It Could Happen Here - Mutuality feat. Andrew

Episode Date: February 20, 2025

Andrew and Mia discuss how an anarchist society functions, how people can relate to each other, and how our current society conspires to keep us from being free.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey Brooklyn Nine Niners! It's a reunion! The ladies of the Nine Nine are getting back together for a special episode of the podcast More Better. Host Stephanie Beatriz and Melissa Fumero welcome friend and former castmate Chelsea Peretti. Remember when we were in that scene where you guys were just supposed to hug and I was standing there? Oh yeah! I was like, can I also hug them? Listen to More Better with Stephanie and Melissa on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow More Better and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today. This is John Cameron Mitchell and my new fiction podcast series, Cancellation Island, stars

Holly Hunter as Karen, a wellness influencer who launches a rehab for the recently canceled. In the future we will all be canceled for 15 minutes, but don't worry we'll take you from broke to woke or your money back. Cancellation Island's revolutionary rehab therapies like Bad Touch Football, Anti-Racism Spin Class and mandatory ayahuasca ceremonies are designed to force the cancel to confront their worst impulses. But everything starts to fall apart when people start disappearing. Karen, where have you brought us?

Cancellation Island, where a second chance might just be your last. Listen to Cancellation Island on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your last. Listen to Cancellation Island on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Why would you do that to me? Los Angeles, 2021. A friendly neighbor appears out of nowhere and promises to make all my dreams come true.

Let's not forget that David Blume was a professional con artist. So you didn't stand a chance. But my dreams soon turned into a nightmare. I'm Caroline DeMore. Listen as I take down my scammer on Once Upon a Con on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Celebrate Black excellence with decisions, decisions on the Black Effect Podcast Network during Black History Month. From the deepest conversations and the most authentic storytelling, you're going to get it every Monday on Decisions Decisions. If you could go back in time and witness a historical event, which one would you choose?

When you're in the elevator with the lawn, I won't be the... Listen to Decisions Decisions on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. Call Zone Media. G'day, g'day. This is Andrew Sage bringing you yet another episode of It Could Happen Here. As my granny used to say when she answered the phone, what's happening? And the answer in this case is Anarchy. Last episode I gave a definition of Anarchism. The anarchism is the political philosophy and practice that opposes all authority along

with its justifying dogmas and proposes the unending pursuit of Anarchy, a world without rule where self-determination, mutuality, and free association form the basis of our society. And then we took that definition and broke it down a bit further. You can go back to that episode if you want to hear how, but I left my explanation a bit incomplete. I didn't get into the positive side of the definition. So today I am joined once again by... Mia Wong, also who does this podcast and who is excited to talk about building the new

world in the shell of the old. Let's go. So anarchism proposes the unending pursuit of anarchy. A world without rule where self-determination, mutuality and free association form the basis of our society. So the unending pursuit element is another important part of the definition. You know it's ongoing, it's a strive, it's not some perfect utopia that we reach and stagnate with it. In fact, it's not even assuming that people will become

perfect anarchists. It's about constantly and constantly pushing to be better. To create systems that produce better outcomes and greater anarchy. To continuous redevelopment of the values necessary to maintain anarchy. to never get complacent and to understand this is a species level project. The idea of anarchy being a world without rule is actually something that gets some pushback from some anarchists as well. There's this sort of rules not rulers version of anarchism that has a lot of sway in some circles.

Ah, the anarcho-constitution. Yes, the anarcho-constitutionalists. It was popularized by the sort of direct democracy, libertarian Marxist crow that kind of got their popularity in the 80s and 90s. But it's not something that I consider an accurate representation of what anarchism strives for. Now that we have access to more historical anarchist literature than ever, if you dive into any of it and get to the root of what anarchism is, it becomes very clear that anarchists

were not into this whole era of democracy thing. They weren't really into any form of democracy as in the rule by majority or the rule by some abstraction called the people. Anarchism is really about, it's not just no rulers, it's also no rule. I've been brought into this understanding by the efforts of the translator and sort of scholar of anarchist history, Sean Wilwell, who in my opinion is putting forward some of the best historical analysis of anarchism today. He's actually who inspired a lot of my definition of authority in

