It Could Happen Here - Part One: Roundtable on the Future of Terrorism

Episode Date: September 15, 2021

Garrison sits down with a handful of researchers that study far right extremism to discuss how climate change will impact fascist terrorism. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadowbride. Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of fright. An anthology podcast of modern-day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into tech's elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech

brought to you by an industry veteran with nothing to lose. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts from. On Thanksgiving Day 1999, five-year-old Cuban boy Elian Gonzalez was found off the coast of Florida. And the question was, should the boy go back to his father in Cuba? Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or stay with his relatives in Miami? Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jacqueline Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit.

The podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. Black Lit is for the page turners, for those who listen to audio books while running errands or at the end of a busy day. From thought provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Listen to Black Lit on the Black Effect podcast network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. AT&T, connecting changes everything. Greetings and welcome to It Could Happen Here. I'm Garrison Davis. I am a researcher and writer on the podcast team. am a researcher and writer on the podcast team. Today, we have a roundtable discussion with a group of researchers who look into extremism and political violence, usually stemming from far-right propagandists and people in that kind of whole sphere. So we

have a discussion relating to climate change and all these other things that I was able to record with these fine people. It's split up into two sections. So part one is coming out today. Part two is coming out tomorrow. Highly recommend you listen to both. Maybe even back to back at some point because it does really give a nice rounded out view of what we were talking about. So, without further ado, here is my discussion with, I don't know, well, not a dozen, but a large amount of terrorism researchers,

as we are all in the woods, as you will soon find out. Welcome to It Could Happen Here, the daily show. I am Garrison Davis, and I am recording in an undisclosed location in the woods. Me and a few internet colleagues are all hiding from the world for a week to reset our poisoned brains. But I'm going to slightly re-poison us here for about an hour to have a discussion about climate change and terrorism. Because we have a group of people here who are all, who all research the bad thing online a lot. So I'm going to try to use, to take advantage of having this unique group of people all in one location to have this nice discussion for you guys.

But yeah, specifically we want to talk about how we of us as a quote-unquote expert in certain fields see climate change impacting extremism and terrorism in the next few decades. And yes, we are recording in the forest, so if you hear sounds like we're in the forest, that's because we are. You guys already know me, or you probably do, but we're going to go around in the forest, so if you hear sounds like we're in the forest, that's because we are. You guys already know me, or you probably do, but I'm gonna

go around in a circle, probably starting on my left, introducing the people, and yeah, just give a brief bio, however detailed you want to get into. Okay. My name's Matt Taylor. I'm a journalist and researcher focusing on cults,

conspiracy theories, and extremism, and today is my birthday. Happy birthday, Matt, in the past. My name's Theo. I am a journalist and researcher as well. I mostly focus on the American militia movement and paramilitary groups. I'm Toothpick. and paramilitary groups.

I'm Toothpick. I'm with Theo, Matt, Emmy, and Big Newhouse, who isn't here on Terrorism Bat. That's a podcast, by the way. Self-plug. My research and reporting focuses mainly on conspiracy theories and where that overlaps with political extremism and the focus on connections between the US

and Europe, especially Germany. I'm Peter Smith. I'm a journalist with the Canadian Anti-Hate Network and the host of the Unusual Show podcast. I'm Lily and I focus on extremism

and counterterrorism and data analysis. And I'm Emmy. I do digital propaganda and rhetoric. That is our little crew. Yeah, let's see. The first thing we kind of want to talk about, I'm guessing, is how we see, like, small, because, like, the podcast is more about, like, smaller local collapses. Like, we don't, there's not going to be one big collapse. We're going to see small things start to fall apart.

And how we see, when small things fall apart, what do we see filling in those gaps? Specifically, I think this will tie into the militia movement a lot in a lot of ways. So, yeah, you guys can start sprouting off your knowledge. Yeah, so one of the things that I've been thinking of and following, and I don't know if this has made as much of an impact in U.S. media, but in the last month, parts of Germany and the Netherlands experienced really bad flooding that literally wiped out some villages and some towns. And one of the things that we've seen in Germany is far-right groups.

There isn't really a militia movement because of the laws there, but far-right groups rushing in and collecting aid and going for photo ops in those catastrophe areas. And what that does make me think of, and maybe Theo can talk more about this, is we've seen similar stuff in the U.S.

with the militia movement marking themselves as emergency preparedness or marking themselves in that way and positioning themselves where, when the government is unable to respond, that these groups are able to come in and also using that for their messaging and for their rhetoric. Yeah, so that is something that you see in the U.S.

