It Could Happen Here - Nurses Strikes and Class War in the UK, Part 2

Episode Date: March 30, 2023

Mia continues her conversation with Nick about the recent strikes and how rank and file pressure and organization can transform unions   https://action.rcn.org.uk/page/117402/donate/1?ea.tracking.id=internalSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I don't feel emotions correctly. I collect my roommate's toenails and fingernails. Those were some callers from my call-in podcast, Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take phone calls from anonymous strangers

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the militancy in this in this french where yeah yeah and i think part of it comes down to is because the rcn was historically for a significant part of the city was not a union, became a union late in the day, but then was for ages anti-strike. A lot of unions, because we can talk about the general critique of unions and particularly institutional unions, how they become service providers, how they build up a protective bureaucracy against militant struggle

or against grassroots militancy. The RCM, it's not a particularly democratic as these things go but it doesn't have that kind of built up institutional inertia

in the trade union side because historically it hasn't needed it and that meant I think it was actually far more susceptible to grassroots pressure and militancy

than some of the other more established unions were. Oh, sorry. No. And that kind of like was the thin end of the wedge for the RCM to take a very strong stance

over the pay rise in response to like grassroots organizing and like a demand from the grassroots to do that which then resulted in them like bouting for strike action first which then meant other unions had to and then we got the and then the cascade of

strikes in the NHS that have occurred since then So this is a very very broad question to be asking but how have the strikes been going? That's kind of a difficult one to say. So

Scotland, for instance, has not been called out, has not actually had any strike days because the Scottish government went into negotiations to begin with and then made an offer. was rejected strikes were announced they made another agreed to come back negotiations so like it's been effective in getting something moving in scotland their current offer of 15 over two years so six something this year five something next year is currently being voted on by the RCM membership.

It's not a good but it's a significant move in what came before. Wales, the Welsh government after saying no, we can't have any more money. We literally can't because Westminster controls our budget. Westminster won't give us any more budget

for this, has now made an improved offer. Westminster won't give us any more budget for this has now made it an improved offer it's crap but it's like something it's forced them to shift when they were claiming it was physically impossible for them to do it every single time

I can think of exactly one time ever where I've seen an employer make that demand and it was actually true but this is not that was like what norfolk southern in like like the 1970s and it's it was only true once and it's never been true ever since then like you will hear this from every fucking employer who you attempt to go on track against and they're always lying like every single time what i will say is like in the case of wales

it is very true the welsh government's budget is set by westminster by the central government so it's a lie but it's a plausible lie yeah and wales is generally massively wales has like some of the highest rates of child poverty outside of eastern europe in europe um the reasons part of the reasons for this is because the Welsh government is chronically underfunded due to political decisions made in England but it's still not true and then in England

like it's got to the point where a government who are categorically opposed to any negotiations with trade unions have actually come to the negotiating table. So from that, although I suspect loads of preconditions that haven't been publicly talked about, they're going to not make a credible offer in my view and as a stalling tactic. But the fact they even chose to come to the table at all.

I hate saying this because it's the kind of thing that makes people complacent, but that is actually quite big. That the Conservative government actually agreed to do it, to come to the negotiating table, stopped hiding behind, oh, there's an independent pay body that decides these things, stopped saying we can't afford to fund the NHS anymore, actually just coming and sitting at the table at all to negotiate. It's like a big movement in itself.

Now, if we talk about numbers of participation in strikes, there's been a lot of difficulties, a lot of nowhere near as many people have participated in the strikes as should have been, I will be frank and say. So now we're going to talk about the derogations, the situation of derogations, which is like the RCcn voluntarily saying we will allow this many people to continue working day these days and these areas in order to maintain

patient safety which is on one hand we don't want any patients to die obviously on the other hand it's a very easily abused stance to take and there are just nurses who are in other trade unions who aren't in trade unions as well and ultimately if they want that not to happen they need to just come to the table earlier and so this resulted in a process where so ITU and like time-sensitive chemo and pediatric A&Es were derogated by default. And then there was an agreement of if the wards had less than like nighttime numbers, we would agree for a small amount of our,

