It Could Happen Here - Mahmoud Khalil's Arrest and What Comes Next

Episode Date: March 12, 2025

Gare, James, and Robert discuss the ICE arrest of Mahmoud Khalil and what it means for Permanent Residents and freedom of speech. Sources: https://apnews.com/article/columbia-university-mahmoud-khalil-ice-15014bcbb921f21a9f704d5acdcae7a8 https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/additional-measures-to-combat-anti-semitism/https://www.justice.gov/ag/media/1388516/dl?inlinehttps://www.whitehouse.gov/fact-sheets/2025/01/fact-sheet-president-donald-j-trump-takes-forceful-and-unprecedented-steps-to-combat-anti-semitism/https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/02/keeping-education-accessible-and-ending-covid-19-vaccine-mandates-in-schools/https://forward.com/fast-forward/689866/biden-team-resolves-its-final-title-vi-antisemitism-and-anti-arab-cases/https://theintercept.com/2025/02/15/columbia-alumni-israel-whatsapp-deport-gaza-protesters/https://x.com/dhsgov/status/1898908955675357314?s=46&t=F-n6cTZFsKgvr1yQ7oHXRghttps://x.com/SecRubio/status/1897776709778211044https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/114139222625284782https://www.nationalreview.com/2025/03/can-trump-deport-a-green-card-holding-pro-hamas-columbia-grad/https://www.insidehighered.com/news/quick-takes/2024/10/11/cornell-international-grad-student-says-he-wont-be-deportedSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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This is It Could Happen Here. I'm Garrison Davis, still banned from one of the top 15 highest endowment universities in the country, but I am not banned from this podcast. Today I'm joined by Robert Evans and James Stout to discuss the very troubling news of students having their visas and or green cards revoked by U.S. Customs in relation to anti-genocide protests. James, this is something that you've been putting together a piece on for a while. Yeah. Repeatedly trying to warn people of Cassandra-like tests. James, this is something that you've been putting together a piece on for a while. Yeah. Repeatedly trying to warn people of Cassandra-like to no avail. Yes.

Yes. I do feel like we kind of saw this one coming a little bit, but that doesn't mean it's not bad. And specifically, the case we're talking about today, I think, is particularly egregious because it doesn't actually involve somewhat student visa, right? So I've been working for a while on people who actually under the Biden administration were potentially facing deportation, right? But the material difference between that and now is that those people were facing deportation because the university removed their visas or the university removed them from the university and therefore their visa was no longer valid. In this case, it seems that

the order came directly from the State Department to deport a guy whose name is Mahmood Khalil. So, Khalil was a prominent activist in the encampment at Columbia, right? But what's notable is that, and the events here, as best we can tell, went down like this. I'm referencing an AP article here that we'll link in the show notes. ICE agents came to his front door, which is on university property, and told him that they were revoking his student visa and therefore he was being deported. He then informed them that he didn't have a student visa, that he was a legal permanent

resident, right, colloquially referred to as a green card holder. They then told him or his lawyer, at some point he got his lawyer on the phone and was communicating with them through his lawyer. They then told the lawyer that they were revoking the green card. And at some point it's reported that they attempted to detain his wife, who is a U S citizen, which of course is not a thing that ICE can do. So the difference between a legal permanent resident and a student visa is like the place I want to start this because they are materially very different, right?

Student visas are pretty fragile. People lose their student visas for lots of things all the time. A green card is a much higher barrier. And the revocation of his green card, we spoke a lot before this episode about like exactly kind of where this comes from in Trump's mish mash of executive orders and speeches, right? Because after he was detained, we saw Trump truthing about specifically using the word green card. We also saw Marco Rubio tweeting about removing green cards, right? Rubio being the Secretary of State.

Normally the green card wouldn't be a State Department thing. No. It seems the most likely cause of events, as far as we can tell from what we know right now, today is the 10th of March, is that ICE came thinking he had a student visa. It's not particularly uncommon for ICE raids to not have all the information on someone, from what I understand. I mean, this is just a police thing. Yes, yes.

