It Could Happen Here - Luddism, part two. Ft. Andrew

Episode Date: November 17, 2023

Andrew and James consider the impacts of Luddism in organizing, the neo Luddite movement, and the costs and benefits of technology for working people today.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Call Zone Media. media welcome back to it could happen here i'm andrew siege and you can find my stuff on my youtube channel andrew is on i'm joined once again by james uh getting no less awkward as we go uh hi andrew i'm excited to learn about uh what we're going to learn about today. Yes, we're picking up where we left off by tackling the Luddites of today. In our previous episode, we unraveled the story of Luddites who stood against the encroaching forces of the Industrial Revolution, and more specifically, the abuses of workers by profit-seeking capitalists. They were challenging the worldview of laissez-faire capitalism, with its increasing amalgamation of power, resources, and wealth, rationalized by its emphasis on progress. Today, it seems history has a way of repeating itself as we face a similar struggle against technological changes that come about to the detriment of workers, as some tech

is being used by tech companies in various industries to drive down wages and worsen conditions for common workers. Take, for example, technological unemployment. Philoites who once resisted the encroachment of machines would find their concerns reflected in our modern world, as our technological advancements often come at the cost of those whose jobs can be automated away. For instance, in the manufacturing industry, robots and automated assembly lines have streamlined production, leading to increased efficiency and lower costs for companies. But these efficiencies often meant the displacement of human workers.

And such as in manufacturing, the ripple effects extend to various sectors like customer service, to various sectors like customer service, transportation, and data analysis. And so there's this fear of job displacement looms large. However, technological unemployment, which is the belief that as technology advances, human jobs are at risk, potentially leading to widespread unemployment, has been described by some economists as a fallacy. Back in the early days of the industrial revolution, when the advanced mechanization began transforming various industries, and with workers fearing automation would render them jobless and devalue their labor, the people took a stand.

But as time passed, new industries and job opportunities emerged to replace some of the old ones, ultimately absorbing that workforce. Fast forward to the 20th century, and the rise of computers and automation technology reignited concerns about technological unemployment. But again, new jobs were created in new industries. Today, the debate continues as artificial intelligence, robotics, and automation advance at an unprecedented pace. It remains to be seen what the long-term consequences of those technologies may be. My position has really always been that we should be working less anyway, but instead people are obsessed with creating new jobs even when they're unnecessary.

See, you know, of course, david graber's bullshit jobs yeah but you know even if the idea of mass unemployment due to tech is not true if we end up replacing the jobs that are erased with new jobs whatever the case may be tech is nevertheless quite capable of destroying livelihoods creating unintended consequences and further concentrating power in the hands of fewer and fewer people for every tech advancement that makes a job more fulfilling and enjoyable there are also those who make it more tedious and grinding i mean yes tech can free us from certain tasks you know accountants have digital spreadsheets to make their lives much easier for example writing is way easier now that the personal computer is more common but while technological progress can produce prosperity

there's really no guarantee that the prosperity will reach the workers in most cases under capitalism it very clearly doesn't in fact many of the benefits of the industrial revolution were really not felt by the workers until decades later. Yes. After many of them had been crushed or poisoned or killed or died in a factory fire or whatever, shot down when protesting. They didn't see the benefits until much later on. It's not like these things introduced and boom everybody benefits i mean even now not everybody in the world is benefiting from you know the computer age there are still many people like for example in the congo who are enduring slavery and slave-like conditions in order to you know procure the materials necessary

for the computer age totally and yet they're not seeing those benefits and it remains to be seen when they'll see the benefits that many of us enjoy in various parts of the world and particularly that those enjoy in the global north yeah in our relentless pursuit of progress and technological advancement as defined by capitalism we also end up losing our nature our community and many cases our craftsmanship i mean remember john booth the one who had said can you keep a secret or so can i his other words you know that the new machinery might be man's chief blessing instead of his curse if society were differently constituted that's where i have to bring in the one and only the ls i've spoken about him before of course the austrian philosopher the

theologian the sort of everything guy ivan illich oh yeah fun, fun times. Fun times, yeah. He was a thinker ahead of his time. Really strange in some of his positions, I think. But a lot of his concepts resonate today in various movements. In fact, one of the foundational concepts

in the modern movement of degrowth is the concept of conviviality, which was redefined and introduced in the context of our tools in Illich's book, Tools for Conviviality. Illich's vision, as explored by the book, is one in which technology serves humanity, not supplants it, where convivial tools empower individuals and communities, fostering creativity and autonomy while preventing the concentration of power in the hands of the few. According to Illich, conviviality is individual freedom realized in personal interdependence. It's basically the ability of individuals to interact and to interact creatively and

autonomously with others and the environment to satisfy their individual and collective needs convivial tools are those which are robust and durable preserve or enhance ecosystems level unequal power relationships and give each person who uses them the greatest opportunity to enrich their environment with the fruits of their vision. And a convivial society is one in which tools, which according to Illich includes physical hardware, productive institutions, and productive systems. So tools would be factories, hospitals, schools, farms, all of those things are being included in his definition of tools. And a convivial society is one in which those tools operate on the human scale and serve the people instead of rulers.

