It Could Happen Here - Melting Charlottesville’s Robert E Lee Statue

Episode Date: February 22, 2024

Molly Conger sits down with Dr. Jalane Schmidt of the swords into plowshares project to talk about the past, present, and future of the infamous statue that inspired a nazi rallySee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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That's iHeart.com slash podcast awards. Welcome to Gracias Come Again, a podcast by Honey German, where we get real and dive straight into todo lo actual y viral. We're talking musica, los premios, el chisme, and all things trending in my cultura. I'm bringing you all the latest happening in our entertainment world and some fun and impactful interviews with your favorite Latin artists, comedians, actors, and influencers. Each week, we get deep and raw life stories, combos on the issues that matter to us, and it's all packed with gems, fun, straight-up comedia,

and that's a song that only nuestra gente can sprinkle. Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Calls on Media. Welcome back to It Could Happen Here, your favorite podcast for a daily dose of dystopia. I am once again your guest host, Molly Conger. Today I'm talking to a good friend of mine, one of the brilliant minds behind the melting of Charlottesville's Robert E. Lee statue. Dr. Jelaine Schmidt is going to tell us a little bit about the history of the statue, from its planning and placement to its current state, melted into ingots in an undisclosed location.

I'm joined today by Dr. Jelaine Schmidt, a professor of religious studies at the University of Virginia, the director of the Memory Project at the University of Virginia's Karsh Institute of Democracy, and a steering committee member at the Swords and Deplowshares Project. at the Swords into Plowshares Project. As both a scholar and an activist, Dr. Schmidt has been a leading voice in the Charlottesville community for racial justice and against the Confederate monuments that once stood here. The Swords into Plowshares Project announced back in October

that they had successfully dismantled and melted down the bronze statue of Robert E. Lee that once loomed over the Market Street Park in downtown Charlottesville. Thank you so much for joining me today to talk about the past, present, and future of that hunk of bronze. Thanks for having me, Molly. It's great to talk with you about this. I don't think I've called you Professor Schmidt since 2008 when I took one of your classes.

It's been a while. It's been a while. Yeah, yeah. Now we just call each other comrades, you know, because we're out there in the streets and in city council and, you know, doing the things. So before we get to the final fate of that melted bronze, I want to ground this in the history of that particular object, right? This isn't just any Confederate monument. This is the statue that made Charlottesville a household name, the statue that brought Unite the Right here, a statue that killed someone. It's a statue that had history in that park for a century before it came down. And before it was removed, you led some really incredible walking tours of the downtown parks to try to tell the story of the way those statues existed in those spaces for generations, why they were there, what they meant, what impact they had on the landscape and the people

in the community. I think I went on about a dozen of those walking tours and I learned something new every single time. So can you talk a little bit about the political atmosphere in 1924 when that statue first went up? Yeah, well, you know, just kind of to back up a little bit, like the history of Charlottesville, Virginia, at around the time of the Civil War, over half of the population of the local population was enslaved in Charlottesville and surrounding Albemarle County. And Black people were actually the majority of the population of Charlottesville until about 1890. And then it, you know, has been on this steady decline, you know, since then. So, to think about it, if you look at the history of reconstruction in Charlottesville, black people came out and registered to vote and got politically organized very quickly in the 1860s already, and were very influential in electing

a black delegate from Charlottesville to go to the Constitutional Convention. This is when, in order to rejoin the Union, all of the former Confederate states had to get their state constitutions up to snuff. And so Virginia, as did the other former Confederate states, had a constitutional convention. And our delegate from Charlottesville was James T.S. Taylor. He was a black man from Charlottesville. He'd been in the United States Colored Troops. Taylor, he was a black man from Charlottesville. He'd been in the United States colored troops, and he had a coalition, had coalesced around him of some progressive whites or savvy whites, that threw their lot with him and former enslaved people, and went and represented us and put

Charlottesville in the mix for starting a new state constitution in Virginia for finally getting public schools you know that's one thing that we can thank you know all those reconstruction governments around the south you know for getting us those public schools that we wouldn't have otherwise had that we didn't have before you know so I say all that backdrop that if you read the the historical sources of the time during Reconstruction and post-Reconstruction in Charlottesville, the white elites were quite upset with the state of affairs that had emerged after the Civil War in which formerly enslaved people were in leadership, in political leadership, you know. And so, when you look at the history of, you know, then finally as the new, you know, there was a Reconstruction era constitution that started all those wonderful things such as, you know, public schools, you know, and voting rights for black men, you know. But then as the neo-Confederates or their confederate sympathizers start to get the upper

hand again at the end of reconstruction and in virginia that's you know more or less in the in the 1880s you know and then there's this steady imposition of jim crow you know that's going into you know in richmond they put in their giant general lee statue in 1890 you know there and then in 1902 there's's finally, there was this final push that pushed black people out of political office in Virginia. And in 1902, a new Jim Crow state constitution was put into effect in 1902. And so you have to, when you think about all of these statues being installed, we have to see it as this, it's really resentment politics, you know, that's come about. That is, if you look at the speeches that are delivered at the installation

ceremonies of these statues, and this is where I'm getting to our General Lee statue in Charlottesville specifically with this, you go back and look at those at the occasion for the day and these these installation ceremonies they were a time for the neo-confederate organizations the hosting organizations in our case the united daughters of the confederacy the united confederate veterans and the sons of confederate veterans okay were the hosts, you know, for this event. And this is a two or three day occasion. So, there's like delegations coming in from all over the state, you know, and, you know, there's this buildup, you know, in the days ahead, you know, leading up to the installation. This was in May of 1924, you know, so you see, oh, this delegation has arrived from Roanoke, and now the governor is coming in, and now this.

