement which is that this is unbelievably unpopular like staggeringly unpopular nobody wants this this is like this is this is less like you can pick if like this is less popular than invading fantasy

countries that don't exist like if if you put like this this is this is significantly less popular than uh than the burning police stations down we have the polling data on that it's like 20 less popular than lighting police stations on fire like it is unbelievably staggeringly unpopular no one wants this except for a a very very very well organized very politically connected very wealthy and very powerful clique of christian fascists yeah well the laws never reflect what the the most of the population wants though right like what yeah exactly like the popular vote for example as you mentioned earlier so it's like i think there was a poll i was reading about this yesterday in june of last

year 2021 68 percent of people thought abortion should be legal for for any reason like there's no it doesn't have to be like any kind of thing so it's like it's and there's so many polls that also just like prove that most people don't want this hard and fast rule but yeah the both parties i think uh utilize it to rally together people to vote but obviously for different causes yeah and like the the first reaction from from from democrats was hey donate to our campaign it's like yeah oh my god yeah this sudden flood of emails honey read the room you have all the power in quotes right now and you've done nothing yeah it's like vote blue dare dare saying that and you get attacked by other democrats by being like a radical leftist ruining movement because like it's not their fault

and i'm like you you've had power multiple times in my 30 years of life where you could have done it easily yeah like like and this is this is one of the things that like okay like this stuff doesn't work on me because i remember when obama had a two-thirds majority in this yeah he had a filibuster proof majority in the senate had the house and not only did he not do this uh obama by by 2010 obama is codifying anti is codifying anti-abortion stuff and codifying the hyde amendment so yeah it's like no like and this is the this is the thing with the democrats right like they this is the best thing that's happened to the democrats since trump left office like the democratic party they love this this is the best this is the best thing that could possibly happen to them because now what they can do is they can run on we're

going to bring abortion back every single election cycle and they never do it right because every single because they'll they'll never like the stuff that they run on like yeah they'll they'll they'll like they will even even if they they got somehow by like magic if they somehow got another 60 vote majority they'd find a way to not do it because this this is this is a permanent fundraising thing for them yep yeah and they're they're desperately in need of money all the time always so if you take that away like during my brief stint in the california democratic party fundraising was always a big deal and they didn't want to divest from fossil fuel and cops because then where would the money come from? You can't take campaigning on row away from them because then they don't fucking know how to activate grassroots organizers. It scares the shit out of them. So they will be fucked if they lose

this, which is why nothing has happened speaking speaking of money do you know who else wants their money that's that's right the products and services that support this podcast that's right uh and you know uh certain may make you infertile so that's that's absolutely not we are not doing this today. We are back. We'll be talking about Supreme Court abortion stuff for a lot in the coming months.

We'll be talking about various different facets of it. Different mutual aid and ways of going about filling in the gaps which are going to become larger um and a whole bunch of other stuff relating to like uh right-wing terrorism against abortion clinics and all that kind of stuff um the other interesting aspect about this that i want to kind of briefly talk about is that with the specific phrasing of the document is it it it threatens a whole like

sect of personal rights not just abortion rights and it could have far-reaching impacts in terms of privacy rights, in terms of possibly even backtracking on stuff like gay marriage and a whole bunch of other things

it's like, it's obviously the abortion angle itself is pretty massive and it affects half the population uh but there's a whole lot of other stuff that is that that indicates this like this trajectory towards this type of like right-wing fundamentalist of christian like christian fascist uh effort to hack away at all the things that they deem degenerate or things that they deem as undesirable.

Well, I mean, the goal is to make America a Christian nation so Jesus can come back and rule it. And you can't do that if, you know, people are gay or people are allowed to be on birth control or people are allowed to marry outside of their race or go to school with people who don't look like them. Yes, I did read Jesus say all of those things. Yeah, it's definitely in the Bible somewhere. Yep. If you do like that poetry style where you blot out some of the words to make other words.

Which is most of the Bible. Yes. make other words which is now yes the thing we gotta get into that i think is is the primary question people have right is like beyond sort of the doom scrolling of of all of this and all of the fear about like what's going to happen to obergeville and lawrence v kansas and all this stuff what are they going to go for next is like what actually will work to oppose this shit right um we at the moment i have not seen and i don't believe there's any objective signs the democratic party is going to be particularly useful in stymieing any of this bullshit um cinema and mansion have already come out against uh removing the filibuster uh mansion has come out against voting at all in order to codify abortion access into law in any kind of federal way. And yeah, I get the sense that for most of them, it's a big

fundraising opportunity. Now we do have, that's not to say it's all bad news, because it is kind of, there's a possibility that this will have a significant impact on the midterms. We got one kind of sign that way, the race in Michigan that just ended, the special district or the special election where for the first time in quite a while, a district that Trump carried by like 16 points went to a Democrat. Now, the Republican that they were running against was the guy who said that women should lie back and enjoy it if they were getting raped. So this is one of those like, I don't know how much we should seeless and primarily a method of fundraising for rich people, actual Democratic voters are rightfully horrified about what's going on. And this has – there's a potential here to activate a lot of people and get them organized in a productive way. So I think that has to be on our minds. And so there's a mix of, I don't want to discount electoralism, but I think that in the immediate term, one of the things that people are going to have to do is provide actual material ways for folks to get access to the health care that's going to be increasingly denied to them.

Now, we had a couple of episodes earlier in the year with Michael Laufer of the Vortheves Vinegar Collective. with Michael Laufer of the Vortheves Vinegar Collective. He's just gone viral in a Vice article about the hacked abortion pills that they've been guiding people in how to make. I think stuff like that is really useful. When I started posting about this online, someone pointed out that pro-abortion activists in Germany recently flew drones across the border to Poland to drop off Mifeprostol, like abortion pills, which were picked up by people in Poland. And there's going to be increasing kind of organizing around that, stuff like the Jane Collective. People are already organizing from like national organizations to increase access in states where it's going to remain legal for people out of state.

So I think that's going to be hugely important. Does anyone else have sort of ideas on kind of what things people can do and are going to be doing to push back against this? Because I do think it's got to be twofold. It's got to be both, you know, pushing back in sort of a legal sense and also pushing back by direct action in order to ensure that people still have access to this stuff i don't know i don't have faith in electoral electoral anything uh so i really think like if there's if it's possible to find your own community and like just almost like with i don't know uh just mobilizing your actual peers versus like trying to trust anyone with power to

get anything done because maybe I'm a pessimist maybe I'm just a pessimist but what you said earlier about the person she was running against what I heard is that that person was still running and people like he was still the number two you know and I think on the other side they are their side is also going to rally against stuff like didn't oklahoma just pass like yeah the most restricted band ever where like just yesterday at time of recording yep yeah so in this law women can be punished up to 10 years in prison for getting an abortion and like in pair like just for some perspective rapists in oklah Oklahoma get five years.

So it's like stuff like that is happening in all these states. And because these states, people with less resources maybe don't have the ability to travel so far, I think really mobilizing communities a little bit more, maybe just more effective in my opinion. more, maybe just more effective, in my opinion. Yeah, I mean, we have to mobilize communities, but you also can't, like, it can't just end at, we're going to try to, like, provide these people with an option to get out of the state or get access where they are, like, clandestinely. If it's limited to that, they're going to push to make all this more illegal federally, and they're just going to keep throwing people in prison and using the police as the enforcement arm of this stuff. There does have to be, there has to be a broader counter.

You know, I'm thinking back to like, and I'm not talking about like picking a dude to vote for. I'm talking about like in, in Mexico, right. When they were talking about making abortion, illegal activists attempted to light the Capitol building on fire.

Um, and, uh, like that, that, that kind of like, there has to be, there has to be a broader, two thirds of the country thinks this is bullshit.

There has to be a way of getting those people organized in a way beyond dealing with the acute problems caused by this. Like, yeah. And I, I don't entirely know what that looks like but that makes sense no that you're right it makes sense well and i think i think that there have been signs that it's like so i mean there's obviously like there were protests

like there's been protests like literally since the thing came out there were especially in dc there's been yeah also i mean i think i think part of like and la you can see this sort of like yeah with the dc one you can see this sort of like i don't know you you can see the way that people haven't i guess fully internalized the fact that the state is just trying to do this to them and that like you know if you look at the barricades that were put up right like you could just push those over like and then there you had a bunch of people who were extremely angry and they sort of just sat there and did nothing right and like this is this is the kind of thing that like you know if you look at what happened in la there there was a lot of protests in la

and like the department like homeland security was on the street beating people and i think if if there's like okay so one thing it's important to keep in mind is that this still again this this the ruling the draft of the ruling is not the actual ruling, right? There is still time right now in between this leak and when this is actually decided. There is still time to literally force the court to not do this. So start greasing those stairwells, people. Yes. Well, I think here's a few notes.

greasing those stairwells, people. Yes. Well, I think, here's a few notes. So one, I think it's going to be used to encourage action on all sides. This is going to be seen as a victory for the right and they're going to use this momentum to mobilize further, to put more further anti-abortion stuff into law

and to encourage people to take vigilante justice out on health care providers. The second thing is direct action for trying to alter the ruling before it happens. There is a chance to do mass mobilization. There is a chance if things are framed correctly, you can bring a lot of liberals out and convince them and suggest to them that they can that they could do things that they ordinarily maybe wouldn't do uh there's that is that is an entirely uh entirely possible scenario um just in my in my episodes about the atlanta forest from a few days ago i discussed uh the shack method of protest now this this isn this isn't, this isn't, this doesn't carry over, uh, one-to-one

because that is pretty focused on doing economic targeting. But the whole idea of targeting people outside of like the political space is a key to that. Like people, people don't just do work in the Supreme court. They have actual everyday lives. And you can uh surround them in their everyday lives that type of personal pressure is way more uh affecting than just yelling at a government building sometimes um because if we can dissolve this like safe political like space that people think don't think think they operate it in right they assume that oh i'm a court justice i'm a judge everything that i do happens in the courtroom right i? I'm safe, I'm contained, everything is just in the confines of the courtroom. I don't get to experience consequences for my actions outside

the courtroom, which isn't true, because obviously the people, all of us, do experience those consequences in the real world all the time. Just the people in power don't have to. So instead, if we can put pressure on people when they're going about their everyday lives uh in their hanging banners in their backyard doing other things uh horse loop again very useful um that is a that is a way to do uh types of protests that we have not seen as much uh but i think is now is probably the time to start doing that right um yeah i mean we saw we saw stuff after the murder of george floyd with people surrounding but I think now is probably the time to start doing that, right? Yeah. I mean, we saw stuff after the murder of George Floyd

with people surrounding the house of Derek Chauvin, which the police were very angry about. They did not like that, no. There is an indication that, hey, the state doesn't like it when this happens. It's not specifically more illegal to stand in the street of a residential neighborhood. It's not specifically more illegal to stand in the street of a residential neighborhood.