The biggest example, Garrison and I talked about this earlier, but during the wildfires in oregon last year you saw checkpoints being established by militia groups whether are already formed militia groups or kind of impromptu armed bands uh and you also see that as like a big marketing thing i know a lot of the virginia-based militias that i follow went out to Tennessee one or two years ago when the tornadoes happened. Yeah, I was going to mention that. They did a bunch of

aid and photo ops. Yeah, so just not to dox myself, but I'm from Nashville and beginning of 2020 in March right before coronavirus. Someone just dropped a toy gun. Great job guys. Yeah. So in the beginning of March of last year, right before COVID hit Nashville, we had a

huge tornado go through Nashville itself and wipe out, um, like two different neighborhoods and then a rural town right outside of Nashville.ville uh but you saw a lot of like so the community comes together and this really nice display of mutual aid to do all the cleanup basically before any official crews could get there but with that you also saw like these far right groups coming in for photo ops and it just it normalizes their presence in heavily impacted areas and it was not not ideal yeah a lot of the american militia movement especially the modern kind of post-2008 three percenter strain of it is predicated on this idea of a complete breakdown of order or a loss of civil order however you conceive of that

and um these like climate disasters that are going to hit areas are going to kind of provide a self-fulfilling prophecy for these people to step in and say, oh no, you need some sort of armed force. You need some sort of group of people to keep order and to keep law in whatever way they conceive of that.

I do think it's interesting you guys talking about the photo op thing that they do, because when the wildfires happened in Oregon, all of the actual like relief work was done by anti-fascists. Like people in Portland, we set up, you know, these massive camps to help, you know, all these like much more conservative people who had to evacuate their homes. And they were all getting fed and all their clothes and stuff were coming from anti-fascists. And all the right did was do the armed checkpoints thing. But it's interesting that in the South, where there's less anti-fascists, compared to Portland, right,

how some of those groups actually do do some of the relief effort. And that's definitely not the case up here in the West Coast. Oh, yeah. I mean, last year, I remember a few county-level militias that I follow in Virginia were, like, seriously doing relief work. Like, they were gathering food. They were taking it out to places affected by flooding in North Carolina, by tornadoes in Tennessee. It's not, I wouldn't go so far as to call it mutual aid,

because it lacks the kind of ideological framework for that, but they are providing some sort of infrastructure. I think mutual aid for their guys. Yeah, with less of the theory side of mutual aid. And I'm sure there's someone else who can speak more on this, but from my perspective growing up in a super weird church, I see this combining with local churches a lot as well. I'm not sure there's anyone else here

who could say something more intelligently than me about how, like, religion will combine with these, like, kind of militia efforts. Well, a lot of, like, eco-extremists, like, on the far right, on the very fringe far right, can start to, like, be very esoteric about their, you know their belief in climate change. And they start to sort of frame it as a reason for the collapse,

that we need collapse, or attacking infrastructure, for the purpose of somehow saving the planet, even though it's really not going to get them anywhere. We have to do a lot of our own work on the planet. We can't just destroy everything and see if it works out. Yeah, we can definitely bring up accelerationists and accelerationism as an overarching thing that is not just... not to be like horseshoe theory about it, but

the accelerationism pops up in a whole lot of areas, including areas at the left where it becomes very unuseful. And it can lead to, like, a lot of wasted time and some destructive tendencies. I mean, I think that point kind of also provides an interesting through-line between more

mainstream militias and, like, the really esoteric brands of eco-fascism or ecologically based extremism is that they're both very influenced by colonial schools of thought. Eco-fascism and all that

is kind of predicated on this idea of terra nullus. There is this perfect, empty, wild land that we can have. Manifest destiny. Exactly. And, like, so much of the ideas of order and, like, peacekeeping that you find within more mainstream militia movements

come from this exact same type of thinking, where it's like a colonial order that you need to keep. Yeah, I know there's a lot of people on the left who are in, like, the kind of, Yeah, I know there's a lot of people on the left who are in the kind of green, eco-socialist or green anarchist kind of strains who get very frustrated when people talk about eco-fascism, which I can understand, because no one really means the same thing

when they talk about it. Sometimes they just mean any quote-unquote terrorism that has an environmental purpose. Some people, when they think of eco-fascism, they think of overpopulation. There's a lot of different things they mean by it, but I know we've all had talks about what we personally view as eco-fascism.