And so the town is just a Twitter that they are hosting the statewide reunion of the United Confederate Veterans. And there hardly are any more at this time. They're quite elderly at this point. So there's quite this celebration. And this is also an annual meeting of the sons of confederate veterans and so the fact that little charlottesville is hosting a statewide reunion you know of the statewide all the chapters you know of these neo-confederate veterans is a big deal and then and then you know they're doing this, you know, within this context is when the unveiling of this statue

is occurring, you see. And so, it's this whole buildup of kind of lost cause nostalgia, which is occurring. And in the speeches at the Lee statue unveiling ceremony, it's very instructive to listen to what is being said, you know. You have, of course, you know, kind of local dignitaries and statewide, you know, dignitaries are there. The national commander of the Sons of Confederate Veterans is there. He gives a speech. He was also a Klansman, you know. You know, so this says something there that, you know, 1920s Charlottesville, you know, elites were not averse to rubbing shoulders with a known Klansman, you know, who had been invited to give a speech, you know, other invited guests. University of Virginia, and it was, you know, just kind of revealing, you know, what he said in his speech, you know, when he was talking about, he said that the days of Reconstruction were worse than war, you know, and so this, right, exactly, yeah, does beg the question, and that, yeah,

goes without saying, of course, that this is, you know, almost exclusively white audience. And, you know, the white school kids, school has been canceled for the day, the university has classes, you know, canceled for the day, and, you know, the businesses are closed. I mean, this is just, you know, quite the community event that's going on. So, Reconstruction was worse than war. You know, we're celebrating today, you know, the spirit of Lee, the regeneration, you know, and also, you know, kind of recalling, you know, the days of old, you know, and the values, you know, of our veterans, you know, who are now, you know, of course, in dwindling number, you know, these Confederate veterans who are there. And so, this, and as I've said, there's been this whole buildup, you know, for days and days, you know, I mean, of course, for the planning committee, this has been going on for weeks and months, you know, the fundraising and, you know, reserving, you know, blocks, you know, at the hotels and, you know, and all guest houses and all this kind of thing, you know, banquet halls, etc., you know, but it's also revealing that this installation ceremony for the Lee statue, it is bookended with ended with clan activity an uptick in clan

activity before and after the installation ceremony and why while we don't have well we do know but you know one one clansman who you know the the uh commander lee no relation to the general lee but uh but uh the the president of the sons of sons of the confederate veterans you know but but to just see all of this uptick in lost cause nostalgia and then these these acts of intimidation of you know clan rallies um clan posters that were you know put flyers around town you know uh and this sort of thing it just it there the atmosphere of intimidation you know that this must have been for black residents you know of the time uh you know it just it really gives you pause you know just just seeing how public space was commandeered you you know, by these people, these

neo-Confederates, you know, to kind of relive what they considered, you know, kind of the glory days, you know, of the nation, you know, and the kind of values to which they want to return, you know, and this sort of thing. So, yeah, so this is going on, you know, in the 1920s, as, you know, Charlottesville is, you know, locked into Jim Crow by then, you know, and we're 22 years into that Jim Crow state constitution, you know, this is the milieu, you know, in which this is taking place. Now, of course, black people have their own institutions, you know, that they founded, you know, namely churches, the Jefferson School, African American, what's now the African American Heritage Center, but the Jefferson School, which was a school for black children. And the founding of the high school of a black high school.

So this was, you know, the black community had its own nodes of organizational strength, you know, and goings on that were happening, even as, you know, there were these pressures going on was the passage of the Virginia Racial Integrity Act. And this was the kind of the codification of the so-called one-drop rule, which designated anyone with a perceived admixture of African American or Native American ancestry to be designated as colored, you know, and kind of bifurcating the population of Virginia into two categories, white or colored. And so, this is also occurring, you know, in 1924. There's a very, you know, there's very much of a legal, you know, a kind of strengthening, you know, in terms of the tools that are being used to separate the races, quote unquote, you know. And what we're seeing then in the parks, you know, in our public spaces, we're, you know, kind of designating what were, well, not public spaces. I mean, they were, you know, kind of designated, you know, almost shrine-like, you know, as white spaces, you know, and that this is,

it's a kind of broadcasting of who's in charge is what's going on. And I think, you know, today the Sons of Confederate Veterans very much separate themselves from the Klan, right? We're a heritage organization. We're not the Klan, but you were talking about this sort of Klan activity leading up to the unveiling of the statue. And I was actually just looking back this morning at some of the archival newspapers from that week. And so when the day the statue was placed, if you know, a few weeks before the unveiling, it was still covered, it was shrouded, you know, it's leading up to the big day. So in the front page of the Daily Progress, the day that the statue was put in the park that little snippet appears in the newspaper right next to a