No, and it's – a lot of protests so far has focused on court buildings, many of which are federal. And those provide a lot of benefits to, shall we say, the defender, including the fact that they're already well set up for surveillance. They're generally fortified. generally fortified uh they have a pretty short logistic tale to where the state is keeping its weaponry and its troops as opposed to just kind of fucking with people in their lives which is a lot harder for those kind of militarized responses that lead to large groups of your friends getting arrested or beat up by feds i think also like yeah the the tendency to go after like legal buildings is missing the point of where the actual power is like this is the thing which january 6th too is like yeah even if like yeah they took over the capital and nothing happened and the reason that like nothing could happen is because it's just a building right like

the the the the actual political system exists independently of it and you have to hit the things that the system actually cares about and so like like that's ports, that's roads, that's border crossings, that's things like, why am I now suddenly- Vacation homes. Yeah, but like, but also, I mean like, okay, like if there was actually like a way to stop this, one of the few things that could actually do it would be something like a large scale teacher strike

or a thing I've talked about before that is happening this summer is for example the the longshoreman contract in uh oakland is coming up right and like those are the kinds of things like if you can actually start shutting down large sections of the u.s economy the supreme court are political actors they will have to respond to this and you can essentially like like you you can you can blackmail them into into doing the thing that they should be doing you you can apply targeted pressure economically and personally yeah yeah and that's the type of protest that i think it would be interesting to see where that leads us they need to not they like the consequence for both the political actors who are

carrying this out and the people who support them needs to be that they don't get to live a normal life um that they are that they suffer consequences for hurting people and that means a lot of things but among other things it means that certain people shouldn't be going to the fucking grocery store without feeling the hatred you know yeah and i think they shouldn't be able to order delivery and feel secure that what they're gonna eat isn't gonna hurt them yeah and i think also like if like one of the things that i'm remembering from that was actually really effective initially from the beginning of the trump administration was the airport protests and that's a place that like you wouldn't think you'd be able to really occupy

because again the amount of security there is enormous but like if you have a lot of libs you can i i remember like i was i was like standing in an airport terminal and there was a line of riot cops attacking like everyone is like oh we're gonna get attacked but like there was just enough like everyone just sat down and there was enough libs with like their kids that the cops didn't attack and that's that that's a kind of thing that like potentially could be replicated and also could be useful given the fact that like sometimes cops have like an aversion to a like stuff that looks really really bad on tv not not always but like yeah this is this is the thing that can happen is a thing that like has happened in our like pretty recently yeah we can do again i don't really

trust footage of police brutality to change things anymore um i feel like we reached the peak of that in 2020 yeah and at this point i think moving on to targeted pressure towards individuals that hold positions of power and targeted pressure to the economy is going to be where it's at. Speaking of targeted pressure to the economy, a large protest at an airport that the police break up with tear gas does damage to the economy that the police are the ones causing. And like, it's one of those things, as we've stated, a courthouse or whatever is just a building. People can not go into work and do all of the fucked up shit that they're doing on Zoom. An airport is not just a building.

And so a protest at an airport has some teeth that a protest at a courthouse doesn't necessarily. protest at a courthouse doesn't necessarily i do have one like quick other thing that i want to throw out as sort of a means of uh resistance or action is something that i was trained to do growing up part of the forced birth movement is co-opting the language that the left uses and i think something that we should do and something that we can all be doing right now is co-opting the language back. So when forced birth advocates say they're pro-life, come back with how can you be pro-life

if you want someone to die by having a pregnancy? And just sort of taking words and rhetoric that has traditionally been used to oppress us to reframe it and be like no actually you're the one who's telling on yourself here and you're the one who is forcing people literally to die in multiple ways. You cannot be pro-life if you support people who already exist dying. And just sort of thinking about that a little bit if you don't necessarily have the energy to go stage a protest at an airport. Yep, that is a great line to end on. Everybody go out.

And again, our sponsors are the Klein and Stubel Hip Surgery Center in Washington, D.C. So please do keep greasing those stairways, everybody. Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter? Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you.

Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how tech's elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI

to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building

things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. On Thanksgiving Day 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba.

He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian.

Elian Gonzalez. everywhere. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network,

available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jack Peace Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. I'm Jack Peace Thomas, and I'm inviting you to join me and a vibrant community of literary enthusiasts dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories. Black Lit is for the page turners, for those who listen to audiobooks while commuting or running errands, for those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge between the chapters. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Together, we'll dissect classics and contemporary works

while uncovering the stories of the brilliant writers behind them. Black Lit is here to amplify the voices of Black writers and to bring their words to life. Listen to Black Lit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to It Could Happen Here, the podcast that's happening here right now in your ears. It could happen here. I'm Robert Evans. I'm not with any of my normal co-hosts today Because, fuck them, no

Because I'm elsewhere in the world right now Hanging out with someone you might remember from a special episode we recently did on Molotov Cocktails Journalist James Stout Hi everyone, yeah, I'm here with Robert in a tiny hotel room And we've just woken up, ready to do some podcasting Yeah, we're not here for any specific purpose we just decided let's rent a hotel room cast some pods you know hang out um james how do you feel about the border negatively uh broadly speaking i think the border is a tool

that we use to harm and kill the most marginalized people in the world and i think that's kind of borne out by stats as well. So yeah, not a big border guy. Yeah, and you and I recently spent a decent amount of time on the Texas-Mexico chunk of the border, specifically near McAllen, Texas, hanging out at a butterfly sanctuary that people can learn some things about if they Google. We'll be coming out,

those episodes will be dropping in the not too distant future. But you live on the San Diego side of the border, which if people don't know, San Diego, California is basically in Mexico. You can hop over across for like lunch and stuff if you really want to and don't mind dealing with CBP. And yeah, so you've done a lot of reporting around the border and about kind of the system of violence that it represents um i wanted to chat a little bit like about that and i wanted to chat about some of the organizations that you've run into that are doing good work out there because there's a lot

that needs to be done yeah definitely i think um i think it's really important to like conceptualize what's happening at the border in terms of like uh the border is a tool for state violence right state violence against marginalized people and like what the the good groups groups helping people on the border represent is like ways of us helping each other which are outside the networks of us having power over each other right so in the broader spectrum of like mutual aid of mutual support like i think they're really important to focus on rather than kind of so many people construct the border in their minds like uh you can see if you go back on my twitter some guy just being like that is not the border the border does not look like that the border is barren and it's desert and it's full of

people with guns and it's really not right like so the border exists as like this mental construct a place where we can do like political theater especially on the right so people who are actually down there on the ground and understand it i think it it's vital to support them. Yeah, one of the more striking moments to me when we were in McAllen was hanging out near this chunk of border fence that had been constructed by volunteers, effectively. And it's what you would expect, like the stereotype of the border. It's this huge military industrial looking thing. The wildlife has been cleared from around it so that you can have this towering steel edifice.

But then a hundred yards away across the Rio is the Mexican side of the border. And there's like a couple of goat farms and like a little restaurant with a little dock so people can like, you know, take their little boats out and people are drinking and there's party music playing. And it's it's nice it's pastoral and green it was it looked like a lovely place it looked much nicer than hanging out by the giant steel tower yeah i found that all along the border actually like we'd our side of the border looks like

something from i don't know like blade runner or something like it's this giant dystopian steel construct with with people with guns with watch towers and it's horrific right like it's this giant dystopian steel construct with with people with guns with watch towers and it's horrific right like it cuts through some of the most beautiful and important landscapes we have right through the high desert through these very fragile places um and and like it's important i think people understand as well what the border wall looks like right because you've probably seen a photograph of giant ass wall um and that is part of it but they call it the border wall ecosystem and what that involves is the wall itself sometimes a ditch sometimes not a ditch um and then a road that's wide enough for two of the f-150 raptors that

border patrol like to drive um to pass each other and then an access road to that and then generally there's also an access road cut that allows construction vehicles to get to build all of that. So it's not just some spikes in the desert, it's fucking destroying this beautiful part of both Mexico and the United States, right? Now, before we get into some of these organizations, I'm wondering, first off, when did you start reporting on the US-Mexico border? And is there any kind of specific events that you can recall that really kind of ignited your interest in this particular part of the United States and this particular part of our ongoing social conflict? Yeah, I've always been interested in borderlands like academically uh and as part of my

phd um but i guess i've probably about eight or nine years i've been reporting on the border the thing that really sort of uh took it from being like a the border is sometimes i think i write about i did a lot of outdoor writing about the border too right i was very interested in getting more people to go outside in baja california it's amazing um and you should do it but uh what really sort of i guess made me be like oh fuck this is fucking horrible um is the the 2018 quote-unquote migrant caravan right um so i'd been down just just enjoying a weekend uh in uh a little further south and a little further south of tijuana and having there's a really good wine country there. So we've been checking out these,

these wine places and just enjoying ourselves. And we come back and then these people are in what's called the Benito Juarez sports complex. It's just a baseball field and it's raining and it's November and it looks like the fucking like battle of the song in there, you know, it's mud, they're little children. uh like Battle of the Somme in there you know it's mud there are little children and like I've been in these situations before I've seen situations with displaced people before but there was something that just broke my heart about like

um so obviously we're gonna go in right we're gonna see what's going on we're gonna see what we can do to help uh and there were little kids i remember there was this little girl i mean this one still makes me really sad right but she would find me there were thousands of people there every single time i came she would find me uh found me the first day uh and uh she would like uh we'd talk for a little bit about what she was doing and then she was standing like halfway up her little shins in mud and she didn't have anywhere to like shower or be clean you know she was standing like halfway up her little shins in mud. And she didn't have anywhere to like shower or be clean. You know, she was living in a sort of tarp shelter and it just fucking broke my heart. So she used to like plait my hair a lot, so I'd carry her around.

And that was just like this realization for me, like of how cruel this thing is. Shortly thereafter, of course, the police stood in the parking lot of the tommy hillfiger discount store in order to fire tear gas at some of the most marginalized and desperate people uh certainly in that part of the world right and just that it's it's a scene that like yeah that would if you put that in a movie you would be like this is a little bit heavy-handed right having them shoot from the tommy hillfinger at the desperate migrants that's a little bit heavy yeah it yeah it's it's just it's advanced fucking parody of where we are as a society. But yeah, the DHS helicopter is taking off from the Tommy Hilfiger store to fire tear gas grenades at the children who just want a safe place to sleep.

where the Portland police, we were in North Portland, which is in a neighborhood that was like one of the fairly few black neighborhoods in Portland. And the cops went apeshit and started firing impact munitions down Martin Luther King Boulevard. And I didn't catch myself at first. And I was like, the cops are now shooting down Martin Luther King.

Yeah. You've been in and around, like you, you live there obviously. So who are like, who are some of the folks that you've come across that are doing the most to actually help there? And what kind of help like is necessary?

Cause I feel like one of the, one of the things I think is the primary shortcoming of it could happen here as a show so far is that the way Garrison and I phrase it is like a lot of our episodes are, here's a problem. Goodbye. Right. We garrison and i phrase it is like a lot of our episodes are here's a problem goodbye right we're like here's the thing that's bad off we go like so what i guess the two chief questions i think that need to be answered because i'm hoping pretty much everyone here is on board with the border is a nightmare uh something's got to be done what are the kind of things that can actually materially improve people's lives

who are being affected by this border ecosystem? And then who are the motherfuckers who are actually out there trying to unfuck things to the extent that unfucking is doable here? Yeah. So I think just to further make people sad first, if you look up decolonial Atlas southern border, you can find this map of where migrants die when they're coming to united states right and we often it's constructed in the news media is like it's dangerous crossing mexico it is it's it's dangerous coming across a

darien gap sure it is but the vast bulk of people die within a few miles of our southern border right um and that's because especially now with the way we've constructed the border wall uh right before the uh 2020 election donald Trump in a debate made claims about how much border wall he'd built. Like everything else, he was full of shit. So they just tried to build as much as they could between then and the election. So they just skipped the hard parts. They skipped the mountains. They skipped the valleys.