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where we get into todo lo actual y viral. Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how Tex Elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, better offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists

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The idea of configurable tools really challenges us to view technology as a means to enhance our lives rather than displace our livelihoods it's a call to harness innovation for the betterment of society instead of the perpetuation of radical monopolies which i spoke about in a previous it could happen here episode i think a lot of it's like john booth would have certainly appreciated that message yeah and to the right of today certainly do because yeah i'm not the first nor the only person to see lessons to be learned from the luddite movement the concept of a new luddite movement has been embraced by a variety of folks who may or may not understand what the original luddite movement was about like you know you have these primitivists who embrace the neo-Luddite

cause because they think it means hate and technology and you have the anarchists and the trade unionists and the environmentalists who are looking more at the labor organizing roots of the original Luddite movement. And of course you even see echoes of, you know, OG Luddite action in the

vandalism against self-driving cars. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The neo-Luddite action in the vandalism against self-driving cars. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Neo-Luddite movement is composed of activists, workers, scholars, and social critics who stand against the predominant worldview that unbridled technology represents progress, pointing scathing critiques, and in some cases actual action, against technologies and tech companies that desecrate our planet and our society. Philosopher Lewis Mumford, who had written The Myth of the Machine, Pentagon of Power, reminds us that technology encompasses more than just physical objects.

It also includes the techniques of operation and the social organizations that make a particular technology work. Technology reflects our worldview. The forms of technology we embrace, whether they be machines, techniques, or social structures, are deeply rooted in our perception of life, death, human potential, and the relationships between humans and nature. Our choice of technology, in many ways, mirrors our outlook on the world. That outlook in the modern world is shaped by a rather mechanistic approach to life, characterized by rational thinking, efficiency, utilitarianism, scientific detachment, and a belief in humanity's ownership and supremacy over nature.

That's how you end up getting texts like the Military-Industrial Complex and the Urban Sprawl. industrial complex and they were in sprawl honestly in a sense the old lorites kind of had it easy not i mean obviously their conditions were horrible but when i say they had it easy i mean it's in the sense that their machines could be destroyed by their sledgehammers right yeah our technology is a lot more ephemeral you know yeah it's like it's in the cloud yeah it's as it's as nebulous as microplastics in the soil the water and the breast milk i mean it's everywhere and it's integrated into everything it's like where do you even begin yeah wow in the book when technology wounds by psychologist Chellis Glendening, she studied technology survivors, people who had suffered injury or illness in recent years after being exposed to various

toxic technologies in their homes and workplaces, whether nuclear radiation, pesticides, asbestos, birth control devices, or drugs, and covered how they had begun to question not only the processes that maimed them, but the world that indifferently forced those processes on them under the guise of progress. Glendening saw these victims as the basis of a new Luddite movement, struggling against what has been called the Second Industrial Revolution, alongside thinkers like Lewis Mumford and Ivan Illich. Those survivors have gone on to create groups such as Asbestos Victims of America, Aspartame Victims and Their Friends, Citizens Against Pesticide Misuse,

Dalkin Shield Information Network, DES Action in National, National Association of Atomic Veterans, National Committee for Victims of Human Research, National Toxics Campaign, and the VDT Coalition. All of these, of course, are based in the US. And there are also activist groups like Earth First that could have been classified under the neoliberal cause. And Earth First's strategy was to stop environmental intrusions by any means available legal and otherwise so there would be slashing engines slashing tires disabling engines blocking roads

most famously they would drill spikes into trees and wilderness forests to prevent them from being logged by chainsaws yeah but you know while all these movements and organizations are happening in the Western world, it really wasn't just the Western world where this is happening. A positive undercurrent of the Luddite spirit has surged where Indigenous peoples have led the charges against the inclusions of industrialism. Communities not merely resisting the machines and projects of industrialization, but also pushing back against its cultural impact.

