It Could Happen Here - Outlaw: ICE Protest Repression Trends

Episode Date: May 28, 2026

On this episode of Outlaw, Olive is joined by movement attorneys Moira Meltzer-Cohen, Bina Ahmad, and Joey Mogul to discuss trends in the repression of anti-ICE activity across the country and how to prepare for the long road ahead.To learn more about how the law is used to crush dissent, check out the other episodes of Outlaw, an anti-repression podcast. Find past episodes here: https://linktr.ee/outlawpod Follow https://www.instagram.com/outlaw.pod/ on Instagram & @outlawpod.bsky.social Bluesky, & Substack https://outlawpodcast.substack.com/subscribe  Get in touch: [e-mail] more context about J20 or the War on Terror, check out these Outlaw episodes:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/outlaw/id1803156411?i=1000699958987https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/outlaw/id1803156411?i=1000718858590 More on Grand Juries: Final Straw’s past episodes on Grand Juries and Grand Jury Resistance: https://thefinalstrawradio.noblogs.org/post/category/grand-jury/Live like the World is Dying: Mo on Grand Juries https://www.liveliketheworldisdying.com/s1e44-mo-on-grand-juries/ Theme Music: Star by Tufawon https://www.instagram.com/tufawon/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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AllZone Media. Hi, and welcome to Outlaw, a podcast about how the law is used to crush dissent in the U.S. I'm your host, Olive. On the previous episode of Outlaw on It Could Happen here, we zoomed in on the legal repression, of rapid responders in ice-occupied Minneapolis. On this episode, I'm joined by Bina, Joey, and Moe, movement attorneys based in New York, Illinois, and California. In this conversation, we zoom out to talk about the larger trend

and repression of resistance to ice activity across the country and how to prepare for the long road ahead. Welcome to Outlaw to start. Could you all introduce yourselves the world? work you do and how it connects to the repression of anti-ice protest activity. Okay, I guess we're going to start with the oldest here. My name's Joey Mogul. I am based in Chicago. I am the director of movement partnerships at Movement Law Lab, which is a national organization that is very much in the anti-authoritarian fight in the nation. Prior to joining

movement law lab, I was at the People's Law Office for over 26 years, where I did mostly civil rights litigation against law enforcement officials and criminal defense of police violence survivors, as well as protesters and organizers. And at different points have been proud to represent several organizers and many movements seeking justice and liberation. I am also part of Chicago Torture Justice Memorials. a board member of the Chicago Torture Justice Center, and very much involved in the movement for justice redress and particularly reparations for Chicago police torture survivors. During the surge here in Chicago, I was proud to work with a group known as the Black Community Care Collective,

serving as a coordinator of their legal committee. And that was a group that was very much involved in the resistance and care work that was happening during operations. midwapelitz. Joey, I don't know if you're the oldest person here, but I was referred to today as a Gen X loser, if that makes you feel any better. My name is Maura Milzer Cohen. Everybody calls me Mo. I'm an attorney in private practice in New York, and I work in particular to defend people against the politically motivated abuse of the legal system. I also teach. I also teach. federal Indian law, professional responsibility, and lawering at CUNY School of Law to the world's best and most brilliant law students.

Hi, everybody. Bina Ahmed, she, her pronouns. I also have been referred to as an elder, and I don't know when that happened, but here we are. I am currently an associate at a law firm in L.A. called Hatzel Stormer, Renigan, Dye, where I practice civil rights, impact litigation, and also where we are external general counsel for several movement groups, including Muslims for Just Futures and Jewish Waries for Peace. Before going to Hadsel Stormberg, switching to civil rights, I was a state and federal public defender for nearly a decade, a state defender in New York,

and a federal defender here in L.A., prior to that, I practiced international law and animal rights law. And a lot of my motivation as well has been to support movements and organizers fighting back against the state repression. But that's been a big part of my work, giving know-your-rights trainings, advising people and organizers and organizations on their rights and what they, you know, what the losses you can and can't do from a radical lens. Well, thank you all for being here. Over the past few years, from the movement for Palestinian liberation to the many ways people are organizing against ICE and authoritarianism today, I'm curious to start by just hearing a little bit about what broad shifts you're tracking right now in the state's playbook for crushing dissent?