And that often forces people to cross in the most arduous terrain, right? So that's increased the amount of people dying. So we can look broadly at like two categories of support right which are like um i guess like direct aid and then legal aid so um on the legal aid side the guys who guys and girls and other people who who have been really really helpful uh al otro lado to the other side right they're their legal aid group. They were very, very cool during the migrant caravan. Like they, and I realize that's something of a loaded phrase, right? I'm just trying to use a word that people don't understand.

They were there constantly helping people with good cause letters. They were there filing legal briefs on their behalf. As a result of that, many of them were illegally surveilled by the Department of Homeland Security, had their phones taken uh their communications traced their movements traced their network traced etc um they are wonderful people right like they do amazing things with helping people get legal aid um and then you've got the people who are helping people uh while they cross right and there are a number of these mutual aid groups. If you're in a certain region at the border, there is probably someone near you.

I'm no expert on all of them, but you can look at like No Mas Muertes in Arizona, Armadillos. I don't know if they operate also in Texas, but certainly in that California, Arizona area. You can look at Border Angels. Border Angels are probably the biggest, most public-facing one. I don't know if they operate also in Texas, but certainly in that California, Arizona area. You can look at Border Angels. Border Angels are probably the biggest, most public-facing one, and they are fantastic. They're out there making sure that there are caches of water for people who are crossing, making sure that when it's cold at night,

there are warm clothes, and when it's hot, there are clothes suitable for that weather, maybe a new backpack, canned food. They're doing the active stuff that stops people dying um and it's that's invaluable right and it's also important in terms of showing that like they'll often write things i've seen like like you're welcome right welcome to this country or whatever like it's showing that most of us don't agree with this dehumanizing brutalization of migrants that the state is doing on our behalf. And so showing that welcome is very important.

There are lots of indigenous groups. I did ask if I could name them, but they didn't get back to me, so I don't want to. But there are groups within the Tohono O'odham Nation. There are groups within the Kumeyaay Nation. I'm sure there are groups within other tribes whom the border crossed, who lived in this area long before it was a border, who are also out there

helping people um there are also individuals helping people out on their property right um if you if you can't find how to donate to one of those groups you can reach out to me that's fine but yeah i think the work they're doing is invaluable both in terms of like showing people that they are welcome and in terms of saving right? More and more people die at the border every year, especially with things like Title 42, which we can get into with MPP. Yeah, let's talk about what Title 42 is. Sure.

So Title 42, it's part of a public health law. It's very antiquated. I think it was last used in the 1930s. The idea behind it was to stop people with tuberculosis coming into the United States. And if they have an infectious or transmissible disease, I think it's called, then they can be immediately sent back without processing. This was part of a whole suite of things that they used to do to laborers coming north. They would also spray them with all kinds of insecticides, which obviously is not good for the health.

So Title 42, the idea being, you know, like if you present to me at the border, and I'm a border patrol guy, and you're like coughing up a lung, and obviously tuberculous, tuberculous? I don't know. You have tuberculosis. Yeah, tuberculi.

Yeah. Tuberculastic. Then I will send you back and just be like, no, Robert, fuck off until you're healthy. You're going to infect everyone else here, especially if I detain you. Now, what it's being used to do with COVID-19 is to not process migrants, right?

To do what's called catch and release. Just bump them south and let them go. What that means is that these, so normally you could cross, surrender to a CBP agent. That's another misunderstanding. A lot of people will want to surrender, right? They have no intention of not being processed.

For certain countries, there's something called a TPS, which I'll explain in a second, which there will be no reason for them not to be processed. So these people will cross and now they could just get dumped on the other side right doesn't matter if they are a person who is pregnant doesn't matter if they're elderly doesn't matter if they're medically compromised or weak they can't just get dumped what this has meant is that um people who are helping them cross right people who maybe charge a fee for helping them cross are offering like crossings without limits uh you know we'll just try again get somewhere else try again and means, like I said before,

because of the combination of this and then this hostile infrastructure that we're building, right? This border wall system, that people will try crossing in more and more remote places, right? That is when people die crossing. It's when they cry and cross in places

that are hotter, that are more arduous, right? It requires days of walking sometimes. And I've been in that terrain. I spend a lot of my time out there. And for a long time, it's been more or less my job to be outside out there. And it is hard. So if I imagine crossing with everything I need

to start my new life and carrying my child, it's very difficult for me. And I'm more accustomed to it than most. So it's very difficult. And forcing people to just kind of bounce back because when we drop someone in Mexico, right, if they are Guatemalan, Honduran, they don't have any network there, right? It doesn't exactly help.

Like sometimes we like this construct that like the border fuels crime, right? Or like crime, like they talk about like like uh sometimes cartels is far too broadly used nearly always it's far too broadly used uh but this idea that the border funds uh like drug running and organizations such as that well you don't fucking help by dumping someone where they have no other means of making a living right where they're going to be very poor and now they don't have any mates they don't have anyone to go to to ask for help right like i don't blame people for trying to find a way to do something so like uh understandably like if and i don't think and i think it's largely a lie that any significant number of people sort of running drugs across the border are migrants or um you know i think that's that's largely a racist lie uh but leaving people

dislocated there is a recipe for poverty and i can't you know things like crime do happen more i guess when people are poor and don't have any other options if that makes sense if we go back to tps really quickly because i think that's important too temporary protected status right you'll see people on Twitter talking about TPS. What that basically means is that they can't deport you back to a country. So it took Biden an obscenely long time to grant a TPS for the people from Ukraine, right? 500 and something people went into the deportation system between the time in uh like november december when biden's administration started being like there is going to be war in ukraine the russians are going to invade ukraine

they were still actively in the process of sending people back to ukraine at that time it wasn't until about a week into the shooting war that they said okay temporary protected status we won't send you back it exists for other countries uh exists for haiti uh it exists for myanmar burma right um i don't know if it exists for syria i think it does uh but these countries where basically like we won't send you back there um and tps is very important right because it it stops people being deported to places where they will die uh and it's important to understand that like you could have everything right in terms of your asylum application and still be sent back. It's a cruel and very impersonal system. So TPS is important. And if you're into sort of advocating for laws, then it's an important thing to advocate for, I think. Yeah. In terms of more,

I think that's important because we, we,, kind of the electoral side of things is not, does not tend to be our focus here, but it's also not useless. Like the border is one of the areas most clearly where you can see both how advocating in that realm can immediately improve people's lives and also how both sides of the political spectrum use the border as a weapon to hurt people. Yeah, exactly. The border is definitely a stage for both sides of political like look at joe biden right he's coming in he's signing his declaration on the first day i remember the day he was inaugurated i went out to the border wall sat there by myself and like wept because it's just this horrible ugly thing uh there's such a scar on a place that i love um and uh he's done fuck all right he's deported more people than trump and he's he's building his own b He's deported more people than Trump, and he's building his own Biden barrier,

which is the same thing without an anti-client plate. But yeah, like, even if you don't agree with the existence of laws and lawmakers, right, there's this concept that I like a lot called normative anarchism. I think it's Wolf, the guy who wrote it, but like, we can move towards a state doing less cruelty and being a little more free,

and that is a move in the right direction, even if it's not the end goal. And I think the border is a place where you can really make a difference like that, right? Like some small changes in how things are done would reduce the cruelty to people who have done nothing wrong massively. So I think it is an area where even those of us who might not be generally inclined to like electoral stuff, like you can, I think think i don't know if you can make a distance because like so many people in milwaukee are watching fox news and are fucking completely convinced that the border is just uh i don't know

people with guns trying to smuggle children or whatever but yeah it's an area where small changes in policy make a huge like title 42 right not even law. It's an executive or it's not even executive order. It's an interpretation. The wall, right? Most of that shit wasn't built by Congress. It was built by executive order. So like that stuff, I think, is a place where you can affect positive change for people. Now, unfortunately, we've got this giant fucking wall and I don't think it's coming down anytime

soon, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't actively try to make things kinder for people coming here. Now, on the direct action side of things, which I think more of our audience tends to support, one of the most obvious things is just like setting out, as you said, like drops of water, food, equipment. Now, that's kind of, depending on where you are, can be, shall we say, complex from a legal standpoint. Can you talk to that a little bit? Yeah, certainly. on where you are can be shall we say complex from a legal standpoint can you talk to that a little bit yeah certainly so like the obvious case is the one in arizona right which eventually ended up uh the person was vindicated but um i guess vindicated is the wrong word but not didn't go to prison exactly yeah yeah and what he was doing was right from the start but uh yeah it can be complex i think especially if you're in some of these states which are like uh doing culture war right like arizona and texas uh yeah the the cruelty is kind

of the point so if you are doing something to alleviate that cruelty making an example if it was very much in the interest of those culture war politicians and judges and other people uh which is why it's important to do it with a mutual aid group right like these groups are not just like uh randos they are extremely organized i would also just caution that like going out into the desert on your own is extremely fucking dangerous the desert can kill you with heat and day it can kill you with the cold night sometimes on the same day and night right uh this is a hard place i'm not saying you shouldn't go out there you should it. It's an amazing place, but you should be careful. You should go with the group. So if you're living somewhere along the border, there is a group of people who are doing this. They will understand what is legal and correct. Like for instance, if you are not a citizen,

if you're a green card holder, you should probably not go down to the border with jugs of water. You should maybe do some fundraising. You should maybe do something else. And that's fine, right? You're still part of a system which is helping people. But yes, there have been some prosecutions. I think in California, there haven't been any, to my knowledge, for a while. There was also some interesting tech developments. One a long time ago now called the the transborder migrant tool which was

mapping out like what at a time we didn't have the border wall then right but like water caches locations of cbp checkpoints and then i guess it was using google maps to make routes uh which uh it was created by a faculty member who at the time was at the university of california who faced pretty terrible career repercussions for doing it um but there are things like that that people can do too right which you can do from your bedroom if that's your preference if that's how you prefer to help but yeah i would caution about just going out there always look for groups right there are people for whom this is their entire life of activism you can also i'm sure uh i hope i'm not putting a bunch of like work on their plate but talk to alotrolado see what they suggest right talk to who uh alotrolado the other side that's

this legal aid group um you can just call them i'm sure that they agree they think they've been very helpful to me when i've been uh when i've needed help for people i'm working with uh talk to them about what is what is legal and sensible and what it's not, whether it's better to give your money or give your time or what you can do given the resources available to you, I guess. And you can also just show kindness to refugees in your community too. They're probably there. Whether or not they're visible is a different question, but there are places where you can help people. Another one I should mention, actually, just for folks who are inclined to help in a different way, I guess, is people just feeding people.