headline about a cross burning like these things are happening on at the same time right and there was absolutely a big clan march through town that week and i think one of the it's easy to forget that these historical moments were experienced by people whose words that we still have, like people who were living in this moment. I think one moment in your historical tour that really has stuck with me all these years is an anecdote about John West, who is, for the listener, a man was born into slavery and in this era was one of the largest black landowners in the area, was a successful businessman. And when the Klan marched by that week, they're wearing their hoods, you don't know who they are, it's mysterious, black landowners in the area was a successful businessman and when the clan marched by that

week you know they're wearing their hoods you don't know who they are it's you know it's mysterious it's intimidating but he knew who every single clansman was because he was their barber and he recognized their shoes and that that just feels so intimate to me right that he's he's looking at the shoes of these men that he knows and then tomorrow they're going to come in for a shave and a haircut and he has to say you know yes sir thank you sir that's right that's right and so if you can just imagine like you know and here you know john west you know so here's one of the most you know influential black residents of charlottesville at that time and he has to live yeah in this you know that there's this this atmosphere of intimidation that you that yeah his clients are coming in you know they're coming in every 10 days or 14 days to get a get a trim get a you know touch up you know here

and there and and yeah and and he knows that these you know that that these are you know the folks who are kind of maintaining you know that this this public order you know that is so, you know, that this, this public order, you know, that is so, you know, that, you know, you better not step out of line. And so just to have one's public space, you know, be demarcated, you know, in such a demonstrative way, you know, in a monumental way, you know, literally, yeah, exactly, is, is, it really illustrates what's going on, you know, and even in, you know, relationships like that, you know, that are so like, you know, intimate, a barber, and a client, you know, and, and knowing, you know, what your clients are up to, you know, and, and how you better stay in line. You know, it's scary. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, better offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech

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That's what that statue was here, right? For almost a century. So skipping ahead that century, right? When the statue finally came down in 2021 so not not too long ago right so the city solicited proposals for what was to be done with it right a lot of cities put them into storage or move them to battlefields or um museums didn't want them people say well why can't it go to a museum museums didn't want it right yeah so so because of my work i get pulled in on a lot of different statue statue uh related consultations let's put it that way and i i was on the george rogers clark committee at the university of virginia when the university was trying to decide what to do with the very hideous uh i called it the genocide trophy. It was a statue of the George Rogers Clark,

the conqueror of the Northwest. It literally said that on the facade, you know. And so we were in consultation with Native tribes. We were contacting the various tribal nations who suffered the onslaught of the so-called Northwest campaign. So, these tribes that are in what is now Illinois and Ohio, etc., you know, and just asking them, you know, would you like to kind of weigh in, you know, on this? And, you know, really sad. Genocide is a real thing. Some folks are just no longer there, you know, or, you know, were, you know, became such a remnant, you know, as they were so decimated that, you know, they kind of, you know, morphed into, you know, became such a remnant, you know, as they were so decimated that, you know, they kind of, you know, morphed into, you know, other tribes. Others were, you know, went on, you know, later on to, you know, to Oklahoma or other places, you know, just dispersal, you know, really was, you know.

You know, so we're in this, you know, kind of year-long process trying to figure out what to do with UVA's own statue there. what to do with UVA's own statue there, you know, also a gift of Paul Goodloe McIntyre, you know, the same donor who gave the Lee statue to the city, gave this George Rogers Clark statue to the university. And so in doing that committee work, we made appointments with all the big players, all the, you know, and here we are, we're from the University of Virginia, you know and here we are we're from the university of virginia you know and we've got this you know big big monument here you know the smithsonian that you know and you know we talked to not about this one but in another instance talked to you know the civil war museums battlefields you know i mean we contacted all the responsible you know the folks who are going to curate this in a responsible way, you know, because, you know, that's, it is a monumental work of art, you know, it has stood

here for a century. It does have historical value of a sort, you know, and I mean, and, you know, and as someone who has, you know, teaches history and researches history, that's my, that's my inclination, My initial inclination is, oh, yeah, well, we should preserve. I mean, that's kind of where I go to. But the problem is, it's a very practical one. This is a material object that is taking up space, literal and figurative space in the world. It's 6,000 pounds. Yeah, yeah. The very materiality of it, it taking up space and you let you have to figure out what space is it going to inhabit this is a very practical question if it's not in your park

anymore where is it going to be we contacted all these museums you know and in several you know different consultations i've been a part of where we've been trying to get rid of statues nobody wants them nobody responsible wants them and and and you know and even if they did have an inclination to want to just the expense of it you know who wants to reinforce their floors to put a you know century-old you know artistically not exemplary you know monument in it you know, artistically not exemplary, you know, monument in it, you know, and then care for it. I mean, museums have very limited budgets. They're nonprofit organizations. Why should they be expending all this energy? I love the, my colleague, Erin Thompson from John Jay College at CUNY, you know, she's an art crime professor and she said you know she talked with somebody at the smithsonian who said something to the effect that you know we're not america's

addict for racist art that's that's not our role it's like you know it kind of does throw back the responsibility to individual communities too it's like you know you have a part to play in this you know and so anyway, yeah. So we tried to do the responsible thing. We contacted all the responsible actors out there. They don't want them. And so then the question becomes, okay, the city also doesn't want it sitting on its back lot

for forever in perpetuity. You know, they've got things, you know, they've got equipment there. They've got things that, you know, this shouldn't be sitting there. Where is it going to go? Again, this is a material object that exists in the world. It is a problem.