Because it's not just eco-extremism. Eco-extremism does not equal fascism. There's a whole bunch of eco-extremists who are very anti-fascist. And there is some who kind of bridge the gap, like ITS has some more fascist tendencies, but I would not accurately

call them fascist, based on the type of stuff they do, the type of writing they do. They do not check all of the boxes. But then we do have people who I would accurately describe as eco-fascist, who have done mass shootings, describe as eco-fascist who have done who've done you know mass shootings who have a lot of who have eco-fascist stuff

either in the writing that they like or their own manifestos they bring up enough points it's like yeah you kind of fall into this broad category welcome I'm Danny Thrill won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Welcome. I'm Danny Trejo. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America.

From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jacqueline Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. I'm Jack Peace Thomas, and I'm inviting you to join me and a vibrant community of literary enthusiasts dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories. Black Lit is for the page turners, for those who listen to audiobooks while commuting or running errands, for those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge between the chapters.

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From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough, so join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. and I'm bringing you Gracias, Come Again, the podcast where we dive deep into the world of Latin culture,

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Does someone here want to give their personal definition of eco-fascism? This is not necessarily exactly what we use for the pod, but I'm interested to hear, there's a lot of people with various backgrounds, everyone has their own specialized knowledge. When people say that, what do you put into that category? People believe in this organic law and natural order, and they believe that there is a natural hierarchy ingrained in everything. and they believe that, like, there is a natural hierarchy ingrained in everything.

And they think that, generally, like, if we return to, like, some kind of primitive society or, like, you know, they'll assume that, like, everything has its own structure and that there's going to be people who rise to the top people who just you know uh don't belong in that kind of society it's going to be really damaging for like the elderly for disabled people and they just sort of see it as like survival of the fittest um i think that's like a much more eco-fascist point of view rather than a more green anarchist point of view where things would sort of even out rather than become a hierarchical...

Yeah, I think hierarchy is an important part of that and how we... There is a lot of green anarchists who are focusing on making their own medication for people with diabetes and stuff, and that's kind of stuff that is really interesting to look at and stuff that we should absolutely pursue because we'll become less reliant on supply chains. And we don't really see eco-fascists

doing that. We do not see them focusing on making medication for people. Oh no! Maybe I can kind of set some people up to say more stuff if I say this real quickly. But one of the things that I always or that is a red flag for me is

just bringing in these very traditional discussions of gender roles stuff if I say this real quickly, but one of the things that I always or that is a red flag for me is just, you know, bringing in these very traditional discussions of gender roles and relating that to the environment of our rhetoric people. Can you give an example? I mean, we don't need to say names of specific, like, writers

or people, but there's definitely... A way in which to, like, describe the gender roles? Sure, yeah. Stop playing with the toy gun, oh my god. Um, just, just, like, establishing... And it is kind of, it can be kind of, like, an older left thing, too,

but establishing, you know, ecological discussions within the framework of traditional gender roles, um, and kind of, like, what is expected of people based on their sex. Yeah, this is the dark side of cottagecore. Yes.

That's one way to put it. Emmy, you want to get in here? Oh boy, yeah. Emmy likes cottagecore. Oh, I love cottagecore. I like parts of cottagecore, just not when it intersects with a certain strain of politics. Oh, right. Like, queer cottagecore is extremely cute. Sure.

Until. Until you're not queer. Sometimes they still are. Now, here's the thing. When we're dealing with, like, traditional gender role stuff, it's a really, like, slippery slope into more aggressive strains of thought.

Yeah. So when we're talking about the idea of the class... Stop playing with the toy gun. You are going to get the ATF here, and I don't want it. It's my birthday. I don't want that. We will turn this podcast around.

Turn it a podcast? It's Matt's birthday, you ass. Take apologizing. Yeah, okay. Have fun editing. Continue editing. Yeah, rip to the editor.