I really don't think you can ever blame someone for feeding a hungry person. So Food Not Bombs. Food Not Bombs are always cool, right? If you want to do kindness without state, Food Not Bombs, there is one in your area. Look them up. And World Central Kitchen, which is Jose And andres the chef um yeah he's in

ukraine or these guys just got shelled in ukraine that's right yeah yeah a number of them got shelled in kharkiv i think um those people like uh i do understand that he has some labor issues yeah although i think he's he recently like came out and said that he had been wrong on that i'd have to double check but yeah that's impressive like uh i've said this before this dude pivoted his whole life after seeing what happened in haiti to feeding people who are hungry all over the world so i do believe he's capable of change and hopefully he can change and treat his workers with decency and respect as well but anywhere i am right where there is a humanitarian crisis inside the u.s outside the u.s those people are there first they're there before the red cross outside the US. Those people are there first.

They're there before the Red Cross and MSF. They don't seem to get tied up in the bureaucratic shit that most large global NGOs do. Like I've been in refugee camps where MSF and Red Cross are outside not doing anything. Yeah. If you, anywhere I have been where there are large groups of refugees, refugee camps, people dealing with violence,

the most commonly cursed groups are often NGOs. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. There are, you know, people in white lander or people in fancy hotel lobbies, you know, like, and that makes me very angry. I'm very sad, but I don't see that with WCK. Like, uh, I have consistently seen them in just pretty dire situations, you know, like times that, uh, give me bad sleeps, you know, and that they're always there helping people. So then there are also church groups in lots of communities. Like I'm not a religious person, but like, I really can't fault any of these church groups that I've seen coming down from San Diego to Tijuana to feed and help people. But I would probably stay clear of those giant NGOs with your giving. I've just seen them be considered bureaucratic and less effective.

Yeah, I mean, one of the rules, this is harder when it's a conflict far from home and you see some news that makes you want to help, but you don't have any connections. But if you can ever talk to people on the ground there, it's always best to ask them, like, who's actually doing anything? Because sometimes it is MSF, you know, sometimes it is one of these larger organizations. But oftentimes they'll tell you, like, you know, the group when I was in Mosul that got the most consistent praise from people who were, like, living there was the Free Burma Rangers, right? Like there were all these massive international organizations, but when it came right down to it, the people who were like running under gunfire to pull wounded civilians out were, you know, those folks.

Yeah, yeah, those guys do some very brave stuff, definitely. And yeah, normally you can find people on Facebook. Like I've never been in a sort of situation with a lot of displaced people where people were not actively on Facebook. And you can find people there. They just like you, they just want to have a chat. And again, it's nice to have a chat. That's such an important point too, because I think that number one, people are often,

and it's easier, right? Like everyone has limited time, but you kind of leave it to whatever media you trust to connect you to people in these desperate circumstances. And like, people tend to want to connect who are dealing with something like that who are fleeing violence who are and they also are connected like they're not separate from the rest of the world just because they've had to leave their home behind and they're they're generally not excluded from the information networks that we all exist in yeah um yeah i think sometimes they're portrayed as like um we talk about them, not to them, far too often in the media. And that makes me mad, right?

Like, I see that all the time. I see that happening when I'm doing reporting, right? I'll see people hanging out on the peripheries of these camps. I understand some people are worried about COVID or whatever, but so are those people, right? Like, just be safe and be sensible. And yeah, these people want to talk. I remember one thing that always sticks out. Well, they want the same things that we want i remembered so in this 2018 migrant caravan they were moved from

benito juarez sports complex to this old nightclub a bit further south but further away from the border right it was a very weird scene it was this big nightclub with like uh the mirrors and the dancing poles and the disco balls but it had been like mothballs for like 10 years it was all dusty and they had a special room for um people who were pregnant people can people who had had children and and the the young children themselves right they were sort of just to keep them safe um and we were going there and it was weird because there were still like mirrors on the floor um but then i remember these kids you talk to them right you know what do you want and like first of all one kid asked me for a teddy bear

and it just broke my heart. Like, I don't know why it just fucking leveled me. And then they wanted to like, you know, they'd enjoyed the same Disney films that kids here had, right? So my buddy managed to acquire a projector. We went into the ceiling, rigged up this projector and just set up like Beverly Hills Chihuahua playing on one wall of this nightclub. And these kids were like,, and just set up Beverly Hills Chihuahua playing on one wall of this nightclub.

And these kids were like, fuck yeah, it's Beverly Hills Chihuahua. Let's go. They were just kids watching a film like they can be anywhere else. And it's really easy to see them as different or weak. The way they're portrayed in the media is like people without agency. And they're not. They've taken huge amounts of agency to try and improve their lives and it's also so much focuses on these things that aren't like you know medicine food that are necessary but like having a normal moment where you're like a

kid watching a cartoon or playing with a toy is also necessary yeah like these children will be scarred by their experiences right by whatever's whatever's causing them to flee, by the flight itself and by the process of coming into the country. But yeah, we should do everything we can to protect them from those traumatic experiences. And just like, I cannot count the amount of times I have been like shithoused in a game of football by six-year-olds trying to come to the United States, right?

Like, so things like that. I remember someone donated a couple of football goals and I took them down and set them up. And then, yeah, just having those moments of normalcy, those moments of fun, like little plastic ukuleles and stuff, like were very important because it let kids be kids. And then that's, you know, they have every right to do that. Well, James, I think that's going to make a soad for us. You want to throw your pluggables in before we roll out? Yeah. I want to plug, like

I said before, doing things to help people outside of networks and let people have power over people. Do that first, and then you can put my name, James Stout, into Twitter and find me. I have a Patreon by the same thing. I write about the border a lot. You can see it in

if I just plug one popular, P-O-P-U-L-A, I write about the border a lot. You can see it in, if I just plug one popular, P-O-P-U-L-A, I wrote about the 2018 migrant caravan. So you can read my writing there. Feel free to message me if you want to find any of these groups

and you can't. Yeah, that's about all. All right. Well, that's going to do it for us. Go do something good. Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter.

Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows. Presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors

that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how tech's elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people Thank you. Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. I mean, he looks so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere.

Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him.

Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, I'm Jack Peace Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. I'm Jack Peace Thomas, and I'm inviting you to join me and a vibrant community of literary enthusiasts dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories. Black Lit is for the page turners, for those who listen to audiobooks while commuting or running errands, for those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge between the chapters. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Together, we'll dissect classics and contemporary works

while uncovering the stories of the brilliant writers behind them. Blacklit is here to amplify the voices of Black writers and to bring their words to life. Listen to Blacklit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, yes. The podcast has started. Oh, this is the start? This is It Could Happen Here.

This is It Could Happen Here. This is It Could Happen Here. That's right. And you're Robert Evans. We also have Shireen Lani-Yunus and Christopher Wong with us. Christopher? Hi. Yeah, I guess I'm sort of running the show today, even though Robert has done the intro, question mark.

Always with a question mark. That's how the pros do it. You can tell allegedly professionals yeah but speak speaking of professionals uh we have we have karina dominguez with us who is in fact actually a professional and has spent eight years working in reproductive health issues karina welcome to the show and thank you for joining us. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's lovely to have you on. Karina, what's going on? How are things?

Things are okay, I think I can say. They're not great. That doesn't seem true. But they're okay. Yeah, okay. Cool. I pulled a guy out of a crashed truck once and as i was trying to like staunch the bleeding from a cut in his hand i asked how he was and he said okay so i'm guessing it's that

kind of okay you nailed it yeah karina do you want to tell us a little bit about your background and the work that you do and why we desperately wanted to have you on the show? Yeah, I would love to. So again, my name is Karina Dominguez. I am from Chicago, born and raised. I've worked in reproductive health for about eight years, but really what I consider about 15 years or so. I have experience in working in the community in different capacities. I love reproductive health. I consider experience in working in the community in different capacities. I love reproductive health. I consider myself a reproductive health nerd. And it all started when I was a teenager growing up in Chicago, where just in the city life, you see a lot of things that don't really sit well with you. I knew a lot of young girls who were getting pregnant at young

ages, experiencing trauma and specifically sexual trauma and not knowing who to go to or where to go. So these were mostly young girls of color who I cared for a lot. And I immediately knew that I wanted to do more activism and that I needed to do more activism. And the way my activism looks is through my education. So today I have a master's in public health and I also have a bachelor's in public health. And with that education, I've been able to provide sexual and reproductive health counseling. I practiced as a full spectrum doula where I've provided abortion care for people and also provided birthing care for people as well. I led a pregnant and parenting program at a nonprofit for youth experiencing homelessness. And right now I currently manage a sexual and reproductive

health grant where we provide resources to treatment centers in the LA area to integrate sexual and reproductive health for patients and substance use disorder treatment. Wow. Cool. So we are slacking. That was an impressive list. Yeah. I think the thing that made us want to chat with you, we were having a conversation. So when the news first dropped that the Supreme Court was yeeting Roe v. Wade into the sun,

there were a couple of different news agencies that did like in turn you know while talking about what options were going to remain for people that would bring up crisis pregnancy centers which are um shady as hell as i'm sure we're about to talk about but yeah so that's that's kind of why we brought you into what we brought you on initially to talk about i wonder do you want to kind of introduce folks to what those are because Because the gist of it is, if you like Google, how do I like find out if I'm pregnant or like, you know, I'm pregnant and I need help? There's a good chance old Google will take you to one of these places. And they are, shall we say, not what they seem to be. Yes, I think we can exactly say that.

And I am just going to say it in the most direct way I possibly could. A crisis pregnancy center is essentially a fake medical facility that preys on vulnerable people, specifically people who can become pregnant. So yeah, you know, we can use the term fake medical clinic. I, for the purpose just of using the most common term crisis pregnancy center, I'm going to stick to using that term. But yes, there are a lot of concerns about this. And I'm sure our friend Google will pop some up for us really quick. So crisis pregnancy centers usually have names like women's pregnancy center or women's health center, something health center. Pregnancy Center or Women's Health Center, something health center. And it's a very misleading advertisement. So they are anti-abortion facilities that manipulate people into having a full-term

pregnancy. So these places are usually religious oriented. They have a religious agenda and it's not patient led. So some of these larger religious based organizations that fund these, what we think are smaller, tiny clinics are agencies or organizations like Care Net, Heartbeat International, National Institute of Family and Life, Birthright International, and Rama International. So a lot of times you might think you're going to the small little tiny clinic, or maybe it's even like a community medical mobile unit. And it turns out they're backed by big money and bigger agencies. So they typically will implant themselves in communities of color near college campuses and low-income neighborhoods. So what is that saying? That's saying that this is a woman's issue. This is a trans issue. This is an LGBTQIA issue. This is a BIPOC issue, Black, Indigenous, people of color. And it's simply just an issue for everyone.