You know, like what physical space is it going to occupy? We're just such brute practicality here. I don't think people quite get what it means to deal with this. And the only people who want it are the very people who shouldn't have it. And the only people who want it are the very people who shouldn't have it, you know, who want to take this object that's caused us so much pain and to make a shrine out of it, you know, that would continue to attract bad actors, you know. And that it would, you know, and I'm a religious studies scholar, so when I use, I don't use the word shrine lightly, I know what kinds of activities, you know, these engender, you know, and the sorts of emotions that are, you know, evoked, you know, in the ceremonies around, you know, objects that are held to be sacred, you know, that attract, you know, kind of devotees, you know. And so, you really have

to think about what does it mean to be a responsible ethical actor? You know, it's like now we're in grown up world now. It's like, okay, it's like we want, you know, it's like there is a material object. Where are we going to put it? It's like having a junked car. What do you do with it? You just let it sit in your driveway and make your neighbors mad at you? Right.

And these Confederate statues are sort of the junk cars of the lost cause, right? Because they're not rare, right? Like, you know, especially right after Unite the Right, a bunch of cities all of a sudden were like, we got to get rid of these things. And so suddenly the market is flooded with Confederate statues. Where are you going to put them? question and they are and i've used this this metaphor before the the metaphor of toxic waste you know it's not responsible to say oh we want to get rid of our toxic trash here and then ship it down the road to the next town and say okay well we're done with that that's not responsible to make that next town have to deal you know know, or maybe there were some people in that town that wanted it, you know, but that's not fair to the other people to have to breathe in that air and drink that water that's poisoned by this. That's not being responsible, you know what I mean? So, it really is an ethical question, you know, what space these toxic objects are going to inhabit. And so we were unable to find

any responsible actors who would take this on. And so then it kind of, it's like, well, I guess it's kind of on us. We have to, you know, like the Smithsonian, it's like, we're not the addict for your racist trash. You know, it's like, it's really, it's on us, it's on communities to figure this out, you know, and if there isn't, you know, some sort of organization that can responsibly curate this, you know, and care for it, then, you know, we really need to think about it. And in the case of this Lee statue of Charlottesville's Lee statue, you know, there are about I think there are about 16 monuments of Lee, like kind of equestrian monuments of this sort, you know, in the country. I can say with confidence that all of the others are of better quality than Charlottesville's. It's the absolute worst such an important point right

because people this is you know an important historical piece of art and that's true of some of them some of them are legitimate pieces of but this one is not no i mean it looks like he was smuggling hams in his sleeves oh well yeah so yeah it's in it's terrible it's really a case the lee statue from charlottesville is really a case of too many chefs spoiled the soup. You know, the original sculptor, Shrady, you know, was commissioned to do this work. work and he got behind on the commission because he was finishing another uh another work of his which is generally regarded as his magnum opus which is a monument to general grant i just love that it's just perfect poetry right you gotta wait i'm working on my best piece right he finished a beautiful statue of grant and then he died and then he died he died and

and supposedly it might be apocryphal. I kind of like this tale that supposedly when he's on his deathbed, Shrady's on his deathbed and he's still thinking about that unfinished Lee. He's like, oh, mind the, you know, mind the cloth, you know, keep it damp, you know. Keep the plaster wet, right? Yes. Keep the plaster. He'd made a maquette he'd made a model play model of the lee statue for charlottesville for that next commission the unfinished commission and he dies and so now it's like well you know this is a problem you know for you know for the philanthropist and the community or the community leaders of charlottesville who wanted this lee statue

so they find they find a ringer, you know, this young guy, you know, Leo Lentelli, interesting, you know, Italian immigrant in the 20s, which is kind of interesting, you know, when you think about, you know, all the hate that was being whipped up. Back before Italians were white, right? That was before Italians were white, but he was, yeah, kind of direct from Italy and from a sculpting background. So maybe they made a little exception for him. I don't know. Anyway, so this young guy, you know, Leo Lentelli, he takes over.

And, you know, he probably needed a little more practice. I don't know. It just didn't turn out well. Like the Lego tail on Traveler, like chunky. No, it's just, yeah, there was, we had a sculptor from around here who himself works in bronze and does monumental work. And he kind of just kind of came and looked at it. And he was just, you know, just everything's out of proportion.

The gauntlets on the glove are too thick. You know, the sword is too long. The tail is too fat. I mean, you know. His feet are bigger than his head. Yeah. Lee's head on top of his shoulders. It looks like, you know, kind of like almost a Transformer toy or something.

I mean, it's just really weird, you know, proportions. It's just, it just really was not very well executed because apparently the maquette, the model that had been made just was completely destroyed. The model, the original model by Shrady was completely turned to dust. And so Lentelli, the successor sculpt sculptor had to work from the drawings that that that remained you know and you know it just didn't didn't really go very well and and here's the thing that even the the boosters at the time that is you know the folks that were planning the in for the installation of the lee statue in the 1920s themselves did not think it was very well executed we have diary entries from the master of ceremonies um of the installation ceremony rtw dukes and he says he writes in his

in his like day or two before the installation he says went on a walk you know tonight you know went by the park you know saw the lee statue i do not like it me either this is the guy who's please damn see at the unveiling ceremony in you know the next day or two how embarrassing yeah and there's op-eds even you you know, also they're saying like, wow, you know, that just doesn't look good at all, you know. And these are the supporters. These are the neo-Confederates, the one there. And they've noticed that too many cooks spoiled the soup, you know. And then apparently the murmurs were sufficient that one of the speakers at the installation ceremony, if I can hearken back to that, at the Lee installation ceremony, I guess felt compelled to address the complaints that were apparently circulating.