I wouldn't know what that's like. All this stays in. Oh, good. So, when they're talking about the collapse and they want, you know,

they think the rod of modernity will be gone, society will be ended, they can rebuild from the ground up smaller communities, and they can build the society they want,

which is largely ethno-nationalist. It's not great. The idea that there will be this super-traditional family structure, you're going to have this combined strong warrior, also homesteading man, and your cool trad wife, who never ages above 30 in this society.

Doesn't age above 25. I'm being generous here, assuming that at least some of these people have a little bit of pre-planning, but they don't. They don't. And

they step on each other a lot, right? Because they have this whole plan for this society free of industry, and they can't stop posting about it on the internet. Which is pretty funny. Which is really funny, right? They love to post. They're not good at it. Yeah, they're way too addicted to posting to actually commit to

the true off-the-grid trad life. At least 10K was off the grid. We don't gotta hand it to them. We don't gotta hand it to them. You do. You under no circumstances gotta hand it to them. Pod is divided on how much we gotta hand it to 10K.

The official stance of terrorism is that terrorism is bad. Why don't we just bring them on? It is kind of a concern when they do end up when they stop posting. It's a concern when they're posting, but it's kind of more concerning when you see the anti-root groups. You would rather them just keep posting sometimes.

It's the same as looking at a kid that wants to be a firefighter or something. They're just talking. They're not gonna do it. But you see some of them doing it. And when they're doing the thing... The white-style influencer version of fascism. Yeah. Do you think that it's going to affect, kind of like,

laws about living off-grid and laws about, like... Yes. For normal people who just want to get the fuck out. I actually just read something about this. There's some guy who's been living off-grid in Pennsylvania for like 30 years, and I don't remember the details of this, and we don't have internet out here.

The old guy? Yeah, it was an old guy. Burned his house down? Yeah, he's in jail now. He's probably going to be in jail for the rest of his life, and I think part of whether it comes from the left or the right, as people kind of start to try to build resiliency within communities for disasters that are coming, and start to seek ways of living that do not rely on supply chains and do not rely on the state, the state will strike back against that as a consolidation of power. Because the more that people move away from it, whether on the left or right, the less power the state has.

Utilizing counterterrorism is an excuse to do so. Because they're giving reasons. And it's not going to get enforced equally. I'm sure the government's going to focus on certain people doing this and be slightly more okay with other people doing it.

So, I would like to talk about Canada a little bit. Because, specifically, climate change affecting Canada is going to be slightly different in most of it compared to the States. Because I've been having my waist deep in climate science books for most of 2021. And Canada's going to probably see economic boosts.

And the States are probably states probably just get actually stronger because of how... Same thing with Russia. Both Canada and Russia are going to get more economically powerful under climate change because of how much more crops are going to get moved up. Give me your thoughts on Canada, because Canada's my backup plan. As soon as stuff gets too spicy

in the states, I'm taking my Canadian passport and hiding in the woods. What's your thoughts on that? too spicy in the States, I'm taking my Canadian passport and hiding in the woods. How, how, what's your thoughts on that? It's interesting to hear you guys talk about American militia culture, because we definitely, our rhetoric and propaganda that we see in Canada, it gets

borrowed a lot, the talking points from the States, like the concepts. But what we don't have are these strong, organized militia groups. We had three percenters for a while, and who still exist, but they were big about being off-grid. They were the ones who weren't posting for a long time. And it seems like as much as all these people are still around, they've largely deflated down. Because Canada's made some efforts to call them terrorists, right?

Right. Very recently, we designated them as a terrorist organization. Which doesn't carry a criminal charge, but if you do something involved with them, you send them money, like there are consequences of that, legal enhancements. Okay. But

our kind of militia culture focuses on the illegitimacy of the state that Canada has founded. It's very kind of sobsit type rhetoric, but that Canada's establishment, its rules, and especially with all the public health measures, it's this growing kind of tide of thought in both the prairies and largely out west. Welcome, I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora, An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters

to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors Supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows. As part of my Cultura podcast network. Available on the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jack Peace Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series,

Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. I'm Jack Peace Thomas, and I'm inviting you to join me and a vibrant community of literary enthusiasts dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories. Black Lit is for the page turners, for those who listen to audiobooks while commuting or running errands, for those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge between the chapters. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Together, we'll dissect classics and contemporary works while uncovering the stories of the brilliant writers behind them.