Peasants and farmers staunchly rejected participation in the various development initiatives imposed upon them by compliant governments, often under the influence of entities like the World Bank or the US State Department. For example, during the early 1980s, some farmers in Mali took a stand against the construction of dams and dikes for a rice-growing program that they wanted no part of. Other communities elsewhere have rallied to halt dam projects that threaten to submerge their ancestral lands. And some have been successful, as seen with the villagers who protested the Narmada Dam in India in the early 1990s.

And others have faced more daunting challenges, like the people of eastern Java who protested against the Nipah Irrigation Dam and faced deadly consequences at the hands of Indonesian security forces in 1993. Indigenous tribes have also organized to combat deforestation and road-building projects that encroached upon their territories. The Chipko Tree-hugging movement in India during the 1970s and 80s famously succeeded in stopping government clear-cutting efforts, and similar projects have echoed across the globe, from Malaysia to Australia, Brazil to Costa Rica, Solomon Islands, Indonesia, and beyond. Traditional fishermen in many regions,

such as the Indian subcontinent, Malaysia, Indonesia, and multiple ports along the Pacific coast of South America, including Ecuador and Colombia, have also taken action against industrial fishing fleets encroaching on their waters and jeopardizing their livelihoods. In some cases, these protests may not have involved the destruction of machinery, but sabotage is not unheard of, like in the case of a high-tech chemical plant in Thailand in 1986. unheard of, like in the case of a high-tech chemical plant in Thailand in 1986. The driving force behind these actions really mirrors the Luddite ethos as they share this fervent desire to preserve the traditional ways of life and livelihood in the face of industrial capitalism's relentless pull towards a wage and market system.

And then of course, outside these movers and shakers, these underground activists, there are also the philosophical Luddites, like the aforementioned Illich. The neoluddite spectrum is more diverse and intriguing than one might imagine. While it may not have crystallized into a more formal movement with clear representatives as is expected of movements these days, formal movement with clear representatives, as is expected of movements these days, it unites a wide array of individuals who share common awakening from the allure of unchecked technology and resist various aspects of the industrial monoculture. Perhaps if the connections between these separate groups strengthen, we'd see a greater recognition of the interconnected challenges in this grand tapestry of our evolving world. But the thing is, to address the challenges posed by these technologies, it's not enough to

merely regulate or eliminate individual items like pesticides or nuclear weapons. What's required is a profound shift in our thinking about humanity and in our relationship to life itself. We need to craft a new worldview that paves the way for a different way of interacting with our world, our technologies, and our fellow human beings. We need to reconsider our place in the grand scheme of things and to imagine a world where harmony and balance take precedence over domination and control. In Notes Toward a New Light Manifesto, written in 1990, also by Charles Glendening, the author outlines three core principles and four prescriptions

that could drive the Neolite movement. In terms of principles, firstly, and I suppose most essentially to addressing the misconception, Neolites are not anti-technology as she says technology is intrinsic to human creativity and culture but what they oppose are the kinds of technologies that are at root destructive of human lives and communities the next principle

too is that all technologies are political quote a social critic Jerry Mander writes in Four Arguments of the Elimination of Television a book I read some years ago by the way critical quote a social critic gerrymander writes in four arguments for the elimination of television a book i read some years ago by the way that i've been meaning to revisit but continuing the quote technologies are not neutral tools that can be used for good or evil depending on who uses them they are entities that have been consciously structured to reflect and serve specific

powerful interests in specific historical situations. The technologies created by mass technological society are those that serve the perpetuation of mass technological society. They tend to be structured for short-term efficiency, ease of production, distribution, marketing, and profit potential, or for war-making. As a result, they tend to create rigid social systems and institutions that people do not understand and cannot change or control the last principle three is that the personal view of technology is dangerously limited glendening argues that the often heard message but i couldn't live without my mood processor because of course she's writing this you know years and years ago yeah yeah yeah i'm a word for you my automatic typewriter yeah but this oftenhood message that i couldn't live without my word processor and i guess you could substitute that for smartphone or computer yeah

um that message denies the wider consequences of widespread use of computers for example the toxic contamination of workers in electronic plants or the solidifying of corporate power through exclusive access to new information and databases as mander points out producers and disseminators of technologies tend to introduce their creations in upbeat utopian terms you know pesticides will increase yields to feed a hungry planet nuclear energy will be too deep to too cheap to meet her etc and of course you know you have to throw in that um that uh pot shot at nuclear energy it's very um very 20th century coded text yeah um however quote learning to critique technology demands fully examining its sociological context economic