If you look at like investigations and how they work, you'll run into a number of stories of women who are like, hey, I actually like always intended to go through with my pregnancy. I just needed to like know that number one, know that I was pregnant. I needed to test or something. And these people advertised they would provide that for free or they advertised that they were providing stuff like diapers, you know, basic kind of supplies formula for free. formula for free. And some of them do, most of them do to some extent, but nearly all of them have some sort of like, and this is outside of kind of the abortion aspect access of it, have some sort of fucked up hoops you have to jump through in order to actually get access to any of that stuff. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm really glad that you brought up like the diaper point. I think that is a really essential thing. They don't not give out stuff, right? But it's messier than they want to portray it as. Yeah. Yeah, totally. And it's a form of manipulation,

right? And I think, too, it's a form of manipulation to deem yourself a full-functioning medical facility where they actually don't provide those comprehensive services. And sometimes, you know, they might even say on the outside, like HIV testing, STI testing, HIV testing. And they're simply not evidence-based practices. So what I mean by an evidence-based practice is something like condom use. We know very well at this day and age that condoms are essential to prevent STIs and HIV transmission. So a lot of these clinics, they might even say like condoms don't decrease your chances of STIs. They don't really matter. They're not really doing anything. And that is a really big piece of information that we need to know as the average person,

because that means we have a lot of young people going to these clinics and having even their foundational sexual health education at these facilities. So this is a really, really important thing to take note of. And I would say that, you know, a lot of people, even in my life that have gone to crisis pregnancy centers by accident are, you know, being told that they can do STI testing, HIV testing, and even birth control. And then as soon as you go there, you realize that's not what's happening. Usually it's going to be a lot of pregnancy related services like ultrasounds and pregnancy tests, which we know if you're

an actual clinic, that's, those aren't the only things that someone would need for essential healthcare. But I would say even more like going into the manipulation and the gaslighting that they do within these facilities, which in my eyes is medical violence. They provide even mandatory ultrasounds, make someone sit there to look at the ultrasound. They make fearful videos of misleading information about what abortions are, and sometimes even have someone who's not a medical provider showing what an abortion is in their eyes. And the video may be of a baby whose limbs are being ripped apart. Even giving information like abortions can lead to breast cancer, or if you have abortion, you'll never be able to have a child. And this is your one and only opportunity.

And sometimes even going further, you know, they are sneaky in what they do because they might even have programs that'll say parent program or youth sexual health program. And even with that, they're giving religious-based agendas. And they are telling people misinformation about sexual health. And even so, might even talk about very heterosexual sex, marriage, all of the above. So there is a very specific agenda that is going on here. And we know, too, that a lot of these agencies can be really sneaky with what they're doing because they may even deny that they are a crisis pregnancy center. And even further, if you go on to their website, they might not even have any language

that they're religious based or that they are not providing comprehensive services. So there are a lot of different tactics that are within the manipulative strategies that they use. Yeah, one of the things I've heard a lot about is basically not literally physically forcing, but terrorizing people into signing like fake legal documents saying they won't get an abortion which like really like every description i've heard about that is just like this is just terrorism like that's absolutely um yeah and i i find that to be really interesting i've never heard of that happening, but just because I haven't specifically heard of that does not mean it's not happening. And I think that, you know, they're not all made the same. They all function differently. And I think that's also what is really confusing about them because they're not consistently all doing the same thing. There are still other

facilities that they might do STI testing. They might do HIV testing. And so to hear that is not shocking to me and the manipulative tactics that they are using for people. And yeah, I mean, HIPAA goes out the door, you know, any legal backing goes out the door with these facilities because they are not based on providing patient-led services in the first place maybe this is an ignorant ignorant uh train of thought but if they're providing all of these like free-ish services or like whatever to these people that are desperate and um it sounds like a lot of them are like privately funded by these organizations in the shadows like what how do they benefit like where like what is of them are like privately funded by these organizations in the shadows. Like what how do they benefit?

Like where what is there other than like imposing religion on other people, but like like financially and like I'm confused where. How they're still like able to function. Yes, they function very well and without a problem. And as I mentioned, there's five larger organizations that are funding a lot of these CPCs, but they are also, this is to be noted, they are on the CDC website. They are on the CDC directory as places that provide essential services. So I think that also goes to speak to the confusion around CPCs. And I'm just going to go out on a limb and say, I'm going to give the CDC benefit of the doubt, although they do not deserve that. cdc benefit of the doubt although they do not deserve that and say that um they themselves may not recognize what what these agencies are doing and so i think that's where the awareness

around the actual function of the cpcs and how they even exist in the first place needs to be shut down and awareness needs to be brought about these places. And we know that 13 of them are funded by their states. So they are getting direct government money to be able to function. And then on top of that, also functioning with the backing of those larger organizations. Wow. Are they getting federal funding too like i have some vague memories of like bush administration programs that were funding just since trevor right i mean if i'm not mistaken trump pushed a bunch of federal funds towards these facilities yeah yes yeah i wonder okay sorry go ahead oh no go ahead i was just i was wondering, I wonder if there's one or two things you need to qualify as a...

How do you put it on the website? CDC? They offer services. Maybe it's like, oh, this place has an ultrasound. These are like... This is why this is on... You know what I mean? I wonder if they just pick and choose the bare minimum of things to like qualify to be considered among like people that offer like full fledged care.

But I don't know. It's all a scam. I don't. because I think that would be a really ignorant perspective from the CDC to think that a place that gives a pregnancy test or an ultrasound right away is not necessarily your average healthcare setting. When someone is going into an appointment, typically, you know, they're not getting an ultrasound right away. Typically, your average person who might think they're pregnant and is going into a medical facility is going to do a pregnancy test, sure. But they're not just going to immediately the first 20 minutes you're there do an ultrasound. And especially knowing our healthcare system and the United States, you know, that might require referrals and another facility to get that done. And, you know, that depends on what your insurance is and what you can pay for and et cetera, et cetera. But I think it's a really big red flag to just have a facility that has pregnancy tests and ultrasounds.

have a facility that has pregnancy tests and ultrasounds. That to me is, you know, if I see on a website that those are the only two services that a healthcare clinic is claiming to provide, I'm running away and I'm not going there because that's very odd. Well, and it's very manipulative because it's one of those things, one of the ways in which you can tell is something healthcare related shady as fuck is does it take advantage of the fact that very basic things that you need are extremely expensive? And like ultrasounds, pregnancy tests, this can all be like STD tests, you know, can all be really, really pricey. pricey um and it's just so like it's fucked up that this is kind of how they're funneling religious dollars towards taking advantage of the fact that a lot of people like legitimately some people who use these facilities i don't know what else to tell them because it's like well we don't provide people with a lot of options in this country everywhere you know for some of these services yeah totally and i do want to go into some of

the people doing work and i want to really highlight what they're doing um so i want to give the utmost credit to two people um who i do not know personally but would definitely love to um dr andrea swarton rubber and dr danielle lambert they're both associate professors who I do not know personally, but would definitely love to. Dr. Andrea Swartzenrubber and Dr. Danielle Lambert, they're both associate professors at the School of Public Health at University of Georgia. And they're both co-founders of the CPC maps, which originated in 2018. So yes, there's a brilliant map where you can search these CPCs that are close to you. Yes, there's a brilliant map where you can search these CPCs that are close to you. And in my eyes, this map is truly a piece of gold because I myself have found ones that are in my area and was very beneficial when I was working with clients myself directly

and would refer people to different services. So this is a really great tool for healthcare professionals and social service workers, et cetera, to refer to. And I can't even explain how grateful I am to know that there's ongoing research about the distraught impact of these clinics and the distraught impact they have on our healthcare system and the ability to find an abortion provider. So again, I hope that every service provider can find this map and use this map and really spread awareness around this.

So what I want to highlight and what these two doctors have found is that just to give some more context, every single state has multiple CPCs, multiple, not just one, not two, multiple. There are 2,500 CPCs throughout the United States. And that is obviously a much larger number than the health departments in the United States. And as I mentioned, we know the cdc directory utilizes cpcs on their website and again 13 states are funded or are funding cpcs so their advertisements are going far and wide and to even go further in the state of california the Women's Law Center says that there are 20% more CPCs than there are abortion clinics. So I think in this time, yeah, yeah, we should be scared. That's a really concerning statistic. And especially looking at how we are going to be, and already are, a haven state. We are going to be a haven state for all the

states around us and for people throughout the United States. So what is that saying when we are a haven state, yet we are still competing with our local anti-abortion strategies ourselves? We are still putting up a fight as a haven state. And I think that is so concerning. we are still putting up a fight as a haven state. And I think that is so concerning. And even further, just to give some more statistics, we know that 58% of the clinics that CPCs that did not offer STI testing also will not refer out. We know that only 8% offer HIV testing. we know that only 8% offer HIV testing. And 92% that did not offer HIV testing also did not refer out. So just to summarize those numbers for you, what that data is telling me is that these clinics are not accounting for the health of the pregnant person, nor are they accounting for the health of the fetus if that pregnancy goes full term. And yeah, I mean, I have even, you know, more stats

as you know, your reproductive health nerd of one of my favorite research institutes called the gut mocker Institute, and they are phenomenal and have really great data. And if you haven't checked out their website, you definitely should. But since we're on the bandwagon of talking about religious-based affiliations, we know that 17% of abortion patients are, oh, sorry. Okay. 17% of abortion patients identified themselves as mainline Protestant. 13% as evangelical Protestant and 24% as Catholic. 38% have no religious affiliation, and the remaining 8% reported a different religious affiliation. So let's summarize that. Religiously affiliated people are still seeking abortions too.

Would you look at that? Ignorance is so bliss. We know that abortions are affecting people who are living in poverty and who are low income. So we know 75% of people that are seeking abortions are either living in poverty or are low income. And fortunately, you know, throughout the past, we know that Medicaid has been a really big funder of abortion care. And especially we can say that in California too, that about 24% of abortion patients are using Medicaid and that's throughout 15 different states. So I imagine in this time right now too, that number is probably going to decrease. So, again, talking about a haven state that has these resources, we are probably going to be mixing up how that looks. And knowing that 53 percent of abortion patients pay out of pocket for their procedures is already a very concerning statistic. And so we are seeing

how in our time right now, we have to be looking at different resources for people. We have to put on our activist hats. We have to be supporting our community. And we have to be supporting abortion funds because already 53% of abortions are paid out of pocket. And just to summarize one more point, 88% of people who are using abortion services are going to be using those within the first 12 weeks. So we are needing to see a lot of activism around abortion pill distribution and abortion pill education and what that looks like no the to like piggyback off of what robert was mentioning earlier about how it just feels like they're taking advantage of the fact that like things cost so much money and i feel like if you this work is so important because I don't think a lot of people

know what they're getting into if they're like because we don't have a great education system in general let alone about like reproductive health or like what happens when you get pregnant so if you're a young person or I mean any age and you are desperate or you're feeling shame you don't have support from your community or something, and you see an institution that's like, free ultrasound or whatever. It's like they're preying on this desperation. And I think one of the only things you can do to combat that is try to educate people as much as possible that, I don't know. People are as, they don't have the goodwill and good faith

that they present to have. And I guess it just like ultimately you have to be distrusting of people and maybe that's sad, but it's the truth. Yeah, definitely. And I will say, I feel like I saw that as a service provider. So as I mentioned, I worked in homeless services specifically with youth homeless services. And you see that so much. You see how there is medical oppression for people of color. There is medical manipulation and violence for so many people in vulnerable situations. And as someone that has accompanied many people to abortions and births, I have observed that myself. And I have seen how more people than not are going to experience some type of medical manipulation. And especially if you are living in poverty, especially if you're a person of color, especially if you're LGBTQIA.