anarchism. And so I'll have his work linked in the show notes of course, but in this getting into this sort of no rules definition of anarchy, a lot of you might ask, you know, wouldn't we still need rules? But of course, enforceable rules are just really a form of laws that are backed by authorities which anarchism opposes. And unenforceable rules are not really rules at all, they're closer to norms of behaviour. And if living in a society tells you anything, you should know that norms should be as open to questioning as the most rigid of rules. In fact norms can be even more

dangerous if we let them slide as just the way that things are and the way we do things around here. Yeah, like patriarchy, for example, something that is, I mean, like, obviously, yes, particularly is enforced by the state and by like explicit violence, but it is also really, really enforced by norms. Yeah. In a way that like, you know, requires requires you to reckon with norms as a concept theoretically. Yeah, there's a concept of authority that is inherent in Petroch and that is also the set of norms that exist to aid and to reinforce that authority.

We tend to speak a lot of the people in the community and stuff at Anarchist Circles, but I think it's important to make sure it's clear that there's nothing special about quote unquote the people or quote unquote the community. You know, what the people or the community thinks is right and wrong should not be all that must test on what is right and wrong. There's no virtue in being a majority, and there's also no virtue in being a minority. Because we can see with instances where there are minorities such as the elite, the rich, who obviously have us over all the time. And there are instances

of majorities that just exist to reinforce a lot of the rules and norms and authorities that are keeping all of us down. So a Lickmer's test is not what a majority votes for, what a majority wants, or what minorities desire. It's really the absence of authority, the absence of this sort of power over others at all. And it's also inevitably the absence of permission and prohibition, the ability to permit things, the ability to prohibit things. When a thing is allowed and a thing is disallowed,, people can do what they want, but everybody else can also do what they want. And so that creates the incentive to be thoughtful and responsible in what you do and to be thoughtful and responsible in how what you do affects

other people. You do things and your things are open to any number of consequences and so if you want to avoid negative consequences you gotta get informed. You have to learn about how your actions might affect others through communication with individuals and groups and you have to find compromises and solutions to points of conflict. You're not an island, you're part of a web of mutually interdependent relationships. And that's something that exists in every kind of society at mutual interdependence. The problem with hierarchy is that in a hierarchical society to access that web of mutual interdependence you have to obey authority, you have to take part in the authoritarian systems to have

access to human community. So in an anarchic society you don't have as much of an authority, but our behaviour is still regulated in a sense that we are dependent on other people and we want to have as much as possible a harmonious relationship with those other people. Perhaps controversially I could say that there is actually an absence of rules and rulers that makes anarchism work. Because for one, harm can never be fully captured by rules and rules cannot capture all the possible circumstances where harm could occur. But also for two, the existence of rule often provides protections for authorities.

This is something we talked about in our definition of authority in the last episode. This idea that authorities have the right that grants it privileges and protections. The idea that the police officer can beat you up but you cannot raise a hand in defense of yourself. The bank can evict you from your home but you can't be throwing molotovs into the bank. That sort of thing is a very unequal relationship that is enforced and defended by rules, by the rights granted by those rules. And so rather than approach in society with a one size fits all approach to rules that are enforced by some type of authority, we can instead create solutions that are tailored specific

problems. And yes, we might approach concepts like best practice and solving problems and conflicts, but that'll be different from rules. That's something that's not enforced, something that's constantly in negotiation, something that's constantly taken into practice and developed and shifted and is far more flexible. I know that it can be difficult to break away from the idea that we need rules and that the rulers are essential, but it's necessary that we can conceptualise anarchy from that angle with that implication. And it's difficult because of how we've been socialised, how we tend to view human nature. You know, take time to develop these ideas

to dwell them further. I'm still grasping some of these things and trying to understand them. But between this episode and the next and all the books and all the work that is being put out there to sort of develop anarchism, to bring it to more people. And of course through practice we can get a clearer sense of how anarchist organization can work in all of its harmonious complexity. I say organization and complexity specifically because it is often assumed that the presence of anarchism is the absence of organization or the absence of complexity because those terms are often associated with

or synonymized with hierarchy and authority but you can't have organization and complexity without them. The more better the merrier, title of your podcast. All your old Brooklyn Nine-Nine friends are appearing on your favorite podcast, More Better. Don't miss Brooklyn Nine-Nine stars and show hosts Stephanie Beatriz and Melissa Fumero as they welcome their friends and former castmates back to laugh about old times and swap some stories. This week, it's Gina Linetti herself, the talented Chelsea Peretti. Remember when we were in that scene where you guys were just supposed to hug and I was

standing there? Yeah! I was like, can I also hug them? Then next week, the 9-9 nonsense continues as the more better amigas sit down with Joe Lattrullio, aka Detective Charles Boyle. There'll be more laughs, more conversation, more stories from the set, and more, more better. Don't miss a minute. You felt safe enough to throw out a bad idea, right?