ramifications and political meanings it involves asking not just what is gained but what is lost and by whom it involves looking at the instruct introduction of technologies from the perspective not only of human use but of their impact on other living beings natural systems and the environment and then there's the neoliberal program, which loses me a bit at some points, even where I may agree with some of the principles. And, you know, you might say that's a sign of my propagandized mind in our technological society,

but I'll leave you to be the judge of that. Here's what Glendening explicitly proposes. One, as I move toward dealing with the consequences of modern technologies and preventing further destruction of life, the neoliberal movement should favor the dismantling of nuclear technologies, chemical technologies, genetic engineering technologies, television,

electromagnetic technologies, and computer technologies. Which, according to them, you know, according to her, cause disease and death, create dangerous mutagens, in the case of television, functions as a centralized mind controlling force, poisons the environment, all these different things. And I mean, I get some of the justifications for some of these technologies, right? A lot of them cause disease, death, you know, pollution, a lot of social cause disease death you know pollution a lot of social issues right yeah but i at the same time i don't believe in throwing out entire sciences and technologies wholesale

like that you know it feels like it feels like a very myopic view being presented on some of these texts yeah i mean i guess this was before really the decentralization of some of the means of dissemination of information that happened kind of later on with things like some parts of the internet. I don't want to say by any means that the internet is decentralized, but at least the promise of that which we occasionally see deliver as well. I don't know if you saw today, but I was just watching a video of the YPG in Syria, the people in Rojava talking about the importance of women in the revolution in Myanmar. And just occasionally the Internet or technology gives us the thing that it was supposed to give us, this ability to connect without barriers.

Absolutely. absolutely but yeah like you say that that's the computer or the cell phone that was recorded on or whatever happened because somebody uh somebody in the congo in horrific conditions and the drc had to dig out some rare earth chemical and then got paid next to nothing and and uh their ancestral homeland was ruined by some rabid company that makes billions of dollars and pays people like shit yeah yeah so i mean i absolutely agree that the supply side of a lot of these technologies need to change drastically yeah and also the you know just the supply chain as a whole you know from the raw materials to the finished products and how it gets to us. I mean, that might mean no more of certain technologies or it might mean a different approach,

but it really remains to be seen. We really haven't tried other approaches because we live under this capitalist hegemony. Welcome, I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter? Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters

to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how Tex Elite has turned Silicon Valley your podcast. from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things

that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. Hola mi gente, it's Honey German and I'm bringing you Gracias, Come Again,

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todo lo actual y viral. Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The next step in the program. Two. The neoliberal movement

should favor a search for new technological forms and the creation of technologies by the people directly involved in their use, not by scientists, engineers and entrepreneurs who gain financially from mass production and distribution of their inventions and who know little about the context in which their technologies are used. in which their technologies are used. I don't necessarily believe in, you know, splitting it down the middle like that, as if, you know, scientists and engineers are not going to be the people that are directly involved in their use. I mean, in some cases, that's true. But in other cases, you know,

people who are using the products, sometimes the people who invented it are iterated on it or whatnot. Like when I think about, before they were 3D printing weapons in the revolution in Myanmar, they were 3d printing weapons in the revolution in miyamber they were 3d printing prostheses because land mines are so common there um right and so like for those people right the engineer is the person whose brother or sister or non-binary

sibling or what have you it needs a leg and so they have iterated or designed a leg and like that person is very much both benefiting from the end user and doing the engineering. Exactly. I get this as kind of like a screed against the ivory tower types, but I don't think that reflects on all of the, or even most of the scientists and engineers. A lot of engineers on the ground,

a lot of barefoot scientists ground a lot of um you know barefoot scientists as the expression is yeah yeah like when we talk about things like permaculture or the things we talked about before like some of that is a science too right we have a thesis and we test it and we prove it and then we keep iterating on it like it's a hypothesis i should say like and that's certainly a science which is rooted in in a place and people and respect for the environment yeah that's i mean the the manifesto goes a little bit further on this particular point you know she's advocating for the creation of technologies that are of a scale and structure that make them understandable to the people who use them and are affected by them. She's advocating for the creation of technologies built with a high degree of flexibility

so they do not impose a rigid and irreversible imprint on their users. And she's advocating for the creation of technologies that foster independence from technological addiction and promise political freedom, economic justice, and ecological balance. There, I can't disagree, you know? Yeah, no, I'm down down with that i'm absolutely down with with advocating for that yeah uh the third point in the program uh she says we favor the creation of technologies in which politics morality ecology and techniques emerged for the benefits of life on

earth for example community-based energy sources utilizing solar wind and water technologies organic biological technologies in agriculture engineering architecture art medicine transportation and defense conflict resolution technologies which emphasize cooperation understanding and continuity of relationship and decentralized social technologies which encourage participation, responsibility, and empowerment. Now, you know, I'm the solo punk guy. I'm the, you know, the anarchist on YouTube, whatever.