And he said, you know, I'm talking about the proportionality problem that I mentioned before, that just so many, it's just very disjointed you know so many parts of the of the monument are out of proportion to other parts and so this speaker at the installation ceremony said you know there are those who say that the pedestal you know upon which the lee statue is is you know set, is too small. But I say the world itself is too small a pedestal for General Lee. It's like, just like, oh yeah, good save. Good save, good save. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The proportions, I mean, the whole thing, the plinth was too small. The statue was too large for that tiny park. It just, it was never a good spot for him. It was never a good spot. So anyway, all that is to say, it's a very, it's a very poor work of art, just, just on an aesthetic. I mean, and I'm not one that, that wants to remove, you know,

kind of any moral considerations from aesthetic. There are some people, philosophers who want to parse that out and this sort of thing. And, but even if you believe you could do that, parse that out and this sort of thing and but even if you believe you could do that which i do not you know it's just really a a not it's like having a high school art project a c i give it a c it's a high school art project that it's not worth saving right no like even even if it had not been this sort of lightning rod in our community right that even if this were a you know a beautiful piece of art that was worth saving i don't i don't know there's two separate concerns right like it's not yeah beautiful enough to put into a museum regardless right but then also preserving this object in any capacity just allows it to sort of continue to be this lightning rod like

you know for anyone sort of still asking about well what's the problem with recontextualization? Why can't you just put it somewhere else? And I think that's sort of a broader conversation about these statues in general. But for our statue, for that Robert E. Lee statue, right, that it had become sort of a pilgrimage site for vigilante violence. Oh, yeah. And I don't know that, like, just out for the listeners in radio land, just for folks out there listening, that even after the 2017 Unite the Right rally, this statue stood for another four years in our park while we had to wrestle through legal issues, legislative and judicial entanglements that prevented Charlottesville from removing that statue even after the Unite the Right rally. And during that time, that four-year

interim, it's crazy to think about it, huh? Four years. That for four years after Unite the Right, it was still there. Right. This statue made everyone else realize they needed to get rid of theirs, but because of state law and these lawsuits, we were still stuck with ours. Charlottesville was still stuck with it. And these, you know, different groups, some of the same constituencies that had attended Unite the Right continued to come and make their pilgrimages to the Lee statue and to antagonize community members by putting up their propaganda near the statues um and even uh you know going to uh the fourth street you know the

crash site on fourth street where a neo-nazi drove his car you know into a crowd of of charlottesville uh counter protesters and killed community member Heather Heyer. These fascists, you know, who would make their pilgrimage to Charlottesville would make sure and still do upon occasion, go to Fourth Street and put up their propaganda there as well as if to kind of further antagonize the community at a site of our trauma, you know. And so, it was very clear that this statue would just, wherever it would be, it would continue to be a beacon for these people. And so, really, it was just kind of a question of responsibility, knowing this, knowing that no responsible, historical, or artistic institution has the capacity or desire to take it in,

institution has the capacity or desire to take it in, what does one do with it? And that it's not an exemplary piece of art. There are 15 other monuments that are of better quality of Lee. We're not going to forget him. If this particular specimen goes missing and the way we see it, we're doing the art world a favor because as I I've said, it was really, you know, not a very good, well executed piece of art. So, you know, with in considering all of that, you know, in seeing in prior removals, for instance, the Johnny Reb, the court, the courthouse Confederate soldier statue was removed, and there was kind of no plan in place about where it would go and so it ended up you know getting sent to a battlefield that is um maintained by a group of of confederate leading folks that that that uh seemed to favor uh kind of lost cause interpretations of the war so we'd

seen that happen already the year before in 2020 that when there isn't a plan it's one thing to remove it but then where does it go again this is a physical object that exists in space in physical space where is this material object going to go if you don't have a plan then um bad things can happen the path of least resistance but the path of least resistance is just if someone says i will pay to move this and the city is paying to store it, then that's an easy answer. And you can't let that be the answer. Right. And so when the county, Albemarle County removed the Johnny Reb statue, the Confederate soldier statue from in front of the courthouse in, I think that was September of 2020.

Right. 20 right and we saw how quickly that got sent to this battlefield that is you know maintained by these you know kind of lost cause type folks that's when andrea douglas and i and andrea douglas is the director of the jefferson school african-american heritage center here in charlottesville we said you know we still do not have the legal authority to remove charlottesville's lee statue but we anticipated that that perhaps you know in the in the coming year we might i said we need to start making plans now about what can have what where the statue should go after its removal because otherwise the same thing that happened to this Johnny Reb, to this Confederate soldier statue, just kind of getting sent down the road, you know,

to whatever entity organization that wants it, the same thing's going to happen. And we need to have a plan in place in order to kind of capture that so that it doesn't just kind of continue to circulate and to do harm. So that was our motivation. So just kind of continue to circulate and to do harm so that was our motivation so we kind of you know in september of 2020 that's when we really you know put the pedal to the metal on on starting the planning of this you know and we and mind you we did not even get permission until i think was uh april the 1st of 2021 when finally the virginia supreme court ruled in favor of the city of Charlottesville in our efforts to remove the Lee statue.