Well, I mean, I think that we've seen, and you're talking to people who've represented organizers and activists who have been prosecuted by state actors for decades. I think that what we're seeing, particularly with this administration, is the weaponization of federal charges. And we're seeing the weaponization of federal charges on mass. And I think this is by design. We are seeing that with the National Security Presidential Memorandum Number 7 issued by President Trump and his administration, where they are wanting to enlist the use of joint terrorism task force to go after people they deem to be, quote, domestic terrorists, unquote. And that means they are going after individuals who they claim have extreme viewpoints on

immigration, radical gender ideology, anti-American sentiment. I don't believe we agree with these determinations, and in fact, we absolutely oppose and object to these determinations, but these are individuals who do not agree with this administration's views or takes on immigration, on gender, on anti-black violence, and the rest. And we see, though, that this administration is actually working hand-and-glove with one another. So after the issuance of the National Security Presidential Memorandum number seven, we now have Pambiani and the U.S. Attorney's Office issuing this memorandum, December 4th, 25, where they are basically calling on the Joint Terrorism Task Force, they're calling on federal agents, and they're calling on the Department of Justice to go after organizers

and activists throughout the nation. They list 27 enumerated crimes in those memos, things like rioting, looting, so-called doxing, swatting, conspiracies to impede or assault law enforcement officers, destruction of property, and the rest, as well as trying to enlist the, use of the IRS and other tax crimes to go after organizers and organizations in several ways. Essentially, anyone who opposes this administration is somewhat in the target sites. Can you tell me more about what these federal charges are and what is new about what we're seeing right now? So now what we've seen since the onset of this administration, so for over a year now,

we have seen the exponential rise and federal charges being locked. against organizers. I think that is very much a different landscape than we have seen in decades. And I don't want to say there hasn't been the use by the Department of Justice to bring federal charges in the past, but not in this massive scale that we are currently seeing it right now. And so what we are seeing is, I would say, in particular, we're seeing these like assault, impeding harassing officer charges, which is 18 U.S.C. Section 111, being brought in scores across the nation. That is not something we typically have seen before. We are also seeing charges of

conspiracy to impede officers, 18 U.S.C. Section 241. Again, that's not something we generally have seen before. Generally, I can say, for example, as someone who was in Chicago, who was part of representing protesters who were protesting the Democratic National Convention, generally the federal government and federal agencies don't get involved in protest-related activity, but for arson cases prior to the Trump administration. That playbook is out and this new playbook is in. So we are absolutely seeing the federal government stepping in and engaging in this policing and persecution of protesters and organizers in a way that we have not seen before.

That said, there's a silver lining here is the federal government is overreaching in so many of these cases. And many of these charges are being dismissed. Many of these charges are being declined by U.S. attorneys. And there have been several not guilty verdicts in L.A., as well as in Chicago, as well as Miami. And further, what I think is striking, and I think that this is really unheard of for criminal defense attorneys in particular, is we're actually seeing grand juries refusing to indict in these cases. And given how biased grand jury investigations go, how one-sided they are, to have the grand juries come back and not return an indictment really is showing that people are resisting and they are not buying the government's slogan and lines and playbook on this,

and they are saying, no, we're not going to put up with this. So while on the one hand, it's a whole new landscape, we're also seeing the counterpart of people resisting, and that includes in the federal courts. If the term grand jury is new to you, it's basically a special jury in federal criminal cases that is appointed to decide if there's enough evidence to bring the official criminal charge, the indictment against a defendant. But they're super rigged against the defendant. Basically, they always indict. And often, the grand jury process is just an information gathering tool for the government, especially in movement cases. People get subcommittee. to testify before grand juries in a way that often seems just like a fishing expedition

because whatever they say can be used against them and only the prosecution gets to present evidence to the grand jury. There's a lot more to say there, but check out the show notes and I'll link some really important conversations and resources about grand juries. I think that's all exactly right, Joey. But it isn't 100% new, right? what the Trump administration is doing is that they are able to police First Amendment protected identities, beliefs, and associations by trying to define those beliefs, identities, and associations as terrorism. And so there's a whole apparatus for fighting terrorism that they then can pull in, draw upon resources they can use. and legal authorities that they can exercise as long as the thing that they're policing is something that can be called terrorism. Well, by defining all of these things as terrorism, that lets them

sort of trigger all of these resources and authorities. Those resources and authorities were not put in place by this administration. They were put in place. They were put in place. post-9-11. They were put in place by Barack Obama. They were put in place by Joe Biden, right? And so this is not a problem with the Trump administration. This is a problem with the surveillance state. This is a problem with consolidating federal police authority and making it easier and easier for the federal law enforcement apparatus to assert. jurisdiction over what we would normally understand to be state-level matters, such as garden-variety protest. And so the shift is not one of kind as much as it is a shift in scope,

where we're seeing the federal government treating, as I said, garden variety protest conduct as though it is militant revolutionary action. Now, I totally agree with that. And to underscore your point, not a single law has needed to be passed. There's been no legislation that's needed to be changed in order to effectuate these prosecutions whatsoever, let alone this immigration enforcement. This all preexisted the Trump administration. His administration hasn't passed a single law. So I absolutely agree with you. I'm just saying, you're right, the garden variety level of prosecutions we haven't seen, and it's the scale of this. But again, we absolutely know, for example, the Biden administration pursued the FACE Act against individuals in Florida regarding, you know, one of these false clinics.

And, you know, it's not that these tools weren't used before. I just think the scope and scale is not what we've seen. Yeah. And I totally agree. And I think it's important to note that the fact that the law hasn't changed is important, not simply because the laws already existed to bring these prosecutions, but because the law actually hasn't changed, which means the First Amendment remains in effect, which means that a lot of these prosecutions, as you pointed out, Joey, are going nowhere because they actually can't really be sustained under the current regime.