poverty, especially if you're a person of color, especially if you're LGBTQIA. This issue does not just stop, you know, with CPCs. If we take out all the CPCs, we also have to address so much of the institutionalized racism and all the things that exist around reproductive health, you know, starting at how to get contraceptives to when can you have children and how can you be a parent? And that never ends throughout the cycle, you know, and that parents, even after they have babies, even if they are a person of color, even if they are LGBTQIA, you know, they are still told how, when, where they're going to parent. And there's so much control over that rhetoric for people. So, you know, I mean, that even goes back to me thinking about the sterilization trials that

happened against USC in the 70s and how women were forcibly sterilized. And, you know, that has nothing to do with CPCs, but instead we're seeing that institutions are finding this control and having these agendas, and it is not serving our society. It is not serving our health, and instead it is creating more trauma in our communities. And crisis pregnancy centers are just one of many layers of medical oppression that we are witnessing in today's world. As a person who was working in homeless services, I was program planning for a lot of the resources that we were able to provide access to for my clients. So all of my clients at that time when I was running the pregnant parenting program at a nonprofit, they were either pregnant and or parenting while also experiencing their housing insecurities. So I strive to find what the proper resources were for them to support them in every trauma informed way I possibly could, and that youth-friendly. So there was a local

agency that was very, very close to where I worked. And their services always kind of felt like limited to me. So I met with them specifically to inquire because they were always trying to find some type of partnership with us and would knock on our door or call me so i finally was able to give them some of my time um and so their services always felt limited and non-comprehensive and i think that is the the biggest kind of like takeaway um they always gave me really weird reasoning why they didn't provide birth control or STI testing. And based on their answer, as I mentioned, I just did not allow the partnership to thrive. So when I did more research, I actually confirmed from another service provider that they're from another agency

that they were indeed a CPC. Before I could spread the word, they also already had several partnerships with other homeless service providers. So they wiggled their way in. And these other homeless service providers were also working with young vulnerable clients. So one day I was actually invited by another agency to come to this presentation where I didn't realize happened to be the CPC. I didn't realize happened to be the CPC. The CPC was presenting at this organization and it was one of their outreach workers explaining what their services were. So I took it upon myself to make sure that I sat in that meeting and I asked questions in the room with the other service providers. I think there were about 30 other service providers that were present.

And I asked out loud, why doesn't your clinic provide birth control? And the woman from the CPC, who was the outreach worker, said, we can't give pap smears, so we're unable to provide birth control. If you know anything, side note, if you know, yeah note if you know i yeah i already see the the questioning which i'm glad i received that reaction because that is the exact reaction you should be audience those of us with uteruses when huh yeah all of our heads tilted and our eyes were squinting exactly please explain how that math doesn't work yeah yeah exactly side note for all the listeners if you know anything about health care you know that a pap smear is not associated with being able to be prescribed birth control

so as someone that has background in health care has has a master's in public health, worked as a doula, I continue to push back during the presentation. And it was very, very clear that I was on to something. So this woman, again, she would always try to, like, come around, give me pamphlets, try to have us partner and say she really want to work with us and our youth. She stopped after that presentation. I can tell you that. But anyway, so I keep going. I reach out to the person who organized that presentation for the CPC outreach person to attend and speak at. So I was like, I need to get to the bottom of this and I need to spread this word and tell people, hey, you're getting people from CPCs to come and speak to you to advertise your services. So I CC'd a lot of the other service providers, and I expressed my genuine concern for the lack

of evidence-based comprehensive care they provided. But unfortunately, the person who I emailed said, clients need to make sure those decisions are their own so they can decide if they want to go or if they don't want to go. We can't force them to say yes or no to go to a health care facility. So I responded by asking, but what if you thought you were seeing a doctor for your health care needs and then it turns out the health care provider is providing misinformation and might not even be a health care provider? misinformation and might not even be a healthcare provider. I never got a response from them, but I still continue to make sure that I was reaching out to everyone at that meeting and just raising awareness behind it. And then I wanted to take it to, I wanted to take it a notch up. So I called both of this, both of the locations of the CPC. One is located in Westwood, side note, next to UCLA. The other one was in South LA, side note, community of

color. Both of my calls led me to the person on the phone telling me that they don't know where to send me for an abortion and that they didn't know what Planned Parenthood was, what they did, or where they were located when I specifically asked. So they were obviously circumventing the ability to even talk about abortions and what it was. And that was all the concern that I genuinely needed. So in my present day, I there are currently three treatment centers that are using this crisis pregnancy center as a resource. So hopefully that means more to come because I will be working on this. And in this scenario, what I am doing as an activist and as a person who cares for my community is I will be educating these treatment centers about what crisis pregnancy centers are and how they can avoid them and what comprehensive

services actually look like have there been more sort of widespread like organizations who are working to like a let people know what they are and then be also trying to get them like not to be funded absolutely there are and we need to shout them out um there are there is an abortion fund um in california called access they are wonderful um they provide abortion advocacy and awareness and education and they also provide direct services and fund different, they fund abortions in different capacities. So they might be funding the abortion services, the lodging, the transportation, and even a doula. And they partner with a lot of other agencies that are doing the work. The agency is called Reproductive Transparency Now, and they are a Chicago-based nonprofit. They provide a lot of information, data, awareness, research to raise awareness

around what CPCs are and why we should be avoiding them. And I think I can say that I have the same goal as them in my personal life, but to ensure that they do not exist and are all shut down. So they are wonderful. I would highly suggest looking into reproductive transparency now and also active, sorry, access reproductive justice who are doing a lot of really great work. And then I also do want to squeeze in other resources for people as well. Please. Yeah. And, you know, as I mentioned, first and foremost, I think the number one thing we need to know is that crisis pregnancy centers should not exist in any capacity. But if you are a person who's providing resources, who is working with

clients who works in healthcare, treatment centers, whatever it be, please utilize crisispregnancycentermap.com. Again, this is the website that was created by two associate professors at University of Georgia. And I want to make sure that this spreads far and wide because it will be the matter of providing referrals and circumventing CPCs. from the information that I've been speaking on is from the CrisisPregnancyCenterMap.com and from Reproductive Transparency as well. So first and foremost, that map is a necessity. Another resource that I would like to share to be able to find your state's abortion fund is abortionfunds.org. And you can search state by state. So, you know, I'm in California. So that's going to be access again, an organization that is an abortion fund, but they do more than fund abortions. I also really encourage people to find their local evidence-based doulas, midwives, women's health practitioners near them. And I know that there's a lot of fear existing right now due

to the inappropriate politicians that are making disgusting decisions, but know that abortion pills can be accessed and there are people that can help guide you through. So I would say making sure that we are accessing the resources on a website called plan C pill dot com. It's a great resource where you can find where to purchase abortion pills and where to seek medical and legal support as well. So if you have a question about how to take medical abortion pills or you need to understand the legality of your state and the area near you, you can look on this website as a resource. I just also want to emphasize like what community care looks like right now. If you are a person who can get pregnant, this is truly a time to seek preventative care.

And I know that that's a loaded can of worms for a lot of people. So I just I really want to plug this in. If you would like to learn about pregnancy prevention, you can take a look at bedsider.org to assess your needs. you can take a look at bedsider.org to assess your needs. I would highly recommend pairing that with talking to a provider who understands your lifestyle and can support you with finding one that works best for you because every single contraceptive is going to look a little different. If you're a person who does not like birth control, I want you to know to please still seek preventative methods, whether that's a barrier method or whether that's more so of a holistic method like fertility awareness method, I encourage you to still speak to someone you can trust to

ensure you're using that method correctly. And again, there are doulas and midwives that can help guide you in the right direction for holistic practices. And to continue on to my community, my community kind of recognition. I hope that this is also time where if it's feasible for you to, if you can't yourself, find friends and family that you trust and people around you to either receive yourself or to get it from other people. um, to either receive yourself or to get it from other people, um, have pregnancy tests around you and make sure that if you feel like you might be pregnant, um, whether you are using an actual method or if you're not using a method currently, make sure you at very least have pregnancy tests around you. Um, so that, you know, you can detect early on if you are pregnant, um, normalize buying your friend's pregnancy test for their birthdays. I have, we just have to normalize that as a community and normalize buying abortion pills

in case someone you know might need them in the future. Or it might be someone that you don't know who could use them and to have that accessible if that is feasible for you financially. And then, yeah, I think just just to summarize like this is truly a time for community support and when the government doesn't support us we we need to figure out unfortunately how and um if you got the ability go get a go get go get snipped uh go get snipped there's options out there there's options I provide

vasectomies by the way if you can just find me in my house I'm not good at it yet but 15-20 more people I'm gonna figure it out oh that's what that room is for that makes sense I got one of those sharpening

wheels and my butter knives are pretty fucking... They got a good edge. They got a good edge these days. Genuinely incredibly disappointed you're not using the machete for this. This feels like a betrayal. Well, there's other reproductive health care I use the machete for, but

that does have to do with crisis pregnancy centers, actually. Well, I'll have a bunch of referrals for you then. I know where to send them. That kind of leans into another topic I'm covering today, unfortunately.

Well, thank you so much for coming on and for talking to us. This has been very enlightening. I wish it wasn't such a bleak subject, but people need to know the fuck's going on. People needed to know this a lot earlier. the frustration of like the rest of us, life's hard enough. There's like so much going on. People are like busy trying to, trying to get by trying to do their lives,

trying to like find pieces of happiness in the world. And there's this fucking group of the worst people in the country that have just made this made fucking access to reproductive healthcare up for everyone, the focus of their entire life for 30 years and unfortunately now we have to like do that make the opposite the focus of our lives because we kind of just not all of us obviously like you've been in this fight for a while but most of us kind of we're not paying as much attention as needed to be paid. Like most people in the, and I'm not trying to throw blame on folks, but like clearly the majority of people in the country who support access to reproductive healthcare

weren't paying enough attention, you know, like that's the, that's the only way to frame it. Totally. And it's almost as if we are picking up the mess that others are, are creating. if we are picking up the mess that others are creating. Yeah. And, you know, after experiencing COVID as a society, everyone's a public health professional now and a doctor.

So it's nice to see. I am a doctor. Clearly, yeah. I'm sending referrals to you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. And people have a lot of things to say. And with that being said, I'm really glad that these are conversations being had. I'm glad that friends around me now

who I've never known to talk about reproductive health are going there and talking about it. And also opening the door up for people like me to talk about evidence-based practices and what the reality is and who's doing the work and everything that focuses around reproductive health. So I appreciate this conversation. I appreciate that there are podcasts discussing this information. It's necessary. And these issues are not going

anywhere. And, you know, we're going a little backwards. So I really appreciate your time on this. Yeah, thank you for coming on the show. And all right, everybody, that's the fucking episode. Go do something else. Welcome. I'm Danny Trejo. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures.

I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how tech's elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose.

This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology.

I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him.

Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jack Peace Thomas,

the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. I'm Jack Peace Thomas, and I'm inviting you to join me in a vibrant community

of literary enthusiasts dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories. Black Lit is for the page turners, for those who listen to audiobooks while commuting or running errands, for those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge between the chapters. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Together, we'll dissect classics and contemporary works while uncovering the stories of the brilliant writers behind them. Black Lit is here to amplify the voices of Black writers and to bring their words to life. Listen to Black Lit on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Oh!

All right, well, the show's started. I like that these intros are getting shorter every time. Yeah, we've gotten it onto one syllable, so there's not much room where we can go from there. Look, you know what? An honest man only needs one syllable. Sometimes less.

Sometimes half a syllable. We'll eventually get this down to just grunts. That's really what I'm moving towards, is an entirely... Shouldn't we be moving towards telepathy? Yeah, telepathy. We don't even record a podcast. We just put up...

Yeah, just transfer the information instantaneously just a blank audio file that says now think about farming and i must say that that sounds very um that sounds very sci-fi and um that's my way of doing a slick segue here because today we will be talking and i'm very excited to talk about this um she's one of my favorite authors um you know i really enjoyed discussing ideas present in all huxley's work but this one has a special place in my heart today we'll be taking a look at octavia butler's parable of the soul and parable of the talents and the themes and ideas present within yes back at you again with another podcast banger but first of all um

hi i'm andrew um sometimes known as saint andrew i'm kind of trying to rebrand as something else, still figuring that out. And you can find me on YouTube at Saint Andrewism. But this episode is not about me and my branding. This episode is about Octavia Butler. Born in 1947 and growing up in segregation-era America, Born in 1947 and growing up in segregation-era America, she became an award-winning sci-fi author with a lot of influences and a lot of themes and ideas being covered in her work. the fact that she was able to not only break into it but also present some things that haven't been explored before in with angles that haven't really been explored before um really um has touched a lot of people she was somewhat afrofuturist but she was also very much um a lot of her stories really blended um a lot of people have a lot of different backgrounds and and histories and she always managed to work aspects of herself into her main characters um she was a big critic of hierarchies um which really draws me to her and she also very relatably has at times struggled with

writer's block and depression she wrote over two dozen essays speeches short stories and novels in her time on this earth but unfortunately she had a stroke and died in 2006 one of the or other two of the books that i've had the most of whose that have had the most impact on me and of course i haven't read her entire bibliography yet but i hope to get to it um is power of the sewer yeah right and you know i think a lot of people have heard about it again a lot more relevance after, as climate catastrophe continued to accelerate, as we drew closer to the year that the book is set in and with regard to the second book,

as we had Trump come into office. And I'll get into why that's relevant in a bit in the first book um just to give a brief synopsis global climate change and economic crisis has led to a whole set of social crisis and chaos in the early 2020s um the book is set in californ California and they are struggling with pervasive water shortages and masses of poor people will do basically anything to live to see another day. Everybody is struggling. So basically today, in this setting, 15-year-old Lauren Olamina lives inside a gated community with her preacher father family and neighbors sheltered somewhat from the surrounding chaos however when we hear gated community now we think of you know like really rich people but in this case gated community is just like a regular community

that had to put up a bunch of walls to prevent like pyromaniacs from like yeah it's like a it's a suburb that used to be like a well-off suburb but as things got worse it just turned into people hiding behind their walls because they were scared of poor folks right like it's there's an element of it that almost reads like a slasher movie in the opening of the book which is one of the things that's really compelling about it yeah yeah yeah yeah they really um she really gets you invested in the setting and in the character early on and part of what really gets you invested in lauren as a protagonist is the fact that she suffers from a unique vulnerability or strength depending on how you look at it um oftentimes vulnerability and that is hyper empathy syndrome um which is basically that she's able to feel others emotions others pains so when others are very very sad she feels very very sad uh when others are in pain she feels that same excruciating

pain um and so on and so forth and so she has to sort of navigate this chaos world while dealing with this um with this um disorder that she's struggling with at the same time though she's also navigating faith and the idea of faith and philosophy because her father's like a preacher and he is the preacher of the alligator community and so she has grown up in the church but she also has found issues in um the religion that she grew up in places where she thinks it has sort of led people astray and that's kind of also what has drawn me to lauren as a character because i too you know have had to negotiate and navigate that whole religious realm and so that's basically the setting she's in this community um it's chaos on the outside she's navigating her hyper empathy syndrome and she's also dealing with the ideas of

religion and change and so on and so forth so as she's there um sort of thinking internally she's keeping this journal and she's developing this new system of thought which she calls earthseed and we're going to get into earthseed but it basically shapes uh the decisions that she makes and the outcome of both books and as well as how they progress throughout the second book places her in i'm really trying not to spoil which is difficult to do because the second book leads directly after the first book and so on and so forth but i'll try to speak in broad brushes because i really think people should go and read it as blind as possible um lauren of course eventually we will get into spoilers by the way so i'll i'll try to let folks know when we get into that but in the second book um lauren is working

on a community um founded on her faith earthseed and they begin to face persecution i'll say after the election of this ultra conservative president who vows to quote make america great again being you know a young black woman in a minority religious faction in the united states of america, her colony becomes a target of President Jarrett's reign of terror. And at the same time, Lauren's future daughter is navigating the discovery of the mother that she didn't know through the journals that her mother kept through the years.

And I think I'll leave it at that. There are a lot of themes that, you know, Butler covers in these texts. And in fact, I've seen them described as Butlerian, which I would agree with, because she covers them in other books of hers as well in different ways um she talks about poverty and slavery and freedom just what perseverance she navigates the this idea of community and what community means what how community is both a balance of inclusion and exclusion at the same time and also the whole cycle of creation destruction and rebirth that really defines human history right now well in that books in the setting of that book slavery has made

a comeback more than it already has you know you have these extreme forms of debt slavery and marital slavery and probably even plantation slavery I believe plantation slavery is mentioned in the second book

and of course this slavery is inflicted upon the poor. Yeah, and a lot of like company town style slavery, right? Where people are like bound to a specific location because of their employer who protects them

in this increasingly dangerous bandit filled world. Yeah. Exactly. And in this world, you know, race remains a factor, even though

these books are written in the 80s and 90s, I believe. Parable of the Sower is 93 and Parable of the Talents is 98. using the same phrase Trump would win the presidency on, what is it, 24 years before the start of his campaign? Hard to overstate the degree to which she was ahead of the curve on a lot of things. Because, I mean, to be fair, she knew America. Oh, yeah. You know, she grew up in segregation-era America.

She had to deal with um her mother was a domestic laborer and so she had to go in with her mother in these rich white families places through the back door um and you know obviously that would have shaped how she saw herself and herself in relation to the wider world through to america as an idea and so i think that as she's writing of this you know sort of horrific future she's drawing a lot from her horrific past or rather america's horrific past of which her history is a part so lauren who is in some ways octavia butler's self-insert um spends a lot of time in the book in both books allying with people who are also minorities, who come from mixed backgrounds, people who tend to be overlooked by the dominant Christian, religious, right, white order. Because I believe she finds some sense of safety and strength in people who have been so maligned slavery also ends up affecting

lauren's community too um in many ways that i don't want to spoil but despite it all the theme of perseverance is really what carries the story along. Lauren ultimately is the archetype of the perseverer. You know, she preaches a sermon on the importance of perseverance. She tries to get others to see the importance of hard work and she sticks to her goals no matter what happens. And a lot happens that would quite honestly discourage a lot of people to put it lightly and yet she perseveres and so to tie that in as well to american history particularly in the first book she ends up having to make a journey north to northern california and throughout that journey she meets with other people and interacts with other people she makes allies and avoids enemies

and you could honestly draw some parallels to the underground railroad of course it's not an exact one-to-one but in the sense of having to work with people along the way to progress out of a terrible situation, a hellish situation, for the hope, not the guarantee, but the hope of some form of salvation when you get to the end of the journey. doesn't do it alone. She does it with others. And that's kind of what keeps her hope alive. But it's not just external. She has a lot of intrinsic motivation to persevere, which is driven by her philosophy. I mean, I think one of the things, because there's a lot of meaning in why she picks the parable of the sower and the parable of the talents for, and it's pretty obvious in the context of the books. She's not like hiding it under layers or anything.

But one of the things that in particular the second book deals with, I mean, in the first book too to a degree, is kind of the pointlessness of responding to dystopian change in society by just like hunkering down in a bunker and trying to hide from it and protect your family. Like one of the reoccurring themes is the degree to which that doesn't work. And one of the things that's really interesting about this is a dystopian novel. This is a novel that is both of these novels are kind of imagining the collapse of a lot of aspects of American society, but it is not at no point does

the united states really collapse in these books and and even like as much as authoritarianism is present at no point is the government completely taken over and completely under the control of like a unified fascist regime or anything yeah like elections are still happening campaigns are still going on the police still exist but you, you still have to pay them to, you know, for them to pay any attention to you. They're not really opposed by it, but it's, again, it's this thing that we are actually dealing with where collapse doesn't look like, okay, everything's fallen apart. And now it's whoever's got the strongest group of buddies who can do their best in the wasteland. It's like, no, no, no. It is about groups of people trying to navigate in an increasingly dysfunctional state. And the only way to actually survive that is survival is complicated.

It's never as simple as just like picking a good farm to hide on. You know, that's not going to work out for you. Exactly. I just want to point out as well that as dysfunctional as things are, people are still going to work. Not just the people who are, you know, in company towns or in debt bondage, but even Lauren's who are you know in company towns or in debt bondage but even lauren's father you know he takes his bike every day and rides out into that chaos to go and work for a wage to come back and to try to support his family and of course in this gate community we see that

their attempts to stay gated you know it's ultimately futile like the rich have their high security communities and they're able to escape in helicopters when anything happens but they have no security even in this illusion of security and that hunkering down strategy they were taken wasn't working and the first half of the book really shows why half of the book really shows why yeah it's um it's it's a it's a book about collapse by somebody who's uh who who grew up in a situation where her her childhood had a lot of elements of the collapse that many particularly like uh many folks are concerned about now like that's what she grew up in was there's no there's no protection violence can

come from all sides and is random um and you have no there are no guarantees in this like world that you've come into which is this thing that like people are freaking out about now as we encounter kind of aspects of the world order that we had grown up with that we feel like are falling apart. And I think the thing that's so compelling about Butler is her books kind of are coming from the perspective of someone for whom that order and that world were never real. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why her contributions to sci-fi are so valuable. Because a lot of these sci-fi writers are just regular privileged white guys, and they just come with that experience. And it's an often repeated critique of sci-fi. You see it in tweets and so sometimes, where a lot of it is just like particularly like alien related sci-fi it's like whoa

what if the things that white people did to other people happened to white people you know like this whole idea that these alien invasion fears and alien invasion stories are just like what if colonialism but to white people

to rich countries you know another part of the reason that the um attempt to hunker down and stuff and basically exclude others um from their community failed is because and lauren writes this in her diary exclusion breeds resentment among the excluded so even though lauren's neighborhood while you know gated and wall and stuff was not particularly rich just the mere fact that they had those walls up basically signaled to the outside world that they had something to hide some sort of resources they wanted to safeguard even if the only thing they had to safeguard were themselves because a lot of the members of the community were you know unemployed and extremely poor that alone sort of a beacon drawing people to