of our membership to go in to work on those wards to maintain nighttime numbers for the sake of patient safety but that had to be applied for on a case-by-case basis basis but which there's a couple of problems with this one trust just not taking it seriously lying of not trying to establish these things to make accurate requests uh leaving it to the last minute and then asking for blanket derogations ah we don't know if it's going to be safe or not managers like ward managers not actually knowing what was agreed and to giving incorrect information to their staff people not understanding what was and wasn't derogated

and just generally it was a system that was very open to abuse and so like a lot of a lot of things were just left open in general or like that shouldn't have been but at the same time i know that it didn't happen in every case but like there was a lot of success in like go members of the strike committee going round wards and saying no you're over number you need to come out and people doing it of like surgeries being cancelled like elective surgeries non-time sensitive surgeries being cancelled due to it of like really making hospital managers sweat over like proving each thing needed to happen they wanted needed to happen those days all of which built up even if we didn't get the full amount of people we should have had out on strike on strike really built up the pressure significant degrees on them to then put the pressure up the chain of the nhs to the governments

like we can't keep on going on like this and at the same time each each set of strikes the number of people participating did increase so like for, I've just got the government statistics from the 15th of December, I think it is. So this was the first strike day that was called. It was 9,999 absences due to industrial action. Then on the 20th, it was 11,509. Then on the 18th and 19th of January, and just one important factor,

they didn't call all hospitals out at once. Again, I think a mistake, a strategic mistake should have gone hard, gone hard fast. But the argument was we don't have the facilities to organize all of this effectively on all of these massive amounts. Because it was a huge amount of trusts they needed to do that with. But then on those days, it was then 11,363 and 11,219 across those two days. Then in February, it was 15,998. Wow.

And then 14 on the second day, 14,058 people, which is far lower than it should have been. I can't remember how many people there are, nurses there are in the NHS, so I should have had that statistic ready. But it's not an inconsiderate amount. It meant lots of outpatients' appointments being cancelled, a lot of surgeries being cancelled, a lot of chaos and stress for the managers of the NHS and therefore for the government

looking really bad for them. And it's a clear upwards trajectory, which meant that when the RCN announced, we're going to do two days consecutive. We're not, we're going to keep it going through the night, which they hadn't done previously. And we're not doing derogations. ITU will be staffed.

Nothing. We're not doing anything else. I think, no, even ITU wasn't staffed. We'd consider it on a case by case basis. We won't be concerned. What's ITU?

Sorry. Intensive care. ICU for America. Oh, I basis. We won't be concerned. What's ICU? Sorry. Intensive care. ICU for America. Oh, I see. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So that meant that at that point, the government probably like, okay, we need to move to a

new delaying tactic. They're not just going to give up. And I think with that, as it went on, like people were itching and itching to go further. went on like people were itching and itching to go further and so for instance like A&E was derogated so which is the area I work in but like a lot of people and this is reflective of like most areas that were derogated when I spoke to people who weren't them like no we need to be out we need to be out the picket line and like after the first two rounds there was also a growing effort to like try and find out from the membership what the actual situation was so that unlike staffing on the wards because all wards are chronically understaffed so when they

said oh well these this amount people say no we know that's a lie we know on nights there's actually only three registered nurses there's not the four you're claiming and stuff like that which again i think was a really positive move in like embedding a kind of like workers inquiry and workers knowledge about their workplace into the organizing of the strike that had been quite a top-down process um but yeah and i'm kind of worried about how this delay and break in the strike action will affect that momentum that had been building up i think like to a large degree people are like itching to go again and i think that desire to go again is building as it goes like when it

initially happened when this first initially called off there was a lot of like trust like in like the big whatsapp groups and stuff initially called off, there was a lot of like trust, like in like the big WhatsApp groups and stuff and talk to people. There was a lot of like people thinking, at least, I don't know if this was represented in general opinion, but people being quite vocal and be saying, no, we need to trust,

like Pat knows what she's doing. They wouldn't have called it off for this thing. It's like, it's getting more and more of those people being like, no, we need to, we need to go. We need to, we need to get back on the picket line and there's been a petition that's been going around that's been getting quite a bit of news like setting out some hard lines like for to the rnc leadership about what kind of stuff they should accept like