Black Lit is here to amplify the voices of Black writers and to bring their words to life. Listen to Black Lit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hola, mi gente. It's Honey German, and I'm bringing you Gracias, Come Again, the podcast where we dive deep into the world of Latin culture, musica, peliculas, and entertainment

with some of the biggest names in the game. If you love hearing real conversations with your favorite Latin celebrities, artists, and culture shifters, this is the podcast for you. We're talking real conversations with our Latin stars, from actors and artists to musicians and creators, sharing their stories, struggles, and successes. You know it's going to be filled with chisme laughs and all the vibes that you love. Each week we'll explore everything from music and pop culture to deeper topics like identity,

community, and breaking down barriers in all sorts of industries. Don't miss out on the fun, el té caliente, and life stories. Join me for Gracias Come Again, a podcast by Honey German, where we get into todo lo actual y viral. Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone

from Nobel-winning economists to leading journalists in the field. And I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge

and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God, things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. I grew up in Saskatchewan. Most of my family is in Alberta. I know, when I look at,

because I keep a soft eye on some Canadian hate groups just because I'm Canadian. Most of them pop up around Alberta. Where do you see this stuff kind of happening? Do you see any of this on the East Coast? If so, is it smaller, or is this mostly on a West Coast Canada thing? Well, that conspiratorial thought we've seen across

the country. On the East Coast, just recently, we had people setting up their own version of checkpoints as a protest against the public health measures. The whole eastern part of Canada is in its own bubble right now. But yeah, you had this conspiracy-based movement forming these actual checkpoints.

And then the main part of it, though, is probably going to be out west. Okay. That is where these ideas are the most popular. That makes sense. Where mainstream politicians are moving towards, you know, amplifying these types of talking points. Do you see that like, is that a mostly Alberta thing? It's a mostly like prairies, Alberta, the farmland.

The interesting part is that when you talk about groups, it's like in Canada, groups are an urban phenomenon for the most part. Most of our organization takes phenomenon for the most part. Okay. Most of our organization takes place around the city centers. That is very different from the states. In the states, it's usually the opposite. In some cases, there's always exceptions of too many

people live, but generally we see it as more of a rural thing where the groups are organized. Whereas cities are more liberal and that's where the anti-fascist groups are based um but it's kind of these like these little ideological pockets that exist all over and certainly that sentiment is probably shared but the need to mobilize seems to mostly focus on the urban centers and then we'd never have our groups providing any kind of aid yeah that's just or even checkpoints. That's beyond these very recent protest movements. There has been more forest fires around B.C.,

around western Alberta. How do you see the government's response to these types of things right now? Canada's in a particular situation with the Liberals having minority control the Canadian parliamentary system is probably confusing to a lot of Americans if they don't understand it already but yeah what do you see on that front

both Trudeau and Biden talk the talk around pipelines and stuff but then do the complete opposite how do you see this kind of stuff working right now on the climate side of things? Well, yeah, our reaction to the firefighters, or sorry, our reaction to the wildfires, I mean, the government response has always looked down on,

like it's always looked at poorly, but none of these people are taking this as an opportunity to kind of change minds, kind of do PR. There's much less reaction to it. Like the West also, there's this incredible feeling of alienation because of the way that our government is set up. They have substantially

less voting power. Yeah, the same way the states, there's southern states or states in the Midwest who feel like they don't really have any power politically. Same thing for almost the entire west coast of Canada, everything from Manitoba

to Alberta and parts of BC. Everyone is very frustrated at the federales and how they don't have control for what's happening. People on the east coast are controlling what our pipelines or what our

mines are doing, and that does not fare to our workers. Because, yeah, it does suck when, you know, a mine closes, and then everyone in a small town is out of business. Like, the part where I grew up in Canada, all my family around them, you know, used to be bustling small towns that are basically all now ghost towns.

Because stuff closed, people had to move to either, like, Calgary, Edmonton, Regina, don't laugh. So, you know, all these specific things, you know. We see pockets of this. We see pockets... We see pockets of this in, like, the Midwest

and the States, definitely. I don't know if it also is, like, manifest destination, because, like, a lot of it started with people kind of moving outward to try and gain more land and make their borders um larger and like live further out to like try and uh and obtain more territory um and with the like canadian big surge in like indigenous rights and a big focus and shift to, like, sort of give them land back or something?