I mean, that is the key, because you're definitely not throwing out good ideas all the time. I mean, that's just not how it works. Listen to More Better with Stephanie and Melissa on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Jon Stewart is back at The Daily Show, and he's bringing his signature wit and insight John Stewart is back at The Daily Show and he's bringing his

signature wit and insight straight to your ears with The Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports, and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondents and contributors. And with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed?

Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here? How goes lower? I met Santi at a luau party in October. I'm Santi. Damien. Oh, it was bizarre. The guy just disappeared one day. Santi has been missing ever since. The hookup. What is that?

I'm solving a mystery through sex and haven't made a private dick joke until now? Like, no matter how hard I try, all roads lead to... The hookup. You think it's causing people to turn aggro? I'm gonna rip your arms off and use them to f- Yeah, that's a word for it. This is such terrible representation, I'm so sorry. Poppers?

These aren't just any poppers. Mama always used to say, God gave me gumption in place of a gag reflex. No, not my psychiatrist didn't laugh at that one either. Listen to The Hookup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I'm Mark Seale. And I'm Nathan King.

This is Leave the Gun, Take the Canoli. The five families did not want us to shoot that picture. Leave the Gun, Take the Canoli is based on my co-host Mark's best-selling book of the same title. And on this show, we call upon his years of research to help unpack the story behind the Godfather's birth from start to finish. This is really the first interview I've done in bed. We sift through innumerable accounts, many of them conflicting, and try to get to the

truth of what really happened. And they said, we're finished, this is over. They know this is not going to work. You gotta get rid of those guys. Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli features new and archival interviews with Francis Ford Kobla, Robert Evans, James Kahn, Talia Shire, and many others. Yes, that was a real horse's head. Listen and subscribe to Leave the Gun, Take the Canole on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So on the next part of the definition we get into the idea of anarchy being a world where

self-determination, mutuality and free association form the basis of our society. Self-determination is probably the easiest to explain of the three terms that are used to define such a society because it's just the idea that individuals can define and pursue their own paths. It's the belief that people can define and pursue their own paths. It's the belief that people, individually and collectively, have the capacity to live and organize themselves in ways that reflect their own needs, desires and values. It rejects the notion that others, whether they be states, corporations, religious institutions or other elites, should have the power to dictate the lives of individuals or impose

structures of exploitation and control. Self-Determination is the basis of autonomy which is necessarily followed by free association. But first and foremost I want to get into the idea of mutuality. Mutuality is feeling and action, a relationship that is based on shared benefit between individuals and groups in a society. It is reciprocity, it is communication, it is sharing of sentiments and an exchange of positive actions. And it is not unique to anarchy.

Mutual interdependence, which is a component of mutuality, is also not unique to anarchy. It can be found in pretty much every society. Because we rely on mutuality to survive and progress through our day to day life. Whether we're working together to clean the house for Christmas, or troubleshooting a problem in the workplace, or taking part in a club or sport, or sharing resources following a natural disaster. Mutuality happens constantly, informally and often without recognition. This is something that Kramer talks about and in depth of his 5000 years he says this

is the glue that holds society together. Not contracts or power power but solidarity, empathy and the natural human inclination to care for others. Our world is so divided and yet we still find ways to care. And are there obstacles to that care? Of course. There are various prejudices, propagandized mindsets, socioeconomic systems and material conditions that limit our practice of mutuality. These are problems that Anarchy seeks to rectify. Obviously, issues like colonialism and white

supremacy have fractured societies along racial lines and created distress and competition where mutuality could flourish. The propaganda perpetuated by states and corporations also limits our capacity to imagine mutuality and creates a sense of scarcity and competitive mindset that creates an unnecessary dichotomy between the success of the individual and the success of the collective. Because of the very nature of these hierarchical systems, our forced and unsent exploits of relationships, things like mutual aid end up being replaced by transactional exchanges. Care and community become commodities. Basic human needs become profit driven markets.