saying no we need to stick to the above of inflation busting. We need to not compromise on this. We need to not compromise on this, which has, I think, got 880 signatures. At the moment, this doesn't sound like a huge amount, but like, again, you're going through quite a lot of inertia of like attitude of like,

you've got to leave it to the leadership among the membership, even when they were unhappy with it. And it's only a thousand signatures that are necessary in the RCcn's um where the rcn works to call an extraordinary general meeting which then can do pretty much whatever it wants and that's how the leadership in 2018 was kicked out after the bad pay deal then oh that's really interesting yeah so like the rcn very undemocratic except for this one particular thing yeah is that

is that a normal thing that is it like a normal thing for unions in the in the ukN is very undemocratic, except for this one particular thing. Yeah, is that a normal thing? Is it like a normal thing for unions in the UK? Or is that just like a weird... I think all unions have an amount of people, a set amount where if membership's calling for an extraordinarily general meeting, they have to do it. The RCN's one is really low.

Interesting. Essentially. And there were some moves where like people in the RCM said, oh, we need to change it. We need to get rid of that. And we need, we need to raise it

to be more in line with other unions. But that again is something that we'll have to, that if that does happen, that kind of change would have to go to like a membership wide vote.

It's not something the executive leadership could just impose. That's good. Yeah. Yeah. Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me as the fire and dare enter? Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and dare enter. Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows,

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Check out betteroffline.com. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez.

Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom.

At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, like, there is a process of, like, these strikes were, like, a a process of like these strikes were like a result of like increasing general level of militancy with among nurses in general and among NHS workers.

And I think particularly because everyone knows it's awful, the situation. and then with like a slightly more organised sphere in it that resulted in that in that petition in 2018 arguing for stuff at like congress and things and then that sort of

strike has like got the membership feeling like they should have a more active role and I think it's pushing things in a positive direction even though I think the RCA needs to have gotten to a point where by mistake it ended up a more active role and I think it's pushing things in a positive direction even though I think the RCN leadership has gotten to a point where by mistake it ended up way ahead

of the other unions and it's now trying to back paddle. But I don't, I think there's a lot of potential for like more grassroots organised by the membership

to prevent that happening. Yeah. We are in a difficult position though in that the time is running out. Strike mandates in the UK only last for six months. We are in a difficult position, though, in that the time is running out. Strike mandates in the UK only last for six months. We are... When the government agreed to negotiations, we're at two and a half months left of the mandate.

It's now two months left of the mandate. You have to give two weeks notice before strike action. Oh, so that's what the sort of run-out-the- clock strategy is about on their side okay that makes sense exactly now nothing's to stop us from reballoting yeah but it will be a whole process it has to be a month you have it has to go through the mail yeah it'll be drawn out we'll buy them a lot more time yeah yeah also postal workers I think are on strike again today too I think I've got the strike calendar up on my

computer let's see who's on strike like an absolute fraud I have it on my other computer but I don't have it on this one yeah so today's the 15th today Amazon's on strike in Coventry the BBC's regional services, the civil service,

which will kind of be equivalent to like a federal stuff in America. So like, for instance, my dad, who's a health and safety inspector, is on strike today. HMRC, which is the tax office, is on strike.

Junior Docs is on strike. Ofsted, the school instructors, is on strike. The two main rail unions are on strike. Teachers are on strike and university staff are on strike. Not the Postal Service today, but yeah. Yeah, well, I guess I wanted to ask a bit about that, too, about sort of just what's been happening.

I don't know what you see is sort of the potential of the of the broader strikes have been happening because this is this is a. I don't know. I mean, it's not it's not it's not like a like.