It's not just this. Cops who are doing raids very often don't have all or accurate information. Yeah. ICE in particular very often don't have a judicial warrant. They have a warrant that they made to assign themselves, which is a different thing. They're supposed to require a warrant to get onto Columbia University campus, but as of now, I don't believe Columbia have clarified that they did have. And I think the apology also allows them to allow ICE onto campus in like exigent circumstances. So we'll have to see what exactly that warrant

was for and why exactly Columbia allowed them onto campus. So it seems like they came attempting to evoke this guy's student visa, realized he didn't have a student visa, detained him anyway, and then kind of ex post facto, these tweets and statements came out. But Garrison, you found some stuff in, I mean, Trump has made previous statements that are kind of unclear, right? He uses the word aliens a lot. Yeah. So we've been trying to kind of figure out the exact details of like, what is going on,

what justification they have for doing this and how we can extrapolate this out to larger trends because deporting legal residents for college protests is pretty insane. And also the rhetoric coming out of the White House and the White House social media accounts around this incident is extremely worrying. The way they're basically putting up wanted posters for protesters and in general, the way that the White House account has been doing this like own the libs,

like mimetic nationalism that the past few weeks has been has been really upsetting. And this has continued around this issue. And I think it is worth focusing on this as like a specific escalation, because you had people like Mamadou Tal, who I think Cornell tried to revoke their student visa and then he's in some way negotiated back into that to stay on the interim provost. John Siciliano eventually ruled in Tal's favor, so he did not end up getting deported last year. And now this new development in relation to the Columbia protests is a significant escalation. Because not only is this, not just like the university revoking in F1, which they do have the authority to,

this is like coming directly from the Trump administration, where they are going after specific students without the involvement of the university. And students who may be legal permanent residents. Yeah. Garrison found a fact sheet on Whitehouse.gov where Trump is quoted as saying, quote, tool resident aliens who joined in the pro jihadist protests, we put you on notice. Come 2025, we will find you and we will deport you. And that would seem to include the legal permanent residents. Yes. Right. Like resident alien is a tax status.

Yes. But again, like, I think it's quite possible that the the vagueness in the language is deliberate, not necessarily from Trump. But there are other people within the Trump cabinet who might seek to use vagueness for things like this. Right. Like who might see that as a benefit? Yeah. Well, and you see that with other things, like with Rubio's State Department directives on trans people right now, where they keep the language intentionally vague, they leave the enforcement up to individual actors,

and then they can eventually figure out the logistics in court once people be like, oh no, this is illegal. Yeah. So yeah, it is vague, because they want to test the actual full authority of their power. But I think the specific fact sheet, which is like a sister article towards this executive order, says, like James was saying, to all the resident aliens who joined in the pro jihadist protests, we put you on notice.

Come 2025, we will find you and we will deport you. I will also quickly cancel the student visas of all Hamas sympathizers on college campuses, which have been infested with radicalism like never before." So there you have him saying both, resident aliens, which we can infer, probably refers to green card holders, as well as student visas. These are two separate things that he has specifically named as going after. And now you see more direction from Rubio after this arrest that happened on Monday. You see more direction from Rubio and the State Department in specifically naming

legal permanent residence as targets for removal and targets for ICE actions, which is not something that is extremely common. Yeah. Where I've seen it before is like in cases of material support for terrorism, but that has quite a high bar of proof, right? That's like a listed organization approving a material, i.e. financial or physical support, right? Like in-kind donations. I've written about a guy who was providing material aid to the Islamic State called Sikirumi's Hodzic, sending stuff from Bass Pro, actually, like thermal scopes and hunting scopes and things like that.

But that has a much higher bar than this, which we will see, because we have a legal permanent resident here and they're seeking to revoke that, I imagine we will see a court case and we will see exactly the justification for revoking his green card in that court case. That will be sometime in the future. Let's go on a quick break and we will come back to discuss some more of the details on what Mark Rubio is actually saying and where this could all end up. Hey, it's Amartines. The news can feel like a lot on any given day, but you can't just ignore las noticias when important world-changing events are happening. That is where the Up First podcast comes in.

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Yes, that was a real horse's head. Listen and subscribe to Leave the Gun, Take the Canole on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, we are back. I would like to talk about specifically some of the rhetoric that Rubio has been using since this arrest and a little bit of what he was saying before. Like we were saying before the break, some of this kind of vague language can kind of be used to their advantage. And this is certainly like riffing off of very vague language that Trump would use on the campaign trail, right? Where he would talk about wanting to jail or deport protesters, like in general, regardless

of their student visa holders, green card holders, or just US citizens, right? Like Trump has made statements about wanting to do all of that. And campaigns like off the cuff statements and actual like government policy are two different things. And right now, like they're trying to figure out where the line between that is, how much of this rhetoric can be turned into government policy.