And the state takes on a lot of the role that was formerly filled by mutuality. Just the idea of disaster response for example is dominated by bureaucratic agencies that monopolize and direct the resources that could be used and more effectively used by people addressing their own needs locally. And of course with the implementation of the property regime, with privatisation and fencing off the commons that once supported communal life, it creates that sort of scarcity that limits our interpersonal practice of neutrality. And when people are poor, when they're struggling to meet their own needs, they often lack the

resources or energy to extend help to others. Food insecure families may not have the capacity to engage in community support networks. Or if you look at how cities are often designed, they're structured to isolate people. They make it harder for people to form bonds of trust. The existence of all these non-places like highways, the absence of third places, and the prevalence of suburban sprawl all make it more difficult for us to form bonds of trust and solidarity. And then of course you have the intervention of the state into people's efforts to engage in mutual aid. The state punishes and criminalizes mutual aid efforts for migrants or for homeless people.

You'll often see the police or border authorities preventing people from helping those people, charging them with criminal penalties just for trying to help their fellow human. And all these are things that limit the free and full flourishing of mutuality. We shouldn't look to the limit of mutuality in our current system as an indication of how it might be limited in another system. In fact, we can look at these limits and see what ways mutuality could flourish even further when they no longer exist. So by taking the time to dismantle prejudices, to challenge propaganda, to build alternatives

and to create abundance, we can start to recognise the potential of our mutuality. And so really getting from point A to point B, it becomes a matter of expanding our solidarity, which would expand our capacity for mutuality to drive our social organisations. Solidarity is about establishing and recognising the bond between all people. Understanding that I stand to gain from you doing well and vice versa. Remember that our system incentivizes selfishness that acts to the detriment of others. So anarchy doesn't need perfect people, it just needs systems that have better incentives.

So anarchic systems would incentivize generosity and selflessness of course, but the real trick is really in creating systems that utilize selfishness to the benefit of others. Making it so that even the most self-interested and self-absorbed people are a net positive or at least a net zero on the impacts on the rest of society because they will find themselves acting in ways that are generous and that are selfless in order to get the gains that they desire for themselves. You can call it a kind of a selfish selflessness. Yeah and it's funny because like that's the sort of justification that capitalism uses

that like oh if everyone that purely acts in their self-interest and everything will like get better for everyone you know but it's effectively just like a coat of paint that's been put on a system that people use their self-interest to make things better for exactly them. Yeah. So clearly the system of capitalism has these systemic incentives and structures that allow for selfishness, not only expand and propagate and be reinforced, it also ensures that that impulse and inclination

has an extraordinary impact on the lives of millions of people. An individual selfish person cannot do that much to impact others, but put them in a position of power and all of a sudden their decisions can impact lives of thousands, millions, even billions. So the practice of anarchy is a way of creating a society where no one stands above another and where lives are built on cooperation instead of domination. Reshaping how we practice mutuality by building new habits of cooperation that work without rulers.

And that's what social revolution is all about. It's an ongoing and intentional transformation of our society, of our economy and culture and philosophy and technology and relationships and politics. It's the ongoing negation of all forms of authority and prejudice and the ongoing affirmation of freely associating equals. It is in many ways a reconstitution of our natural initiative, our capacity for mutuality and our responsibility for ourselves and each other and that starts here and now, not at some distant point in the future. It won't be easy but it's necessary to unshackle our mutuality, to create a society

where it can flourish. And this is where we get into things like mutual aid. It confuses charity very often but it's a manifestation of our mutuality. It's a voluntary and mutually beneficial exchange of services and resources in a society and so it's not about tit for tat payback or measuring each person's contributions. It's about taking responsibility for one another as members of a society and building social relations that sharpen our ability to collaborate and share. To paraphrase Peter Kropotkin, practicing mutual aid is the surest means for giving

each other into all of the greatest safety, the best guarantee of existence and progress, bodily, intellectually and morally. With mutual aid, like I said earlier, it derives its basis from our interdependence, which is another component of mutuality. Mutual interdependence is the very basic idea that we rely on each other for various aspects of our lives in every kind of society. And in anarchy our mutual interdependence is unrestricted by authority and instead guided by complementarity.