It's not like a 1970s style like strike wave, but it's it's a lot of strikes for the UK in the last decade. It's not like a 1970s style like strike wave, but it's a lot of strikes for the UK in the last decade. It's big. Like there isn't the level of cross-union cooperation and talks that you would want. There's a lot of like people turning up to each other's picket lines. There's a lot of like solidarity present,

but it's not coalescing into like a into like a unified movement which you'd hope to be although I do think if something doesn't change it is moving

in that direction and like the Conservative government is at like an all-time low in its popularity ratings yeah I think I don't know

if you're aware from this quote from margaret thatcher about how her main political goal was remaking the soul of britain um a way because like up until that period there was a very strong trade union movement in the uk that we had like one of the best social democracies in the world like comparable to scandinavia today it was it was far more like a collective attitude in the uk and like margaret thatcher's explicit i can't remember the exact quote but explicit project of the project of the conservative party at the time let's not put it all on her great woman theory of history is as bad as great man's theory of history to move the soul the like

general social attitude and personality of like people in britain away from that like orientations like community and collective struggle and action and there is a part of me that feels like this is a move away from that. Because like everyone you go to, there's whinging about like an inconvenience caused by a strike, but pretty much everyone is like, yeah, they have it. It's awful for them.

It's all the strike drivers. Good on them for standing up for themselves. Good on the teachers for standing up for themselves. Good on postal workers for standing up for themselves. Good on nurses for standing up for themselves. Like the amount of like stuff I've been brought by people on the picket lines has been incredible it's like i each day i've just been like rolling down the hill from my hospital to my house like with a bloated stomach from like stuff members of the public have brought and dropped off at

the picket line it's um it makes me feel like it's there is the optimist part of me it does feel like there is a reorientation in general of british public to like the idea that we don't have to put up with this yeah and you don't have to struggle and try and get it on your own and like it's early days yet but i do see something positive moving in that direction in the UK as a result of this strike wave. Yeah, that's a, that is, I don't know, that is great news from a place that does not usually generate great news. This is like the, this is the deeply optimistic part of me.

On the other hand, you have like bad, a lot of bad news coming out of the UK at the moment. Yeah. Like, this strike wave is good news. It is the fact that it's happening in the NHS in particular, which has been so resistant to industrial action historically, and also just because of what a significant part of the economy it is as well. Because, like, you know the NHS is the eighth biggest employer

in the world. Wow, I didn't know it was in the world that's that's wild yeah like it used to be like um the fifth biggest in the world wow it's it's good yeah it used to only be that the american army the chinese army mcdonald's and walmart would be employees of the nhs we've been overtaken by amazon and such now but Yeah. Like strike action. So like from like a worker's perspective, like strike action of like the largest section of the workforce, nurses in the NHS,

the eighth biggest employer in the world. Leaving aside the situation for everything else in the UK, leaving aside the history of the opposition, like the act of opposition to the idea of striking within nursing historically in the UK, is huge news and something to be hopeful about. And then put into context of the more broader strike wave in the UK and within the NHS in general, this is huge. And it is a sign, I think, of a positive change

and like reorientation towards workplace struggle occurring, I think. Welcome, I'm Danny Threl. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter? Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors

that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season

digging into how Tex Elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, better offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel winning economists to leading journalists in the field. And I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse, and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge, and want them to get back to building things that actually do things

to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough, so join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry, and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh.

And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with.

His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him.. His father in Cuba. Mr. González wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation.

Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Feast, the Elian González story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So I've now heard two different places do this, which was, I heard this in Chile in 2019, and I heard this also on my picket line at the University of Chicago in 2019, which is, like, this is the place

neoliberalism was born, and we will kill it here. Well, I mean, those are the three places, Chile, Chicago, and the UK. Yeah, I think also arguably Germany, although that has a whole other the Ordo Libs are I don't know I think the Ordo Libs

from my understanding of it from listening to some things about it years ago it's more of a family resemblance than the exact same thing as neoliberalism I think I think they got absorbed into the neoliberal bubble yeah so far is like like they're they're the order lives are where the neoliberals got the

sort of like we need to have like an international bureaucracy like sort of legal bureaucracy from like hayek is also like have involved yeah that that's that's a whole other story but yeah like it is it is encouraging to me that it's like i don't know like like the the it really does seem like in the places where neoliberalism was born it's like it's starting to come apart yeah and you know i know people people have been predicting the death of neoliberalism for like long well almost as long as i've been alive but i don't know this this like the fact that it's happening in these places seems different than the other times we've done it. I think it is significant.

I think I am cautiously excited. Every time I hope something bad happens, but I am hopeful now. And, you know, my brain isn't magic. So there can't be a cause of effect there. Yeah. But I don't know.

I mean, like you are the second person I've interviewed from the UK who actually seemed to be like somewhat optimistic about the direction it could possibly be going, which is the first time I've heard that in like, I mean, I guess there are people who are optimistic about Corbin but yeah i don't know this is this is the first sort of like signs of that sense i don't know a long time and i think yeah look like if i was

listening to the american listeners like if turf island isn't doomed then we're not doomed either i don't know here's what i gotta say is well i you're overtaking us on that it's true yeah we have yeah i i am yeah i don't know when this is coming out but i'm gonna i'm gonna be honest man like there's a lot of ways the uk is better than america oh yeah the u.s like is it's a it's a real disaster like it's it's yeah yeah i mean i think we're both equally bad in a lot of ways yeah i think the things the things that like people in the u.s look at england say this is awful and the things people in the uk look at the u.s and say this is awful it's uh it's kind of a a child looking at their parent and being pissed off at them and a child

and a child and a parent looking at their child and being disappointed in them. It's like, no, no, you both suck. It's just family resemblance. It's a we hate our sport. It's a narcissism of small differences like. Yeah. Between the US and the UK a lot of the time. Yeah.

But yeah. Yeah. I guess. Do you have anything else do you want to say about the strikes? I think the fact it got this far

is incredible. There's so much further that needs to go. I'm really excited and I'm really scared. I think this is the potential for like a turning point around

both for the NHS but for my profession for nursing and also like in general, in the context of the White Strike Race for the UK. But, you know, the higher the stakes, the higher the perils, like this is our, I think this is our fight to lose essentially. Like I think if we do it, if we go seriously and the membership takes control of it from the union leadership, which is very cautious, which has been put into position of being more militant,

of unprecedented militancy, almost by accident, while trying to appease the membership, we can achieve something incredible, but it's really... The book's open. It can go either way. And I'm excited and I'm terrified by it. Yeah, if people want to support the strikes,

where can they go? Is there a strike fund they can donate to? Yeah, the RCN has an open strike fund that I would invite anyone they can donate to? Yep, the RCM has an open strike fund that I would invite anyone listening to donate to I would also like find the articles about

the petition they've been going around like the RCM leadership takes a stronger stance and like just share that around generally, create more visibility on that Yeah, we'll put links to both of those in the description. Yeah. Those are the main things I would suggest.

Again, the national nature of this struggle and the fact that it's not even really against our direct employers makes it harder to talk specifically about this thing or that thing in some ways. But yeah, those are the two things I would ask. The bigger our strike, Paul, the easier it is to argue for more aggressive action. And the more visibility there is on that petition, it'll take a lot more than a petition to shift things to the roots to be in the forefront and the leadership position of this

but it's something that will make people feel more empowered put more pressure on the leadership it's like a small stepping point towards what we need i'd also like to recommend a book to anyone who wants to find out more about the history of the nhs in the current situation there some comrades of mine like from a group called the angry workers and also uh revolution i always forget the other group they did it with name oh this is embarrassing yeah anarchist communist group wrote and healthcare workers united which is like a network i'm involved in like put together a book called sick of it which is like a collection of workers inquiries and reflections on the nhs its history its potentials and what and it and stuff that's really a great book sadly not available as an e-book but it's it's an excellent read and like

it'll tell you it'll give you a real insight into what the nhs has been historically and what it is now for anyone who's interested in that that's awesome yeah the angry workers are really cool by the way they're on twitter i probably should have it's probably just angry workers yeah yeah it is oh wait no i'm wrong it's it's workers it's at workers angry i think wait no is this the right one no it's uh yeah it's at workers angry I'm not on twitter I don't know about these things it is a cursed place

yeah getting more cursed oh god yeah if you want to find us at twitter we are at coolsunmedia yeah we're also on instagram I'm told we're on instagram i don't have one so i don't know i this is what i've been being told for many years if we don't uh don't tell me

uh yeah and thank you all for listening and yeah go do your own strikes uh make bosses lives miserable please the more strikes are going on the more people want to go on strike. Hey! It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. Right. An anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating.

I don't feel emotions correctly. I collect my roommate's toenails and fingernails. Those were some callers from my call-in podcast, Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take phone calls from anonymous strangers as a fake gecko therapist and try to learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept,

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