And we mentioned the fact sheet from the executive order that I believe was signed in January, which is to quote unquote, combat anti-Semitism. And then last week, so before this arrest happened, we had a post from the secretary Mark Rubio Twitter account official, quote, those who support designated terrorist organizations, including Hamas, threaten our national security. The United States has zero tolerance for foreign visitors who support terrorists.

Violators of US law, including international students, face visa denial or revocation and deportation." So that one specifically focuses, I would say, pretty firmly on people who have student visas, right? He names like visitors. And then after the arrest happened, he posted a different statement on his own personal account. quote, we will be revoking the visas and or green cards of Hamas supporters in America so that they can be deported on quote, sharing an AP article and then the Homeland Security DHS Gov account posted on March 9 2025 in support of President Trump's executive orders prohibiting anti-Semitism and in coordination with the Department of State. US Immigration and Customs Enforcement arrested Mahmoud Khalil, a former Columbia University graduate student.

Khalil led activities aligned to Hamas, a designated terrorist organization. ICE and the Department of State are committed to enforcing President Trump's executive orders and protecting U.S. national security." And there's now been a flurry of posts from both the White House account and DHS accounts basically posting like a picture of this person saying that he's aligned with Hamas in celebration, almost like styled after a wanted poster, but instead it just reads like arrested. And that is like the that's the rhetoric that like they're using right now on

their official accounts. And that is like the, that's the rhetoric that like they're using right now on their official accounts. Something that like James I think noted, it's important to like think about if ICE was just freestyling this action or if there was a directive beforehand to go after green cards specifically, right? And it seems like, at least for the people like doing the raid, they did not care. Nor did they like, no, they weren't like informed. They just were told to go after this person from someone higher up. Right. And that very well could be Rubio.

I mean, a lot of DHS is being ran by Stephen Miller right now. A lot of this feels very Miller-esque. Yeah. We got an update. As of the time of recording, I've just discovered that Mahmoud Khalil's lawyers filed a lawsuit challenging his detention and a judge in New York City, a federal judge obviously, ordered that Khalil shouldn't be deported while that court then considered his case. Yes, I was going to bring that up.

So that also, like his case will be considered in New York City, which is probably good for him as opposed to a more conservative jurisdiction elsewhere, right? Totally. Like this happening in Texas, like in all of those districts where Elon Musk is trying to set up his corporations because there's friendly judges, this would be handled quite differently, right? Yeah. This is something migrants I speak to are at least aware of sometimes that they don't want to enter into Texas because the Fifth Circuit is seen as less favorable to them than say the Ninth Circuit where they would be if they entered in California. I'm sort of surprised if it is a Miller joint that it isn't someone like UT Austin

or somewhere like that. No, they're going directly after this individual in part because he's somebody that a lot of folks who might otherwise be like up in arms about a move like this would say because of some of his connections and some of the things he said in the past, well, he's, you know, supported groups that are really bad. Like, I think they're really trying to find the first case is they want someone that they can calve a lot of like liberals off from being too scared to support because he said some things that like they don't want to have attached to them.

Like that's, that's how they're and they're going to keep pushing that further and further each time. You find some folks who you can scare off a lot of maybe what you might call like their otherwise natural support base because you can point out this thing or that thing they did that was, that was not great. Yeah. ACLU types. Like when I'm not, I'm not insulting or trying to say bad things about this guy.

I'm just saying like that's, that's the tactic here, right? Just to try to paint this guy as like, well, this guy did this, do you really wanna support that? Which is why you have to take an incredibly firm stance that no, the government doesn't get to do this. The State Department doesn't get to do this. Yeah, regardless of any things that this person may have said.

Yeah, the First Amendment is for everyone. I don't care what he said, you know? So like, it's also worth noting that Columbia, specifically, the Intercept has reported on this that there is a WhatsApp group called Columbia Alumni for Israel. And they have been explicitly trying to identify these students and to call for like prosecution and I guess persecution of these students. So like, and I think the Columbia encampment was particularly objectionable to a lot of

people. That was kind of the one that got a lot of the national focus in the reporting, right? So it's understandable that that's where they went for this. Yeah, it's high visibility. And I think it's also very likely that they are just looking to have a test case for this to see if they can create legal precedent for removing people's green cards for, you know, anti-genocide protests, right? And the specific details of that will become more and more or less important based on like the results of the case. As long as they can create that precedent, right?