You know, so this was, you know, six, seven months before we even knew if we could do this, but we said, let's start making plans. And so we started having these kinds of conversations, you know, with battlefields, with museums, with foundries, you know, just learning, you know, kind of the nuts and bolts, you know, what are the possibilities here? And it turns out it's very complicated. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how tech's elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires.

From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough.

So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh.

And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez. everywhere. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him.

Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly. I am talking to a felon right now, and I cannot decide if I like him or not.

Those were some callers from my call-in podcast, Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take real phone calls from anonymous strangers all over the world as a fake gecko therapist and try to dig into their brains and learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's pretty interesting if you give it a shot. Matter of fact, here's a few more examples of the kinds of calls we get on this show. I live with my boyfriend and I found his piss jar in our apartment. I collect my roommate's toenails and fingernails. I have very overbearing parents. Even at the age of 29, they won't let me move out of their house. So if you want an excuse to get out of your own head and see what's going on in

someone else's head, search for Therapy Gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's the one with the green guy on it. Right, so I know there have been sort of jokes around, it was going back over some of the public discourse over the years, that we've been sort of joking as a community for years, like, why don't we just melt it? Why don't we just melt it? Yeah.

But when did that become a real idea like when did it when did it when did that sort of coalesce into something that felt possible i think you know in september 2020 i think when the johnny rebb statue was removed and it went on you know to the shenandoah valley battlefield foundation you know and they have this horrible plaque that they're putting up that talks about how these men died for Virginia. And it's like they died for 38 percent of Virginians were enslaved at that time. So how are you saying that they died for Virginia? Also, this is from Albemarle County.

The majority of people here were enslaved. So how did how did the people supposedly represented by this statue die for Virginia, fight for Virginia? You know what I mean? supposedly represented by this statue, die for Virginia, fight for Virginia. You know what I mean? So we just like, that was so disturbing, you know, in September of 2020, when that happened, that that's, that's really when I just really started working in earnest, you know, calling foundries. So the idea was always melting. I mean, it wasn't until then, because see, this is funny, when this whole controversy started in 2016, when Zion O'Brien brought up her petition, you know, to consider removing these statues, the position of the activists then was just

move the statue. Go back and look at the signs and at the t-shirts. And it says, hashtag move the statue. We just wanted it moved. Just take it from the Central Park and put it out in mcintyre park where there's more space don't have it downtown i mean that was kind of like that was the edgy you know and then they should have taken the opportunity back then see right exactly that was the opening bid and you should have took it. You know, just these. That offer's not on the table anymore.

Yeah, exactly. That would have been good. It would have been in Martin McIntyre Park on the outskirts of town. So, you know, when the city appointed this Blue Ribbon Commission on race memorials in public spaces to have a series of public meetings to hear from community members what they wanted to have happen with the statues should they be removed should you know what should happen and you know and and this blue ribbon commission you'll hands their final report to city council you know and then city council takes a vote you know charlottesville city council in february of 2017 and surprising many people not some of us who are in the know, but one of the council members said, yes, I would like to propose a resolution to remove the, not just move it, not just recontextualize it, because that's, you know, if you go back and read that report,

it's actually fairly, there's a couple of different suggestions. It's like, well, you could move it or you could just do this. And, you know, and city councilwoman, you know, Kristen Zekas said, I would, you know, make a motion to have it removed completely. You know, so it's like, whoa, okay. We're, you know, we're making steps, you know. So it was, it was about, you know, it was getting from move, from move the statue to remove the statue as in take it away, you know. And then it really wasn't until after all the strife, you know, I mean, I think there were some people all along who would say tongue in cheek, oh, we should just melt it down, you know, or we, you know, should, you know. But, but the thought, it was just so, you know, talk about, there's much talk of Overton windows these days, but they're just, they're just, when that was being said, it was always in a kind of jocular manner, like, oh, of course,

that could never be, but we should melt it down. It was this kind of offhand, right? It wasn't serious because how could that ever be? I mean, really, that was behind. But what it takes is somebody taking that seriously and going through the practical steps of what would that look like. And so that's what I started doing in September of 2020. It's like I keep hearing people say that they want it melted down. What would that look like? How would you physically do that?

How would this happen? i'm a humanities person this was breaking my brain learning about alloys and you know compositions it becomes an engineering problem yeah it really did yeah and i did i consulted with you know metallurgists engineers um you know folks at various foundries you know to to you know consulting and say well you have to do this, to, you know, consulting and say, well, you have to do this, you have to, you know, consider that. I mean, so, yeah, it was really in the fall of 2020 when, you know, kind of in earnest started having conversations, you know, with foundry men and with engineers, with folks that work in bronze casting, you know. But most of the time, people didn't want to talk to us. Right. When they found out,

oh, you want to do something with this with the staff? Oh, no. They just, you know, they were, they didn't want to be involved in any controversy. Or we would get someone who was on board with it. Yes, we're going to do it. And then, for instance, you know, the company got sold. And then new owners were like, what, nothing to do with it yes we're gonna do it and then for instance you know the company got sold and the new owners were like what nothing to do with it you know or they won't call us back