So we are all approached and appreciated as unique equals cooperating on that basis. Mutual responsibility is another manifestation of mutuality. It's the idea that in the absence of legal order, in the absence of authority, when society is no longer guided by laws that are binding and enforceable by some authority, we must be guided instead by responsibility. That actions are pre-authorized or prejudged by external rules, but that each action is undertaken freely and subject to any number of responses, positive and negative. If you're curious about this idea of legal order and permission, prohibition and mutual responsibility,

I recommend Sean Wilber's A New Glossary on the Libertarian Labyrinth as it offers the exploration of that concept and a lot more to synthetic anarchism. So Anarchy demands a high degree of self-awareness, care and reciprocity from individuals and communities. Not through coercion or enforcement but through voluntary, continuous and conscious negotiation incentivised by the nature of the system itself, with its basis in cooperation and the desire to prevent unnecessary conflict. In hierarchical systems, a unit of justice often escalates conflict. Imprisonment, for example, tends to breed resentment and resistance and further criminalization.

In anarchy, the absence of pre-authorized retaliation encourages us to find dialogue and to create restorative practices. If a conflict arises over a resource, people have an interest in reaching a resolution that benefits both, rather than escalating things into prolonged disputes. So such a society will necessarily require responsibility. Both responsibility for the environment, and responsibility for other people. if you are costing the ecosystem its resources, you can't just offload that cost onto everybody else as it's common in capitalist systems.

You have to be in dialogue with other people to ensure that your actions are balanced by replenishing the resource by mitigating harm or by securing some kind of collective agreement. And if somebody is creating a disruptive situation, if they're blasting loud music at night, we kind of rely on an external authority to mediate, but we have to mediate in some way. We have to find ways to ensure that they pay the costs of disturbing others, whether that involves apologizing or making amends or adjusting their behaviour, or if they don't want to take on other people facing other consequences as necessary. So social revolution really aims to prepare us for that responsibility. It's as Wilbur

describes a basic principle for encountering, recognising and engaging with others. It's our beefed up and extremely demanding version of the golden rule. The organic emergence of this responsibility and the incentives of this system could create a sort of a mutual understanding, which is another aspect of neutrality. As people will necessarily form norms of behaviour that will guide the interactions between them, they'll facilitate consultation and negotiation, they'll restrain the escalation of conflict, they'll maintain the viability of shared commons and libraries of things. And similarly our desire to prevent the escalation of conflict, to prevent threats our being and to prevent threats to our

social harmony or society's integrity, would thus develop a sense of mutual defense. It's in all of our interests to minimize the potential harm of our actions, to practically seek out solutions to potential and actual conflict, to ensure that we won't get flak and pushback and negative consequences to the things that we do and threats to the sustainability of our society and our lives. The more better the merrier, title of your podcast. All your old Brooklyn Nine-Nine friends are appearing on your favorite podcast, More Better. Don't miss Brooklyn Nine-Nine stars and show hosts Stephanie Beatriz and Melissa Fumero

as they welcome their friends and former castmates back to laugh about old times and swap some stories. This week, it's Gina Linetti herself, the talented Chelsea Peretti. Remember when we were in that scene where you guys were just supposed to hug and I was standing there? Oh, yeah! So I was like, can I also hug them?

Then next week, the 9-9 nonsense continues as the more better amigas sit down with Joe Lattrullio, AKA Detective Charles Boyle. There'll be more laughs, more conversation, more stories from the set, and more, more better. Don't miss a minute. You felt safe enough to throw out a bad idea, right? I mean, that is the key, because you're definitely

not throwing out good ideas all the time. I mean, that's just not how it works. Listen to More Better with Stephanie and Melissa on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Jon Stewart is back at The Daily Show Show and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with The Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment,

sports, and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the shows, correspondents, and contributors. And with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed? Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here? How? Goes lower?

I met Santi at a luau party in October. I'm Santi. Damien. Oh, it was bizarre. The guy just disappeared one day. Santi has been missing ever since. The hookup. What is that?