And specifically, like the precedent for revoking a green card, something that's pretty substantial. They want something that's in their mind, the most favorable towards their outcome. So that's part of what they're trying to do with this specific case. And it is very much in line with Trump's campaign rhetoric and versions of what Trump has said before. And now you're seeing someone like Rubio, someone who's a little bit more policy-minded,

taking steps towards this outcome. Yeah, which I think is... The other thing they didn't get to do, I guess, is that they weren't able to deport the guy at hyper speed, which they have been doing with some people. He was detained in New York and then moved to Louisiana. People were very upset about this, rightly, because it's removing him from easy access to his lawyer, and to his family, and to his eight-month pregnant wife, right? That's all things that should be done. It's also something that the Biden administration did routinely. We have other episodes on this

actually, especially in San Diego, where we have some funding that allows people who are detained access to legal assistance. It has been very common for those migrants to be then moved to Texas. I've seen it with migrants. I've met at the border and I've looked for them in the ICE immigrant detention locator and they've been moved to Texas. It's not uncommon at all. So it's bad that it happened. It was bad that it happened under Biden.

It's still bad that it's happening now. We shouldn't have let it happen then. We shouldn't support it when it happens now. I think before we go and break again, I do want to kind of close this section by talking about how like they don't necessarily need an executive order specifically allowing Trump to do this. Or like Trump doesn't need to make an executive order like explicitly for this based on like immigration deportation law.

Like there will be an argument made in like in court that that they have justification for this action already. This is something that I've already been through when I immigrated to the country and like did like my citizenship interview, right? Like if you if you have discussed in the past, you know, something that can be construed as support for a terrorist organization, that does disqualify you from US citizenship. So there's going to be a lot of arguments around, specifically, these terrorism statutes that will make someone like this a subject for removal. And that's going to be the angle in which they go about this. I think that's worth keeping in mind. I also think it's worth, and I don't want to make this, because a lot of people online have, this shouldn't be our immediate primary concern.

Our immediate primary concern should be Mahmoud and the other people like him who are in situations like him who are going to be targeted. But I don't think it's unreasonable to say that, like, if they get away with this, at some point they will start saying, like, look, if you support the government describes, like, or any support for any group that the government considers a terrorist, it doesn't matter if you were born here as a citizen, you know, we can start like that. That is a potential in state of this, which is again, not, should not be on your front burner.

It should be the people being targeted right now, but also an awareness of like, this is part of why you have to draw such a hard line. Like if, if the situation was reversed and this were a democratic administration coming after an anti-vaccine student activist who was a permanent legal resident, it would be wrong for them to disappear. That, right? Like that has to be like where the line is drawn.

Yeah. Yeah, the state should not have this like ability. Like we should not let them get away with this and we should put as much support and legal support into preventing this from happening. I really can't say which way this this will go. Like immigration law is the one of the most headache inducing things I've ever had to go through in my entire life.

Like he will be spending a lot of money on immigration lawyers now. Yeah. Also be really clear. I'm not equating support for Palestine to being anti-vax. I'm just saying, like, if this was like a shitty guy, right, it would still be wrong. Yeah, if it was something that we like to like laugh at for getting measles in Texas. Disappearing people better. If you thought Russia was doing anti-fascism in Ukraine, it would still be important to do this.

And should we take a break and come back and discuss some more? Yes. Yes. Yes. Hey, it's Amartines. The news can feel like a lot on any given day, but you can't just ignore las noticias when important world changing events are happening. That is where the Up First podcast comes in.

Every single morning in under 15 minutes, we take the news and boil it down to three essential stories so you can keep up without feeling stressed out. Listen up first from NPR on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here? How goes lower? From Blumhouse TV, iHeart Podcasts, and Ember 20 comes an all new fictional comedy podcast series. Join the flighty Damien Hirst as he unravels the mystery of his vanished boyfriend. And Santi was gone. I've been spending all my time looking for answers about what happened to Santi.

And what's the way to find a missing person? Sleep with everyone he knew, obviously. Pillow talk. The most unwelcome window into the human psyche. Follow our out of his element hero as he engages in a series of ill-conceived, investigative hookups. Mama always used to say,

God gave me gumption in place of a gag reflex. And as I was about to learn, no amount of showering can wash your hands of a bad hookup. Now, take a big whiff, my brah. Listen to the hookup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Our iHeartRadio Music Awards are coming back Monday, March 17th on Fox. Starring Bad Bunny, Glowrilla, Kenny Chesney, Money Long, Nellie, your host, I Heart Radio, LL Cool J, are you guys ready to have some fun tonight? Plus I Heart Innovator Award recipient Lady Gaga,

I Heart Icon Award recipient Moriah Carey, and I Heart Breakthrough Award recipient Gracie Abrams. Watch live on Fox, Monday March 17th at 8, 7 Central. I'm Mark Seale. And I'm Nathan King. This is Leave the Gun, Take the Canole. The five families did not want us to shoot that picture. Leave the Gun, Take the Canole is based on my co-host Mark's best-selling book of the same title.