Yeah. The scale and the aggressiveness and the scope, I think, is something we haven't really dealt with before. You know, in terms of it being not new, I mean, we know. We know. the founding of this country, and it's not a just system. And I think if we just also start from that, that is the system that protects property and white nationalism and violence and power and capitalism, then I think we can sort of like see where these powers originated from and where the structure originated from. And we've also seen that used against, you know, radical black activists, against the American Indian movement. You know, so like a lot of these things that we're seeing now were tested on communities of color, you know, prior to seeing, okay, what works, what doesn't

work, and then bringing this surge, I think, to our communities. You know, I think in addition to, you know, I think what Joy was saying about the FACE Act, that is something we haven't really seen prosecutions under the FACE Act before, right? Because the FACE Act is actually technically to protect access to abortion clinics. And I think that one thing that this administration is doing is finding creative different ways to manipulate the laws at all. terrible to go after folks in a way that we haven't seen before. Like Mo was saying, like, so much of the work that we've done defending protesters and movements, a lot of it is state. Of course, you know, some has always been federal, but a lot is usually state. And to then see these federal

not only prosecutions for the FACE Act, where I know we'll get into, you know, material support prosecutions, but also like civil litigation, which I think is something we've never, not never, but really we're not prepared for or dealt with as a movement before. These massive civil pieces of litigation that, while on the one hand are brought mostly by private actors like Zionist actors, we know that they're really coordinated by and with the administration, because then the administration has mimicked bringing these same lawsuits against these very same activists for the same causes when we know that they're in coordination. And so I think that's also really important to know is that the civil component, you know, the movement, of course, like criminals where we've

always been the most concerned is someone's liberty is on the line, someone's life is on the line. But civil is also like this slow death, right, of like time and money and just draining organizations that I think is something that we've now had to really grasp. Can I ask you a follow-up question, Bina? Can you break down for people who are listening and really not in the legal world? Why a civil case impacts someone's life? Why civil cases against activists are really disruptive to movements? Sure. There are many ways. So when a civil case lands, I mean, first, you don't have. the right to free counsel like you do with a criminal case. It's not, you know, guaranteed in the Constitution. You're not facing prison time and incarceration. So you're not guaranteed that. So one, you have to find either free counsel or you can pay for someone to defend you. And when the lawsuit

lands, there's so many things that happen. There's an affirmative obligation for you as the one who's being sued to preserve any evidence that could be relevant to the case. That is completely antithetical to what a lot of movements do. We don't like save documents and then turn them over to the other side. We're going to, you know, keep our work internal and our organizing and who we work with. And civil lawsuits really make that really difficult because you have to turn over discovery if it gets that far in the case and you can't, you know, delete things and you can't let things get deleted, like on signal. And if, you know, you can be sanctioned and there's all these things that could happen if they find out that that happened. And then you're subject to, you know, other things like

being deposed, being questioned by the other hand. side about things you don't want to talk about and that are really antithetical to what we what we do. And these cases can go on for years and years. And even if you win, there can be appeals. There's just so much that doesn't feel like it ever ends with civil litigation. And so much where people, you know, even just have moved on in their lives. Like, I've moved to a different city, have a different job now. But you're still always tied back to this civil case. And there's no sort of like right to a speedy trial in a civil case, right? That's for a criminal case. So all of this stuff, and I'm sure there's many other things I'm not mentioning that you have to go through or that impact your life once you're being civilly sued. But a lot of that, you know, it's not, again, like things that we have really dealt with as a movement before. And, you know, really importantly, people don't have the money to pay for lawyers for years and years and years. And it's really expensive to do civil litigation and civil defense. It goes on forever. You have to do so many different pieces of discovery and, you know, motions.

And all of that is so much more involved. And it really, I think part of the tactic is to bankrupt organizations. That's a big part of why these actors are bringing in these simple suits. Canadian women are looking for more. More to themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders, and the world are out of them. And that's why we're thrilled to introduce the Honest Talk podcast. I'm Jennifer Stewart. And I'm Catherine Clark.

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If you've been searching for a soft place to land while doing the work to become whole. This podcast is for you to hear more. Listen to deeply well with Debbie Brown from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I just want to intervene strategically at this moment to say that everything that Joey and Bina are talking about is true and critical and important. And we need to be so alert to the way that these federal apparatuses are being deployed against our communities. But I also want to say that one of the things we have seen over the last couple of years that I think is so important and we have to hang on to for dear life is that when we fight,

we win. And so what we're starting to see now, you know, we just saw some of my impressive and beloved colleagues at CUNY School of Law are litigating a case right now in the federal courts about Columbia University's repression of student activists. And what we're seeing is the court coming back with these rulings that say anti-Zionism is not hate speech. Columbia University acting at the behest of the executive makes them subject to the constraints of the First Amendment. it's potentially violative of the First Amendment to discipline students for engaging in speech, right? We're seeing people fight these federal cases, both criminal and civil and winning.