eventually attack and that's a slight spoiler but yeah and you know despite the problems that exclusion ends up causing Lauren as she realizes that her community

could not handle that approach even then as she's progressing north and stuff and she's debating with herself you know who to bring into her fold exclusion and inclusion they they play a role. She has to form bonds and stay safe. But at the same time, the bonds that she forms could put her in danger. If she's betrayed or if the people that she invests in end up being harmed in some way. Because the harm that they experience will ultimately affect who as well so as lauren is making her way up north she is continuing to wrestle with this idea of inclusion and exclusion because as she's progressing north in hopes of you know building a community of some kind creating joining forming a community of some kind she's also forming and establishing

her religion like i mentioned before it played a major role in the community that she came from and in fact novel points out that one of the reasons people are attracted to you know religion to christianity in this chaotic time and in general really is because it provides hope and hope in the form of an afterlife and hope is what people really really need in these hellish 2020s that they are dealing with the lauren comes to realize that the hope and the hope in the afterlife ultimately isn't enough for the people that have invested so much into it um one of the people in the community um ends up despite being a staunch believer that um trigger warning by the way for suicide um despite being a strong believer that you know suicide is a sin and i was sending straight to hell she is so lost hope and can no longer trust in has been dealing with so much pain that she

ends up taking her own life and she takes her own life and as lauren remarks she takes her own life knowing um or at least believing the pain hereafter and yet she finds it more of a reprieve than the pain she was experiencing here now and so as lauren is witnessing these things happening around her um is dealing with you know loss and her baptism and her father's commitment to the church she is continuing to develop the idea of earthseed and she begins to contrast earthseed from christ with christianity and particularly in the sense of how the two religions address hope and change In the sense of how the two religions address hope and change. In Christianity, you know, they have the hope of the afterlife against this brutal life-life.

Now life. Whereas Earthseed simply presents the central principle. God is change. That's the first principle of Earthseed. Second is that shape God. So first you have to recognize and accept that change is inevitable, often destructive, but you could also recognize you have the power to shape it.

And so from that comes the third principle, which is to pursue the destiny. The destiny being the establishment of humanity on other worlds. And to be quite honest, this is one aspect of of the philosophy of earth seed that i think i i diverge from um lauren of course has a lot of focus on the heavens as in the cosmic heavens and scattering earth seed which is you know humanity across you know all these different planets establishing ourselves in different worlds but i feel as though the destiny is in a way i wouldn't say destruction i think it's it's a a misplaced um a misplaced hoop i guess i mean there's that's kind of one of the points of the

book right because there's in especially in the second book there's a lot from the perspective of her daughter that kind of shows how as as much her philosophy is a really understandable and in some ways admirable adaptation to the completely fucked up time she was born into it's also in the same way that a lot of other people's philosophies become you know and that her parents and stuff uh are earlier in the first book it's a way for her to kind of justify not paying attention to the people in her life and not, not taking proper care of them. Cause she's got this thing that's bigger than them. Yeah. She works.

Yeah. Um, and you really, by the, by the end of the second book, you really have to sort of contend with the fact that, you know, you sort of have to grapple with how things with her daughter will handle.

And yeah, I guess I'll leave it at that. Um, yeah. And yeah. Um, daughter will handle in the end i guess i'll leave it at that um yeah and yeah um that's part of it i mean she's so dedicated to this cause to this new religion of hers um and you know she's recruiting people into it you know she's telling people this hope you know that follow earth sea believe in a destiny eventually you know, that follow Earthsea, believe in a destiny, eventually, you know, space is going to become the real-life heaven. We could actually get out there and make a new start for ourselves. And that's part of it as well. Part of the whole idea of the destiny is, you know,

a fresh start for humanity, a sort of a maturation of humanity. This idea that, you know, once humanity establishes itself in other worlds that it would have grown up as a species yeah and it's one of the things that i i really respect about these books that i think a lesser writer wouldn't have been able to pull off is that the degree to which that beating you in the head with it you see her as first failed by the philosophies and ideologies of her parents generation and by the um the systems that people had gotten stuck in she's very much a character who grows up in a world where all the adults are stuck um. Essentially like a system that has become a death cult. And she has to figure out a way out of it, which she comes to believe in so much that in her own way, she becomes stuck in that new thing. And it renders her unable to see certain things that are important. see certain things that are important. And the book never portrays her as completely right or completely wrong, because that's just not how civilization works. Things just change over time.

And, you know, the ideology that her parents and the adults are all stuck in, in the beginning of the book is an ideology that worked to a degree at some point in the past, which is just it's it's it does a really good job of showing a number of things, which is kind of what it's like to be a kid realizing that the adults have fucked you, what it's like to become radicalized and realize that the world doesn't have to be the way that it is and what it's like to let that radicalization lead you somewhere to where you miss important things. Like there's so much going on in the evolution of what the characters believe in this book that is just masterful from a storytelling standpoint.

Yeah, and I mean, the second book really does a good job showing her sort of blindness as well when it comes to things going on because what ends up happening one of the worst incidents in that second book is something that

of course not to victim blame but it is something they could have prepared for a bit more a lot more actually yeah it's it's they're good books they are books that you will if you're like me you will start reading them and you will get really into the first book and then you'll take a 10 minute break to like check the news and something will send you into a panic spiral and you'll read the next two books getting increasingly depressed it's good it's good

but the next book because i mean the third book never released yeah she never quite got to make it yeah i'll get into that as well in a bit and how it ties into the destiny right yeah but just to reiterate you know first principle god has changed. God is not a person. He doesn't love or hate or watch over us or know us. It just is. Second principle, shape God. God is malleable. God is power, infinite, irresistible, inexorable, indifferent.

And yet God is pliable, trickster, teacher, chaos, clay. And truly emphasizes that change is neither good or bad but it is potential and we could and we have a choice to either be a victim of change a victim of god or we can become a partner of god or we can become a shaper of god or we could just stay as God's plaything as change is pre it's unavoidable but our actions can shape its direction and speed

in the end change prevails and there's a comfort in that because once we understand that we can return that effort the inevitability of change can be

what thrusts us forward and I think people who are invested in activism in organizing just revolutionary work i think there are aspects of food see that i think would be very motivating very impactful very energizing because despite

you know how circumstances play out um there's a recognition that we are never entirely disempowered. You know? And so, like, just the last point I want to get into about the destiny. I think that's what would make me, if I were to be in this world, I think that's where I would diverge from the Earthseed Orthodoxy. Because, I mean,uren talks about how you know history is just this repetitive thing we have all these wars and kill a bunch of people and impoverish others and spread disease and hunger and her whole thing is just because that's how

it's always been that's being we have to accept that we can choose to do more, make something more of ourselves. And to who making something more of ourselves is establishing ourselves in other planets. So if she is earth seed orthodoxy, I suppose I'm an earth seed Protestant. You're reformed. You're earth seed Martin Luther nailing your theses to

the door of her house in Seattle. Exactly. I would be a reformer of the destiny in the sense that I think the destiny could be created in a heaven here on Earth. Rather than pursuing a cosmic heaven. I don't think it's even something that

Lauren, at least I don't recall Lauren ever grappling with the possibility because she really is fixated on this cosmic idea. I don't think she grapples with the possibility that humanity can mature, quote unquote, here on Earth. or spend much time thinking about things like ecosystem restoration or you know changing the pushing back against the the government or the economic system that is impoverishing and inflicting violence upon people she's just really fixated on the destiny and that's when i get into the third book and things i learned about the third book when I was researching for this episode Butler actually planned on exploring the fulfillment of the destiny in the third book um parable of the trickster in fact she intended to have a seven part series so the third book would have been near the middle as the story would have focused on another woman named Imara

who is living on an earth seed colony in the future on a planet called Bo, far away from earth. Quote, it is not the heaven that was hoped for, but gray, dank, and utterly miserable. Everybody is homesick.

Homesick, not just in like, oh, I haven't been home in a while kind of thing. Homesick in the sense of like you know when someone is like an amputee and they have this sort of phantom limb sensation yeah this homesickness is like a phantom limb pain uh a neurological debilitation it's like trying to graft humanity onto a new planet.

And it's like if humanity were a branch and this new planet was a tree, and both the tree and the branch are kind of rejecting each other. And so she never really got very far into writing Parable of the Tricksters. In fact, she had a lot of different ways of approaching it a lot of different manuscripts that she got a couple pages into and then discarded

so in some versions the colonists end up having creeping blindness in others they get this telepathy in other versions she has to solve a murder. In other versions, she becomes a ghost. Sometimes she's an Earthseed skeptic.

Sometimes she's a true believer. Sometimes she's a hyper empath. Sometimes she's cured of it. Sometimes the planet itself is filled with giant dinosaurs. Other times, small animals. Other times, intelligent aliens. And there's also this idea, sometimes the planet itself is filled with giant dinosaurs other times small animals other times intelligent aliens um and there's also this idea this i would say very twilight zone-esque idea that the aliens that they do encounter are tokens of their escalating collective madness

and so the whole idea of power of the trickster and would have been the subsequent books was you know the continuation of the concept of choice choosing to either you know live together work together struggle together or you know fight and scheme and lose their minds break down die and murder alone in a speech to the un in 2001 that would be like five years before she passed away i think she died in i think i said 2006 she speaks about how before she even like started working on the first parable novel she wanted to write a novel about a utopian civilization where everybody had a kind of hyper empathy but then and she figured it'll be a utopian civilization where everybody had a kind of hyper empathy but then i should figure it'll be a utopian society because everyone would be inclined to you know behave in a more

pro-social way because any anti-social activity they would have you know inflicted upon others would be inflicted upon themselves immediately but then she realized it wouldn't work because sharing pain the threat of shared pain doesn't necessarily make people behave better towards another she points to the the popular painful sports of you know like boxing and american football you know and so she recognizes that this idea of everyone being a hyper empath could cause a lot of trouble i mean if everyone feels each other's pain who wants to be a dentist you know who wants to be a nurse um and so she discards that idea and she basically created lauren who is a lone hyper empath in a world that is empathy deficient.

Ultimately, I think Butler gets to the heart of, you know, a lot of the issues that we are dealing with. She grapples with a lot of questions that should still be explored. The idea of inclusion and exclusion, that balance when, you know, developing community, concept of perseverance, concept of hope, the creation and destruction and rebirth of, you know, really life and just what makes life, life. I guess I'll wrap things up with a quote. Does tolerance have a chance? Only if we want it to. Tolerance, like any aspect of peace, is forever a work in progress, never completed.

And if we are as intelligent as we'd like to think we are, never abandoned. That's it. God has changed. Shape God. Peace. Well, I think that's about as good a line as any to end on.

Go read Octavia Butler if you haven't. Check her out. Go to the library. Her shit's all over the library. Libraries are filthy with Octavia Butler books. You'll find it. Or steal it off the internet.

She's not going to mind. Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow Broth. Thanks for listening. terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturno on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999,

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