And on this show, we call upon his years of research to help unpack the story behind the godfather's birth from start to finish. This is really the first interview I've done in bed. Ha ha ha ha! We sift through innumerable accounts. I see 35 pages, very much. Many of them conflicting.

That's nonsense. There were 60 pages. And try to get to the truth of what really happened. And they said, we're finished, this is over. They know this is not gonna work. You gotta get rid of those guys, this is a disaster. Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli features new and archival interviews with Francis Ford Coppola, Robert Evans, James Kahn, Talia Shire, and many others.

I guess that was the real horse's head. Listen and subscribe to Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I wanted to give a little bit of background here, some of the stuff that I've been looking into. So on the 5th of February, Attorney General Pam Bondi issued a series of memos. One of these was establishing a quote, October 7th task force. I'm going to quote from it here to prioritize

seeking justice for victims of October 7th, 2023 terrorist attack in Israel, addressing the ongoing threat posed by Hamas and its affiliates and combating anti-Semitic acts of terrorism and civil rights violations in the homeland. It then lifts several action items for the FBI, right? Among them is investigating and prosecuting acts of terrorism, anti-Semitic civil rights violations, and other federal crimes committed by Hamas supporters in the United States, including on college campuses. The final point is, quote, supporting efforts by the Israeli government, Department of Defense and Department of Treasury to pursue non-criminal responses to the October 7th attack and other terrorist activities by Hamas.

There's a couple of things that are concerned. Obviously, the non-criminal responses could include deportation, right? Like if the person is not being accused of a crime, but nonetheless having their visa revoked. Also, the idea of cooperating with a foreign government, a government which is currently committing a genocide potentially against US citizens or US residents is quite concerning. It's especially concerning when we talk about that Trump executive order that we've already discussed. One of the parts of that Trump executive order that I noticed that I haven't seen any reporting on was the

quote, infantry and analysis of all the Title VI complaints and administrative actions, including in K-12 education related to antisemitism pending or resolved after October 7, 2023. Can you explain what Title VI is? Yeah, I can, Garrison, and I would love to. So, Title VI is part of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, right? It prohibits discrimination based on race, color, or national origin. DEI. Yes.

It applies to federally funded programs, activities, or institutions which receive federal funding, right? Which would cover almost every institution of education in this country, apart from some like religious private schools, I guess. Maybe they still get some federal funding. There have been a number of Title VI cases filed for antisemitic discrimination and anti-Palestinian, anti-Arab or Islamophobic discrimination since October 7th, 2023.

The ones filed for Islamophobic discrimination don't seem to be covered by this. But the other ones do. The Biden administration kind of rushed to finish up and resolve some of these in the last few weeks of his tenure. And normally the results were pretty ineffectual. It was like some more training, a review of policies. Anyone who's been an educator at one of these institutions will have already been very familiar

with the sort of anti-discrimination training video that you have to watch. And they were suggesting you watch more of those videos. I'm not really convinced that that is the way we deal with the hatred, but that's what they recommended the Emory one I thought was interesting because they told Emory that it had to commit to a quote Equitable handling of protest after its campus police were so violent towards anti-genocide protesters A lot of the other cases are still pending But it seems like the Trump administration is going to go back and review all of them anyway. It does seem like whether it's spread organically or whether it was some kind of campaign to

file Title VI complaints, a lot of Title VI complaints were filed after October 7th. During this time when we saw campus protests and we saw support by some faculty for those campus protests, and we saw some faculty who may or may not have supported the protest, but felt very strongly about the right of students to have freedom of speech on campus. And I'm sure they will have been kind of wrapped up in this big dragnet too. But this potentially raises the specter of like at least career threatening. And again, lots of faculty are not US citizens, right? They might be permanent residents, who might be married to citizens, they might be here on a visa. There are a number of different immigration statuses that they could have that are not US citizen that they could potentially lose.