anymore or no or you know i mean just things just kept coming up so it was hard to find anyone who would just engage in a serious way about the questions. And then even when you could, it was kind of like, you know, you'd get somebody in for a little bit. And then it was like, you know, like the fish, it's like, you know, catch the fish would swim away, you know, kind of, I don't know, it just, you know, so it was, it was a lot of different conversations with a lot of different people, you know, along the way to figure out like, what are the, you know, literal and figurative nuts and bolts of doing this? You know, I learned a lot, like, you know, about standard width of trailers, eight and a half feet. Did you know that? Yeah. Eight and a half feet. Yep. Right, right. You know, and, you know, 53 feet long and, you know, and, you know, kind of what,

kind of what's the hauling capacity? What's the's the payload you know how do you balance the load you know what is dunnage i mean you're just like all these things you know that that just a very practical steps that that one has to take to melt a statue and so it seems like you know the conclusion that you reached was this object can't keep existing because the fact that it does exist will always be a problem. So the decision was made that it needed to be destroyed. But what was sort of the process of thinking through what do we do with it now, like what is this sort of the vision behind not just, you know, taking the statue down and putting up a different piece of public art, but a different piece of public art that is physically repurposed, right?

That you've remediated this material. Right, right. Yeah, well, we prefer the word transformed, you know, to destroyed or, I mean, it is, you know, definitely, it is, you know, kind of morphing the, it is taking the materials, you know, these raw materials and, you know, transforming them into kind of usable, you know, kind of ingots, brick sized, you know, pieces of bronze so that they can be made into something new. It's not that we hate art. We want art. Right. Dr. Douglas, her background is in art, right? Yes. Dr. Douglas is an art historian. I mean, we are the two most unlikely people to be in

charge of such a project. I mean, I'm a religious studies scholar. It's like, I've spent years of my life studying know make make sacred values and and specifically how they gather around material objects that they regard i don't think that's unlikely at all right that this was an object of veneration for a very harmful cause i know you're sort of 17 years you know researching a book about a uh very beloved um 400 year old effigy of the virgin mary in cuba i don't know if you can see my book up here well there's a cuban flag this right here is my book i'm going over too far yeah i see the virgin mary back there yeah anyway so i yeah so that's that's my book up here yeah right here right here. This is my book, Cachita's Streets. I mean, if somebody, oh, and you know, and this has happened before, there've been folks,

you know, iconoclasts. If somebody went and destroyed her image there in that shrine in Cuba, I would be incensed. I would just, I would be incensed. I would just, I would be beside myself. I mean, it'd be like somebody killed, you know, a family member. I mean, you'd be on the next plane to get, you know, you'd have to console people. I mean, a 400-year-old, you know, it would just be terrible, you know. It doesn't have all the hate wrapped into it that these, you know, statues do and this sort of thing so what i'm saying is i understand that people have very tender feelings toward these material objects that they have had experiences around them that have bound them together uh religiare you know the the binding that's the

original you know root latin root of of religion you know is to bind you know i get that um and so yeah i'm not a reflexive iconoclast you know um i I'm a Catholic, I'm a, you know, I'm also a, you know, participate in these African inspired religious practices and stuff that, you know, that put a lot of, you know, emphasis upon, you know, sacred material objects. So, I am kind of, I mean, it is kind of weird that me, I would be involved in this and that, you know, objects. So I am kind of, I mean, it is kind of weird that me, I would be involved in this and that, you know, and Dr. Douglas, you know, but it's precisely because we know the power of these things and that we're eyewitnesses to what happened here, you know, that we know the power of it. And so how to be responsible for it. And so to take something like that, that was so harmful, and to be able to use its materials

to transform them and to make something that's meaningful and beautiful, and that expresses our community's values, and that includes people rather than kind of sets people apart, you know, or kind of, you know, symbolizing moments in our history where, you know, over half the local population was completely debased, you know, to be able to take the material that, that was part of that and transform it into something else. It's just, it's just seemed like it just has so much potential, you know, and, and the name of the project is swords into plowshares, which comes from

a verse from the prophet isaiah that they shall turn their swords into plowshares they shall turn their their spears into pruning hooks so we'll take these implements of destruction and And we will transform them into instruments to cultivate sustenance, nutrients for a community. I mean, to just really transform it from something so ugly into something beautiful. And we just thought, let's take the chance. Let's try and do this. Let's do something that's never been done before because none of these statues have ever been like, I don't think ever completely, the Confederate ones anyway, have ever been completely destroyed, you know, like this. Most of them are just in storage somewhere. And we said, let's, let's take this chance to transform. Let's be responsible, first of all, and not send our toxic waste down the road to another community. And let's try to do something transformative, you know, for our community. And maybe this can also move the needle, you know, in a national and international conversation about art and the reparative values, you know, potential reparative values of art, you know, and community

building, you know. And so, in our, you know, the Swords and the Plowshares project, we're hoping to put out a request for proposals, you know, to artists this year in 2024, which is the 100th anniversary of when the Lee statue was installed, you know, ideally, you know, fingers crossed if, you know, it would be wonderful if we could have a completed statue in 2027, which would be the 10-year anniversary of the Unite the Right rally, you know, to, you know, to have something else to give back to our community, you know, that's of lasting value that, you know, And for us, it's important that we write our narrative. There were people who attacked us, who tried to kind of imprint on us some sort of

narrative about what we were about, and it also kind of reverberated in a national and international way. And we're really taking control of the narrative here. We're saying, you know, we are going to say who we are, and we're going to express that, you know, and we do value art, you know, we want it to be an art that reflects our values. Right. I think that this is a recognition that art does have power. It had the power to harm. It had the power to bring great harm to this community. But it was, you know, that art was harming people just by existing in that space even before Unite the Right.

And now those same materials have, hopefully, the power to bring some repair. So it wasn't just the practical. You know, I think you were saying it started out as sort of a practical question. what do you do with this large object? And so the practical answer is you reduce its size, you melt it down, you remove it and you melt it down. But it's not just practical, right? There is incredible symbolic value in using that material, that metal right in some of the articles you all talked about um as it was melting there were impurities in the metal so as the statue was being melted down the impurities are being extracted from it it's being purified and now it can be repurposed and that's really beautiful yeah it is yeah the slag getting pulled off the top and just yeah just it it was incredible you know to to, for sure. And so at this stage, you guys are soliciting community input.

I think there's a sort of a community survey out about sort of what parks people frequent, how they're using the parks, how they're engaging with the parks. And you said this year there'll be a request for proposals for artists to sort of put forth their vision for this bronze. Right. this bronze right and this is it's nice because this is all coinciding with the city of charlottesville has for some time wanted to do a renovation of of its downtown park so this is and this has been a long time coming that far you know predated you know all of this drama with the with the statues um but it's just really a nice opportunity to just kind of for the community to just kind of take stock it's like okay we're you know we're what are we you know going on seven years out from unite the right you know we're eight years out from you know zionist initial petition you know you know this

the statue's been you know taken away it's been melted and and it just feels like a literal and figurative clearing of the land you know it just feels like you literal and figurative clearing of the land. You know, it just feels like, you know, people have asked, you know, sometimes it's like, oh, there's, you know, all that empty space at the parks. And it's like, yeah, isn't it nice? I mean, to just kind of, I think it's nice to just have, you know, just push the pause button for, you know, in terms of things that are there for several years and just kind of allow our, our minds to open, you know, just like the, the, the space itself and just to just imagine what that space can look like. I think it's really instructive and I wish more communities could have the opportunity to do this actually. Yes. But, you know, for instance, taking that survey, you know,

that the community members in Charlottesville are doing now about, you know, yeah. How, how, you know, where, where do you, what parks do you go to? What activities do you engage in there? What do you like? You know, what would you like to see more of? You know, this sort of thing. It's great to, you know, to consider this. You know, America's, you know, the United States' public parks has been something that, you know, since the 19th century is something that's been a real gem, you know, in some of our public spaces, you know, in some of our cities. And, you know, and this is something to, you know, to celebrate.

And it's nice to be able to kind of take stock and to really, you know, think about how public spaces can express our professed values, you know? Instead of sort of reacting to hate, like taking a moment to envision not our reaction to or, you know, what we don't want, but think about what we do want in that space. Exactly. And what would serve our community. and what would serve our community. And I think that's sort of where the project is now, right? Just sort of envisioning a positive future rather than trying to remediate a negative past. And it's so nice because I felt like we were fighting,

fighting, fighting for so many years. You know, we're in court or we're protesting or we're going to lobby at the General Assembly or now we're going to city council. I mean, there was just, you know, so fraught. And so now it's just so freeing to like, oh, to be able to imagine, you know, and to be thinking forward. Yeah. And constructively and creatively. That's a great feeling. So how can people sort of keep up with Swords and Deplowshares, stay up to date on the project and its progress? And more importantly, how can they support Swords and Deplowshares?

the project and its progress? And more importantly, how can they support Swords into Plowshares? Yeah. So you can visit sipcivil.com. That's S-I-P-C-V-I-L-L-E.com. So Sipcivil, that's Swords into Plowshares, Sipcivil. And we have occasional updates there with news stories about what we're doing and upcoming meetings, which will be happening at the Jefferson School, where we'll be, you know, kind of presenting results of, you know, surveys that we've done, yeah. And also visiting speakers who will be coming to talk about, you know, what does art mean in public spaces you know so we'll be able to kind of you know talk with uh you know some experts that have come in you know to advise us on on you know how to think about about what we want in our in our in our parks

going forward and can people make donations to sip on the website yes on the website there is a portal right there on on sipseville.com definitely uh welcome that as well and those donations go towards for the the ultimate creation of this piece of art correct right all right it is uh yeah not cheap to work with that much it is not yeah so we're we're you know putting together you know fund to pay the artists you know for the commissioning the not yeah so we're we're you know putting together a you know fund to pay the artist you know for the commissioning the artist you know we're also um applying for you know grants from foundations and this sort of thing too but of course there are other expenses associated with uh you know processing materials and yeah uh and all that so yeah so that is s-i-p-c-V-I-L-L-E dot com slash donate to make sure that artist gets paid.

Absolutely. Well, Jalene, thank you so much for joining us today. And I'm looking forward to seeing our new beautiful piece of art, hopefully by 2027. Yeah, yeah, it's great. Well, thank you for your interest, Molly. And thank you to all the listeners and supporters out there. It means a lot to us that, you know, your interest in us and your support. Appreciate it. I think we all love those photos of Lee's melting face. It is iconic. I got to say it's iconic. You know, I, yeah, we'll always have that, have that memory.

Thank you so much. All right. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at CoolZoneMedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons?

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