As Joey mentioned, we're seeing grand juries declining to issue indictments or to authorize prosecutors to issue indictments. So I do want to say, you know, we really do see the power of communities taking on that legal battle, fighting with, you know, our community movement, legal people, and meeting that challenge head on. And I think as devastating and exhausting as it is and as terrible as the consequences and the risks really are, I do want to say we do see people having a lot of courage, marshalling a lot of resources and energy, and winning reliably. Thank you. And I know, Joey, you started talking a little bit about what we've been seeing broadly across the country and how the state has been repressing specifically anti-ice activity. I know you've been based in Chicago and particularly tune into what's happening there. And it's been similar in Minneapolis where it's been a lot of 18 U.S.C. 11 cases, federal charges. And part of what is coming up is just unpreparedness for movements to meet and defend against these kinds of charges. And also similar vein to the question I just

asked why it matters for people's lives and for movements that it's federal charges coming down instead of state charges. Bina. When I transitioned from state to federal defense, my reaction was like state, it's always horrible, just being in the criminal system and fighting. It's very like David and Goliath. But I felt like I had more of a fighting chance in state court. When I got to federal, it was shocking how much worse it felt for my clients, how restricted you are. In a state, it really feels like when you're doing a trial, you have the power to kind of run the show, right? Of course, a judge can, like, shoot down many motions for experts, for, like, for, you know, doing certain defenses. But federal is so much more constrained in my experience where federal judges won't have just so much more power.

And I think I wasn't also just didn't appreciate how much more power federal judges had and how much more they were willing to wield it. But also, I think, in terms of the charges are heavier, plea bargaining and sentencing is so much harder and heavier, you're very restricted. Even though the sentencing guidelines, for instance, are no longer mandatory. That's what everyone, judges and prosecutors still mostly go by. There's so many more mandatory minimums. It's so easy to catch a federal charge, too. Things like even just gun possession, right? Because a gun might have been manufactured in Texas and then bought in California, which most people wouldn't think is a federal charge. It's a federal. offense, but it can be charged federally.

Just all of those factors, I think, just I realized how much harder it was in federal court for my clients to have a fighting chance. But, you know, that being said, I don't mean to make state sound like it's this like sort of gold, like, oh, great, we're going to do it, whatever we want in state. Not at all. But I felt like I could fight more. I had more leeway to fight in state. You know, federal, I think, is a whole other animal.

That was a great answer. And if either of you don't have anything more pressing to add, I would. would turn us back to just the question of if there's anything else we wanted to talk about trends in charging across the country of anti-ice protest. Well, I know I just don't, I think I want to echo something that Mo has talked about, and I'm not trying to leave it out, but I do think the resistance is so amazing. And I think that, you know, essentially people are being arrested for First Amendment activity, whether it's video recording ICE and CBP agents' actions, whether it's following officers,

whether it's announcing their presence with whistles. We've seen people arrested. We've seen people detain. We've seen people interrogated. Sometimes they're charged. Sometimes they're not. But I think what's striking is we've seen so many of these cases fall apart. And to be honest, but for Prairie Land, Texas, which is devastating loss, the federal

government has lost in many of these cases. They've been able to charge or the cases have been dismissed, but even the ones that have gone to trial, they have lost. And that is not something that I think we're used to seeing in federal criminal cases. Generally, when someone's charged in federal criminal court as Bina was explaining, you know, so few of the cases go to trial because so many people need to take a plea bargain. And the idea that you're going to get to go to trial and win seems very slim. That landscape seems to be changing as well. And so I think what we are seeing in this moment is the people are resisting.

They are continuing to do this important First Amendment work, and they are not being intimidated. They are not being deterred. And I think, you know, all of you and your neighbors and your friends and folks in Minnesota have proven that to us. And so I think we're going to continue to see this type of work go on. I'm not seeing this level of surges at this point ongoing post-Minnesota. I don't know if we're going to see a return to this prior to the election.

I don't know if we're going to see this if the Insurrection Act is invoked. But right now, I don't see this ongoing surge activity in terms of immigration enforcement. It's an interesting point. The thing you hear about federal criminal cases is like the federal government can be investigating somebody for years. So by the time that they bring the charges, they have such a strong case against them. It makes it impossible to win versus what, at least we've seen in Minnesota, where it felt like some of these cases were being brought like pretty quick. and kind of sloppily, which is just a little bit of a different, maybe a little bit more hopeful for people in movements, even though there still are federal judges and procedural limitations

and that make federal cases scarier and worse to go through oftentimes. Now, for a depressing thing that is happening, let's talk about Prairieland, the recent trial and guilty verdict that recently came down. I'd love to hear how you all are thinking about this case. and what it means for movements going forward? I think right now the defense just filed post-trial briefing. I've looked at some of it, and I think there are a lot of really strong arguments, you know, for setting aside the verdict. And, you know, whether or not the judge agrees with me is, of course, not a foregone conclusion.