So what is Trump trying to do about these cases, which could be pending or have already been resolved? pending or have already been resolved. Yeah, well, what they said is they want to familiarize institutions with the grounds for inadmissibility. So that's not allowing someone to enter the United States, right? Read out the section of the United States Code, a section of the United States Code. Quote, so that such institutions may monitor for and report activities by alien students and staff relevant to those grounds, and for ensuring that such reports about aliens lead, as appropriate and consistent with applicable law, to investigations and

— if warranted — actions to remove such aliens." So it's in there, right? This is in Trump's late January executive order. This is the legal argument that they're making there, and they're asking universities to do some of that legwork for them, it seems. I imagine that this is the same section of the United States Code that we'll see, use as reference to Khalil, but it refers to like excludable or inadmissible aliens, which is people coming into the country.

But I guess they could make an argument that like he disguised his inadmissible status or became inadmissible. Sure. I mean, there's these two sections, right? There's this one that revolves around who can be like admitted, who can be accepted. There's that one section, which is section 1227, subsection A4A-C, which is the section specifically on deportation as relating to like supporting quote unquote terrorist activities. So I think they will try to use these both like in conjunction. I think it's also important to note out here the use of the word like aliens as

opposed to the word that like Rubio was using previously, which is like visitors. Right. Like visitors, I would, probably applies more to like student visa holders. Yeah, non-residents. Versus aliens. Aliens can be anyone, right? Like aliens can be visa holders, can be green card holders, right? And so at least in like the official wording here, they use the word I think aliens is important as opposed to like Rubio's like, you know, posts on the X.com, which now become official policy because we're in the hell world. Yep.

Yeah. That refers to like, just like, you know, visitors to this country. Yeah. The right has used aliens for a long time, right? Because it differentiates them from people. Yeah. It's like, it's very basic, like dehumanization language. Yeah.

Right. In this case, it's I think it's important. It's pivotal. So like, we have a sense of what will happen there. Maybe I could just finish up by saying, if you are faculty or a student, if you're encountering this, you can reach out to us using our encrypted email.

So if you'd like to reach out to us, it is coolzontips at proton.me. It's only encrypted if it's encrypted from the sender as well as a recipient. So that would mean using a proton or other encrypted email to reach out rather than using an unencrypted email. If you'd like to reach out again, coolzone tips at proton dot me. Obviously, this is something we're going to continue taking an interest in. And obviously, it's something that we can't report the entirety of now because we're still waiting on the court case,

but we are very interested in learning more about it, so please feel free to reach out. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, and it's something that Trump is also saying they will be taking a continued interest in. He is promising that this is the first arrest of quote-unquote many to come. So, as they continue to focus on this, we will as well. James, did you have anything else you wanted to say, like re lawyers? James Larkin Yes. So as I mentioned before, right, people

under the Biden administration have been moved away from their lawyers. This is very common. It seems that now people are being moved away from their lawyers and having teleconference requests denied. I let's say Garrison, you're a lawyer and you have a client detained to San Diego, then moved to Texas and now you can't teleconference in for a 10 minute hearing. So you would have to fly for that 10 minute hearing. Which is going to make it impossible both in time terms and financial terms. What I'm understanding, I'm still digging into this a little bit more, but that's what I'm hearing.

So this is going to be an ongoing thing. I guess if you're an immigration lawyer and one of the places people are being sent to like Texas, you can help, but you probably already know that. And you're probably already doing that and you're probably already very, very overworked if you work asylum cases. So yeah, I think now is the time for groups like the ACLU to step up or shut up and we'll see when the ACLU has come out against Mahmood's arrest. Okay, good.

The ADL, obviously, totally for it. The ADL, an organization formed to help avoid another Holocaust, does not see any potential danger in a state redefining citizenship in order to disappear its political enemy. So we love the ADL here, folks, but the ACLU did, I mean, we'll see if they do anything, but they did like make a statement. Yeah, and they've been very good. I should say the ACLU has been pursuing a lot of litigation against Trump administration.

This is the sort of thing they're pretty consistently anti. Yes. Yeah, especially at a national level, they've been very good at this. And so, yeah, you know, shout out to them, I guess. I don't know, we don't need to shout it out. It's their job. Yeah, they get millions of dollars to do this.

Like this is literally why you're there. Do a good job or else, I guess. You'd better do something else, too. Like... Yeah, yeah, you'd better show up. Yeah, I'd know, don't donate to the ADL, I guess, if you were thinking of doing that after listening to this podcast.

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