So you got me on these. You know, I agree with all of these, obviously. But what I find interesting is that this list seems to ignore how you know the technologies being advocated here are linked to the previous technologies that were just being decried you know like in one section she's talking about oh you're not a fan of these chemical technologies but chemistry is an inevitable component of the biological technologies that you're advocating for are you saying that you don't like computer technologies um but when you're talking about

like solar wind and water energy which to be fair can be low-tech too yeah there is usually some involvement of a computer in those energy systems. So I think there's slight inconsistency there. But I don't know, what do you think? Yeah, I think, yeah, like we can't sort of, yeah, sometimes we can't say that, like you say, to a degree, all of these systems require hire a technology and like

i suppose we start to get into like what is the technology right before we go too far um and then i think that's probably a question worth asking but uh yeah i think we it's easy to throw it maybe out of our water i suppose yeah i mean like um like mumford had said technology is more than just physical objects. It's also techniques of operation and social organizations that reflect a worldview. Yeah. Yeah. So I suppose, as you said before, right? Like it's what I think about often.

It's like what we need to change is the way we see the world and then the other stuff we can change in it will fall into place yeah um i think uh again i'm gonna go back so i was just in in rojava for the last few weeks but um and one of the things that i heard from everyone there right from like and not just from like people in the women's movement, but also from random guy in the market who I'm having tea with. It's like this idea that we can't decolonize a country until we decolonize our family, and the notion that women were the first colonized group of people. So if we can't do gender equality, what are we doing?

Why are we fighting this revolution to liberate our country when we can't liberate our spouse, daughter, or what have you? Definitely. Yeah, it's a very powerful, I know it's not as fun as taking a sledgehammer to a cotton mill, but if we replicate that kind of extractive like extractive capitalism is what makes the supply side of these things so bad and it's what also leads us to think about using them in a way that can extract the most value from the worker um yeah and so i would absolutely say that

uh you know the break the frame in your mind i don't know that's a good point yeah you know it's funny as you mentioned you know it's um gonna be as fun as you know smashing a cotton uh cotton mill or whatever yeah it made me think that you know perhaps in a revolutionary society in a society you may see um therapeutic rage rooms where people can smash out some of their last frustrations against the capitalist system yeah consequences there's left for them to fix yeah yeah to get that out before you uh you take that out on other people you go and rewild or something you know you have to get get that energy out yeah yeah yeah remove the toxicity i like that i like it that it's a place where you can take that anger out right so finally uh

the fourth and final uh element of the program uh she says that we favor the development of a life-enhancing worldview in western technological societies we hope to instill a perception of life, death, and human potential in technological societies that will integrate the human need for creative expression, spiritual experience, and community with the capacity for rational thought and functionality. We perceive the human role not as the dominator of other species in planetary biology, but as integrating to the natural world with appreciation for the sacredness of all life. We foresee a sustainable future for humanity if and when Western technological societies End quote. nothing to lose except a way of living that leads to the destruction of all life. We have a world to gain."

End quote. Word. That was a nice, very rhetorical flair at the end. Yeah, that's a bar. Yeah. We can get behind that in my opinion coming to a close here the Neolites hits and a miss they hit a lot more than they miss

there's some things I have some slight quibbles with and I really of course I have to give them credit for doing a lot more to investigate and confront technology than the vast majority of people I mean they're asking the right questions. Questions that you don't see being asked at all.

You know, you get these announcements for new technologies, new innovations, new techniques, new whatever. And so it's just like, you know, marketing and advertising and then it's just implemented. There's no say of people. There's no raising questions about what might the consequences of this be 10 years down the line, 20 years down the line, 50 years down the line, 100 years down the line, you know? Yeah. And lessons of Buddhism are very clear.

Technology should serve humanity, not the other way around. Yeah, I think that's a key take home. It's there to make our lives better. We don't have to, not to it's there to make our lives better. We don't have to, not to allow us to be more exploited. Yeah. Landscape is vast and it's constantly evolving,

but the principles, the lights, and the vision of convivial tools, I think they can offer us some guidance. And I hope you're able to take that away from this two-parter yeah and that's all I have for today great

thank you follow me on YouTube and Jerusalem support on patreon slash st. true thanks James for being part of this thank you that was good I enjoyed that this has been it could happen

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An anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast. And we're kicking off our second season digging into Tex Elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech brought to you by an industry veteran with nothing to lose. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts from.

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