I'm solving a mystery through sex and haven't made a private dick joke until now? Like no matter how hard I try, all roads lead to... The hookup? You think it's causing people to turn aggro? I'm gonna rip your arms off and use them to f- Yeah, that's a word for it. This is such terrible representation, I'm so sorry. Poppers? These aren't just any poppers.

Mama always used to say, God gave me gumption in place of a gag reflex. No? But my psychiatrist didn't laugh at that one either. Listen to The Hook Up on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I'm Mark Seale. And I'm Nathan King. This is Leave the Gun, Take the Canole. The five families did not want us to shoot that picture.

Leave the Gun, Take the Canole is based on my co-host, Mark's best-selling book of the same title. And on this show, we call upon his years of research to help unpack the story behind the godfather's birth from start to finish. This is really the first interview I've done in bed. Ha ha ha ha! We sift through innumerable accounts.

I see 35 pages, very much. Many of them conflicting. That's nonsense. There were 60 pages. And try to get to the truth of what really happened. And they said, we're finished, this is over. They know it's not gonna work. You gotta get rid of those guys, this is a disaster.

Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli features new and archival interviews with Francis Ford Kobla, Robert Evans, James Kahn, Talia Shire, and many others. Yes, that was a real horse's head. Listen and subscribe to Leave the Gun, Take the Canole on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And for yet another manifestation of mutuality, we come to the idea of mutual interests, which are what make free association as the basis of an anarchic social organization possible.

Free association is the founding principle of anarchic social organization, and it refers to the ability of each person to move around, to associate and disassociate with others as they so choose, without being subject to authority. Free association is free from the impositions of wage labor, from the boundaries of citizenship, and from all other hierarchical relationships. This is different from the sort of liberal idea of freedom of association, where under capitalism that freedom of association is the freedom that comes with signing contracts and controlling private property. So being free from authority,

we still have to do what we have to do because we're still mutually independent. But that free association empowers people to connect with others and to form groups based around shared interests or desired actions to pursue those interests or actions. So our interests might be as broad as wanting to eat, or as niche as wanting to maintain the traditional Japanese art of wood joinery, or they might span the globe, or they might be unique to a particular interest, such as those who are interested in maintaining the cleanliness of a local river. So groups don't just exist for the sake of existing, they don't exist to perpetuate their own existence. They exist with a particular goal in mind, whether that is maintaining roads, producing and distributing food or building housing. And then such groups may exist for a

long time or they may dissolve frequently. They may split or emerge, they may overlap or come into conflict, and the spaces where they interact could be called spaces of encounter. They can place in factories or gardens, specifically tailored online platforms, or some sort of community centre. So free association may occur on the level of networks of individuals or federations of groups. But I need to explain the commune and the federation because those are things that can be interpreted in a few different ways.

You know, federations, people who might think of government, communes who might think of, well, local government or counties or something of that nature. Yeah, hippie cult. That too. So I'm accused of both finding ways to cooperate in ways that are not bound by the traditional boundaries of authority, and that includes the traditional boundaries of shared territory. The Anakis commune has been confused very often with things like intentional communities or administrative divisions. But if we're going by Kropotkin's description in Words of a Rebel,

chapters 10 to 11, he makes it clear that commune describes any group formed on the basis of free association. In fact, he juxtaposes the free commune with traditional conceptions of the commune. He says for us, quote, commune no longer means a territorial agglomeration. It is rather a generic name, A synonym for the grouping of equals which knows neither frontiers nor walls. The social commune will soon cease to be a clearly defined entity. Each group in the commune will necessarily be drawn towards similar groups in other communes. They will come together and the links that federate them will be as solid as those that attach them to their fellow citizens. And in this this way they will emerge a commune of interests whose members are scattered in a thousand towns

and villages. Each individual will find the full satisfaction of his needs only by grouping with other individuals who have the same tastes but inhabit a hundred other communes." So Kropotkin's commune is essentially a fluid collective of individuals and groups, wherever they find themselves, coming together of their own volition and according to their shared interests, projects and activities without being bound to territorial designations. So don't expect to see a bunch of mini-governments all over Anarchy. Because an abstract group in that community may not even necessarily share many real interests in common.