But there are a lot of really strong legal arguments, and this really is. isn't over. There's so much post-trial and post-conviction relief, so many appeals that remain to be done, and so much support that can be offered, and so much solidarity that can be offered. I think that this case was unusual. It was a departure from what we would typically see in that so many people got pulled into this prosecution under sort of a conspiracy theory, right? A theory that all of the people at what was a really quotidian sort of noise demo in front of an iced detention facility somehow spontaneously became a conspiracy to do serious violence. I think this is a little bit like the federal government trying to take a second bite at the apple that they took a run at

after Trump's first inauguration when they tried to prosecute like almost 300 people for conspiracy on the basis that they were all dressed in black block. And in this environment, politically, and in that jurisdiction in Texas, it seems like that theory had legs in a way that it didn't in D.C. So one of the things that happened in the J20 case was that the prosecution withheld a bunch of exculpatory evidence. And based on some FOIA disclosures that a journalist obtained, it looks like actually a very similar thing may have happened here with Prairie Land, where the prosecution may have

withheld evidence that would be favorable to the defense. And that's called Brady material based on a Supreme Court case about having to turn over information and evidence that would tend to undermine the prosecution or that would be favorable to someone facing criminal charges. All of that kind of information, if it's in the custody or control of law enforcement, has to be disclosed to the defendants and to defense counsel. and it appears that there is some material that would fit that bill that was not turned over to the prairie land defendants or their attorneys. And so, you know, that as well as an extremely important argument against, you know, letting this conviction stand. And the trial itself, there were just a lot of irregularities.

Not only was this an unusual prosecution, but it was characterized by irregularities, very early on, the judge declared a mistrial on the basis of a t-shirt that one of the defense attorneys was wearing, right? There seemed to be a lot of conflict among the jurors. There were all kinds of inconsistent statements among the witnesses for the prosecution, right? So there's all kinds of things that happened during this trial that do give me a certain amount of hope that Prairieland is the exception and not the rule. You know, I think the government is boundary testing, but I'm not convinced that they're going to find that this is an effective approach to prosecuting protest. Although, of course, I want to be very clear it's been devastating for this community.

I hear that there's some uncertainty about the long-term impacts of this. And with that in mind, is there anything any of you just want to add? what you think movements should be paying attention to here going forward. Also, its connection to the expansion of the fundamentally racist war on terror legal regime and its turn towards activist communities in new ways. I can jump in and start. I'm really glad you brought up the war on terror as part of the history of this. I think I mentioned previously a lot of these tactics that we see, like we've all said, are not new, and much of it has been tested on communities of color, the way that war weapons are tested on the battlefield and brought to our domestic police forces here.

Same thing with tactics, right? And so the war and terror, like, primarily against the Muslim community and the Muslim world, a lot of non-Arab countries, like Afghanistan and Pakistan, you know, of course, is a racist endeavor, but it does sort of like give us a picture of the larger sort of like colonial project of what, you know, what we're facing. But I think there's also just a lot than that we can take from history and take to our movements and learn from. I think while it's devastating, and I agree with Mo, I think the Prairie Line conviction, there's a lot of bases for appeal, including being prohibited from putting on a self-defense argument or defense of others argument. I think we can learn a lot from the way that our movements were targeted in this way,

right? We're like, you know, a lot of it was from text messages and signal. And I think it's just like, it's also a really important thing to note while signal is a very important app to communicate. It's not bulletproof, right? And it's only as secure as you make it. And it is still something that's in writing. And so I think I always try to remind folks, like, if you can open your phone right now and you can see your signal messages, someone else can too. Right. So I think a lot of people are under the impression that is completely bulletproof. And I think it's also calls the question of, like, how we, you know, how we organize and also like does everything we do need to go in text or writing? You know, is there more value to, like, actually talking with people? Because a lot of things

that were said casually, I think, in writing, look much worse and much more serious than if you would just have a conversation talking ideas through, which, again, as an elder, I did in the 90s, and we didn't have cell phones. I want to kind of piggyback on something you started to say, which is, you said these tactics, these strategies have been tested on communities of color. And I think the significance of that statement, like, we can't overestimate how important it is to understand that. And, you know, you can watch it happening in real time. I mean, obviously, we've seen this kind of state repression, right, since the days of, like, abolitionists, right? But we saw it really coming very salient during the Nixon administration and thereafter.

and, you know, the Black Panther Party and Black Liberation Army were subjected to this. Black communities were then subjected to this and Puerto Rican independence communities were subjected to this. And you can see it all the way through the 80s, even with like the so-called gang legislation, right, targeting a, quote, gang activity. When you say these communities have been subjected to this, what do you mean? What's the this? Sorry, have been subjected to have been targeted and surveilled and criminalized by the state for what we would understand to be First Amendment protected identities, beliefs, associations, and activities. Right. And so people have been

targeted for surveillance and criminalization on the basis of their political beliefs, on the basis of their associations and activities in a way that we now see being recuperated against more explicitly political, like, protest movements. And we saw this during the No Dapel movement at Standing Rock. We saw the revival of a federal charge called Civil Disorder. I think the last time it had been used had been during the standoff at Wounded Neck. in 1974, right? It was like a federal charge that seems like it was only used against people struggling for

indigenous sovereignty. And then we saw it being used again during the Floyd uprisings in 2020. And that was the first time we saw it really being used against people who were not explicitly involved in struggles for indigenous sovereignty. To give like an example, you know, in terms of like what strategies are tested on the Muslim community or communities of color, the case that a lot of us within the movement at least are still haunted by is against the Holy Land Foundation and the Holy Land Five, right? And it's shocking now to realize how many people outside of our circles don't actually really know about that case or even like what material support is. I think only when it became now much bigger and being weaponized in more creative ways are people sort of realizing, but, you know, back in the day when the Holy Land Foundation founders were targeted and then convicted and their convictions were upheld for just raising money for families in Gaza, it was so devastating and crushing to communities into organizing. But it really didn't get the,

I think, the broad attention that it should have, right, or this other targeting of like using informants in the Muslim community, just going back through history. And I think we can learn from them now. But I think, you know, if we had had more attention on those cases and what, you know, communities of color were going through, I think there's a lot we can learn from or could have organized stronger against having now seen, you know, what, what is doing to communities of color. I think if there's a lesson for us to learn from this is that, you know, post-9-11, there was this massive persecution of Muslim communities. And we really saw this apparatus of the material support for terrorism being used against individuals. And as you say, being a

often in isolation without support. And part of that's because when you get charged with material support of terrorism, you know, not only are you facing massive criminal, like, sentencing, but, you know, your organization is being taken down. You're getting debanked. You cannot, you know, be able to hold financial funds. And what happens is people don't want to get ensnared in that criminal prosecution that often people don't come out and make those solidarity statements. You become a potentially radioactive. And I think, you know, what I'm hopeful is that we can find new ways to resist this material support for terrorism apparatus, which is being wielded in ways that I think are unjust and unfair and illegal and wrong. And I hope there's ways that we can think about how

we're going to counter that, whether it's in the Prairieland, Texas case or in other cases as well. I think we need to get back to the roots of that law. And we need to think about really who's it serving who is it protecting and who is it destroying so that we can really rectify the harms that have come from it. Canadian women are looking for more. More to themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders, and the world are out of them. And that's why we're thrilled to introduce the Honest Talk podcast. I'm Jennifer Stewart.

And I'm Catherine Clark. And in this podcast, we interview Canada's most inspiring women. Entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, politicians, and newsmakers, all at different stages of their journey. So if you're looking to connect, then we hope you'll join us. Listen to the Honest Talk podcast on IHartRadio or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers, and guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, name?

Huge news. We created our own podcast called Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to a... We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there. But this one's extra special.

So how do we actually come up with a name Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, where people could call in and say, hey, Jonas.

And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL, late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel.

Help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The story I've told myself about love or relationships can then shape my behavior, and that can lead me to sabotage the possibility of connection. This Mental Health Awareness Month, tune into the podcast deeply well with Debbie Brown

and explore the journey of healing, self-discovery, and returning to yourself. We explore higher consciousness, emotional well-being, and the practices that help you find clarity, peace, and self-mastery in a world that can feel overwhelming. The world is becoming lonelier. We're not becoming more social and connected. We're becoming more individualized, but we actually meet people in connection. If you've been searching for a soft place to land while doing the work to become whole. This podcast is for you to hear more. Listen to deeply well with Debbie Brown from the Black

Effect Podcast Network on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Material support for terrorism charges are not the only uncommon charges we're seeing being brought against anti-ice protesters. Here in Minneapolis, we've also seen the use of the FACE Act and federal threat and cyber-stalking charges. Just to note, the use of the FACE Act is specifically against Black Lives Matter protesters here who staged a protest in a church. And I don't think expected to have this random act that nobody knew existed come out and now they're facing super serious charges. I'd love just for listeners to understand a little bit what these charges are. If there's other unusual charges you've seen around the country, what do people actually

need to understand about them, people who are going out to protest, how much is it important to know about these different things that can pop up? So the FACE Act is a piece of legislation that initially was being pushed for by reproductive justice groups, and it was supposed to criminalize people interfering with folks who are attempting to access reproductive health care. because at the time that it was being lobbied for, there was a pretty active pro-life, you know, anti-choice movement that was physically making it difficult for people who were seeking reproductive health care to gain access to clinics.

And at the time, people who work in criminal defense, who work with criminalized populations were like, hey, this legislation is going to be mobilized against other kinds of protesters, and it's probably going to be primarily dangerous to people who are perceived as antagonistic to state interests. And what do you know? That is what has happened? because one of the things, one of the concessions that was made in order to get that piece of legislation passed was that in addition to criminalizing obstructing access to reproductive health clinics, it also criminalized obstructing access to so-called places of worship for specifically people who are attempting to access those places in order to engage in First Amendment protection. religious expression. So now one of the things we're seeing is people using their churches or their synagogues to do things like have political meetings that are not particularly religious meetings, or to do things like sell real estate in Palestine to which they do not have title and cannot

lawfully sell. And then when people show up to protest those activities, the federal government tries to charge them with violations of the FACE Act. In like the simplest way, what do people need to know? Like there's one outcome here that everyone's like, oh my God, I didn't know that protesting in a church could get me federal charges for like handing out some flyers and using a megaphone. What else don't I know about other risks and random acts that can come up? How do you talk to people about that who are thinking about taking action? Yeah, I think that that's, again, the changing landscape here in seeing the exponential rise of federal charges. I think that when organizers are thinking about the actions they're pursuing,

I think they need to talk to attorneys and legal workers and others who have both an understanding of what their local laws and state laws are, but what the federal laws are as well. And again, And I think that's just a different changing of the landscape. I do want to say, you know, there's a lot of important organizing that. It has happened in churches and synagogues and temples. And I don't want to discount that. But I do also want to say, I think, again, we're seeing a misuse of this law, particularly the FACE Act.

And it's very, very scary. But, you know, I think that there are some really incredible lawyers and organizers in Minnesota, who I think are fierce and who are going to fight this to the end. And I have hoped that they will come out unscathed. Yeah. And I do want to clarify, it isn't just protesting at a church. They have to be able to allege that people were by force or threat of force or by physical obstruction, intentionally injuring, intimidating, and are fear with people who are

trying to get health care or people who are trying to worship. So it isn't simply having a protest at a place of worship that remains First Amendment protected behavior. I think in addition with the FACE Act, it has a civil component. So again, like material support, it also has a civil component and many people are getting civilly sued. And so a lot of these Zionist groups have also brought suits based on the FACE Act for people protesting the illegal sale of Palestinian land inside a synagogue.

And that's a breach of international law and so many other crimes. And just also to think of, it's just a disgusting use of this law. And you think of sort of the historical targeting of black churches. And like still to this day, like it's just such a slap in the face. But regardless. But I think also olive to your question about, yeah, like a lot of this can catch people off car and like, I didn't, what? You know, I didn't know.

And even, you know, even if they know they really can't prove that you block, you know, access that they might still try, either sue you or prosecute you. I think that the thing is like, none of us are ever going to know all the laws that are on the books and the way that they might creatively try to use them. So, you know, I don't want people to get paralyzed into not doing anything because it's, it is, you know, scary. There's just like you don't know, you know, what, what laws are out there that can be used, you know, in some way now, you know, new way against you. But I think what Joey and Mo both have said is right about connecting to lawyers and legal workers, just being tight on our organizing, knowing what our rights are and knowing what to do when you

encounter law enforcement, which is nothing and say nothing, you know, like all of that, I think is like, hopefully like universally at least like minimizes the harm that can happen to you. It's not bulletproof, right? As we know, it's not meant to be. But I think like, you know, I don't want folks to like be like, I now I don't know X. Like this other random thing, you know, could be brought against me. And that may happen and continue to happen, but that's what we all do, right? Like sort of like with this message of hope is that what we do is we fight. And like we have fought like state repression. Like our answers are sort of thought state repression. We're not going to stop. They're going to keep adapting and so are we. This resistance is not going to stop, even if we have to figure out a new way to resist based on what comes next. To ask you all as a final question with your repression forecasting hats on anything you want to add about how movements can prepare to meet this repression that is our. happening and that which is to come. I can't see the future. As I tell my clients every day,

I can't see the future. I am but a lawyer, not a wizard. What I can tell you is we know a lot about what the state has done in the past, and we have a lot of good models to look to. We have a rich ancestry of resistance and of movement lawyering and of movement lawyers who know how to work in community with people who are doing the heavy lifting. We have made it this far. As Beena said, we're just going to continue to fight. And I do hold out a lot of hope. Not because I have any faith in the law itself or believe that justice.

is on the table in our courts, but because we are actually really good at solidarity. And because we have over a century of evidence that solidarity is not just good for our communities, it's legally effective. That's it. Don't talk to cops. I might go with the cheesy answer route that I think what communities and movements can do to prepare is a lot of this, right? is like coming together and strategizing, especially amongst the lawyers. So uplifting what Moe said

is like showing solidarity with communities and lawyers showing up. But I think also, and like Joey and Mo really modeled this for me as well as lawyers showing up with each other and like working together because it is a lonely fight a lot of times, being a lawyer when you're not in a circle of solidarity or folks of radical politics or who like also believe in including each other in fighting, you know, and doing this work. And that is. always going to be a losing fight, right? If you're doing it by yourself, you're not doing it with each other and with the communities and with other radical lawyers, that's not what we do, right? That's also like not the point of this work. It's for like one sole lawyer to fight it and

win. It's about like us doing it collectively. And that's the way that we win. And, you know, just uplifting like you three, like just even having this conversation and Joey and Mo for all the work that you do and the work that you do inclusively, you know, that like gives me hope. because I know I've had like many, every day. You know, like, I just sit and I feel like alone. I'm like, oh, my God. Like, I have to first end with the message of hope. I have to find some way to keep going.

It's really hard. And sometimes I'm just like, I don't know. And then we have these conversations. And like, all right. Yeah. Like we have those moments. We get, you know, like, we feel defeated. But like, we have each other, you know?

And like our movements didn't come this far, you know, our ancestors didn't come this far for us to give up now. Yeah. I think I would just echo what. both Bina and Mo have said, I mean, obviously black, indigenous and other communities of color have faced fascism and authoritarianism before and have resisted and survived. This is not the first time in this country. We've seen this, and it's likely not going to be the last. But I think, again, I, you know, I would say that, you know, as Mariam Kama says, you know, hope is a discipline.

and we have to keep pouring into hope and we have to keep resisting. So I do have a lot of hope, and I feel like, again, like, I want to look at what the organizers have done and how far we've come even in terms of this latest administration. You know, I would say last year after the onset of this administration, I don't think we were seeing a lot of resistance, not a lot of public resistance. And instead, we were seeing law firms cave and deciding to create agreements with the administration. We are seeing educational institutions cave and come up with a lot of agreements. But what we did see is we saw the people resisting.

And that happened in L.A. and that happened in Chicago. And that certainly happened in Minneapolis and St. Paul and Minnesota. So I take heart. And I think what we need to continue to think about doing is how people are going to do the mutual aid work and the care work. I think we need to continue to do the know your rights and know your risks work. That's essential. I think a big thing we need to continue to think about is the Insurrection Act and getting information out about the Insurrection Act, which may be invoked prior to this election.

You know, I think that the ongoing work that people have been doing, again, it's about the people and the power of the people that have gotten us this far. But even if we look at what happened, you know, this past week in 8 million people coming out to protest and resist, those numbers didn't exist over a year ago. And so I feel like the resistance is happening. People are coming together. And despite institutional failures, I think the movement has grown significantly. And I think we have to even look at the last year and a half to see how far we've come. And so I've hoped that we'll go even further. And I hope that we're not returning to the status quo. And in fact, we are actually dreaming the world we want to live in and that we are

going to fight for the world we want to live in. And that this is an opportunity for us to let things go and for us to create anew. Well, thank you all for those hopeful forecasting advice answers. You don't always get that twist, which is really lovely. And I feel like it's been something that's on my mind a lot. Here in Minnesota, that's sometimes when things are the worst and you're the closest to violence and terror, it's also when you see how powerful people are and how powerful resistance can be. I mean, these are long fights and these are long halls. Yeah. I think that's kind of the lesson is, you know, not to get all peer K a vote, but you are not obligated to finish the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

Like these are long fights. Yeah. They are fights that we don't win alone. It's not possible or desirable to win these fights alone, right? They're generational. I mean, they last multiple generations. So, you know, this like the ever-receding horizon of real democracy, right? There's no forecast that could even be adequate because it's going to go on for so long.

But I think the advice is always the same, right? Just don't talk to cops. Yeah. What she said is generational and you're not free to just abandon the work, Mo, is like, I want to like write that on a wall somewhere because I think things, people jump in, right? It's like, okay, this is hot, let's do it. But it's like once it's not a hot new thing, you know, people kind of move on to the next day. It's like, no, that's when we need folks to stick in it and you can't. And I think that's just a really important, like, lesson.

Send me your mailing address. I'm going to send you a, I'm going to send you a, I'm going to send you. I'm going to send you a poster. Or can you crochet it? I know you can crochet. You can do it with flowers and everything. Yeah. Thank you all so much.

You guys are awesome. I love you guys. It's been so great. I feel like at a therapy session, I feel so much better about what we're doing and where we are and like I have hope. Thank you for listening to Outlaw on It Could Happen here. If you like the episode,

check out the show Outlaw, wherever you get your podcasts. And rate, review. and follow OutlawPod on Instagram and Blue Sky for anti-repression updates, news, and stories that you might want to know. From the north, from the south, from everywhere. It Could Happen here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Coolzone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions.

Thanks for listening. Hey guys, it's us The Jonas Brothers, I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick, and guess what? We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it.

We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it, but, you know. Tired and sick. Tired and sick. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen.

We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your Sometimes a suspect is found guilty before a verdict is ever read in court. On the Wicked Words podcast, I talk with the writers who dig deep into the cases that changed history, including Marsha Clark, who went from prosecuting one of the most famous murder cases to writing crime fiction. It doesn't matter that you didn't take part in the murder. If you were at the scene at all, you're guilty of murder. Every week, the real story is revealed.

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