I'm not exactly clear on what the Canadian stance is on that. Oh, just, like, I mean, we have a big movement from indigenous populations to... They seem very, like, dichotomic. Well, there's so many different bands and tribes and different types of nations. Like, we have unceded territory, and the dynamics with which the government is supposed to deal with and has agreed to deal with and actually does deal with them is all vastly different. But, yeah, that that idea of this focus on these particular issues like indigenous issues, even our attempts to, you know, have a greener economy, you know, for a place that for a long time still is an extraction economy.

Yes. How does that affect the... It's an oil company with health care. It's more like extremist far-right groups who want to move out that way for the purpose of organizing, and you also have the indigenous focus within the liberal government. So how do those two groups, do you think, interact? The general conception is that the push for indigenous rights,

especially on the farther right, is for the disenfranchisement of white Europeans. And then you do have this Western exodus, where we have very popular figures who are moving further west because there are these stronger ideas of sovereignty. I forget what

exactly it was polling, but when the Western exit, or Wexit movement started, you know, there was a significant amount of popular, or at least like not strong support, but like existing support. There was a large amount of support.

Yeah, absolutely. It'll be interesting to see what happens though, talking about collapse like, you know, in these small towns, in like cloistered communities. You know, they already feel cut off from the government and not represented. And if you have a breakdown of infrastructure,

that'll create, why do we even have them in the first place if they're not helping us? Exactly. Which is true. Which is a real thing to think about. But their solutions are wildly different than the actual solutions to help people. And we've already seen how this plays out in the past as well.

With places where the infrastructure starts to break down and then people who have weapons kind of become the authority just based on the fact that they have more power yeah i yeah so one of the things that i follow is a lot of kind of like the more let's characterize it as as boomer-esque conspiracy theories um especially with anti-vax anti-public health measures type thing um and one of the things that that that really is noticeable to me is how much more sovereign citizen stuff is creeping up into those areas. And especially, you know, there are two really big examples of, you know,

if there's an anti-vax protest in your city, it's probably one of these two networks that both come from Europe that I'm not going to name right now. And those two networks also, you know, love to organize over the messaging app Telegram. And Telegram is... Tell me if I'm stepping in an Emmy. Telegram is where so much of this ideology, this far-right ideology, is able to cross-mix and co-mingle. Yeah. We talk about Telegram enough in the pods.

Okay, cool. People are familiar. You haven't stepped in it yet. Keep going. Yeah. Like adjacent to stepped in it yet. Keep going. Yeah. Like adjacent to stepping in it, but it's fine. Yeah, so I mean, my biggest framework, and I talk about this a lot, is Telegram as kind of this technological embodiment of the cultic milieu because there is so, like, basically no enforcement,

close to no enforcement on Telegram. And so, you know, these more malicious actors know that, and they know that they can find an audience who is interested in, you know, opposing the mainstream conspiratorial thought in these kind of, like, boomers on Telegram and conspiracy groups. And there are, you know, malicious actors planning to go in and win these people over. And, you know, a lot of these malicious actors are younger people who don't have those resources, but they know that they can win over these people who do have resources, who own land, who have savings, to kind of, like, fund that movement.

Yeah. Oh, I was just going to say, I do think that the cultic milieu is, like, a really important heuristic for these kind of collapse scenarios, because the question of what happens when kind of infrastructure and any sort of political guidance falls away is governed a lot by that. And, like, this idea that there's, there are these ideas floating around in our society, and once people have nothing else to turn to, these malicious actors will bring this stuff in. And, yeah, to put it simply, then we're pretty fucked. And, yeah, to put it simply, then we're pretty fucked. Yeah, Telegram also has recently started to crack down on people. And because of that, you have this really interesting dichotomy of people who are saying, like, this means, liketech platforms and, like, create more, like, self-encryption and, like, I don't know, I'm trying not to step in right now.

Yeah, yeah. No, I'm with you. But to be able to speak more, like, peer-to-peer resources. And that wraps up part one of the terrorism roundtable discussion. Thanks so much for listening. You can find us at HappenHerePod and CoolZoneMedia on all of the socials. You can find me at HungryBowTie.

And you can follow a decent amount of the researchers on their podcast at Terrorism Bad, the podcast. I think it's just at Terrorism Bad, the podcast. I think it's just at Terrorism Bad. Anyway, thanks for listening to part one. Part two drops tomorrow. Stay tuned.

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