As we're trying to put them all into one body, one polity that is responsible for identifying and enacting their will, it tends to be dominated by the group's most dominant voices. It tends to subordinate individuals to the will of a nebulous collective, a nebulous majority. As the alternative to this sort of polity form, as Wilbur describes it, is the Federative Principle, understood in its most radical anarchic senses. So not in the sense of networking conventional static polities like a confederation of city-states, but instead bringing together the information and perspectives necessary to facilitate the

dynamic process of free association. We could look to Antinomies of Democracy, another bit of writing by Wilbur, which further explains how the Federative Organization is the process by which we identify specific social selves as an interest or need and establish their involvement in large-scale collectivities that are formed on the basis of those conversion interests. So these collectivities might exist on a consultative basis, as they seek out and disseminate information or advice that relates to interests, but the recognition where relevant of expertise. So there might be such associations based on armed defence, or co-housing construction, or agroforestry.

There may be consultative associations with a journalistic focus, or with a rewilding focus, or an accessibility focus. And they may exist on any scale, depending on the specificity of the information needed. From as the locals and apartment building, to as far-reaching as a continent, or even the entire globe. Consultative associations could create blueprints, they could document the available labour and expertise, they can source resources and they can share feedback. All so that interested and affected individuals and groups can easily access everything they

need to make informed decisions. So in Anarchy, we'll see a variety of individuals grouping together and interacting in ways that are perhaps illegible from our top down view of society, but in ways that work to accomplish their goals, resolve their conflicts and maintain social harmony. It can be difficult to imagine this possibility due to how thoroughly our disempowerment and domestication has been. We live under a global order that seems to deny any alternatives and extols its understanding of human nature as the only

valid interpretation. The propaganda of our education, our mass media, and our inherited understanding as subjects in a hierarchical society has limited our consciousness of our situation and thus our drives and powers to transform our situation. There are those of us who can overcome this through theoretical and historical study, but there are others who can only overcome this condition through demonstration. Some are not convinced by intellectual anarchist arguments. They have to be transformed through experiences. So to borrow the terminology of innovation adoption, it is up to us early adopters, those who are into the revolution before it becomes cool, to convince the majority of the possibility of freedom by example.

And furthermore, as William Gillis wrote in The Distinct Radicalism of Anarchism, quote, to reach a moment where we sit back, entirely satisfied, would be to abandon anarchism. To the radical there is no litmus for due diligence, no final finish line, no moment where we pat ourselves on the back. The vigilance of the radical is never satiated. End quote. And that's it for me today. We'll get more into revolution, powers, drives, and consciousness, and more in future

episodes. In the meantime you can check out, drives, and consciousness, and more in future episodes. In the meantime, you can check out my channel, AndrewZom, on YouTube. I talk about things like this all the time. I've been Andrew Sage. This is It Could Happen Here. All power to all the people. Peace. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media.

For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for It Could Happen Here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening. Hey, Brooklyn Nine Niners. It's a reunion. The ladies of the Nine Nine are getting back together for a special episode of the podcast, More Better. Host Stephanie Beatriz and Melissa Fumero

welcome friend and former castmate, Chelsea Peretti. Remember when we were in that scene where you guys were just supposed to hug and I was standing there? Oh yeah! I was like, can I also hug them? Listen to More Better with Stephanie and Melissa on America's number one podcast network, iHeart.

Follow More Better and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today. This is John Cameron Mitchell and my new fiction podcast series, Cancellation Island, stars Holly Hunter as Karen, a wellness influencer who launches a rehab for the recently canceled. In the future, we will all be canceled for 15 minutes, but don't worry. We'll take you from broke to woke or your money back. Cancellation Island's revolutionary rehab therapies like Bad Touch football, anti-racism spin class, and mandatory ayahuasca ceremonies are designed to force the cancel to confront their worst impulses.

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podcasts. Celebrate Black excellence with decisions,isions on the Black Effect Podcast Network during Black History Month. From the deepest conversations and the most authentic storytelling, you're going to get it every Monday on Decisions Decisions. If you could go back in time and witness a historical event, which one would you choose? Put me in the elevator with the lawn. I won't be the...

Oh! Listen to Decisions Decisions on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast.